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Financial deplatforming is a monster, long-term trend to watch over the next decades. Deplatforming happens with sex workers. It also happens in the US marijuan

by aazaa 7y ago

Financial deplatforming is a monster, long-term trend to watch over the next decades. Deplatforming happens with sex workers. It also happens in the US marijuana industry. It happens with perfectly legal political content. The number of ways in which someone, somewhere will be offended by products or services for sale is growing, driven by a rapidly improving worldwide communication network and delivery system, and by people terrified of the change that brings. The response by PayPal and many others has been to cut service. With each case, the circle of people finding themselves cut off from the traditional economy grows. Bitcoin is often criticized for its lack of use cases. I find a very high correlation between the strength of this belief and lack of awareness of financial deplatforming in its many guises.

bcheung 7y ago
I've had several friends in the adult industry have their checking accounts closed at a several major banks as well. Traditional banking should definitely not be discriminating against fully legal activities.
- geomark 7y ago
  This is the thing I find very disturbing. That an industry as highly regulated and essential to every day life as banking can pick and choose based on management's moral choices.
  - deleted 7y ago
    [deleted]
  - short_sells_poo 7y ago
    It's not a moral choice. It's a case of the business is not worth the hassle. KYC rules mean the bank is on the hook if they are found to harbor ill gotten gains and the sex industry had a some troubles in the past, while not producing enough volume on an individual level to make it worthwhile for a bank to overlook things.
    - derangedHorse 7y ago
      That just seems like profiling at that point, since they’re basically rejecting service to an individual just because of their profession. Sure they might say that there may be a higher probability of a someone in the adult industry being involved in illegal activities, but is it fair to outright deny service on such a wide scale?
      - wincy 7y ago
        Profiling isn't illegal unless it's profiling against a protected class, right? It's like how I can't get cheap life insurance because I took antidepressants like seven years ago during a rough patch in my life.
        em-bee 7y ago
        profiling is illegal when the service is necessary to live. in germany for example, it is illegal to deny someone access to things like a phone line, electricity or water. (that is, even if you don't pay your bills, they are not allowed to turn of your service. instead, if they want the money, they have to sue you) i believe at this point, access to a bank account is also included in this. as things progress, more things will be added to the list. soon (if not already) internet access will be included.
        kortilla 7y ago
        That’s not related to profiling.
        bryanrasmussen 7y ago
        so I think what you mean is that profiling is immoral if the service is necessary to live, and in Germany (and other progressive parts of the EU) it is also illegal. I'm pretty sure these banks doing the profiling were in the U.S
        noobermin 7y ago
        The cop out for "protected classes" is one of the serious failures of the New Left in the US and past generation progressive attempts to wrangle with social issues. It's one of the reasons you have things like clamoring for representation in small dwindling influential places (the meme is "more trans women drone pilots") whilst ignoring systemic issues like how Flint, Michigan still doesn't have drinking water. I've made this argument before and made Americans (obviously) mad, but this cop out of protected classes allows you to actually discriminate against said classes, you just have to prove there is no malice in your heart, more or less. That is, you did not because they are black or not men, but because of the sanctioned reasons, then it's okay.
  - arminiusreturns 7y ago
    UBS and other bankers catering to major drug cartel money though... crickets and maybe a small percentage fine.
    - godzillabrennus 7y ago
      No crickets, they fully embraced it for survival. https://www.theguardian.com/global/2009/dec/13/drug-money-banks-saved-un-cfief-claims https://www.theguardian.com/global/2009/dec/13/drug-money-ba...
    - stuaxo 7y ago
      HSBC in Mexico.
    - Spooky23 7y ago
      UBS and HSBC aren’t US banks.
  - x0x0 7y ago
    I doubt it's moral choices and more fraud and dispute levels, ie the cost to service a customer.
    - deleted 7y ago
      [deleted]
    - jeltz 7y ago
      I am not convinced it is just that. PayPal also refuses to do business with online gambling which is an industry with low fraud levels (in the early poker days they were high, but that was a long time ago). Thankfully there are a bunch pf credit card processors who know how good customers online casinos are and most banks are fine too, so that industry is not deplatformed.
      - jeffasinger 7y ago
        Most of the online gambling operators in New Jersey take PayPal, though you usually have to use either a bank account linked with ACH or a balance you already have in PayPal.
        jeltz 7y ago
        European gambling operators don't. It is pretty much impossible for a European operator to get PayPal (there have been a couple of exceptions).
        ascorbic 7y ago
        The big UK gambling sites all accept PayPal.
        bostik 7y ago
        And I can guarantee they all had to go through a long, painful process with reams of paperwork to get there.
- onlyrealcuzzo 7y ago
  Can anyone explain how this even happens? Who could possibly threaten a bank over handling financial transactions for sex workers? And what could they possibly threaten the bank with? Even if it's some big business like Chick-fil-A... Presumably they only bank with one bank, and presumably the porn and sex work industry has more money at that bank than Chick-fil-A. How's this actually work? It's not making sense to me.
  - trhway 7y ago
    >Who could possibly threaten a bank over handling financial transactions for sex workers? And what could they possibly threaten the bank with? The SESTA/FOSTA for banking seems to be coming: https://www.thedailybeast.com/why-sex-workers-are-wary-of-elizabeth-warren https://www.thedailybeast.com/why-sex-workers-are-wary-of-el... "Warren’s joint effort with Florida Senator Marco Rubio in 2017 to introduce legislation that would enable banks to discriminate against sex worker, known as the “End Banking for Human Traffickers Act.” (Despite bipartisan support Warren and Rubio’s initiative was never voted on by the Senate, but the same bill has been reintroduced this year as H.R.295 - End Banking for Human Traffickers Act of 2019 and just passed the House Foreign Affairs Committee in March.) "
  - sandworm101 7y ago
    Amateur porn? User-uploaded X-rated videos? When things go wrong they go wrong fast. Professional studios know how to abide by all the various regulations, many of which change from one state (or even city) to another. Amateurs with webcams in their bedrooms do not. Just look at the "Girls do porn" fiasco to see why someone might not want to do business with an amateur-focused studio.
    - dredmorbius 7y ago
      That's not a ... relevantly fruitful ... search term. Have any relevant links?
      - belltaco 7y ago
        https://www.vice.com/en_us/article/qvgxvw/girls-do-porn-employees-charged-with-sex-trafficking-potentially-face-life-in-prison https://www.vice.com/en_us/article/qvgxvw/girls-do-porn-empl...
- Iv 7y ago
  More broadly, financial institutions should be accountable. Because, indeed, discrimination is illegal, but suing a bank for it is long and very difficult if your account is frozen.
- SlowRobotAhead 7y ago
  Talk to gun retailers that were shut down by Chase and Bank of America. Legal has nothing to do with it. There is an increasing degree of business that entirely revolves around feelings of people who yell the loudest.
  - beatgammit 7y ago
    This tells me we need more anonymity. A bank doesn't need to know any more about you than wherever is necessary to complete a transaction and report tax details to you and the government, and honestly that can be done with only a tax identification number (which should be separate from a Social Security Number). The same goes for payment processors, though payment processors may additionally need a company/individual nickname (for convenience in printing on receipts) and a bank account to deliver funds. I see absolutely no reason for an organization like PayPal or Chase to know who its clientele are, just whether they're legal from a tax perspective, unless the customer provides that voluntarily. And I could even see legislation preventing the collection of such data since it could be used to restrict access to essential services like banking. I think this gets us most of the benefits of cryptocurrency from a privacy point of view, but still maintains the ability of a government to track down fraud by cross referencing tax data with transactions. The only time someone need be connected to their bank account or payment processor account is if they're suspected of a crime, which would require a warrant. It shouldn't be possible, IMO, for payment processors to just refuse service based on dislike for the line of work the business owner is in. There are no restrictions on how currency may be used, so digital payments should be treated the same way.
    - oneplane 7y ago
      But then how would you know if you are processing stolen money?
      - netmonk 7y ago
        how do you know that the cashback the shop clerk is handing your right now for your diet coke purchase wasnt used three days ago for buying Heroin in the street ? We dont know and we dont care !
