29 ms·

Y Combinator is funding the future of spam in Windows

1065 points by longzheng 14y ago

huhtenberg 14y ago
It'd be nice to hear what pg thinks of this, though he's probably not in position to comment on this publicly.
brudgers 14y ago
The past public disparagement of Microsoft's business model and praise of FOSS and Apple, makes fodder for easy conspiracy theories. Rather than a conspiracy, however, I suspect it is more likely just a case where YC doesn't give a fuck about further degrading the Windows ecosystem. Next time someone complains here on HN about Microsoft's malfeasance in locking down Windows RT, remind them that they have enterprise customers who don't want to deal with shit like this.
nonamegiven 14y ago
Although I was put off initially, I think I wouldn't mind a straight ad that I see once in an installer. But leaving spoor behind in the form of toolbars is beyond the pale. Toolbars? Really?
mikecane 14y ago
If you don't understand that the thing that is more important than money is trust, then you shouldn't be in business at all. The minute you screw someone, you've lost them as a customer forever and you've ruined your own reputation.
rrrrtttt 14y ago
There's a public company in Israel called Babylon whose business model is giving away a popular translator software in exchange for installing spyware. They're huge and are planning an American IPO this year. Some people here are saying that it's all a big stack of cards and investors are going to lose all their money, but the analysts are actually saying that it's a valid business model and the company is underpriced. I'm wondering who is right... How is this business model of spying on your users different from Google's or Facebook's?
- jordan0day 14y ago
  Active vs. passive, perhaps (although admittedly that distinction has shrunken substantially). That is, "in the good old days", facebook or google really only tracked what you did, on facebook or google, while crapware could track everything you did on the computer. Now, of course, as more and more of our lives are based around our browsers, and google and facebook track more of what you do anywhere on the web, not just on their sites, so I suppose it's not that different.
- SyneRyder 14y ago
  Would that be the same Babylon translation software that patio11 found advertising on the InstallMonetizer network? See his comment (and screenshot of the installer's default options) here: http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5060399 http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5060399
- hncommenter13 14y ago
  Perion (Nasdaq:PERI) has the same model, also from Israel. There's a whole crop of Israeli companies that have similar businesses, in fact.
edandersen 14y ago
PG: care to comment? Were you involved in this investment decision?
- rdl 14y ago
  One thing to keep in mind is that YC funds groups. If a team is funded to do one thing, then pivots to doing something else later, it's not like YC is going to de-fund you. (I don't know anything about this specific company)
  - dasil003 14y ago
    Not today, but this could be terrible for PR for YC over the medium term given the vitriolic hatred it inspires in techies, and I'll bet the reason PG is not responding here is because they're figuring out behind closed doors what they can and should do about this sort of thing. Obviously they don't tell their companies what to do, but they may end up needing to institute some additional general guidelines and contingencies if too many bottom-feeders get past their filters.
    - rdl 14y ago
      I'll bet the other reason is he was asleep.
      - pg 14y ago
        Close; I was taking my son to school. We're investigating this now.
  - edandersen 14y ago
    Surely that can be abused? What could this group have possibly pivoted from? http://www.installmonetizer.com/AT_aboutus.php http://www.installmonetizer.com/AT_aboutus.php Plus there are photos of them at YC with their company logo above - they clearly did not pivot.
    - 14y ago
kawsper 14y ago
> Although the company claims it is all “non-personally identifiable data”, according to its website this surprisingly includes not only IP but the globally unique MAC addresses. Enough with the scare tactics. A Mac adress is not, in any way, globally unique.
- daxelrod 14y ago
  Isn't a MAC address supposed to be unique, though?
  - kawsper 14y ago
    They are supposed to, but talk with any sysadmin or a guy hosting a big lan-party and you will know that, that isn't the case. I have hosted several 300-400 person lan-parties and there is always two or three machines with the same MAC-address. A MAC-address is somewhat unique, but it happens that manufactures re-use the address twice or more. I have a feeling that cheaper brands do it more, but I have nothing to back that up. There is a discussion here that backs up my claim: http://superuser.com/questions/268006/are-mac-addresses-unique-when-coming-out-of-the-factory http://superuser.com/questions/268006/are-mac-addresses-uniq...
- jakobe 14y ago
  Yes it is. Every network ethernet adaptor or wifi chip has a unique MAC address.
  - kawsper 14y ago
    In a perfect world that is, and on your home network you would not see any issues. Take 400 computers and 2 of them will have the same MAC-address and you have DHCP-problems. http://superuser.com/questions/268006/are-mac-addresses-unique-when-coming-out-of-the-factory http://superuser.com/questions/268006/are-mac-addresses-uniq...
- fennecfoxen 14y ago
  Excuse me. As a rule, a MAC address is a decent approximation of globally unique, certainly good enough to identify a single computer for advertising purposes. If you have a MAC address and it's not globally unique, it's defective and out of spec. Which isn't to say duplicates never happen (ultra-cheap rip-off network cards, virtual machines, reprogramming your hardware manually, etc), but... there's a reason they go through the rigamarole of partitioning out different OUI blocks to different network equipment vendors.
deleted 14y ago
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- Kliment 14y ago
  It is malware. It is immoral and evil. "Legitimate business" is just bullshit speak for "nobody lobbied to make it illegal".
  - speeder 14y ago
    Exactly. It is like the Aaron case, what the prosecutor did was perfectly legal too and also actually normal in US justice system.
    - alanctgardner2 14y ago
      Can we cut this shit out? I know it's the inevitable Godwin's Lawification of a recent tragedy, but I thought HN was better than exploiting Aarons death to support every random negative view of the legal system. His death has nothing to do with spam applications
- jamesjguthrie 14y ago
  It has spyware in it. It makes the user's IP and MAC available.
- redthrowaway 14y ago
  >Whether your moral compass disagrees with this or not, it's a legitimate business My mother's proliferation of "helpful" toolbars in FF says otherwise. Whichever way you slice it, this is simply a way to prey on uninformed users and shittify their experience. Sure, there's a demand for it. That doesn't make it right. >I'm sure they do everything to ensure the bloatware is just that, and not malware. Well that's a giant relief. So InstallMonetizer is only selling your IP and MAC (!) to advertisers, instead of selling your CC number to the Russian mob. Cheers to small victories.
venomsnake 14y ago
Well, a lot of education about sandboxie or similar software to the users and making the app recovery process more precise and this company is dead. Any business model based on annoying and abusing your users is not viable in the long term.
- pflats 14y ago
  What about a business model based on encouraging other, more desperate developers to annoy and abuse their users? I imagine that's quite viable.
TomGullen 14y ago
At 30c to $1.50 per install, these software companies are under a lot of pressure to make their money back and convert users. This would inevitably lead to some questionable practises which Install Monetizer can claim to be at arms length from. Software I accidentally install, or am offered to install always leaves a bit of a sour taste in my mouth and reflects badly on the software I am originally trying to install.
btipling 14y ago
Winzip and Nero use the Ask Partner Network (I used to work there on the Ask Toolbar) to monetize their free software, so that is probably where that first email came from. http://apn.ask.com/ http://apn.ask.com/ There's also conduit: http://toolbar.conduit.com/ http://toolbar.conduit.com/
- amorphid 14y ago
  I believe offering the Ask bloatware is how BitTorrent finally ended up making money. I guess there's not much money in p2p filesharing.
- longzheng 14y ago
  It wasn't Ask or Conduit. It was actually a company I had trusted. That is before I received their email...
  - MatthewPhillips 14y ago
    Why don't you name them? You're doing everyone a disservice by keeping their dirty secret.
  - btipling 14y ago
    Oh looks like they both install the AVG toolbar now, wow, I didn't know AVG had a program like that: http://www.avg.com/ww-en/reseller http://www.avg.com/ww-en/reseller
- josteink 14y ago
  > Winzip and Nero use the Ask Partner Network Sadly, on Windows even Oracle's Java has the ASK toolbar. Almost nobody has any pride left on the Windows-platform, user-abuse is rampant, almost expected. It's killing the platform and there's nothing Microsoft can do about it.
  - WayneDB 14y ago
    I don't know why they don't open their store to desktop apps. Maybe they have an agreement somewhere which hinders that action.
alanctgardner2 14y ago
Likely they got funded because they have a real way to make money! Unlike whoever offers the next airbnb for dogs. From an ethical standpoint, better the devil you know? Windows freeware developers deserve some compensation for their work, and this seems less scuzzy than other drive-by downloaders. If it became widespread it might break out of the user-exploitation ghetto and pick up real, actually synergistic software to intelligently recommend.
- mercurial 14y ago
