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Uber is destroying thousands of electric bikes and scooters following Jump sale
- gpm 6y agoIf they're still running this business in the UK... why not ship them there? It's unbelievable that there isn't a better use of these than recycling them (but I do think that's mostly their mistake to make).
- MattGaiser 6y agoProbably different certification standards.
- deleted 6y ago[deleted]
- ahelwer 6y agoAll of this has happened before: https://www.theguardian.com/cities/gallery/2018/may/01/unexpected-beauty-china-bicycle-graveyards-share-bikes-in-pictures https://www.theguardian.com/cities/gallery/2018/may/01/unexp...
- makotech222 6y agoCapitalism, folks, its bad and dumb.
- zymhan 6y agoThe waste is just staggering.
- mindslight 6y agoZIRP in action. Gotta keep everyone working full time, for uh, some reason. At least these ones didn't end up in gulleys and ponds.
- dnautics 6y agocircular flow.
- mindslight 6y agoThis whole thread is full of people expressing lament over the glaring waste, but I suggested a concrete cause to consider and it was met with silent downvotes. Individuals don't generally destroy perfectly good bikes. It's the economy, stupid. ZIRP pushes capital to make far-off bets, in hopes that some might turn into recurring income streams. The e-rental industry is a glaring example of this in action, where "investors" are buying fleets of easily-affordable consumer goods, hoping to put enough on the sidewalk that people will trip over them and their credit cards will fall in. I know everyone in Silly Valley has been benefiting from this deluge of make-work, but eventually we're going to have to reconcile our goal of technology making us more productive with this regressive policy of "full employment". And sorry, I doubt the answer is obtuse "basic income".
- csunbird 6y agoThe bikes actually had very good performance, I would gladly buy one of them to be honest.
- tersers 6y agoThose things are tanks and I really enjoyed the low center of gravity making an easy ride.
- kube-system 6y agoHow would you charge it?
- dicknuckle 6y agoThere's always a way. It really depends on if the charge controller is onboard or in the dock.
- tgsovlerkhgsel 6y agoA way, yes. But it may be very expensive to design and manufacture a new charger, and they certainly don't want to sell the bikes to a bunch of techies who will stick random wires on them until 990 of them are happy and 10 generate news articles because they set their houses on fire with their hack.
- waterfowl 6y agoUnclear if they are charged by battery swapping or being taken to a third location -- but either way in a world where they'd sell them would they not include a charger?
- kube-system 6y agoThere are likely fewer chargers than bikes, and the chargers are not consumer friendly: https://therideshareguy.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/04/7b01981f-8041-4638-8802-6fb36957c525_IMG_2861.jpg https://therideshareguy.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/04/7b019...
- blendergeek 6y agoReminds me of the GM EV1.
- nness 6y agoIn the UK, Jump bikes were a far superior option over Lime. My experience with both was that Lime bike maintenance was very poor; with two-thirds of all rides requiring a refund due to the bike not functioning or having physical damage. Getting support and refunds from Lime was exceptionally painful. Uber also supported bike drop off in the East, where as Lime would silently fine you.
- partyboat1586 6y agoThe Jump bikes were just a different league. Smooth ride. Lime bikes for me were a last resort when I was doing the bike share thing. Half of them were broken, more physical effort than riding a decent road bike and no refund when the bike is broken. I'd rather get a Boris bike than a Lime.
- edimaudo 6y agoWhy not sell them at a discount?
- SpicyLemonZest 6y agoThere'd be significant costs to make sure all the bikes are safe and in good working order, and it sounds like they decided those costs exceeded what they'd get from selling them.
- olivermarks 6y agoRental culture. They don't want you owning one, just pay per ride.
- refurb 6y agoTypically it's liability. If they sold a defective scooter and someone got hurt, they could be in a world of trouble. Reminds me of that article about the ship transporting new Toyotas that tipped over. Half of the cars didn't even get wet, but they pulled all the cars off the ship and destroyed them. It wasn't worth the hassle of inspecting and repairing and still being at risk for liability.
- throwaway0a5e 6y ago>Typically it's liability. If they sold a defective scooter and someone got hurt, they could be in a world of trouble. This is/was something traditionally handled with a document signed by the buyer stating the sale is as-is. Tons of broken stuff gets sold all the time.