- RileyJames 7y ago
  This debate is currently brewing in Australia, except its against providing services to mining companies. When is right / wrong to boycott? And who should be allowed to? (Persons or companies) Context: in Australia the prime minister (Scott Morrison) is looking into laws to ban boycotts by companies (who are being compelled by people / public opinion)
  - baroffoos 7y ago
    Thats a really good counter point and I can't think of any way the situations are different other than my morals saying working for pornhub is ok but trashing the planet is not. Of course thats totally subjective and someone could be of the opinion that working for pornhub is not ok.
    - kortilla 7y ago
      Mining != trashing the planet. Also, given that there is literally no alternative to mining, how do your morals allow you to support mining companies by using their products?
      - baroffoos 7y ago
        The coal mines in Australia are totally unnecessary. Australia is one of the best countries in the world for the ability to be powered on renewable energy. Which is now cheaper than coal. Literally the only purpose for coal in Australia is political reasons now. Yes I know coal is used for the production of other materials but there is more than enough coal currently being mined for steel. We just need to stop senselessly burning it when there is limitless energy raining down on empty desert.
        brigandish 7y ago
        From what I know (and I don't claim to be an expert), solar panels require mining and also cause a lot of waste (what happens to a panel after its 20 year life cycle?). I've not heard whether solar farms would work in Australia - wouldn't the amount of distance be a problem? - nor whether they'd actually be any more efficient than nuclear. Certainly, I recently watched Michael Schellenberger's talk (it's in article form here[1]) and I was surprised at how destructive renewables seem when more detail is given about their implementation. [1] https://quillette.com/2019/02/27/why-renewables-cant-save-the-planet/ https://quillette.com/2019/02/27/why-renewables-cant-save-th...
- lostlogin 7y ago
  Considering the things that banks have financed in the past, the hypocrisy of this stance by banks is incredible. Everything up to and including genocide has been ok by them.
- IAmGraydon 7y ago
  Checking accounts or merchant accounts? Most banks shy away from processing credit cards for adult sites because the chargeback rate is sky high and it therefore presents elevated risk. It has nothing to do with discrimination.
  - tluyben2 7y ago
    Or just fix that system; here (EU) it is not all that easy to chargeback (and impossible in many cases) because payments are secured; if you yell fraud, they will start an investigation (mostly automated); if the IP you paid from was around your house, you filled in correct info, you did 3dsecure (which is used on all my cards now; I had a few that did not have it and they got frauded, but a simple check showed it could not have been me and they reversed them all; they now have 3dsecure too for that reason) which means you knew specific secret information, maybe have a token device and/or the phone of the card owner, they will decline the chargeback request. If you are in your country most of the time and suddenly there is a 1000E charge from a merchant in Dubai, they will block it and call you. The ease with which you can do chargebacks in the US is harmful in a lot of cases imho. I have been a merchant (of digital goods; gaming, not gambling or adult) and got annoyed enough of US chargebacks (including from Paypal) that we started doing annoying KYC and added very long waiting periods before product delivery for US customers. We had certain payment methods (bank, and there were some payment methods that do not allow chargeback) that had immediate delivery. That fixed it, mostly. It hurts sales, but I rather make less revenue and more profit than pay for product only to lose it to scammers.
    - barsonme 7y ago
      Pretty much everything you mentioned under "secured" payments occurs in the US, too.
      - tluyben2 7y ago
        Why is it so easy to charge back then? If it's secured then they know it was you... Unless you have a police report saying you were coerced, forced, something was stolen?
- Bombthecat 7y ago
  Forbidden in germany. There is literally a law, which basically says: everyone needs to have and is allowed to have a banking account.
  - odiroot 7y ago
    In Sparkassen. Deutsche Bank, Commerzbank, DKB, etc can easily reject you.
  - jhrmnn 7y ago
    I think it is en EU-wide regulation. https://ec.europa.eu/info/business-economy-euro/banking-and-finance/consumer-finance-and-payments/retail-financial-services/access-bank-accounts_en https://ec.europa.eu/info/business-economy-euro/banking-and-...
  - noobermin 7y ago
    Which further highlights how many "problems" that tech people in the US have tried to solve (transit->uber, various health care start-ups, etc) are essentially due to the failure of the US state to function properly or even focus on the right thing.
    - mola 7y ago
      Yup, it seems US citizens pay crazy amount of hidden tax because of inefficiencies caused by fanatical anti government propaganda. This isn't only about freedom it's about keeping power in certain hands. Too bad it's being exported everywhere
      - hoseja 7y ago
        I suspect there's also a healthy dose of not less fanatical social Darwinism thrown in there.
      - pluma 7y ago
        Just like how most public healthcare proposals in the US while technically raising taxes would end up leaving the individual with a much lower financial burden because of the ridiculous amounts of money Americans pay for healthcare and medication.
- ryanSrich 7y ago
  Seems like an interesting opportunity for a new bank — be the bank for porn, cannabis, etc.
basch 7y ago
wheres the disruptive fintech for these underbanked? Sounds like a gold mine for the right marketing team.
- hn_throwaway_99 7y ago
  There are other payment platforms that still work here. The problem with most of these alternative platforms is their fraud rates are absolutely through the roof. For example, Green Dot and NetSpend are companies that provide pre-paid, secured credit cards online, and as someone who worked at a consumer fintech company, one of these cards coming through automatically raised the fraud score because we had so many issues with payments from these cards.
- kfichter 7y ago
  SpankChain
- m-p-3 7y ago
  That fintech will get blacklisted by the other, bigger players. Not sure what else can be done to disrupt fintech to that point.
  - im3w1l 7y ago
    In the worst case, you could set up brick and mortar shops for getting dollar bills in and out.
    - vanniv 7y ago
      I think you've just stumbled on the reason that folks are so determined to move us to a "cashless society" In a cashless society, once the folks in charge deplatform you, you cease to be able to engage in any transactions of any kind, and you basically cease to exist.
      - im3w1l 7y ago
        I agree that that is a consequence. But I don't think it's the primary motivation. When I talk to people around me about cash vs cards everyone agrees that paying with card is so much more convenient, especially when you just have to gently tap the reader with your card. I know many people who have the phone case with space for a few cards. They don't even carry a wallet anymore. They have nowhere to put bulky coins or even bills. Everything else: Decreased risk of being pick-pocketed, decreased risk of money vans being robbed, increased surveillance, increased control. All those are just secondary concerns.
Daishiman 7y ago
Bitcoin isn't criticized for this being an invalid use case, because it's totally valid. It's criticized because it's useless for this use case, people involved in this scene in practice don't care about it to any serious degree beyond it being a talking point, and because anything for legally working around financial deplatforming still needs strong interfacing with the rest of the system as well as compliance with legal regimes, which BTC has nothing to say on that. In fact, you can make your own payments platform denominated in USD and that's as useful as BTC for legal activities. So why go through the extra steps?
- hndamien 7y ago
  Or you could not go through any of the steps of making a payments platform and just accept BTC.
  - Mate2Mate 7y ago
    Or just accept Nano, and not have any hassle at all! Just put a Nano QR code on display and voila! - Instant notification of immutable, secure payments from anyone in the world. No complexities, no wait for confirmations, no unreliable unsafe Lightning Network channel complexities.
  - Daishiman 7y ago
    And then you have to find a seller for BTC and deal with that hassle yourself.
    - acchow 7y ago
      Unless other things were priced in BTC...
      - bduerst 7y ago
        Yes, if everyone used BTC that would solve the problem of people using BTC.
    - 7y ago
Amezarak 7y ago
Bitcoin’s use case for this is limited. If I were to purchase a product or service that might be subject to deplatforming, it’d better be anonymous, or I risk facing the social sanctions instead. “Amezarak’s bitcoin address sent 10BTC to a sex worker, fire him” is not a much better situation.
- x220 7y ago
  That's why you don't use a shitcoin, you use Monero.
  - cameronbrown 7y ago
    JFC, this tribalism in the cryptocurrency space is harming adoption. "Shitcoin"? Please grow up..
    - x220 7y ago
      Before you criticize me for calling a dangerously flawed currency a shitcoin, you should criticize those who use "bitcoin" and "cryptocurrency" interchangeably. Bitcoin was fine back in the day but is terribly flawed in 2019. Are the fanboys never going to move beyond this?
  - zelly 7y ago
