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Apple Silicon M1: A Developer's Perspective

400 points by steipete 6y ago

snazz 6y ago
Why is WindowServer using over 2 GB of RAM in the Activity Monitor screenshot? That seems absurdly high. Does it have a memory leak?
- saagarjha 6y ago
  This is how WindowServer usually is.
  - snazz 6y ago
    Really? Huh. I’ve never seen it use anywhere near that much on my Hackintosh, but I don’t have a super high-res screen or anything like that. I wonder what the difference is caused by.
  - bobbylarrybobby 6y ago
    On my 2015 15” MacBook Pro, I have about seven apps open, about half with multiple windows, and an external monitor plugged in. WindowServer is using 200MB.
    - saagarjha 6y ago
      You're probably looking at RSIZE?
- rayiner 6y ago
  MacOS stores a full frame buffer for every window (visible or not), for compositing. If I recall correctly, the frame buffers of every active window are attributed to the Window Server. That can get big when there are lots of windows, especially on a high DPI display.
  - simonh 6y ago
    Particularly in scaled display modes as well.
  - dawnerd 6y ago
    That’s also why all those single app benchmarks saying 8gb is enough are a bit silly. No one just uses one productivity app.
  - phkahler 6y ago
    A full screen at 4K is 8 megapixels or 32MB or so. I guess if they double or triple buffer each app might take 100MB or so, but you'd still have to open 10 apps to reach 1 GB.
    - rsynnott 6y ago
      I mean, what of it? 10 windows doesn’t seem like many, at all. I tend to end up with at least ten terminal windows by the end of he day, nevermind everything else.
    - bzzzt 6y ago
      10 app windows doesn't sound like a lot to me. Besides that, if you enable resolution scaling macOS renders at a higher internal resolution and lets the compositor scale it down. Try that on a 5k screen...
    - neurostimulant 6y ago
      Hmm, let me count my currently open windows at the moment.. 24 windows from 12 different apps.
  - deleted 6y ago
    [deleted]
- perardi 6y ago
  I am clocking in at 2.13GB on my 16-inch MacBook Pro.
hmottestad 6y ago
Personally can’t wait to upgrade. The point about 16GB being on the low side was nice to get confirmed. There has been a lot of conspiracy on 16GB being plenty enough, but as a developer I know that to future proof my next machine I would really like 64GB. I already have 16GB of ram on my 8 year old MacBook Pro.
- cataphract 6y ago
  64 GB is already the minimum for building big projects like V8 on 16 cores (e.g. on the 3950X)
  - aledalgrande 6y ago
    I'm curious about this, because I read some posts e.g. https://medium.com/computed-comparisons/garbage-collection-vs-automatic-reference-counting-a420bd4c7c81 https://medium.com/computed-comparisons/garbage-collection-v... that say memory management and bandwidth are so fast, you actually need a lot less memory than on Intel. Edit: not my opinion, just what I found on the internets, not sure why the downvotes if it invites discussion.
    - steipete 6y ago
      I’ve read the reports but I’m not seeing this. Normal workflow and already over 11 GB that swaps.
      - aledalgrande 6y ago
        Thanks for reporting! Bummer, for me I think I will have to wait for an M2.
      - chongli 6y ago
        I think the point is that memory bandwidth and SSD bandwidth and latency have improved so much that M1-based Macs are really fast at swapping. Combine that with compression (which macOS has done for a long time) and I could imagine iPadOS-like performance. For normal users (such as people not compiling V8), swapping may be virtually unnoticeable.
devit 6y ago
Are there CPU manuals from Apple that explain how to optimize assembly code for their CPU and document any deviations from the ARM reference architecture?
- VHRanger 6y ago
  Serious question, since I only have a little experience writing assembly: How would optimized M1 assembly differ from optimized ARM assembly in general? I imagine good ARM assembly code on a Gravitron2 or a Snapdragon chip would be similarly good on an M1 chip
  - saagarjha 6y ago
    There are always microarchitectural differences you can take advantage of, but Apple probably wants you to stick to the ISA as these things change in ways they don't want to document. Apple of course uses these things in the lower levels of their software, so if you're using their APIs you're getting this for free across OSes and CPUs.
  - cataphract 6y ago
    The costs of different operations differ between CPUs that implement the same instruction set. Compilers have costs tables for each processor family for when you target them (e.g. with -mtune)
  - rsynnott 6y ago
    Micro-architectural differences. For instance, from the 386 to Pentium 3 (and on Athlon, I believe), shifting was cheap, due to the presence of a barrel shifter. This was dropped in the P4, and suddenly shifting was quite expensive (I think, though I’m not sure, that it may actually have come back in later P4s). That’s the sort of thing compiler writers need to know about.
    - userbinator 6y ago
      The P4 was quite an anomaly[1] in the history of x86, optimised for clock speed at the expense of many other things. All the subsequent generations went back to the norm, with the exception of the Atom series, and even that one is not as unusual as the P4. [1] Even the family/model/stepping designation has an oddity: the 486 was family 4, the Pentium was family 5, and then everything from the Pentium II/III up to the latest Core series, as well as the Atoms, uses family 6; but the P4 was family 15.
sesuximo 6y ago
I guess Rosetta can’t handle anything that jits. Edit: this is totally wrong. see thread.
- ViralBShah 6y ago
  It has been reported that Julia runs just fine under Rosetta. https://github.com/JuliaLang/julia/issues/36617#issuecomment-729351025 https://github.com/JuliaLang/julia/issues/36617#issuecomment...
  - sesuximo 6y ago
    Wow that’s pretty cool. I also found https://developer.apple.com/documentation/apple_silicon/about_the_rosetta_translation_environment https://developer.apple.com/documentation/apple_silicon/abou... which explicitly says Rosetta can handle jit. I wonder how it does that? It must emulate the jitted x86 instructions...
    - sesuximo 6y ago
      Edit: apparently it translates instructions when they are marked executable (based on speculation on HN)
- viktorcode 6y ago
  Ahead of time translation is merely an optimisation trick. It still is an emulator.
  - The_Colonel 6y ago
    Yeah, I think better question is what's the performance penalty of JIT on Rosetta 2.
  - sesuximo 6y ago
    Is this really true? I thought Rosetta translated x86 to arm Tried looking for docs but didn’t find anything decisive either way
woahAcademia 6y ago
Dev here, the burden of Apple far exceeds any claimed time savings. I think every dev knows exactly what I'm talking about. And if you aren't a dev, Apple treats us like replaceable Dogs. Apple has killed any good will among nerdy developers by treating them like shit for 20 years. Sure there are still corporate developers that are forced to make iOS apps, but it's not like a hobbyist is going to buy an Apple computer for embedded, web dev, gaming, PC applications, etc... Until Apple treats us(and maybe their non dev customers) better, I don't see any reason outside iOS Apps to ever buy a macbook for dev.
- friedman23 6y ago
  > Dev here, the burden of Apple far exceeds any claimed time savings. I have the complete opposite experience. I don't feel any burden from apple when using a mac. MacOS being a unix like operating system makes developing on it a breeze. On windows i need to use archaic developer tools like powershell. Linux commands I use on my production servers don't work on my development environment. If I want to use git in a sane manner from the command line i need to install an emulator that has its own issues. There is a reason almost all companies in silicon valley use macbooks for their developers. > but it's not like a hobbyist is going to buy an Apple computer for embedded, web dev, gaming, PC applications, etc... As someone else has said, this is exactly what people seem to be doing.
  - sidpatil 6y ago
    > On windows i need to use archaic developer tools like powershell. What makes PowerShell archaic, in your opinion?
    - friedman23 6y ago
      It's not bash. It's proprietary garbage. It's not what I'm going to be using on my production servers. Why it exists? I have no clue.
      - pjmlp 6y ago
aledalgrande 6y ago
I thought a lot of stuff didn't work with Homebrew? https://github.com/Homebrew/brew/issues/7857 https://github.com/Homebrew/brew/issues/7857 How do you run the command line tools through Rosetta once they are installed?
- steipete 6y ago
  You can use arch -x86_64 and install the Intel versions. Small perf overhead but not really noticable.
  - aledalgrande 6y ago
    Does MacOS auto detect that they are x86 binaries and run them through Rosetta automatically after installing?
    - saagarjha 6y ago
      Yes.
  - danieldk 6y ago
    Unless you use anything that does JIT compilation (e.g. JVM), e.g. JetBrains IDEs are really slow onder Rosetta. Another pain point is code that relies heavily on SIMD. AVX/AVX2/AVX-512 instructions are not translated, so in those cases you'll be using slower kernels. My machine learned models are ~10 times slower with libtorch under Rosetta. Though they are competitive when compiling libtorch natively. (Source: I have used an M1 Air for a week, but decided to return it.)
    - neurostimulant 6y ago
      Does this mean python performance is finally competitive with those fancy JIT languages now?
      - saagarjha 6y ago
dukeofdoom 6y ago
Thinking of buying the mac air laptop, will my Python 2.6 and Django project run on this?
- woahAcademia 6y ago
  Depends on your libraries. Also I'd highly recommend coming up with specifications for your computer you want. Don't just buy brands because you've seen them on tv.
- CharlesW 6y ago
  A Google search suggests "yes". It's worth noting that Apple has a 14 day return policy, and on the rare occasions I've used it it's been hassle-free.
