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Why American Workers Now Dress So Casually
- GuiA 9y agoTangentially related: I was recently reading the autobiography of the CEO and one of the founders of Sony, Akio Morita. Sony Japan has been famous for having uniforms, like many other Japanese companies (which Steve Jobs really liked and wanted to emulate, except the idea was shot down early on. He did apply the idea to himself though, which is where his famous look comes from). Many people would ascribe this as Sony being a typical, paternalistic Asian company - however, the reality is a bit more subtle. Keep in mind that Sony was started right after World War 2, in a Tokyo ravaged by years of bombing: "When we started the company, clothing was scarce and expensive on the black market. People came to work in an odd assortment of gear; returning soldiers wore bits of their uniform or old-fashioned suits that had been saved for many years. If a person was fortunate enough to have a good suit, he didn't want to wear it to the office where he might risk burning a hole in it with acid or soiling it. Some of our employees just didn't have the money to invest in a work jacket. So with company money we bought a jacket for everyone to wear in the office. Pretty soon these jackets became a symbol of our company family. As the company prospered, we could have done away with the jackets - we used to have a summer jacket and a winter one - because we were all being paid and could afford our own, but everybody seemed to like the idea, and so we just decided to continue to provide them. In the beginning, we executives had a different colored name tag from the others, but we eventually adopted the same kind worn by everyone else. Today these jackets and tags are being used everywhere, even where class distinctions made people hesitant to wear them at first. Many of us liked our blue jackets, and I still wear mine occasionally." Akio Morita, Made in Japan
- slededit 9y agoDoes anyone know where I can find a picture of these uniforms? Google image search happily returns a picture of Kim Jong Il and steve jobs, but no actual images of the damn uniform. You'd think "sony company uniform" would be pretty easy for a search engine to search for.
- GuiA 9y agoThe later uniforms were designed by Issey Miyake, whom Jobs ordered his turtlenecks from. Here's one picture of early days Sony where all employees appear to be wearing the same jacket: https://www.sony.net/SonyInfo/CorporateInfo/History/SonyHistory/8ido18000007kygs-img/8ido18000007kyn2.gif https://www.sony.net/SonyInfo/CorporateInfo/History/SonyHist...
- kcanini 9y agoDo you have a version that isn't potato quality?
- drakenot 9y agoBest version I could find: http://imgur.com/a/Kkck7 http://imgur.com/a/Kkck7
- canadian_voter 9y agohttps://i2.wp.com/www.sopitas.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/05/sony-fundacion-4-e1462649780571.png https://i2.wp.com/www.sopitas.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/05... Courtesy Tineye[0] [0] https://www.tineye.com/search/c9d37d27e89b6836f417109fc993ff052d0dba06/?sort=size&order=desc https://www.tineye.com/search/c9d37d27e89b6836f417109fc993ff...
- goldenkey 9y agoThose jackets look pretty damn nice, thick canvas fabric.
- rwmj 9y agoIf you're interested in Japanese industry from the 60s and 70s then there's an excellent film "Dawn of a New Day", a fictionalized account of the invention of VHS video recorders (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0329177/ http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0329177/). The cover (http://asianwiki.com/images/2/21/Hiamatanoboru.jpg http://asianwiki.com/images/2/21/Hiamatanoboru.jpg) shows some workers in standard uniforms.
- ilamont 9y agoTaiwan, a former Japanese colony, has a few companies which follow Japanese corporate traditions. A friend worked for EVA Air in the back office, and besides having to wear a uniform similar to that of flight or gate staff, she said every morning at 9 am people would have to stand at their desks and do calisthenics that were broadcast over a loudspeaker. She said this was something the founder had picked up from visiting or interacting with Japanese companies in the 60s and 70s. At one company I worked at, a television network, they issued male staff with blue blazers but we never had to wear them during the course of the business day. I think the idea was we could throw them on in case some big shot came to visit.
- mattbgates 9y agoI remember, everyday I'd get dressed for work. Business casual collar shirt or button down shirt. Dockers pants. Colors were pretty dull. Light blue. Red. Gray. Black. White. Black shoes. I'd have an assortment to choose from and that is all I'd ever wear. Since having been moved into a cubicle, however, where I am visible less than half the time, only seen when I go get a free drink from the fridge, use the bathroom, or take a walk outside, I have been dressing much more casually. Decent shirt, but probably less than business casual, sometimes as casual as a Pink Floyd or a shirt that I got at a concert. Jeans. Sneakers. Summer=shorts. A lot of times, I'll just find a nice casual shirt and wear it for 3 or 4 days if its fairly clean. Clothing is just the last thing on my mind when it comes to getting dressed in the morning. I know I have to do it in order to go out into the world, but I don't really care what it is. Of course, my supervisor does warn us if corporate is coming to visit for the day, for which everyone tends to be even more dressed up than usual. But that is just the way our office is. I've worked around the United States.. it seems like the East Coast and Midwest are slightly more strict in wanting people to dress business casual, and be clean-shaven, while the West Coast and Mountain areas are more lenient, and doesn't even seem to mind a mustache or beard, though either should be somewhat groomed. East Coast/Midwest: tattoos should be covered. West Coast/Mountains: tattoos are okay as long as they are not offensive. Just today, I walked into Walmart, and a guy who looked like the manager is loaded up to his neck in tattoos. I don't remember ever seeing that when I lived on the East coast.
- acchow 9y ago> East Coast/Midwest: tattoos should be covered. West Coast/Mountains: tattoos are okay as long as they are not offensive. California: Anything goes. I've seen people walking around barefoot in the office. I have yet to see anyone completely nude at work tho, though plenty on the streets of SF.
- WalterBright 9y agoI wouldn't allow barefoot in the office, just because of lawsuits if someone steps on something like a tack.