  What ethical standpoint is that? That's the devil which installs spyware on your machine. So, they have a business plan, good for them. But it doesn't make them any less scammy, nor does it make it any less disappointing to see YC funding people with the same ethics as your average patent troll.
- darklajid 14y ago
  No, Windows freeware developers offer their software for free. Their choice. If they agree that they 'deserve some compensation' for their work, they should sell it.
  - alanctgardner2 14y ago
    Why does Gittip exist then? It's funny that some developers should be compensated for the positive externalities of their work, but only the ones you deem appropriate. Working with this company would be choosing to 'sell' your work in a more accessible way. If you don't like it, don't install the bundled software and mail the dev a dollar
    - glesica 14y ago
      Gittip doesn't try to trick you into giving anyone money. It is a completely deliberate action on the part of the donor.
    - lmm 14y ago
      I'll just hack your bank account and take your money to compensate for the positive externalities of my work. If you don't like it, use a stronger password and mail me a dollar.
darklajid 14y ago
That's the lowest possible way to make money: Sneaking by and behind the back of your users. If you feel you're entitled to more money, make me pay more for your product. Ask me to donate. Strip away features unless I go 'pro'. But never ever install crap that isn't even related to your product. Rule of thumb: If you wouldn't install that software on your families (like, the wider network - parents, siblings, grandparents) machines while supporting them, don't install it on MY machine either.
- nonamegiven 14y ago
  "If you wouldn't install that software on your families (like, the wider network - parents, siblings, grandparents) machines" Except those people probably would do that.
swies 14y ago
Y Combinator also funded our solution to crapware. http://ninite.com http://ninite.com Basically we automate multiple installers and decline toolbars just like you would. Users range from the nontechnical to NASA. We even have a huge blind user base because these installers are frequently hell to navigate with a screenreader. We make money selling a Pro version with extra features to businesses and school IT departments. It works well and aligns us nicely with our users' interests.
- joelthelion 14y ago
  So basically, they're funding the problem AND the solution. Pretty nifty business-wise, if not very ethical :)
  - Mahn 14y ago
    Perhaps they wanted to learn more about the problem after funding the solution.
- rdl 14y ago
  Wow, I didn't realize ninite was YC. Awesome.
- cousin_it 14y ago
  Wow, thanks for the link to the great product! So even on a platform that's opened up to applications, the threat of crapware can create a business case for a curated third-party app store :-)
- Jamiecon 14y ago
  Just wanted to add my thanks for a great product. We are a pro license holder where I work, I believe. Not sure if this was your point, but I assume that you are using a lot of MSI and Windows API hooks, in which case this is a great example of the flexibility and integration options of Windows being leveraged for the good, as opposed to the crapware blight, which must be as frustrating for Microsoft as it is for us.
  - 14y ago
coderdude 14y ago
Bundling third-party software with installers already happens and will continue to happen whether this company exists or not. If they can improve upon that experience somehow: - Reviewing the software before allowing it to be bundled and weeding out the bad eggs. - Adding user reviews inline with the list of software to install. ...then there's a possibility that they can make this a pleasant, legitimate experience for people.
- skymt 14y ago
  The post we're discussing mentions payouts of $0.30 to $1.50 per install. Factor in InstallMonetizer's unspecified cut, and you're looking at some pretty significant rates. What sort of software do you think can afford to pay that much to get bundled? If it's a trial up-sell at typical shareware pricing, it would need on the order of 10% conversion just to break even. I can't imagine a sensible monetization path for the bundled software that doesn't involve intrusive advertising. Any ethical review process would eliminate every applicant.
  - coderdude 14y ago
    I'm still not sold that this can't be a legitimate business that cares about not bundling crap. Maybe payouts could decrease in size to attract more reasonable software and to grow their offering. It could be used for product launches for good apps. The opportunity here just doesn't seem as narrow to me as it does to others.
- jfb 14y ago
  There's no money in being nice to your victims.
  - coderdude 14y ago
    I think they can still make money without hurting anyone's experience. (Edited because I misinterpreted your comment the first time.)
    - 14y ago
deleted 14y ago
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marv51 14y ago
I think one of the main problems here is that large companys use these shady distribution methods. Nobody gives them any crap about it. I can't count how often I clicked 'no' when some installer tried to install Bing toolbar or Google Chrome. Chrome is/was offered as crapware in the Flash or Adobe Reader installer!!!
kybernetyk 14y ago
The crapware situation on Windows is horrible. I'm a Mac/Linux user but from time to time I have to power up my Windows VM. A few days ago I wanted to install the Partition Magic trial on my Win XP VM. Having left Windows around 2005 I figured that typing "Partition Magic Win XP download" in Google would be helpful. I got a handful of "reputable" download sources like CNet and the like. I went there and was bombarded by 20 (dramatization) different download buttons. I clicked the one that seemed most promising and somehow ended with a new Zip-Archiver installed ... So I went back and found the Partition Magic installer. It was an installer with 'added value' that asked me three times to install some toolbar crap. I ended up with one of those toolbars installed because unchecking the box and clicking on 'next' obviously is not enough. You have to click the decline button instead of next. Now I would consider myself computer literate and yet still I didn't manage to install a simple utility without littering my system with crapware. I can only imagine what hell the internet must be like to inexperienced (read: normal people) Windows users.
- mylittlepony 14y ago
  I'll take this chance to recommend the following linux distributions to those non-sysadmins who are wondering which one they can try out: - Fedora 17 with Gnome. Out of the box it offers all kinds of installation options, like the one I always wanted and only found in Fedora (in my words): "Use all this but only this free space, and also encrypt it". The only downside is that out of the box it lacks some things every desktop user will want, like media codecs, but can be installed very easily. There are also tons of addons for Gnome that you will want to improve the UI (eg: get back the minimize button -.-), you can get them at extensions.gnome.org. - Ubuntu 12.04 server edition. I chose server edition because it has an option for disk encryption, but it will use the entire disk, which sucks unless you have two disks like I do. Then you install 'ubuntu-desktop' and you are done. There is also a problem with both server and desktop edition when installing into some HDD's, they fail to align correctly for different block sizes. Other than that, this is the perfect distro for me. It is LTS so it will be supported for 5 years, and I hope that by that time they have rolled back the crap that they added to 12.10. - Fedora 18. It should be released today, let's see what they got.
  - 14y ago
jheriko 14y ago
part of the problem is that, despite wishful thinking to the contrary windows is /the only/ large platform for desktops and the Windows 8 App Store might as well not exist, so the 'app store' argument is fundamentally flawed. worse though is that this kind of stuff has ever been tolerated. its obviously shady... tricky adverts and sneaky buttons should be just as illegal as any other con or fraud. then they would not exist.
longzheng 14y ago
My friend just found this gem in their privacy policy “We gather personally identifiable and may include information regarding your geo-location, ip address, operating system, language setting and information regarding whether recommended advertiser software has been accepted, downloaded, installed and any reason for failure installing. None of his information is personally identifiable.”
chinmoy 14y ago
Wow....I thought these kind of companies stay and operate from the darkest corners of the internet, just like those CPA networks where you get paid to SPAM the hell out of the internet. Frustrating that these are coming mainstream and Y Combinator has backed one of them.
- Matsta 14y ago
  Actually you would be surprised. The biggest advertiser in the CPA industry over the last few years closed their doors a couple of months ago. And now the EPC (earning's per click) are about 20% of what they used to be, so the majority of CPA networks are either going broke or shutting down for good. I imagine that the majority of them will be closing their doors this year as well which is kind of sad. As of now, not 1 of my friends promoting CPA offers is making money, they've either got themselves a 9-5 or just chewing through their savings.
  - kami8845 14y ago
    Very interesting. Can you expand on that? I actually got out of the CPA industry around April 2012, when it stilled seemed to go well (though not as well as in the days of ringtone offers / acai and so forth)
    - Matsta 14y ago