- ehutch79 6y ago
  You should really think about porting the python 3. It's not actually that bad unless you heavily use something that changed. I ported a major django project last year and it wasn't a major problem or time sink.
fartcannon 6y ago
All these developers are wasting time and money to help support a company that is actively working to lock down personal computers. Think about the future where a new developer needs to pay a license fee, and have their software reviewed just to show his friends.
- Razengan 6y ago
  It’s no different than consoles, and many users and developers are okay with it. For those who are not, there are other options. Why is that so difficult?
  - boudewijnrempt 6y ago
    "there are other options." Until the day when there aren't other options -- which isn't so difficult to understand, really.
    - acdc4life 6y ago
      Slippery slope, with all evidence pointing to the contrary. Apple will never have a monopoly, linux will always be an alternative.
      - makapuf 6y ago
        Not on apple hardware however.
        rbrtl 6y ago
        So... don't buy it? Unless you think it's the best hardware on the market at the best price point. And what makes you so important that every hardware provider has to bend to your will? I can't run Shor's Algorithm on my Raspberry Pi, whose fault is that?
    - Razengan 6y ago
      Alright. How will there be no other options one day?
__jem 6y ago
I've been disappointed in Apple's hardware offerings for developers over the past few years and almost swore them off, but have a renewed interest in this machine. However, it's not because of anything Apple's done in particular, but because I'm in the process of fully transitioning my workflow to the cloud, and using a laptop only as a thin client. Of course, there will always be a need for running dev toolchains locally, but I wonder how many other people are like me who would rather use Linux over an internet connection, and really only need a terminal emulator and an IDE.
- neurostimulant 6y ago
  There is probably plenty of people like us that do this. VS Code remote development feature is quite popular which indicates many people are going with this setup.
- rbrtl 6y ago
  Why don't you buy an iPad and run a terminal/VNC app?
  - __jem 6y ago
    I’ve thought about it! The keyboard is too important for me, and still being able to checkout source code locally and run a local ide tips it in the favor of laptops.
    - rbrtl 6y ago
      I have heard really good things about the keyboards for the iPads. I’m still using an iPad Air 2 with a Logitech Bluetooth keyboard which works wonders. There are code editing apps for iOS, but I don’t know what they're capable of these days. Some use cloud servers, but as soon as you know you want the option then the laptop is probably the way to go. Happy hunting!
    - pfranz 6y ago
      Assuming you prefer Apple's keyboards, I'm pretty sure the Magic Keyboard with Bluetooth works with iPads. The downside is you'd have to manage charging the keyboard and the iPad, but on the bright side you could choose to get the keyboard with the numeric keypad.
qz2 6y ago
I have a different perspective. I do all my development remotely if I can now in cloud VMs. I know that doesn’t apply to some classes of development but it’s a hell of a lot less painful isolating it and having snapshots available when inevitably you break something. The amount of hours I’ve lost due to an OS upgrade or dev tool chain upgrade breaking each other is huge so I keep them well apart. Thus I’ve been using an 8gb M1 Mac mini doing this for a week now and haven’t had any problems. It makes a very nice terminal computer with luxury desktop. When a suitable 27” approx iMac appears with an M-series CPU in it, I will buy one. It’s nice being able to triple swipe between a Mac desktop with native apps, a desktop full of terminals to Linux VMs and a windows desktop machine via RDP transparently!
- burnthrow 6y ago
  Your perspective "I use all machines as thin clients" is kind of pointless in a hardware discussion.
  - qz2 6y ago
    It’s not really because the hardware is quieter, faster and cooler than the old i3 Mac mini I was using. That has a direct benefit to the end user, not just on sheer local grunt. On the dev front it means it gets out of your way and stays out of your way.
CalChris 6y ago
Homebrew is still a work in progress for Big Sur, let alone M1, and brew upgrade on an x86 Mac will give you this message: Warning: You are using macOS 11.0. We do not provide support for this released but not yet supported version. You will encounter build failures with some formulae. Please create pull requests instead of asking for help on Homebrew's GitHub, Twitter or any other official channels. You are responsible for resolving any issues you experience while you are running this released but not yet supported version.
- steipete 6y ago
  It works surprisingly well though, been using it since the early betas.
  - gbil 6y ago
    that was the same with catalina when it first came out, same warning so I don't think this will be an issue indeed, also in catalina it worked fine regardless of the warning
  - CalChris 6y ago
    Well, I did have one problem when I upgraded homebrew on Big Sur. For some reason I got the `brew link unbound` returns `/usr/local/sbin is not writable` error. I looked on Ask Different and found (for an earlier version of OSX) this [1] Basically, mkdir the directory. [1] https://apple.stackexchange.com/questions/312330/brew-link-unbound-returns-usr-local-sbin-is-not-writable-error https://apple.stackexchange.com/questions/312330/brew-link-u...
- mlindner 6y ago
  So just bypass Homebrew and install your own stuff. It's not that hard. Homebrew isn't at all required, it's just a convenient tool that slightly simplifies some things.
  - pilif 6y ago
    Those things are very much worth simplifying: as more and more packages are starting to rely on pkgconfig, getting the headers recognized that ship with whatever SDK you are currently using (Xcode, command line tools) is very tricky and sometimes requires patching the build tools. Homebrew is the perfect glue between the traditional Unix world and the somewhat unexpected Unix environment that macOS is providing these days (mostly a consequence of Xcode wanting to be a self-contained .app and /usr being read-only while still honoring the tradition of leaving /usr/local alone for you as a user)
Shivetya 6y ago
Software is going to be a big sticking point for this platform and it may be more difficult outside of the professional software to bring along types of software. Apple cedes a lot of sales by not attempting to bring into their fold all the gaming companies. Just looking at Steam alone shows the disparity and there is a lot of money to be had. The idea of just own two systems is one that not everyone can justify.
- viktorcode 6y ago
  Apple runs the biggest gaming store (in terms of revenues)
CyberRabbi 6y ago
This is the computer experience I’ve waited my entire life for. I’ve been working on this thing for a week straight (I’ve literally been awake 24 hours a day for 7 days) and it’s still at 99% battery life. Black. Magic. Fuckery.
- andrewnicolalde 6y ago
  Something tells me your computer is plugged in ;)
- vinteruggla 6y ago
  So is it true that the components might degrade faster on this machine because of heat - the fact that it is without a fan?
  - CyberRabbi 6y ago
    No this thing literally emits zero heat
    - saagarjha 6y ago
      Meanwhile your comments seem to just be hot air ;)
      - CyberRabbi 6y ago
        If you had an M1 you’d understand
    - mhh__ 6y ago
      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Landauer%27s_principle https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Landauer%27s_principle There's a Nobel Prize in there somewhere, get cracking
      - CyberRabbi 6y ago
        Yes the M1 is revolutionary and Apple definitely deserves a Nobel for all the innovations they’ve done to deliver this industry-changing technology.
tomduncalf 6y ago
The performance of these is very impressive - selfishly, I'm glad to read that the 16" is still faster for Xcode tasks (as I have the same spec as Pete and some of the commentary about the speed of the new models was making me a bit envious!), but I have no doubt the Pro models of these will be remarkably performant. Personally I will try to wait it out until they release a new design... although may end up with a Mac Mini build machine
pcr910303 6y ago
Wow, HN is so much strict to Apple. I'm already seeing 4 ~ 5 top level comments on how Apple "locks down" computers and they are "taking our freedom"... Apple have stated multiple times that they don't have any intention to lock down macOS more or less - I can't really think why anyone would think Apple would lock down macOS. There's... really no reason right? My gut feeling is that there are a lot of people that don't like Apple, mostly due to their proprietary nature, and they just... argue against Apple. Before the M1 appeared, the argument was that Apple's Macs are expensive for nothing, they have terrible hardware, Touch Bar is bad, software quality has declined, etc... and now it's all about the user's freedom. Seriously people. This article is about using dev tools on the M1 Mac. Let's not start arguing about how Apple is bad for freedom, etc.
- breakfastduck 6y ago
  Yeah it's unusual. Generally it's people who aren't even invested in the ecosystem anyway. They've said this stuff for years, I can't do anything less on Big Sur than I've been able to do on any mac.
- _dibly 6y ago
  I don't see how that's any different from Microsoft, Amazon, or any other major tech company that makes the front page of HN. In fact the only difference I can think of is that there's always some degree of reactionary discourse when Apple is mentioned by people who feel the need to defend the company personally. You never see this type of comment on a thread full of people complaining about Windows or AWS, but you almost always see it when there are a few comments critical of Apple.
  - sgerenser 6y ago