- creepydata 9y ago>Zuckerberg explained: “I really want to clear my life to make it so that I have to make as few decisions as possible about anything except how to best serve [Facebook’s] community.” Interesting enough Obama said the exact same thing about his suit choices. “You’ll see I wear only gray or blue suits,” [Obama] said. “I’m trying to pare down decisions. I don’t want to make decisions about what I’m eating or wearing. Because I have too many other decisions to make.”(1) So decision fatigue doesn't need to go hand in hand with super casual. (1) http://www.vanityfair.com/news/2012/10/michael-lewis-profile-barack-obama http://www.vanityfair.com/news/2012/10/michael-lewis-profile...
- deleted 9y ago[deleted]
- chris_7 9y agowell, http://www.trbimg.com/img-53ffb406/turbine/la-ig-obama-tan-suit-stop-freaking-out-20140828 http://www.trbimg.com/img-53ffb406/turbine/la-ig-obama-tan-s... dude loves mom jeans as well.
- datatan 9y agoOn the other hand, if someones so lazy that they can't even pick out their own clothes do you really want them running the country? Seriously, if picking out something to wear gives you decision fatigue then you aren't fit to run a hot dog stand.
- draw_down 9y agoI think that reasoning is kind of lame (is it really so hard? do they eat the same thing every meal?) But certainly both Obama and Zuckerberg would be distinctive figures regardless of what they wore.
- majewsky 9y ago> do they eat the same thing every meal? I can't speak for Obama or Zuck, but I've been eating the same type of breakfast (cereal+milk) consistently [1]for the last 15 or so years (at age 27). Not mainly because of decision fatigue, but because I'm the polar opposite of a morning person, and the morning routine helps my drowzy morning self to leave home on time. [1] Except when I'm traveling, because I'm certainly not taking a box of cereal with me. :)
- ilaksh 9y agoIs it about self-expression now? I think if people take that to heart its great. Are actual colors coming back? Black seems to be as popular as ever. Most people don't want to stand out, at work or anywhere else, but fashion is generally so drab, I have always thought there would be a flower-like backlash of color that became popular eventually. Then you would only stand out if you were too dull.
- chris_7 9y agoMy experience is that dressing in black does stand out. Most everyday people wear colors, even in New York, so it's much more striking to wear all black/monochrome - especially if you get interesting streetwear-y pieces. Or go full Rick Owens.
- ilaksh 9y agoI didn't say _all_ black. Black in general is still a dominant color in NY.
- johan_larson 9y agoIs it about self-expression now? I think if people take that to heart its great. Not really. In software we have a de facto range of attire from jeans and t-shirts to khakis and sport shirts. We're a pretty conformist bunch. I expect the range of choices is about as broad as our parents had a generation ago, through the center has moved way way casual-ward.
- PhasmaFelis 9y agoI've discovered in the past few years that I really like jewel-tone button-down shirts, long- or short-sleeve. It is really surprising how hard it is to find button-downs in colors that are neither drab nor pastel. I just want nice vivid reds, blues, purples.
- kirpekar 9y agoOver the last 12 years I have interviewed dozens of candidates for jobs. Not a single wore a suit. The suit is really dead in the workplace (in Silicon Valley)
- manyxcxi 9y agoI've interviewed and been interviewed countless times in the last decade and maybe once I've worn a full blown suit. I don't have a problem with them, but I don't want to look like an asshole when everyone else is running around in hoodies and jeans. I usually just step it up a notch from whatever the regular office attire is there (either by asking my point of contact or having known the office). If it's full SV/hobo style I'll do a polo and nice jeans. Business casual and I'll wear a nicer shirt and some khakis. If I really have no clue I'll go slacks and a dress shirt. In my own office (we're all remote) I still wear jeans and a polo most days. Usually just out of sheer laziness.
- ghaff 9y agoHaven't worn a suit for an interview in decades. Last interviews, I wore a jacket and tie. I knew I'd be overdressing and certainly didn't need to. But it generally doesn't hurt to signal that you're taking the process seriously. I've interviewed plenty of folks in the years since and they do pretty much the same. I'm not going to dock people because they approach an interview formally.
- mnm1 9y agoI'd say it's actually a detriment to wear one to an interview in the Valley. I learned that first-hand (but still got the offer).
- kevin_thibedeau 9y agoI once interviewed for a job with a "hands on" recruiter clueless about tech culture who insisted I suit up. I overdressed and was interviewed by a VP of engineering who wore ragged cutoff shorts.
- sitepodmatt 9y ago
- zw123456 9y agoI remember when I entered the work force back in 1978 right out of college and went to work for Bell Labs. We were required to wear a suit, ties and white shirt. You were not allowed to hang your jacket over your chair; it had to be hung in the closet. You could smoke at your desk, I am not a smoker but many others took advantage of that. You could smoke in conference rooms during meetings and in elevators and many did so (See Mad Men). It has been very interesting watching the norms shift over the last almost 40 years. Women and minorities filling the ranks, casual attire, smoking prohibitions (all very good things in my view). One, funny interesting side story, if you will indulge this old timer. When I was in high school, my father was a budding attorney and of course had to wear a suit, tie and white shirt. My mother was a struggling artist. My father wanted her to wash and iron his shirts to save money and only have to pay for the dry cleaning of the shirts. My mother refused (an early feminist perhaps). They had a huge fight over it. In the end, my Mother relented and agreed to endure the task. However, in classic passive aggressive style, she "accidentally" got a red sock in the wash with the shirts turning them a slight shade of pink. Of course that made them, for that time, unusable ! So he had to toss them. After that he simply had them laundered. Ever since then our family calls this ruse "red-socking-it", which basically means intentionally fucking up to get out of doing something you don't want to do. I think we can all think of times when someone at work "red-socked-it".
- learc83 9y ago>I think we can all think of times when someone at work "red-socked-it". When I worked at Best Buy years ago, they started making us wear earpieces. I hated trying to do my job with constant interruptions in my ear, but instead of telling management I hated it, I pretended to love it. I started talking over the radio constantly, and I'd end every phrase by making a white-noise sound and saying over. Eventually the managers took my radio away, and they thought it was a punishment.
- bitwize 9y agoI'd be doing that all the time. "Copy that, HQ. Bravo Team is go. Repeat, Bravo Team is go."
