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How I Ended Up In Solitary After Calling 911 For Help

• drpp 13y ago
  I was going to post it here. I wrote it. But you beat me!
  • GrinningFool 13y ago
    So can I ask why you chose Medium?
    • drpp 13y ago
      Trying out a new platform. I had some support from the editors. It looks nice. I wanted to get it off my chest and it was a path of least resistance. Some other outlets wanted me to do much more rewriting.
  • sergiotapia 13y ago
    I sincerely hope you sue and get paid an exorbitant amount of money for your trouble. You were kidnapped and held without charge, abused and lord knows what else.
    • BlackDeath3 13y ago
      Assuming the truth of this story, I agree. Best of luck to you, drpp!
  • doorty 13y ago
    My girlfriend lives right there. We go to that bar sometimes. She recently broke her elbow on a bike accident. We would of called 911 in the same situation. This could of easily been me and her. Wow. What can I do!?
• mindslight 13y ago
  OP definitely needs to sue the city, as well as the aggressors personally. Every cop involved in this situation should be spending years in prison for battery, kidnapping, false imprisonment, and torture. Until justice for victims of the police becomes routine, they're nothing but another gang and the only good cop is a dead cop.
  • carbocation 13y ago
    > OP definitely needs to sue the city, as well as the aggressors personally. I upvoted this comment for that; it seems like a prudent step to take. > the only good cop is a dead cop And then I got here and wish I could undo. I don't understand why you would say such a thing. That's just not right.
    • gamache 13y ago
      That's the attitude police departments prop up and justify every time they close ranks around officers who commit this kind of misconduct, instead of feeding the bad cops to the dogs and maintaining high standards of public service. Is the attitude morally right? Immaterial.
      • NegativeK 13y ago
        An attitude of fuck the police on the side of the citizens makes the problem worse. Both sides have to meet. Also, like hell morality is immaterial.
        • gamache 13y ago
          No, there is no requirement for both sides to meet. Police serve the citizens. That's how public service goes. Their job is hard. They deal with assholes the likes of which most of us never see, they get shot at and kicked and punched and spat at and sworn at, and still their job is to protect and serve the public without fail. No shortcuts.
          • NegativeK 13y ago
            Every public servant is a person. Refusing to recognize that isn't pragmatic.
      • baddox 13y ago
        Of course police departments do this. Oppressive groups use public disdain of the oppressive groups to justify intensifying their oppression. That doesn't mean the disdain isn't justified.
• surlyadopter 13y ago
  Rope.
• thehodge 13y ago
  Previous discussion : https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7231012 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7231012
• buckbova 13y ago
  > I begged them to watch out for my recently broken right elbow. They don't give a shit about your elbow nor should they. Everyone who gets put in cuffs complains about some current or former injury. I'm not sure I buy every second of your recount. but there is a big difference between a good samaritan and a do-gooder. If the cops tell you it is time to leave the scene, it's 1 AM on a city street, you've been drinking, then it's time to leave. Yes cops are generally assholes. The nice guys don't last out there.
  • nav1 13y ago
    > They don't give a shit about your elbow nor should they. What? Just because you are being arrested doesn't mean that they can treat you like that.
    • squintychino 13y ago
      They have guns. They have the power to end your existence. So yes, they CAN treat people like this. We gave them that power when they were hired and our tax dollars started paying their salary.
      • ryguytilidie 13y ago
        Its almost as though the citizens can remove that power if its abused... Is your point that because citizens gave police power at some point that they can't possibly object to them abusing it...?
        • marcosdumay 13y ago
          Well, it's not very rational to tell your objections to the same people that you want to take power away. Yes, the police must treat every innocent person with respect and even reserve some dose of respect to criminals. Yes, it's our duty to try to fix the situation when that do not help. But no, it's not advisable to try to fix that in the exact instant the problem is happening.
      • 13y ago
• dmitrygr 13y ago
  Learn the lesson: police are never your friend, helping others WILL get you punished eventually - all good deeds are punished in the long run, police can and will do whatever they want to you with no repercussions. Keep your head down and enjoy your free country.
  • BlackDeath3 13y ago
    I think that's a bit of an exaggeration, don't you?
    • dmitrygr 13y ago
      not at all this story is a great example of this, but there are others
      • BlackDeath3 13y ago
        Of course there are others. There are also many people having pleasant experiences with cops every day - they don't make it to the top of Hacker News.
        • drcube 13y ago
          Really? Who has pleasant experiences with cops besides other cops? Honest question.
          • BlackDeath3 13y ago
            Me. Last night, actually, and it wasn't the first time. Here's another honest question: do you actually believe that nobody has pleasant experiences with police?
            • drcube 13y ago
              Well, for the most part they're like lawyers: you only need them around for shitty situations, so that's what they're remembered for. I'm not saying all cops are bad people (though almost all police forces are bad institutions), but why would you just hang out and have a good time with a cop, in his cop role? I'm sure they have friends, but they're not being cops when they're watching the game with their friends. My comment was more about the fact that police don't walk the beat and help old ladies with their groceries anymore. When cops are around, shit's going down. So even if they are doing their job professionally, it isn't a pleasant experience. And if they're doing their job poorly, it's a nightmare.
• sergiotapia 13y ago
  And this is why I fucking HATE COPS. I don't care if it's the few, this god damn country-wide gang is a piece of shit and I will do everything I can to avoid them and teach my two children about staying away as well. Fuck these pigs.
  • BlackDeath3 13y ago
    It's really easy to focus on the bad ones, but good cops exist whether you know it or not.
    • sergiotapia 13y ago
      Like I said, don't give two shits. The risk is too high. All pigs are evil to me and I'll keep the hell away from them. If they abused a white woman in her 30's what the hell do you think they'll do to a latino like me? Pfff.
      • BlackDeath3 13y ago
        Your mistake is your idea of "they". They aren't all one. I don't know that I can blame you for taking the "safe" approach and avoiding police, but don't punish them for your irrationally-negative outlook.
        • kelnos 13y ago
          I don't find the parent's attitude irrational at all. If police brutality was a rare unicorn-like event, then I could understand your point of view, but it's not. Not even remotely so. I've been lucky in that my interactions with police have ranged from professionally neutral (mostly traffic cops) to indifferent and bored (cop at a police station clearly not giving two shits that I'd just been mugged). (Of course, me being a white male helps with this "luck".) But the stuff I hear about makes me wonder: if I need the police at any point in time, what are my chances of getting a cop that's helpful vs. one that's on a power trip and wants to fuck with me? I seriously wonder about that, and I seriously will think twice about calling 911 in an emergency. And that's the problem. It doesn't matter one bit what the percentage is: maybe 0.00001% of cops are bad, and the rest are good. But the perception is that a significant portion of cops are just power-hungry assholes who love being able to strap on a gun and show that they have authority over you. Perception matters more than reality sometimes.
• GuiA 13y ago
  Necessary link to Pr. Duane's lecture: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6wXkI4t7nuc http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6wXkI4t7nuc Don't talk to the police. Ever.
  • sneak 13y ago
    Don't pay taxes in places the cops are mostly criminals. Ever.
    • taybin 13y ago
      This doesn't seem like practical advice.
    • mahyarm 13y ago
      You can find shitty police behavior everywhere, including the EU, Germany and Canada. The probability is just different.
      • rdl 13y ago
        "Mostly" speaks to probability.
      • dhughes 13y ago
        I'm not anti cop but the Sûreté du Québec have a pretty bad reputation.
    • EpicEng 13y ago
      This will force you to become very intimate with the local prison guard population however.
      • rdl 13y ago
        He means "move", not "evade taxes while living there".
        • elohesra 13y ago
• kremlin 13y ago
  I remember, once, a very cynical person telling me not to call the cops, in any circumstance, unless mine or someone else's survival or long-term well being is completely dependent on it. If you see someone shot dead in the street, for example, don't call the cops; leave. You're the first suspect if you do anything else, and you'll be treated like one. I was very put out by this attitude. I'm starting to wonder if it's perhaps quite realistic. I don't know what the cynic would have suggested in this situation. I don't believe he would have said, 'leave her to fend for herself,' but perhaps to call a hospital directly, or ask her to call a family member or something, I don't know. Police are dangerous. They have too much power and not enough brains. I'm an optimist; I think there must be some possible infrastructure that incentivises police to be good, and incentivises everyone in the system to weed out those who are not. The current system doesn't resemble that remotely, and for now, perhaps the cynic is right.
  • joesmo 13y ago
    Your cynical friend was correct. If you have to call 911 for someone else, do it anonymously. As long as police (internal affairs) are the only ones to police police, there will never be any justice. Also, remember that suing police hardly ever works. Police have immunity by law and they use that to their advantage to cover up any cruel and sick acts they feel like. They are above the law. Ask any minority and they will confirm this is the case.