      Well I can say that the biggest CPA advertiser had a call centre which was there biggest way to earn back the commission they paid us to get us leads. Also these guys had big budgets, unlike all the other advertisers, so when there were days when a certain offer would earn more then 100k they would be happy to pay. I'm guessing the other networks didn't have enough liquid assets to pay back publishers on time (we would get paid every Tuesday usually). Also the main network wasn't fussy where the traffic came from, as where every other network wants organic traffic (which is basically impossible anyway), so they would usually cut you off as soon as you started sending social media traffic, email traffic, sms traffic etc. But I primarily did email submit offers, they would convert as soon as someone put in their email so we would usually get conversion rates of 30-60% which was pretty dang good. But yea acai/ringtone got wiped out when the FTC stepped in over all the 'legitimate' reviews and credit card companies got strict on rebilling (which was the only reason they made money). The whole industry is struggling though, most people are now trying to make money from selling SEO services or reselling Facebook Fans and Youtube Views (which Google nuked the other day).
paulsutter 14y ago
These guys must be living in fear of Wire Fraud and Computer Fraud charges. I'm less than half kidding. This is real destructive harm, so it's closer to the intent of the laws. The incredible churn rate is a pretty clear indication that end users dont want the software being installed. And here we have hundreds of thousands of systems compromised. Selective enforcement of draconian laws is scary, really.
jbk 14y ago
I can speak quite a bit about this "industry": We (VLC) receive 1 of those offers per day. They are liars, shady business, IP violators and are downright dangerous. They have all those great offers for you, but they refuse to give any details as soon as you ask any question. More than half of them are "the biggest in the world" (sic). They lie about download numbers, about download size, about number of software actually installed and about their connexions. They even lie on the actual payback price. If you refuse, they build special websites, copying yours, with your IP and trademark and register adwords with your name, in every way possible. They also resell their solutions/websites to other people, using "Affiliate networks", so that once you take one down, 20 appear. And the guy who you took down had no idea who you were or what the software was... They also have deals with download.com/softopedia/softonic to change/rewrap your installer, without your agreement, often violating your license; or they give back money to those websites, so they are ranked higher than normal other downloads. And of course, open source software are never respected. I believe OP is very polite: There are no good reasons to not shame them publicly.
- jiggy2011 14y ago
  Exactly this. I'm often advising people to install VLC when they are having problems with Windows Media Player, but whenever I tell them to google for it on their own they end up with some toolbar infested crap. So now I specifically instruct them to go to videolan.org.
  - kbutler 14y ago
    Googling for "vlc", "vlc download", or "vlc player", the top 3-4 results are all to videolan.org. Ads may distort this for some users, though...
    - jiggy2011 14y ago
      yes, this didn't always used to be the case though. Hopefully some google algo tweaks are working to help.
    - rogerdpack 14y ago
joelthelion 14y ago
I prefer to see it this way: Y combinator is funding the future of the Linux desktop by encouraging crapware on Windows :)
deleted 14y ago
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louischatriot 14y ago
When beginning working on our current startup, we decided to switch from Windows to Linux to make development easier. I was planning to keep a partition with Windows but I soon found out how being on Linux I didn't have to worry about shit like this anymore. Needless to say I don't use Windows anymore.
edandersen 14y ago
It's even worse, according to http://www.installmonetizer.com/AT_aboutus.php http://www.installmonetizer.com/AT_aboutus.php one of the "advisors" - Arjun Bedi - works for Microsoft! Working to destroy his own platform. Classy.
- bencollier49 14y ago
  Or encourage people to use the MS appstore on Windows 8.
- tanzam75 14y ago
  According to his Linkedin profile, he works for Microsoft Singapore, doing some "Master Black Belt" six-sigma synergy "Global Process Solutions" MBA-buzzword bullshit. And only since December 2011. He's not working on real products.
Matsta 14y ago
Ok, I think one thing I don't think people fully understand is how these companies actually make their money back. Now in the past they will either try to sell you something or get you to fill in a CPA offer. Now 2012 has hit the IM/Internet Marketing industry hard mainly because people aren't spending money as much as they used to. Like I mentioned in another comment, basically the whole CPA industry is going belly up and will continue to do so in 2013. So how do these guys make money? Well I know the biggest craze is to make toolbars that actually control your Facebook/Twitter/Email accounts. I've already seen one made for chrome and the guy had put a whosamungus tracking code in there that had over 10k people online at the time I checked it. The toolbar was capable of sending mass private messages, posting on your wall and inviting all your friends to events on Facebook. And the problem is, it's pretty tough for Facebook to block this since it looks legitimate as the actions are directly coming from the browser and not a shady 3rd party site. Another tactic which is more common is to replace websites advertising code with their own. This means replacing Adsense ID's or completely changing the banner code all together. This is what Kim Dotcom will be doing when he launches his new Mega site this week. They also alter Google results so they can either promote their own sites or sell traffic to advertisers for profit. So to think they are 'only' tracking your IP/Mac address, think again...
- dhimes 14y ago
  I'm not following- how do they get paid?
  - Matsta 14y ago
    Well basically it's almost a pyramid scheme. These companies will go and promote another crapware company and get commission off that. So basically it's like a giant loop. Or they will sell the data they have harvested such as your personal details (email/full name/date of birth/location) to a 3rd party.
    - dhimes 14y ago
      Ok, so if I understand this: with the fb/twitter stuff, they are intercepting your private data and selling it. With Google adverts they are removing them and inserting their own (and their own ppc sales, I presume). And with the Google results companies pay them to alter the organic search results and place their link higher. Wow.
Aardwolf 14y ago
This is the reason why I don't understand that people say that Linux is for "technical" users while Windows is for regular consumers. In Linux it's easier to install something that in Windows. E.g. to install a CD to MP3 rip program, in Archlinux all you do is: # Search for some mp3 ripper program pacman -Ss mp3 | grep rip # Install one of them from the list that looked ok from the description pacman -S ripperx In Windows, the steps are: Search the internet for rip mp3 Go through hundreds of spammy results Try to identify one that isn't crapware Download its installer Run its installer Be careful at every page of the installer that it isn't installing crap How can they say Linux is harder than Windows? I don't get it.
- keyboardP 14y ago
  How exactly is a regular customer going to know what to type and where? Many have trouble with a GUI, let alone a CLI. And Archlinux is just one of many distros and has its own idiosyncracies (e.g. "Pacman" isn't going to work on Ubuntu out the box). Installation of crapware has nothing to do with ease of installation, you've just purposefully made it seem drawn out. You could've just said Google "CD to MP3" and a few results down is a "how to" guide that uses the open-source CDex program - with a step by step guide.
  - webreac 14y ago
    I am a linux user (linux mint cinnamon). When I need a new software, I launch the software manager, I type in the search criteria. This gives me a list of software. When I click a software, I have a list of users feedbacks and an install button. When I click install, it asks for my password and that is all. When I am on the command line and I type a command that is not installed, I get: jef@sweethome ~ $ 7z The program '7z' is currently not installed. You can install it by typing: sudo apt-get install p7zip-full I just need to do copy paste and type in my password. Sometimes, the software is not in the repository (for example xbmc), but the commands to type, or the installer to launch are clearly indicated on the site. I was a windows user, software installation (and removal) is a lot easier now.
    - 14y ago
patio11 14y ago
So when earlier it was mentioned, I assumed "They have to have a different angle on this; they're a YC company." And seeing a strong thread title and no evidence for it other than "The industry they're in is ridiculously seedy", I thought maybe HN was in rush to judgement mode. So I thought I'd try, you know, installing something. Make your own call: http://images1.bingocardcreator.com/blog-images/hn/its-not-a-witchhunt-if-they-are-actually-witches.png http://images1.bingocardcreator.com/blog-images/hn/its-not-a...
- sjwright 14y ago
  My favourite part is how, by default, it won't even save your old settings for un-installation. Nice.
- dudurocha 14y ago
  It makes me a little sad when I remember what pg aways say to startups. Make something users love. Not this time, though...
  - aegiso 14y ago
    The users aren't the people installing the software. The users are the clowns writing the software that is so horrible it needs to pay for installs. And those users will love this new attack vector backed by some of the most respected folk in Silicon Valley.
- kvnn 14y ago
  "They have to have a different angle on this; they're a YC company." Why do you think they would have a different angle if they are a YC company?
  - Tyrannosaurs 14y ago
    I don't think there's an implication that a YC company would be more moral, just that they'd be doing something a little more interesting or subtle than the same old crap sleaze balls have been pulling for years now. It's like finding that someone has got through the YC selection process based on a business model which involves putting "sex, horny, porn" in the title of each page on their website.
pioul 14y ago