    I heard sex workers actually do use Monero when they use crypto (not BTC). It's funny how the supposedly bad UX doesn't matter when there's a compelling reason to use it.
    - x220 7y ago
      That's really interesting.
- Mate2Mate 7y ago
  You can have more than one Nano address - including one kept for adult purposes.
Nasrudith 7y ago
Marijuana is separate from the deplatforming in the traditional sense because federal banking laws and the DEA's stubborn Schedule 1 tautology when it clearly has medical uses are to blame as opposed to uncooerced choices.
- s1artibartfast 7y ago
  That depends on if the bank in question is subject to the federal regulations.
  - sailfast 7y ago
    Pretty sure every bank in the United States is subject to federal regulations.
  - paulddraper 7y ago
    Do you actually use a non-FDIC bank?
    - s1artibartfast 7y ago
      Yes, along with 100 million other Americans who bank with credit unions.
cft 7y ago
IRS treats Bitcoin as property. Accordingly, the recipients need to report every bitcoin transaction on Schedule D and calculate its cost basis ( appreciation or depreciation of Bitcoin). I am not talking about the reporting of the cumulative income, but the additional requirement of reporting of each Bitcoin payment or disposal. Say you received 0.0001 BTC held it for 5 days and then converted to USD. These are two taxable events, not one, with the requirement of calculating BTC appreciation between these two events. Now multiply this burden by every transaction. In my opinion, IRS successfully killed BTC use in the US by treating it as property rather than currency (for currency FX, transactions under $200 are exempt from cost basis reporting on schedule D)
- why_only_15 7y ago
  Is the IRS going to seriously audit you for the $10 in taxes you should have paid because you held some BTC for a week? I can see that being an issue at institutional scale, but for small users it seems unlikely it would ever be enforced.
deleted 7y ago
[deleted]
dwighttk 7y ago
> It also happens in the US marijuana industry. That's because it is still federally illegal
- guywithahat 7y ago
  Yeah I think there’s an issue with legal sex or political content being deplatformed, but if you want to stop deplatforming weed you should focus on actually legalizing it first lol
na85 7y ago
But Bitcoin won't solve deplatforming, because the existence of Bitcoin doesn't preclude a bank from deplatforming you. Until Bitcoin is ubiquitous (doubtful this will occur in my life time) we are still vulnerable to deplatforming when we go to exchange btc for fiat.
- stale2002 7y ago
  My bank isn't deplatforming me, when I transfer money from coinbase, though. So this is already a solved issue. They aren't deplatforming me right now!
  - 2muchcoffeeman 7y ago
    Are you a sex worker?
    - 2muchcoffeeman 7y ago
      I’m being down voted, but sex workers are some times deprived of bank services because of their jobs. Literally told to take their banking else where. How does using crypto help? Does it’s use suddenly make you immune from banks finding out your source of income? https://www.sbs.com.au/news/banks-accused-of-slut-shaming-for-refusing-financial-services-to-sex-workers https://www.sbs.com.au/news/banks-accused-of-slut-shaming-fo...
      - stale2002 7y ago
        The answer is that crypto transactions are censored much less frequently then PayPal transactions. That's why it helps. PayPal censorship is much more common than crypto censorship. > Does it’s use suddenly make you immune from banks finding out your source of income? No, it doesn't make you immune. Being 100% immune to anything at all is literally impossible. But it seems like it makes it less likely.
        2muchcoffeeman 7y ago
briandear 7y ago
> It also happens in the US marijuana industry Most of the marijuana industry is illegal in the US. States making it legal doesn’t change the Controlled Substances Act. As banking is federally regulated, banks don’t have the freedom to knowingly allow illegal businesses. Porn however, is legal, and deplatforming a legal product/business is wrong in my opinion. To be clear, I am not suggesting marijuana should be illegal at the federal level at all, only that it’s not inconsistent that a bank not serve those customers — after all they would then become criminals themselves by facilitating the moment of funds for a product that is illegal.
- 9nGQluzmnq3M 7y ago
  Porn is legal if everybody involved is above age and gives consent and is capable of giving consent at the time and that consent is properly recorded and the resulting content is not judged criminally "obscene" by some judge in a hick town. Which is way too many ifs for most banks, particularly given the meager returns on offer.
  - vageli 7y ago
    > Porn is legal if everybody involved is above age and gives consent and is capable of giving consent at the time and that consent is properly recorded and the resulting content is not judged criminally "obscene" by some judge in a hick town. Which is way too many ifs for most banks, particularly given the meager returns on offer. By why is the bank on the hook here? Is the ISP on the hook for serving the content? If the bank followed the regulations around KYC why would they be liable?
1337biz 7y ago
To be honest I appreciate PayPal doing this. The more we see prominent cases of deplatforming, the more people are going to take it as a serious problem. One can always hide behind some pr bullshit when it comes to political free speech and so on. But porn it is finally something enough people care about to take it seriously.
- BLKNSLVR 7y ago
  It depends if the de-platforming is happening for reasons of social outrage / offense (bad) or commercial reasons (maybe not 'good' but at least 'better'). If it's about this particular industry sub-group having a much-higher-than-normal rate of fraud or returns or buyers remorse or whatever causes more hassle to PayPal's processes than they're worth, then that makes commercial sense.
  - listenallyall 7y ago
    it's mostly about ill-conceived laws intended to protect vulnerable people, which in fact harm those exact people
    - Rapzid 7y ago
      A lot of the laws were simply passed under the guise of helping people but were in fact passed to further peoples moral agendas. Easy tell that's the case when data comes along that contradicts the laws efficacy..
  - 1337biz 7y ago
    I don't even think people are differentiating that much about deplatforming. I am fine if the sentiment growth that thinks'those bad corporation have too much power and can't just start banning users without a clear cause'. The free speech issue is to narrow.
LoSboccacc 7y ago
some of the greatest damage the progressives have done to our society came from convincing people that the slippery slope is a fallacy
xtracto 7y ago
It will be funny that, as with other technologies from the past, pornography will be the use case that will finally bring cryptocurrencies to widespread adoption in society
- skunkpocalypse 7y ago
  Halftone magazine printing? Check. Videocasettes? Check. Internet? Check. Thank heaven for prurient smut, driver of all great technology. Without it we would still be in the stone age.
  - bjoli 7y ago
    Don't forget the role in testing censorship laws. It is fantastic in a way. Always a wet finger in the air to see in which direction it is blowing, constantly asking "how can I make money from this?".
  - bsder 7y ago
    You forget laserdiscs, smaller videocameras, DVDs, and online payment systems ... It's also probably the only thing really using VR/AR right now to any significant degree. It used to be that there was a porn convention at the same time as CES in Las Vegas. For a lot of years, the porn conference was the better of the two from a technology standpoint.
    - arkh 7y ago
      VR, 4k, interactive use of connected devices. We're getting to Demolition Man levels fast.
steelframe 7y ago
As a few others have already pointed out, marijuana is a Schedule 1 drug, and so no bank that operates at a federal level can touch it. That said, I've heard that the ATMs in recreational marijuana shops are themselves significant sources revenue for the shops.
ericb 7y ago
Bitcoin isn't a currency that can fix this. Bitcoin is either censorable (lightning network) or unaffordable when used heavily with slow confirmations and ridiculous fees. The lightning network is a joke--a frankenstein "Engineering UI" layed over a system to route around bad development decisions re:block size.
- turkeytotal 7y ago
  What sort of censorship are you referring to? If taproot-schnorr is deployed and adopted, cooperative channel operations will look exactly like normal single-sig transactions. As for routing censorship, if one node fails to route for me, I can open a channel with a different node and route around them.
  - ericb 7y ago
    You can be deplatformed from major node hubs, especially considering the design makes the hubs money transmitters from a US legal standpoint. You can get your channel closed out and be forced to pay the transaction fee, which may be higher than the value in your channel. None of these are things people want to spend money worrying about.
- grubles 7y ago
  Lightning is not censorable as participants in a payment channel route cannot know the sender nor receiver of a payment. It's similar to tor relays.
  - spookthesunset 7y ago
    Lightning is also a pile of vaporware. It is even more Rube Goldberg than bitcoin. It’s only purpose in the bitcoin ecosystem is so shysters selling the dream can claim “no really, bitcoin can scale!!!! Lightning is just around the corner!!!”. (Of course they don’t mention the irony to bitcoin scaling is not to use it)
    - xur17 7y ago
bigpoppa 7y ago
Screw BTC, they could use XRP, it's virtually a stable coin.
epicureanideal 7y ago
Does anyone know of any solutions to this? Are there any payment options that have so far been immune to this issue? Maybe it's worth setting up alternative payment methods, even if the percent they charge per transaction is much higher, just to ensure stability of access to funds.