- dclowd9901 9y agoNo joke, I didn't want to become a software engineer when I was young because I saw pictures in books (published in the 60s -- I was reading them in the 80s) of programmers, and they looked like stodgy boring dorks. If I had seen that SV survival guide, the entire course of my life would have been different.
- Osiris 9y agoThe office I work at right now is an old oil and gas company and up until a year ago women had to wear pantyhose. When they started the new internal development department they found out that they had to slightly relax the standards to hire people. We can now wear nice jeans, a shirt with buttons, and dress shoes. Yes, the manager still encourages everyone to wear tires, though it's no longer required.
- Arizhel 9y ago>Yes, the manager still encourages everyone to wear tires, though it's no longer required. Wouldn't that be rather uncomfortable, especially when you try to sit in a chair with a back?
- canadian_voter 9y agoFriend of mine just got a new tech job with one of those boring old Fortune 100 companies. Wore a suit to the interview; the interviewer told him to dress it down for the job. So he wore slacks, a belt and a button up shirt on the first day; people seemed really nervous around him, like he was there to audit them. So he meets the people he's going to work with: his "boss" is in a stained t-shirt, shorts, no shoes, super casual. I mean like 20 years ago he wouldn't have been able to buy a soda in a beach-town convenience store. Looks at my friend like he's from Mars. A few weeks in and my friend still over-dresses. I mean, his shirt has a COLLAR for christsakes. It looks like it has been IRONED for the love-of-god. We'll see how long he lasts. Maybe when he gets more comfortable he'll start wearing ripped jeans and a pink floyd t-shirt. We'll see.
- draw_down 9y agoThat's actually awesome, what a ridiculously simple way to mess with people. Something about nerds makes them freeze up when they see a guy in a suit as if it gave one magical powers. People claim not to care about clothes or fashion, but if that were true they wouldn't care if he wore a suit.
- fao_ 9y agoIt's not about fashion, it's about the fact that we have long folklore about people in suits. Almost everyone who is in a suit is out to get you for something. Bosses, Ignorant Managers, Salesmen, Estate Agents[0], Religious salesmen, etc, etc. Almost all of those are people who prey on the weak, the meek, and the pitiful. hiss. [0]: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z7ap6-e3mVg https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z7ap6-e3mVg
- TeMPOraL 9y agoAlso power, which implies risk. Besides the various kinds of salesmen, which you can recognize quickly, people wearing suits are usually those with power that can affect you - bosses, managers, lawyers, government officials. Piss them off, and they can ruin your day. Or life. So one learns to be extra careful around people in suits.
- Avshalom 9y agoAlternate theory: the longer we aren't England the more we recognize that three layers of wool isn't a very practical outfit. I mean shit Miami's winters are warmer than London's summers
- bitwize 9y agoNot all of the USA is Miami. London is balmy compared to Boston.
- MR4D 9y agoBut most of the US gets into the 90's for much of the summer, whereas London tends to have much cooler high temperatures.
- mixmastamyk 9y agoSuits are totally impractical in the southern half of California about half the year. Unless you're in constant air conditioning, which is about as stupid as it gets.
- traviscj 9y agoThe point of the post was "not all former social norms are always appropriate; here is one counterexample" not "I think every zip code has exactly this weather." Chiming in with a place where the social norm is appropriate is not interesting, because it is already the social norm.
- simonh 9y agoWhich is crazy a Boston's latitude is about the same as Rome. It came as a real surprise when so realised how far south the US is compared to the UK, or in fact most of Europe. Miami is the same latitude as Luxor in Egypt.
- distances 9y agoBorn in the Nordics, I never felt I'm living very far in the north as it was south of the Arctic Circle and all. But there really aren't big populations that far up -- it was well north of Anchorage, for example. Russia has some inhabited northern places in Siberia like Norilsk, though solely due to the mining industry. I guess Europe would look very different without the Gulf Stream.
- lacampbell 9y agoIt's something I've noticed as well and something I feel myself starting to react against. I don't own any t-shirts anymore and now dress almost exclusively in business casual, whether I'm at work or not. I plan to get myself a suit tailored this year. I think the stereo-typical image of the "IT guy" wearing a hoodie or printed t-shirts isn't a good one, and stops us being taken as seriously as we should be. I want to be respected as a professional, not ostracized for dressing like a slob.
- aisidun 9y agoI can't take an IT guy in a suit seriously.
- lacampbell 9y agohttps://tekkie.files.wordpress.com/2012/02/young-ivan-sutherland.jpg https://tekkie.files.wordpress.com/2012/02/young-ivan-suther... https://diarioti.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/07/Douglas-Engelbart-728.jpg https://diarioti.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/07/Douglas-Enge... http://www-formal.stanford.edu/jmc/jmccolor.jpg http://www-formal.stanford.edu/jmc/jmccolor.jpg
- golergka 9y agoYou're proving the point: IT guys in suits are from 50 years ago. Of course, if you meat a real old-timer, you respect him, but if you see a 20-something who tries to emulate this style, it just looks ridiculous and out of place.
- lacampbell 9y agoThen I think that reflects badly on our profession if the idea of us dressing like professionals is hard for us to take seriously. We can take lawyers, accountants and business people in suits seriously. But we're not on their level? I guess I'd rather look ridiculous and out of place than look the opposite. If this field is so un-respected, maybe I should make an exit plan anyway.
- gumby 9y agoI find these sartorial/sumptuary rules fascinating. My kid (age 19) is a snappy dresser which I (working in the Valley since I was 18, 30-odd years ago) pretty much wear whatever my hand falls on first, typically T shirts and shorts. He says it's a status thing: I have status (within the community I work with) and so can afford to not give a shit about my clothing. While service workers (not gardeners, but sales people, lawyers, doctors, janitors, finance people, waiters, etc) all have to wear a uniform of one sort or another. I wonder if he's right because when I am in Japan or Europe I dress better and do dress up for dinner. I heard an interesting explanation for SF's acceptance of a much wider norm of behavior: the claim was that it goes back to the gold rush: that crazy person might just have an ounce or two of gold in his or her pocket.