Would be interesting to get a statement from PG on that one, at least to explain what's so great about this company.
- tomasien 14y ago
  He's investigating now
  - lwat 14y ago
    Wouldn't he investigate BEFORE investing in such a dodgy, scammy looking company?
herf 14y ago
This is also why the "unbundling" of Windows turned out so badly for consumers. Not having a decent mail app or video/photos app by default (like the Mac) means people have to navigate this crap to get the most basic things done. We (f.lux) have a similar experience to VLC: tons of cloned installers and inbound emails for a free product.
gyardley 14y ago
These founders need to be very, very careful. Business-to-business services that are disliked by the public and involve any type of tracking or analytics aren't just class-action-lawsuit bait, they're ambitious-prosecutor bait. All they need is enough bad PR, which it looks like they're in the process of getting, to make the predators aware of the prey. Judging from reactions here, they're not going to get much community support when the legal backlash inevitably happens, either.
- joelthelion 14y ago
  Don't worry, ambitious prosecutors are busy enough with innocent activists.
aegiso 14y ago
I cling to the hope that there's something I'm not seeing here, but I fear that might not be the case. All I see is a business model that on top of being reprehensible, is completely out of whack with the times, and even if successful promises to cannibalize itself out of existence by destroying any remnant of faith that Windows user still have in the Wild West of freely downloadable native Windows apps. Please, let not today be remembered as the day that YC jumped the shark.
languagehacker 14y ago
You don't honestly expect me to read an entire article written by someone who would use a "sarcasm mark" -- do you?
Shorel 14y ago
It's just another Softonic. That's not 'the future'. Just the annoying present.
89a 14y ago
wouldn't be windows without the chance of catching computer aids every time you open an installer
jgmmo 14y ago
As a malware researcher, and the person who writes anti-virus definitions, I can proudly say that I wrote some rules to deal with Adware.InstallMonetizer just yesterday. Most other vendors seem to be detecting it as well.
biot 14y ago
When it launched OpenCandy did this and all installs were opt-in only: http://news.cnet.com/8301-17939_109-10094314-2.html http://news.cnet.com/8301-17939_109-10094314-2.html I'm not sure if that's changed in the meantime, but I recall it being a refreshing change from every other system which defaulted to automatically installing additional software rather than the user specifically having to choose to opt-in.
- mratzloff 14y ago
  OpenCandy is basically the only credible operator in this space.
namdnay 14y ago
These guys are so scammy, their website is blocked at my office: "Malicious Sources;Scam/Questionable/Illegal"...
joering2 14y ago
Why not? PG is about to make killing on AirBnB and co-founder is a well-known spammer from top-100 FBI list [1] that used our tax money to send his spam, and AirBnB been known for spam practices contacting people from Craigslist [2] to crank-start their startup with empty database. Further, AFAIK his SocialCam is worth tons of money as well, mostly thanks to Facebook overspamming practices [3] Truly surprised PG is not full time in spam business; he would make triple killing! :) HN moderators: its OK to downvote if the truth feels uncomfortable to you. EDIT: Since this is getting strongly upvoted; here are the links: [1] http://gawker.com/5853754/the-seedy-spammy-past-of-airbnbs-co+founder http://gawker.com/5853754/the-seedy-spammy-past-of-airbnbs-c... [2] http://www.tnooz.com/2011/06/01/news/airbnb-admits-rogue-sales-team-used-craigslist-for-stealthy-property-drive/ http://www.tnooz.com/2011/06/01/news/airbnb-admits-rogue-sal... [3] http://www.pcmike.com/what-im-thinkin/beware-of-socialcam http://www.pcmike.com/what-im-thinkin/beware-of-socialcam
- jiggy2011 14y ago
  Ironically enough, IIRC PG was one of pioneers of spam filtering.
  - jeremyjh 14y ago
    Yes he wrote the algorithm used in Spambayes.
  - Paul_S 14y ago
    And Peter Detkin coined the term patent troll and now runs a company that's one of the worlds biggest patent trolls. Irony? Or just people being willing to do anything for money. There are worse motivations.
    - dexterchief 14y ago
      There emphatically is not a worse motivation that being willing to do anything for money. Do something to ensure there is a little less tragedy in the commons. Please.
j_s 14y ago
I want to see the pitch deck that got these guys into YC
tyang 14y ago
The future is now, apparently.
songzme 14y ago
As a windows 8 user, I sort of expected that Windows would protect me from crapware bundles, especially since that was what destroyed my windows 7, vista, and all my previous windows experience. I guess not.
pg 14y ago
We're investigating. It will take at least a couple days, because we'll need to meet with the founders in person. FWIW, the install window Patrick overlaid on top of InstallMonetizer's site in that screenshot is not actually InstallMonetizer.
- w1ntermute 14y ago
  This is an important point, something that wasn't completely apparent from patio's screenshot. Babylon is a client of InstallMonetizer. Of course, if they were involved in creating that installer, then I'd say they are partially responsible.
- deleted 14y ago
  [deleted]
  - cooldeal 14y ago
    I believe he means that he needs to discuss this issue in person and will need a physical meeting, not that he invested without meeting them.
    - madaxe 14y ago
      Ah crap, parse error, missed "with". Either way, strikes me as a dubious and reputationally dangerous model for YCombinator to get involved with.
      - thaumaturgy 14y ago
        YC funds enough founders now, with few enough partners, that it's entirely possible for someone to be doing something sneaky and YC wouldn't catch on right away. Initially, YC just has the business model / product description statement from the founders, a video (do they still do that?), an MVP if one exists, and maybe a meeting with the founders. The only way this could really negatively reflect on YC's integrity -- if that's up to us to judge anyway -- is if the accusations turn out to be true and YC either chooses not to investigate or chooses not to counsel the founders against doing something like this. (Remember, YC does not have a controlling interest in the teams.) Since pg has said they're checking in to it, I don't think "YC is turning evil" is a reasonable narrative here.
madaxe 14y ago
They're also guilty of apostrophe crime. Advertiser's. Please. Advertisers'. Quality.
tomasien 14y ago
Man people really are looking for an excuse to hate on PG. One of the 200 companies they've funded does something spammy and all of a sudden it's "YC this", "PG that". It's great to bring it to his attention, but these dudes are the ones building the spam engine, PG was just one of many investors in the company. We can't know how much of this he knew beforehand, but he says he's investigating, which isn't even the point. I'm sure PG was keen on investigating this without everyone pointing fingers at him like he made the decision to create this spamware.
- SyneRyder 14y ago
  InstallMonetizer were in the Winter 2012 YC batch (according to their site & TechCrunch), but they've been around since mid 2010. The YC folks had to know that installing toolbars was InstallMonetizer's business model... surely? I don't want to hate on YC, I was just very surprised to hear they'd invested in this company, and I'm interested to hear what their reasons were.
leeskye 14y ago
These guys raised eyebrows a couple years back on Joel Splosky's Business of Software blog: http://discuss.joelonsoftware.com/default.asp?biz.5.837817.10 http://discuss.joelonsoftware.com/default.asp?biz.5.837817.1...
mcgwiz 14y ago
These products exploit/capitalize on computer illiteracy. That's not something I would personally be proud of, but computer illiteracy is the real problem here. Products like this can ultimately accelerate the correction of computer illiteracy. That correction can come in the form of greater mainstream cultural impetus for computer literacy training, for operating system developerrs to prevent these types of actions (app stores of all platforms are decent at this), or by creating/expanding a market for products that intercept and neutralize this type of exploitation. The more efficient the means of exploiting computer illiteracy, the sooner the exploit is, in some way, neutralized.
- JanneVee 14y ago
  Why do you think the iPad sells so well?
p3d4nt 14y ago
They say it like its a bad thing...?
Suan 14y ago
I've been trying to think what is the root cause of this sad state of affairs on Windows. Attacking the scammers is not going to work since obviously their scams are profitable (and legal enough to get away with...) Is it (the lack of) education among users? I find it curious that when compared to financial products, where improving financial education is often brought up as a solution, there's a lot less mention of education when it comes to cases like these. Sadly this kind of "don't fall for these scams" computing education is not very transferrable to more productive uses of computing. In a free market, if users stop falling for this crap (admittedly a tall order on Windows) then the scammers will naturally go out of business.
spyder 14y ago
Are there any tools to block these installers for a computer illiterate user but still allow non-crapware installers?
hakaaak 14y ago
I absolutely despise crapware, google or ask toolbars, etc. that are bundled with installers, however if there is a market for it and there is no law against it, it will happen. And once Google/etc. one day has everyone's credit card info and charges us more often, I could totally see items starting to be added ala Vistaprint (if you've used Vistaprint you almost certainly know what I'm talking about) like magazine trial subscriptions, etc. The more the economy sinks and people are less willing to spend, the more crap will get dumped on us. Fact of life.
villardlee 14y ago
good