    • kylec 13y ago
      I agree. I posted this elsewhere in this thread, but I want to say it again: If police officers are officers of the court, judges should have the authority (and use the authority) to strip the officer of the authority to act as an officer. Much like contempt of court, it should not require formal hearings or process to immediately remove bad officers from duty. At that point the police department would effectively have an ordinary citizen on their payroll, unable to wear a uniform or make arrests or risk being charged with impersonating an officer and kidnapping.
  • owenjones 13y ago
    While I was a student living in a "gentrifying" part of the city, I once went outside to discover my car was full of bullets. Several in the hood, several through the windows, one in the rear tire and most disconcertingly one in the driver side headrest. When I called the police and the investigator came, I could tell I was instantly suspect #1. He began grilling me lengthily about my whereabouts the night before and who I lived with. An officer in blue joined as well and they were basically threatening to confiscate my car until I started talking about getting a lawyer. Of course this situation is nowhere near the authors in terms of harm or even potential harm, but it definitely showed me that ANY interaction with the police has the potential to go VERY badly for you no matter what.
• a3voices 13y ago
  It sounds like you didn't know the simple guideline "always do what the police say". Otherwise you're gonna have a bad time.
• rayiner 13y ago
  The narrative is totally not credible. There are gaps where its obvious that the author did something to elicit a reaction, but what that was is omitted from the story. My guess would be that the author was being a smart ass, and given the drinking more belligerent than he recalls in retrospect. No, the cops shouldn't have roughed him up just for being a pompous asshole,[1] but the author should tell the whole story. [1] "My instinct was to make this distinction go away, to show them I know our neighborhood is more complicated than that. To connect on human terms. I told them that it was an early stage startup; I’m doing this because I feel it’s a way to make the world around me better, to bring people joy through better food." My god imagine listening to this self indulgent tripe at 1 am while keeping your cool.
  • anateus 13y ago
    Just to provide a data point: I know the OP personally. I can't be sure that there are no omissions, but him saying things like that is not surprising and it doesn't feel like there are holes. His particular demeanor and pattern of speech would likely make it seem not so much pompous as just eccentric. He's very obviously earnest, and not in the naive way often encountered in the Bay Area these days. Trying to show you are "an upstanding citizen" in some way is an expression of privilege: the expectation that you can demonstrate membership of a group that is not automatically assumed to be guilty. To me, one of the core points of this story is that you can never assume you won't be perceived as a member of a group not so advantaged. Were I not very familiar with him, an interpretation such as yours would definitely be one of my high probability estimates, which is what compelled me to add my views. Take it as you will.
    • ForHackernews 13y ago
      > not in the naive way often encountered in the Bay Area these days. Really? Because reading this, he comes across as the epitome of naivete. Are people really this clueless about how to interact with cops? FTR: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i8z7NC5sgik http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i8z7NC5sgik
      • 13y ago
• pacaro 13y ago
  FWIW I'm not going to offer an opinion on whether 20+% is a good tip, but tipping with a credit card has a lower value to the server. All tips are notionally taxable income, whether a server chooses to declare all their cash tips is their choice, when you tip with a credit card it stops being their choice - and there's no way of telling how much of the tip is diverted by the establishment.
  • mbetter 13y ago
    > whether a server chooses to declare all their cash tips is their choice No, it's really not.
  • dctoedt 13y ago
    Downvoted for encouraging tax fraud.
    • aye 13y ago
      Upvoted for discouraging tax fraud.
    • mindslight 13y ago
      Yeah, it's our responsibility to fund the police to perform the beatings!
      • tptacek 13y ago
        That, and the roads that the ambulances use, and for that matter the ambulances. Sheesh.
        • mindslight 13y ago
          Well then, the administrators of roads and ambulances should probably lobby to have the police taxes be separable, before too many people decide to throw the baby out with the bathwater.
          • 13y ago
• interstitial 13y ago
  Can't have a Socialist Paradise with a police state to enforce your idealism.
• zacinbusiness 13y ago
  Generally I disagree that litigation is ever the answer. But in this case OP should take their jobs because they don't deserve to wear the badge. I admit that I dislike cops and that I've never had a positive interaction with one. But there are some cops who legitimately want to do a good job and make their city safer. And these guys are shitting all over that.
  • Gorbzel 13y ago
    What kind of idealistic fantasyland do you live in where litigation is never the answer?
    • ryguytilidie 13y ago
      The world where litigation versus police fails 99%+ of the time...?
      • baddox 13y ago
        It's weird that government tends to side with government.
    • vacri 13y ago
      If you don't have money to burn for a lawyer, litigation is basically a fantasyland.
    • josephlord 13y ago
      Generally => Normally in most situations. With exceptions. It does not mean never or always.
• yardie 13y ago
  After reading the first paragraph I already knew where this was headed. White America welcome to black America. You'll be arrested for nothing at all. The first time it happens you'll be really upset and threaten to sue, and file a police report. And when you do there will be some sort of roadblock, they won't have the forms, the officer in question wasn't on shift that night, the detective is quite hostile to you, the victim. You'll learn what I've learned. Don't trust the police for shit. All of the things I've listed I've done and it only made life difficult until I left for college.
  • adsenseclient 13y ago
    Third world countries have third world police for a reason: out of necessity.
  • deleted 13y ago
    [deleted]
  • Jun8 13y ago
    It seems you have been the victim of a similarly unjust arrest, but frankly I can't see how you "already knew where this was headed" after the first paragraph. Given the photo at the top, at first glance I assumed that the woman at the lectern was the OP, only towards the end of the story did I get understand that the OP was a man. I cannot see any reference to the OP being black in the text (his About thumbnail is too small to see clearly).
    • Gracana 13y ago
      yardie isn't saying the author was black. They're saying that this is the typical experience of black people's interactions with police in the united states. Whereas the author is surprised at being treated this way, many people learn to expect it.
    • deleted 13y ago
      [deleted]
  • pessimizer 13y ago
    As a black programmer, I remember the cliche about problems and regular expressions in my head as "regular expressions are like calling the cops." That's unfair to regular expressions, though, because I actually have seen them solve a problem before. Cops improving a situation? Never seen it.
• Lagged2Death 13y ago
  It's high time to just make the cops wear video cameras. A whole lot of this sort of crap could just vanish.
  • judk 13y ago
    Obama passed this law in Illinois, it launched his career to the Presidency. In jurisdictions that have this law, the cameras are amazingly unreliable. The failure rate is just huge..
    • esw 13y ago
      Yeah, it's crazy - the battery keeps getting disconnected right before an arrest.
  • krisdol 13y ago
    That evidence will never be available to be used against cops. This was in Texas. I don't recall the exact details. My bosnian friend was racially profiled (as hispanic) by the police. He was ticketed after not coming to a full stop, then arrested because the officer incorrectly assumed that his real driver's license was fake and that he was not a legal citizen. At the precinct, he was told some racist stuff by a working officer before being put in the cell. A lawyer took up his case, asserting that the conditions leading up to his arrest were not actually legal. What happened then? On the books, he didn't exist. He supposedly never spent a night in jail, was supposedly never arrested and taken in, the fees he paid for bail were supposedly never received or requested, the surveillance camera footage the night he was put in jail happened to be corrupted, and even if he succeeded in getting the bail money back, he'd be out at least an additional thousand for court an lawyer fees. Needless to say, they didn't pursue the case further.
    • aeturnum 13y ago
      Some police departments wear them, and they dramatically (~80% iirc) reduce complaints / reports by citizens. You can only have video footage go missing so many times before it starts to get old for judges / the media / etc.
• lettergram 13y ago
  I would press charges. I have seen multiple times police being shady, including one time when I was pulled over and told I could either pay the officer $40, or go into the court house for an $80 ticket. Supposedly I was speeding the road back, but I didn't even drive on the road they were talking about... Another time I turned in $2,000 I found in an envelope and asked when I could pick it up if no one claimed it. Called back a couple weeks later and they had no record of it. Point being, police officers (in my opinion) are no better than anyone else, they could be good or bad, but you need to help keep them in check.
  • rtkwe 13y ago
    You didn't get a receipt did you? Any time cops take anything get a receipt...
    • lettergram 13y ago
      I wrote a report, figured that was enough... oops.
      • rtkwe 13y ago
        If you'd gotten a copy of the report, with the receiving officer's signature that would have been a good start.
• cdelsolar 13y ago
  One thousand good cops do not make up for one bad cop. Cops nearly ruined my life in 2006. I will write about it someday, but suffice it to say, I am out at least $30K (didn't bother doing the math because it's too depressing) and still paying for something I ABSOLUTELY HAD NOTHING AT ALL TO DO WITH. My only mistake was saying anything besides "I would like to speak with a lawyer" over and over. Do not speak to cops, ever. They are not there to help you or find out the truth.
