53 ms·

Remote work is reshaping San Francisco, as tech workers flee and rents fall

• virginieAFP 6y ago
  Hello, I'm a correspondent in the bay area for AFP which is a global news agency(https://www.afp.com/en/news-hub https://www.afp.com/en/news-hub) and I'm looking for to talk with people who are moving out from San Francisco because of the pandemic/remote work now accessible. Please, let me know if you are interested or know someone who may be. Thanks, Virginie Goubier
• andromeduck 6y ago
  Having moved back to Vancouver for a few weeks it's honestly so refreshing to, be back. Living in SF for a few years kind of makes you forget what being in a half functioning city is like. It's safer, it's cleaner, the people friendlier, the discourse less polarized/toxic, and the public transit isn't garbage.
  • deleted 6y ago
    [deleted]
  • QuixoticQuibit 6y ago
    Yes, I already feel this despite not having moved out of the SFBA yet. I miss more dense cities with functional transit systems and fewer on-the-street issues. Still planning to stay here long term to save extra money. But as soon as I hit my number, I’m moving out of this disaster in urban planning; there’s just no future here.
    • andromeduck 6y ago
      Yeah. Turns out people don't just pack up their lives and leave without reason. ️ Transit/zoning/policing is only half the story though IMO. The other half is just how toxic a lot of the discourse here is. There seems to be an especially strong preference here for private reason over public reason that I think underpins much of the social issues here between rose tinted nostalgia for bygone area, strong nativism and exclusionary localism that IMO is quite MAGA-esque.
  • Mountain_Skies 6y ago
    Better weather this time of year too. Public transportation seems to work better in Canada due to a greater willingness to make use of buses. Lots of people in the US who are in favor of mass transit will only use rail based transit, making the last mile problem troublesome. Buses feeding into the SkyTrain helps solve much of this problem.
• aminozuur 6y ago
  I applaud this trend. I am in the 60% of people[1] who prefer to work from home, and spend more time with loved ones and less time rushing to get to the office. [1] https://www.nytimes.com/2020/05/05/business/pandemic-work-from-home-coronavirus.html https://www.nytimes.com/2020/05/05/business/pandemic-work-fr...
  • amw-zero 6y ago
    I’m very skeptical that 60% of all people prefer to work from home. In my experience, it’s a small but vocal minority who don’t value the social component of an office. I think work from home should totally be optional, but why do work-from-homers assume that everyone else likes to work that way? I do not.
    • sdoering 6y ago
      During the soft lockdown in Germany we had an internal questionnaire. The results are surely skewed because of the conditions (parents needing to act as teachers, because of closed schools; people having no real office equipment at home like a desk and stuff like that). None the less around 30% answered that they would prefer full time work from home for the future. About one third wanted to return to the office as fast as possible. And the rest stated that they would prefer some days in the office, some remote.
    • asutekku 6y ago
      We had a questionnaire at my company and the numbers are pretty similar. It’s not just a loud minority.
    • SpicyLemonZest 6y ago
      I think the factor you're missing is the large chunk of people who just... aren't particularly fulfilled by their job. A lot of the people in that 60% are perfectly fine with it if working from home means they're less productive or achieve less of a personal connection with their coworkers - I know more than a few people who'd be happier watching Youtube alone for 8 hours than working.
• walamaking 6y ago
  I wonder what impact will WFH have on getting promotions, and the likelihood of being laid off.
  • goldenManatee 6y ago
    Probably flux at first, and after some time an equilibrium. People get used to all kinds of things - change or die, for companies and careers alike. Worrying about this will be irrelevant after some time. Too much concern on this kind of suggests to me that a significant portion of people’s pay is based on the perception of productivity derived from interfacing with many people at work, but not necessarily producing a lot more for the company than saliva.
    • CamTin 6y ago
      This is correct IMO. Most of the workforce at any office-y (including tech) company of significant size isn't a positive investment for their employer. We're all just spending our days trying to prove that there's good reason to hesitate in firing us. It is absolutely a concern for us if something happens that makes it more difficult for us to keep up this charade, especially if it coincides with a dramatic recession that gives management a reason to sniff around for cost savings.
    • SpicyLemonZest 6y ago
      I don't agree with the dichotomy here. There's no "more than" about it; interfacing with people is one of the most important ways that white collar professionals produce value for a company.
      • wandereronhn 6y ago
        Thankfully we have technologies now that have moved beyond smoke signals and we can actually talk to people without being in visible range.
        • SpicyLemonZest 6y ago
• dclusin 6y ago
  I got a job offer from Capital One several years ago in Richmond, VA. I liked the location and the company but my current gig is paying over twice as much in San Jose, CA. I just don't see this panning out on a large scale once people realize that their paychecks will also drop significantly when they move away.
  • cjlars 6y ago
    Three possibilities: 1. All the bay area companies realize they can employ the best talent remotely from around the country (globe?) successfully. The SF pay premium drops. 2. Bay Area companies pay according to cost of living, many remotely. Some people move, some stay. SF pay premium holds. 3. Everyone realizes the pre pandemic normal was right all along and having a lot of talented people in the same building matters a lot for company success. SF pay premium holds.
    • propter_hoc 6y ago
      I agree, although if the premise of the article is true, #1 is the implied outcome.
      • gpapilion 6y ago
        We already know #1 isn’t true. Facebook, and Twitter both reduce salaries for remote workers. They probably still pay a local premium but that isn’t different from the Bay Area in general.
    • andromeduck 6y ago
      4. Everyone realizes effects are important but also that there is pent up demand for non-sf locations, second tier hubs get more traction, SF premium slowly erodes.
    • prostoalex 6y ago
      Feels like we've been through #1 with the wave of Indian outsourcing prophesied to eat up US IT industry 20 years ago. If Austin or Denver offer employees at a discount, why not Manila and Bangalore?
• Cactus2018 6y ago
  A) The linked WSJ article claims "The median rent for a one-bedroom apartment in San Francisco in the month of July dropped by 11% compared with the same month a year prior, according to rental-listings platform Zumper, which analyzed nearly 11,000 listings in the city and several surrounding areas." http://archive.is/CZeTm http://archive.is/CZeTm However, B) A different article, dated 8/3/2020, claims: "In San Francisco, Zillow says rent prices declined 3.2 percent compared to the same time last year." https://sanfrancisco.cbslocal.com/2020/08/03/in-bay-areas-covid-19-rental-market-renters-suddenly-have-more-negotiating-power/ https://sanfrancisco.cbslocal.com/2020/08/03/in-bay-areas-co... PadMapper shows the range for a 1 bedroom rental as ~$2k-$4k, and 2 bedrooms as ~$3k-$5k. A 3.2% drop on a $4k rental takes the price down to $3.9k. Not a big 'fall' in the scheme of finding affordable housing. https://www.padmapper.com/apartments/san-francisco-ca/2-beds?property-categories=apartment,condo,house&max-days=6&exclude-airbnb https://www.padmapper.com/apartments/san-francisco-ca/2-beds...