    If you really want to see “reactionary discourse” check out any article critical of Tesla.
    - mlindner 6y ago
      Historically the attacks against Tesla have only been matched by the ferocity of political attack ads. So a lot of fans of Tesla get very defensive about them.
mlthoughts2018 6y ago
What an odd article. It spends several paragraphs describing nightmarish compatibility issues and lack of support or capability for various mainstream tools, but seems to have a completely unjustified and wildly optimistic point of view that all the problems are just short term transitional annoyances that will be fixed in Q1 2021 or shortly thereafter. It concludes M1 is worth the hype. What a bizarre perspective with nothing to support it except apparently blind optimism.
- tosh 6y ago
  optimism might be justified: there are updates for apps coming out basically every day atm
- macintux 6y ago
  Well, there’s also Apple’s success rate at pulling off transitions like this, and the fact that their developer partners know they have to either make the transition or abandon the platform. Unlike Microsoft dipping its toes into the ARM waters, everyone knows Apple is committed to this.
  - totalZero 6y ago
    Apple pulled off a similar transition once in recent history (the other examples are so antiquated that they teach us little about the present hardware industry), and that was a move toward the rest of the personal computing market --- not away. This is a step toward mobile/iOS. Apple isn't the same underdog that it was when PowerPC was put to bed, and the transition is challenging because the Mac platform is bifurcated in the interim. PowerPC to Intel isn't a good proxy for this because the technology is different, the transition strategy is different, and the company itself is different. If the M1 transition is to be smooth, it has to achieve that on its own merits, without looking back in search of comparable transitions past.
    - macintux 6y ago
      The complaints raised in this article are mostly irrelevant to the typical consumer. Rosetta 2, from all reports, works well enough that I’d argue they’ve already succeeded in making the transition smooth enough to call it a success. The main non-developer concern raised in this piece is extraneous dialog messages, which sadly we’ve pretty well all been trained to ignore. I agree they’re unfortunate, but they’re hardly a show-stopper. The real risks Apple faces, as far as I can see: * Will developers do the needful for universal apps? That seems to be well underway, even among the giants. * Will a lack of x86-64 Windows emulation prove to be a deal-breaker for too many users? I’d say that’s impossible to know, but I’m optimistic. (And if Apple once again is setting a trend for the industry, Windows itself may fully make this transition someday.) * Will Apple be able to keep up with AMD and Intel in the chip race? Obviously early signs are promising. Big risks, but mostly ones Apple can control, or at least influence. What other dangers am I missing? Adding: the dependence on TSMC is obviously a risk, but I imagine Apple has some notion of what they can do if they lose that option.
bcit-cst 6y ago
I still can't decide. I am wanting to get into ios development after 10 years. which computer should I go for. What is opinion on these m1 machines longevity. Some tech people are comparing it to first gen iPad.Like they will be sunset after a couple of years vs 2nd gen which are supported much longer. but I am not so sure most of the issues with these first gen m1 machines are software so in theory they should be supported for long time.
- emp 6y ago
  You will be inside of Xcode for most of your time - I just upgraded to a 13" Air (maxed out configuration) from my 2012 11" Macbook Air which was still fine with Xcode. I think any Mac will run Xcode well enough.
- lmedinas 6y ago
  I have the new MBP and I can tell you its a remarkable machine. Of course you need to check which SW you need to run and if it works (I assume it will). I guess everything else, native versions, will come with time.
- pfranz 6y ago
  Apple still plans on releasing new Intel macs. I don't even think buying one of those is out of the question for some people. If you look back at the Intel transition, if I remember correctly they released the MacBook Pro with a Core Duo in January of 2006 and Core 2 Duo in October. The latter being 64-bit. Sure, the latter ones were better, but the former ones worked fine. OS support seems to go with architecture generations. The early 2006 laptops supported Snow Leopard which had its last release in 2011. The next laptops supported Lion which had its last release in 2012 (but with hacks could get updated until 2018). I think the major question is if you want to wait to see what the "pro" machines look like or if Apple has tweaks in 6 months to the current line up. The Mac Pro has some big questions about what may need to change if they're looking for parity with the current Mac Pro (improved multi-monitor support, more RAM options, upgradable GPUs). Those changes may show up in the high end Macbook Pros (likely not upgradable GPUs).
- kalleboo 6y ago
cma 6y ago
Interesting that Java "write-once, run anywhere" stuff ends up being the slowest due to having to run through emulation if it interfaced with native code (native compiled code: fast; java jit for the right arch: fast; java jit for the wrong arch due to old native integration: super slow).
- saagarjha 6y ago
  A server JDK running under Rosetta is actually not too bad, performance-wise.
izacus 6y ago
> Xcode runs FAST on the M1. Compiling the PSPDFKit PDF SDK (debug, arm64) can almost compete with the fastest Intel-based MacBook Pro Apple offers to date, with 8:49 min vs 7:31 min. For comparison, my Hackintosh builds the same in less than 5 minutes. This is telling just about how unrealistic Geekbench benchmarks, used by most reviewers, really are - they were all forecasting M1 completely humiliating everything from Intel and yet in practice it's not quite right. It's a dang impressive chip still though.
- dschu 6y ago
  Yeah, but the MBA is doing all that with just 10W (15W burst), while your hackintosh most likely consumes 400W. Not really comparable though.
  - ianhowson 6y ago
    I'm happy to pay for the electricity if I get faster builds. My daily driver is a Hackintosh and with the CPUs pegged pulls about 70W from the wall. The two displays add another 90W. M1 is impressively efficient but there's still a gap for fast, no-compromise workstations.
    - kevindong 6y ago
      On a desktop, power consumption doesn't really matter. But on a laptop, it matters a ton. Personally I prefer doing work from my couch rather than my desk; ergonomics and external monitors be damned.
      - jmnicolas 6y ago
        I don't know how old are you but you might regret that later. Around 40 years old is usually when you start to pay for carelessness with your body. Ask me how I know ...
        bori5 6y ago
Darmody 6y ago
It saddens me to see devs locking themselves in Apple's golden jail.
the_only_law 6y ago
Not sure why people are so worried about developers getting trapped by locked down systems. I have plenty of other PC’s, running Linux, *BSD, Windows much less locked down. I’m very aware Apple is controlling of their platforms. No I’m not thrilled about certain aspects of the M1 platforms, but most platforms I’ve used feel locked down in some shape or form. If, in the case Apple tries some of the outlandish theories out there, I’ll simply cease to use it and probably trash Apple then as it will be useless to me, but I’m not locked into anything.
- amelius 6y ago
  > If, in the case Apple tries some of the outlandish theories out there, I’ll simply cease to use it and probably trash Apple then as it will be useless to me, but I’m not locked into anything. And what if it is too late? E.g. Apple owning the entire space you want to develop apps for? Or, if this seems an impossible theory to you, how about competitors copying Apple's model? Please understand that as a consumer you have power, but if you don't use it you can end up like the proverbial boiled frog.
  - RONROC 6y ago
    I can understand this level of pearl-clutching when we’re talking about social media, but I just don’t see Apple as the five-alarm fire it’s made out to be. Practically speaking being “locked” into a system would only be a possibility in a world where highly distributed, massively supported OS’s (Windows, Linux) didn’t exist. Anti-apple people have a hard time fathoming the degree to which many other “power users” are okay with privacy/security trade offs if it results in a more robust/stable environment that just works. Problem is, it’s being framed as some sort of Faustian bargain when it’s really not that big of a deal.
    - skulk 6y ago
      > that just works Until it doesn't. I can open my Thinkpad (W530) and replace parts in it that die. Can you say the same for your Macbook? Are you okay with a future where everyone follows Apple's example because it generates more profits, where right-to-repair is a thing of the past? I know that sounds alarmist, but it's definitely the trajectory I see.
gst 6y ago
> IntelliJ is working on porting the JetBrains Runtime to Apple Silicon. The apps currently work through Rosetta 2, however building via Gradle is extremely slow. Gradle creates code at runtime, which seems a particular bad combination with the Rosetta 2 ahead-of-time translation logic. Java does not need to be run through emulation. Azul already published ARM64 Zulu builds for OpenJDK (here: https://www.azul.com/downloads/zulu-community/?package=jdk https://www.azul.com/downloads/zulu-community/?package=jdk) and they work great on the M1. I'm currently using IntelliJ running in emulation mode (an official release for the M1 was originally expected by the end of November) and but build/run my projects on a local Zulu JVM with ARM64 support.
amelius 6y ago
Was this a fully parallel build (using all cores)?
X-Istence 6y ago