- kube-system 6y agoWaivers cannot always override laws that protect consumers, and these laws vary widely by locale. For one example: Where I'm at, if you sell some things "as-is" and don't disclose all known defects, you can be held liable for those defects regardless of your "as-is" agreement.
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- waterfowl 6y agoI've been sad about this sale for a few weeks -- was a pretty heavy Jump bike user in DC and they've just been sitting on the streets disabled -- vanished from the apps overnight. They were/are well built machines and I hope Lime or someone reactivates them. They also feel much more practical and safe than the cheap bird/etc scooters(having eaten shit on a bird before going over a curb) -- bigger tires for bump tolerance, more stable position, etc. We have another dockless ebike entrant in town called Helbiz and they're pretty nice, plus have an unlimited subscription option -- hoping they get traction and stick around - I have already noticed some of the bikes being seemingly vandalized on purpose(pedals ripped off and strapped in the basket) which is sad. It feels that the timing could be right with very limited Metro and Bus service(and widespread virus related public transit anxiety). edit: I could also see this business model as being self cannibalizing -- I'd never ridden an ebike pre JUMP and now would consider buying one myself for 1-2k. How many people who really enjoy the JUMP experience would similarly leave the platform for a nicer model, long run cheaper experience. Introduces other tradeoffs like security, having to take the bike home(so you can't really ride it out if you're going to be drinking), etc.
- heyitsguay 6y agoSame here! There was a brief golden time in Mt. Pleasant when it was starting to get nice out and there were Jump bikes everywhere. So convenient, so nice for doing socially-distanced wanderings of neighborhoods. What a waste! I hope something like them returns.
- Xavdidtheshadow 6y agoFor me, the biggest value prop was that I could leave them anywhere and didn't have to maintain them. I could buy myself one, but then I'd need to take care of it and make sure it doesn't get stolen. I'm not sure I'm interested in that.
- asdff 6y agoYou can buy renters insurance or something similar for your bike. Mine is covered for a few bucks a month.
- soylentcola 6y agoAs much as I would love a cheap e-bike to tinker with and restore (even if it's old), I can't say I'm surprised these are being recycled. On one hand, how would it benefit their/Lime's business to have loads of people owning electric scooters and bikes? On the other hand, there really are logistical and liability issues involved with distributing old gear in varying states of repair. It's a shame they don't do something like gov/edu institutions and auction off the stuff as-is. At least then someone could theoretically buy it up to do something with it.
- gowld 6y ago> On one hand, how would it benefit their/Lime's business to have loads of people owning electric scooters and bikes? It stimulates demand for cycling/scooting infrastructure. A few owners of scooters aren't competing with renters. > auction off the stuff as-is That's pretty close to what recycling does, for items that can't be practically used due to design issues. The metals and batteries are resold as scrap.
- Jemm 6y agoSell them in cities where electric bikes are not yet legal to start a grass roots movement to legalize them, which opens up a market.
- hosh 6y agoThis could have been a commuter vehicle for someone who could not afford a car. I get that the business is disincentivized, but this is such a waste.
- d6e 6y agoAgreed, but unfortunately legal liabilities create huge wastes like this. It's why grocery stores go through extensive efforts to ensure you can't recover their thrown out good that has reached it's sell by date but is still good.
- OldHand2018 6y ago
- neonate 6y agohttps://twitter.com/sanjaydastoor/status/1265667301526827009 https://twitter.com/sanjaydastoor/status/1265667301526827009
- adammunich 6y ago#uberwasteful
- toiletfuneral 6y agohell yeah, the hidden hand rules so much at being efficient
- travisporter 6y agoIs this one of those “we can’t donate food we are about to throw away because what if we get sued” situations? Could also be a tax write-off!
- danielfoster 6y agoDestroying the bikes would actually also be an equivalent write-off. Since Uber has no profits, it pays no taxes.
- kube-system 6y agoBusinesses are taxed on many more than things other than profit.
- sushid 6y agoIt's not that simple. Uber as a company definitely pays taxes at the city, state, and federal level.
- renewiltord 6y agoSF has a gross receipts tax, my dude. There are payroll taxes as well.
- ineedasername 6y agoI don't think you can write off expenses against payroll taxes.
- raywu 6y agoThere’s a company that helps companies do this for food: https://www.gocopia.com/ https://www.gocopia.com/
- nikanj 6y agoHow do they protect the restaurants against getting sued?
