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Alberta to hold referendum on whether to remain in Canada

163 points by JumpCrisscross 6mo ago

vkou 6mo ago
And do what? There is no 'Albertan' national identity, like there is in Quebec, or Ukraine, or Taiwan or Ireland. You can't build an independent nation around something that is only wanted by a single political party, who have no fucking idea of how to include everyone who isn't a Tory on board with their project. Trace it back a bit, and you'll find that there's nothing to this that isn't driven by the Department of State.
- flyinglizard 6mo ago
  Can't avoid gloating over this one. Just like the Palestinian identity was created and weaponized against Israel by the Arab world, now Canadians will get a taste of their own medicine courtesy of the Trump admin.
  - elAhmo 6mo ago
    You got the sides wrong unfortunately, one of the states you are mentioning was literally created in the last century and is now doing the same thing that prompted its creation. But it must be nice living in ignorance and buying the propaganda.
  - vkou 6mo ago
    There's a minor difference. Whether Palestinians have a national identity or not, driving them out of their homes at gunpoint and settling in is a war crime. Albertans, while obviously the most disadvantaged and persecuted Canadians in recorded history, have not yet had anyone commiting genocide or war crimes against them.
    - 52-6F-62 6mo ago
      > Albertans, while obviously the most disadvantaged and persecuted Canadians in recorded history Um what?
      - tclancy 6mo ago
        (The author is complimenting us on our ability to recognize sarcasm in the wild, don't ruin it)
  - cumshitpiss 6mo ago
    [dead]
  - tclancy 6mo ago
    But why gloat? What are you winning? Even if there were prizes here (spoiler: all the loot boxes are empty in this game), do you perceive yourself better off because of this? >now Canadians will get a taste of their own medicine courtesy of the Trump admin. Ah so no, you're just in the higher end of the sinking canoe laughing at the people who are drowning.
- briga 6mo ago
  Albertan/Western Canadian identity is totally a thing, and has been around for a lot longer than this latest round of separatist sentiment. The west has been griping about unfair treatment from the federal government for over a century now, so 1) this isn't primarily driven by foreign interference and 2) it's not coming out of nowhere. Whether it's a good idea is a different question. I doubt most Albertans want to be independent. I also think being a landlocked country with a resource economy means that you will always be subject to outside control, whether that be parliament in Ottawa or corporate offices in Dallas. It remains unclear if being independent will solve the issue of Alberta being land-locked.
  - 52-6F-62 6mo ago
    Alberta was created out of several divisions of the NWT barely over 100 years ago, formed by the federal government of Canada. It's not a thing. Hatred or criticism of Toronto and Ontario at large is a thing. But that's a thing everywhere. It's a fundamental part of the Canadian identity.
    - briga 6mo ago
      If you don't think it's a thing then you're either not from here, or haven't been paying attention. The average Canadian's opinion of Alberta is also very telling, with most of the rest of the country seeming to despise the province, or think it's some sort of regressive backwater.
      - cwillu 6mo ago
        Meanwhile our Prime Minister was raised in Edmonton... No, it's not a thing.
        briga 6mo ago
        That doesn't make any sense, that's like saying because Trump was raised in New York and he's now president, that New York identity isn't a thing. I think the dismissive attitude here is proving my point.
- blululu 6mo ago
  Québécois separatism is also driven by a single party with no plan for what to do with all the other groups. I also don’t think that an independent Quebec would be a good idea, but they have leveraged the idea to get equalization payments and increased voting rights. These concessions largely come at the expense of Alberta, so it shouldn’t be hard to see why people would be frustrated without any cia operations.
  - amilios 6mo ago
    At least Quebec actually does have a distinct nation/culture/ethnicity/language.
- nonethewiser 6mo ago
  [flagged]
  - vkou 6mo ago
    Strange how that independent Albertan national identity consists of immediately begging to be annexed by the United States. It's almost like it's entirely driven by foreign influencers and their puppets.
zht 6mo ago
isn't this more about alberta to hold referendum on whether or not to hold a referendum on whether to remain in Canada
opjjf 6mo ago
Investigate and imprison the people who are pushing this because of money received from the US.
- baggy_trough 6mo ago
  For what crime?
  - ohyoutravel 6mo ago
    Treason
    - multiplegeorges 6mo ago
      Sedition, technically.
      - baggy_trough 6mo ago
        A referendum is neither of those.
  - ecshafer 6mo ago
    [flagged]
  - 52-6F-62 6mo ago
    [dead]
  - bawolff 6mo ago
    Allegedly they have taken money from americans or maybe russians. It is generally a crime to take foreign money as part of a political campaign.
- tclancy 6mo ago
  This is truly trolling escaping the Internet. It's by no means the first instance; "The future is already here—it's just not very evenly distributed". The best time to have started taking this seriously was probably October 2015 or something. The next best time is now. These performative fits by thoughtless Adult Children get backed by real money, for purposes mysterious to me, but they seem purposes dark enough it would be nice to have a working system that would investigate deeply and make illustrative examples out of the benefactors. Oh but for a working democracy or a healthy journalism, what might we find? Carve "Cui bono?" on my tombstone so when they plow the place over for tract housing to cram their useful fools into, maybe the rubble will catch a person's eye and make them wonder.
jszymborski 6mo ago
Important context, this referendum isn't binding, but rather a referendum on whether a binding referendum should be held. Separation is deeply unpopular, but Smith has been putting her thumb on the scale every step of the way, and this non-binding referendum isn't subject to the Clarity act in the same way that a subsequent binding one would be.
- arrowsmith 6mo ago
  I don't get it. They're having a referendum on whether or not to have a referendum? Why bother with two steps? I googled the Clarity Act and it appears to be recently-passed US (not Canadian) legislation about regulating cryptocurrencies or something. What's its relevance here? I am not Canadian and know nothing about Canadian politics. Someone please enlighten me.
  - rascul 6mo ago
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clarity_Act https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clarity_Act
  - wang_li 6mo ago
    Bill C-20 passed in 2000. It's not so much effort to type "canadian clarity act" into a search engine or wikipedia.
  - cf100clunk 6mo ago
    > I don't get it. They're having a referendum on whether or not to have a referendum? Exactly. Albertans are scratching their heads, wondering what on earth Premier Smith is trying to accomplish. Utterly ridiculous ''solution'' to some internal problems within her party, I'm guessing.
  - giarc 6mo ago
    It's a very complicated situation in Alberta. There were basically two competing petitions. A "Forever Canada" petition which supported Alberta staying in Canada, however it was built to force the provincial government to hold a vote in parliament about separation, therefore forcing all representatives to show their true feelings on separation. A second petition by "Stay Free Alberta" asked the government to hold a referendum on separating. However, it was blocked by a judge because a previously ruling basically said that separating would violate treaty rights of Indigenous peoples in Alberta. It's also fraught with controversy as the individuals running the petition were able to (likely illegally) obtain the voter rolls for every Albertan. They used it to build an online tool to track their progress. There is speculation (without evidence since the signatures on the petition is not public) that they simply used it to fill out the petition for people they knew. There are pieces of evidence that point to this being a possibility, for example, a Stay Free Alberta leader claimed that in some communities, nearly 98% of residents signed the petition. These are generally right leaning communities, however, getting 98% of people in a community to do a single thing would be incredibly hard.
elAhmo 6mo ago
Such a waste of time, money, media space, human hours on useless thing.
- nonethewiser 6mo ago
  This is part of Democracy.
  - steve_adams_86 6mo ago
    I want to agree, and I do in part, but I don’t believe Smith is a particularly democratic actor and there’s more happening here that shouldn’t occur in a democracy.
    - giarc 6mo ago
      She may just be happy that MHCare is out of the news. However, I'm not sure if this is any better.
  - 52-6F-62 6mo ago
    Smith and the UCP have not been acting democratically whatsoever. Trying to paint it that way is either ignorant or deliberately malicious. She was openly going around all standard democratic and diplomatic protocols and holding private meetings with the American executive in Florida. That is not part of democracy, unless you are simply calling it the corrupted part.
  - JumpCrisscross 6mo ago
    > This is part of Democracy It doesn’t need to be. 10% of the population being able to put major policies to a referendum is a bit silly.
    - dgellow 6mo ago
      Don’t look at our Swiss system, you won’t like what you see
rasgkl 6mo ago
U.S. wants more oil and pays influencers. Even if anyone is a legitimate Albertan separatist, voting in favor of it in this political climate is self-destructive.
- SecretDreams 6mo ago
  There's, sadly, been a significant uptick in self destructive voting tendencies for certain voting demographics as of late.
  - tokai 6mo ago
    Mainly UK and her former colonies.
    - deleted 6mo ago
      [deleted]
    - reaperducer 6mo ago
      Mainly UK and her former colonies. You might think this if the only language you can read is English.
zenethian 6mo ago
As a Minnesotan I would gladly trade Alberta for Minnesota and become Canadian.
- SecretDreams 6mo ago
  I think most of Canada (and probably America) would be okay with trading all the great lakes touching American states + the US west coast for Alberta.
  - janderson215 6mo ago
    That would be very interesting. I would love to see how that would play out (particularly with California and DC), but it would kill the political balance in both countries. I think having to consider opposing viewpoints is probably paramount to how we have both flourished historically.
  - cwillu 6mo ago
    Albertans are Canadians, and no, we're not going to condemn them to becoming americans or face dislocation over the actions of some loud idiots.
- cwillu 6mo ago
  While I appreciate the sentiment, that would be condemning a great many Albertans who want nothing to do with separation to a fate I would rather not see a fellow Canadian faced with.