  • johngalt 13y ago
    The issue with the idea 'some good cops vs some bad cops' is that the good ones will still protect and aid the bad ones.
    • fnordfnordfnord 13y ago
      > they 'good ones' will still protect and aid the 'bad ones'. Those aren't good cops.
      • benched 13y ago
        And this comment does not grasp the issue. For practical purposes, you'd better assume there are no cops who are that good. In cop land, that would be 'saintly'
      • malka 13y ago
        but are those true scotish ?
  • Amezarak 13y ago
    This can't be said enough. I used to have faith in the fundamental goodness and rightness of the police. I knew, in the abstract, there were some bad apples, but doesn't every organization? Then several years ago I learned from experience that it doesn't matter. The concrete reality of what happens when a bad cop singles you out outweighs all the good cops in the world. I was out about 15k - which I really needed at the time - but that's not what sticks with me. What sticks with me is the fear and humiliation. I have had some bad times, but my arrest was the absolute bottom. Other than the immediate experience, I think part of it was the knowledge that it didn't matter that I was innocent, the full force of the law and the state had come down and declared me a scumbag among all the dregs of society. It's something that has to happen to you to understand, I think. Maybe it's just because I always regarded myself as a good, law-abiding (and not very humble) citizen, who did things the Right Way. I don't know. What I do know is to this day, I get anxious when someone even mentions the police, let alone when they show up. For the love of God don't ever, ever ever ever ever talk to the police. If the police want to arrest you they will arrest you. Talking can only make it worse. I thought I was being polite and helpful. It doesn't matter. The former sheriff of a nearby county (now a felon) said he had the job because he loved arresting bad guys. They will see bad guys everywhere they can.
• Gorbzel 13y ago
  > At this point, I’m left no choice but to present this case to the investigative court of public opinion, be it brave or foolish. Um, no, you can leave it to an actual court of law by finding a good attorney and filing a civil complaint. But until you find competent representation, here's a piece of advice: for the love of god and your own well-being, learn to STFU. The story makes it clear OP has no idea when to stop talking and observe his surroundings, even to his own detriment. Instead, he acted (and wrote) in such a way where he's constantly assuming the role of a victim and then being shocked when people treat him as such. Remember folks, you have the right to remain silent in any interaction with authorities (not just the police, pretty much only a judge can compel you to speak), and your failure to do so only ever leads to a world of hurt.
  • javajosh 13y ago
    Um, have you actually filed a civil suit against a police department? Do you know how expensive and time-consuming it is? Those who choose this route have me total admiration, as it is grossly expensive, it takes years, and it extends the suffering caused by mistreatment at the hands of those supposed to protect you manifold.
    • ryguytilidie 13y ago
      Yeah, I love the attitude of "look, if you want to make a complaint about police beating you and falsely imprisoning you, you should quit your job and invest hundreds of thousands of dollars in a case against them, anything else is stupid." Super realistic and clearly enabling a better world to happen very soon.
      • john_b 13y ago
        Have you ever sued the police?
        • ryguytilidie 13y ago
          I'm stretching my brain as hard as i can to figure out how this is relevant?
• javajosh 13y ago
  This happened to me last January in Seal Beach, CA. Only I was not courageous enough to step forward and be heard - there is a certain shame in being put in jail, even if you didn't do anything wrong. The shame is really on the officers, and the system the enables them to abuse the citizens who might even be operating under the delusion that the police are there to protect and serve, rather than bully, escalate, and abuse. And I hear the defensive tone in her voice. She feels, as I do, that many people in the public won't believe, or if they do believe, that they will rationalize the police behavior. Or even if they don't rationalize, they will keep quiet, feeling powerless and not strong enough to make a difference. But, what Peretz has shown me personally, is that there is a certain strength in numbers, and sharing your experience so that other people don't feel like they're the only one who got treated that way, that they are not the only one who got brutalized by American city police - and then were left with absolutely no options to keep them accountable. The system is fucked and it needs to change. Police should be required to record all audio and video of their actions, and provide this footage to anyone they interact with, on request. And if that device doesn't work, they should be severely reprimanded. (Officer Sasenbach of the SBPD, the one who threw me in jail without arrest and without reason, had a recording device which "failed" the night of our interaction.) Much of my experience was eerily familiar - the suddenness of the violence on the street, when Sasenbach decided I was trouble. The taunts from the jail keepers. The taking of clothing (jacket and shoes), and kept in a cell too cold to sleep in for 12 hours. Asking for a phone call, and being ignored. Asking if I was arrested, and being ignored. Asking what right they have to keep me, and having them smirk and say, "because I'm on this side, and you're on that side". When I filed a complaint, the sargeant assigned to the case was sullen, bored. Sasenbach's personal recorder was broken; the video feed in the cell i was kept in was broken. I could file another complaint if I wanted. I remember feeling so out-of-body, like the system I'd grown up to believe in, the system that was supposed to represent "the good guys" was completely upended. These were brutal, horrible people drunk on their power over me, and delighted to cause as much harm as they could get away with, for no other reason that they could. It was an important moment in my life, when my illusion about the state, the police, and the bare issue of who we trust with a monopoly of violence became starkly defined: none of us are safe. The police can invade our lives at will, and do what they want to us, and we are helpless to defend ourselves. The only thing preventing general rebellion is statistical: the number of people who "win" the shit lottery that is interacting with the cops is very low, and it's hard to convince others that they are indeed at risk of suffering the same treatment. Who knows, perhaps things will change.
• williamcotton 13y ago
  > Don’t call 911. Obviously, there are exceptions, but the sad lesson is, there are fewer than you’d think. Are you fucking kidding me? Do NOT listen to this advice. If you see someone injured, CALL 911! Do NOT move the person if there is suspicion of spinal or head injury. Wait for the HIGHLY TRAINED emergency response team to show up. > Call Lyft to take you to the hospital. (Worked well when I broke my elbow.) Are you fucking kidding me? ARE YOU FUCKING KIDDING ME? All of this is some sort of thinly veiled attack on our public servants and what seems to be public government infrastructure in general.
  • joesmo 13y ago
    Public servants. That's a good one. The only public the police serve are their own sick and cruel interests. If they served the public, perhaps they'd actually stop real crime.
  • altero 13y ago
    I would say that is not a joke but rational reaction to police state. Why 12 police man has to come to bike accident?
  • fr0sty 13y ago
    Even with "gold level" insurance a ride in an ambulance is $$$$. If your injury is not life threatening taking alternate transport to the Emergency Room is perfectly acceptable.
  • forgottenpass 13y ago
    All of this is some sort of thinly veiled attack on our public servants and what seems to be public government infrastructure in general. I'm all for calling bullshit on general unfounded anti-government rhetoric in general. But law enforcement are not your friends. They're trained that the citizen is an untrustworthy crook, why should we treat them any better?
    • williamcotton 13y ago
      Dude, this is about someone getting in to a bike accident. Please, for fuck's sake, if you see someone hit by a car or otherwise bleeding on the street, do the sane thing and call 911. I can't believe we're having this conversation...
• weinr0ck 13y ago
  http://photographyisnotacrime.com/ http://photographyisnotacrime.com/ Always film your interactions with the police, because they WILL lie to make themselves the hero and you the villain. Also, know your rights, exercise them. Especially your 5th amendment.
• josh2600 13y ago
  I know Peretz personally and he's one of the most rational people I've ever met. There's some question as to whether he should've left the scene or not and I think there's some discussion to be had there, but what happened afterwards is unquestionably wrong. This is who the police stripped naked and put in jail: http://www.brandeis.edu/magazine/2013/spring/featured-stories/afghan.html http://www.brandeis.edu/magazine/2013/spring/featured-storie... This is not a person we should fear. I understand that on some level putting Peretz in jail was a reasonable response to him not leaving the scene, but the abuse and brutality of what followed are just plain wrong. I've heard other thoughts in this thread about not trusting police or that all cops should be killed and I find those to be childish nonsense. For us to have a free and effective society, the rule of law is important and should apply equally to all. I know this isn't always the case but it is the goal. Wishing harm onto authority figures simply muddies the waters. What I want, and what I think all should want, is justice. The best outcome from Peretz's suffering would be reform and we should work towards that end.
  • janj 13y ago
    I'm Brandeis '01, I was a little surprised to see that link. Along with justice for this individual event what about something bigger. Right now there is no way to track these violent interactions officers have with the public. This police officer can do the same thing over and over and get away with it because the precinct will protect her. What if we had a way to keep track of these incidents making it easy for us to review the history of officers each time an event like this happens. If this officer had a fear of a violent interaction with the public going on her 'permanent public record' that might influence her behavior.