- jldugger 9y agoIt's kind of a mixture of clothing as a status uniform and rejection of that norm. Lawyers, managers and bankers wear suits and display their white collar status, a high position in the social hierarchy. Salespeople continue with suits as a form of mimickery -- you won't get thrown out of the building quite as fast with a suit versus a hoodie or polo. But the image of suits in the workplace has been tainted with corporate looting, fraud, deception and mismanagement. Dressing like you work for Goldman Sachs is akin to declaring those behaviors as an aspiration. The causal dress counter-culture blurs the status lines that dress codes would otherwise draw. It reflects a mentality that people want leaders (or maybe even to be leaders) who are judged by the quality ideas, execution, and outcomes, versus their position in the org chart. Or the abolition of leaders entirely, holocratic style. It's true that at some level, Zuckerberg has enough status to show up to Facebook offices in a hoodie, and he's rich enough that even if investors gave him the boot he'd be well off. But I don't imagine most programmers showing up to work in hoodies do to broadcast how important they are.
- _raoulcousins 9y agoI work for a company with a strict and specific dress code - ties and slacks for men, leather shoes, etc. I think there is a huge opportunity cost to this dress code, and we lose a lot of potential good talent. I was asked when interviewing (in a very serious tone) whether I could handle the dress code. It seemed obvious that they were aware it was a sticking point in recruiting.
- xraystyle 9y ago> It seemed obvious that they were aware it was a sticking point in recruiting. Understandably. I don't even own enough clothing that would qualify to make it through a week. This would most certainly be a deal-breaker for me unless the compensation was otherwise SPECTACULAR.
- johan_larson 9y agoMeh. I would consider formal attire a minus, but not a deal-breaker. It's a nuisance to take care of, but at least it looks good.
- javier2 9y agoYeah, but coding in a tie every day when there are options is a tough sell for me..
- johan_larson 9y agoIf a tie is really uncomfortable, you may be wearing shirts with necks that are too narrow. Ask a salesperson to measure you for correct fit. If it's the flopping around you object to, get a tie clip or consider a bow tie.
- xraystyle 9y agoIt's not that a shirt and tie is uncomfortable, it's that a t-shirt IS comfortable. If I can pick between two jobs where I sit at a desk all day in front of a keyboard, and only one requires a button-down shirt and a tie, the tie job can suck it. Why would I volunteer for that? Additionally, I think in terms of tech jobs, especially in California, you'd actually have to go looking for a place that makes you wear a tie. I don't think I've interviewed anywhere in my adult life that had a dress code other than 'you have to wear some kind of pants in the office'.
- myrandomcomment 9y agoI work for a startup in Silicon Valley (hiring devs btw). I work from home most days because the drive from Los Gatos to Menlo Park is a nightmare. Tee and jeans are the normal dress code or track suites if you are one of our Easten European coders. ;) I go to Asia a lot on business. I am sit in Tokyo right now, in a suite and tie. I have a closet full. Only place I have to wear them - NYC, London and Tokyo. Oh well. Bespoke of course ;) The subway sucks in a suite in the summer in Tokyo. Also they have a mandate to reduce energy hardcore after the earthquake so the AC is set at 28C the offices.
- taway_1212 9y ago28c in the offices in a rich industrialized country? I wonder how much productivity they loose because of that.
- Markoff 9y agoif it's 35-40 outside you don't wanna collapse when you step outside, just because inside office you had 20-21, which actually means free degrees less since temperature sensor is usually on unit at ceiling with hot air
- thatwebdude 9y ago> which actually means free degrees less since I see what you did that. I'm not sure if you meant that, though.
- herbst 9y agothis is 100% anecdotal. But I got the impression that you get used to it rather fast if the climate is consistently hot for a while. Source: I got used to Bangkok's climate in a month and happily worked with a fan only, without AC
- wingerlang 9y agoHow? My countersource is that I didn't get used to it at all (several years) and seemingly neither of my co workers have either. The days when AC is off in the office, well it's pretty much empty.
- R_haterade 9y agoSo when do I get to start wearing my overalls to my coding job?
- swalling 9y agohttp://www.gq.com/story/the-male-romper-is-here http://www.gq.com/story/the-male-romper-is-here You're welcome
- R_haterade 9y agoOh god that's just disgraceful.
- elihu 9y agoAs a programmer, it's tempting to think that if we were still operating under 1950's social norms, I'd be the guy wearing a suit, but realistically I'd probably be the guy wearing coveralls with my name stitched on the front. Maybe part of the problem with dress codes is that we (or most of us) aren't the self-employed white-collar professionals who have much to gain by looking successful to their customers. We're actually the blue-collar assembly-line factory workers. No one outside our immediate circle of co-workers has any reason to know or care what we look like.
- ElderScrolls 9y agoThis. Gone are the days of twenty-tiered hierarchies. And as companies outsource, disrupt, and automate into tiny modules of CTOs/CEOs selling products, it becomes less and less important as social structures break down in this gig economy. I think the future will view suit and ties as just another individual expression of taste among the sea of new ideas competing for paying customers - who may or may not really care how you look.
- jernfrost 9y agoEverything is relative I guess. Compared to Norwegian workplace Americans are usually very dressed up even in the tech industry. In our case it had nothing to do with tech industry norms or trying to be efficient. Actually I am highly sceptical to the premise of the article. I think it is wrong. The Bay Area was full of hippies. I'd rather say it was the political movement against conservatism which killed the company dresscode. That would be a more fitting description of what happened in Norway. It was political radicalism among the young in the early 70s. Silicon valley was full of young people heavily indpired by this movement. Just read Steve Jobs biography ;-)
- jbb67 9y agoI think people don't understand that today's business suit and shirt WERE considered smart casual back when people started wearing them. This was retained in business for some time after fashion changed in general use. It's not just that dress codes have changed, more that what constitutes smart casual changed.