  - bluefirebrand 6mo ago
    As long as Minnesota would have me I'd happily move there instead of staying in Alberta if this were to happen
- toephu2 6mo ago
  Along with the local Canadian salary it entails?
petcat 6mo ago
10% of the population produces nearly 20% of the country's GDP. That kind of lopsided representation is dangerous breeding ground for contempt, so this kind of thing is not really surprising. Will be interesting to see where it goes. Nobody thought there was any realistic chance of the UK leaving the EU either...
- 52-6F-62 6mo ago
  By that framing you are saying that Toronto, Montreal, and Vancouver should also all seek secession. Likewise, you could say that NYC and LA should singularly secede from America by that same logic. It doesn't track. There is no legal precedent. Alberta as an entity did not exist beyond Canada.
  - petcat 6mo ago
    > There is no legal precedent. Legal precedent doesn't really matter here. If Alberta wants to leave and they're willing to fight a war over it, then that's up to them. USA already went through this once.
    - cf100clunk 6mo ago
      Since you are comparing Canada and the U.S.A., let's look at some popular phrasing from each's Constitutions: U.S.A. ''life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness'' Canada ''peace, order, and good government'' Those are fundamental to the identity of each nation's people. Are they core beliefs of the majority of their citizens? Probably. Are Canadians ready to fight a civil war over Alberta separatism? Not at this point, even slightly.
  - chaostheory 6mo ago
    Canada is a confederation/confederacy. Ie your central government is weak and your provinces are strong. They can leave just like Quebec. Quebec has to be bribed to stay.
    - 52-6F-62 6mo ago
athrowaway3z 6mo ago
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NXafC7tlqt0 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NXafC7tlqt0 TLDW: There are some Dutch guys hiring Americans to pretend to be Canadians to put out YouTube slop videos to make money via AdSense on the political-idiot-doomer niche on YouTube (and at least 1 is selling a "make quick money" guide to the scheme). Whether they're just a grifting pyramid or if there are other sources of income driving it is not made clear. Though they insist its entertainment and not paid-for political motivated content (note had they admitted that they'd be in breach of various laws and ToS')
- justaguyonline 6mo ago
  This is the phenomenon originally named "fake news" in the US during the 2016 elections. As in the comments that YouTube exposé you linked, despite what the evidence in the original investigations showed there were lots of accusations that this stuff was part of coordinated influence campaigns from outside countries. Threatened by this, Trump used the phrase against his criticism: labeling that the real fake news and any deeper discussion on it dropped from US politics. The real issue is that these platforms have commoditized rumor in a way that gets around our cultural taboos about the practice.
LurkandComment 6mo ago
Related: Alberta Voter Data was leaked to an American Company by the separatist movement. Also, the question right now is if there will be a referendum proposal. https://www.nationalobserver.com/2026/05/20/investigations/alberta-voter-data-10x-votes-centurion-project https://www.nationalobserver.com/2026/05/20/investigations/a... This is clear foriegn political interfierence. It's like mini-brexit. We have a weak, incompitent leader in Alberta who is giving in to her right-wing base so she can stay in power. It's David Cameron all over again.
- nonethewiser 6mo ago
  Mini brexit? A province seceding from Canada is way bigger than the UK leaving the EU.
  - JumpCrisscross 6mo ago
    > A province seceding from Canada is way bigger than the UK leaving the EU Genuinely debatable. The total economic destruction of Brexit has been far higher than anything Alberta would suffer. And geopolitically, Alberta wouldn’t take itself off the table the way the English have basically rendered the UK irrelevant.
    - GardenLetter27 6mo ago
      What? The UK is doing better economically than Germany right now. And better than anywhere in Europe for Tech with Deepmind and Ineffable Intelligence there. It still shares many of the same mistakes as Europe though - e.g. now having to buy Russian oil and gas again instead of using the North Sea oil, not expanding nuclear power, rampant welfare and council housing corruption, etc.
      - ben_w 6mo ago
        > What? The UK is doing better economically than Germany right now. By *near-instantaneous* (this year or this quarter) growth perhaps, but Brexit was a while ago and the 10-year growth was about 36.8% for Germany and about 25.1% for the UK: https://www.wolframalpha.com/input?i=germany+gdp+2025%2Fgermany+gdp+2015%2C+uk+gdp+2025%2Fuk+gdp+2015 https://www.wolframalpha.com/input?i=germany+gdp+2025%2Fgerm... (That said, how each nation handled the pandemic is a massive confounding variable). Germany is currently ahead by 1.2 trillion per year for nominal GDP, 1.7 trillion by PPP GDP, and also ahead on both nominal per capita and PPP per capita. I agree there are some shared weaknesses, but oil and gas are now short-term thinking, and energy policy wasn't helped by (nor, fortunately, hurt by) Brexit. AI, much as I like using it, I'm not at all clear who is going to get left holding the bag, in each of the various scenarios from "it's a bubble" to "and now we're post-scarcity" and everything between.
canadiantim 6mo ago
If you want to understand why Alberta is holding a referendum on whether they should hold another separate legally-binding referendum in the future, you have to look at the recent court case where a judge in Alberta ruled that one of the two main petitions wasn’t allowed to proceed (The one that specifically called for a legally-binding referendum). The judges stated reason is that First Nations were not adequately consulted (interesting how this never came up in the Quebec referendums). As a result, the premier of Alberta suggested that until they appeal that court case that they cannot have a legally binding referendum. As such, for now, all they cannot do is a non-legally binding referendum on whether they should hold a legally binding referendum once they court case becomes resolved.
- arrowsmith 6mo ago
  Why not just wait until the court case is resolved?
  - danilocesar 6mo ago
    It might take years. Once it's solved, Smith, Trump and the americans financing this BS might be gone.
- vkou 6mo ago
  95% of Alberta is unceded First Nations land. It is not a valid country without it - without the consent of the relevant First Nations, a separated Alberta would be a few municipalities enveloped by... Canada. This is not a concern in Quebec, because the overwhelming majority of it is ceded land. If ducks had two wheels, they'd be bicycles, and if there was anything in common between the two provinces, you might have a point.
  - cf100clunk 6mo ago
    As far as I know, First Nations lands in Alberta are indeed ''ceded'' under Treaties 6, 7, and 8 with the Crown. British Columbia is a province with a huge proportion of unceded land, but not Alberta.
swordlucky666 6mo ago
[flagged]
armenarmen 6mo ago
I met a Québécois woman years ago that said their own independence movement was shut down in part because of new immigrants to Canada not wanting to leave the commonwealth. No clue if that’s right or not. But given how much of a cash cow the western provinces are for Canada, and the mega spike in immigration it makes me wonder
- dgellow 6mo ago
  Maybe look for information instead of sharing uninformed opinions on a random anecdote?
- nonethewiser 6mo ago
  Thats not hard to believe. An immigrant wouldnt be a part of some native separatist movement.
- croes 6mo ago
  Blaming immigrants … never gets old, does it?
  - boelboel 6mo ago
    The part about immigration and Quebec is right though, doesn't mean the immigrants are to blame.
  - armenarmen 6mo ago
    Fwiw my only familial connection to Canada is my Levantine immigrant cousins in Quebec
- cwillu 6mo ago
  Net federal tax by province for 2024: East: ON: 92,392M QC: 43,549M NS: 4,464M NB: 5,167M NL: 2,467M PE: 680M West: BC: 33,037M AB: 29,900M SK: 5,579M MB: 5,745M North: NT: 273M NU: 162M YT: 254M To call the west a “cash cow” is just a bit misleading, even if you grant the separatists British Columbia, which is frankly a laughable notion.
ecshafer 6mo ago
[flagged]
- multiplegeorges 6mo ago
  > blocking a referendum because they didn't consult indigenous groups The requirement to do so is in our constitution, the Charter. It's not optional and not absurd to anyone with proper historical understanding of Canadian history.
  - dragon-hn 6mo ago
    Americans may have trouble understanding that the constitution means something given what is going on there right now.
- henry2023 6mo ago
  Either this is sarcasm or you’re not old enough to use Internet.
rdtsc 6mo ago
With all the turmoil in US and other parts of the world I was completely unaware Albertans want to leave. > Smith acknowledged some of those concerns on Thursday, arguing that the federal government has tried to "move towards a more centralised American-style system" and is infringing on provincial jurisdiction. Ah interesting. I always thought US is rather decentralized with each state with its own government and laws and such. But I guess that's when compared with individual European countries, not Canada. Then, I wonder if they would like to still have a king https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monarchy_of_Canada https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monarchy_of_Canada as a new country, or would they drop that as well? If they want to drop that, that faction could lean into the current US current protest movement and put up "No Kings" signs and hold rallies and such. It would be good enough for a chuckle at least.
- cwillu 6mo ago
  Some Albertans.
  - SketchySeaBeast 6mo ago
    Few Albertans. The Forever Canada petition got over 10% of the entire population to sign it. Considering that it was a grassroots effort and that you had to sign in person, meaning you had to go out of your way to sign an entirely optional petition, really shows how much support there is in Alberta to remain.
    - cf100clunk 6mo ago
      I've put up some basic numbers in another comment that foreshadow what a futile exercise this is likely to be for the separatists.
      - Henchman21 6mo ago
        If they force their opponent to chew through all their available resources leaving them unable to respond in other areas, was it really futile?
ChrisArchitect 6mo ago
Misleading: not a direct referendum but a ballot question in the upcoming election on whether the government and entities should pursue the process to separate.
cf100clunk 6mo ago