    • hmsimha 13y ago
      I love this idea. Also, the ability to track police abuse-of-power/brutality instances by location would be extremely useful.
      • droopybuns 13y ago
        This would make an outstanding .onion site.
• justizin 13y ago
  I had a similar experience, and honestly, I have been afraid to go to City Hall and speak to the elected officials I have personally met many times because I fear that my initial arrest for public intoxication while standing outside a bar which I planned to take a cab home from, smoking a cigarette, was retaliation for participating in protests, and that I will be retaliated against worst. I happened to be out celebrating a new job, so making me miss the last day of my old job was not much punishment, but I'd rather not go through that again. Fortunately I was out with the manager of the restaurant at my gym, who brought my bag to meet me the next morning, where I was able to take a shower before going to sign onboarding paperwork. I don't feel safe in San Francisco anymore.
• shurcooL 13y ago
  How does this happen? I'd love to know the motivations and perspectives of people involved. Did they make a mistake? Were they confused? If so, what was their line of thought? Did they try to intentionally cause harm to innocent people? If so, what was the reason. Also, is this a rare unusual occurrence, or does this happen 75%+ of the time you call 911? It just seems like a situation that should not have happened the way it was described (which may or may not be accurate).
  • jabr 13y ago
    The police overreacted. And it sounds like one cop in particular overreacted and then triggered a cascade of nonsense. This kind of thing is not rare, but it's not common, either. It happens nightly, but it's unlikely to happen to you. A good rule of thumb is to not be anywhere near a scene that has an inbound emergency response. There will be police, and if they have nothing else to do, they might harass you for fake reasons. But it all depends on where you are going. In most places, this is not a common problem. In certain areas of larger cities, the police can be a bit over zealous.
    • shurcooL 13y ago
      Thanks, that's helpful.
• janj 13y ago
  I posted this in another thread today but it's even more relevant here. We need a way to track when police officers have violent interactions with the public. We should be able to look up any officer and find their history of abuse of authority if it exists to make it easier to identify patterns. We can't trust these people with power if we can't hold them responsible. I would love to help work on this with someone.
  • sizzle 13y ago
    much respect if you pull this off, sort of like those mugshot sites that scrape public jail mugshot pics and extort people to remove them from their site-- except for cops and no way to remove the public info. I would donate for features like this.
  • doorty 13y ago
    Same here. This hits close to home for me--literally, my girlfriend lives right there, she broke her elbow on a bike, and we go to that bar sometimes. We could of very easily been in that same situation. I'm a developer and happy to help.
  • pmiller2 13y ago
    I'm interested in working on this as well. I've never been a victim of violence by the police, but I've had a couple interactions that I mishandled that didn't go well for me. My contact info is in my profile.
  • carlosrt 13y ago
    TheFunded for Peace Officers.
  • angelbar 13y ago
    Cant be wikipedia?
• rch 13y ago
  I think instead of building startups, some of us should start super PACs instead.
• rdl 13y ago
  It's kind of unfair to paint all the police as the same -- it varies both by officer (hard to predict) and by department (easy to predict). I try to deal strictly with California Highway Patrol and various Peninsula PDs. BART PD, SFPD (and SFFD), EPA PD are pretty horrible. I'd go out of my way to avoid contact with them, be wary, and use protection (a lawyer). OPD is bad too, but by virtue of being a rich white guy I'm not really at much risk from them (except through inaction). Oakland Fire is surprisingly good. I've called 911 for road obstructions, traffic accidents and the like hundreds of times. I've stopped for some fairly serious accidents before anyone else got there, called 911 and gave an accurate and detailed report , set up flares and blocked with my car (when victims were ejected from the car), first aid, etc. Never once have I had a problem. In the cases where someone was seriously injured and I had better medical training than the CHP who arrived, I waited until the paramedics and ambulance got there and talked to the paramedics before leaving. Taking this story at face value, these SFPD officers need to no longer be police officers.
  • vonklaus 13y ago
    Glossing over some of your assumptions, I find I agree whole-heartedly with your conclusion.
    • rdl 13y ago
      SFPD seems to have gotten a lot worse between 1999 and today. All the good officers I knew back in 1998-2000 were in their late 40s, so probably retired. I don't know what has happened to the department otherwise.
      • liotier 13y ago
        As the article's dialog mentioned, I suspect that they have been priced out of the area by real-estate value increase - the good ones may have found postings in locations more favourable to people employed in the salary range of a police officer.
        • seestheday 13y ago
• n8agrin 13y ago
  For those curious, this is the law which allows you to sue the police: 42 U.S.C. § 1983 "Every person who, under color of any statute, ordinance, regulation, custom, or usage, of any State or Territory or the District of Columbia, subjects, or causes to be subjected, any citizen of the United States or other person within the jurisdiction thereof to the deprivation of any rights, privileges, or immunities secured by the Constitution and laws, shall be liable to the party injured in an action at law, suit in equity, or other proper proceeding for redress, except that in any action brought against a judicial officer for an act or omission taken in such officer’s judicial capacity, injunctive relief shall not be granted unless a declaratory decree was violated or declaratory relief was unavailable. For the purposes of this section, any Act of Congress applicable exclusively to the District of Columbia shall be considered to be a statute of the District of Columbia." More here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enforcement_Act_of_1871_(third_act) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enforcement_Act_of_1871_(third_...
• x0054 13y ago
  Get a lawyer and sue. Make those fuckers pay, and make sure the fucks who arrested you are fired. But she for sure!
  • baddox 13y ago
    We all know what would happen. The government would side with the government.
    • x0054 13y ago
      You have to at east try. Most good lawyers will take this case on a contingency. Otherwise these cops will just get away with it yet again. Also, I wish this case would be picked up by the news. If anyone knows a reporter, send this to them. This needs to be public.
      • baddox 13y ago
        If you have the funds and time to try, by all means try. Most people don't.
  • interstitial 13y ago
    Make the People's Republic of San Fransisco pay? They need the funds to run Paradise.
  • csense 13y ago
    > Make those fuckers pay > make sure the fucks who arrested you are fired Defense attorney and former prosecutor Ken White, of the law blog Popehat, says of a case of much more serious police abuse which resulted in a $1.6 million settlement: "you can assume that...taxpayers, not the law enforcement officers who engaged in a conspiracy to commit torture and rape, will foot the bill...The only thing out of it that would surprise me is if any of the individual police officers or sheriff's deputies faced any genuine significant consequences arising from it." [1] http://www.popehat.com/2014/01/16/update-the-quantum-of-recovery-for-rape-and-torture-by-police-in-new-mexico-is-1-6-million/ http://www.popehat.com/2014/01/16/update-the-quantum-of-reco...
• dysoco 13y ago
  I'm in the completely opposite. Here the police is afraid of taking action, they won't chase a robber for fear of being injured or crash the car (yes, they pay for the police car repair). They are totally useless and some of them are even illiterate. Those are the "good" cops, we also have cops involved with the mafia, this guys are a worse problem than criminals, believe me. So, honestly, I'd rather live in the US. Just follow cop's orders and you'll be fine, at least they won't break into your house to steal your TV.
  • angersock 13y ago
    Just follow cop's orders and you'll be fine, Ahahahahahhahhaha no try again.
  • selimthegrim 13y ago
    Where in Argentina is this so I never go there on vacation?
• Fizzadar 13y ago
  “I mean, there are a lot of young cops on the street, trying to make a name for themselves.” - oh, so it's OK then. Absolutely disgusted by this story, particularly after reading another story about a different fucked up justice system in America (https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7229930 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7229930). I did and somewhat still want to live in America for a year+, but seeing this shit daily puts me right off. So glad to be European right now.
  • mahyarm 13y ago
    Europe has similar stories of being horrible in spots too, look at french jails for example: http://www.newsweek.com/french-prisons-are-becoming-embarrassment-87695 http://www.newsweek.com/french-prisons-are-becoming-embarras...
    • Fizzadar 13y ago
      Thanks for the link, really interesting/enlightening read. I would hope, at least, that Europe's police officers are on the whole less pointlessly violent (though, as Peretz points out the majority of SF police probably don't act as such).
      • mahyarm 13y ago
        I've heard of similar bad behavior from spanish and french police forces in general. I wouldn't be surprised you see it in almost all of the southern european countries. When you start getting into germanic/english/scandinavian countries you start hearing the opposite, but even then you hear of controversial behavior during big political protests in england & canada. I'm not going into the eastern european countries since they are still developing nations for the most part. Japan for another example has scary high conviction rates, even though it's a very safe country where police will probably never harass you. Once a prosecutor there goes ahead with a trial, your pretty much guaranteed to be going to jail. I'm not trying to be morally relativistic here and saying your screwed everywhere, but law enforcement systems show this systemic flaw in their organizations in general. How much they control the bad behaviors is up to the culture and design of the incentives. The better designed ones will have a much better probability of not screwing you over. But most people, including unexposed Americans, don't realize the unjust nastiness of law enforcement gone bad and think police are a good thing in developed nations, just like you do in europe.