- deleted 9y ago[deleted]
- syphilis2 9y agoOthers considered the external appearance the manifestation of internal character. That philosophy is bound to overlook technical greatness, but it contributed to centuries of beautiful artwork in the daily objects of common people. Not devoting care to appearances is, perhaps unintentionally, a rejection of art and artistry. We have the opportunity to contribute to our descendents, the same way our ancestors left so many interesting things behind.
- AceyMan 9y agoI have strong opinions on this topic from a differing set of influences. In unranked order: 0. From a part of the US where how you dress a metric for how earnestly your intentions are; be it prayer, asking for a date, or (as mentioned above) interviewing for a job. 1. Military influences: Dad in Navy; lived and visited a big base quite often, knew many veterans (see 2, below). Uniforms in that context subsumed the above (0, above), and added how, for the military services (poster-children for "highly ordered & massively scaled"!) , uniforms matched their operations to a tee. 2. I worked for an airline for a decade-plus and got deep into air transport operations. From the day I was hired, until I resigned, I experienced or witnessed all the different ways uniforms rocked, with one or two counter-cases where the letter of the law was, let's say, liberally interpreted <frown>. Yet, overall, in real-world use, uniforms were clearly advantageous and I got the hang of it in no time. 3. I hope I'm not alone in this, but for me, donning a nice, fresh, crisp uniform - whatever style it might be - makes me feel more assured, more vigorous, more ... "I got this" 'tude than if I just wear whatever. (See 'Interview' block below.) As for day-to-day, on-the-job; it's just fun to mix it up (time & laundry permitting). Today was a blazer with a bow tie (MaxAccountantMode, heh), but to wear any tie is rare; maybe a blazer or sportcoat twice a week, at most, with the daily usual being a collared knit shirt (as made famous by Izod (!)) and intact darker dyed jeans, or industrial hiking khakis( which are my new favorites). Finally: interviews. I wear a dark suit, shined shoes, pressed shirt (often new), proper socks, proper tie that's properly knotted. OMG ... I probably look like a salesman <see above>. But my batting average is pretty good, so I'm not sure I should change the recipe. Cheers, /Acey +1 thread
- Dunan 9y ago"3. I hope I'm not alone in this, but for me, donning a nice, fresh, crisp uniform - whatever style it might be - makes me feel more assured, more vigorous, more ... "I got this" 'tude than if I just wear whatever. (See 'Interview' block below.)" I have often thought that one of the hidden motives behind the recent trend of making casual dress near-mandatory is to prevent rank-and-file employees from feeling this sense of self-confidence and the unconscious additional respect they would get from people around them when they dress with some formality. I know I felt it the first time I had a professional job interview when in college; the people around me looked at me and spoke to me in a slightly more respectful way than they would have if I had been wearing typical college-boy casual.
- johan_larson 9y agoI remember speaking with some IBM veterans who had been around long enough to see the transition from suits and ties to casualish wear. Some of them spoke wistfully of the old days, and the point they all brought up was that while the old rules may not have been all that comfortable, they were simple and clear.
- Yizahi 9y agoI worked for IBM as contractor a few years ago and they requested that whole team of contractors should sit in IBM office with sales guys. Now as you can imagine it was hilarious class division - sales guys in suits, black boots and stuff, conducting important meetings with bankers and in the same open office 20 or so "IT guys" in t-shirts, shorts and sandals :) .
- joycey 9y agoThat's definitely true, and I would argue that "casual work attire" is even more ambiguous for women. One of the things I realized during my first internship is that "casual" and "casual work appropriate" aren't the same thing, even though every recruiter and manager I've spoken to has said to just wear what I'd wear casually on the weekends. There are some types of casual clothing that I wear--such as shorts, low-cut tops, crop tops, strapless anything, shorter dresses or skirts, etc--that are not work appropriate, even if this is not explicitly said or encoded in a company dress code. That being said, I would never sacrifice the luxury of wearing casual clothing to work in exchange for being able to make more straight-forward sartorial decisions.
- speedplane 9y agoIt's not just biz-casual, all business attire is harder for women. My cousin is a lawyer in Texas, and in court the judge (yes, a judge), made a comment about her not being in a skirt. This judge was from a different era, but the incident happened within the last few years. Pretty unbelievable. I previously worked a biz-cas place, and while everyone griped about the ambiguity, eventually you get the sense of the dos and donts and fall into line. Just takes more time.
- dalbasal 9y agoTyler Cowen (in his typical counter-narrative style) suggests casual culture may anti-dynamism, particularly of the class mobility type. The argument (which is not fully formed, I think) is that signalling exists anyway. In a more formal envirnonment, you can signal seriousness or whatnot by dressing in a good suit to make a cerrtain impression. In a casual environment, you can't signal with your clothes but that means signals just become more subtle and nuanced. I think Cowen is saying that casual culture means social signals are harder to fake. You might think "great! Meritocracy.*" But, merit is not a drop in replacement for formal social signals. Informal signals are. What actually replaces the suit, watch and shiny shoes is p speech, body language (or a google search revealing your prestigous keynote speech) that one is a member of a particular group. It's much harder for outsiders to tick the boxes and blend in. Interesting thought.
- oblio 9y agoP speech?
- mseebach 9y agoThese are the relevant links for the idea: http://www.econtalk.org/archives/2017/05/tyler_cowen_on_1.html http://www.econtalk.org/archives/2017/05/tyler_cowen_on_1.ht... (about half-way down, search for "casualness") > * But what I find striking is societies with a lot of upward mobility often tend to have strict dress codes. So you see this today with Mormons, at Mormon businesses. You see it in Japan in its heyday years--you know, the businessman or journeyman suit, they more or less all looked the same. There's something about upward mobility where actually clothing is not that casual and one is being more formal in trying to impress; and that is a [?]. But the thing about being casual is it actually makes it harder for people to prove themselves.* And a follow-up: http://marginalrevolution.com/marginalrevolution/2017/05/informal-dress-social-mobility-sicilian-perspective.html http://marginalrevolution.com/marginalrevolution/2017/05/inf... > When I [a correspondent, not Cowen] was a young associate at the biggest law firm in Rome, casual friday was the time when my Sicilian provincial middle-lower class background was most transparent. I didn’t have the money for smart but impressive casual clothing. But above all I didn’t have the cultural and social capital to know how to dress casual in the right way. In general, social norms often play a substantial role as a level playing field. The people who benefit from their removal are those who can quickly understand and adapt to the unarticulated, informal rules that govern all human interaction. I'm happy I don't have to wear a suit and tie every day (and slightly sad that I never have, but that's a different discussion), but let's not pretend that "no dresscode" is actually to be taken literally if you have any intention of advancing in the hierarchy that we pretend isn't there.
