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The country may be divided. But those divisions are manufactured and exacerbated over the last 4 years by a made-for-TV president. I couldn't help but think, i

• humanrebar 6y ago
  Trump is as much a product of the divisiveness as a cause. People initially took a shine to him because he was a "fighter". They saw a conflict already and wanted a fully willing combatant as a surrogate.
  • jcims 6y ago
    A couple weeks before the 2016 election Michael Moore (who I’m typically not big a fan of) had one of the best reads on why Trump would and ultimately did win that election. I've been politically homeless for a while now but still registered Republican as is almost all of my family. Moore's points directly map to my conversations with them better than any other explanation I've seen on the Internet.: https://youtu.be/vMm5HfxNXY4 https://youtu.be/vMm5HfxNXY4 I think it's important to keep in mind that Trump winning the primaries in 2016 was essentially a repudiation of the entire Republican incumbency by a good portion of their base.
    • joe_the_user 6y ago
      Just about every general "reason Trump would win" for last election looks pretty dumb with this election. Because basically all those arguments remain true - yet Trump didn't win. These aren't argument for why Trump would win. They were arguments for why Trump has some purchase. The reason Trump won was the elites go so sloppy they let him win, they let their garbage boogieman alternative become the choice because they were addicted to having that kind of creep as their opposition. And Michael Moore's argument in particular is crap among these. Homeless factory workers aren't Trump's base, family construction companies are his base - I see them regularly. The well-off but not college educated.
      • jcims 6y ago
        There's obviously some weirdly obsessed people out there getting air time but on the macro scale 2020's election was not-Biden vs not-Trump.
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  • jquery 6y ago
    Precisely. Fortunately, it appears most of the country is ready to move on and accept Biden as President. My friends and family who are conservative are happy it’s over, and completely fine with the results. As cliche as it is, they accept that the people have spoken. The majesty of democratic voting and peaceful transfer of power is something beautiful to behold. Hopefully Trump can accept the results sooner rather than later. His instinct to fight at all costs is not serving him well in this situation. Fortunately, it’s futile. As someone said in one of the debates, it’s not up to him whether he gets to stay, it’s up to us. I hope the the next 4 years are more unified than the last 4.
    • Alex63 6y ago
      You could be right, but I'm not really seeing a lot of evidence that "most of the country is ready to move on and accept Biden as President." Not seeing a lot of those Trump rally-goers suddenly deciding that Biden is OK. In fact what I see is a lot of Trump supporters outraged about what they believe is shaping up to be a stolen election. And a lot of comments to the effect that Trump is not Nixon (1960).
      • jquery 6y ago
        I’m confident they are a tiny yet loud minority. I hope I’m not proven wrong.
        • astine 6y ago
          I know too many of those people in my personal life to believe that they are a tiny minority. Trump has built himself an effective cult following. People turn off their brains in order to follow him and start to believe most of what he says. They'll say that they understand that he's a liar, bu then still believe the lies. It's frustrating to watch it happen.
  • hn_throwaway_99 6y ago
    My pet theory is similar, but slightly more nuanced, and comes from my history of being harshly bullied in middle school. The group dynamics of bullying are pretty straightforward. There will always be bullies at the top who want to cement their status by showing their power as a bully. To get a significant group of people to go along with the bullying, however, (think everyone laughing along when the bully makes fun of someone) that group needs to be really unsure of their place in the social hierarchy. They know bullying is wrong but at that point are somewhat terrified of ending up on the wrong side of the bullying. That's why you see so much bullying in middle school, where kids are usually just starting to find their place in the social hierarchy. I think in the US (and many Western democracies) there is currently so much unease about economics, about finding a good, and more importantly, stable job, that the situation is ripe for a bully to come along and take advantage of people's general worries about their place in the world to think "better for me to be a bully myself than to be the person that ends up on the bottom of the totem pole". Think of the crowd laughing along when Trump mocked a reporter with cerebral palsy. When you couple this with large, structural racial changes in the US, it's not hard to see how Trump was able to take advantage.