- guywithahat 7y ago
  Yeah, things like subscribe star exist in part for this reason, and there are plenty of groups that discuss alternative technology, such as this news org https://reclaimthenet.org/ https://reclaimthenet.org/ or this group https://gab.com/groups/377 https://gab.com/groups/377 (though the last two mostly focus on political content)
- Mate2Mate 7y ago
  Yes - Nano fixes this. Nano is instantly fully-confirmed, secure and immutable. All a model needs to do is display a Nano address (or QR code) in their webcam backdrop, or on their website. They get instant notification of payments, so have the option of instantly reacting to them. So they can be interactive with their viewers in real-time. Nano is feeless, unlike Bitcoin, and will always be feeless. (Bitcoin's fees jumped to $6.25 on June 28 2019 so saying Bitcoin is currently 'cheap' doesn't really cover that.)
harry8 7y ago
Ask Julian Assange [1] how this works with political speech and journalism. Though I've probably provoked "the hate" by naming the major example rather than thought about the underlying principles and what's at stake. [1] https://wikileaks.org/Banking-Blockade.html https://wikileaks.org/Banking-Blockade.html
- loup-vaillant 7y ago
  > Ask Julian Assange I wish. But I'm afraid no one will be able to ask him anything, ever.
samstave 7y ago
It would be terrific if as much energy would be spent on shutting down human sex trafficking finances for children and black and international markets. Certainly there is some % of pornhub sex workers that are there against their will, but the dark web child porn networks are what our primary focus should be going against.
sieabahlpark 7y ago
I like how this is spun in a way as if PayPal has a vendetta against specific forms of income alone. Nevermind the sex industry is probably the biggest attractor for fraudulent charges and overall sketchy business.
Spooky23 7y ago
PayPal is an accessible platform that works is a wide variety of scenarios — it’s almost unique in that respect. Most forms of sex work are illegal in the US and other jurisdictions, and sites like PornHub are compliance nightmares where all manner of sleazy or illegal actions are likely happening. PayPal doesn’t want to be the financier for the next scandalous “amateur” producer.
- Mindwipe 7y ago
  "Most" forms of sex work aren't illegal in the US, or indeed most territories.
dragonwriter 7y ago
> It also happens in the US marijuana industry The US marijuana industry is, under federal law, entirely criminal, so that's kind of understandable, even if the underlying law is arguably undesirable.
cable2600 7y ago
This is Big Brother type censorship. Anyone they disagree with will get shut out of Paypal, Banks, Credit Cards, etc. There was Hatreon but Visa canceled their services for them. I agree the porn industry is legal and nobody forces people to watch Pornhub, now I doubt the future of Pornhub. I don't use it but I support those who do under the freedom of speech.
- madamelic 7y ago
  >now I doubt the future of Pornhub There is one absolute in the world: porn will exist. Look at every technology and one of the first adopters is porn. Porn has chosen the winner of most battles in tech.
paulddraper 7y ago
PayPal has also deplatformed gun dealers. No firearms, firearm parts, or ammunition. [1] [1] https://www.paypal.com/us/smarthelp/article/What-is-PayPal%E2%80%99s-policy-on-transactions-that-involve-firearms-FAQ585 https://www.paypal.com/us/smarthelp/article/What-is-PayPal%E...
- Zak 7y ago
  This is relevant to the argument that Paypal is not merely responding to financial risks, but using its platform to impose its worldview. Guns are highly regulated in the US. Someone violating those regulations in the context on an online business is usually guilty of a felony, and has a high probability of being prosecuted. To my knowledge, guns don't have a high rate of chargebacks, as they involve a papertrail with an in-person pickup requiring government-issued ID and a background check.
  - paulddraper 7y ago
    Ammunition sales don't usually have those requirements. In most states you can buy it online just as easily as a case of beer. But yes, you are correct.
  - ec109685 7y ago
    At a gun show, two individuals could use PayPal to conduct a sale (if it was allowed on their platform), without any background check or government-issued ID.
    - Zak 7y ago
      They could, or they could list guns for sale on a classifieds site like Armslist and meet in private. People could use Paypal for such a transaction regardless of the terms of use, though trying to use the dispute resolution might result in both parties losing their accounts. In any case, it's not a meaningful financial risk for Paypal. It might be a risk of bad press, but "criminal pays for gun with Paypal and uses it to commit a murder" probably isn't actually going to result in many people not using Paypal.
octocop 7y ago
I totally agree with you and I also believe money(currency) should exist in it's own layer, beyond the control of corporations and governments.
qxga 7y ago
Bitcoin would be great for this in theory, but the problem is that customers will not pay you in Bitcoin. People want their porn and they want it now, that's why they're paying. If you don't make it practically seamless for a layman to pay you for your porn, they're either pirating it or looking elsewhere. Sure, a few people might pay, but you're looking at probably a 50-75% revenue loss, best case.
badrabbit 7y ago
How do people get bitcoin? Pay with a credit card? If so, btc exchanges can ban you still based on the name on the card. I tried other means such as money transfer and cash gift cards, but the exchange rate can mean to pay for $100 I have to spend $3-400!! A proposal: sell btc giftcards. Each card will have a qr code which is a url that allows download of a wallet (with priv key) where the URL is active after payment. You can transfer the funds to your permanent wallet or spend it directly. Maybe you can even use it to pay for IRL goods somehow. Either way, the participation barrier is lowered. I heard of btc ATMs as well but I can imagine carrying one more giftcard is easier for stores than adding an ATM.
stiray 7y ago
This practice is getting seriously annoying in scope of current events like google going into banking bussiness. One part are privacy applications but even worse is that suddenly pulling the application from play store using aurora (3rd part app for those that dont want google mobile services spyware on the phone) could cost you bank account which google will surely tie to google account. This is not good, we are beeing pulled to distopia at progressing rate.
pluma 7y ago
I'm with you except for conflating right wing propagandists with sex workers and the cannabis industry. Right wing propagandists are rarely deplatformed compared to the other two groups and when they are it's generally for spreading conspiracy theories (remember that people have already died because of Pizzagate and QAnon "truthers") or inciting (racial/religious/homophobic) hatred. The difference is that right wing propagandists are also a lot more vocal than the other group (or left wingers for that matter), skewing the perception. There's a widely known joke about how many comedians have shows on mainstream platforms with titles like "Cancelled" or "Triggered", complaining about "things you can't say anymore". Also see the "Intellectual Dark Web" whose whole shtick is being "deplatformed" by academia and the mainstream while having a massive mainstream media presence.
raxxorrax 7y ago
Printable cash for internet transaction would be nice... Honestly, the behavior of paypal is abysmal and I wish there to be a real alternative. I despise credit cards and would like to have more options. I doubt I will ever pay anything for porn, but there are a lot of content creators that can only receive money via paypal/credit card. I do actually think a government should have some control over its currency, but if the institutions implement their own arbitrary rules, solutions like Bitcoin are the best alternative.
- vorpalhex 7y ago
  > I doubt I will ever pay anything for porn, but there are a lot of content creators that can only receive money via paypal/credit card. A lot of porn models are becoming the content creators now. The line between your favorite adult actor and your favorite youtuber is growing thinner every day. Which makes us wonder if one near day we'll see amateur adult content with sponsored products "... brought to you by Questionable VPN!"
  - raxxorrax 7y ago
    They certainly are content creators. Not really a fan of porn streams though. Prostitution is legal in my country but I wouldn't want to visit one. It is a large industry but it isn't ubiquitous because of legality. So porn models would probably be a thing even if all payment providers stopped their service for porn. It would just be completely counter productive since this form of sex work is probably as safe as it can be. And any life style decision shouldn't be dependent on payment processors.
throwaway857384 7y ago
There is this guy I watch on YouTube, he had a Patreon account and a BTC address. I don't want to sign up for Patreon, so I sent him BTC. The great thing about BTC is you can send it so easily without going through all the hoops other 'systems' need. Sure, it isn't so easy to get started with BTC, but once you are in, it is a breeze.
asjw 7y ago
Bitcoin is useless for this use case At a certain point they will start to ask you "where did you get this coins?" because sooner or later you'll have to convert them to real currencies Cash is still a better option, there are plenty others: rechargeable CC, gift cards, vouchers, etc etc that work better than bitcoin, require no setup, no knowledge and can be used without hassles.