1065 points by longzheng 14y ago

It'd be nice to hear what pg thinks of this, though he's probably not in position to comment on this publicly.

The past public disparagement of Microsoft's business model and praise of FOSS and Apple, makes fodder for easy conspiracy theories. Rather than a conspiracy, however, I suspect it is more likely just a case where YC doesn't give a fuck about further degrading the Windows ecosystem. Next time someone complains here on HN about Microsoft's malfeasance in locking down Windows RT, remind them that they have enterprise customers who don't want to deal with shit like this.

nonamegiven 14y ago

Although I was put off initially, I think I wouldn't mind a straight ad that I see once in an installer. But leaving spoor behind in the form of toolbars is beyond the pale. Toolbars? Really?

mikecane 14y ago

If you don't understand that the thing that is more important than money is trust, then you shouldn't be in business at all. The minute you screw someone, you've lost them as a customer forever and you've ruined your own reputation.

rrrrtttt 14y ago

There's a public company in Israel called Babylon whose business model is giving away a popular translator software in exchange for installing spyware. They're huge and are planning an American IPO this year. Some people here are saying that it's all a big stack of cards and investors are going to lose all their money, but the analysts are actually saying that it's a valid business model and the company is underpriced. I'm wondering who is right... How is this business model of spying on your users different from Google's or Facebook's?

jordan0day 14y ago
Active vs. passive, perhaps (although admittedly that distinction has shrunken substantially). That is, "in the good old days", facebook or google really only tracked what you did, on facebook or google, while crapware could track everything you did on the computer. Now, of course, as more and more of our lives are based around our browsers, and google and facebook track more of what you do anywhere on the web, not just on their sites, so I suppose it's not that different.
SyneRyder 14y ago
Would that be the same Babylon translation software that patio11 found advertising on the InstallMonetizer network? See his comment (and screenshot of the installer's default options) here: http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5060399 http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5060399
hncommenter13 14y ago
Perion (Nasdaq:PERI) has the same model, also from Israel. There's a whole crop of Israeli companies that have similar businesses, in fact.

edandersen 14y ago

PG: care to comment? Were you involved in this investment decision?

rdl 14y ago
One thing to keep in mind is that YC funds groups. If a team is funded to do one thing, then pivots to doing something else later, it's not like YC is going to de-fund you. (I don't know anything about this specific company)
- dasil003 14y ago
  Not today, but this could be terrible for PR for YC over the medium term given the vitriolic hatred it inspires in techies, and I'll bet the reason PG is not responding here is because they're figuring out behind closed doors what they can and should do about this sort of thing. Obviously they don't tell their companies what to do, but they may end up needing to institute some additional general guidelines and contingencies if too many bottom-feeders get past their filters.
  - rdl 14y ago
    I'll bet the other reason is he was asleep.
    - pg 14y ago
      Close; I was taking my son to school. We're investigating this now.
- edandersen 14y ago
  Surely that can be abused? What could this group have possibly pivoted from? http://www.installmonetizer.com/AT_aboutus.php http://www.installmonetizer.com/AT_aboutus.php Plus there are photos of them at YC with their company logo above - they clearly did not pivot.
  - 14y ago

kawsper 14y ago

> Although the company claims it is all “non-personally identifiable data”, according to its website this surprisingly includes not only IP but the globally unique MAC addresses. Enough with the scare tactics. A Mac adress is not, in any way, globally unique.

daxelrod 14y ago
Isn't a MAC address supposed to be unique, though?
- kawsper 14y ago
  They are supposed to, but talk with any sysadmin or a guy hosting a big lan-party and you will know that, that isn't the case. I have hosted several 300-400 person lan-parties and there is always two or three machines with the same MAC-address. A MAC-address is somewhat unique, but it happens that manufactures re-use the address twice or more. I have a feeling that cheaper brands do it more, but I have nothing to back that up. There is a discussion here that backs up my claim: http://superuser.com/questions/268006/are-mac-addresses-unique-when-coming-out-of-the-factory http://superuser.com/questions/268006/are-mac-addresses-uniq...
jakobe 14y ago
Yes it is. Every network ethernet adaptor or wifi chip has a unique MAC address.
- kawsper 14y ago
  In a perfect world that is, and on your home network you would not see any issues. Take 400 computers and 2 of them will have the same MAC-address and you have DHCP-problems. http://superuser.com/questions/268006/are-mac-addresses-unique-when-coming-out-of-the-factory http://superuser.com/questions/268006/are-mac-addresses-uniq...
fennecfoxen 14y ago
Excuse me. As a rule, a MAC address is a decent approximation of globally unique, certainly good enough to identify a single computer for advertising purposes. If you have a MAC address and it's not globally unique, it's defective and out of spec. Which isn't to say duplicates never happen (ultra-cheap rip-off network cards, virtual machines, reprogramming your hardware manually, etc), but... there's a reason they go through the rigamarole of partitioning out different OUI blocks to different network equipment vendors.

deleted 14y ago

[deleted]

Kliment 14y ago
It is malware. It is immoral and evil. "Legitimate business" is just bullshit speak for "nobody lobbied to make it illegal".
- speeder 14y ago
  Exactly. It is like the Aaron case, what the prosecutor did was perfectly legal too and also actually normal in US justice system.
  - alanctgardner2 14y ago
    Can we cut this shit out? I know it's the inevitable Godwin's Lawification of a recent tragedy, but I thought HN was better than exploiting Aarons death to support every random negative view of the legal system. His death has nothing to do with spam applications
jamesjguthrie 14y ago
It has spyware in it. It makes the user's IP and MAC available.
redthrowaway 14y ago
>Whether your moral compass disagrees with this or not, it's a legitimate business My mother's proliferation of "helpful" toolbars in FF says otherwise. Whichever way you slice it, this is simply a way to prey on uninformed users and shittify their experience. Sure, there's a demand for it. That doesn't make it right. >I'm sure they do everything to ensure the bloatware is just that, and not malware. Well that's a giant relief. So InstallMonetizer is only selling your IP and MAC (!) to advertisers, instead of selling your CC number to the Russian mob. Cheers to small victories.

venomsnake 14y ago

Well, a lot of education about sandboxie or similar software to the users and making the app recovery process more precise and this company is dead. Any business model based on annoying and abusing your users is not viable in the long term.

pflats 14y ago
What about a business model based on encouraging other, more desperate developers to annoy and abuse their users? I imagine that's quite viable.

TomGullen 14y ago

At 30c to $1.50 per install, these software companies are under a lot of pressure to make their money back and convert users. This would inevitably lead to some questionable practises which Install Monetizer can claim to be at arms length from. Software I accidentally install, or am offered to install always leaves a bit of a sour taste in my mouth and reflects badly on the software I am originally trying to install.

btipling 14y ago

Winzip and Nero use the Ask Partner Network (I used to work there on the Ask Toolbar) to monetize their free software, so that is probably where that first email came from. http://apn.ask.com/ http://apn.ask.com/ There's also conduit: http://toolbar.conduit.com/ http://toolbar.conduit.com/

amorphid 14y ago
I believe offering the Ask bloatware is how BitTorrent finally ended up making money. I guess there's not much money in p2p filesharing.
longzheng 14y ago
It wasn't Ask or Conduit. It was actually a company I had trusted. That is before I received their email...
- MatthewPhillips 14y ago
  Why don't you name them? You're doing everyone a disservice by keeping their dirty secret.
- btipling 14y ago
  Oh looks like they both install the AVG toolbar now, wow, I didn't know AVG had a program like that: http://www.avg.com/ww-en/reseller http://www.avg.com/ww-en/reseller
josteink 14y ago
> Winzip and Nero use the Ask Partner Network Sadly, on Windows even Oracle's Java has the ASK toolbar. Almost nobody has any pride left on the Windows-platform, user-abuse is rampant, almost expected. It's killing the platform and there's nothing Microsoft can do about it.
- WayneDB 14y ago
  I don't know why they don't open their store to desktop apps. Maybe they have an agreement somewhere which hinders that action.

alanctgardner2 14y ago

Likely they got funded because they have a real way to make money! Unlike whoever offers the next airbnb for dogs. From an ethical standpoint, better the devil you know? Windows freeware developers deserve some compensation for their work, and this seems less scuzzy than other drive-by downloaders. If it became widespread it might break out of the user-exploitation ghetto and pick up real, actually synergistic software to intelligently recommend.