Some numbers to consider: ~465,000 legally verified signatories to the federalist petition to declare Alberta permanently part of Canada ~360,000 status First Nations persons within Alberta ~330,000 legally unverified signatories to the separatist petition to hold a referendum to separate from Canada First Nations have successfully argued in court that as consultations with them are required by the Canadian Constitution, no such consultations had even been suggested by separatists. Apart from the fact that the Alberta population is ~4 million, it is difficult to see how separatists can figure they'd win a referendum to separate.
- mmastrac 6mo ago
  It's clear it's a pandering to the provincial government base, and has zero legitimacy. This all stems from a boneheaded move to unify the right in Alberta to prevent another NDP leadership term - that term being something that actually did our province some good. We've unfortunately been putting up with these leaders doing this sort of thing too long and let the rural part of this province dictate far too much. FWIW, I even bought myself a membership to try and do at least a small part to prevent this a decade ago, but that was impossible. People have truely lost their minds here and it's bizarre to talk to people that were once rational.
  - philistine 6mo ago
    It’s the British Tories’ Brexit playbook to a T. Remember that David Cameron was cold on Europe, but opposed to leaving the EU yet insisted on having a referendum to stop the far right from stealing his voters. It was the ok I’ll ask you to stop the discussion once and for all. It’s a plan that Cameron completely bungled, ruining his personal reputation, his party’s, and his country’s. I dread the consequences for the average Albertan if this goes south.
    - jleyank 6mo ago
      Well, if Alberta separates, the federal opposition evaporates. The opposition leader can run for Alberta pm. And Canada might never have a Conservative government again. Alberta has no coast, so exporting or importing goes by air or via Canada or the us. And when oil prices return to normal, they suffer big income losses.
cf100clunk 6mo ago
A related issue is whether, or to what extent, a seceded entity can itself be subject to secession. This concern came up in Quebec when Cree and other groups suggested they'd drop out of post-separation Quebec and ''rejoin'' Canada. Quebec separatists were outraged at the thought of First Nations and pro-Federalist geographical areas turning their new entity into ''Swiss cheese''. It is highly likely that Alberta separatists would face the same challenges and take an equally dim view.
- madcaptenor 6mo ago
  Another case: when Brexit happened, IIRC some people in Scotland were suggesting secession from the UK post-Brexit so they could rejoin the EU.
  - kevin_thibedeau 6mo ago
    That is still in play as the failure of Brexit solidifies. They can follow the lead of Ireland and the arrangements for the land crossing with N.I.
    - joe_mamba 6mo ago
      >That is still in play as the failure of Brexit solidifies. To be fair, the failure is on the UK governance itself, not on Brexit. Other major EU economies like France and Germany have seen similar economic trajectories since 2020 as the post-Brexit UK, despite them still being in the EU. The post-2020 Covid and Ukraine crisis are difficult to isolate from Brexit to know if it's just Brexit alone or the world economic situation fucking everyone regardless since then. Sure, Brexit probably didn't help, but looking at where Germany is now, I feel like UK handled the cold-turkey exit from the union far better than anyone expected.
      - Aachen 6mo ago
        Sure, the country didn't go back to be a developing nation, but "similar economic trajectories" leaves a lot of margin for how much better or worse it could have been. Purely economically, about 2-5% of GDP growth seems to have been left on the table, and in terms of human cost it's really hard to say anything positive about closing international borders between similar and allied countries
mmastrac 6mo ago
As an Albertan, I'm embarrassed that this is the image we project to the world, and sad that our punishment for collusion with foreign enemies isn't stronger or better enforced. One of the "separatist" leaders is hiding from the law in Texas. He can stay there. If there was any legitimacy in this process, the petition that got 150% of the votes in less time would have been addressed first rather than this sham, likely fake one, run by bad actors provably funded by foreign entities.
- flossly 6mo ago
  As an outsider I like this idea of being able to vote yourself out. This is the ultimate test of a democracy, imho, that you can leave it democratically (by vote and not by force). We've seen some interesting cases of this, in Spain and in the Donbas of the last years. I think the outcome of people voting against it is a great outcome. You have the freedom. You paid for the vote (its expensive) and "they" did not win. Hurray for unity at the highest level.
  - kimos 6mo ago
    The issue here is that Canada belongs to all Canadians. A portion of voters in one province can’t just vote to help themselves to the territory of Canada.
  - mmastrac 6mo ago
    You realize that this is the perfect way for foreign influence to destabilize western society, right? Democracy hasn't been hardened against social media and I'd prefer not to be another failed experiment like Brexit where we allow for foreign money to intentionally damage society.
    - belval 6mo ago
      Maybe, but I have trouble with the framing. Referendum votes are >50%. If a foreign nation can get >50% of the Albertans to agree to something, that's still democracy. Yes it feels wrong for the US to be giving money to influencers to influence the vote, but it's not like those voters are being coerced. In their opinion, Alberta would be better as a separate country. Whether that opinion is enlightened or not has no bearing on it being democratic or not.
rirze 6mo ago
Incoming Canadian Civil War?
- spiderfarmer 6mo ago
  No.
- dismalaf 6mo ago
  No. It's pretty clear that the Liberals have achieved dynasty status, only 25% of Canadians are net taxpayers, the rest live partially or fully on handouts, or are government employees whose income comes from taxes in the first place. Most Canadians who are upset with the status quo are leaving or have already left. Last year saw a record amount of Canadians move to the US.
- M95D 6mo ago
  No, they're civilized.
- rirze 6mo ago
  Jeez, the number of replies taking this as a knock on current political divide is saddening. If anyone remembers middle school history, the American civil war was ignited by the North refusing to accept Southern secession. Should've made it more obvious, I guess.
annagio_ 6mo ago
I saw the cbc about that video, and the guy said that even if they finally vote to leave, they will have tons of conversations with Canada regarding currency, laws etc. + other provinces have a say on this. It looks like it's not that easy.
slopinthebag 6mo ago
What I find interesting as a neutral observer is how people's views are often based on their own personal opinions about the country and region, and not the principles of democracy and the human right of self-determination. It seems like, if you like the country then you are a federalist and the separatists are traitors, anti-democratic, etc. If you don't like the country, the separatists are freedom fighters, and it's the federalists who are anti-democratic. I guess this makes sense, since the traitor/seditionist and freedom-fighter/revolutionary labels are entirely dependant on your affiliation with the associated country. But a lot of Americans have strong negative reactions to this idea, or the idea of Brexit, but almost certainly support their own founding fathers who were likewise traitors to the British Empire.
chaostheory 6mo ago
If Trump didn’t threaten annexation of Canada, this would have a much higher probability of success. It would also likely lead to Alberta becoming the 51st state
- 8note 6mo ago
  it would also have a much lower chance of being put on the table. the separatists are the people that heard trump say that, and said YES PLEASE
  - chaostheory 6mo ago
    Disagree. For decades, Alberta has been subsidizing Quebec and other no productive provinces. They’re sick of it. It also doesn’t help that Canada is a confederacy where the provincial governors have more power than your PM.
bawolff 6mo ago
As an albertan this feels like desperate pandering to a tiny vocal minority to distract from real issues. Almost nobody wants this.
- brightball 6mo ago
  A vote should end up showing that to be the case at least.
  - jpalawaga 6mo ago
    maybe in the same way that we have to keep voting on awful privacy legislation
  - matthewdgreen 6mo ago
    That's what they said about Brexit. 52% of the population voted yes in a single election, and the rest got dragged along for a multi-year ride. Current polls put support for the decision at 31%, but it's too late.
    - iso1631 6mo ago
      About a quarter voted yes, about a quarter voted no, about a quarter didn't vote and a quarter couldn't vote
      - bonesss 6mo ago
        Rationally, and unlike what that dirty old lady in The Holy Grail suggests, binding votes impacting foreign relations should happen on a single 50.01% vote and never ratified or verified. More rationally, if some 25% of the country can’t express themselves and another 25% are unsure/uncommitted one should assume their interests are best represented by the most invigorated and unified minority. I wish I could drop an ‘/s’, but, uh, ‘/no-really-thats-this-timeline’.
    - Aachen 6mo ago
      > 52% of the population voted yes Huh? 37% of the eligible voters, much less the population, voted yes according to https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2016_United_Kingdom_European_Union_membership_referendum https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2016_United_Kingdom_European_U...
harwoodr 6mo ago
It has been my experience that people always seem to want simple solutions to complex problems. The result is that the details of how complex those problems are get ignored or their impact is represented in a diminished way. In this case currency, debt, indigenous rights/claims and existing legislation are some examples of what is being glossed over and ignored.
- lm411 6mo ago
  Of these, I really only see "indigenous rights/claims" as a particularly difficult issue. For currency, The Maldives, with a relatively small population and tiny GDP has their own currency. What is the difficulty in currency? Ignoring the fact that AB would probably just use the greenback. All of these of these issues are surmountable.
  - harwoodr 6mo ago
    I'll give you that currency isn't a huge issue. From what I recall, Quebec wanted to continue using the Canadian dollar if they separated. If they opted to go with the USD, they'd have to trade all their CAD - which will undoubtedly take a huge hit if they separated. I still think that separatists would say that Alberta doesn't have to deal with a share of the debt and that would be a sticking point.
  - ctrl-alt-zen 6mo ago
    By glossing over all the details as “surmountable” you are illustrating how easy it is to ignore critical complexity. Debt includes concepts like “what does independent Alberta actually own or have to go into debt to purchase if major assets within its borders are literally Canadian federal property or connected to existing treaty rights?” This answer makes or breaks the entire proposal and does not have an easy or obvious solution.