I'm a developer as well and don't use apps like VSCode, or Java/Gradle... but instead develop open source projects running Python, and Rust. 1. For my open source projects, running tests has sped up so much that I find it more of a joy to work on this projects now. Test suites that take ~60 seconds on my 2017 MacBook Pro i7, now take just ~15 seconds. That's a HUGE win in the edit, run test suite cycle. 2. My Rust projects now compile in WAY less time. Something that used to take 3 minutes to compile + link for a debug build is now down to 40 seconds. Once again, this has increased my productivity in the edit, compile, test cycle. For other projects like node/npm the speedups are also massive and running various pipelines to go from source code to final deployable object is also much faster. I use vim to develop, and it runs on Rosetta just fine, so I can continue to use all my existing plugins. I don't extensively use docker containers, but for those I connect to the cloud instead of running them locally, which is a move I was already making even on my Intel based MacBook Pro. I got the 16GB 13" MacBook Pro. I, like the blog author, was thinking of this as a secondary laptop, something fun to have around, but I have hardly touched my old 15" MacBook Pro because this one does everything I already need. And does it faster. I've been living with 16GB of RAM forever, so maybe I am used to fitting in that memory space... I avoid Electron based apps like the plague, and with being able to run iPad/iOS apps on the M1, I've been able to cut down even further since things like Authy are way faster to launch when they aren't large Chrome based hogs. I am looking forward to the 16" MacBook Pro's with Apple Silicon based processors, but only because I do miss the additional screen real-estate, and prefer the larger size. But the 13" MacBook Pro M1 has been absolutely fantastic so far.
- raverbashing 6y ago
  Good to know I'm glad Vim is running fine on Rosetta, still, if you wanted to compile it from source, it really shouldn't be too hard. (Rust is a harder problem, so I wouldn't worry too much, still, once the dependencies are downloaded and compiled it's usually fine)
  - saagarjha 6y ago
    No need to use Rosetta: $ file `which vim` /usr/bin/vim: Mach-O universal binary with 2 architectures: [x86_64:Mach-O 64-bit executable x86_64] [arm64e] /usr/bin/vim (for architecture x86_64): Mach-O 64-bit executable x86_64 /usr/bin/vim (for architecture arm64e): Mach-O 64-bit executable arm64e
peter303 6y ago
Ah, beta testing new M1 software
safetyscissors 6y ago
I am a iOS developer and I have an M1. There are some issues that need to be ironed out with some packages that I use not compiling for some reason on the arm iOS simulator, but that has diverted me to compiling on device which isn't much of a hassle. I am not bothered as much by the 16gb of ram, it is still rather usable. What I really bought the machine for was the battery life. I've had it for a day or two and it is amazing how long I can stay away from my power socket. Also this thing runs really cool. I have not even heard the fans spin up once, even during the recent Sydney heatwave (45°C).
6gvONxR4sf7o 6y ago
Seems like a cool device. It’s too bad that apparently you need weird workarounds for more than one external monitor for the M1 MacBooks, which is my own personal dealbreaker.
lmedinas 6y ago
I don't get this blog, neither what's the point !? The author lists several bugs, instead of posting the issue number with a link, he puts his Tweet with the bug numbers (without link). Im not sure what the author is trying to accomplish here. Also I guess these kind of bugs, although not nice, they are mostly because MacOS suffered the biggest change since its history and supporting 2 completely different architectures is not an easy job. Of course we are at the mercy of Apple to fix them but this is part of the deal when you buy such a machine at this point. Then all other points are just showing all the known the same issues that some commercial SW was not yet ported to a new architecture.
deleted 6y ago
[deleted]
cyrksoft 6y ago
I travel and move around a lot (not so much now, but I still move around my country and to the office), so portability is very important to me. Another advantage of the MacBook line is that I can carry one Anker USB-C & A charger and charge everything I have. I was looking into buying the new MacBook Air. Anybody has any particular alternative to recommend? I am looking for a new laptop and haven't found anything similar to the MacBook Air (I hate the touchbar) for a similar price (the 16GB of RAM model, if expandable better). Anything similar is either a lot more expensive or the build quality is a lot worse. Any recommendation is more than welcomed!
mlazos 6y ago
I was confused why it’s hard to get a license for windows 10 on ARM. Doesn't Windows 10 already support ARM?
- simonh 6y ago
  Microsoft sold some Surface devices with ARM Windows 10, but they have never sold it as a standalone installable SKU for use on third party devices.
  - mlazos 6y ago
    https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/uwp/porting/apps-on-arm https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/uwp/porting/apps-on... This says you can run it on arm with fall creators update or newer.
    - izacus 6y ago
      That doesn't mean Microsoft will give you the installer for ARM Windows so you can use it on anything but Surface X.
      - my123 6y ago
        Beta downloads are available at: https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/software-download/windowsinsiderpreviewARM64 https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/software-download/windowsins...
throwaway4good 6y ago
Most developers I know use already a mac. It is a faster system for similar hardware (maybe due to the filesystem or something) and its Unix insides support development work better than Windows. M1 is just going to make macs even more dominant. And AMD is not going to rescue Windows/Intel. These night and day improvements are simply too big to be explained by TSMC being a better fab than Intel.
- hu3 6y ago
  https://insights.stackoverflow.com/survey/2020#technology-platforms https://insights.stackoverflow.com/survey/2020#technology-pl... - Linux 55% - Windows 53% ... - MacOS 24% "Linux and Windows maintain the top spots for most popular platforms, with over half of the respondents reporting that they have done development work with them this year. We also see some year over year growth in the popularity of container technologies such as Docker and Kubernetes."
  - scq 6y ago
    That's for target OSes - developer OSes look like this: https://insights.stackoverflow.com/survey/2020#technology-developers-primary-operating-systems https://insights.stackoverflow.com/survey/2020#technology-de... - Windows 45.8% - macOS 27.5% - Linux 26.6% But still, macOS users represent only around a quarter of developers.
    - hu3 6y ago
      Ahh thanks for clarifying. Somehow I missed that section which is more pertinent to the topic.
    - samatman 6y ago
      Which means we're looking at the question with the wrong granularity. There are sectors of the industry where Windows is a hard requirement, ones where Macs are utterly dominant, and others where Linux is assumed and running a proprietary Apple OS gets you the side-eye. Software development is a big tent.
stevegeek 6y ago
Sorry if this has already come up but apart from the excitement about performance what is the build quality like for the new MacBooks? The main issues I’ve been facing from Apple lately have been physical failures from keyboards to screens and ports. The 16” is better but already I’ve found some keyboard keys get unresponsive occasionally and reported battery health is deteriorating fast after only a handful of cycles...
- LexGray 6y ago
  Most of the complaints I have seen online are will not power on, DOA type issues. Not many yet (some review units out of box etc). Apple deems itself a consumer company and perfection is too expensive. Apple quality is generally going up every year, but slowly. Apple makes incremental improvements manufacturing nearly weekly just like software builds. I always say never buy first gen, or at least never on the first day. Never assume your machine is just going to work.
gpapilion 6y ago
I’m surprised at all the reviews talking about 16gb being enough, but with virtualization basically not excusing at this point I’m scratching my head. My current computers feel like they have enough memory until I load virtual box, or VMware.
vaccinator 6y ago
I'm starting to think that Steve Jobs was holding Apple back...
kaiwen1 6y ago
I’ve been on a new M1 since the day after release. Love it. FAR faster than my previous Mac. But there is some work left to do. It crashes every day, usually more than once. Frustrating but still very happy to have it. Just bought a second one today for my wife.
- mantap 6y ago
  What do you mean by 'crashes'?
worldmerge 6y ago
Maybe I've only focused on graphics and gaming PCs but it's really interesting to see how low spec some of your work machines are in this thread, like maybe I should write more efficient code. My desktop is using 32gb of DDR4 ram and laptop is on 16gb. When I did controlmylights.net I was using almost all of the 32gbs, maxing out the gpu /cpu. I don't normally run that heavy of a production on my system but it was nice to be able to do it (2x resource heavy OBS stream setups (Twitch/YouTube), MongoDB, Redis, NodeJS application, openFrameworks). My desktop raised the temperature of the room by at least 5 degrees F, it was a mini space heater. I definitely could have made that project in something lighter, maybe using Rust, but it's nice to have the headroom. The next performance upgrade for me will be overclocking my 8700k.
iammyIP 6y ago
calm down, since 10 years cpu speed doesn't really matter anymore, and if you aren't involved in the apple ecosystem hulahoop (or javascripting - god forbid) i think m1 is not very interesting untill it allows other oses to run on free hardware.
sally1620 6y ago
These first generations Apple Silicon Macs are really publicly available DTKs for developers. I think Apple is expecting all developers to jump and port their apps so they are ready when the high-end Apple Silicon devices hit the market.