• im3w1l 13y ago
  >Consider wearing a video camera at all times. It has been shown that when police wear cameras and are aware of being filmed, it moderates their behavior. >As self reports of the need to use force decrease, so do complaints. What is a good wearable camera that wont broadcast all I do to the alphabet soup?
• angersock 13y ago
  Relevant bit from the article: Don’t call 911. Obviously, there are exceptions, but the sad lesson is, there are fewer than you’d think. Call Lyft to take you to the hospital. (Worked well when I broke my elbow.) Take such incidents to trial, where justice isn’t veiled by the POBAR. It’s not a matter of litigious vindictiveness. It’s just the only available way. The SF Office of Citizen Complaints is not a valid alternative. Consider wearing a video camera at all times. It has been shown that when police wear cameras and are aware of being filmed, it moderates their behavior. As self reports of the need to use force decrease, so do complaints. Folks, that right there is a breakdown of the social contract and the fabric of our fucking society. These incidents (finally, one that happens to the wrong people, right?) are a sign that something is seriously fucking broken. Stop working on ads and organic food sourcing and microfunding and start fixing the fucking system. Vote. Call. Protest. Write articles like this when your friends are abused. Praise politicians that are doing the right thing.
• snitko 13y ago
  I feel very sorry for the OP. Unfortunately, this is what happens when you're not a customer of the organization that protects you. Police officers will not be paid less if they mistreat the people they're supposed to protect. To get them to justice, as was mentioned in another comment, would cost tons of money and time and there's no guarantee of any kind of result. They know it. The only places where police is actually humane and does mostly good are Scandinavian countries. My explanation of that phenomenon is that those countries are small (both in territory and number of citizens) and are, indeed, operate like small companies. Thus it's relatively easy to keep them accountable. Of course, many other small countries have very corrupt police, so this can only account for a part of the explanation. My opinion is that where there is no market mechanism to effectively communicate customer satisfaction, you will see abuse. People see it again and again, yet they keep paying taxes to sponsor this shit, because they are being told there will be anarchy or the poor wouldn't have the money to hire a private police protection. I wonder if the poor would actually be better off without police "protection" at all. After all, they are mostly after people who conduct victimless crimes and are never there when a woman is getting raped or someone's being mugged. That's not protection, that's extortion.
  • csense 13y ago
    > Scandinavian countries. My explanation of that phenomenon is that those countries are small (both in territory and number of citizens) Add to that: - Socialist governments that redistribute wealth so there isn't as much of a socioeconomic class gap (specifically mentioned by the cops in this article as an explanation for their harassment) - Racially and culturally homogenous (especially compared to USA) I'm not saying these traits' effects are solely positive, or that those countries are inherently better for these reasons, or that these are directions the USA ought to go. I'm merely pointing out that it seems many of the US's problems are due to class/racial tensions that don't exist in other countries with different histories.
  • fuckpig 13y ago
    > My opinion is that where there is no market mechanism to effectively communicate customer satisfaction, you will see abuse. That's a great criticism of government in general.
• gunControl 13y ago
  "Consider wearing a video camera at all times." I'd rather carry a gun, thanks. Cameras only work against people who care about their reputations. Guns work against everything else.
• maratd 13y ago
  When a cop gives you instructions to leave, you leave. Not because the cop is right, but because this shit happens. And if you're naive enough to think that this shit won't happen to you, try not complying with a cop's instructions. Doesn't matter where in the US you happen to be. It's that simple. Look, here's a simple rule. In every interaction with the police, ask if you can leave. If you can, count your lucky stars and leave. If you can't leave, determine if you can get out of the interaction with a ticket or a summons. If you can, work toward that outcome. Regardless, don't tell them your life story. Keep it brief and if they start asking about things that relate to you, exercise your constitutional right to shut up. Cops are not your friends. Their job is to enforce order. Not to be your best bud.
  • soup10 13y ago
    Seriously lol. Dealing with authorities 101: 1. Be respectful at all times 2. When an authority tells you to do something, do it. Unless you have a really good reason not to. In which case, see 1, and communicate your concern or question. 3. Don't let them push you around/power trip, but stick to 1 4. If shit goes down, don't panic! you'll only make things worse. Accept that your circumstances are temporarily out of your control, be patient and non-confrontational. The world is not made of rainbows and flowers, there are plenty of self-important people with some kind of authority over you. Generally speaking though, unless you have to constantly interact with them, like a boss, they don't matter. The less interaction and thought you give them, the sooner you can get away from them and on with your life.
  • x0054 13y ago
    Or as one Chicago cop famously pointed out: "to preserve disorder."
    • auntienomen 13y ago
      That was the city's mayor.
  • discardorama 13y ago
    "In every interaction with the police, ask if you can leave. If you can, count your lucky stars and leave. " "count your lucky stars" is not what I'm paying my taxes for.
• vanattab 13y ago
  >"I painstakingly retrieved all possible documentation, including: the police report, transcript of radio chatter, audio of my 911 call, security footage from Radius restaurant" So post it! The only thing he linked to is the audio of the 911 call. Why not post the other evidence. I have a feeling there is more to the story. While I am sure there are many cops on "power trips" most cops I have meet (including the ones that arrested me) have been pretty decent people.
• doorty 13y ago
  My girlfriend lives right there. We go to that bar sometimes. She recently broke her elbow on a bike accident. We would of called 911 in the same situation. This could of easily been me and her. Wow. What can I do!?
  • talon88 13y ago
    You call the cops/ambulance. This one experience, even if 100% true, is not necessarily indicative of the entire system.
    • RamiK 13y ago
      Why should the opposite be any truer? Without any evidence to prove otherwise, calling the cops is equally wrong.
    • buzaga41 13y ago
      ...Right
• AjithAntony 13y ago
  Why is the lead photo of a delicate blonde white woman, when the story is about a grizzled bearded man who could pass for some various ethnicities? That totally changes that context. The story is much less sensational than if it was the pictured woman.
• lurchpop 13y ago
  Wouldn't it be great if there was a 911 equivalent that just called a fucking ambulance or a fire truck?
• caitp 13y ago
  Somehow, with stories like these being so common in the news, I just don't think I want to live in that country. Apart from warmer weather, I'm not sure there's anything worth moving for.
• kimonos 13y ago
  So sad to read stories like this.. I empathize with you..
• greatsuccess 13y ago
  Never underestimate mob mentality. When one officer apologizes for another, its simply a case of good cop bad cop and that officer excusing themselves for the same behavior on a different day. This is the problem with creating an underclass of criminals in the first place, it excuses vast overreach in the execution of even the simplest tasks of law enforcement, to intimidate and exert power over another, and to simply abuse.
• thatthatis 13y ago
  You need to watch this: http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=6wXkI4t7nuc http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=6wXkI4t7nuc Once you're in custody you're in a system built to treat psychopaths and killers. The system isn't built to recognize your unique and brilliant capabilities. It's there to treat the lowest common denominator. Reduce your surface area. Recognize that you are dealing with a system built to function by 1700s timescales. This guy admits he screamed over and over that he wanted to see a doctor. He not only made himself a problem to be dealt with, he acted in such a way that they could defensibly put him in the psych ward. "he was screaming the same phrase over and over." Reduce your surface area and remember the system is built to deliver eventual justice as often as possible, not immediate justice in your case.
• reddog 13y ago
  I worked my way through school as a police dispatcher. I remember the officers had a saying about otherwise innocent people who they took to jail after they gave the officers a hard time: "You may beat the rap, but you won't beat the ride."
• Beasting247 13y ago
  The real problem with all these stories is that it's as if the police are above the law and not held accountable for abusing it. They should all be thrown in jail and have their badges removed. Nothing sickens me more than people who abuse their authority over innocent people (eg. child molesters. yes, I compared corrupt policemen to child molesters)
• danbmil99 13y ago
  I've had friends who got into this sort of situation. Being dragged into the criminal justice system is a real eye-opener. Without downplaying the distress one might feel in this situation, it's worth pointing out that here in the US, assuming you have resources (meaning, money and/or friends/relatives who will advocate for you), you almost always can get out of the clutches of this Kafka-esque nightmare within at most 72 hours. If you lack those resources, your life can become fucked pretty hard pretty fast. And it goes without saying that there are countries where instead of 3 days, you can spend weeks, months, or years in the grip of a system every bit as evil and frightening as a cheap horror flick. In fact, we (US govt) have some people like that languishing down in Cuba right now.