- OliverJones 9y ago"the most radical shift in dress standards in human history" OK, let's all hyperventilate. For most of the human history the author's mentioning, the old Monty Python schtick was the truth. Q. 'ow do you know he's a king? A. 'e isn't covered with s$$t. Seriously, today's business world has customs and status symbols that are just as rigid as yesterday's. They're just different.
- SmellyGeekBoy 9y agoWhat the hell!? This sounds like a genuine case of child abuse...
- SAI_Peregrinus 9y agoThat's the point of Catholic school, isn't it?
- erikbye 9y agoCatholics and abuse and you are surprised?
- ConceptJunkie 9y agoYeah, because today's generation of know-nothing, entitled snowflakes is so much better.
- erikbye 9y agoA person is either Catholic or a know-nothing, entitled snowflake? What a binary world you live in.
- deleted 9y ago[deleted]
- Fricken 9y agoHell exactly. A little taste of it here and there so you know better not to end up there.
- JustSomeNobody 9y agoNot just sounds like... it is child abuse. People would do well to read up on trauma informed care and Adverse Childhood Experiences.
- TallGuyShort 9y agoEating a dog biscuit for disrupting class is childhood trauma? Holy hell you people must have had some privileged childhoods.
- minikites 9y agoWe absolutely still have dress codes, they're just more ambiguous now: http://putthison.com/post/144964888828/the-end-of-office-dress-codes-the-new-york-times http://putthison.com/post/144964888828/the-end-of-office-dre... >Unless you work in a creative industry and live in a big city (read: basically NYC), you probably can’t wear anything too fashionable or avant-garde to work. We’re not talking about Rick Owens, but even somewhat tame designers such as Robert Geller and Stephan Schneider. And if everyone is wearing shorts and t-shirts, the sharpest you can look is in chinos. New, open office spaces still have dress codes – they’re just softly coded as social norms, not hard written into rulebooks. >Dressing now follows subtle, in-group views – those who understand them know how to navigate the corporate world; those who don’t pay a price.
- deleted 9y ago[deleted]
- Norfair 9y agoI enjoy wearing suits to work. Sadly, at some tech companies it is a bad idea nowadays. I wore a suit to work at Google and Facebook and regularly got called security on. I made sure to always keep my badge close.
- ck425 9y agoUntil recently I had a worked with a friend who wears nothing but suits, not just at work but in day to day life. People found it odd for a few months but then he quickly got a rep as that really well dressed guy and most folk enjoyed it. Admittedly it helped that most of his suits were a bit more out there than typical business suits. Think slightly hipster barbershop quartet. The man had some damn nice jackets.
- Neliquat 9y agoAs long as they are decent quality. I have an aquaintance who dresses up for events in cheap terrible suits and he looks like a caracature of a used car salesman. He is genuinely embarrasing to be around, but thinks the attention is positive, because people recodnise him now. Nice guy, but I can't help but think more people need to know, so they don't do the same.
- magic_beans 9y agoThat is hilarious and sad.
- wyldfire 9y ago> regularly got called security on Boy, this seems pretty surprising. Other folks at google or facebook decided that you looked out of place and then called security? What do executives at FB and google wear?
- MiddleEndian 9y agoI work at Google and I don't think I've ever seen an employee wear a suit to work, maybe a blazer but definitely no ties. People who are at a certain level of leadership and above seem to wear button down shirts most of the time, usually with jeans. The only time I saw people in formal attire was at a masquerade-themed holiday party.
- Tharkun 9y agoThere are two types of company I refuse to work for: 1. Companies under French management 2. Companies with a dress code.
- thearn4 9y ago> Companies under French management I'm curious about this one, how come?
- corpMaverick 9y agoI am curious too. I have a french coworker and he says the same thing.
- Tharkun 9y agoI've had the misfortune of working under French management twice. Once because I was young and dumb, and once because my employer's company was sold to a French competitor. In both cases things were horrible, and I've heard similar (or worse) stories from other devs under French management. It mostly boils down to maddening bureaucracy. Pointless meetings (when everything is decided in the hallways before the meeting starts, why have a meeting?). An utterly bizarre obsession with certification over competence. You have a degree from this uni? You're hired! Even if you're as useless as they come. You're very skilled but don't have a degree from their favourite uni? Need not apply. Simulating work is more important than working. You must be present from 9 to 5 at all cost. Want something trivial done? Be prepared to submit it in writing (hard copy!) to management. You can expect a reply in about a month.
- javier2 9y agoI've worked with two french (really great guys!) that shared the same sentiment. 9-5 at all cost, looking busy was adamant compared to completing actual work. 2 hour lunches... They would probably never work in their home country again. There are probably exceptions, but they both worked for big banks in Paris (not the same).
- magic_beans 9y ago
- thearn4 9y agoWhere I'm at (NASA), there is a broad spectrum of dress formality. Generally I do the typical polo shirt and khaki or jeans. When giving a local presentation or low-level sight visit, business casual. When going to a conference or getting a visit from HQ/congress/president's staff, business suit. I notice more academics having the same approach as well. I dress to match expectations, but generally I'm past the point where visually impressing someone would impact my upward mobility.
- gadders 9y agoI remember 20-odd years ago I was working for UBS the investment bank in the city of London just as "Casual Friday" was becoming a thing. One Friday I looked out of my office window near Liverpool Street Station and saw about a dozen smartly dressed gents in pinstripe suits with rolled umbrellas and bowler hats holding placards protesting against Casual Friday. I suspect it may well have been a stunt, but it was funny to watch.