400 points by steipete 6y ago

Why is WindowServer using over 2 GB of RAM in the Activity Monitor screenshot? That seems absurdly high. Does it have a memory leak?

saagarjha 6y ago
This is how WindowServer usually is.
- snazz 6y ago
  Really? Huh. I’ve never seen it use anywhere near that much on my Hackintosh, but I don’t have a super high-res screen or anything like that. I wonder what the difference is caused by.
- bobbylarrybobby 6y ago
  On my 2015 15” MacBook Pro, I have about seven apps open, about half with multiple windows, and an external monitor plugged in. WindowServer is using 200MB.
  - saagarjha 6y ago
    You're probably looking at RSIZE?
rayiner 6y ago
MacOS stores a full frame buffer for every window (visible or not), for compositing. If I recall correctly, the frame buffers of every active window are attributed to the Window Server. That can get big when there are lots of windows, especially on a high DPI display.
- simonh 6y ago
  Particularly in scaled display modes as well.
- dawnerd 6y ago
  That’s also why all those single app benchmarks saying 8gb is enough are a bit silly. No one just uses one productivity app.
- phkahler 6y ago
  A full screen at 4K is 8 megapixels or 32MB or so. I guess if they double or triple buffer each app might take 100MB or so, but you'd still have to open 10 apps to reach 1 GB.
  - rsynnott 6y ago
    I mean, what of it? 10 windows doesn’t seem like many, at all. I tend to end up with at least ten terminal windows by the end of he day, nevermind everything else.
  - bzzzt 6y ago
    10 app windows doesn't sound like a lot to me. Besides that, if you enable resolution scaling macOS renders at a higher internal resolution and lets the compositor scale it down. Try that on a 5k screen...
  - neurostimulant 6y ago
    Hmm, let me count my currently open windows at the moment.. 24 windows from 12 different apps.
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
perardi 6y ago
I am clocking in at 2.13GB on my 16-inch MacBook Pro.

hmottestad 6y ago

Personally can’t wait to upgrade. The point about 16GB being on the low side was nice to get confirmed. There has been a lot of conspiracy on 16GB being plenty enough, but as a developer I know that to future proof my next machine I would really like 64GB. I already have 16GB of ram on my 8 year old MacBook Pro.

cataphract 6y ago
64 GB is already the minimum for building big projects like V8 on 16 cores (e.g. on the 3950X)
- aledalgrande 6y ago
  I'm curious about this, because I read some posts e.g. https://medium.com/computed-comparisons/garbage-collection-vs-automatic-reference-counting-a420bd4c7c81 https://medium.com/computed-comparisons/garbage-collection-v... that say memory management and bandwidth are so fast, you actually need a lot less memory than on Intel. Edit: not my opinion, just what I found on the internets, not sure why the downvotes if it invites discussion.
  - steipete 6y ago
    I’ve read the reports but I’m not seeing this. Normal workflow and already over 11 GB that swaps.
    - aledalgrande 6y ago
      Thanks for reporting! Bummer, for me I think I will have to wait for an M2.
    - chongli 6y ago
      I think the point is that memory bandwidth and SSD bandwidth and latency have improved so much that M1-based Macs are really fast at swapping. Combine that with compression (which macOS has done for a long time) and I could imagine iPadOS-like performance. For normal users (such as people not compiling V8), swapping may be virtually unnoticeable.

devit 6y ago

Are there CPU manuals from Apple that explain how to optimize assembly code for their CPU and document any deviations from the ARM reference architecture?

VHRanger 6y ago
Serious question, since I only have a little experience writing assembly: How would optimized M1 assembly differ from optimized ARM assembly in general? I imagine good ARM assembly code on a Gravitron2 or a Snapdragon chip would be similarly good on an M1 chip
- saagarjha 6y ago
  There are always microarchitectural differences you can take advantage of, but Apple probably wants you to stick to the ISA as these things change in ways they don't want to document. Apple of course uses these things in the lower levels of their software, so if you're using their APIs you're getting this for free across OSes and CPUs.
- cataphract 6y ago
  The costs of different operations differ between CPUs that implement the same instruction set. Compilers have costs tables for each processor family for when you target them (e.g. with -mtune)
- rsynnott 6y ago
  Micro-architectural differences. For instance, from the 386 to Pentium 3 (and on Athlon, I believe), shifting was cheap, due to the presence of a barrel shifter. This was dropped in the P4, and suddenly shifting was quite expensive (I think, though I’m not sure, that it may actually have come back in later P4s). That’s the sort of thing compiler writers need to know about.
  - userbinator 6y ago
    The P4 was quite an anomaly[1] in the history of x86, optimised for clock speed at the expense of many other things. All the subsequent generations went back to the norm, with the exception of the Atom series, and even that one is not as unusual as the P4. [1] Even the family/model/stepping designation has an oddity: the 486 was family 4, the Pentium was family 5, and then everything from the Pentium II/III up to the latest Core series, as well as the Atoms, uses family 6; but the P4 was family 15.

sesuximo 6y ago

I guess Rosetta can’t handle anything that jits. Edit: this is totally wrong. see thread.

ViralBShah 6y ago
It has been reported that Julia runs just fine under Rosetta. https://github.com/JuliaLang/julia/issues/36617#issuecomment-729351025 https://github.com/JuliaLang/julia/issues/36617#issuecomment...
- sesuximo 6y ago
  Wow that’s pretty cool. I also found https://developer.apple.com/documentation/apple_silicon/about_the_rosetta_translation_environment https://developer.apple.com/documentation/apple_silicon/abou... which explicitly says Rosetta can handle jit. I wonder how it does that? It must emulate the jitted x86 instructions...
  - sesuximo 6y ago
    Edit: apparently it translates instructions when they are marked executable (based on speculation on HN)
viktorcode 6y ago
Ahead of time translation is merely an optimisation trick. It still is an emulator.
- The_Colonel 6y ago
  Yeah, I think better question is what's the performance penalty of JIT on Rosetta 2.
- sesuximo 6y ago
  Is this really true? I thought Rosetta translated x86 to arm Tried looking for docs but didn’t find anything decisive either way

woahAcademia 6y ago

Dev here, the burden of Apple far exceeds any claimed time savings. I think every dev knows exactly what I'm talking about. And if you aren't a dev, Apple treats us like replaceable Dogs. Apple has killed any good will among nerdy developers by treating them like shit for 20 years. Sure there are still corporate developers that are forced to make iOS apps, but it's not like a hobbyist is going to buy an Apple computer for embedded, web dev, gaming, PC applications, etc... Until Apple treats us(and maybe their non dev customers) better, I don't see any reason outside iOS Apps to ever buy a macbook for dev.

friedman23 6y ago
> Dev here, the burden of Apple far exceeds any claimed time savings. I have the complete opposite experience. I don't feel any burden from apple when using a mac. MacOS being a unix like operating system makes developing on it a breeze. On windows i need to use archaic developer tools like powershell. Linux commands I use on my production servers don't work on my development environment. If I want to use git in a sane manner from the command line i need to install an emulator that has its own issues. There is a reason almost all companies in silicon valley use macbooks for their developers. > but it's not like a hobbyist is going to buy an Apple computer for embedded, web dev, gaming, PC applications, etc... As someone else has said, this is exactly what people seem to be doing.
- sidpatil 6y ago
  > On windows i need to use archaic developer tools like powershell. What makes PowerShell archaic, in your opinion?
  - friedman23 6y ago
    It's not bash. It's proprietary garbage. It's not what I'm going to be using on my production servers. Why it exists? I have no clue.
    - pjmlp 6y ago

aledalgrande 6y ago

I thought a lot of stuff didn't work with Homebrew? https://github.com/Homebrew/brew/issues/7857 https://github.com/Homebrew/brew/issues/7857 How do you run the command line tools through Rosetta once they are installed?

steipete 6y ago
You can use arch -x86_64 and install the Intel versions. Small perf overhead but not really noticable.
- aledalgrande 6y ago
  Does MacOS auto detect that they are x86 binaries and run them through Rosetta automatically after installing?
  - saagarjha 6y ago
    Yes.
- danieldk 6y ago
  Unless you use anything that does JIT compilation (e.g. JVM), e.g. JetBrains IDEs are really slow onder Rosetta. Another pain point is code that relies heavily on SIMD. AVX/AVX2/AVX-512 instructions are not translated, so in those cases you'll be using slower kernels. My machine learned models are ~10 times slower with libtorch under Rosetta. Though they are competitive when compiling libtorch natively. (Source: I have used an M1 Air for a week, but decided to return it.)
  - neurostimulant 6y ago
    Does this mean python performance is finally competitive with those fancy JIT languages now?
    - saagarjha 6y ago

dukeofdoom 6y ago

Thinking of buying the mac air laptop, will my Python 2.6 and Django project run on this?

woahAcademia 6y ago
Depends on your libraries. Also I'd highly recommend coming up with specifications for your computer you want. Don't just buy brands because you've seen them on tv.
CharlesW 6y ago
A Google search suggests "yes". It's worth noting that Apple has a 14 day return policy, and on the rare occasions I've used it it's been hassle-free.
ehutch79 6y ago
You should really think about porting the python 3. It's not actually that bad unless you heavily use something that changed. I ported a major django project last year and it wasn't a major problem or time sink.

fartcannon 6y ago

All these developers are wasting time and money to help support a company that is actively working to lock down personal computers. Think about the future where a new developer needs to pay a license fee, and have their software reviewed just to show his friends.