• davidf18 6y ago
  Trump was attempting to fix the broken H1-B Visa system, raising the wages that one must earn which is only a start. H1-B Visa, by law, is only for those jobs where there are no Americans to fill the role, eg. theoretical physicist PhD with masters in data science. But firms and hospitals use this to get foreigners at cheaper wages to supplant Americans from their jobs from programmers to doctors (MDs). Biden, Schumer, Harris, all wish to make the job market and wages worse for American STEM workers/doctors (MDs). During the 2016 primaries, when Disney CEO Bob Iger replaced about 200 American STEM workers with H1-B Visa abuse replacements, it was Trump and Sanders who complained vociferously about the illegal use of H1-B, which the Obama DOJ did nothing about, perhaps because Clinton received a $100,000 donation from the same Bob Iger for the Hilary Victory Fund. Trump recently fired the CEO of the federal TVA for attempting to replace 200 American STEM workers H1-B Visa abuse foreigners and then made an exec order to prohibit any federal agency from doing so. Biden, Schumer want to increase the number of H1-B Visas (Schumer wants to triple them). VP (and former Sen Harris) was Democratic sponsor of senate bill S.386 which seeks to double the number of Indians who get green cards. The moves of Trump helps Americans. The moves of Biden, Schumer, Harris harms Americans. Those are the facts, irrefutable, as have been presented above. So, ask yourself, do I want an American President that give in to donors like Bob Iger and brings more foreigners into the country or do I want someone like Trump, who cannot be bribed and does what is best for Americans and not foreigners.
  • pmiller2 6y ago
    You do realize that once those people get green cards, they are a good ways down the path toward being American, right? Immigration is economically very good for the US, as well.
    • lol2143651 6y ago
      Just pass a law making everyone legally black, and you've just achieved racial justice, too right?
    • davidf18 6y ago
      By law, H1-B (which leads to the green card) can only be given for jobs for which they cannot find an American to do the job, regardless of salary. There are plenty of Americans that can program computers, yet they are hiring a lot of people with H1-B, not because of special skills which is the intent of the law, but simply because they can program computers.
• justin66 6y ago
  > We're actually all rooting for the same things here. It's not helping anything to pretend this is true. For example, consider the spectrum of reactions you witness among your peers, not to mention on social media, the next time there's a high profile killing of an unarmed person of color by police officers. I don't think woo, it's great that we all want the same things is the feeling you're going to get.
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  • Latty 6y ago
    Indeed. Historically I would have said conservatives in the US wanted the same thing (increased prosperity for all), and just had different ideas on how that was achieved. Under Trump, it has become clear that they (edit: Republicans) want something fundamentally different: to do better than other groups of people. They care more about hurting those they disagree with than making things better for anyone.
    • jquery 6y ago
      You were right in the past. The people who want to “drink libtard tears” are a small minority, a mirror image of people on the left who want to throw Republicans into re-education camps. It’s curious how many conclusions people draw from a binary choice on a ballot.
      • donmcronald 6y ago
        > re-education camps Aka schools? Honestly, what do you do with people making $40k / year who think they’re going to be affected by tax on earnings over $400k, going to pay tax on the sale of their primary residence, and going to be affected by the estate tax? There are a lot of people that can’t seem to figure out they aren’t rich and are never going to be.
      • Latty 6y ago
        Except that is a false equivalency, every Republican voter backed a candidate who ran on that platform and policy. Yes, there will always be a few people at the extremes of any movement. It is very different when they control the movement. They may have seen it as the "least-bad" option rather than actively wanting what Trump was offering, but honestly that distinction doesn't matter if they are willing to support that level of harm. You don't get to vote for Trump and claim you aren't in that group. If you enabled him, you own his policy.
• tetrometal 6y ago
  I disagree. I see a narcissist and a buffoon when I look at Trump, but none of his behavior validates anything close to the crazed response we see from the primarily left-leaning mainstream media. It's been a constant stream of catastrophizing from them for the last four years. It was like this during the Bush years as well, though they do seem to have perfected it.
  • csnover 6y ago
    What would have to be true in order for you to feel that the media response to Trump’s presidency has been appropriate?