  • tempsy 6y ago
    Rents have definitely gone down much more than "just a barely noticeable" amount. Yes, this is anecdotal, but I check studios and 1-bedrooms almost religiously on Craigslist and places in neighborhoods I check are at least 10% cheaper from what I've found compared to last year and there are far more concessions (e.g. free month of rent) than I've ever seen. I also negotiated my own rent down in my studio after my lease was up. Only 5% but kept my month-to-month.
  • marcinzm 6y ago
    Landlords prefer to give concessions (1-2 months free of rent) rather than lowering the base price. This effectively allows them to increase rent in 12 months by 10+% without issues of rent control legislation.
• d2049 6y ago
  For the people leaving the bay area - I'm curious what your living situation is. I've been in SF or Palo Alto for 15 years since graduating. I'm single, most of my friends are here and the rest are in NYC. I love the idea of moving somewhere more spread out, maybe close to the beach or in the woods, but not at the expense of being isolated. Sure, I know a couple people who've moved away but the vast majority are staying in the city.
• bluedevil2k 6y ago
  It’s odd they don’t mention the sky high taxes in California as a driving force for the exodus and the fact the Gavin Newsom wants to raise them even more to cover Covid shortages. There’s only so much you can squeeze out of people before they’ll pack up an go.
  • danhak 6y ago
    Property taxes in California are among the lowest in the nation.
    • bluedevil2k 6y ago
      And the income tax is by far the highest, currently at 13.3% compared to 2nd place Hawaii’s 11%. Sales tax averages to 8.5%, good for 9th highest in the country.
      • danhak 6y ago
        > And the income tax is by far the highest, currently at 13.3% If you’re earning over $1,000,000 per year, yes. SF median income is below 100K.
        • blisterpeanuts 6y ago
          SF also charges a city income tax of 1.5% (flat rate).
          • dmode 6y ago
            SF has no income tax. This is incorrect
            • brandur 6y ago
              Your parent's comment is out of date, but what you said isn't a fair representation either. The 1.5% tax they're talking was the 1.5% payroll tax that SF had in place until 2012 [1]. Payroll tax isn't quite the same as an income tax because the onus isn't on the employee to figure it out like state and federal, but it still did cost most businesses in SF an extra 1.5% on every employee's salary to be there. Prop E shifted most of this to a gross receipts tax instead (although there's still a 0.38% payroll expense tax in place [2]). Again, the numbers your parent is talking about are out of date, but the spirit of it is right in that it does just fundamentally cost a company quite a bit more to have an employee in SF. --- [1] https://sftreasurer.org/business/taxes-fees/gross-receipts-tax-gr https://sftreasurer.org/business/taxes-fees/gross-receipts-t... [2] https://sftreasurer.org/business/taxes-fees/payroll-expense-tax-py https://sftreasurer.org/business/taxes-fees/payroll-expense-...
• Shivetya 6y ago
  Somehow completely ignoring the issue with how the homeless have made many areas of the city uninviting. The pandemic is being exploited by both business and politicians alike to mask underlying issues in hopes of getting a free pass. The old don't look behind the curtain. Protest violence isn't helping any city; and the lie about Federal agents causing it was silences with continued violence long after they left; and the long term change to where people want to live from the confluence of the pandemic, protest violence, and costs, is all coming to haunt our cities.
  • wwwwwwwww 6y ago
    > how the homeless have made many areas of the city uninviting That's a very ugly sentence. Its is not "the homeless" who made the city uninviting. That is like saying "the sick made this hospital uninviting". Homeless people need help. They are people in distress. Those who made the city uninviting are self-centered voters, who apparently can't give two shits about the situation, and keep voting people into power who don't do anything to help those who need help.
    • D895n9o33436N42 6y ago
      > That is like saying "the sick made this hospital uninviting". But the sick do make a hospital uninviting! Think of all those heart attack patients who opted not to visit their local emergency department. Heart attacks are still happening regardless of how many additional patients are at the hospital due to infection.
      • etrautmann 6y ago
        This misses the point the parent was making.
        • tiredyam 6y ago
          But it does point out flaws in the analogy
    • 6y ago
• x87678r 6y ago
  Whenever I see % increase as a headline you can be confident that its using percentages in order to make a misleading point. Sure enough a few paragraphs down: > It should be noted that San Francisco had an unusually low inventory relative to other large cities prior to the pandemic. Maybe there are a lot of people selling, but you can ignore this particular stat.
  • SpicyLemonZest 6y ago
    I’m not sure it’s reasonable to entirely ignore a statistic because it could be skewed by other factors. There’s no quick way to directly measure the net outflow, so if we want to anticipate the problem in advance potentially misleading data is all we’ve got.
  • deleted 6y ago
    [deleted]
  • dang 6y ago
    This comment was posted about a different article (we merged two threads). Explanation here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24179898 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24179898
• kbos87 6y ago
  It seems very tough to draw any conclusions on this just yet. The media has clearly latched onto a storyline of a mass exodus from American cities, but the reality is probably much more complex. It seems plausible that SF already had such low inventory numbers that any change would look huge on a chart like this, though that doesn’t appear to be the case in the other highly competitive markets seen here. I’d love to see the actual monthly figures... maybe it’s true that there’s an exodus afoot, or maybe SF was that much worse off from an inventory perspective until now. It also seems plausible that SF has a unique combination of factors that put it in a bad spot right now. It’s insanely expensive, quality of life has been on the decline for some time, and the types of companies that made real estate there so expensive in the first place are also likely to be the ones that adopt remote work quickly and wholeheartedly. SF aside, my best guess at this point is that many American cities are and will continue to actually see some amount of people leaving for lower cost and more spacious markets, especially if remote work optionality sticks in the way it looks like it will. But cities have enduring appeal - proximity to people and culture and things to do is just as much a factor as proximity to work. I think any exodus we see in most markets will amount mostly to a pull-forward of people who would have left cities anyway because of life stage, but did it a year or two early if they could.
  • opencl 6y ago
    The report is from Zillow, it's easy enough to see the current inventory number. I just searched and it's at 1,849 in the city limits.
  • 37r7rudjduj 6y ago
    > The media has clearly latched onto a storyline of a mass exodus from American cities, but the reality is probably much more complex. < But isn't the point of the article that San Francisco specifically is seeing an exceptional exodus? The story even mentions San Jose as a regional counter example to the observations being made of SF.
    • roenxi 6y ago
      Something strange might be happening to do with a very local effect - maybe a couple of large employers permanently went remote first resulting in a temporary blip. It is obvious from the charts that something unusual happened in SF. But that is different from it being sustained, not about to reverse or even important. The dust hasn't even finished rising from COVID-19 yet, let alone settled. And it isn't even clear this is COVID-19 related.