by aazaa 7y ago

bcheung 7y ago

I've had several friends in the adult industry have their checking accounts closed at a several major banks as well. Traditional banking should definitely not be discriminating against fully legal activities.

geomark 7y ago
This is the thing I find very disturbing. That an industry as highly regulated and essential to every day life as banking can pick and choose based on management's moral choices.
- deleted 7y ago
  [deleted]
- short_sells_poo 7y ago
  It's not a moral choice. It's a case of the business is not worth the hassle. KYC rules mean the bank is on the hook if they are found to harbor ill gotten gains and the sex industry had a some troubles in the past, while not producing enough volume on an individual level to make it worthwhile for a bank to overlook things.
  - derangedHorse 7y ago
    That just seems like profiling at that point, since they’re basically rejecting service to an individual just because of their profession. Sure they might say that there may be a higher probability of a someone in the adult industry being involved in illegal activities, but is it fair to outright deny service on such a wide scale?
    - wincy 7y ago
      Profiling isn't illegal unless it's profiling against a protected class, right? It's like how I can't get cheap life insurance because I took antidepressants like seven years ago during a rough patch in my life.
      - em-bee 7y ago
        profiling is illegal when the service is necessary to live. in germany for example, it is illegal to deny someone access to things like a phone line, electricity or water. (that is, even if you don't pay your bills, they are not allowed to turn of your service. instead, if they want the money, they have to sue you) i believe at this point, access to a bank account is also included in this. as things progress, more things will be added to the list. soon (if not already) internet access will be included.
        kortilla 7y ago
        That’s not related to profiling.
        bryanrasmussen 7y ago
        so I think what you mean is that profiling is immoral if the service is necessary to live, and in Germany (and other progressive parts of the EU) it is also illegal. I'm pretty sure these banks doing the profiling were in the U.S
        noobermin 7y ago
        The cop out for "protected classes" is one of the serious failures of the New Left in the US and past generation progressive attempts to wrangle with social issues. It's one of the reasons you have things like clamoring for representation in small dwindling influential places (the meme is "more trans women drone pilots") whilst ignoring systemic issues like how Flint, Michigan still doesn't have drinking water. I've made this argument before and made Americans (obviously) mad, but this cop out of protected classes allows you to actually discriminate against said classes, you just have to prove there is no malice in your heart, more or less. That is, you did not because they are black or not men, but because of the sanctioned reasons, then it's okay.
- arminiusreturns 7y ago
  UBS and other bankers catering to major drug cartel money though... crickets and maybe a small percentage fine.
  - godzillabrennus 7y ago
    No crickets, they fully embraced it for survival. https://www.theguardian.com/global/2009/dec/13/drug-money-banks-saved-un-cfief-claims https://www.theguardian.com/global/2009/dec/13/drug-money-ba...
  - stuaxo 7y ago
    HSBC in Mexico.
  - Spooky23 7y ago
    UBS and HSBC aren’t US banks.
- x0x0 7y ago
  I doubt it's moral choices and more fraud and dispute levels, ie the cost to service a customer.
  - deleted 7y ago
    [deleted]
  - jeltz 7y ago
    I am not convinced it is just that. PayPal also refuses to do business with online gambling which is an industry with low fraud levels (in the early poker days they were high, but that was a long time ago). Thankfully there are a bunch pf credit card processors who know how good customers online casinos are and most banks are fine too, so that industry is not deplatformed.
    - jeffasinger 7y ago
      Most of the online gambling operators in New Jersey take PayPal, though you usually have to use either a bank account linked with ACH or a balance you already have in PayPal.
      - jeltz 7y ago
        European gambling operators don't. It is pretty much impossible for a European operator to get PayPal (there have been a couple of exceptions).
        ascorbic 7y ago
        The big UK gambling sites all accept PayPal.
        bostik 7y ago
        And I can guarantee they all had to go through a long, painful process with reams of paperwork to get there.
onlyrealcuzzo 7y ago
Can anyone explain how this even happens? Who could possibly threaten a bank over handling financial transactions for sex workers? And what could they possibly threaten the bank with? Even if it's some big business like Chick-fil-A... Presumably they only bank with one bank, and presumably the porn and sex work industry has more money at that bank than Chick-fil-A. How's this actually work? It's not making sense to me.
- trhway 7y ago
  >Who could possibly threaten a bank over handling financial transactions for sex workers? And what could they possibly threaten the bank with? The SESTA/FOSTA for banking seems to be coming: https://www.thedailybeast.com/why-sex-workers-are-wary-of-elizabeth-warren https://www.thedailybeast.com/why-sex-workers-are-wary-of-el... "Warren’s joint effort with Florida Senator Marco Rubio in 2017 to introduce legislation that would enable banks to discriminate against sex worker, known as the “End Banking for Human Traffickers Act.” (Despite bipartisan support Warren and Rubio’s initiative was never voted on by the Senate, but the same bill has been reintroduced this year as H.R.295 - End Banking for Human Traffickers Act of 2019 and just passed the House Foreign Affairs Committee in March.) "
- sandworm101 7y ago
  Amateur porn? User-uploaded X-rated videos? When things go wrong they go wrong fast. Professional studios know how to abide by all the various regulations, many of which change from one state (or even city) to another. Amateurs with webcams in their bedrooms do not. Just look at the "Girls do porn" fiasco to see why someone might not want to do business with an amateur-focused studio.
  - dredmorbius 7y ago
    That's not a ... relevantly fruitful ... search term. Have any relevant links?
    - belltaco 7y ago
      https://www.vice.com/en_us/article/qvgxvw/girls-do-porn-employees-charged-with-sex-trafficking-potentially-face-life-in-prison https://www.vice.com/en_us/article/qvgxvw/girls-do-porn-empl...
Iv 7y ago
More broadly, financial institutions should be accountable. Because, indeed, discrimination is illegal, but suing a bank for it is long and very difficult if your account is frozen.
SlowRobotAhead 7y ago
Talk to gun retailers that were shut down by Chase and Bank of America. Legal has nothing to do with it. There is an increasing degree of business that entirely revolves around feelings of people who yell the loudest.
- beatgammit 7y ago
  This tells me we need more anonymity. A bank doesn't need to know any more about you than wherever is necessary to complete a transaction and report tax details to you and the government, and honestly that can be done with only a tax identification number (which should be separate from a Social Security Number). The same goes for payment processors, though payment processors may additionally need a company/individual nickname (for convenience in printing on receipts) and a bank account to deliver funds. I see absolutely no reason for an organization like PayPal or Chase to know who its clientele are, just whether they're legal from a tax perspective, unless the customer provides that voluntarily. And I could even see legislation preventing the collection of such data since it could be used to restrict access to essential services like banking. I think this gets us most of the benefits of cryptocurrency from a privacy point of view, but still maintains the ability of a government to track down fraud by cross referencing tax data with transactions. The only time someone need be connected to their bank account or payment processor account is if they're suspected of a crime, which would require a warrant. It shouldn't be possible, IMO, for payment processors to just refuse service based on dislike for the line of work the business owner is in. There are no restrictions on how currency may be used, so digital payments should be treated the same way.
  - oneplane 7y ago
    But then how would you know if you are processing stolen money?
    - netmonk 7y ago
      how do you know that the cashback the shop clerk is handing your right now for your diet coke purchase wasnt used three days ago for buying Heroin in the street ? We dont know and we dont care !
RileyJames 7y ago
This debate is currently brewing in Australia, except its against providing services to mining companies. When is right / wrong to boycott? And who should be allowed to? (Persons or companies) Context: in Australia the prime minister (Scott Morrison) is looking into laws to ban boycotts by companies (who are being compelled by people / public opinion)
- baroffoos 7y ago
  Thats a really good counter point and I can't think of any way the situations are different other than my morals saying working for pornhub is ok but trashing the planet is not. Of course thats totally subjective and someone could be of the opinion that working for pornhub is not ok.
  - kortilla 7y ago
    Mining != trashing the planet. Also, given that there is literally no alternative to mining, how do your morals allow you to support mining companies by using their products?
    - baroffoos 7y ago
      The coal mines in Australia are totally unnecessary. Australia is one of the best countries in the world for the ability to be powered on renewable energy. Which is now cheaper than coal. Literally the only purpose for coal in Australia is political reasons now. Yes I know coal is used for the production of other materials but there is more than enough coal currently being mined for steel. We just need to stop senselessly burning it when there is limitless energy raining down on empty desert.
      - brigandish 7y ago
        From what I know (and I don't claim to be an expert), solar panels require mining and also cause a lot of waste (what happens to a panel after its 20 year life cycle?). I've not heard whether solar farms would work in Australia - wouldn't the amount of distance be a problem? - nor whether they'd actually be any more efficient than nuclear. Certainly, I recently watched Michael Schellenberger's talk (it's in article form here[1]) and I was surprised at how destructive renewables seem when more detail is given about their implementation. [1] https://quillette.com/2019/02/27/why-renewables-cant-save-the-planet/ https://quillette.com/2019/02/27/why-renewables-cant-save-th...
lostlogin 7y ago
Considering the things that banks have financed in the past, the hypocrisy of this stance by banks is incredible. Everything up to and including genocide has been ok by them.
IAmGraydon 7y ago
Checking accounts or merchant accounts? Most banks shy away from processing credit cards for adult sites because the chargeback rate is sky high and it therefore presents elevated risk. It has nothing to do with discrimination.
- tluyben2 7y ago
  Or just fix that system; here (EU) it is not all that easy to chargeback (and impossible in many cases) because payments are secured; if you yell fraud, they will start an investigation (mostly automated); if the IP you paid from was around your house, you filled in correct info, you did 3dsecure (which is used on all my cards now; I had a few that did not have it and they got frauded, but a simple check showed it could not have been me and they reversed them all; they now have 3dsecure too for that reason) which means you knew specific secret information, maybe have a token device and/or the phone of the card owner, they will decline the chargeback request. If you are in your country most of the time and suddenly there is a 1000E charge from a merchant in Dubai, they will block it and call you. The ease with which you can do chargebacks in the US is harmful in a lot of cases imho. I have been a merchant (of digital goods; gaming, not gambling or adult) and got annoyed enough of US chargebacks (including from Paypal) that we started doing annoying KYC and added very long waiting periods before product delivery for US customers. We had certain payment methods (bank, and there were some payment methods that do not allow chargeback) that had immediate delivery. That fixed it, mostly. It hurts sales, but I rather make less revenue and more profit than pay for product only to lose it to scammers.
  - barsonme 7y ago
    Pretty much everything you mentioned under "secured" payments occurs in the US, too.
    - tluyben2 7y ago
      Why is it so easy to charge back then? If it's secured then they know it was you... Unless you have a police report saying you were coerced, forced, something was stolen?
Bombthecat 7y ago
Forbidden in germany. There is literally a law, which basically says: everyone needs to have and is allowed to have a banking account.
- odiroot 7y ago
  In Sparkassen. Deutsche Bank, Commerzbank, DKB, etc can easily reject you.
- jhrmnn 7y ago
  I think it is en EU-wide regulation. https://ec.europa.eu/info/business-economy-euro/banking-and-finance/consumer-finance-and-payments/retail-financial-services/access-bank-accounts_en https://ec.europa.eu/info/business-economy-euro/banking-and-...
- noobermin 7y ago
  Which further highlights how many "problems" that tech people in the US have tried to solve (transit->uber, various health care start-ups, etc) are essentially due to the failure of the US state to function properly or even focus on the right thing.
  - mola 7y ago
    Yup, it seems US citizens pay crazy amount of hidden tax because of inefficiencies caused by fanatical anti government propaganda. This isn't only about freedom it's about keeping power in certain hands. Too bad it's being exported everywhere
    - hoseja 7y ago
      I suspect there's also a healthy dose of not less fanatical social Darwinism thrown in there.
    - pluma 7y ago
      Just like how most public healthcare proposals in the US while technically raising taxes would end up leaving the individual with a much lower financial burden because of the ridiculous amounts of money Americans pay for healthcare and medication.
ryanSrich 7y ago
Seems like an interesting opportunity for a new bank — be the bank for porn, cannabis, etc.