- golergka 9y agoEverybody's talking about social norms and signalling, but there's still one objective thing about clothing - climate and health. How could a person in a suit survive in 30+ degrees Celsius? I just can't imagining wearing anything else than shorts and T-shirts in the summer that wouldn't give me a heat stroke or some other heat and sweat-related nastiness.
- daemin 9y agoYou can get specially made summer suits made out of light and breathable material like linen. Obviously you wouldn't wear a whole 3 piece suit in the middle of a 40 degree summer day. But the reality is that if you need to wear a suit to work, you're not working outdoors in the heat, you're working indoors in air conditioned comfort.
- VLM 9y agoIf you're familiar with the black and white movie "To kill a mockingbird" the dad/lawyer wore a seersucker suit. Its hard to explain verbally, its like silk-thin corduroy. And how to explain corduroy fabric to someone not a child of the 70s.. um... Lets just stick with seersucker is like 3-d silk but its actually very fine cotton. Its about as thin of a fabric as you can make that's not translucent. Also traditional "real" seersucker suits were unlined although "fake" modern seersucker suits are lined. Fitting a seersucker suit is non-trivial if done right because too tight and you'll roast and too baggy looks bad but there's this magic size where you get maximal cooling while still looking awesome. Being a cotton its so "fun" to deal with the shrinkage. Its also not fun for the tailor/mfgr because they put a lot of work into faking thickness in the lapels. Here you are wearing something lighter than a polo shirt in total, but the lapels will be cut to appear 1/8 inch thick. Again, this was "real" seersucker and modern "fake" seersucker might be pretty warm without air conditioning. It feels like wearing summer weight pajamas, its actually very comfortable while being stylish. Also digital video/photo algorithms famously don't work well with the higher contrast seersucker colors.
- tjr225 9y agoI was surprised by how well dressed the Japanese are every single day in Tokyo. It has inspired me to put more effort into what I wear.
- torrent-of-ions 9y agoI dress up for work. I am one of the better dressed people at my work. I wear a coloured shirt, smart jeans, brown dress shoes (brogues) and a sports jacket. Yes, for my workplace, this is "up". I wish I could wear a suit and white shirt to work, but a general rule of thumb is only to dress one notch higher than the median. I used to wear the same as everyone else (shorts and t-shirt), but I really enjoy the separation between work and home that nice clothes bring. When I get home I remove my shirt and hang it up. I put my shoe trees in my shoes. On the weekend I dress casually. It feels good. If you always dress casually then you never dress casually. On Sundays I polish my shoes to a mirror shine. When my shirts are dirty I wash and iron them carefully. It's a discipline that gives meaning to my life.
- iamacynic 9y agoi think that if someone makes you dress a certain way, it's going to be tough to enjoy it. if you do it on your own, as a passion or just to differentiate yourself from others, it can be fun and even relieve stress.
- mjlangiii 9y agoI disagree that it is a greater point when you consider how important rituals are to many people and gp post has a very valid point.
- camelNotation 9y agoI agree, it's a similar effect for me. I like that my dress pants and dress shirts serve to separate work from home. I view my morning routine, with the special clothes, special shoes, special bag, and even my "special" commuter car (that I don't drive on weekends) as a sort of liturgical practice. I wake up, I shower, I groom, I put the clothes on a certain way, I gather my things in the same order, I get one of only a handful of breakfast options, make coffee, and leave for work. I even kiss my wife and kids in the same order (youngest to oldest, oldest of course being my wife). This seems boring and repetitive to a lot of people, but it's actually incredibly freeing for me. Because it is all so routine, I usually spend my mornings thinking about the book I was reading the night before, or the news, or some other topic. I don't have to pay attention to what I am doing because it just happens without "me" really being part of it. It allows me to focus on ideas that matter to me instead of menial activities. For me, this liturgy would be interrupted without those special clothes and special shoes. I would likely find myself making choices and decisions I really don't have a desire to make.
- Shinchy 9y agoIt's funny because for a long time I would wear casual dress down clothing to my jobs and be cool with that. However now that my company has a no jeans policy I will wear a full suit, tie, shoes getup and I really enjoy it. I've amassed a good sized collection of high end suits and just really enjoy wearing them. Obviously though I really love fashion.
- matt_s 9y agoOne perspective in the article was about productivity and some belief that professional business attire had fewer distractions, so in theory helped productivity. After working 20 years in a large corporate environment where you could and I did accidentally literally brush shoulders in the hallway with a Fortune 500 executive this is utter nonsense. There are so many opportunities in a large company to improve productivity that people's attire would be near the bottom of that list. I like working more in a startup culture where there is less ceremonial BS and more focus on delivering value. I think a big factor with Americans dressing so casually is that how you dress is no longer a representation of your status in society.
- VLM 9y ago"I think a big factor with Americans dressing so casually is that how you dress is no longer a representation of your status in society." As a thought experiment this might be happening with car ownership right now WRT the glowing gaslighting reports about the success of gig economy car services, and in theory there's no reason it won't happen with real estate. "Casual real estate prices" is an interesting meme to contemplate. In the really old days, people used to say an ounce of gold is what a professionals suit should cost. It still does cost that much today, centuries later, its just professionals don't wear business suits as much anymore LOL. Or perhaps the era of LARPing is ending and non-professionals are no longer wearing professional suits...
- ThomaszKrueger 9y agoAt one company I interviewed the director of development was wearing bermuda shorts, flip flops and a worn out T shirt. As I looked around, most all employees were in shorts. All work in a common area. When I started working I had my own private office and wore a shirt and tie at least. Fridays were "casual" - no tie. I liked it better like that.
- wonderwonder 9y agoI work in a 4 man software team in a small company where the dress code is as long as it doesn't get you arrested it's cool. I just wear jeans, t shirt and flipflops. A lot of people wear shorts and shirts with curse words. Anything goes. It is a music company though so that probably has a lot to do with it.