mercurial 14y ago
What ethical standpoint is that? That's the devil which installs spyware on your machine. So, they have a business plan, good for them. But it doesn't make them any less scammy, nor does it make it any less disappointing to see YC funding people with the same ethics as your average patent troll.
darklajid 14y ago
No, Windows freeware developers offer their software for free. Their choice. If they agree that they 'deserve some compensation' for their work, they should sell it.
- alanctgardner2 14y ago
  Why does Gittip exist then? It's funny that some developers should be compensated for the positive externalities of their work, but only the ones you deem appropriate. Working with this company would be choosing to 'sell' your work in a more accessible way. If you don't like it, don't install the bundled software and mail the dev a dollar
  - glesica 14y ago
    Gittip doesn't try to trick you into giving anyone money. It is a completely deliberate action on the part of the donor.
  - lmm 14y ago
    I'll just hack your bank account and take your money to compensate for the positive externalities of my work. If you don't like it, use a stronger password and mail me a dollar.

darklajid 14y ago

That's the lowest possible way to make money: Sneaking by and behind the back of your users. If you feel you're entitled to more money, make me pay more for your product. Ask me to donate. Strip away features unless I go 'pro'. But never ever install crap that isn't even related to your product. Rule of thumb: If you wouldn't install that software on your families (like, the wider network - parents, siblings, grandparents) machines while supporting them, don't install it on MY machine either.

nonamegiven 14y ago
"If you wouldn't install that software on your families (like, the wider network - parents, siblings, grandparents) machines" Except those people probably would do that.

swies 14y ago

Y Combinator also funded our solution to crapware. http://ninite.com http://ninite.com Basically we automate multiple installers and decline toolbars just like you would. Users range from the nontechnical to NASA. We even have a huge blind user base because these installers are frequently hell to navigate with a screenreader. We make money selling a Pro version with extra features to businesses and school IT departments. It works well and aligns us nicely with our users' interests.

joelthelion 14y ago
So basically, they're funding the problem AND the solution. Pretty nifty business-wise, if not very ethical :)
- Mahn 14y ago
  Perhaps they wanted to learn more about the problem after funding the solution.
rdl 14y ago
Wow, I didn't realize ninite was YC. Awesome.
cousin_it 14y ago
Wow, thanks for the link to the great product! So even on a platform that's opened up to applications, the threat of crapware can create a business case for a curated third-party app store :-)
Jamiecon 14y ago
Just wanted to add my thanks for a great product. We are a pro license holder where I work, I believe. Not sure if this was your point, but I assume that you are using a lot of MSI and Windows API hooks, in which case this is a great example of the flexibility and integration options of Windows being leveraged for the good, as opposed to the crapware blight, which must be as frustrating for Microsoft as it is for us.
- 14y ago

coderdude 14y ago

Bundling third-party software with installers already happens and will continue to happen whether this company exists or not. If they can improve upon that experience somehow: - Reviewing the software before allowing it to be bundled and weeding out the bad eggs. - Adding user reviews inline with the list of software to install. ...then there's a possibility that they can make this a pleasant, legitimate experience for people.

skymt 14y ago
The post we're discussing mentions payouts of $0.30 to $1.50 per install. Factor in InstallMonetizer's unspecified cut, and you're looking at some pretty significant rates. What sort of software do you think can afford to pay that much to get bundled? If it's a trial up-sell at typical shareware pricing, it would need on the order of 10% conversion just to break even. I can't imagine a sensible monetization path for the bundled software that doesn't involve intrusive advertising. Any ethical review process would eliminate every applicant.
- coderdude 14y ago
  I'm still not sold that this can't be a legitimate business that cares about not bundling crap. Maybe payouts could decrease in size to attract more reasonable software and to grow their offering. It could be used for product launches for good apps. The opportunity here just doesn't seem as narrow to me as it does to others.
jfb 14y ago
There's no money in being nice to your victims.
- coderdude 14y ago
  I think they can still make money without hurting anyone's experience. (Edited because I misinterpreted your comment the first time.)
  - 14y ago

deleted 14y ago

[deleted]

marv51 14y ago

I think one of the main problems here is that large companys use these shady distribution methods. Nobody gives them any crap about it. I can't count how often I clicked 'no' when some installer tried to install Bing toolbar or Google Chrome. Chrome is/was offered as crapware in the Flash or Adobe Reader installer!!!

kybernetyk 14y ago

The crapware situation on Windows is horrible. I'm a Mac/Linux user but from time to time I have to power up my Windows VM. A few days ago I wanted to install the Partition Magic trial on my Win XP VM. Having left Windows around 2005 I figured that typing "Partition Magic Win XP download" in Google would be helpful. I got a handful of "reputable" download sources like CNet and the like. I went there and was bombarded by 20 (dramatization) different download buttons. I clicked the one that seemed most promising and somehow ended with a new Zip-Archiver installed ... So I went back and found the Partition Magic installer. It was an installer with 'added value' that asked me three times to install some toolbar crap. I ended up with one of those toolbars installed because unchecking the box and clicking on 'next' obviously is not enough. You have to click the decline button instead of next. Now I would consider myself computer literate and yet still I didn't manage to install a simple utility without littering my system with crapware. I can only imagine what hell the internet must be like to inexperienced (read: normal people) Windows users.

mylittlepony 14y ago
I'll take this chance to recommend the following linux distributions to those non-sysadmins who are wondering which one they can try out: - Fedora 17 with Gnome. Out of the box it offers all kinds of installation options, like the one I always wanted and only found in Fedora (in my words): "Use all this but only this free space, and also encrypt it". The only downside is that out of the box it lacks some things every desktop user will want, like media codecs, but can be installed very easily. There are also tons of addons for Gnome that you will want to improve the UI (eg: get back the minimize button -.-), you can get them at extensions.gnome.org. - Ubuntu 12.04 server edition. I chose server edition because it has an option for disk encryption, but it will use the entire disk, which sucks unless you have two disks like I do. Then you install 'ubuntu-desktop' and you are done. There is also a problem with both server and desktop edition when installing into some HDD's, they fail to align correctly for different block sizes. Other than that, this is the perfect distro for me. It is LTS so it will be supported for 5 years, and I hope that by that time they have rolled back the crap that they added to 12.10. - Fedora 18. It should be released today, let's see what they got.
- 14y ago

jheriko 14y ago

part of the problem is that, despite wishful thinking to the contrary windows is /the only/ large platform for desktops and the Windows 8 App Store might as well not exist, so the 'app store' argument is fundamentally flawed. worse though is that this kind of stuff has ever been tolerated. its obviously shady... tricky adverts and sneaky buttons should be just as illegal as any other con or fraud. then they would not exist.

longzheng 14y ago

My friend just found this gem in their privacy policy “We gather personally identifiable and may include information regarding your geo-location, ip address, operating system, language setting and information regarding whether recommended advertiser software has been accepted, downloaded, installed and any reason for failure installing. None of his information is personally identifiable.”

chinmoy 14y ago

Wow....I thought these kind of companies stay and operate from the darkest corners of the internet, just like those CPA networks where you get paid to SPAM the hell out of the internet. Frustrating that these are coming mainstream and Y Combinator has backed one of them.