    - lm411 6mo ago
      Surmountable - "possible to deal with or solve successfully". Does not mean "easy". It means they can be overcome.
privacyispower 6mo ago
Its mainly urbanites vs the rest of the province which is a pretty standard pattern in Canada. The eastern part of BC would want to join AB in leaving but that topic is totaly squashed in BC public discourse and media. Privately is a different story. It's like the eastern part of Oregon and their relationship to Portland as a good US comparable.
d_burfoot 6mo ago
Many commenters seem to be appealing to an almost religious defense of present political borders. That attitude is untenable: there is nothing sacred about national boundaries, they are mere political artifacts like rules, regulations, tax codes, etc. If the people want to change them, they absolutely have the right to do so. https://unifixion.substack.com/p/political-boundaries-are-not-sacred https://unifixion.substack.com/p/political-boundaries-are-no...
- PearlRiver 6mo ago
  Lincoln disagreed. The good man even had the balls to let loose Sherman.
- the_gipsy 6mo ago
  But the meaning of "people want" is very delicately depending on the geographical area and moment in time.
  - qball 6mo ago
    Yes, and here "Canadians want" is used to say "the people within 100km of the St. Lawrence want". (That's actually part of the problem.) Claimed identity isn't a suicide pact and consent of the governed isn't equally geographically distributed. AB sees, correctly, an inordinate amount of tax per capita go out for the privilege of policies intended to kneecap that region's development. The justifications for those policies (whether you agree with them or not) matter less than the fact they're being imposed from a condition of moral hazard. Hence, the people of AB might vote to ban the people of ON/QC from imposing their laws; that's what separation is and why it happens.
    - transcriptase 6mo ago
      > AB sees, correctly, an inordinate amount of tax per capita go out for the privilege of policies intended to kneecap that region's development. Not only that, but the Feds typically use their outsized tax revenue from Alberta to “invest” in Quebec to buy votes via propping up unviable businesses, subsidies, outsized proportion of public sector jobs, and federal spending in general.
motohagiography 6mo ago
Some modern precedents for countries established by peaceful legal secession include: - Singapore (Malaysia) 1965 - Montenegro (Serbia) 2006 - Czech Republic (Czechoslovakia) 1993 - Iceland (Denmark) 1944 However, these are rare as most secession events are violent. Establishing a new country typically requires a revolution, and there is more support for that broadly in Canada for various reasons than any single province. The Alberta referendum is a polite signal and a test. The boomer generation and it's broadly left politics is dying off, meaning that the LPC and NDP need to replenish their electoral support to stay in power. It is uncontroversial that they have been doing this using radical immigration policies and throwing money away, particularly via the abuse of definitions of "temporary," and "asylum." Political interference by both India (exporting their independence problem) and China (creating a resource vassal) is undeniable at this point. Canadians with a stake in the country are quite reasonably concerned that their society is being demolished and replaced. Will they revolt, and could it succeed? It depends on whether they get US sponsorship or not. The more interesting question than the Alberta theater is whether Canada revolts and establishes a republic, or whether it gets annexed by the US or the EU. Alberta is just a canary for these other scenarios, imo.
- thunderfork 6mo ago
  >uncontroversial, quite reasonably Buddy, patting yourself on the back this much gives away the game
  - motohagiography 6mo ago
    it's gov's own data and stated policies. discourse or gtfo.
    - thunderfork 6mo ago
      i think "source or gtfo" is a fair response to this claim stated in this way
      - motohagiography 6mo ago
fred_is_fred 6mo ago
If they secede the US can go help them with democracy. They do have oil.
BiraIgnacio 6mo ago
The referendum is actually about having a referendum first. "Alberta to hold fall referendum on whether to have binding referendum on separating from Canada" https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/edmonton/alberta-separation-referendum-televised-address-9.7208162 https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/edmonton/alberta-separation-r...
- userbinator 6mo ago
  Classic bureaucracy.
  - patcon 6mo ago
    No, it would be a waste to spend countless millions (nevermind the human capital of "attention") on the campaigning, without first validating that a true quorom of people even want to think about this, rather than a very vocal minority. It's a governance equivalent of saying "step up or shut up", and it's not stupid or wasteful You're too eager to label legit "governance" as bureaucracy imho
- card_zero 6mo ago
  New Caledonia have been hesitating about independence the longest. In a referendum in 1958, they voted against independence from France. In 1987, they again voted against independence. In 1988, they voted to hold a referendum about independence in 1998. In 1998, they didn't hold that referendum, but instead voted their approval of a 20-year plan to transition to increased autonomy. In 2018, they voted against independence. In 2020, they voted against independence. In 2021, they voted against independence. In 2024, they had a crisis over disagreements about the rules about voting about independence.
- illiac786 6mo ago
  That made me laugh actually. What a good way of wasting taxpayers money and make people laugh at the same time. More seriously: Why?
  - Sprocklem 6mo ago
OgsyedIE 6mo ago
An independent Alberta would face the Dutch disease effect crashing the employment figures, wages and viability of everything except oil and gas. At least a 10% jump in unemployment in two years. 51st state with the USD absorbing the excess productivity however? It comes down to the negotiations. Right now, huge Albertan budget surpluses get sent to Ottawa to be spent outside of Alberta (largely as a carrot to inhibit other independence movements), which is what motivates the Albertan independence movement. Any Albertans would hope the US to be more egalitarian. However, the US might put them over a barrel and make similar revenue flows a condition of joining, which would be the smart play for Washington (possibly with some tariff and travel restrictions sticks if they don't). If the 47 admin is bankrolling the content farms producing this independence movement (as Orban was the Daily Wire) then the US has all upsides. Canada fractured and easier to loot and Alberta entirely undefended from looting. Somehow, I expect that the only Canadians recognising this attack surface are a few bureaucrats too low down in Ottawa to get their voices out and that the parties will just try to fight the anti-independence tactics in the culture war moralising style of the now-departed Freeland, which is a decade out of date and powerless to sway the Albertans. . Generalising away from just Canada, one of the great weaknesses of liberal parties worldwide is electoralism. They cannot look at the electorate they have over their desire for the electorate they'd prefer they had. To paraphrase PG, if you don't ditch people who prefer being right to winning you'll deserve the outcome they produce for you.
- alistairSH 6mo ago
  Right now, huge Albertan budget surpluses get sent to Ottawa to be spent outside of Alberta (largely as a carrot to inhibit other independence movements), which is what motivates the Albertan independence movement. Any Albertans would hope the US to be more egalitarian. Is Alberta taxed at a higher rate than other provinces? Nothing in the top few hits on Google indicates this to be the case. And I'm not sure how the US would be different - all states pay the same federal income tax rates, whether that's individual or business income.
  - slopinthebag 6mo ago
    They're called "Equalisation payments". Certain provinces pay them, like BC, Alberta, and Ontario, and then other provinces receive them. In 2023, the federal government spent $24.0 billion including an estimated $3.3 billion from Alberta, which has not received equalization payments since 1964/65. From 2007 to 2022, Albertans’ net contribution to federal finances was $244.6 billion, more than five times the net contribution from British Columbia or Ontario, the only other two net contributors. Albertans’ also disproportionately contribute to the CPP. From 1981 to 2022, the amount Albertans paid into the program, over and above what retirees in Alberta received in CPP payments, was $53.6 billion, approximately six times greater than the net contribution of B.C., the only other net contributing province.
mvdtnz 6mo ago
> Still, opinion polls suggest that the majority of Albertans would vote against separating. This feels familiar.
mig39 6mo ago
Albertan here. I want to remain in Canada. I will leave Alberta if it separates. This is being driven by a vocal conspiracy-minded maple-MAGA base that got our current premiere her job. A majority of Albertans are against any talk of separation.
FatherOfCurses 6mo ago
I'd say "let them leave" if it didn't play into both the U.S. and Russia's desires. I'm sick of their whining.
wesleyd 6mo ago
I remember an interview with Margaret Atwood [0] in which she joked that while Quebec might vote to leave Canada, the first nations own the bit of Canada where all the hydroelectric power comes from, and _they_ won't want to secede. And wouldn't have to, because Canada has treaties with various First Nations that among other things require Canada to come to their aid if attacked. I wonder if the same thing might apply here. PS. The interviewer was Tyler Cowen, and [the transcript](https://conversationswithtyler.com/episodes/margaret-atwood/ https://conversationswithtyler.com/episodes/margaret-atwood/) says: ATWOOD: I think things will stay kind of the way they are. But think about this very carefully, as people did when it was a distinct possibility. You have Quebec there. The people to the north of Quebec are not French-speaking Quebecers. They’re indigenous people. And they said — and that’s where the hydroelectric power comes from, by the way — they said, “If you separate from Canada, we’re going to separate from you on the same grounds. Different language, older culture, etc.” And Quebec said, “Oh, no, you’re not.” And they said, “Oh, yes, we are. And by the way, we happen to have a treaty with Canada that says that if any foreign power invades us, they have to defend us.” So if Quebec separates, north of Quebec separates from Quebec, Quebec invades them, Canada invades. You see what I mean?
subscribed 6mo ago
That would totally be something paid of by Bannon/Trump, and ordered from Kremlin. No chance of succeeding, or st least incredibly slim, and the past success (Brexit), proves the country will slowly rip itself to pieces, weakening unity, engaging in tribalism and resentment. Cui Bono?