• bamboozled 6y ago
  Have others noticed this kind of "revolt against cities" attitude lately too? I do wonder if people consider the huge advantages city living can provide? I'm reading constantly that current dream is buying a plot of land in the middle no where, signing up for StarLink and growing watermelons while trying to work a full time engineering job. The thing is though, this is all just a temporary thing, even if this pandemic meanders on for another 3-5 years. It's nothing in the course of history.People will still go to cities because the best opportunities, education, entertainment and social scenes will exist there. People who live in cities will have advantages and children will want to move there from the country to be with other young people. I'm not saying that there aren't advantages to the country lifestyle, I've spent time in rural areas too and had plenty of family who lived, I understand the romantic allure of it. But cities were popular before this, and they'll be popular after this too.
  • BurningFrog 6y ago
    This is a revolt against San Francisco in particular though.
  • ghaff 6y ago
    On the other hand, in the US, people had been net migrating out of many cities--including today's "elite" cities--until around the late 90s for about the previous 40-50 years. The current idea that young people all want to live in cities is relatively recent. When I graduated from grad school in the mid-80s, essentially no one from my class who went to work in the Boston area actually lived in the city.
    • lucidguppy 6y ago
      I wonder when the country will realize that the rush hour traffic of the nation is a drag on the economy and should be addressed as serious as any emergency. We need livable towns and cities with good schools where anybody can move anywhere.
      • SpicyLemonZest 6y ago
• ravenstine 6y ago
  Putting any valid criticism of this article aside, anecdotally, I know a bunch of people who have either left or are in the process of leaving California in the last few months. One of them just left SF. In other news, one of my cousins is seriously working towards moving out of NY. 3 of my team members have moved to smaller parts of the country. Simply speaking, my gut tells me this isn't just about San Francisco. They don't have a monopoly on overexpensive housing, homelessness, drug problems, feces, violence, or taxes. Again, anecdotal, but I think the exodus is real, and it's not hard to see why. We're going to soon hit a point where apologists for cities will no longer be able to defend them. I would love to live in a city if it didn't both punish success and fail to help those whom are truly in need.
  • ghaff 6y ago
    And, as many other articles have noted, there is a danger of death spirals as in the past. Transit systems are having serious problems. City services in general are going to have very serious budget issues. And so forth. If you now have to buy a car to live in the city will you still stay?
    • lambdatronics 6y ago
      >If you now have to buy a car to live in the city will you still stay? Interesting take. It seems like a domino too far, but it could conceivably contribute to a collapse that was already going to happen.
  • vmception 6y ago
    > I would love to live in a city if it didn't both punish success and fail to help those whom are truly in need. I’ve never heard this put so succinctly, or I can relate to it more now. I like dating “spiritual” women but I have seriously considered living in a shittier place in SF so they didn't feel uneasy or “misaligned” as they say. I have literally heard “makes me suspicious” [0]. Working professionals love the place/decor/view though but they aren’t as fun. There are self-proclaimed communists in SF and coastal east bay towns. Its a little jarring. [0] One of my boys - who is twice my age - said “if you want to attract trust funded hippies, just say you are a drug dealer but that you only have thc edibles right now”. I have yet to do that but I could see that working well, from my own observations. Maybe not the best environment if there are places that celebrate material success but also dont cost as much or have favelas literally at the ground level.
• 627467 6y ago
  For now my gut will just consider this trend to be of slowing down in urbanization (of large metropolis) trend rather than a reversal or collapse of large (quasi-)city-states. If anything, this will improve the live of those who can't move out of big cities. And cities will hopefully have some breathing room to make different kind of decisions now that some of the citizens have left.
  • ghaff 6y ago
    >If anything, this will improve the live of those who can't move out of big cities. Maybe. Will that still be true if transit systems and city services generally are in disarray and many of your nice restaurants, cafes, and bars shuttered?
    • 627467 6y ago
      1. While i can understand why certain levels of transit services required a certain baseline of usage I really don't think the scale of the exodus is sufficient to warrant mass disruption of existing transit lines (maybe disrupt the development of new ones is more likely?) 2. I always prefered large cities but I wouldn't say it was mostly due to restaurants, bars and cafes. These I can find anywhere and are cheap to setup. Large city facilities and institutions like museums, theatres, government offices, sports venues, these are just some of the impossible to replace and important things that large cities still and will always have.
      • ghaff 6y ago
        >museums, theatres, government offices, sports venues I don't know. If I want museums and theatres, I can always take a long weekend at one of the relative handful of cities that have world-class ones (that doesn't really include SF). Though, in normal times, I do have a local theatre that I attend a half-dozen times a year that's about an hour drive away. Don't care about sports. I hope to not have to go into government offices. I do like visiting nice cities but I don't need to live in one full-time to take advantage of many of the amenities. As for the transit, many cities are facing incredible budget crunches right now. There's a story in the NYT just today. And it's not just the exodus; people who don't have to aren't taking public transit. I've heard numbers like 75%+ decreases in ridership.
• arrty88 6y ago
  In big cities like SF and NYC a majority of people are on the summer lease cycle. Every summer you either have to renew the same tired old place for a 2-5% increase, or you jump to a new landlord and spend promotion/bonus/raise in a modern new building. The past 2 months the streets in my NYC neighborhood have been littered with moving vans and my floor has all but emptied out.
  • ghaff 6y ago
    Yes, although among (former) urban people I know, the difference is that for those who were at least toying with the idea of moving out of the city the current situation was the trigger to do something this cycle. This has included everything from people renting an hour-plus out of the city or even moving to rural areas hours away.
• exabrial 6y ago
  Please just keep the bad ideas there. There was complete control of the local, county, and state government with an unlimited budget fueled by reckless and out of control taxation. If the ideas pandered there couldn't work in that Utopia then it won't work anywhere else.
• jeffbee 6y ago
  These inventory levels are comparable to 2009 and below 2010, both years in which the population of San Francisco increased. They are also, as the article obliquely indicates, still half the proportional levels of New York.
• captaincole 6y ago
  I am living in SF now and this confirms a very clear pattern that I have seen emerging, particularly of tech workers. I would say that >50% of the people I know who were living in the city have left, or are in the process of leaving. Some examples (there are countless): 1) All three of the roommates that I had are choosing to leave either permanently or temporarily. 2) A friend who works for google who is going on a 6 month road trip in a camper van 3) A friend who is moving to Santa Cruz just to be closer to surf while we are remote 4) A friend who moved home to Australia because of how the US is handling the virus. 5) A friend who is going month to month in different cities, staying in Airbnbs, and still paying less for housing then his one bedroom in the bay area 6) A friend who moved to Austin to live with her sister What I am seeing here is very clear also. The SIP order has removed many of the greatest parts of SF, the food, the bars, the culture, the density to be able to go anywhere and see your friends easily, and whats left are many of the problems that the city has, trash, homelessness, and exorbitant housing prices.
  • virginieAFP 6y ago
    HI! I'm the correspondent for AFP a global news agency, and I'm looking for to speak with people leaving San Francisco because of pandemic/remote work. Can i talk to you?