- Nextgrid 6y agoSad to see the waste, but nice to see these scummy companies making (yet another) loss which hopefully brings them a bit closer to bankruptcy.
- monksy 6y agoGiven how bad their riders behave on the sidewalk, how they try to block the sidewalk, and how they ignore boundries. I love the fact that scooters are being destroyed.
- jonny_eh 6y agoOn the other hand, if this means more cars on the road I think it's a net loss for everyone, including pedestrians.
- monksy 6y agoWhat's wrong with cars on the road? Too many cars on the road, that's a city/government issue. They should improve and increase public transit options. Scooters detract from public transit and from resources used to keep the city clean and/or enforcement from the problems they create.
- jonny_eh 6y ago> What's wrong with cars on the road? Pollution, traffic, accidents.
- monksy 6y agoWith cars those problems are easier to fix. (You need a license to operate a vehicle, but not a scooter). Scooters do produce pollution (someone has to dive more than the distance of the scooter traveled to recharge, plus the environmental cost of the batteries, and the shorter lifespan), traffic and accidents as well.
- akgerber 6y agoThe lower energy due to lower speeds and vehicle masses make ebike crashes far less severe than motor vehicle crashes. We have 40,000 dead a year in the US in car crashes, plus three million nonfatal injuries. I'm sure someone among your friends & family has been killed by a car crash. This can be improved with lighter cars, lower speeds, and pedestrian safety standards, but it can also be improved by fewer VMTs by getting more road users on intrinsically-safer vehicles.
- kikokikokiko 6y agoUber should not exist. If it's still alive after the pandemic, it will only be because of governments all around the world forcing the hand of people, with interest rates near zero or even negative, to pour money on unsustainable businesses like this. No company should exist that wastes as much money as Uber, with no path to profit shown till today. Americans 401ks are going to be devastated when this crazy easy money startup frenzy comes to an end on a (increasingly) near future.
- foolinaround 6y agothey should have shipped them to countries where the liability laws are not stringent, get them into the hands of kids who could tinker with them...
- sitkack 6y agoCould you imagine all the skills and the secondary economy having 10k of these bikes dropped on a 2nd world city? These things would rock Kathmandu.
- renewiltord 6y agoYeah, someone would accidentally puncture a battery and it'll burn them and then the headlines will say "Uber is dumping exploding bikes on Third World people".
- brunoTbear 6y agoI'm surprised they shipped them to North Carolina to be destroyed: I have seen very efficient programs here in San Francisco run by homeless camps.
- tylerchilds 6y agoExactly like when restaurants would rather throw away food instead of donating it. If they sell bikes to people that would otherwise use their service, they wouldn't have any customers. But they're wrong, people that own bikes aren't the same people that want to use a bike ad-hoc.
- jedberg 6y agoThat's not why restaurants throw away food. They do it because of liability laws. There is a super high risk of getting sued if you give away food and someone gets sick.
- tylerchilds 6y agoFair enough and about bikes?
- jedberg 6y agoSame problem. The risk of getting sued if someone injures themselves on the bike is too high.
- baq 6y agotax also could be an issue, it is in my country.
- AnthonyMouse 6y agoIn the US it's often tax-neutral for corporations, which is kind of unfortunate. If they donate it to a nonprofit the cost is deductible, but if they throw it away as spoiled food then it still is as a write off (cost of doing business). It basically means businesses can't get the deduction for donating their old stuff because they'd lose an equivalent deduction they were already getting. What would fix it is to let them deduct the value of the donated food/whatever instead of its cost, because then the deduction would be bigger from donating something than throwing it away. The result would be a huge reduction in taxes on businesses, because then everybody would do it and get a ton of tax deductions, but it could be well worth it for the enormous reduction in waste and increase in charitable donations. And it might not even cost that much in tax revenue, because it would be an alternative to a lot of the shell games corporations already play to reduce their tax burden, but in this case it would actually be helping somebody.
- julianozen 6y agoThis is shameful. How can nobody want to repurpose these bikes? Wasn't this program supposed to be environmentally friendly? Lebron James gives bikes away as charity to help kids have a sense of freedom and mobility. I dont see how there isnt a better solution here https://www.bicycling.com/news/a22613790/a-bike-saved-lebron-james-now-hes-giving-them-to-all-his-students/ https://www.bicycling.com/news/a22613790/a-bike-saved-lebron...