163 points by JumpCrisscross 6mo ago

vkou 6mo ago

And do what? There is no 'Albertan' national identity, like there is in Quebec, or Ukraine, or Taiwan or Ireland. You can't build an independent nation around something that is only wanted by a single political party, who have no fucking idea of how to include everyone who isn't a Tory on board with their project. Trace it back a bit, and you'll find that there's nothing to this that isn't driven by the Department of State.

flyinglizard 6mo ago
Can't avoid gloating over this one. Just like the Palestinian identity was created and weaponized against Israel by the Arab world, now Canadians will get a taste of their own medicine courtesy of the Trump admin.
- elAhmo 6mo ago
  You got the sides wrong unfortunately, one of the states you are mentioning was literally created in the last century and is now doing the same thing that prompted its creation. But it must be nice living in ignorance and buying the propaganda.
- vkou 6mo ago
  There's a minor difference. Whether Palestinians have a national identity or not, driving them out of their homes at gunpoint and settling in is a war crime. Albertans, while obviously the most disadvantaged and persecuted Canadians in recorded history, have not yet had anyone commiting genocide or war crimes against them.
  - 52-6F-62 6mo ago
    > Albertans, while obviously the most disadvantaged and persecuted Canadians in recorded history Um what?
    - tclancy 6mo ago
      (The author is complimenting us on our ability to recognize sarcasm in the wild, don't ruin it)
- cumshitpiss 6mo ago
  [dead]
- tclancy 6mo ago
  But why gloat? What are you winning? Even if there were prizes here (spoiler: all the loot boxes are empty in this game), do you perceive yourself better off because of this? >now Canadians will get a taste of their own medicine courtesy of the Trump admin. Ah so no, you're just in the higher end of the sinking canoe laughing at the people who are drowning.
briga 6mo ago
Albertan/Western Canadian identity is totally a thing, and has been around for a lot longer than this latest round of separatist sentiment. The west has been griping about unfair treatment from the federal government for over a century now, so 1) this isn't primarily driven by foreign interference and 2) it's not coming out of nowhere. Whether it's a good idea is a different question. I doubt most Albertans want to be independent. I also think being a landlocked country with a resource economy means that you will always be subject to outside control, whether that be parliament in Ottawa or corporate offices in Dallas. It remains unclear if being independent will solve the issue of Alberta being land-locked.
- 52-6F-62 6mo ago
  Alberta was created out of several divisions of the NWT barely over 100 years ago, formed by the federal government of Canada. It's not a thing. Hatred or criticism of Toronto and Ontario at large is a thing. But that's a thing everywhere. It's a fundamental part of the Canadian identity.
  - briga 6mo ago
    If you don't think it's a thing then you're either not from here, or haven't been paying attention. The average Canadian's opinion of Alberta is also very telling, with most of the rest of the country seeming to despise the province, or think it's some sort of regressive backwater.
    - cwillu 6mo ago
      Meanwhile our Prime Minister was raised in Edmonton... No, it's not a thing.
      - briga 6mo ago
        That doesn't make any sense, that's like saying because Trump was raised in New York and he's now president, that New York identity isn't a thing. I think the dismissive attitude here is proving my point.
blululu 6mo ago
Québécois separatism is also driven by a single party with no plan for what to do with all the other groups. I also don’t think that an independent Quebec would be a good idea, but they have leveraged the idea to get equalization payments and increased voting rights. These concessions largely come at the expense of Alberta, so it shouldn’t be hard to see why people would be frustrated without any cia operations.
- amilios 6mo ago
  At least Quebec actually does have a distinct nation/culture/ethnicity/language.
nonethewiser 6mo ago
[flagged]
- vkou 6mo ago
  Strange how that independent Albertan national identity consists of immediately begging to be annexed by the United States. It's almost like it's entirely driven by foreign influencers and their puppets.

zht 6mo ago

isn't this more about alberta to hold referendum on whether or not to hold a referendum on whether to remain in Canada

opjjf 6mo ago

Investigate and imprison the people who are pushing this because of money received from the US.

baggy_trough 6mo ago
For what crime?
- ohyoutravel 6mo ago
  Treason
  - multiplegeorges 6mo ago
    Sedition, technically.
    - baggy_trough 6mo ago
      A referendum is neither of those.
- ecshafer 6mo ago
  [flagged]
- 52-6F-62 6mo ago
  [dead]
- bawolff 6mo ago
  Allegedly they have taken money from americans or maybe russians. It is generally a crime to take foreign money as part of a political campaign.
tclancy 6mo ago
This is truly trolling escaping the Internet. It's by no means the first instance; "The future is already here—it's just not very evenly distributed". The best time to have started taking this seriously was probably October 2015 or something. The next best time is now. These performative fits by thoughtless Adult Children get backed by real money, for purposes mysterious to me, but they seem purposes dark enough it would be nice to have a working system that would investigate deeply and make illustrative examples out of the benefactors. Oh but for a working democracy or a healthy journalism, what might we find? Carve "Cui bono?" on my tombstone so when they plow the place over for tract housing to cram their useful fools into, maybe the rubble will catch a person's eye and make them wonder.