Razengan 6y ago
It’s no different than consoles, and many users and developers are okay with it. For those who are not, there are other options. Why is that so difficult?
- boudewijnrempt 6y ago
  "there are other options." Until the day when there aren't other options -- which isn't so difficult to understand, really.
  - acdc4life 6y ago
    Slippery slope, with all evidence pointing to the contrary. Apple will never have a monopoly, linux will always be an alternative.
    - makapuf 6y ago
      Not on apple hardware however.
      - rbrtl 6y ago
        So... don't buy it? Unless you think it's the best hardware on the market at the best price point. And what makes you so important that every hardware provider has to bend to your will? I can't run Shor's Algorithm on my Raspberry Pi, whose fault is that?
  - Razengan 6y ago
    Alright. How will there be no other options one day?

__jem 6y ago

I've been disappointed in Apple's hardware offerings for developers over the past few years and almost swore them off, but have a renewed interest in this machine. However, it's not because of anything Apple's done in particular, but because I'm in the process of fully transitioning my workflow to the cloud, and using a laptop only as a thin client. Of course, there will always be a need for running dev toolchains locally, but I wonder how many other people are like me who would rather use Linux over an internet connection, and really only need a terminal emulator and an IDE.

neurostimulant 6y ago
There is probably plenty of people like us that do this. VS Code remote development feature is quite popular which indicates many people are going with this setup.
rbrtl 6y ago
Why don't you buy an iPad and run a terminal/VNC app?
- __jem 6y ago
  I’ve thought about it! The keyboard is too important for me, and still being able to checkout source code locally and run a local ide tips it in the favor of laptops.
  - rbrtl 6y ago
    I have heard really good things about the keyboards for the iPads. I’m still using an iPad Air 2 with a Logitech Bluetooth keyboard which works wonders. There are code editing apps for iOS, but I don’t know what they're capable of these days. Some use cloud servers, but as soon as you know you want the option then the laptop is probably the way to go. Happy hunting!
  - pfranz 6y ago
    Assuming you prefer Apple's keyboards, I'm pretty sure the Magic Keyboard with Bluetooth works with iPads. The downside is you'd have to manage charging the keyboard and the iPad, but on the bright side you could choose to get the keyboard with the numeric keypad.

qz2 6y ago

I have a different perspective. I do all my development remotely if I can now in cloud VMs. I know that doesn’t apply to some classes of development but it’s a hell of a lot less painful isolating it and having snapshots available when inevitably you break something. The amount of hours I’ve lost due to an OS upgrade or dev tool chain upgrade breaking each other is huge so I keep them well apart. Thus I’ve been using an 8gb M1 Mac mini doing this for a week now and haven’t had any problems. It makes a very nice terminal computer with luxury desktop. When a suitable 27” approx iMac appears with an M-series CPU in it, I will buy one. It’s nice being able to triple swipe between a Mac desktop with native apps, a desktop full of terminals to Linux VMs and a windows desktop machine via RDP transparently!

burnthrow 6y ago
Your perspective "I use all machines as thin clients" is kind of pointless in a hardware discussion.
- qz2 6y ago
  It’s not really because the hardware is quieter, faster and cooler than the old i3 Mac mini I was using. That has a direct benefit to the end user, not just on sheer local grunt. On the dev front it means it gets out of your way and stays out of your way.

CalChris 6y ago

Homebrew is still a work in progress for Big Sur, let alone M1, and brew upgrade on an x86 Mac will give you this message: Warning: You are using macOS 11.0. We do not provide support for this released but not yet supported version. You will encounter build failures with some formulae. Please create pull requests instead of asking for help on Homebrew's GitHub, Twitter or any other official channels. You are responsible for resolving any issues you experience while you are running this released but not yet supported version.

steipete 6y ago
It works surprisingly well though, been using it since the early betas.
- gbil 6y ago
  that was the same with catalina when it first came out, same warning so I don't think this will be an issue indeed, also in catalina it worked fine regardless of the warning
- CalChris 6y ago
  Well, I did have one problem when I upgraded homebrew on Big Sur. For some reason I got the `brew link unbound` returns `/usr/local/sbin is not writable` error. I looked on Ask Different and found (for an earlier version of OSX) this [1] Basically, mkdir the directory. [1] https://apple.stackexchange.com/questions/312330/brew-link-unbound-returns-usr-local-sbin-is-not-writable-error https://apple.stackexchange.com/questions/312330/brew-link-u...
mlindner 6y ago
So just bypass Homebrew and install your own stuff. It's not that hard. Homebrew isn't at all required, it's just a convenient tool that slightly simplifies some things.
- pilif 6y ago
  Those things are very much worth simplifying: as more and more packages are starting to rely on pkgconfig, getting the headers recognized that ship with whatever SDK you are currently using (Xcode, command line tools) is very tricky and sometimes requires patching the build tools. Homebrew is the perfect glue between the traditional Unix world and the somewhat unexpected Unix environment that macOS is providing these days (mostly a consequence of Xcode wanting to be a self-contained .app and /usr being read-only while still honoring the tradition of leaving /usr/local alone for you as a user)

Shivetya 6y ago

Software is going to be a big sticking point for this platform and it may be more difficult outside of the professional software to bring along types of software. Apple cedes a lot of sales by not attempting to bring into their fold all the gaming companies. Just looking at Steam alone shows the disparity and there is a lot of money to be had. The idea of just own two systems is one that not everyone can justify.

viktorcode 6y ago
Apple runs the biggest gaming store (in terms of revenues)

CyberRabbi 6y ago

This is the computer experience I’ve waited my entire life for. I’ve been working on this thing for a week straight (I’ve literally been awake 24 hours a day for 7 days) and it’s still at 99% battery life. Black. Magic. Fuckery.

andrewnicolalde 6y ago
Something tells me your computer is plugged in ;)
vinteruggla 6y ago
So is it true that the components might degrade faster on this machine because of heat - the fact that it is without a fan?
- CyberRabbi 6y ago
  No this thing literally emits zero heat
  - saagarjha 6y ago
    Meanwhile your comments seem to just be hot air ;)
    - CyberRabbi 6y ago
      If you had an M1 you’d understand
  - mhh__ 6y ago
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Landauer%27s_principle https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Landauer%27s_principle There's a Nobel Prize in there somewhere, get cracking
    - CyberRabbi 6y ago
      Yes the M1 is revolutionary and Apple definitely deserves a Nobel for all the innovations they’ve done to deliver this industry-changing technology.

tomduncalf 6y ago

The performance of these is very impressive - selfishly, I'm glad to read that the 16" is still faster for Xcode tasks (as I have the same spec as Pete and some of the commentary about the speed of the new models was making me a bit envious!), but I have no doubt the Pro models of these will be remarkably performant. Personally I will try to wait it out until they release a new design... although may end up with a Mac Mini build machine

pcr910303 6y ago

Wow, HN is so much strict to Apple. I'm already seeing 4 ~ 5 top level comments on how Apple "locks down" computers and they are "taking our freedom"... Apple have stated multiple times that they don't have any intention to lock down macOS more or less - I can't really think why anyone would think Apple would lock down macOS. There's... really no reason right? My gut feeling is that there are a lot of people that don't like Apple, mostly due to their proprietary nature, and they just... argue against Apple. Before the M1 appeared, the argument was that Apple's Macs are expensive for nothing, they have terrible hardware, Touch Bar is bad, software quality has declined, etc... and now it's all about the user's freedom. Seriously people. This article is about using dev tools on the M1 Mac. Let's not start arguing about how Apple is bad for freedom, etc.