  • ZanyProgrammer 6y ago
    Your friends are how representative of SF people? 1. Going on a road trip right now is a very bad idea 2. Most normal people don't have the ability (I guess if you're a high performer in tech?) to move to another high income English speaking country. 3. Moving to Santa Cruz is a joke if you're worried about cost of living. 4. Same with Austin.
    • macspoofing 6y ago
      >Your friends are how representative of SF people? OP didn't say that. They said that their anecdotal experience matches the argument in the article. Somehow you decided not only to argue with OP on this point, but also to argue about the way OP's roommates and friends decided to handle remote work (from taking a road-trip to moving back home to Australia). What's your reasoning for that?
• effingwewt 6y ago
  So I decided to take a road trip, just me and my dogs recently. Went from California to Southern Texas, up to New Mexico, over to Arizona, Nevada, back to California, up to Oregon, Washington, hit the upper border, came back down to southern California. What I saw astounded me. It was like the scene from Grapes of Wrath, crossed with the Beverley Hillbillies, crossed with Tokyo Drift. I saw people leaving in droves but nowhere was it as bad as in California. There is a mass exodus of the state and no one seems to notice it. People/families are buying vans, even ford/chevy service vans to live in due to them looking commercial(less hassle from people /police), and having blacked out windows. They are also far cheaper than an rv. Speaking of rvs some people are having to buy non running ones cheap and permapark somewhere. This includes families with pets, with no other recourse. Every rest stop/flying j was people leaving or homeless people permacamped. I spoke to them regularly and the stories were truly heart wrenching. I also saw more paper plates (license plates) than regular ones (this is hyperbole but not far off the truth I'm sure even people not traveling have noticed this). Many of these people seemed to not know or care how to drive. I can't begin to guess as to the reasons but people in cars with paper plates were 90 percent of the time a-holes on the road, and I saw many of them in accidents. I'm sorry for the rant, I just am trying to say I've traveled the US extensively over my 40 years, but this one broke me. We have failed as a society, we do nothing for our most vulnerable, and its hurting us all. I advise everyone to (when its safe) go to your local rest stops and flying j/pilot/whatever rest stop and talk to some of these people. Those homeless people I see so many complain about here (they're crazy, druggies, they stink!) <-all can be true, but they are still human deserving of your understanding and empathy, and I say this as someone who had a homeless guy threaten to eat my dogs. Obviously he had issues so I just left, but someone called the cops. Thankfully Santa Monica has mental health professionals the local police can rely on for such issues, so when I told them he did not threaten me or my life, he was left alone until mental health services could arrive. But I've seen far worse from the police in regards to homelessness in say, Bakersfield. Also you will meet regular families, many now homeless, who have children with them or grandparents. Who worked their whole lives, some were even approved for unemployment months ago but never got a dime. Most families in the US can't weather missing a single paycheck and these folks were asked to wait indefinitely, and its already been what, 6 months? Or just talk to the ones who are moving, but don't know where. Did you know that many property rental companies, at least in California, now demand 3 recent check stubs and proof of work, unemployment does not count. We literally have families who have money and still have to move out of state because by the time they got their money its been months since they last worked? The moratorium on evictions was supposed to help people but guess what? Just like everything else it was perverted into something to hurt the people it was meant to help. Now no one wants a tenant that even may possibly be a risk in the future. We will see how long their properties are vacant before they begin begging for those families back. Im sorry, I'm done, just all of this is so heartbreaking. super late edit to add- the sheer volume of people I've met who were absolutely convinced coronavirus isnt real was mind blogging, especially since I lost several people close to me and know many others who were sick. These people came from all walks of life, all races and creeds. But all were positive it was all some big conspiracy. I didn't ever speak on it myself because how do you respond without anger when you've had people taken by it? Edited for spelling and clarity and to add some stuff.
• neonate 6y ago
  https://archive.is/YPLCF https://archive.is/YPLCF
• deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
• ogdusk 6y ago
  Whenever an article like this comes out, I can’t help but wonder if the reporters considered talking to people with more diverse backgrounds. Since the pandemic started, my partner and I have talked about moving to lower cost of living areas, but inevitably we have to ask ourselves: “what would it _really_ be like to live in <X small town> for people who look like us?” In an ideal world, decency and merit win out over appearance and race in terms of how people are treated, but unfortunately that’s not the reality for many folks in tech.
• momokoko 6y ago
  I think you have to realize this is San Francisco specifically. Not the entire Bay Area. A lot of people worked in places south of San Francisco and then commuted south because SF is basically the only city nearby that isn’t awful. But now that everything is closed down, all the good parts of SF are generally gone. Who wants to live in a cramped apartment with too many roommates and no yard? The trade was always that there were a lot of fun and interesting things to do and interesting people to meet. All of that side of the bargain is gone. With everything closed, most people would rather live in another part of the Bay Area where you can at least have a small yard and more space indoors.
  • neltnerb 6y ago
    I suppose it's also extremely reasonable to not want to live in close quarters with too many roommates you don't actually know all that well who may or may not be adhering to the same level of safety as you want to. But if that was it, why isn't NYC seeing the same? Are apartments actually bigger there or more commonly single occupant or something?
    • mapgrep 6y ago
      NYC is absolutely seeing the same. Many people went to homes upstate and will not come back. Rents are falling even if some of it is masked with hidden rebates (no broker fee, free months). It is going to be starkest probably in San Francisco though because 1. Rents were actually higher there to begin with (though they had begun to deteriorate) 2. The employers there are weighted more heavily toward companies able and willing to embrace remote work (that is, tech companies).
    • nemo44x 6y ago
      NYC is a ghost town compared to a year ago. There’s about 5% availability in Manhattan right now compared to about 1%-1.5% usually. Real estate markets around the city (NJ, CN) are on fire right now. People that were maybe thinking about getting more space now have the choice made for them. When you calculate the tax money you save it opens a world of possibilities. And it’s not like NJ or CN are low tax places! Lots of people moving to Texas and Florida as well I’ve read.
• rdlecler1 6y ago
  I’d be interesting in seeing a heat map where people are moving to (Permanently). Is it just to outside the Bay Area, outside (high cost) California, to other cities it to low cost suburbs.
• pyrrhotech 6y ago
  Not sure why anyone would choose to live in SF except for geographic-specific opportunities. It's a dirty, overcrowded and high tax pit, and everyone living there that isn't in tech or finance hates you for your success.
  • paul7986 6y ago
    Now with remote work there's no need to be in such an environment! My memories from each visit is the smell of urine and people who need help using bullhorns to scream their thoughts. I thought to myself this is the charm of San Francisco (circa 2008) I use to hear about in song?
    • draw_down 6y ago
      Things change, friend
  • tmpz22 6y ago
    It's still got pockets of extreme beauty where you can for the most part ignore the problems, there's also a strong contingent of "lifers" who would go down with the ship if a small comet was headed to destroy the city. Also a lot of people hanging on to their property values as their entire nest egg.
    • pyrrhotech 6y ago
      Oh yea, I agree the natural beauty is astounding. It's the extreme left wing, near Bolshevik culture and attitude that has destroyed it for me. I say this as a lifelong democrat.