    • tetrometal 6y ago
      Well, they've been presenting him as a fascist authoritarian for four years, so if that were true I'd be inclined to believe their response was appropriate.
      • gwbas1c 6y ago
        Trump actively campaigned as the "law and order" president. That is, by definition, fascist and authoritarian.
        • syril 6y ago
          Facism is law and order? Hm... doesn't sound all that bad.
      • matthewdgreen 6y ago
        He was repeatedly asked if he would support the peaceful transfer of power if he lost, and he repeatedly refused to do so. That’s pretty much as authoritarian as you get.
        • tetrometal 6y ago
          This is such a blatantly false framing that it's impossible for me to believe you're presenting it in good faith.
• tbwriting 6y ago
  The guy had armies of white supremacist supporters and advisers. He told right-wing extremists to “stand by” on national TV. Every time you gloss over this, you give a pass to it and to those who knew about it and supported him anyway.
  • abc-xyz 6y ago
    And Biden has a history of being pro-China, and have made it clear that he wants to end Trump’s China tariffs and treat China like we did during the Obama/Biden administration. I’d say that’s far worse, and I wager the hundreds of millions, if not billions, of people suffering from the hands of the CCP agree.
    • ineedasername 6y ago
      President Trump was not working against China's human right violations either. I don't think a change of US leadership is going to make much of an impact on their quality of life one way or another.
    • heimidal 6y ago
      Just to be clear, you are saying that having favorable trade policies with China is worse than directly associating the presidency with actual white supremacists? Really?
      • objektif 6y ago
        It may very well be why is it so surprising? What Trump was doing is just playing politics to a group of stupid people. On the other hand pro-China policies have potential to destroy the social fabric of this country for generations. (I am a Bernie guy do not be so quick to judge)
      • adventured 6y ago
        As opposed to Biden's belligerent life-long racism, which the left universally goes a great distance out of its way to ignore? Even Kamala Harris called him a racist. She did her best to run away from that after it was no longer convenient of course. See: Biden's statements on "a racial jungle," segregation, busing, and how he didn't want his children going to desegregated schools. See: Biden's support of the crime bill that specifically targeted and locked up a million black people. See: Biden's past friendships and associations with 'former' KKK memembers like Robert Byrd (someone he considered a good friend and mentor). Byrd was one of the most vile pieces of scum elected to the US Government in the past century. How's that for associating with white supremacists? See: Biden's racist statements about Obama prior to the 2008 election.
• mrh0057 6y ago
  Go look at the polling for issues and ballout provisions that passed. The US isn't as divided as you think it is.
  • jointpdf 6y ago
    For example, these Fox News voter analysis results (and the screenshots themselves) are really something. Relatively major consensus on things like climate, renewable energy, healthcare, etc. https://twitter.com/existentialfish/status/1323752032000450570?s=21 https://twitter.com/existentialfish/status/13237520320004505...
    • tekknik 6y ago
      Fox News is considered liberal by most on the right these days. Using it as a poll for where the right stands is irresponsible at best.
      • 3131s 6y ago
        Well that was inevitable with the removal of some of their more prominent sexual predators.
        • tekknik 6y ago
          And yet another reason for the division right here.
      • hn_throwaway_99 6y ago
        This is kind of hilarious to me. Fox News is unwilling to completely ignore reality and thus it is "liberal" these days.
        • tekknik 6y ago
          More like there’s better. Fox isn’t fair and balanced and never really was and they started getting sensational. The right doesn’t want a soap opera for news. A recent example with when they called AZ by blindly listening to AP when anybody that knows basic math could see a large chunk of votes still remaining. When you prove you can’t be trusted you lose your audience.
• king_panic 6y ago
  We are one country that's been divided by a news media telling us what to believe. Look no further than the dead wrong "polling data" -- again -- to see there's an agenda playing out in our hands and living rooms. If you still believe what you see on MSM, I've got a bridge to sell you. We don't talk to others anymore. We tweet, we Facebook, we Instagram, we believe what we read on screens and we've made companies feeding us what we want to hear rich. There is a game being played, you've just missed the players.