breakfastduck 6y ago
Yeah it's unusual. Generally it's people who aren't even invested in the ecosystem anyway. They've said this stuff for years, I can't do anything less on Big Sur than I've been able to do on any mac.
_dibly 6y ago
I don't see how that's any different from Microsoft, Amazon, or any other major tech company that makes the front page of HN. In fact the only difference I can think of is that there's always some degree of reactionary discourse when Apple is mentioned by people who feel the need to defend the company personally. You never see this type of comment on a thread full of people complaining about Windows or AWS, but you almost always see it when there are a few comments critical of Apple.
- sgerenser 6y ago
  If you really want to see “reactionary discourse” check out any article critical of Tesla.
  - mlindner 6y ago
    Historically the attacks against Tesla have only been matched by the ferocity of political attack ads. So a lot of fans of Tesla get very defensive about them.

mlthoughts2018 6y ago

What an odd article. It spends several paragraphs describing nightmarish compatibility issues and lack of support or capability for various mainstream tools, but seems to have a completely unjustified and wildly optimistic point of view that all the problems are just short term transitional annoyances that will be fixed in Q1 2021 or shortly thereafter. It concludes M1 is worth the hype. What a bizarre perspective with nothing to support it except apparently blind optimism.

tosh 6y ago
optimism might be justified: there are updates for apps coming out basically every day atm
macintux 6y ago
Well, there’s also Apple’s success rate at pulling off transitions like this, and the fact that their developer partners know they have to either make the transition or abandon the platform. Unlike Microsoft dipping its toes into the ARM waters, everyone knows Apple is committed to this.
- totalZero 6y ago
  Apple pulled off a similar transition once in recent history (the other examples are so antiquated that they teach us little about the present hardware industry), and that was a move toward the rest of the personal computing market --- not away. This is a step toward mobile/iOS. Apple isn't the same underdog that it was when PowerPC was put to bed, and the transition is challenging because the Mac platform is bifurcated in the interim. PowerPC to Intel isn't a good proxy for this because the technology is different, the transition strategy is different, and the company itself is different. If the M1 transition is to be smooth, it has to achieve that on its own merits, without looking back in search of comparable transitions past.
  - macintux 6y ago
    The complaints raised in this article are mostly irrelevant to the typical consumer. Rosetta 2, from all reports, works well enough that I’d argue they’ve already succeeded in making the transition smooth enough to call it a success. The main non-developer concern raised in this piece is extraneous dialog messages, which sadly we’ve pretty well all been trained to ignore. I agree they’re unfortunate, but they’re hardly a show-stopper. The real risks Apple faces, as far as I can see: * Will developers do the needful for universal apps? That seems to be well underway, even among the giants. * Will a lack of x86-64 Windows emulation prove to be a deal-breaker for too many users? I’d say that’s impossible to know, but I’m optimistic. (And if Apple once again is setting a trend for the industry, Windows itself may fully make this transition someday.) * Will Apple be able to keep up with AMD and Intel in the chip race? Obviously early signs are promising. Big risks, but mostly ones Apple can control, or at least influence. What other dangers am I missing? Adding: the dependence on TSMC is obviously a risk, but I imagine Apple has some notion of what they can do if they lose that option.

bcit-cst 6y ago

I still can't decide. I am wanting to get into ios development after 10 years. which computer should I go for. What is opinion on these m1 machines longevity. Some tech people are comparing it to first gen iPad.Like they will be sunset after a couple of years vs 2nd gen which are supported much longer. but I am not so sure most of the issues with these first gen m1 machines are software so in theory they should be supported for long time.

emp 6y ago
You will be inside of Xcode for most of your time - I just upgraded to a 13" Air (maxed out configuration) from my 2012 11" Macbook Air which was still fine with Xcode. I think any Mac will run Xcode well enough.
lmedinas 6y ago
I have the new MBP and I can tell you its a remarkable machine. Of course you need to check which SW you need to run and if it works (I assume it will). I guess everything else, native versions, will come with time.
pfranz 6y ago
Apple still plans on releasing new Intel macs. I don't even think buying one of those is out of the question for some people. If you look back at the Intel transition, if I remember correctly they released the MacBook Pro with a Core Duo in January of 2006 and Core 2 Duo in October. The latter being 64-bit. Sure, the latter ones were better, but the former ones worked fine. OS support seems to go with architecture generations. The early 2006 laptops supported Snow Leopard which had its last release in 2011. The next laptops supported Lion which had its last release in 2012 (but with hacks could get updated until 2018). I think the major question is if you want to wait to see what the "pro" machines look like or if Apple has tweaks in 6 months to the current line up. The Mac Pro has some big questions about what may need to change if they're looking for parity with the current Mac Pro (improved multi-monitor support, more RAM options, upgradable GPUs). Those changes may show up in the high end Macbook Pros (likely not upgradable GPUs).
kalleboo 6y ago

cma 6y ago

Interesting that Java "write-once, run anywhere" stuff ends up being the slowest due to having to run through emulation if it interfaced with native code (native compiled code: fast; java jit for the right arch: fast; java jit for the wrong arch due to old native integration: super slow).

saagarjha 6y ago
A server JDK running under Rosetta is actually not too bad, performance-wise.

izacus 6y ago

> Xcode runs FAST on the M1. Compiling the PSPDFKit PDF SDK (debug, arm64) can almost compete with the fastest Intel-based MacBook Pro Apple offers to date, with 8:49 min vs 7:31 min. For comparison, my Hackintosh builds the same in less than 5 minutes. This is telling just about how unrealistic Geekbench benchmarks, used by most reviewers, really are - they were all forecasting M1 completely humiliating everything from Intel and yet in practice it's not quite right. It's a dang impressive chip still though.

dschu 6y ago
Yeah, but the MBA is doing all that with just 10W (15W burst), while your hackintosh most likely consumes 400W. Not really comparable though.
- ianhowson 6y ago
  I'm happy to pay for the electricity if I get faster builds. My daily driver is a Hackintosh and with the CPUs pegged pulls about 70W from the wall. The two displays add another 90W. M1 is impressively efficient but there's still a gap for fast, no-compromise workstations.
  - kevindong 6y ago
    On a desktop, power consumption doesn't really matter. But on a laptop, it matters a ton. Personally I prefer doing work from my couch rather than my desk; ergonomics and external monitors be damned.
    - jmnicolas 6y ago
      I don't know how old are you but you might regret that later. Around 40 years old is usually when you start to pay for carelessness with your body. Ask me how I know ...
      - bori5 6y ago

Darmody 6y ago

It saddens me to see devs locking themselves in Apple's golden jail.

the_only_law 6y ago

Not sure why people are so worried about developers getting trapped by locked down systems. I have plenty of other PC’s, running Linux, *BSD, Windows much less locked down. I’m very aware Apple is controlling of their platforms. No I’m not thrilled about certain aspects of the M1 platforms, but most platforms I’ve used feel locked down in some shape or form. If, in the case Apple tries some of the outlandish theories out there, I’ll simply cease to use it and probably trash Apple then as it will be useless to me, but I’m not locked into anything.

amelius 6y ago
> If, in the case Apple tries some of the outlandish theories out there, I’ll simply cease to use it and probably trash Apple then as it will be useless to me, but I’m not locked into anything. And what if it is too late? E.g. Apple owning the entire space you want to develop apps for? Or, if this seems an impossible theory to you, how about competitors copying Apple's model? Please understand that as a consumer you have power, but if you don't use it you can end up like the proverbial boiled frog.
- RONROC 6y ago
  I can understand this level of pearl-clutching when we’re talking about social media, but I just don’t see Apple as the five-alarm fire it’s made out to be. Practically speaking being “locked” into a system would only be a possibility in a world where highly distributed, massively supported OS’s (Windows, Linux) didn’t exist. Anti-apple people have a hard time fathoming the degree to which many other “power users” are okay with privacy/security trade offs if it results in a more robust/stable environment that just works. Problem is, it’s being framed as some sort of Faustian bargain when it’s really not that big of a deal.
  - skulk 6y ago
    > that just works Until it doesn't. I can open my Thinkpad (W530) and replace parts in it that die. Can you say the same for your Macbook? Are you okay with a future where everyone follows Apple's example because it generates more profits, where right-to-repair is a thing of the past? I know that sounds alarmist, but it's definitely the trajectory I see.

gst 6y ago

> IntelliJ is working on porting the JetBrains Runtime to Apple Silicon. The apps currently work through Rosetta 2, however building via Gradle is extremely slow. Gradle creates code at runtime, which seems a particular bad combination with the Rosetta 2 ahead-of-time translation logic. Java does not need to be run through emulation. Azul already published ARM64 Zulu builds for OpenJDK (here: https://www.azul.com/downloads/zulu-community/?package=jdk https://www.azul.com/downloads/zulu-community/?package=jdk) and they work great on the M1. I'm currently using IntelliJ running in emulation mode (an official release for the M1 was originally expected by the end of November) and but build/run my projects on a local Zulu JVM with ARM64 support.

amelius 6y ago

Was this a fully parallel build (using all cores)?