      • 98Windows 6y ago
        lol wtf, how is SF in anyway extreme left wing or Bolshevik?
        • lotsofpulp 6y ago
• DevKoala 6y ago
  My company went remote first for all product and support roles. The people I spoke to are not only leaving the Bay Area, but the state. People are now buying property in Colorado and other states that are less expensive thank California.
• fermienrico 6y ago
  San Francisco (and the general bay area) is one of the shittiest places in the US I have ever lived. Not because there is trash everywhere, the infrastructure is crumbling, the goverment is dysfunctional, the housing mafia won't let high rises rise and provide public transportation for higher density - all these things are true, but mainly because it stays shitty in this feedback loop - more talent leads to more companies settling here which leads to more talent which leads to even more companies settling here. This feedback loop is the only reason SF bay area is surviving. Since for decades things haven't improved, it is not surprising why people are leaving. Once the feedback loop exits, it is a downward spiral from now on.
  • deepakhj 6y ago
    Maybe the problem is you and not the Bay Area.
    • randompwd 6y ago
      Wow, what an obnoxious reply.
    • Redoubts 6y ago
      No, it's the Bay Area.
• fanatic2pope 6y ago
  Good time to buy real estate.
  • paxys 6y ago
    Just before the bubble bursts?
• sftoss31337 6y ago
  As a native San Franciscan, I can only say, “bye Felicia!” With all the techbros and bankers fleeing home to connecticut or wherever it is they’re from, we can rebuild our destroyed community. Hopefully this will spread to San Mateo County and the Santa Clara valley. Startup brats have turned oir vibrant, freaky, hippy, radical home into a bedroom community for the most boring rich people in the world. Covid is a godsend.
  • justchilly 6y ago
    Those Felicias are the majority of the tax base, and fund all of the initiatives that rebuild communities. Falling housing prices -> falling property taxes -> less funding for schools. Even the new revenue tax passed last year to fund homeless programs is based employees being in SF, when they leave, no more funding. Not to mention all the money the Felicias pump into the local economy by ubering to brunch to buy their avocado toast and bottemless mimosas from local businesses.
    • sftoss31337 6y ago
      Shrug. Rationalize their existance all you want, but we will get by just fine. Do you know why San Francisco has always been expensive? Because it’s so worth it. We will do just fine without the parasitic green-eyed monsters who have invaded our homes since Web 2.0.
      • Nasrudith 6y ago
        That is a strange definition of parasitic - having a claim to it other than whose vagina they exited.
      • biztos 6y ago
        Actually SF was really inexpensive when I moved there in 1993. Apart from that I enjoyed your rant. :-)
      • justchilly 6y ago
        I think your anger is misguided. Those web 2.0 arent happy about the exorbitant rent either, nor are they the primary beneficiaries. That would be the native SF'ers/homeowners that were here before the boom (and who are still paying $25 a month in property taxes while collecting $5k in rent due to Prop 13). SF's budget has more than doubled in the past 10 years. For example, the city budget increased >$400mm from just higher property taxes in 2019 alone. https://sfassessor.org/news/strength-property-tax-helps-sf-recognize-415-million-additional-funding https://sfassessor.org/news/strength-property-tax-helps-sf-r...
• Ar-Curunir 6y ago
  The exodus is to the East Bay: rents are up 5-10% in Oakland, for example.
• adjkant 6y ago
  These HN comments don't seem to grasp that there are two distinct groups of people here, and these trends can/will counteract eachother: the ones that are in the city for work, and the ones that are in the city because they love cities. COVID creates an exodus of one, but people in the latter category are also moving into cities as well as prices drop and they are no longer priced out. HN folks love to complain about the lack of value of cities (SF in particular), but as someone in NYC, the pandemic has only affirmed that I want to be here and see value in it. Even in the limited state, so many things I have access to simply wouldn't be in other areas, and I know many people who moved away temporarily for economic reasons who are very much not doing as well mentally and are looking forward to being back in the city. I don't see why we have to polarize or categorize this trend as it seems like a win/win if this continues: people who don't like cities move out, that lowers prices, and suddenly more people who do enjoy city living can afford them. This has the potential to solve diversity issues in cities, both in class/culture (potentially slowing or even reversing gentrification) and industry (less tech people in SF). This sounds like it could be a second wave of white flight, sans racism, and I'm here for it. If you don't like cities, I am truly happy for you to move out, both for your own mental state and happiness and for freeing up space in the city for people who will be happier. How long this trend lasts as remote work lessens along with the eventual (macro) end of the pandemic, we will have to wait and see.
  • chrisco255 6y ago
    Do you mind giving examples of what you have access to in NYC when so many things are shuttered right now? As for "white flight" it's more of a "white collar flight" where people with money and resources and higher income remote jobs will leave as long as living conditions suck.
    • adjkant 6y ago
      > Do you mind giving examples of what you have access to in NYC when so many things are shuttered right now? Right now, I've basically reallocated my budget of city activities towards local restaurants, and I've been eating a ton of great delivery. As the cases have slowed, I'm cautiously considering outdoor dining. Either way, I'm eating great food right now. I live in Brooklyn, so Prospect Park (central park of the borough) is always nice for walks or distanced picnics with friends. My local neighborhood is also just generally pleasant for walks. Many outdoor farmers markets are still in full swing. There's an outdoor climbing gym in Dumbo that I can walk to from my apartment, and I go there now as well even. Full contact tracing, check-in/out, reservation system, the whole nine yards. Not many places have a large outdoor climbing gym. All of this is also powered by people actually following mask laws and it being summer. I'm fully aware winter is going to be less fun, but I'm ready to weather that and order lots of good delivery. > As for "white flight" it's more of a "white collar flight" where people with money and resources and higher income remote jobs will leave as long as living conditions suck. Well put, and I think that will be a big positive for cities if it continues.
• throwaway713 6y ago
  I’m in tech, but I like the Bay Area for what it is. I plan on working remote to be near family, but also intend to use the lower cost of living to save up and purchase a house in SF at some point later in life, hopefully to retire to. It’s a nice area and I think many people will be back after the pandemic (tech people or not); it just doesn’t make economic sense to be here now.
• Tiktaalik 6y ago
  Stories I'm hearing from people in the real estate industry in Vancouver is that the recreational property market is on fire right now, as tech workers realize that there is a very good chance that WFH options will be permanent and so accordingly they can buy some property on the Sunshine Coast, Tofino, or by some lake in the Interior and go work there for large parts of the year. The additional upside is that Vancouver real estate is so expensive that even many relatively wealthy techies are locked out of buying, so this is an opportunity for people to buy something.
  • elevenoh 6y ago
    I'm seeing a lotta condo dwellers who love cities in Toronto/Montreal/Calgary looking to move to dt vancouver since covid. Better walkability, climate & access to nature. When nightclubs, irl events & meetups etc. reopen, I think there'll be a rush back to healthy cities, as opposed to looking at remote spots. Humans tend to love irl connection.