- ganstyles 6y agoHeavy Jump user here. They're perfect for commuting for me, dealing with hills and getting to and from the office, and then not having to worry about the bike once I got to the office. This news makes me sad.
- correction222 6y agoThis title is factually incorrect. Uber no longer owns the bikes. Lime does. The title should read "Lime is destroying thousands of electric Jump bikes and scooters after buying them from Uber" Other important details: - these bikes and scooters intentionally use custom parts to deter theft and make it so it isn't viable to strip them for parts. It will be impossible for the purchaser of a used bike to buy replacement parts or charging equipment. - the software used on these bikes is now owned by Lime - there is a liability and regulatory issues with selling devices with rechargable batteries. None of the battery parts involved in the bikes are certified for legal sale.
- basch 6y agoin exchange for Jump selling to Lime, Uber took an increased stake in Lime.
- eythian 6y agoAccording to the article: > However, there were also "tens of thousands" of older-model bikes that Lime did not inherit as part of the deal. and it's these.
- kube-system 6y agoThe title is correct. The article says that these are: > "tens of thousands" of older-model bikes that Lime did not inherit as part of the deal. > Uber said in a statement. [...] "[...] we decided the best approach was to responsibly recycle them."
- daralthus 6y agoAre you kidding, these bikes are strictly superior to Lime's in every perceivable way like robustness, speed, brakes, ergonomy, maintenance etc.
- Animats 6y agoLarge quantities of used lithum-ion batteries that have been in heavy street use are not a great thing to acquire. There are recycling companies; if you have more than 500lbs you can get a free pickup. When the HAZMAT truck leaves, you can breathe a sigh of relief.
- cbuq 6y agoFrom the end of the article, Uber explains why they recycled the old bikes not transferred to Jump in the sale, > But given many significant issues - including maintenance, liability, safety concerns, and a lack of consumer-grade charging equipment - we decided the best approach was to responsibly recycle them. Unfortunately seems to most responsible way to handle these bikes. I see the charging issue being a major problem. Trek just switched their rentable bikes to electric in my city, I wonder if they face the same fate. And settle down everyone, they are being recycled, not dumped in a hole.
- jrace 6y ago>And settle down everyone, they are being recycled, not dumped in a hole. Recycling is only slightly better than throwing away. There is no conceivable reason these could not have been re-sued. Reduce, Reuse, Recycle - is in that order for a good reason.
- deelowe 6y ago> There is no conceivable reason these could not have been re-sued. These seem like fairly conceivable reasons to me: maintenance, liability, safety concerns, and a lack of consumer-grade charging equipment
- labster 6y agoWhy sell people a product when you can offer them a service and make even more money? Reduce and Reuse are bad for business, making Recycle the only economically viable option. EDIT: @downvoter, can you tell me how our business climate doesn't suck this way?
- nmstoker 6y agoSo long as these things are allowed to be left out of proper stands then destruction is the best thing for them. Does seem a terrible waste though.
- dheera 6y agoThis should honestly be illegal, or at least there should be a massive financial penalty for destroying anything that can be useful to others instead of giving it away. There should be a legal framework for zero liability if the alternative is trashing.
- szhu 6y agoI see a lot of people commenting on how good the Jump bike design is. I almost missed this excerpt, but it looks like that design might be here to stay: > Lime's chief executive Wayne Ting has said he prefers the design of Uber's bikes and will deploy more of them in the future. > However, there were also "tens of thousands" of older-model bikes that Lime did not inherit as part of the deal.
- nlh 6y agoI will say - I was a very frequent Jump user in SF, and before you shout "waste!", if you haven't had the experience of riding on one of the older bikes past it's useful life, you should consider this: Jump switched over to a new model within the last year or two. Their older bikes - while yes, built like tanks - also aged like tanks (after battle). They were BEAT UP. The frames were mangled & scratched, the drivetrains were barely functional, and the brakes barely worked. My general strategy for riding a Jump was to find the closest bike with the highest serial # (assuming it would be a newer one), because getting an old one was just not fun. Anyway, this is all to say: While yes, almost everything can technically be repurposed, I wouldn't want to spend much time on an older Jump bike either first or second hand.