basch 7y ago

wheres the disruptive fintech for these underbanked? Sounds like a gold mine for the right marketing team.

hn_throwaway_99 7y ago
There are other payment platforms that still work here. The problem with most of these alternative platforms is their fraud rates are absolutely through the roof. For example, Green Dot and NetSpend are companies that provide pre-paid, secured credit cards online, and as someone who worked at a consumer fintech company, one of these cards coming through automatically raised the fraud score because we had so many issues with payments from these cards.
kfichter 7y ago
SpankChain
m-p-3 7y ago
That fintech will get blacklisted by the other, bigger players. Not sure what else can be done to disrupt fintech to that point.
- im3w1l 7y ago
  In the worst case, you could set up brick and mortar shops for getting dollar bills in and out.
  - vanniv 7y ago
    I think you've just stumbled on the reason that folks are so determined to move us to a "cashless society" In a cashless society, once the folks in charge deplatform you, you cease to be able to engage in any transactions of any kind, and you basically cease to exist.
    - im3w1l 7y ago
      I agree that that is a consequence. But I don't think it's the primary motivation. When I talk to people around me about cash vs cards everyone agrees that paying with card is so much more convenient, especially when you just have to gently tap the reader with your card. I know many people who have the phone case with space for a few cards. They don't even carry a wallet anymore. They have nowhere to put bulky coins or even bills. Everything else: Decreased risk of being pick-pocketed, decreased risk of money vans being robbed, increased surveillance, increased control. All those are just secondary concerns.

Daishiman 7y ago

Bitcoin isn't criticized for this being an invalid use case, because it's totally valid. It's criticized because it's useless for this use case, people involved in this scene in practice don't care about it to any serious degree beyond it being a talking point, and because anything for legally working around financial deplatforming still needs strong interfacing with the rest of the system as well as compliance with legal regimes, which BTC has nothing to say on that. In fact, you can make your own payments platform denominated in USD and that's as useful as BTC for legal activities. So why go through the extra steps?

hndamien 7y ago
Or you could not go through any of the steps of making a payments platform and just accept BTC.
- Mate2Mate 7y ago
  Or just accept Nano, and not have any hassle at all! Just put a Nano QR code on display and voila! - Instant notification of immutable, secure payments from anyone in the world. No complexities, no wait for confirmations, no unreliable unsafe Lightning Network channel complexities.
- Daishiman 7y ago
  And then you have to find a seller for BTC and deal with that hassle yourself.
  - acchow 7y ago
    Unless other things were priced in BTC...
    - bduerst 7y ago
      Yes, if everyone used BTC that would solve the problem of people using BTC.
  - 7y ago

Amezarak 7y ago

Bitcoin’s use case for this is limited. If I were to purchase a product or service that might be subject to deplatforming, it’d better be anonymous, or I risk facing the social sanctions instead. “Amezarak’s bitcoin address sent 10BTC to a sex worker, fire him” is not a much better situation.

x220 7y ago
That's why you don't use a shitcoin, you use Monero.
- cameronbrown 7y ago
  JFC, this tribalism in the cryptocurrency space is harming adoption. "Shitcoin"? Please grow up..
  - x220 7y ago
    Before you criticize me for calling a dangerously flawed currency a shitcoin, you should criticize those who use "bitcoin" and "cryptocurrency" interchangeably. Bitcoin was fine back in the day but is terribly flawed in 2019. Are the fanboys never going to move beyond this?
- zelly 7y ago
  I heard sex workers actually do use Monero when they use crypto (not BTC). It's funny how the supposedly bad UX doesn't matter when there's a compelling reason to use it.
  - x220 7y ago
    That's really interesting.
Mate2Mate 7y ago
You can have more than one Nano address - including one kept for adult purposes.