  • hn_throwaway_99 6y ago
    > Look no further than the dead wrong "polling data" -- again -- to see there's an agenda playing out in our hands and living rooms. I think this is a tired, lazy argument. First, while the polls were skewed they actually weren't that wrong, and many of the differences are magnified by the fact that the electoral college forces us to chop up one large poll (the national results) into lots of small ones (the states) where statistically you're likely to see more variance no matter what. And as for the skew, the generally accepted explanation that it's easier to poll urban, more highly educated people than rural, lower educated people makes much more sense than there being some coordinated conspiracy.
    • king_panic 6y ago
      Don't kid yourself. The polls were dead wrong, they predicted Joe Biden would win an overwhelming popular vote. Believing otherwise is naive. There is no "generally accepted explanation" for the polling skew, let alone one as obvious as "it's easier to poll highly educated, urban voters than lesser educated rural voter". Believing pollsters are dumb enough to not consider this when conducting polls is lazy thinking.
      • hn_throwaway_99 6y ago
        > The polls were dead wrong, they predicted Joe Biden would win an overwhelming popular vote. But Biden did win an overwhelming popular vote.
• mellowdream 6y ago
  Division was manufactured when Trump became president? So what do you propose as the reason for why he became president in the first place? Who is responsible for that?
• droptablemain 6y ago
  Generally speaking, I would agree with you. However, it's important to remember that there is great economic angst in the United States. Workers' wages have remained relatively flat for 40 years, despite accelerating productivity and inflation. Unless a Biden administration can begin to heal and make whole America's large working class, the angst will continue to grow and eventually boil over.
• platz 6y ago
  > We're actually all rooting for the same things here. I don't think you understand half the country.
  • austincheney 6y ago
    The people who most see division are those most looking for it.
    • platz 6y ago
      The people that think everyone is (and should be!) just like them are the most delusional and insulting.
      • austincheney 6y ago
        Who is that?
• seebetter 6y ago
  The division is manufactured by both political parties. It’s naive to think anything has changed.
• antlerman 6y ago
  To extend your analogy, the players on the field only have so much they can do--Trump included. Might be worth asking who is in the owner's box, who is betting on the game, and why are we in the stands cheering so aggressively for either side in the first place. With Trump out in January, I hope more people are critical and skeptical of the various institutions in our country that wield the actual power. For a more in depth analysis, would highly recommend Glenn Greenwald's take: https://greenwald.substack.com/p/no-matter-the-liberal-metric-chosen https://greenwald.substack.com/p/no-matter-the-liberal-metri...
• austincheney 6y ago
  What division? Nobody I know, in person, goes to protests or stops talking to each other because of how they vote. I literally mean nobody. No division. The most extreme is that some people I know cry when an election doesn’t go their way and then their friends make fun of them. Division is a perception created by keyboard warriors and news that needs something to report on and the rest of us find crazy people entertaining. If you turn the news off and step away from social media the artificial insanity goes away. I do understand some major metros have witnessed massive protests this year with large scale property destruction. From the outside looking in it looks like communities with a lack of diversity and severe economic stratification. I say that because I live in a major metro that experienced none of that insanity and this major city is either or about to be the most diverse major US city and is very healthy economically.
  • crooked-v 6y ago
    > Nobody I know, in person, goes to protests or stops talking to each other because of how they vote. Good for you. But some of us have friends who will literally die if the ACA is repealed, so, yes, I have cut people out out of my life for supporting the Republicans.
    • austincheney 6y ago
      Then the division, according to you, is self inflicted.
      • crooked-v 6y ago
        Self-inflicted? No. The cutoff at that point is merely formalizing the destruction of social niceties already achieved by supporting people who literally want to kill one of my friends.
        • austincheney 6y ago
          You are, according to you, destroying relationships intentionally over a difference of opinion. Isn’t that the very definition of intolerance?
• deleted 6y ago
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• tootie 6y ago
  I honestly don't know if Trump did this or just unleashed it. The thing that has kept me up at night isn't Trump himself but the millions of people who think he's the most qualified person to be president.
• beamatronic 6y ago
  We aren’t all rooting for fascism. Speak for yourself.