jszymborski 6mo ago

Important context, this referendum isn't binding, but rather a referendum on whether a binding referendum should be held. Separation is deeply unpopular, but Smith has been putting her thumb on the scale every step of the way, and this non-binding referendum isn't subject to the Clarity act in the same way that a subsequent binding one would be.

arrowsmith 6mo ago
I don't get it. They're having a referendum on whether or not to have a referendum? Why bother with two steps? I googled the Clarity Act and it appears to be recently-passed US (not Canadian) legislation about regulating cryptocurrencies or something. What's its relevance here? I am not Canadian and know nothing about Canadian politics. Someone please enlighten me.
- rascul 6mo ago
  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clarity_Act https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clarity_Act
- wang_li 6mo ago
  Bill C-20 passed in 2000. It's not so much effort to type "canadian clarity act" into a search engine or wikipedia.
- cf100clunk 6mo ago
  > I don't get it. They're having a referendum on whether or not to have a referendum? Exactly. Albertans are scratching their heads, wondering what on earth Premier Smith is trying to accomplish. Utterly ridiculous ''solution'' to some internal problems within her party, I'm guessing.
- giarc 6mo ago
  It's a very complicated situation in Alberta. There were basically two competing petitions. A "Forever Canada" petition which supported Alberta staying in Canada, however it was built to force the provincial government to hold a vote in parliament about separation, therefore forcing all representatives to show their true feelings on separation. A second petition by "Stay Free Alberta" asked the government to hold a referendum on separating. However, it was blocked by a judge because a previously ruling basically said that separating would violate treaty rights of Indigenous peoples in Alberta. It's also fraught with controversy as the individuals running the petition were able to (likely illegally) obtain the voter rolls for every Albertan. They used it to build an online tool to track their progress. There is speculation (without evidence since the signatures on the petition is not public) that they simply used it to fill out the petition for people they knew. There are pieces of evidence that point to this being a possibility, for example, a Stay Free Alberta leader claimed that in some communities, nearly 98% of residents signed the petition. These are generally right leaning communities, however, getting 98% of people in a community to do a single thing would be incredibly hard.

elAhmo 6mo ago

Such a waste of time, money, media space, human hours on useless thing.

nonethewiser 6mo ago
This is part of Democracy.
- steve_adams_86 6mo ago
  I want to agree, and I do in part, but I don’t believe Smith is a particularly democratic actor and there’s more happening here that shouldn’t occur in a democracy.
  - giarc 6mo ago
    She may just be happy that MHCare is out of the news. However, I'm not sure if this is any better.
- 52-6F-62 6mo ago
  Smith and the UCP have not been acting democratically whatsoever. Trying to paint it that way is either ignorant or deliberately malicious. She was openly going around all standard democratic and diplomatic protocols and holding private meetings with the American executive in Florida. That is not part of democracy, unless you are simply calling it the corrupted part.
- JumpCrisscross 6mo ago
  > This is part of Democracy It doesn’t need to be. 10% of the population being able to put major policies to a referendum is a bit silly.
  - dgellow 6mo ago
    Don’t look at our Swiss system, you won’t like what you see

rasgkl 6mo ago

U.S. wants more oil and pays influencers. Even if anyone is a legitimate Albertan separatist, voting in favor of it in this political climate is self-destructive.

SecretDreams 6mo ago
There's, sadly, been a significant uptick in self destructive voting tendencies for certain voting demographics as of late.
- tokai 6mo ago
  Mainly UK and her former colonies.
  - deleted 6mo ago
    [deleted]
  - reaperducer 6mo ago
    Mainly UK and her former colonies. You might think this if the only language you can read is English.

zenethian 6mo ago

As a Minnesotan I would gladly trade Alberta for Minnesota and become Canadian.

SecretDreams 6mo ago
I think most of Canada (and probably America) would be okay with trading all the great lakes touching American states + the US west coast for Alberta.
- janderson215 6mo ago
  That would be very interesting. I would love to see how that would play out (particularly with California and DC), but it would kill the political balance in both countries. I think having to consider opposing viewpoints is probably paramount to how we have both flourished historically.
- cwillu 6mo ago
  Albertans are Canadians, and no, we're not going to condemn them to becoming americans or face dislocation over the actions of some loud idiots.
cwillu 6mo ago
While I appreciate the sentiment, that would be condemning a great many Albertans who want nothing to do with separation to a fate I would rather not see a fellow Canadian faced with.
- bluefirebrand 6mo ago
  As long as Minnesota would have me I'd happily move there instead of staying in Alberta if this were to happen
toephu2 6mo ago
Along with the local Canadian salary it entails?

petcat 6mo ago

10% of the population produces nearly 20% of the country's GDP. That kind of lopsided representation is dangerous breeding ground for contempt, so this kind of thing is not really surprising. Will be interesting to see where it goes. Nobody thought there was any realistic chance of the UK leaving the EU either...

52-6F-62 6mo ago
By that framing you are saying that Toronto, Montreal, and Vancouver should also all seek secession. Likewise, you could say that NYC and LA should singularly secede from America by that same logic. It doesn't track. There is no legal precedent. Alberta as an entity did not exist beyond Canada.
- petcat 6mo ago
  > There is no legal precedent. Legal precedent doesn't really matter here. If Alberta wants to leave and they're willing to fight a war over it, then that's up to them. USA already went through this once.
  - cf100clunk 6mo ago
    Since you are comparing Canada and the U.S.A., let's look at some popular phrasing from each's Constitutions: U.S.A. ''life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness'' Canada ''peace, order, and good government'' Those are fundamental to the identity of each nation's people. Are they core beliefs of the majority of their citizens? Probably. Are Canadians ready to fight a civil war over Alberta separatism? Not at this point, even slightly.
- chaostheory 6mo ago
  Canada is a confederation/confederacy. Ie your central government is weak and your provinces are strong. They can leave just like Quebec. Quebec has to be bribed to stay.
  - 52-6F-62 6mo ago

athrowaway3z 6mo ago

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NXafC7tlqt0 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NXafC7tlqt0 TLDW: There are some Dutch guys hiring Americans to pretend to be Canadians to put out YouTube slop videos to make money via AdSense on the political-idiot-doomer niche on YouTube (and at least 1 is selling a "make quick money" guide to the scheme). Whether they're just a grifting pyramid or if there are other sources of income driving it is not made clear. Though they insist its entertainment and not paid-for political motivated content (note had they admitted that they'd be in breach of various laws and ToS')

justaguyonline 6mo ago
This is the phenomenon originally named "fake news" in the US during the 2016 elections. As in the comments that YouTube exposé you linked, despite what the evidence in the original investigations showed there were lots of accusations that this stuff was part of coordinated influence campaigns from outside countries. Threatened by this, Trump used the phrase against his criticism: labeling that the real fake news and any deeper discussion on it dropped from US politics. The real issue is that these platforms have commoditized rumor in a way that gets around our cultural taboos about the practice.

LurkandComment 6mo ago

Related: Alberta Voter Data was leaked to an American Company by the separatist movement. Also, the question right now is if there will be a referendum proposal. https://www.nationalobserver.com/2026/05/20/investigations/alberta-voter-data-10x-votes-centurion-project https://www.nationalobserver.com/2026/05/20/investigations/a... This is clear foriegn political interfierence. It's like mini-brexit. We have a weak, incompitent leader in Alberta who is giving in to her right-wing base so she can stay in power. It's David Cameron all over again.

nonethewiser 6mo ago
Mini brexit? A province seceding from Canada is way bigger than the UK leaving the EU.
- JumpCrisscross 6mo ago
  > A province seceding from Canada is way bigger than the UK leaving the EU Genuinely debatable. The total economic destruction of Brexit has been far higher than anything Alberta would suffer. And geopolitically, Alberta wouldn’t take itself off the table the way the English have basically rendered the UK irrelevant.
  - GardenLetter27 6mo ago
    What? The UK is doing better economically than Germany right now. And better than anywhere in Europe for Tech with Deepmind and Ineffable Intelligence there. It still shares many of the same mistakes as Europe though - e.g. now having to buy Russian oil and gas again instead of using the North Sea oil, not expanding nuclear power, rampant welfare and council housing corruption, etc.
    - ben_w 6mo ago
      > What? The UK is doing better economically than Germany right now. By *near-instantaneous* (this year or this quarter) growth perhaps, but Brexit was a while ago and the 10-year growth was about 36.8% for Germany and about 25.1% for the UK: https://www.wolframalpha.com/input?i=germany+gdp+2025%2Fgermany+gdp+2015%2C+uk+gdp+2025%2Fuk+gdp+2015 https://www.wolframalpha.com/input?i=germany+gdp+2025%2Fgerm... (That said, how each nation handled the pandemic is a massive confounding variable). Germany is currently ahead by 1.2 trillion per year for nominal GDP, 1.7 trillion by PPP GDP, and also ahead on both nominal per capita and PPP per capita. I agree there are some shared weaknesses, but oil and gas are now short-term thinking, and energy policy wasn't helped by (nor, fortunately, hurt by) Brexit. AI, much as I like using it, I'm not at all clear who is going to get left holding the bag, in each of the various scenarios from "it's a bubble" to "and now we're post-scarcity" and everything between.