- toss1 6y agoThat is true for your value of time. For others, they may think it is fun to take three beat-up old bikes and turn them into one good one and a pile of recyclable parts. One man's trash is another's treasure... (& Yes, Uber has no excuse for this kind of nonsense. That is exactly what As-Is-Where-Is-Not-Fit-For-Any-Specific-Purpose warranty & law is all about. Repurpose before recycle...)
- nlh 6y agoGood points and makes sense!
- oliwarner 6y agoWhy isn't reuse mandated or incentivised in the same way that recycle is? This is such a colossal waste of energy. I can't believe that offering these without warranty and a stipulation that they be debranded before use wouldn't have got Uber more cash, and the planet a better outcome.
- sudoaza 6y agoEnvironmental costs should be included in everything, air pollution, water usage and clear lifecycle of the product including where and if it can be recycled. Mindless production is unsustainable.
- pdog 6y agoCan you update the title? The vital parts are being recycled (battery, motor).
- dbg31415 6y agoA lot of people are screaming about re-use... but man, these were never designed to be consumer bikes. You likely don't have a one-at-a-time charger, they probably have some sort of rack that charges 100 batteries at once. Similar issues around components... likely hard to get a replacement wheel, or what have you. And no way Americans wouldn't sue if they got a defective one. Totally understand, and impressed these didn't just go into a hole. Glad Uber is trying to recycle.
- diogenescynic 6y agoI wish we could fine them for this. All of that landfill waste and they could have at least given them away... Really a shame.
- peterwwillis 6y agoMultiple US municipalities have convened conferences and created sort of joint task forces to investigate the use of micromobility to supplement public transit. The scooters and bikes could have been donated to local governments who could then figure out how to support them, and used them for programs to help disadvantaged citizens get around easier. But that wouldn't really help Uber's bottom line I guess, and might involve extra work.
- 11thEarlOfMar 6y agoI still can't get over this one. I printed it and taped to the wall in my office. I'll ask folks to guess what it is. First guess is almost always some type of plant: https://cdn.theatlantic.com/thumbor/Vtmg6k-JNp0wpEtDo_RvOcoT-_Y=/1200x801/media/img/photo/2018/03/bikes/b02_904982860/original.jpg https://cdn.theatlantic.com/thumbor/Vtmg6k-JNp0wpEtDo_RvOcoT...
- 9nGQluzmnq3M 6y agoSpoiler: a massive pile of Ofo (yellow), Mobike (orange) and Bluegogo (blue) bikes scrapped after China's share bike boom went bust.
- beamatronic 6y agoHow does anyone justify that kind of waste?
- pojzon 6y agoFor a second it generated a lot of profit for shareholders - thats enough for most.
- 8bitsrule 6y agoWhat will it take to help these people see how incredibly irresponsible, undefendably wasteful and doomed this approach to product-making is? 'If it doesn't work for us we don't care about that'? Its akin to removing repairability from products designed to be inseparable from eternal profit-taking. What the much-touted 'free market' they talk up really wants is product that lasts and/or can be fixed or repurposed. I've never heard anyone say 'I love to buy crap' or 'I'm okay with buying a new one frequently'. What they mean by 'free' - of regulation - is unsustainable.
- lopmotr 6y agoSome people are materialistic - that is they place a high value on material things. It's often older people who grew up when manufactured goods were valuable. I'm like this myself. Other people aren't - they don't form an emotional bond with a used electric motor or an empty drink bottle. They just use whatever's available and focus on other aspects of their life besides material objects. I think this is more normal for young people who grew up with plentiful cheap products and all these renting and sharing services. For them, the value is in the use, not the possession.
- ineedasername 6y agoI take it that for security purposes to prevent theft, they probably used proprietary charging devices and some version of DRM to prevent opening the things up and self-servicing them if stolen.
- carapace 6y agoBecause they goofed on the design at the start: design for reuse people!
- mister_hn 6y agowhy not selling them, instead of destroying them?
- iphone_elegance 6y agoWho would rent a scooter if you could buy one for $50?
- mister_hn 6y agobut that's a massive waste of resources
- ChrisRR 6y agoWow, what a waste. Here in the UK at the moment it's difficult to get hold of "cheap" bikes, and even worse for ebikes. They could be selling those on rather than destroying them
- Proven 6y agoWhat's it to you? Their property, their business.