- thatwebdude 9y agoThis thread reminds me that I need to donate those three small pairs of slacks at the back of my closet gathering dust. And maybe find some shirts that aren't the "T" variety.
- driverdan 9y agoI'd ask the opposite question, why do people still dress formally in the workplace? Or more specifically, why do men still wear ties? Ties are the most pointless piece of clothing and have no practical purpose. If you want some color get a nice colored shirt.
- hultner 9y agoI wouldn't agree. First to tackle the colour part, having a tie in a nice color offers a great accent to the larger canvas which allows you to use bolder colours then when applying it to the entire shirt. And for the practicality I find myself half freezing to death this time a year when I walk to work without a tie (around 45°F/8°C with brisk winds). Having a tie efficiently blocks the wind from entering the chest area through the button seams and around the neck without requiring me to bring a bulky scarf (which is very unpleasant in the afternoon when temperatures have risen to about 70°F/21°C.
- Arizhel 9y ago>And for the practicality I find myself half freezing to death this time a year when I walk to work without a tie (around 45°F/8°C with brisk winds). That's why they invented this thing called a "jacket".
- Neliquat 9y ago45f/8c is hardly freezing to death, you need better circulation and a tougher skin if that is cold to you without a tie. You sound snotty and entilted to an extreme.
- ianamartin 9y agoI wish we could. My company has a very strict dress code. Suits and ties are recommended, but slacks and a dress shirt and sport coat are the bare minimum. Suits are required on many occasions. And man, let me tell you, I do not look good after schlepping 3/4th of a mile to the train and another 1/5 of a mile to the office in high summer in NYC in a suit. I look like a sweaty, disgusting mess. I basically just work from home during the summer except for when I really have to go into the office.
- tbabb 9y agoI feel like the author of this article hasn't worked in silicon valley, because it doesn't touch at all on what I feel is the cultural significance of casual attire: Wearing what you want says that your employer values you for your brain, not your willingness to conform. Formal dress runs counter to cultures that value lateral thinking, iconoclasm, and non-conformism; all the things that have made silicon valley successful. A suit says "I am an interchangeable cog." Normal clothing says that you're an individual with identity and tastes. (Plus it is hopelessly uncool to be/work for squares).
- upvotinglurker 9y agoNormal clothing says that you're an individual with identity and tastes ... that conform to the mainstream? (otherwise it wouldn't be "normal"?)
- suyash 9y agoExactly, the OP got it backwards.
- exabrial 9y agoThis made me smile because I was thinking the exact opposite thing :) I think a lot of hipsters dress alike (skinny jeans, boat shoes, et all) and they're worried about not conforming! (not accusing you of being a hipster, just playing on silicon valley stereotypes, no idea where you work)
- CoC_CRUSHER 9y agoThe trick is to wear kmart level tshirts and shorts.
- jawilson2 9y ago“Everyone in this room is wearing a uniform, and don’t kid yourself.” --Frank Zappa
- PatentTroll 9y ago
- exabrial 9y agoThis is an opinion that may trigger some people on HN. Don't take it personally, it's not an attack. I like dressing up for work, because it shows you care about what you're doing. Nowadays, it seems every silicon valley company tests in production (Facebook, Google Docs, Even some parts of Android) because they just don't care about quality or user experience. I miss the days of getting a release ready and patched, having very high confidence we worked the bugs out of everything before shipping it to the customer, with a list of features we added or things we fixed. It built up a lot of excitement too, customers would anticipate and ask for updates, eager to deploy them or test them out. Maybe it's the background I worked in (it's been medical software or insurance claims processing)... so it actually matters if things work correctly the first time.
- suyash 9y agoHow are those two arguments related? Seems like you are making two separate points.
- LordKano 9y agoI was under the impression that some workplaces relaxed dress codes to increase morale without paying more money.
- KboPAacDA3 9y agoEven the Dilbert comic strip has embraced casual dress with what Scott Adams calls business dorky.
- ar15saveslives 9y ago> Of course that made them, for that time, unusable! So he had to toss them. Honest question: your mother didn't bother to work anywhere, why couldn't she help him? And I like this "he had to toss them", as they lived apart, and it wasn't a family's loss.
- CompanyLaser 9y agoShe was an artist. Making money isn't a requirement for something to be work.
- loco5niner 9y agoHuh, I think I'll become an artist. It sounds nice.
- antisthenes 9y agoThat's just the attitude of most american women...
- ar15saveslives 9y agoThere's a wikipedia article about american wives: http://bit.ly/2rRDE78 http://bit.ly/2rRDE78
- dang 9y agoWe've banned this account for repeatedly violating the HN guidelines.
- dang 9y agoAn "honest question" wouldn't use a loaded phrase like "didn't bother". This is a nasty form of personal attack, and those are not allowed here. Since you followed it up with something even nastier, we've banned this account. We detached this subthread from https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14406978 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14406978 and marked it off-topic.
- strin 9y agoThis has something to do with organizations being flat. In a monolithic top-down hierarchical organization, employees are expected to conform. So attire rules reflects the culture where management and top-down decision making is common. In a flat organization, decentralized decision making happens more often. So the culture might shift towards encouraging individual differences and more freedom in work style, including casual attire.
- Ihateyouallhn 9y agoWhat a privileged cunt you are
- Ihateyouallhn 9y agoYou sound like a weak bitch
- nitwit005 9y ago> The office was, until a few decades ago, the last stronghold of fashion formality. Silicon Valley changed that. The trend was obviously coming to an end if we're already using terms like "last stronghold", regardless of what Silicon Valley might have done.
- justforFranz 9y agoBecause they're fat.
- eip 9y agoI welcome a return to the days when men dressed more fashionably: http://i.imgur.com/kAKRWQCg.jpg http://i.imgur.com/kAKRWQCg.jpg
- johan_larson 9y agoCoders have been dressing funny for a long time. Check out this smart chap from the Multics OS project. http://multicians.org/mulimg/ctc-sm.jpg http://multicians.org/mulimg/ctc-sm.jpg