• 01100011 6y ago
  Has anyone ever looked at the curves for the cost of public services vs the cost of living in a city? What I'm getting at is that if the tech workers flee SF and are replaced by average income earners and lower property values, will SF be more or less able to provide the basic city services it is currently strugging with? I suspect that the cost of providing basic services rises faster than CoL of an area, just by looking at CA as a whole. Setting aside the possibility of bad management, it seems that CA is incapable of providing basic services(reliable electricity, well maintained roads, water, sewer, housing, etc) despite being the 5th largest economy on the planet. Is CA a victim of its success?
• 627467 6y ago
  While couples and families are making (probably overdue) decision to live the city I don't seen the magnet effect to die down for younger and single people anytime soon.
• pdx6 6y ago
  I've lived in San Francisco for 15 years, and I won't miss these tech workers that are leaving. They can flee to their plot of land in Minnesota and make everyone out there angry instead when rents rise and their carpetbagger ideas show up on the local ballot. Anyone moving away isn't set on urban living and the type of community that's here. A city offers a mix of cultures, personalities, and ideas that don't form around people sitting at home taking meetings over zoom and hyping up the latest fad. Those that stay and invest in the downturn caused by the pandemic are the ones that belong here anyway. They'll be the ones getting once in a generation housing discounts, leasing cheap retail store fronts and warehouses, and building enriched relationships. It is a boom and bust town, and for the savviest entrepreneurs, a bust is worth more than a boom.
  • closeparen 6y ago
    I agree with a lot of this, but there is definitely no discount on housing right now.
  • paxys 6y ago
    Please show me these "once in a generation housing discounts".
    • iancmceachern 6y ago
      I expect they are coming, but not here yet.
    • fragmede 6y ago
      The recession from 2009 to 2011, as shown in this graph, is the "once in a generation" sort of thing. Unfortunately, we're on leading edge of seeing it happen again, arguably within the same generation. https://paragonpublic.blob.core.windows.net/dash-v2-blog-images/185982/slide13-condo.jpg https://paragonpublic.blob.core.windows.net/dash-v2-blog-ima...
• AIX2ESXI 6y ago
  Been a professional IT worker since 1999. Most of my sysadmin roles have always been on site with occasional remote work. Over the years, I've been able to swing working for a few weeks at a time while traveling abroad. Currently based in Los Angeles and my organization is allowing us to work remote. Looking to just move abroad to Ukraine and lower my costs of living while immersing myself into a new culture and escaping the discord in my homeland. Might never come back if remote work is not longer taboo for DevOps and Infrastructure admins. For those of you leaving the Metro areas, I encourage you to integrate in your new communities and be open minded. You will be welcomed if you leave your old ways behind and bring your talent and generosity to where you stay. Good luck! (That WSJ Article comment section is hilarious btw, don't prove them right.)
  • deleted 6y ago
    [deleted]
  • kilroy123 6y ago
    Born and raised in California and I've been in the tech industry since 2007. I have been living abroad for almost 6 years and couldn't recommend it enough. It requires some flexibility but it's been an amazing adventure.
    • vmception 6y ago
      I live in SF I bounced between hostels and luxury hotels and airbnbs in central Europe last year, it was about $600 per month. With the luxury hotels being subsidized by reward points. I pay over 10x more than that for pretty decadent living in SF. Not a complaint, I know what I'm doing. Just perspective. I would highly recommend living abroad indefinitely.
      • AIX2ESXI 6y ago
        Much appreciated. Looking into now. Need to use my Chase Sapphire rewards more or get an Amex travel card. Only Ukraine is open right now. Thinking about Odessa so that I can study the classical arts in between Sysadmin duties and life.
• WalterBright 6y ago
  > flee and rents fall But I was assured rents are not affected by supply & demand :-)
• williesleg 6y ago
  I love paywalled sites! Oh and welcome to the country, elite libtards! Please don't destroy it like the shithole you came from.
• felipemnoa 6y ago
  I think this is no biggie. You move out, somebody else will move in. This will probably end up being for the best. The city may end up more vibrant with the new blood coming in.
• VectorLock 6y ago
  Maybe there is a glimmer of hope of getting the old awesome San Francisco back, or has all the wonderful weird stuff been too diluted to make a comeback?
• steelframe 6y ago
  In my current company, I have a long history of exceptional performance, but the job I'm currently in is turning out to be really stressful. A role has recently opened up in my company that I am an absolute perfect match for. The problem is that they are requiring me to relocate to the Bay area for it. Relocating to the Bay area is completely out of the question for me, especially now that so many tech companies will let me work remote due to COVID-driven changes. The end result here is that my company is going to end up losing me to a competitor who can accommodate me working where I am.
• dmode 6y ago
  Since this whole thread is based on anecdotal evidence. I will offer mine. I work for a large unicorn where most employees live in SF or Bay Area. Almost none have left SF permanently. Many people moved in with their parents or relatives to take advantage of this WFH situation. Almost all of them plan to be back when COVID is over. I have several friends in SF and the one trend that is clear is that they are planning to move from their condos to homes with backyards within SF. But there is massive demand for homes, and they are not able to find anything under $2mn. I think this SF take is wildly premature
  • bezmenov 6y ago
    Nothing is more permanent than “temporary” arrangements; and nothing is more temporary than “permanent” ones.
• ozzyoli 6y ago
  San Francisco and cities like it are not oil wells; they are collaborative social efforts that ideally involve participation from everyone involved. Paying taxes (ie paying someone else to do something for you) is great, but you always have the invitation to roll your sleeves up and participate in more ways. Have you ever picked up trash? Or helped build a trail? Or gone to a city town hall meeting? Written to a local committee? Volunteered at the food bank? If you’re like me and have the privilege of affording to live here, before and during COVID, this is still a lovely place to live an interesting, fulfilling and content life. Be here, take part :)
• sushshshsh 6y ago
  Stuck here in NYC because landlord wanted a $13,000 break lease so I'm gonna stuff the apartment full of people and let him figure it out. Bye!
• myrandomcomment 6y ago
  It is not just SF, but the whole Bay Area. My power is out now for the 2nd time in 3 days. The first 2pm Friday until 3am Saturday and now since around 3am Sunday until ... well it’s 6pm and no end in sight. The infrastructure is crap here. I was on the edge before, but I am over now. 2 more years so the kid can finish school and we are leaving. While it has been hard managing a team without the ability to have a whiteboard session, we seem to be dealing with it. No reason to stay anymore. I just hope I can sell my stupidly over priced house for what I paid for it in 2 years.
  • tempsy 6y ago
    ...and now Lyft and Uber might be shutting off service in CA this week.
    • SQueeeeeL 6y ago
      I mean, they won't (because lost revenue). And if they do 10 other major companies will be starting in under a week who are willing to play ball with the gov
      • andreilys 6y ago
        How will those 10 other major companies make money when both Uber and Lyft have been deeply unprofitable?