Matsta 14y ago
Actually you would be surprised. The biggest advertiser in the CPA industry over the last few years closed their doors a couple of months ago. And now the EPC (earning's per click) are about 20% of what they used to be, so the majority of CPA networks are either going broke or shutting down for good. I imagine that the majority of them will be closing their doors this year as well which is kind of sad. As of now, not 1 of my friends promoting CPA offers is making money, they've either got themselves a 9-5 or just chewing through their savings.
- kami8845 14y ago
  Very interesting. Can you expand on that? I actually got out of the CPA industry around April 2012, when it stilled seemed to go well (though not as well as in the days of ringtone offers / acai and so forth)
  - Matsta 14y ago
    Well I can say that the biggest CPA advertiser had a call centre which was there biggest way to earn back the commission they paid us to get us leads. Also these guys had big budgets, unlike all the other advertisers, so when there were days when a certain offer would earn more then 100k they would be happy to pay. I'm guessing the other networks didn't have enough liquid assets to pay back publishers on time (we would get paid every Tuesday usually). Also the main network wasn't fussy where the traffic came from, as where every other network wants organic traffic (which is basically impossible anyway), so they would usually cut you off as soon as you started sending social media traffic, email traffic, sms traffic etc. But I primarily did email submit offers, they would convert as soon as someone put in their email so we would usually get conversion rates of 30-60% which was pretty dang good. But yea acai/ringtone got wiped out when the FTC stepped in over all the 'legitimate' reviews and credit card companies got strict on rebilling (which was the only reason they made money). The whole industry is struggling though, most people are now trying to make money from selling SEO services or reselling Facebook Fans and Youtube Views (which Google nuked the other day).

paulsutter 14y ago

These guys must be living in fear of Wire Fraud and Computer Fraud charges. I'm less than half kidding. This is real destructive harm, so it's closer to the intent of the laws. The incredible churn rate is a pretty clear indication that end users dont want the software being installed. And here we have hundreds of thousands of systems compromised. Selective enforcement of draconian laws is scary, really.

jbk 14y ago

I can speak quite a bit about this "industry": We (VLC) receive 1 of those offers per day. They are liars, shady business, IP violators and are downright dangerous. They have all those great offers for you, but they refuse to give any details as soon as you ask any question. More than half of them are "the biggest in the world" (sic). They lie about download numbers, about download size, about number of software actually installed and about their connexions. They even lie on the actual payback price. If you refuse, they build special websites, copying yours, with your IP and trademark and register adwords with your name, in every way possible. They also resell their solutions/websites to other people, using "Affiliate networks", so that once you take one down, 20 appear. And the guy who you took down had no idea who you were or what the software was... They also have deals with download.com/softopedia/softonic to change/rewrap your installer, without your agreement, often violating your license; or they give back money to those websites, so they are ranked higher than normal other downloads. And of course, open source software are never respected. I believe OP is very polite: There are no good reasons to not shame them publicly.

jiggy2011 14y ago
Exactly this. I'm often advising people to install VLC when they are having problems with Windows Media Player, but whenever I tell them to google for it on their own they end up with some toolbar infested crap. So now I specifically instruct them to go to videolan.org.
- kbutler 14y ago
  Googling for "vlc", "vlc download", or "vlc player", the top 3-4 results are all to videolan.org. Ads may distort this for some users, though...
  - jiggy2011 14y ago
    yes, this didn't always used to be the case though. Hopefully some google algo tweaks are working to help.
  - rogerdpack 14y ago

joelthelion 14y ago

I prefer to see it this way: Y combinator is funding the future of the Linux desktop by encouraging crapware on Windows :)

deleted 14y ago

[deleted]

louischatriot 14y ago

When beginning working on our current startup, we decided to switch from Windows to Linux to make development easier. I was planning to keep a partition with Windows but I soon found out how being on Linux I didn't have to worry about shit like this anymore. Needless to say I don't use Windows anymore.

edandersen 14y ago

It's even worse, according to http://www.installmonetizer.com/AT_aboutus.php http://www.installmonetizer.com/AT_aboutus.php one of the "advisors" - Arjun Bedi - works for Microsoft! Working to destroy his own platform. Classy.

bencollier49 14y ago
Or encourage people to use the MS appstore on Windows 8.
tanzam75 14y ago
According to his Linkedin profile, he works for Microsoft Singapore, doing some "Master Black Belt" six-sigma synergy "Global Process Solutions" MBA-buzzword bullshit. And only since December 2011. He's not working on real products.

Matsta 14y ago

Ok, I think one thing I don't think people fully understand is how these companies actually make their money back. Now in the past they will either try to sell you something or get you to fill in a CPA offer. Now 2012 has hit the IM/Internet Marketing industry hard mainly because people aren't spending money as much as they used to. Like I mentioned in another comment, basically the whole CPA industry is going belly up and will continue to do so in 2013. So how do these guys make money? Well I know the biggest craze is to make toolbars that actually control your Facebook/Twitter/Email accounts. I've already seen one made for chrome and the guy had put a whosamungus tracking code in there that had over 10k people online at the time I checked it. The toolbar was capable of sending mass private messages, posting on your wall and inviting all your friends to events on Facebook. And the problem is, it's pretty tough for Facebook to block this since it looks legitimate as the actions are directly coming from the browser and not a shady 3rd party site. Another tactic which is more common is to replace websites advertising code with their own. This means replacing Adsense ID's or completely changing the banner code all together. This is what Kim Dotcom will be doing when he launches his new Mega site this week. They also alter Google results so they can either promote their own sites or sell traffic to advertisers for profit. So to think they are 'only' tracking your IP/Mac address, think again...

dhimes 14y ago
I'm not following- how do they get paid?
- Matsta 14y ago
  Well basically it's almost a pyramid scheme. These companies will go and promote another crapware company and get commission off that. So basically it's like a giant loop. Or they will sell the data they have harvested such as your personal details (email/full name/date of birth/location) to a 3rd party.
  - dhimes 14y ago
    Ok, so if I understand this: with the fb/twitter stuff, they are intercepting your private data and selling it. With Google adverts they are removing them and inserting their own (and their own ppc sales, I presume). And with the Google results companies pay them to alter the organic search results and place their link higher. Wow.

Aardwolf 14y ago

This is the reason why I don't understand that people say that Linux is for "technical" users while Windows is for regular consumers. In Linux it's easier to install something that in Windows. E.g. to install a CD to MP3 rip program, in Archlinux all you do is: # Search for some mp3 ripper program pacman -Ss mp3 | grep rip # Install one of them from the list that looked ok from the description pacman -S ripperx In Windows, the steps are: Search the internet for rip mp3 Go through hundreds of spammy results Try to identify one that isn't crapware Download its installer Run its installer Be careful at every page of the installer that it isn't installing crap How can they say Linux is harder than Windows? I don't get it.

keyboardP 14y ago
How exactly is a regular customer going to know what to type and where? Many have trouble with a GUI, let alone a CLI. And Archlinux is just one of many distros and has its own idiosyncracies (e.g. "Pacman" isn't going to work on Ubuntu out the box). Installation of crapware has nothing to do with ease of installation, you've just purposefully made it seem drawn out. You could've just said Google "CD to MP3" and a few results down is a "how to" guide that uses the open-source CDex program - with a step by step guide.
- webreac 14y ago
  I am a linux user (linux mint cinnamon). When I need a new software, I launch the software manager, I type in the search criteria. This gives me a list of software. When I click a software, I have a list of users feedbacks and an install button. When I click install, it asks for my password and that is all. When I am on the command line and I type a command that is not installed, I get: jef@sweethome ~ $ 7z The program '7z' is currently not installed. You can install it by typing: sudo apt-get install p7zip-full I just need to do copy paste and type in my password. Sometimes, the software is not in the repository (for example xbmc), but the commands to type, or the installer to launch are clearly indicated on the site. I was a windows user, software installation (and removal) is a lot easier now.
  - 14y ago

patio11 14y ago

So when earlier it was mentioned, I assumed "They have to have a different angle on this; they're a YC company." And seeing a strong thread title and no evidence for it other than "The industry they're in is ridiculously seedy", I thought maybe HN was in rush to judgement mode. So I thought I'd try, you know, installing something. Make your own call: http://images1.bingocardcreator.com/blog-images/hn/its-not-a-witchhunt-if-they-are-actually-witches.png http://images1.bingocardcreator.com/blog-images/hn/its-not-a...

sjwright 14y ago
My favourite part is how, by default, it won't even save your old settings for un-installation. Nice.
dudurocha 14y ago
It makes me a little sad when I remember what pg aways say to startups. Make something users love. Not this time, though...
- aegiso 14y ago
  The users aren't the people installing the software. The users are the clowns writing the software that is so horrible it needs to pay for installs. And those users will love this new attack vector backed by some of the most respected folk in Silicon Valley.
kvnn 14y ago
"They have to have a different angle on this; they're a YC company." Why do you think they would have a different angle if they are a YC company?
- Tyrannosaurs 14y ago
  I don't think there's an implication that a YC company would be more moral, just that they'd be doing something a little more interesting or subtle than the same old crap sleaze balls have been pulling for years now. It's like finding that someone has got through the YC selection process based on a business model which involves putting "sex, horny, porn" in the title of each page on their website.

pioul 14y ago

Would be interesting to get a statement from PG on that one, at least to explain what's so great about this company.

tomasien 14y ago
He's investigating now
- lwat 14y ago
  Wouldn't he investigate BEFORE investing in such a dodgy, scammy looking company?

herf 14y ago

This is also why the "unbundling" of Windows turned out so badly for consumers. Not having a decent mail app or video/photos app by default (like the Mac) means people have to navigate this crap to get the most basic things done. We (f.lux) have a similar experience to VLC: tons of cloned installers and inbound emails for a free product.

gyardley 14y ago

These founders need to be very, very careful. Business-to-business services that are disliked by the public and involve any type of tracking or analytics aren't just class-action-lawsuit bait, they're ambitious-prosecutor bait. All they need is enough bad PR, which it looks like they're in the process of getting, to make the predators aware of the prey. Judging from reactions here, they're not going to get much community support when the legal backlash inevitably happens, either.

joelthelion 14y ago
Don't worry, ambitious prosecutors are busy enough with innocent activists.

aegiso 14y ago

I cling to the hope that there's something I'm not seeing here, but I fear that might not be the case. All I see is a business model that on top of being reprehensible, is completely out of whack with the times, and even if successful promises to cannibalize itself out of existence by destroying any remnant of faith that Windows user still have in the Wild West of freely downloadable native Windows apps. Please, let not today be remembered as the day that YC jumped the shark.

languagehacker 14y ago

You don't honestly expect me to read an entire article written by someone who would use a "sarcasm mark" -- do you?