  • mattm 13y ago
    In Japan, I believe the police can hold you for up to three weeks without charge. AMA from someone who was held in Japan - http://www.reddit.com/r/japan/comments/1t09ud/did_time_in_a_japanese_jail_ama/ http://www.reddit.com/r/japan/comments/1t09ud/did_time_in_a_...
• atlotl 13y ago
  If a cop asks you what you do and you say 'I work at an early stage startup' instead of 'I'm a computer programmer', you have lost all perspective.
• ladlestein 13y ago
  Jesus Christ, will you look at the mountains of bullshit social commentary here. Even you the author does it, with your apologies for them because they're schnooks who resent tech workers. I can't be profane enough here.
• cgag 13y ago
  So what do we do? Tons of us live here, we should be doing something. Squad up and protest? There has to be a decent number of us who have flexible ours, how about we team up and manually surveil officer Kaur for a week? Is there someone would should be calling to complain to that will hurt this persons career? I don't know what to do, but this city is tiny and there are a lot of us, surely we can have some effect. My email and website w/ pgp key are in my profile, email me if you're interested in trying something.
  • adventured 13y ago
    The primary reason this isn't happening, is an intense fear of the police state and what it can (and often will) do to any given individual person either just out of typical abuse or intentional malice. Seattle had / has such a vile police force it had to be put under Federal control.
• sprslf 13y ago
  Did anybody read the links about the guy that is suing the same cops? http://www.plainsite.org/dockets/index.html?id=2989730 http://www.plainsite.org/dockets/index.html?id=2989730 Poor guy got really messed up, has huge medical bills, and obviously filed the lawsuit himself because he has no money and can't spell. Feel way worse for that guy than the OP. If something positive can come out of this story, maybe that guy can find some help from people here.
  • atlotl 13y ago
    Being named 'James Holmes' must be really annoying! ( google search for it... go ahead )
• krosaen 13y ago
  Don't we already have reddit to commiserate about injustice? Honest question - just not sure why this is a good fit for hacker news.
• neumann 13y ago
  I've made a few 911 calls, but the last one was pretty surreal. My partner and I were walking past a high rise where people go to score and in front of us on the pavement we saw a man and a woman trying to wake up someone who seemed on the verge of OD. He wasn't responding, the two were frantic, and everybody was watching from the other side of the road. She was screaming at him and us, saying he is ODed, and get an ambulance, so I called emergency, asked for ambos, didn't give my name, and described that a guy was unconscious and needed medical help. 20secs later we heard the sirens, and we saw the cops screaming down the road in the distance, no ambulance in sight. The man started dragging the woman away, and the previously comatose looking man started re-animating in front of us, trying to get up with great difficulty. With stupendous effort he rose to his feet and then through sheer willpower got his bearings and tried walking on the sidewalk. All together 3 cop cars screeched into the intersection, I put my phone on silent, and like the Truman Show every pedestrian did their bit and started ambling and chatting as if nothing had happened. My partner and I ambled on while my phone rang silently in my pocket and the previously ODed looking guy should have got an OSCAR as he walked (slightly stiffly) in a straight line past the cops. The 6 cops looked around the intersection, observing people and running around looking behind walls for a minute and then sped off. No ambos in sight.
  • mitochondrion 13y ago
    What the fuck. Where do you live?
    • neumann 13y ago
      Melbourne/Australia
  • omarchowdhury 13y ago
    Intense. Haha.
• herbig 13y ago
  Back in November, I was arrested in Brooklyn for running a red light on my bike while on my way to work in Manhattan. Normally you're given a ticket and let go, but in this instance, the officers took issue with the fact that I was not carrying ID. Both officers told me that I "could be arrested for not having ID." For clarification, I asked if it was a city, state, or national law, and the officers adamantly maintained that it was a state law. I, stupidly, thought to educate them on this misconception, and one officer in particular decided to bring me in because she "knows the laws and doesn't need to be told how to do [her] job." I was brought into the local precinct (Brooklyn's 88th). When I arrived, both officers denied saying I was required to carry ID when I asked the captain about the law. Of course the captain confirmed that I was not required to carry ID, but at that point it didn't really matter anyway. The charge was failure to obey a traffic signal. I was held in solitary confinement for 10 hours. During that time, the female arresting officer would periodically come by to taunt me, and tell me that I shouldn't have questioned her, and then threw a huge tantrum when I requested not to be touched by her for fingerprinting. They sent another officer in to do it, but for a moment, I honestly thought was going to beat the shit out of me. The other arresting officer, a guy of Filipino descent, noticed my Filipino flag belt buckle when they were taking my belt (so I couldn't hang myself, apparently). We talked about the country a bit (I was a volunteer there for 2 years) and to his credit he apologized to me, admitted that he was wrong about the law, but said that there wasn't anything he could do now that I was in there because the other officer wanted to make an example of me. I was, curiously, allowed to keep my shoelaces. The other officers that would walk by my urine soaked cell and ask why I was there did not believe at first that I had been arrested for running a red light. When I mentioned who the arresting officer was though, they all gave a knowing sigh. One told me that she was not at all respected there, that she had a huge temper, and that I should not have crossed her. One officer went across the street and bought me a slice of pizza, which was nice. Around 8pm, I was personally escorted by two other officers to a courthouse in downtown Brooklyn, where I was retina scanned and placed in a holding cell with around 10 other criminals. Charges ranged from domestic abuse to armed robbery. One man was on the floor going through drug withdrawals. Everyone scoffed at the idea that I was there because of a traffic violation, and likely assumed I was making that up. I talked to my escorting officers a bit and they also confirmed that my arresting officer was a bit of a joke at the precinct, and that I had been unlucky. While at the courthouse jail cell, the officer that was watching everyone at one point began banging on the cell bars with his hands and yelling at the inmates, calling them niggers and going on about how they're all in there because they never had any fathers growing up. Some of the inmates laughed, but others were visibly scared. When that calmed down and another officer came by to drop off someone else, I told him what had happened and his only response was "so?" I was offered the chance to make a phone call, but the only number I even have memorized anymore is my mother's, and despite knowing that my friends were probably scared to death looking for me, I wasn't at the point of calling her. She still does not know that any of this ever happened. I was then given a chance to speak to my public defender through plated glass. That took about 20 seconds. She basically told me this whole thing was ridiculous, that I had likely pissed off an officer (I hadn't told her anything) and that we were going to ask the judge to dismiss the charge and that the judge would do so. At 11pm I went before the judge for about 5 seconds and the charges were dismissed and I was allowed to go home. Unfortunately, I first had to walk back to the precinct to get my bike, keys, phone, etc. Luckily it wasn't too cold. I had thought that I was handling things fairly well, but when I arrived at the precinct and was faced with the notion of going back in there, even as a free person, I began vomiting in the garbage can beside the steps leading in. Dehydration and stress were probably the causes, and for a moment I feared being seen, in case they would arrest me again right there for something or other. My phone was dead, so I couldn't get ahold of anyone until I got home, but I was too tired and afraid to get back on my bike, so I walked back to my apartment. When I finally did get back on the grid, I had found that my brother, girlfriend, and work colleagues had all been desperately looking for me when I hadn't shown up to work, and had been calling hospitals and police stations. They eventually did get a confirmation from the 88th precinct that I was there, which of course no one relayed to me. My work was prepared to send their lawyer down, but my brother talked them out of it, thinking that it would likely make things worse for me inside (he was probably right, but go work). I felt even worse for putting them through such an experience. All told, I was in custody from around 10am to 11pm and I've learned a few things on the inside. Knowing your rights doesn't matter. There are no repercussions to any officer for anything they say or do. If they want to make your life hell, they can and will. Carrying ID may not be required by law, but it will save you a lot of hassle and explaining if you ever do have a run in with the law. You can either exercise your right not to carry ID, but you put yourself in danger of the wrath of an ignorant police force (I still don't carry it). Also, don't run red lights on your bike.
• gojomo 13y ago
  YC (S14): "Yelp for Police Officers"
• rajacombinator 13y ago
  Welcome to the militarized police state, criminal.
• grifpete 13y ago
  Disgusting.
• methodover 13y ago
  I had a similar initial situation -- I was in North Oakland, in the Rockridge area, when I observed a traffic accident. I safely parked, exited my vehicle and rendered aid to the two injured individuals involved in the accident. Police and Fire were called. I hung around for more than an forty-five minutes. Oakland PD was nothing but kind and understanding. They did not ask me to leave. They took my story, and the story of other witnesses. They made sure everyone was okay. They helped direct traffic. They were fine officers. Is Oakland PD better than San Francisco PD? I've considered moving from Oakland to SF -- but if the police department is so terrible that most people recommend never calling the police, then I might want to stay away for that reason alone.