Nasrudith 7y ago

Marijuana is separate from the deplatforming in the traditional sense because federal banking laws and the DEA's stubborn Schedule 1 tautology when it clearly has medical uses are to blame as opposed to uncooerced choices.

s1artibartfast 7y ago
That depends on if the bank in question is subject to the federal regulations.
- sailfast 7y ago
  Pretty sure every bank in the United States is subject to federal regulations.
- paulddraper 7y ago
  Do you actually use a non-FDIC bank?
  - s1artibartfast 7y ago
    Yes, along with 100 million other Americans who bank with credit unions.

cft 7y ago

IRS treats Bitcoin as property. Accordingly, the recipients need to report every bitcoin transaction on Schedule D and calculate its cost basis ( appreciation or depreciation of Bitcoin). I am not talking about the reporting of the cumulative income, but the additional requirement of reporting of each Bitcoin payment or disposal. Say you received 0.0001 BTC held it for 5 days and then converted to USD. These are two taxable events, not one, with the requirement of calculating BTC appreciation between these two events. Now multiply this burden by every transaction. In my opinion, IRS successfully killed BTC use in the US by treating it as property rather than currency (for currency FX, transactions under $200 are exempt from cost basis reporting on schedule D)

why_only_15 7y ago
Is the IRS going to seriously audit you for the $10 in taxes you should have paid because you held some BTC for a week? I can see that being an issue at institutional scale, but for small users it seems unlikely it would ever be enforced.

deleted 7y ago

[deleted]

dwighttk 7y ago

> It also happens in the US marijuana industry. That's because it is still federally illegal

guywithahat 7y ago
Yeah I think there’s an issue with legal sex or political content being deplatformed, but if you want to stop deplatforming weed you should focus on actually legalizing it first lol

na85 7y ago

But Bitcoin won't solve deplatforming, because the existence of Bitcoin doesn't preclude a bank from deplatforming you. Until Bitcoin is ubiquitous (doubtful this will occur in my life time) we are still vulnerable to deplatforming when we go to exchange btc for fiat.

stale2002 7y ago
My bank isn't deplatforming me, when I transfer money from coinbase, though. So this is already a solved issue. They aren't deplatforming me right now!
- 2muchcoffeeman 7y ago
  Are you a sex worker?
  - 2muchcoffeeman 7y ago
    I’m being down voted, but sex workers are some times deprived of bank services because of their jobs. Literally told to take their banking else where. How does using crypto help? Does it’s use suddenly make you immune from banks finding out your source of income? https://www.sbs.com.au/news/banks-accused-of-slut-shaming-for-refusing-financial-services-to-sex-workers https://www.sbs.com.au/news/banks-accused-of-slut-shaming-fo...
    - stale2002 7y ago
      The answer is that crypto transactions are censored much less frequently then PayPal transactions. That's why it helps. PayPal censorship is much more common than crypto censorship. > Does it’s use suddenly make you immune from banks finding out your source of income? No, it doesn't make you immune. Being 100% immune to anything at all is literally impossible. But it seems like it makes it less likely.
      - 2muchcoffeeman 7y ago

briandear 7y ago

> It also happens in the US marijuana industry Most of the marijuana industry is illegal in the US. States making it legal doesn’t change the Controlled Substances Act. As banking is federally regulated, banks don’t have the freedom to knowingly allow illegal businesses. Porn however, is legal, and deplatforming a legal product/business is wrong in my opinion. To be clear, I am not suggesting marijuana should be illegal at the federal level at all, only that it’s not inconsistent that a bank not serve those customers — after all they would then become criminals themselves by facilitating the moment of funds for a product that is illegal.

9nGQluzmnq3M 7y ago
Porn is legal if everybody involved is above age and gives consent and is capable of giving consent at the time and that consent is properly recorded and the resulting content is not judged criminally "obscene" by some judge in a hick town. Which is way too many ifs for most banks, particularly given the meager returns on offer.
- vageli 7y ago
  > Porn is legal if everybody involved is above age and gives consent and is capable of giving consent at the time and that consent is properly recorded and the resulting content is not judged criminally "obscene" by some judge in a hick town. Which is way too many ifs for most banks, particularly given the meager returns on offer. By why is the bank on the hook here? Is the ISP on the hook for serving the content? If the bank followed the regulations around KYC why would they be liable?

1337biz 7y ago

To be honest I appreciate PayPal doing this. The more we see prominent cases of deplatforming, the more people are going to take it as a serious problem. One can always hide behind some pr bullshit when it comes to political free speech and so on. But porn it is finally something enough people care about to take it seriously.

BLKNSLVR 7y ago
It depends if the de-platforming is happening for reasons of social outrage / offense (bad) or commercial reasons (maybe not 'good' but at least 'better'). If it's about this particular industry sub-group having a much-higher-than-normal rate of fraud or returns or buyers remorse or whatever causes more hassle to PayPal's processes than they're worth, then that makes commercial sense.
- listenallyall 7y ago
  it's mostly about ill-conceived laws intended to protect vulnerable people, which in fact harm those exact people
  - Rapzid 7y ago
    A lot of the laws were simply passed under the guise of helping people but were in fact passed to further peoples moral agendas. Easy tell that's the case when data comes along that contradicts the laws efficacy..
- 1337biz 7y ago
  I don't even think people are differentiating that much about deplatforming. I am fine if the sentiment growth that thinks'those bad corporation have too much power and can't just start banning users without a clear cause'. The free speech issue is to narrow.

LoSboccacc 7y ago

some of the greatest damage the progressives have done to our society came from convincing people that the slippery slope is a fallacy

xtracto 7y ago

It will be funny that, as with other technologies from the past, pornography will be the use case that will finally bring cryptocurrencies to widespread adoption in society

skunkpocalypse 7y ago
Halftone magazine printing? Check. Videocasettes? Check. Internet? Check. Thank heaven for prurient smut, driver of all great technology. Without it we would still be in the stone age.
- bjoli 7y ago
  Don't forget the role in testing censorship laws. It is fantastic in a way. Always a wet finger in the air to see in which direction it is blowing, constantly asking "how can I make money from this?".
- bsder 7y ago
  You forget laserdiscs, smaller videocameras, DVDs, and online payment systems ... It's also probably the only thing really using VR/AR right now to any significant degree. It used to be that there was a porn convention at the same time as CES in Las Vegas. For a lot of years, the porn conference was the better of the two from a technology standpoint.
  - arkh 7y ago
    VR, 4k, interactive use of connected devices. We're getting to Demolition Man levels fast.

steelframe 7y ago

As a few others have already pointed out, marijuana is a Schedule 1 drug, and so no bank that operates at a federal level can touch it. That said, I've heard that the ATMs in recreational marijuana shops are themselves significant sources revenue for the shops.

ericb 7y ago

Bitcoin isn't a currency that can fix this. Bitcoin is either censorable (lightning network) or unaffordable when used heavily with slow confirmations and ridiculous fees. The lightning network is a joke--a frankenstein "Engineering UI" layed over a system to route around bad development decisions re:block size.

turkeytotal 7y ago
What sort of censorship are you referring to? If taproot-schnorr is deployed and adopted, cooperative channel operations will look exactly like normal single-sig transactions. As for routing censorship, if one node fails to route for me, I can open a channel with a different node and route around them.
- ericb 7y ago
  You can be deplatformed from major node hubs, especially considering the design makes the hubs money transmitters from a US legal standpoint. You can get your channel closed out and be forced to pay the transaction fee, which may be higher than the value in your channel. None of these are things people want to spend money worrying about.
grubles 7y ago
Lightning is not censorable as participants in a payment channel route cannot know the sender nor receiver of a payment. It's similar to tor relays.
- spookthesunset 7y ago
  Lightning is also a pile of vaporware. It is even more Rube Goldberg than bitcoin. It’s only purpose in the bitcoin ecosystem is so shysters selling the dream can claim “no really, bitcoin can scale!!!! Lightning is just around the corner!!!”. (Of course they don’t mention the irony to bitcoin scaling is not to use it)
  - xur17 7y ago

bigpoppa 7y ago

Screw BTC, they could use XRP, it's virtually a stable coin.

epicureanideal 7y ago

Does anyone know of any solutions to this? Are there any payment options that have so far been immune to this issue? Maybe it's worth setting up alternative payment methods, even if the percent they charge per transaction is much higher, just to ensure stability of access to funds.