        • SQueeeeeL 6y ago
          I mean, if there aren't competitors running their businesses at a loss, presumably some more expensive actually profitable competitors will be able to come in...?
      • fragmede 6y ago
        No need to wait a week, YellowCab made an app (YoTaxi SF) years ago, and was playing 'ball' with the government before it was cool.
      • 6y ago
• systematical 6y ago
  It's not just SF. Why am I paying $2,000 for a 1BR apartment in DC when I now work from home and there is nothing to do in the area? My lease is up in November and I am going to month-to-month while I decide.
• emmelaich 6y ago
  sfgate article : https://www.sfgate.com/living-in-sf/article/2020-San-Francisco-exodus-is-real-and-historic-15484785.php https://www.sfgate.com/living-in-sf/article/2020-San-Francis... and Zillow report: https://www.zillow.com/research/2020-urb-suburb-market-report-27712/ https://www.zillow.com/research/2020-urb-suburb-market-repor...
• always_left 6y ago
  I’ve said it before, shame so many of you don’t appreciate SF. It’s not perfect but it’s so much better than where I grew up. To be able to go to Marin, Yosemite, Tahoe, Big Sur, etc. for a weekend is truly amazing. Granted I’m privileged I can go there and I’m not a night life person, it’s truly a dream for me. The city also has many pockets of nature that are huge (presidio, gg Park). I hope you find a place that makes you happy though.
  • mtalantikite 6y ago
    Yeah, this article reminds me of the very worn out “is New York worth it anymore?” trope the New York Times publishes yearly. Or the ones they run profiling a young professional couple that has lived in the city for 5 years and is moving somewhere cheaper. Of course the pandemic is changing things considerably everywhere and it’s definitely different this time, but the cities are still the cities. SF has access to amazing nature and is a beautiful city. New York is going to be New York. They’ll come back. I’m not mad at having a cheaper, weirder, grittier city though. It’s the reason I fell in love with the city as a kid in the first place.
  • mav3rick 6y ago
    Been biking every day with mostly empty roads. Loving it. Especially GG park and Crissy Field.
  • yesimahuman 6y ago
    Plenty of people that absolutely love SF and also have zero interest in living there. The nature and beauty isn’t worth the other downsides to many (and some of us already get there regularly for work, at least pre-covid)
  • Zanneth 6y ago
    Thank you for saying this. I grew up in a rundown suburb in the middle of the desert, so I feel very lucky to be able to live in SF now. It’s not perfect of course, but I’m proud to be able to call this place home.
• diogenescynic 6y ago
  A few of my friends have been asked to take pay cuts and/or relocate out of SF so the company could avoid the city payroll tax. I imagine this will have ripple effects. I already see more office space for lease signs, for rent, and for sale signs than any other time I can remember. SF Bay Area is due for a massive fall in real estate prices.
• AzzieElbab 6y ago
  the dead golden goose bridge
• athiercelin 6y ago
  I left SF. I could afford living and buying in SF, the deal was just not worth it anymore. It was getting there before the pandemic. It just made it much worst much faster. I'm not selling my decision. Be adults, make your own.
• jmspring 6y ago
  As someone born and raised in the Bay Area, what I feel is the decline of SF (cultural venues, long time restaurants, neighborhoods changing character) some see as progress. The exodus is interesting ... I don’t see a return of those displaced by tech. But I hope there is some return to balance.
• m0zg 6y ago
  One thing about real estate (and therefore rents) is that it can go up _and_ down _at the same time_ in different segments. That's what I learned when buying my house at the trough of the recession in 2009 or so. Higher end stuff tends to be pretty much unaffected, but for the lower end the bottom falls out. So I'd avoid drawing any broad generalizations.
• aussieguy1234 6y ago
  I disagree with the notion that the "rent seekers" add value to the economy. All I can see is their parasitic influence on not only cost of living but also wider social issues like homelessness, which the rest of the economy then has to put up with and pay for
• lobster45 6y ago
  https://www.foxbusiness.com/technology/remote-work-is-reshaping-san-francisco-as-tech-workers-flee-and-rents-fall https://www.foxbusiness.com/technology/remote-work-is-reshap...
• nautilus12 6y ago
  Is there any way to get data about where these people are going?
  • fragmede 6y ago
    Uhaul publishes yearly migration trends, though they've not yet publicly shared data on where people are moving for 2020. here's the one for 2019 https://www.uhaul.com/Articles/About/19966/U-Haul-Migration-Trends-Top-25-Growth-Cities-Of-2019/ https://www.uhaul.com/Articles/About/19966/U-Haul-Migration-...
• spicyramen 6y ago
  For tech workers, living in SF is affordable, but not worth it. If you move to a place and pay 1/4 of what you pay u can save for that house way faster. Question is after summer 2021 what will happen. In South Bay specifically in North San Jose you star seeing an alarming number of offices/buildings for lease... definitely a crash in that area is happening soon.
• tekkiweb 6y ago
  exactly, remote work is reshaping the industries of San Francisco
• ChicagoDave 6y ago
  And corporate America will use this trend to push back against highly skilled technology salaries. It really shouldn’t matter where we work or what the cost of living is where we reside.
• tumanian 6y ago
  My partner and I capitalized on dropping rents and just moved into a large 1br with amazing views and garage in SF, for a marginal increase in rent. I am hoping that with tech moving out and commercial real estate getting cheaper, the new generation of artists will come to the city, bringing with them the weird culture, the creatives, the experimental. Its not the first boom of this town and after every bust the city heals itself to something even better.
• albacur 6y ago
  I've been wrestling with the idea of moving. If I do, I know it will be extremely difficult to convince myself to ever move back. I haven't found this city a desirable place to live for several years now, I'm priced out of the peninsula, and life's too short to spend hours commuting every day from the East Bay.
• kelnos 6y ago
  I honestly don't mind this at all. SF was a desirable place to live before all the techies (such as myself) crowded in, and it will continue to be after many leave. I'm sticking around; I love this city for reasons that can't be destroyed by a virus, despite all its problems. And it's not like other cities are doing great; at least in the US, all cities are being damaged by covid-19 to varying degrees. Why would I move to NYC or Chicago or Boston or Seattle or wherever else? They all have similar covid-related problems, and they're unfamiliar places where I'd have no or a minimal support network. I'm not a suburb/rural guy (grew up that way, not going back), so I don't feel the pull to move out of a city entirely. SF still has the same underlying problems it had before covid-19, and some of them have worsened in recent months. It's going to be a difficult few years getting out of this and figuring out what the next chapter will be, but this is home for me. For the people who are leaving (who are only here because they have to be for their job), that's fine; I'd rather be left with people who actually care about this place enough to stick with it.