canadiantim 6mo ago

If you want to understand why Alberta is holding a referendum on whether they should hold another separate legally-binding referendum in the future, you have to look at the recent court case where a judge in Alberta ruled that one of the two main petitions wasn’t allowed to proceed (The one that specifically called for a legally-binding referendum). The judges stated reason is that First Nations were not adequately consulted (interesting how this never came up in the Quebec referendums). As a result, the premier of Alberta suggested that until they appeal that court case that they cannot have a legally binding referendum. As such, for now, all they cannot do is a non-legally binding referendum on whether they should hold a legally binding referendum once they court case becomes resolved.

arrowsmith 6mo ago
Why not just wait until the court case is resolved?
- danilocesar 6mo ago
  It might take years. Once it's solved, Smith, Trump and the americans financing this BS might be gone.
vkou 6mo ago
95% of Alberta is unceded First Nations land. It is not a valid country without it - without the consent of the relevant First Nations, a separated Alberta would be a few municipalities enveloped by... Canada. This is not a concern in Quebec, because the overwhelming majority of it is ceded land. If ducks had two wheels, they'd be bicycles, and if there was anything in common between the two provinces, you might have a point.
- cf100clunk 6mo ago
  As far as I know, First Nations lands in Alberta are indeed ''ceded'' under Treaties 6, 7, and 8 with the Crown. British Columbia is a province with a huge proportion of unceded land, but not Alberta.

swordlucky666 6mo ago

[flagged]

armenarmen 6mo ago

I met a Québécois woman years ago that said their own independence movement was shut down in part because of new immigrants to Canada not wanting to leave the commonwealth. No clue if that’s right or not. But given how much of a cash cow the western provinces are for Canada, and the mega spike in immigration it makes me wonder

dgellow 6mo ago
Maybe look for information instead of sharing uninformed opinions on a random anecdote?
nonethewiser 6mo ago
Thats not hard to believe. An immigrant wouldnt be a part of some native separatist movement.
croes 6mo ago
Blaming immigrants … never gets old, does it?
- boelboel 6mo ago
  The part about immigration and Quebec is right though, doesn't mean the immigrants are to blame.
- armenarmen 6mo ago
  Fwiw my only familial connection to Canada is my Levantine immigrant cousins in Quebec
cwillu 6mo ago
Net federal tax by province for 2024: East: ON: 92,392M QC: 43,549M NS: 4,464M NB: 5,167M NL: 2,467M PE: 680M West: BC: 33,037M AB: 29,900M SK: 5,579M MB: 5,745M North: NT: 273M NU: 162M YT: 254M To call the west a “cash cow” is just a bit misleading, even if you grant the separatists British Columbia, which is frankly a laughable notion.

ecshafer 6mo ago

[flagged]

multiplegeorges 6mo ago
> blocking a referendum because they didn't consult indigenous groups The requirement to do so is in our constitution, the Charter. It's not optional and not absurd to anyone with proper historical understanding of Canadian history.
- dragon-hn 6mo ago
  Americans may have trouble understanding that the constitution means something given what is going on there right now.
henry2023 6mo ago
Either this is sarcasm or you’re not old enough to use Internet.

rdtsc 6mo ago

With all the turmoil in US and other parts of the world I was completely unaware Albertans want to leave. > Smith acknowledged some of those concerns on Thursday, arguing that the federal government has tried to "move towards a more centralised American-style system" and is infringing on provincial jurisdiction. Ah interesting. I always thought US is rather decentralized with each state with its own government and laws and such. But I guess that's when compared with individual European countries, not Canada. Then, I wonder if they would like to still have a king https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monarchy_of_Canada https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monarchy_of_Canada as a new country, or would they drop that as well? If they want to drop that, that faction could lean into the current US current protest movement and put up "No Kings" signs and hold rallies and such. It would be good enough for a chuckle at least.

cwillu 6mo ago
Some Albertans.
- SketchySeaBeast 6mo ago
  Few Albertans. The Forever Canada petition got over 10% of the entire population to sign it. Considering that it was a grassroots effort and that you had to sign in person, meaning you had to go out of your way to sign an entirely optional petition, really shows how much support there is in Alberta to remain.
  - cf100clunk 6mo ago
    I've put up some basic numbers in another comment that foreshadow what a futile exercise this is likely to be for the separatists.
    - Henchman21 6mo ago
      If they force their opponent to chew through all their available resources leaving them unable to respond in other areas, was it really futile?

ChrisArchitect 6mo ago

Misleading: not a direct referendum but a ballot question in the upcoming election on whether the government and entities should pursue the process to separate.

cf100clunk 6mo ago

Some numbers to consider: ~465,000 legally verified signatories to the federalist petition to declare Alberta permanently part of Canada ~360,000 status First Nations persons within Alberta ~330,000 legally unverified signatories to the separatist petition to hold a referendum to separate from Canada First Nations have successfully argued in court that as consultations with them are required by the Canadian Constitution, no such consultations had even been suggested by separatists. Apart from the fact that the Alberta population is ~4 million, it is difficult to see how separatists can figure they'd win a referendum to separate.

mmastrac 6mo ago
It's clear it's a pandering to the provincial government base, and has zero legitimacy. This all stems from a boneheaded move to unify the right in Alberta to prevent another NDP leadership term - that term being something that actually did our province some good. We've unfortunately been putting up with these leaders doing this sort of thing too long and let the rural part of this province dictate far too much. FWIW, I even bought myself a membership to try and do at least a small part to prevent this a decade ago, but that was impossible. People have truely lost their minds here and it's bizarre to talk to people that were once rational.
- philistine 6mo ago
  It’s the British Tories’ Brexit playbook to a T. Remember that David Cameron was cold on Europe, but opposed to leaving the EU yet insisted on having a referendum to stop the far right from stealing his voters. It was the ok I’ll ask you to stop the discussion once and for all. It’s a plan that Cameron completely bungled, ruining his personal reputation, his party’s, and his country’s. I dread the consequences for the average Albertan if this goes south.
  - jleyank 6mo ago
    Well, if Alberta separates, the federal opposition evaporates. The opposition leader can run for Alberta pm. And Canada might never have a Conservative government again. Alberta has no coast, so exporting or importing goes by air or via Canada or the us. And when oil prices return to normal, they suffer big income losses.

cf100clunk 6mo ago

A related issue is whether, or to what extent, a seceded entity can itself be subject to secession. This concern came up in Quebec when Cree and other groups suggested they'd drop out of post-separation Quebec and ''rejoin'' Canada. Quebec separatists were outraged at the thought of First Nations and pro-Federalist geographical areas turning their new entity into ''Swiss cheese''. It is highly likely that Alberta separatists would face the same challenges and take an equally dim view.

madcaptenor 6mo ago
Another case: when Brexit happened, IIRC some people in Scotland were suggesting secession from the UK post-Brexit so they could rejoin the EU.
- kevin_thibedeau 6mo ago
  That is still in play as the failure of Brexit solidifies. They can follow the lead of Ireland and the arrangements for the land crossing with N.I.
  - joe_mamba 6mo ago
    >That is still in play as the failure of Brexit solidifies. To be fair, the failure is on the UK governance itself, not on Brexit. Other major EU economies like France and Germany have seen similar economic trajectories since 2020 as the post-Brexit UK, despite them still being in the EU. The post-2020 Covid and Ukraine crisis are difficult to isolate from Brexit to know if it's just Brexit alone or the world economic situation fucking everyone regardless since then. Sure, Brexit probably didn't help, but looking at where Germany is now, I feel like UK handled the cold-turkey exit from the union far better than anyone expected.
    - Aachen 6mo ago
      Sure, the country didn't go back to be a developing nation, but "similar economic trajectories" leaves a lot of margin for how much better or worse it could have been. Purely economically, about 2-5% of GDP growth seems to have been left on the table, and in terms of human cost it's really hard to say anything positive about closing international borders between similar and allied countries

mmastrac 6mo ago

As an Albertan, I'm embarrassed that this is the image we project to the world, and sad that our punishment for collusion with foreign enemies isn't stronger or better enforced. One of the "separatist" leaders is hiding from the law in Texas. He can stay there. If there was any legitimacy in this process, the petition that got 150% of the votes in less time would have been addressed first rather than this sham, likely fake one, run by bad actors provably funded by foreign entities.