Shorel 14y ago

It's just another Softonic. That's not 'the future'. Just the annoying present.

89a 14y ago

wouldn't be windows without the chance of catching computer aids every time you open an installer

jgmmo 14y ago

As a malware researcher, and the person who writes anti-virus definitions, I can proudly say that I wrote some rules to deal with Adware.InstallMonetizer just yesterday. Most other vendors seem to be detecting it as well.

biot 14y ago

When it launched OpenCandy did this and all installs were opt-in only: http://news.cnet.com/8301-17939_109-10094314-2.html http://news.cnet.com/8301-17939_109-10094314-2.html I'm not sure if that's changed in the meantime, but I recall it being a refreshing change from every other system which defaulted to automatically installing additional software rather than the user specifically having to choose to opt-in.

mratzloff 14y ago
OpenCandy is basically the only credible operator in this space.

namdnay 14y ago

These guys are so scammy, their website is blocked at my office: "Malicious Sources;Scam/Questionable/Illegal"...

joering2 14y ago

Why not? PG is about to make killing on AirBnB and co-founder is a well-known spammer from top-100 FBI list [1] that used our tax money to send his spam, and AirBnB been known for spam practices contacting people from Craigslist [2] to crank-start their startup with empty database. Further, AFAIK his SocialCam is worth tons of money as well, mostly thanks to Facebook overspamming practices [3] Truly surprised PG is not full time in spam business; he would make triple killing! :) HN moderators: its OK to downvote if the truth feels uncomfortable to you. EDIT: Since this is getting strongly upvoted; here are the links: [1] http://gawker.com/5853754/the-seedy-spammy-past-of-airbnbs-co+founder http://gawker.com/5853754/the-seedy-spammy-past-of-airbnbs-c... [2] http://www.tnooz.com/2011/06/01/news/airbnb-admits-rogue-sales-team-used-craigslist-for-stealthy-property-drive/ http://www.tnooz.com/2011/06/01/news/airbnb-admits-rogue-sal... [3] http://www.pcmike.com/what-im-thinkin/beware-of-socialcam http://www.pcmike.com/what-im-thinkin/beware-of-socialcam

jiggy2011 14y ago
Ironically enough, IIRC PG was one of pioneers of spam filtering.
- jeremyjh 14y ago
  Yes he wrote the algorithm used in Spambayes.
- Paul_S 14y ago
  And Peter Detkin coined the term patent troll and now runs a company that's one of the worlds biggest patent trolls. Irony? Or just people being willing to do anything for money. There are worse motivations.
  - dexterchief 14y ago
    There emphatically is not a worse motivation that being willing to do anything for money. Do something to ensure there is a little less tragedy in the commons. Please.

j_s 14y ago

I want to see the pitch deck that got these guys into YC

tyang 14y ago

The future is now, apparently.

songzme 14y ago

As a windows 8 user, I sort of expected that Windows would protect me from crapware bundles, especially since that was what destroyed my windows 7, vista, and all my previous windows experience. I guess not.

pg 14y ago

We're investigating. It will take at least a couple days, because we'll need to meet with the founders in person. FWIW, the install window Patrick overlaid on top of InstallMonetizer's site in that screenshot is not actually InstallMonetizer.

w1ntermute 14y ago
This is an important point, something that wasn't completely apparent from patio's screenshot. Babylon is a client of InstallMonetizer. Of course, if they were involved in creating that installer, then I'd say they are partially responsible.
deleted 14y ago
[deleted]
- cooldeal 14y ago
  I believe he means that he needs to discuss this issue in person and will need a physical meeting, not that he invested without meeting them.
  - madaxe 14y ago
    Ah crap, parse error, missed "with". Either way, strikes me as a dubious and reputationally dangerous model for YCombinator to get involved with.
    - thaumaturgy 14y ago
      YC funds enough founders now, with few enough partners, that it's entirely possible for someone to be doing something sneaky and YC wouldn't catch on right away. Initially, YC just has the business model / product description statement from the founders, a video (do they still do that?), an MVP if one exists, and maybe a meeting with the founders. The only way this could really negatively reflect on YC's integrity -- if that's up to us to judge anyway -- is if the accusations turn out to be true and YC either chooses not to investigate or chooses not to counsel the founders against doing something like this. (Remember, YC does not have a controlling interest in the teams.) Since pg has said they're checking in to it, I don't think "YC is turning evil" is a reasonable narrative here.

madaxe 14y ago

They're also guilty of apostrophe crime. Advertiser's. Please. Advertisers'. Quality.

tomasien 14y ago

Man people really are looking for an excuse to hate on PG. One of the 200 companies they've funded does something spammy and all of a sudden it's "YC this", "PG that". It's great to bring it to his attention, but these dudes are the ones building the spam engine, PG was just one of many investors in the company. We can't know how much of this he knew beforehand, but he says he's investigating, which isn't even the point. I'm sure PG was keen on investigating this without everyone pointing fingers at him like he made the decision to create this spamware.

SyneRyder 14y ago
InstallMonetizer were in the Winter 2012 YC batch (according to their site & TechCrunch), but they've been around since mid 2010. The YC folks had to know that installing toolbars was InstallMonetizer's business model... surely? I don't want to hate on YC, I was just very surprised to hear they'd invested in this company, and I'm interested to hear what their reasons were.

leeskye 14y ago

These guys raised eyebrows a couple years back on Joel Splosky's Business of Software blog: http://discuss.joelonsoftware.com/default.asp?biz.5.837817.10 http://discuss.joelonsoftware.com/default.asp?biz.5.837817.1...

mcgwiz 14y ago

These products exploit/capitalize on computer illiteracy. That's not something I would personally be proud of, but computer illiteracy is the real problem here. Products like this can ultimately accelerate the correction of computer illiteracy. That correction can come in the form of greater mainstream cultural impetus for computer literacy training, for operating system developerrs to prevent these types of actions (app stores of all platforms are decent at this), or by creating/expanding a market for products that intercept and neutralize this type of exploitation. The more efficient the means of exploiting computer illiteracy, the sooner the exploit is, in some way, neutralized.

JanneVee 14y ago
Why do you think the iPad sells so well?

p3d4nt 14y ago

They say it like its a bad thing...?

Suan 14y ago

I've been trying to think what is the root cause of this sad state of affairs on Windows. Attacking the scammers is not going to work since obviously their scams are profitable (and legal enough to get away with...) Is it (the lack of) education among users? I find it curious that when compared to financial products, where improving financial education is often brought up as a solution, there's a lot less mention of education when it comes to cases like these. Sadly this kind of "don't fall for these scams" computing education is not very transferrable to more productive uses of computing. In a free market, if users stop falling for this crap (admittedly a tall order on Windows) then the scammers will naturally go out of business.

spyder 14y ago

Are there any tools to block these installers for a computer illiterate user but still allow non-crapware installers?

hakaaak 14y ago

I absolutely despise crapware, google or ask toolbars, etc. that are bundled with installers, however if there is a market for it and there is no law against it, it will happen. And once Google/etc. one day has everyone's credit card info and charges us more often, I could totally see items starting to be added ala Vistaprint (if you've used Vistaprint you almost certainly know what I'm talking about) like magazine trial subscriptions, etc. The more the economy sinks and people are less willing to spend, the more crap will get dumped on us. Fact of life.

villardlee 14y ago

good