• saos 6y ago
  I'm hoping to see something similar in London. I've already moved out of my flat share to live with parent. Hoping to move out of London all together. Thinking of moving to Bristol or Cornwall
• habosa 6y ago
  I moved out of SF in March. Not because of the virus, I just had a long-planned move (to London) with interesting timing. Unlike many of my tech peers, I love San Francisco and the Bay Area. It's a beautiful city and surrounded in all directions by even more beautiful places. The food, music, and art scenes are all amazing. Oh and it happens to have near-unlimited job options for my career of choice. The only reason I wasn't thinking about buying and staying forever was because the economy there makes absolutely no sense. Housing prices are out of control and the stock is of pretty low quality. Food, drink, and entertainment prices are also super high with no low end at all. NYC might be just as expensive but you can still get a dollar slice of pizza if you want it. You know SF is bad when all I could think in my first month in central London was "wow it's so cheap here". If things come down to earth a little bit, even if it's still a Top-3 most expensive city in the US, I think I'll go back to SF and stay there. And I think the current exodus is a win-win. People who were only there because their jobs forced them to be there were the source of a lot of the natives-vs-techies clashes which made the environment seem hostile at times.
  • clappski 6y ago
    > all I could think in my first month in central London was "wow it's so cheap here". I think you're possibly the first and last person to have that thought ;)
    • disgruntledphd2 6y ago
      I dunno, when I moved from Ireland to London, pretty much everything except rent and travel was much, much cheaper. That probably says more about Ireland than it does about London though.
    • robk 6y ago
      London cost of living is really lower than SF nowadays. It's pretty shocking but has been this way a while. Just avg eng salaries are lower but US expats can command a premium and live very well.
    • habosa 6y ago
      One huge difference you notice right away is groceries. Groceries in central London are half price or less what you'd pay in most of SF. Rent is definitely lower in London. That said salaries are lower in London too, so the relative "cost of living" may be higher here. I'm still thinking in America Bucks.
• angarg12 6y ago
  Less dramatically, I'm planning to move to a more rural part of England, where I will be able to rent a 2 bed house with garden for almost half of what I'm paying now for a 1 bed flat. But I'm fully aware this will be a temporary move, lest I give up most of my career prospects. Job opportunities, networking, contacts... all of them are way lower in the countryside compared to the big city. Also I do believe that remote workers are at a disadvantage in terms of career progression compared with collocated workers. Unless company cultures change significantly and it is possible to have the same career success fully remote, I won't be moving away for long anytime soon.
  • blunte 6y ago
    What I did occasionally as a long-term remote worker was live someplace lovely (and cheap), an then visit some meetups periodically to stay in contact with people.
  • s1t5 6y ago
    Similar situation - still sharing in London and thinking how for the same amount I can have a whole flat to myself somewhere else in the UK. It's kind of difficult to plan things if I expect to move back to London in 6 months or so.
• rorykoehler 6y ago
  It's all a storm in a tea cup. People leave the city -> rents go down -> new creative people are attracted by the cheap rents -> they create a new vibrancy -> people want to move back. Rinse and repeat.
  • Nursie 6y ago
    But it can be a multi-decade cycle. Also I've seen a few creative people that are admitting defeat on (say) Detroit.
    • rorykoehler 6y ago
      I think this cycle will turn around much quicker. There is a lot of pent up energy by the lack of social interaction we're all experiencing and that will explode once we take our foot off the brakes. I'd say 3-7 years until cities like SF & NYC are hot again. They've got advantages and a brand Detroit doesn't.
    • fragmede 6y ago
      One of my friends finally got unpacked after moving to Detroit and is working on his latest album, in his basement studio space that would be unaffordable after paying rent in Oakland.
      • Nursie 6y ago
        Good for him and I wish him luck!
• LatteLazy 6y ago
  It would be a really interesting world if people could pick where they lived based on where they wanted to live rather than where their job is. For a long time: we've had this dual blight of people having to leave places they love for work AND pushing out others who want to stay in the place they're moving to.
• api 6y ago
  Crises like these tend to pop bubbles. The "everyone has to be in one of 5 or 6 cities to have a career" bubble is popping. It's terrible for the inhabitants of these cities as it makes them unaffordable, and it's terrible for everyone else as it makes it impossible for them to accumulate wealth and drains the rest of the country of talent. The only beneficiaries are pre-existing property owners in these cities, and banks to some extent.
• throw51319 6y ago
  Cities are overrated. You can leverage your salary and live somewhere actually cool and carve your own path, while living like a king.
• capkutay 6y ago
  > There are signs the exodus is finally happening. Silicon Valley, America’s signature hub of innovation, may never be the same. I wouldn’t lump all of Silicon Valley in with San Francisco. The suburbs outside the city still enjoy a high quality of life. Not to mention companies like Apple, Facebook, Google spent billions on long term leases in Silicon Valley. They will have their workers come back to the office when it’s safe.
• deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
• shadowtree 6y ago
  Unpopular opinion - if you can simply move or work while traveling as an IC - you are not an essential worker for your company. The big productivity culling is coming, overhiring was so easy, all seemed justified. Careful of marking yourself as replaceable with remote labor. You might not like just how remote management will go :)
  • deleted 6y ago
    [deleted]
  • andreilys 6y ago
    As with most generalizations it falls flat when making contact with reality.
  • samename 6y ago
    This ignores all the companies that were operating fully remote before this.
  • JSavageOne 6y ago
    By that logic, who is an essential worker then?
  • lbotos 6y ago
    With all due respect to janitors, by your logic, janitors are the most essential workers at said company. In earnest, whom did you actually envision to be "essential" then? What will probably happen is the company will want to lower the workers salary based on the local market that the IC is operating in. If you aren't trying to wage arb, then you could keep your job, and potentially be happy.
    • sharkmerry 6y ago
      Im not OP. How do you measure level of essential-ness? How soon someone complains about that work not being done? Janitor would be pretty high up there. -Mark
  • mediaman 6y ago
• blablabla123 6y ago
  I never lived in the Bay Area but as a tech worker of course this was something that I had to think about. But to me the only point of living there seems to be work. I cannot imagine a job that interesting to me to give up anything else in live for it. To me the city planners messed up big time because making sure low-cost living remaining possible is essential for a great city and different kinds of people coming together. I hope this will be a learning but maybe change will also now be driven differently
• tzvsi 6y ago
  Will productivity decline due to remote work life shift?
• xtat 6y ago
  I spent the last decade in SV and the "rents are falling!" meme came up every year or so. Good luck :)
• chiph 6y ago
  The departure of people from the bay area was also discussed about seven months ago. At that time, I used the uhaul.com website to show the difference in renting a 26' truck from Mountain View to Dallas Texas, and the reverse. (U-Haul does dynamic pricing based on availability and demand). It was $4230 to leave California, vs. $846 to enter it. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22080410 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22080410 Looking at U-Haul's website today, that price has remained the same. Maybe there's a upper limit on their rate calculator? Or maybe demand has stayed mostly the same.
• EricE 6y ago
  Wow - lack of demand affect the price of supply? Who knew?!?
• brachika 6y ago
  I'm not even living in SF, but I can understand the reasons, and they are - who would guessed it, mostly money related. The last couple of months during the quarantine I saved more as double than I did in the two years before that.