guywithahat 7y ago
Yeah, things like subscribe star exist in part for this reason, and there are plenty of groups that discuss alternative technology, such as this news org https://reclaimthenet.org/ https://reclaimthenet.org/ or this group https://gab.com/groups/377 https://gab.com/groups/377 (though the last two mostly focus on political content)
Mate2Mate 7y ago
Yes - Nano fixes this. Nano is instantly fully-confirmed, secure and immutable. All a model needs to do is display a Nano address (or QR code) in their webcam backdrop, or on their website. They get instant notification of payments, so have the option of instantly reacting to them. So they can be interactive with their viewers in real-time. Nano is feeless, unlike Bitcoin, and will always be feeless. (Bitcoin's fees jumped to $6.25 on June 28 2019 so saying Bitcoin is currently 'cheap' doesn't really cover that.)

harry8 7y ago

Ask Julian Assange [1] how this works with political speech and journalism. Though I've probably provoked "the hate" by naming the major example rather than thought about the underlying principles and what's at stake. [1] https://wikileaks.org/Banking-Blockade.html https://wikileaks.org/Banking-Blockade.html

loup-vaillant 7y ago
> Ask Julian Assange I wish. But I'm afraid no one will be able to ask him anything, ever.

samstave 7y ago

It would be terrific if as much energy would be spent on shutting down human sex trafficking finances for children and black and international markets. Certainly there is some % of pornhub sex workers that are there against their will, but the dark web child porn networks are what our primary focus should be going against.

sieabahlpark 7y ago

I like how this is spun in a way as if PayPal has a vendetta against specific forms of income alone. Nevermind the sex industry is probably the biggest attractor for fraudulent charges and overall sketchy business.

Spooky23 7y ago

PayPal is an accessible platform that works is a wide variety of scenarios — it’s almost unique in that respect. Most forms of sex work are illegal in the US and other jurisdictions, and sites like PornHub are compliance nightmares where all manner of sleazy or illegal actions are likely happening. PayPal doesn’t want to be the financier for the next scandalous “amateur” producer.

Mindwipe 7y ago
"Most" forms of sex work aren't illegal in the US, or indeed most territories.

dragonwriter 7y ago

> It also happens in the US marijuana industry The US marijuana industry is, under federal law, entirely criminal, so that's kind of understandable, even if the underlying law is arguably undesirable.

cable2600 7y ago

This is Big Brother type censorship. Anyone they disagree with will get shut out of Paypal, Banks, Credit Cards, etc. There was Hatreon but Visa canceled their services for them. I agree the porn industry is legal and nobody forces people to watch Pornhub, now I doubt the future of Pornhub. I don't use it but I support those who do under the freedom of speech.

madamelic 7y ago
>now I doubt the future of Pornhub There is one absolute in the world: porn will exist. Look at every technology and one of the first adopters is porn. Porn has chosen the winner of most battles in tech.

paulddraper 7y ago

PayPal has also deplatformed gun dealers. No firearms, firearm parts, or ammunition. [1] [1] https://www.paypal.com/us/smarthelp/article/What-is-PayPal%E2%80%99s-policy-on-transactions-that-involve-firearms-FAQ585 https://www.paypal.com/us/smarthelp/article/What-is-PayPal%E...

Zak 7y ago
This is relevant to the argument that Paypal is not merely responding to financial risks, but using its platform to impose its worldview. Guns are highly regulated in the US. Someone violating those regulations in the context on an online business is usually guilty of a felony, and has a high probability of being prosecuted. To my knowledge, guns don't have a high rate of chargebacks, as they involve a papertrail with an in-person pickup requiring government-issued ID and a background check.
- paulddraper 7y ago
  Ammunition sales don't usually have those requirements. In most states you can buy it online just as easily as a case of beer. But yes, you are correct.
- ec109685 7y ago
  At a gun show, two individuals could use PayPal to conduct a sale (if it was allowed on their platform), without any background check or government-issued ID.
  - Zak 7y ago
    They could, or they could list guns for sale on a classifieds site like Armslist and meet in private. People could use Paypal for such a transaction regardless of the terms of use, though trying to use the dispute resolution might result in both parties losing their accounts. In any case, it's not a meaningful financial risk for Paypal. It might be a risk of bad press, but "criminal pays for gun with Paypal and uses it to commit a murder" probably isn't actually going to result in many people not using Paypal.

octocop 7y ago

I totally agree with you and I also believe money(currency) should exist in it's own layer, beyond the control of corporations and governments.

qxga 7y ago

Bitcoin would be great for this in theory, but the problem is that customers will not pay you in Bitcoin. People want their porn and they want it now, that's why they're paying. If you don't make it practically seamless for a layman to pay you for your porn, they're either pirating it or looking elsewhere. Sure, a few people might pay, but you're looking at probably a 50-75% revenue loss, best case.

badrabbit 7y ago

How do people get bitcoin? Pay with a credit card? If so, btc exchanges can ban you still based on the name on the card. I tried other means such as money transfer and cash gift cards, but the exchange rate can mean to pay for $100 I have to spend $3-400!! A proposal: sell btc giftcards. Each card will have a qr code which is a url that allows download of a wallet (with priv key) where the URL is active after payment. You can transfer the funds to your permanent wallet or spend it directly. Maybe you can even use it to pay for IRL goods somehow. Either way, the participation barrier is lowered. I heard of btc ATMs as well but I can imagine carrying one more giftcard is easier for stores than adding an ATM.

stiray 7y ago

This practice is getting seriously annoying in scope of current events like google going into banking bussiness. One part are privacy applications but even worse is that suddenly pulling the application from play store using aurora (3rd part app for those that dont want google mobile services spyware on the phone) could cost you bank account which google will surely tie to google account. This is not good, we are beeing pulled to distopia at progressing rate.

pluma 7y ago

I'm with you except for conflating right wing propagandists with sex workers and the cannabis industry. Right wing propagandists are rarely deplatformed compared to the other two groups and when they are it's generally for spreading conspiracy theories (remember that people have already died because of Pizzagate and QAnon "truthers") or inciting (racial/religious/homophobic) hatred. The difference is that right wing propagandists are also a lot more vocal than the other group (or left wingers for that matter), skewing the perception. There's a widely known joke about how many comedians have shows on mainstream platforms with titles like "Cancelled" or "Triggered", complaining about "things you can't say anymore". Also see the "Intellectual Dark Web" whose whole shtick is being "deplatformed" by academia and the mainstream while having a massive mainstream media presence.

raxxorrax 7y ago

Printable cash for internet transaction would be nice... Honestly, the behavior of paypal is abysmal and I wish there to be a real alternative. I despise credit cards and would like to have more options. I doubt I will ever pay anything for porn, but there are a lot of content creators that can only receive money via paypal/credit card. I do actually think a government should have some control over its currency, but if the institutions implement their own arbitrary rules, solutions like Bitcoin are the best alternative.

vorpalhex 7y ago
> I doubt I will ever pay anything for porn, but there are a lot of content creators that can only receive money via paypal/credit card. A lot of porn models are becoming the content creators now. The line between your favorite adult actor and your favorite youtuber is growing thinner every day. Which makes us wonder if one near day we'll see amateur adult content with sponsored products "... brought to you by Questionable VPN!"
- raxxorrax 7y ago
  They certainly are content creators. Not really a fan of porn streams though. Prostitution is legal in my country but I wouldn't want to visit one. It is a large industry but it isn't ubiquitous because of legality. So porn models would probably be a thing even if all payment providers stopped their service for porn. It would just be completely counter productive since this form of sex work is probably as safe as it can be. And any life style decision shouldn't be dependent on payment processors.

throwaway857384 7y ago

There is this guy I watch on YouTube, he had a Patreon account and a BTC address. I don't want to sign up for Patreon, so I sent him BTC. The great thing about BTC is you can send it so easily without going through all the hoops other 'systems' need. Sure, it isn't so easy to get started with BTC, but once you are in, it is a breeze.

asjw 7y ago

Bitcoin is useless for this use case At a certain point they will start to ask you "where did you get this coins?" because sooner or later you'll have to convert them to real currencies Cash is still a better option, there are plenty others: rechargeable CC, gift cards, vouchers, etc etc that work better than bitcoin, require no setup, no knowledge and can be used without hassles.