X-Istence 6y ago

I'm a developer as well and don't use apps like VSCode, or Java/Gradle... but instead develop open source projects running Python, and Rust. 1. For my open source projects, running tests has sped up so much that I find it more of a joy to work on this projects now. Test suites that take ~60 seconds on my 2017 MacBook Pro i7, now take just ~15 seconds. That's a HUGE win in the edit, run test suite cycle. 2. My Rust projects now compile in WAY less time. Something that used to take 3 minutes to compile + link for a debug build is now down to 40 seconds. Once again, this has increased my productivity in the edit, compile, test cycle. For other projects like node/npm the speedups are also massive and running various pipelines to go from source code to final deployable object is also much faster. I use vim to develop, and it runs on Rosetta just fine, so I can continue to use all my existing plugins. I don't extensively use docker containers, but for those I connect to the cloud instead of running them locally, which is a move I was already making even on my Intel based MacBook Pro. I got the 16GB 13" MacBook Pro. I, like the blog author, was thinking of this as a secondary laptop, something fun to have around, but I have hardly touched my old 15" MacBook Pro because this one does everything I already need. And does it faster. I've been living with 16GB of RAM forever, so maybe I am used to fitting in that memory space... I avoid Electron based apps like the plague, and with being able to run iPad/iOS apps on the M1, I've been able to cut down even further since things like Authy are way faster to launch when they aren't large Chrome based hogs. I am looking forward to the 16" MacBook Pro's with Apple Silicon based processors, but only because I do miss the additional screen real-estate, and prefer the larger size. But the 13" MacBook Pro M1 has been absolutely fantastic so far.

raverbashing 6y ago
Good to know I'm glad Vim is running fine on Rosetta, still, if you wanted to compile it from source, it really shouldn't be too hard. (Rust is a harder problem, so I wouldn't worry too much, still, once the dependencies are downloaded and compiled it's usually fine)
- saagarjha 6y ago
  No need to use Rosetta: $ file `which vim` /usr/bin/vim: Mach-O universal binary with 2 architectures: [x86_64:Mach-O 64-bit executable x86_64] [arm64e] /usr/bin/vim (for architecture x86_64): Mach-O 64-bit executable x86_64 /usr/bin/vim (for architecture arm64e): Mach-O 64-bit executable arm64e

peter303 6y ago

Ah, beta testing new M1 software

safetyscissors 6y ago

I am a iOS developer and I have an M1. There are some issues that need to be ironed out with some packages that I use not compiling for some reason on the arm iOS simulator, but that has diverted me to compiling on device which isn't much of a hassle. I am not bothered as much by the 16gb of ram, it is still rather usable. What I really bought the machine for was the battery life. I've had it for a day or two and it is amazing how long I can stay away from my power socket. Also this thing runs really cool. I have not even heard the fans spin up once, even during the recent Sydney heatwave (45°C).

6gvONxR4sf7o 6y ago

Seems like a cool device. It’s too bad that apparently you need weird workarounds for more than one external monitor for the M1 MacBooks, which is my own personal dealbreaker.

lmedinas 6y ago

I don't get this blog, neither what's the point !? The author lists several bugs, instead of posting the issue number with a link, he puts his Tweet with the bug numbers (without link). Im not sure what the author is trying to accomplish here. Also I guess these kind of bugs, although not nice, they are mostly because MacOS suffered the biggest change since its history and supporting 2 completely different architectures is not an easy job. Of course we are at the mercy of Apple to fix them but this is part of the deal when you buy such a machine at this point. Then all other points are just showing all the known the same issues that some commercial SW was not yet ported to a new architecture.

deleted 6y ago

[deleted]

cyrksoft 6y ago

I travel and move around a lot (not so much now, but I still move around my country and to the office), so portability is very important to me. Another advantage of the MacBook line is that I can carry one Anker USB-C & A charger and charge everything I have. I was looking into buying the new MacBook Air. Anybody has any particular alternative to recommend? I am looking for a new laptop and haven't found anything similar to the MacBook Air (I hate the touchbar) for a similar price (the 16GB of RAM model, if expandable better). Anything similar is either a lot more expensive or the build quality is a lot worse. Any recommendation is more than welcomed!

mlazos 6y ago

I was confused why it’s hard to get a license for windows 10 on ARM. Doesn't Windows 10 already support ARM?

simonh 6y ago
Microsoft sold some Surface devices with ARM Windows 10, but they have never sold it as a standalone installable SKU for use on third party devices.
- mlazos 6y ago
  https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/uwp/porting/apps-on-arm https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/uwp/porting/apps-on... This says you can run it on arm with fall creators update or newer.
  - izacus 6y ago
    That doesn't mean Microsoft will give you the installer for ARM Windows so you can use it on anything but Surface X.
    - my123 6y ago
      Beta downloads are available at: https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/software-download/windowsinsiderpreviewARM64 https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/software-download/windowsins...

throwaway4good 6y ago

Most developers I know use already a mac. It is a faster system for similar hardware (maybe due to the filesystem or something) and its Unix insides support development work better than Windows. M1 is just going to make macs even more dominant. And AMD is not going to rescue Windows/Intel. These night and day improvements are simply too big to be explained by TSMC being a better fab than Intel.

hu3 6y ago
https://insights.stackoverflow.com/survey/2020#technology-platforms https://insights.stackoverflow.com/survey/2020#technology-pl... - Linux 55% - Windows 53% ... - MacOS 24% "Linux and Windows maintain the top spots for most popular platforms, with over half of the respondents reporting that they have done development work with them this year. We also see some year over year growth in the popularity of container technologies such as Docker and Kubernetes."
- scq 6y ago
  That's for target OSes - developer OSes look like this: https://insights.stackoverflow.com/survey/2020#technology-developers-primary-operating-systems https://insights.stackoverflow.com/survey/2020#technology-de... - Windows 45.8% - macOS 27.5% - Linux 26.6% But still, macOS users represent only around a quarter of developers.
  - hu3 6y ago
    Ahh thanks for clarifying. Somehow I missed that section which is more pertinent to the topic.
  - samatman 6y ago
    Which means we're looking at the question with the wrong granularity. There are sectors of the industry where Windows is a hard requirement, ones where Macs are utterly dominant, and others where Linux is assumed and running a proprietary Apple OS gets you the side-eye. Software development is a big tent.

stevegeek 6y ago

Sorry if this has already come up but apart from the excitement about performance what is the build quality like for the new MacBooks? The main issues I’ve been facing from Apple lately have been physical failures from keyboards to screens and ports. The 16” is better but already I’ve found some keyboard keys get unresponsive occasionally and reported battery health is deteriorating fast after only a handful of cycles...

LexGray 6y ago
Most of the complaints I have seen online are will not power on, DOA type issues. Not many yet (some review units out of box etc). Apple deems itself a consumer company and perfection is too expensive. Apple quality is generally going up every year, but slowly. Apple makes incremental improvements manufacturing nearly weekly just like software builds. I always say never buy first gen, or at least never on the first day. Never assume your machine is just going to work.

gpapilion 6y ago

I’m surprised at all the reviews talking about 16gb being enough, but with virtualization basically not excusing at this point I’m scratching my head. My current computers feel like they have enough memory until I load virtual box, or VMware.

vaccinator 6y ago

I'm starting to think that Steve Jobs was holding Apple back...

kaiwen1 6y ago

I’ve been on a new M1 since the day after release. Love it. FAR faster than my previous Mac. But there is some work left to do. It crashes every day, usually more than once. Frustrating but still very happy to have it. Just bought a second one today for my wife.

mantap 6y ago
What do you mean by 'crashes'?

worldmerge 6y ago

Maybe I've only focused on graphics and gaming PCs but it's really interesting to see how low spec some of your work machines are in this thread, like maybe I should write more efficient code. My desktop is using 32gb of DDR4 ram and laptop is on 16gb. When I did controlmylights.net I was using almost all of the 32gbs, maxing out the gpu /cpu. I don't normally run that heavy of a production on my system but it was nice to be able to do it (2x resource heavy OBS stream setups (Twitch/YouTube), MongoDB, Redis, NodeJS application, openFrameworks). My desktop raised the temperature of the room by at least 5 degrees F, it was a mini space heater. I definitely could have made that project in something lighter, maybe using Rust, but it's nice to have the headroom. The next performance upgrade for me will be overclocking my 8700k.

iammyIP 6y ago

calm down, since 10 years cpu speed doesn't really matter anymore, and if you aren't involved in the apple ecosystem hulahoop (or javascripting - god forbid) i think m1 is not very interesting untill it allows other oses to run on free hardware.

sally1620 6y ago

These first generations Apple Silicon Macs are really publicly available DTKs for developers. I think Apple is expecting all developers to jump and port their apps so they are ready when the high-end Apple Silicon devices hit the market.