• hackaflocka 13y ago
  Why did she selectively describe the race and skin color of only some of the police-people? I'd like to know the race and skin color of all of them.
  • fuckpig 13y ago
    There's a "Paramut Kaur" listed here: http://sfpoa.org/journal_archives/POAJournal_Aug2012.pdf http://sfpoa.org/journal_archives/POAJournal_Aug2012.pdf
  • chippy 13y ago
    >she OP is a he.
• JshWright 13y ago
  Why were the cops in charge of this scene at all? Around here the ranking medical provider would have been in charge, and the cops wouldn't have gotten involved unless they were asked to by EMS. As a paramedic, I would be seriously pissed if a cop dragged a helpful bystander away from my patient (for all I know they have useful information that I need to know).
  • rapala 13y ago
    This was my first reaction as well. If a call comes in of a bicycling accident, why would the 911 dispatcher send a fire truck and multiple police squads to the scene?
    • rynes 13y ago
      In my city they always send both an ambulance and a fire truck when an ambulance is requested. Perhaps they think that the caller may have forgot something and they could always use the extra help.
• FD3SA 13y ago
  This is a perfect example of the disconnect between "hackers" and the real world. I consider myself part of the HN community because I hope for a society shaped by its ideals, but the real world is so far removed that time spent here becomes more of a therapeutic escape than anything else. I strongly recommend people study history, and understand human nature at both scientific and societal levels. There is too much to discuss here, but in brief: Homo-sapiens, much like other primates, create status hierarchies while competing for resources and mates. Status is directly proportional to the ability to exercise power. All of human history has been a result of this inter and intra-hierachy competition. In a police state such as the modern US, the lowest police officer has an unimaginably higher potential to exercise power than any median income citizen. As such, that power is often exercised. As the author realized, you have no ability to fight back in a police state. You can sue, but good luck getting results. So the real question is, why do you think your startup is worth pursuing given the situation you're in? Do you really think "bringing transparency to the food industry", or the thousands of other startups that go through YC, are even relevant given the reality of the US police state? This has been my biggest criticism of "Hacker" culture. Closing your eyes and pretending you live in Galt's Gluch is not going to make it a reality. Wake up and look at the world around you and realize that just because you haven't been crushed by the state yet, doesn't mean it's never going to happen. Once you realize that, your priorities will hopefully shift in a more reasonable direction. Nobody, and I mean nobody, is safe from totalitarian police states. This is a fact history has shown repeatedly. Act accordingly. P.S. Just saw that immediately race was brought up. As a tip to anyone who wants to make a difference, people in power will divide you into as many groups as you let them in order to subjugate you. When the system is in place, it doesn't matter what ethnicity you belong to. If you piss off the wrong person, you're finished. The trick is to unify to disassemble the monstrosity, not balkanize into smaller and ever more powerless units based on: race, income, sex, height, attractiveness, beliefs, democrat/republican, pro-life/pro-choice, LBGT-hetero, pro-KONY/anti-KONY, ... Please, understand power. Understand how little you have, and how to make best use of it to attain your goals. Balkanize at your own peril.
  • chilldream 13y ago
    > P.S. Just saw that immediately race was brought up. As a tip to anyone who wants to make a difference, people in power will divide you into as many groups as you let them in order to subjugate you. You can simultaneously recognize that the system is biased against certain races while also avoiding infighting based upon race. It's kind of ironic that you tell people to pay more attention to reality and then essentially tell people to pretend racism doesn't exist in one of the most racist segments of US society.
• discardorama 13y ago
  Those of you who are still in denial and think that this person did something wrong, should read up about the Amelie leMoulac case. TL;DR: woman on a bike gets run over by a truck. SFPD claims they couldn't find any surveillance video, blames the cyclist and lets the trucker go. A couple of days later, an SFBC (SF bike coalition) person decides to go around and ask the nearby merchants; and finds a shop with surveillance video that shows trucker was at fault. Note also how the SFPD comes by and harasses the protestors, and puts other bicyclists at risk by blocking the bike lane: http://sf.streetsblog.org/2013/08/21/at-safe-streets-rally-sfpd-blocks-bike-lane-to-make-point-of-victim-blaming/ http://sf.streetsblog.org/2013/08/21/at-safe-streets-rally-s... http://sf.streetsblog.org/2013/08/23/sfbc-finds-what-sfpd-didnt-video-of-crash-that-killed-amelie-le-moullac/ http://sf.streetsblog.org/2013/08/23/sfbc-finds-what-sfpd-di...
• meritt 13y ago
  Don't engage police in any circumstance except when your life is absolutely in danger. It's simply not worth the risk.
• suprgeek 13y ago
  This comes from personal experience in the USA. Never talk to/Interact with cops unless asked directly. Never call 911 unless there is a threat to life, risk of serious imminent injury to you or to family. If you have to do it for a bystander, call 911 ANON & LEAVE. The chances of tracking you down if you are truly uninvolved are remote - OTOH if you hang around and expect a pat on the back.... The cops are generally working under totally different incentives than your well-being. A surprisingly large number are also Bullies and Thugs on a power trip. The best outcome is that you are left alone - the worst is ...well you can imagine many, many horrible things including loss of life.
• MansaMusa 13y ago
  Welcome to the everyday life of a black man in America. Events like and far worse this occur approx. three to four times a minute. Check out http://newjimcrow.com/ http://newjimcrow.com/ by Michelle Alexander.
• botolo 13y ago
  When this kind of things happen, you should call a lawyer right away. When you are not free to leave, you are under arrest. When you are under arrest, officers should read your Miranda rights. Even if they don't read them, you have the right to counsel.
• fuckpig 13y ago
  Government is a parasite that protects its own interests. It defends itself against you, and to do that, must neutralize anyone who does not do exactly what it wants. The solution is to overthrow government and replace it with organic power structures. Most people are afraid to do this however. It insults their sense of autonomy and uniqueness. Thus for the sake of pretense, we continue with this idiocy.
  • mwfunk 13y ago
    "Organic power structures"
• deleted 13y ago
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• aperrien 13y ago
  And this is why all police officers should be wearing badge-cams with the video feed removed from their (and the department's) control.
• joyeuse6701 13y ago
  So... I know one of the original injured (Rebecca), boy was I shocked to see the blog + this on HN. wow, everything about this is surreal.
• dllthomas 13y ago
  If this in fact went down exactly as described, the officers who initiated use of force need to not be officers. I caution against undue private agitation against the officers named, though, because that's a big "if" - I don't expect the story was deliberately colored by the narrator (although we can't completely ignore the possibility) but the way humans work it always gets colored somewhat and we don't know what things seemed like from the officers' POV. I do hope the incident is taken seriously - this tendency of the police to make themselves enemies of even the law abiding does nothing for our safety.
• kpennell 13y ago
  On laws regarding video taping the police: http://gizmodo.com/5900680/7-rules-for-recording-police http://gizmodo.com/5900680/7-rules-for-recording-police
• ChuckFrank 13y ago
  I know this is probably going to get buried, but I believe that this is part of a larger scam. I believe that the Police receive kick backs from the bail bonds men, in the form of institutional charitable contributions at the very least, if not outright cash kick backs. With this in mind, the police are inclined to make what they call 'Money Arrests', which are essentially an arrest to scare people into getting bailed out, since that the money paid to bail bonds men is non refundable even if the charges are dismissed. I have no evidence of this money trail. But based upon my personal experience, and the language that I've heard used during an arrest, such as the 'Oh you must be one of those tech billionaires', I believe that this is the case.
  • csense 13y ago
    Interesting. I commented earlier in the thread that they maybe the police were hinting they wanted a bribe -- this would have a similar outcome but maybe more legal / less traceable.
• mcoliver 13y ago
  you were not arrested. you were detained. it's called the patriot act. they can detain you for 72 hours without charge and release you without any repercussions. as fucked up as it is, their actions were legal. as for stripping you naked, you might have a good shot at a successful lawsuit there.
• deleted 13y ago
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• balls187 13y ago
  Wow. At the point where the person was bluntly told to leave immediately, why did they not?
  • jabr 13y ago
    He wasn't told bluntly. They said they no longer needed him. He said he would like to stay, and then he was tackled, cuffed, and sent off for a bit of solitary.
• ddd1600 13y ago
  Something tells me he's clearly not in the wrong but must have acted VERY eccentrically that night in a way he's not disclosing in post
• spiritplumber 13y ago
  I'd still like to know what the proper procedure is after a police officer declares their intention to handcuff you, and you end up handcuffing them instead. I mean, is he under arrest then? Should I take him home and keep him in the spare bedroom for a couple of days? Serious question, I have seen it happen. Personally as far as hostile encounters with polices go I'm batting 2/1/1 which is not really anything to brag about, and none are fun stories. Anyway, if you end up in an emergency situation, and the cops do show up, offer help in a clear slow voice and then follow instructions. The worst that ever happened was being asked to give a hand with moving some heavy branches, which is what I was doing when they showed up anyway.
• tn13 13y ago
  I wonder if there is any kind of "I was fucked by government insurance". For example we can pay say a $100 per month just in case government decides to create trouble like this for us and we will get an attorney paid for by the insurance company.
• trekforever 13y ago
  I think you should contact ACLU and work with them to sue the officers/department. obviously your rights were violated (they didn't even read the Miranda warning)
• blueskin_ 13y ago
  ...and this is another reason (other than bystander effect) why people ignore emergencies that don't concern them - not wanting to get caught up or have something like this happen.
• veganarchocap 13y ago
  Everyone needs to read this, no given person, our group of persons should ever have the power to detain, abuse and incarcerate like this. This is sickening.
• siculars 13y ago
  "Consider wearing a video camera at all times. It has been shown that when police wear cameras and are aware of being filmed, it moderates their behavior. As self reports of the need to use force decrease, so do complaints." This. I'm certain that this is our collective future where every interaction is recorded by civilians and law enforcement alike. The jury is still out as to whether or not this is a good thing in the long run.
• cinitriqs 13y ago
  Couple of words: This is only the tip of the ice-berg n if us, the people, keep acting like sheep and never question "authority (whatever that word means anyway), they will have their way with a very nice fascist-like nanny/police state... Nothing to see here people, just abuse of power which we will call "normal procedure". Nothing to see here, carry on with your dreadful lives...
• sergj 13y ago
  I feel sick reading stories like this. Yesterday I read about the guy that made a stupid facebook comment and is now facing 10 years in prison. He will probably win and walk away a free man, but still he had to spend 2 months in prison. Reading these stories or stories about the TSA I really do not want to visit the USA in the near future.
• anentropic 13y ago
  USA is fucked
• xacaxulu 13y ago
  I make it a point to avoid all interactions with LEOs. They are new militarized, angry and highly uneducated underclass and they want to take it out on you. I don't even drive any more just to avoid interactions. It's much harder to be arrested in a Lyft/Uber than in your own vehicle and you don't risk them 'finding' anything in your vehicle. Never call the police, never help the police, never talk to the police.
• khafra 13y ago
  I recently heard the suggestion that police should carry an equivalent of doctors' malpractice insurance; so the same taxpayers that they abuse aren't the ones who ultimately pay to compensate for their abuses. Sounded like a good idea, especially if insurance companies can identify the officers most at risk of doing legally actionable things while on duty.
  • maxerickson 13y ago
    When insurance is priced correctly, the premiums will roughly match the payouts. The taxpayers will still be paying the premiums. It would introduce some sort of independent oversight, but it seems like a roundabout way of doing it.
    • khafra 13y ago
      > The taxpayers will still be paying the premiums. If the police pay their own premiums directly, we'll have to raise their salaries; so the taxpayers will still be paying them. But, there will be an independent entity with a financial interest in identifying officers likely to commit crimes and abuses; instead of a subdepartment of the police itself with conflicted interests. Ideally, abusive police officers will not be able to afford to be police officers.
• snsr 13y ago
  https://richardbrenneman.wordpress.com/2011/04/20/criminal-law-101-never-ever-talk-to-the-police/ https://richardbrenneman.wordpress.com/2011/04/20/criminal-l...
• Fuxy 13y ago
  America The land of the free... if you're a cop and careful to never get caught on camera or recorder in any way shape or form. But what do you expect when you send a swat team for every arrest. Even the cops start to think that their allows to use as much force as they like.
• Yetanfou 13y ago
  In contrast to this example of abuse of power I'd like to link to an article in a Swedish tabloid which was published today: http://www.expressen.se/nyheter/jan-fick-se-polisens-spaning--i-sin-mobil/ http://www.expressen.se/nyheter/jan-fick-se-polisens-spaning... In short it tells the story of s man suddenly receiving police-related messages in a chat program which clearly were not intended for him. As it turned out, a police office had mistakenly added his phone number to the distribution list. This is how the police officer reacted when confronted with this mistake: '– Oj, oj, oj...vad ska jag säga. Det är naturligtvis djupt olyckligt att de här uppgifterna kommit ut den här vägen. Jag beklagar det verkligen. Det var jag som skrev ett felaktigt mobilnummer och får ta på mig ansvaret för det (...).' Translated to English: '- Oh, oh, oh... what shall I say. It is of course very unfortunate that these data became public this way. I'm truly sorry. It was me who entered a wrong telephone number and I'll have to take responsibility for this' While it is in my opinion less than commendable for the police to use this specific chat program (which is known to be as leaky as a rusty bucket) and rather careless to enter a phone number without checking whether the messages actually reach the intended recipient, this police officer does not try to hide his involvement. He takes responsibility for his fault.
• skywhopper 13y ago
  Somehow I'm reminded of Bonfire of the Vanities.
• deleted 13y ago
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• legedemon 13y ago
  I am tired and bored of reading these rants on HN. Why don't Americans just give themselves a spring?
• aet 13y ago
  "She turned to me and abruptly said that I was not needed as a witness and should leave immediately." -- Police ask you to leave the scene. You don't. You wind up in jail. I've read a lot of these "brutality" stories. The one common ingredient: not doing what the cop says. Police are just trying to do their jobs. If they ask you to leave, just leave. The less gawkers and people meandering around the easier it is for them to do their job. Generally speaking, I'd say that after an accident in which an officer has asked you to move along that it is not a good time to "exercise your rights." Sure you probably have the "right" to stick around and get in the way, but why?
• logfromblammo 13y ago
  They say the only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing. Well, that's wrong. For evil to triumph, all the good men must be gone, because a good man won't do nothing when faced with evil. Whenever a bad cop does a bad thing, and no one steps in to stop it, there are no good cops left. Whenever the thin blue line is deployed to protect one of their own, it damns the entire company. Qui custodiet custodes, indeed. Andy Griffith retired long ago, and Barney Fife rose to power. Now there's no one responsible left to tell him when he can and cannot put his bullet in.
• puppetmaster3 13y ago
  Solution is easy. No guns for police like UK. But citizens should have a gun. It sounds simple but think, ex: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stanford_prison_experiment http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stanford_prison_experiment The issue is if they have more power than you, it auto equals abuse.
• ojbyrne 13y ago
  What is especially infuriating about “Ah, you’re one of those billionaire wannabees in this neighborhood.” is the fact that SF police have very high salaries, possibly higher than the poster: "Due to the high cost of living in the Bay Area, SFPD officers starting salary is the highest in the country at $88,842 to $114,164." (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/San_Francisco_Police_Department#Controversies https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/San_Francisco_Police_Departmen...)
• gopi 13y ago
  Maybe i am wrong, but is there a chance that this types of incidence happens more with urban cops than suburban?
• rapala 13y ago
  Just a couple of days ago I was having a conversation with my friends about police brutality in the USA. We dug up some articles from US news papers with searches like "police shot" and "shooting". In most cases it seemed right that the police used force. In most cases the amount of force was way too much. The latest case of a police using a firearm here in Finland was when a man was walking in a populated pedestrian way carrying a knife and a pistol. He didn't comply with orders to lay down his weapons and was shot once, in the leg. One of the first questions in media was whether an electroshock weapon could have been used in stead. The use of a firearm in a populated area was also questioned. These sort of questions didn't seem to be asked in the articles from USA. The OP's case was from the other end of the spectrum. He may have had the smell of beer in his breath and didn't comply with the order to leave the scene. The police tackled him done and handcuffed him. One explanation given is that the officer was on a power trip. But it also seems that the police was having difficulties in adjusting their use of force. They dragged away a man who was supporting an injured person. They tackled OP for not complying with an order to leave. After reading those news articles my friends and I started think about the training that police officer receive in the USA. How much time is used to teach giving orders? How much time for hand-to-hand combat and controlling a person with or without a weapon? How much time is spent in the firing range?
• socrates1998 13y ago
  Cops generally do not care about your constitutional rights. They care about their authority. Unfortunately, this is a tough lesson to learn. Most minorities in the US know learn this at a very young age. The irony is that the police are losing the respect of decent people every day when they pull this behavior. They are making their jobs more difficult by separately themselves from the public. The police treat neighborhoods like war zones. Us vs. Them.
• hnisnotreddit 13y ago
  Just goes to show you, if a cop finds a reason to arrest you, you an be detained for up to 72 hours without charges being laid upon you. This story is what a typical arrest feels like in 2014. All the stuff you see on movies? forget it. it doesn't apply anymore.