flossly 6mo ago
As an outsider I like this idea of being able to vote yourself out. This is the ultimate test of a democracy, imho, that you can leave it democratically (by vote and not by force). We've seen some interesting cases of this, in Spain and in the Donbas of the last years. I think the outcome of people voting against it is a great outcome. You have the freedom. You paid for the vote (its expensive) and "they" did not win. Hurray for unity at the highest level.
- kimos 6mo ago
  The issue here is that Canada belongs to all Canadians. A portion of voters in one province can’t just vote to help themselves to the territory of Canada.
- mmastrac 6mo ago
  You realize that this is the perfect way for foreign influence to destabilize western society, right? Democracy hasn't been hardened against social media and I'd prefer not to be another failed experiment like Brexit where we allow for foreign money to intentionally damage society.
  - belval 6mo ago
    Maybe, but I have trouble with the framing. Referendum votes are >50%. If a foreign nation can get >50% of the Albertans to agree to something, that's still democracy. Yes it feels wrong for the US to be giving money to influencers to influence the vote, but it's not like those voters are being coerced. In their opinion, Alberta would be better as a separate country. Whether that opinion is enlightened or not has no bearing on it being democratic or not.

rirze 6mo ago

Incoming Canadian Civil War?

spiderfarmer 6mo ago
No.
dismalaf 6mo ago
No. It's pretty clear that the Liberals have achieved dynasty status, only 25% of Canadians are net taxpayers, the rest live partially or fully on handouts, or are government employees whose income comes from taxes in the first place. Most Canadians who are upset with the status quo are leaving or have already left. Last year saw a record amount of Canadians move to the US.
M95D 6mo ago
No, they're civilized.
rirze 6mo ago
Jeez, the number of replies taking this as a knock on current political divide is saddening. If anyone remembers middle school history, the American civil war was ignited by the North refusing to accept Southern secession. Should've made it more obvious, I guess.

annagio_ 6mo ago

I saw the cbc about that video, and the guy said that even if they finally vote to leave, they will have tons of conversations with Canada regarding currency, laws etc. + other provinces have a say on this. It looks like it's not that easy.

slopinthebag 6mo ago

What I find interesting as a neutral observer is how people's views are often based on their own personal opinions about the country and region, and not the principles of democracy and the human right of self-determination. It seems like, if you like the country then you are a federalist and the separatists are traitors, anti-democratic, etc. If you don't like the country, the separatists are freedom fighters, and it's the federalists who are anti-democratic. I guess this makes sense, since the traitor/seditionist and freedom-fighter/revolutionary labels are entirely dependant on your affiliation with the associated country. But a lot of Americans have strong negative reactions to this idea, or the idea of Brexit, but almost certainly support their own founding fathers who were likewise traitors to the British Empire.

chaostheory 6mo ago

If Trump didn’t threaten annexation of Canada, this would have a much higher probability of success. It would also likely lead to Alberta becoming the 51st state

8note 6mo ago
it would also have a much lower chance of being put on the table. the separatists are the people that heard trump say that, and said YES PLEASE
- chaostheory 6mo ago
  Disagree. For decades, Alberta has been subsidizing Quebec and other no productive provinces. They’re sick of it. It also doesn’t help that Canada is a confederacy where the provincial governors have more power than your PM.

bawolff 6mo ago

As an albertan this feels like desperate pandering to a tiny vocal minority to distract from real issues. Almost nobody wants this.

brightball 6mo ago
A vote should end up showing that to be the case at least.
- jpalawaga 6mo ago
  maybe in the same way that we have to keep voting on awful privacy legislation
- matthewdgreen 6mo ago
  That's what they said about Brexit. 52% of the population voted yes in a single election, and the rest got dragged along for a multi-year ride. Current polls put support for the decision at 31%, but it's too late.
  - iso1631 6mo ago
    About a quarter voted yes, about a quarter voted no, about a quarter didn't vote and a quarter couldn't vote
    - bonesss 6mo ago
      Rationally, and unlike what that dirty old lady in The Holy Grail suggests, binding votes impacting foreign relations should happen on a single 50.01% vote and never ratified or verified. More rationally, if some 25% of the country can’t express themselves and another 25% are unsure/uncommitted one should assume their interests are best represented by the most invigorated and unified minority. I wish I could drop an ‘/s’, but, uh, ‘/no-really-thats-this-timeline’.
  - Aachen 6mo ago
    > 52% of the population voted yes Huh? 37% of the eligible voters, much less the population, voted yes according to https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2016_United_Kingdom_European_Union_membership_referendum https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2016_United_Kingdom_European_U...

harwoodr 6mo ago

It has been my experience that people always seem to want simple solutions to complex problems. The result is that the details of how complex those problems are get ignored or their impact is represented in a diminished way. In this case currency, debt, indigenous rights/claims and existing legislation are some examples of what is being glossed over and ignored.

lm411 6mo ago
Of these, I really only see "indigenous rights/claims" as a particularly difficult issue. For currency, The Maldives, with a relatively small population and tiny GDP has their own currency. What is the difficulty in currency? Ignoring the fact that AB would probably just use the greenback. All of these of these issues are surmountable.
- harwoodr 6mo ago
  I'll give you that currency isn't a huge issue. From what I recall, Quebec wanted to continue using the Canadian dollar if they separated. If they opted to go with the USD, they'd have to trade all their CAD - which will undoubtedly take a huge hit if they separated. I still think that separatists would say that Alberta doesn't have to deal with a share of the debt and that would be a sticking point.
- ctrl-alt-zen 6mo ago
  By glossing over all the details as “surmountable” you are illustrating how easy it is to ignore critical complexity. Debt includes concepts like “what does independent Alberta actually own or have to go into debt to purchase if major assets within its borders are literally Canadian federal property or connected to existing treaty rights?” This answer makes or breaks the entire proposal and does not have an easy or obvious solution.
  - lm411 6mo ago
    Surmountable - "possible to deal with or solve successfully". Does not mean "easy". It means they can be overcome.

privacyispower 6mo ago

Its mainly urbanites vs the rest of the province which is a pretty standard pattern in Canada. The eastern part of BC would want to join AB in leaving but that topic is totaly squashed in BC public discourse and media. Privately is a different story. It's like the eastern part of Oregon and their relationship to Portland as a good US comparable.

d_burfoot 6mo ago

Many commenters seem to be appealing to an almost religious defense of present political borders. That attitude is untenable: there is nothing sacred about national boundaries, they are mere political artifacts like rules, regulations, tax codes, etc. If the people want to change them, they absolutely have the right to do so. https://unifixion.substack.com/p/political-boundaries-are-not-sacred https://unifixion.substack.com/p/political-boundaries-are-no...

PearlRiver 6mo ago
Lincoln disagreed. The good man even had the balls to let loose Sherman.
the_gipsy 6mo ago
But the meaning of "people want" is very delicately depending on the geographical area and moment in time.
- qball 6mo ago
  Yes, and here "Canadians want" is used to say "the people within 100km of the St. Lawrence want". (That's actually part of the problem.) Claimed identity isn't a suicide pact and consent of the governed isn't equally geographically distributed. AB sees, correctly, an inordinate amount of tax per capita go out for the privilege of policies intended to kneecap that region's development. The justifications for those policies (whether you agree with them or not) matter less than the fact they're being imposed from a condition of moral hazard. Hence, the people of AB might vote to ban the people of ON/QC from imposing their laws; that's what separation is and why it happens.
  - transcriptase 6mo ago
    > AB sees, correctly, an inordinate amount of tax per capita go out for the privilege of policies intended to kneecap that region's development. Not only that, but the Feds typically use their outsized tax revenue from Alberta to “invest” in Quebec to buy votes via propping up unviable businesses, subsidies, outsized proportion of public sector jobs, and federal spending in general.

motohagiography 6mo ago

Some modern precedents for countries established by peaceful legal secession include: - Singapore (Malaysia) 1965 - Montenegro (Serbia) 2006 - Czech Republic (Czechoslovakia) 1993 - Iceland (Denmark) 1944 However, these are rare as most secession events are violent. Establishing a new country typically requires a revolution, and there is more support for that broadly in Canada for various reasons than any single province. The Alberta referendum is a polite signal and a test. The boomer generation and it's broadly left politics is dying off, meaning that the LPC and NDP need to replenish their electoral support to stay in power. It is uncontroversial that they have been doing this using radical immigration policies and throwing money away, particularly via the abuse of definitions of "temporary," and "asylum." Political interference by both India (exporting their independence problem) and China (creating a resource vassal) is undeniable at this point. Canadians with a stake in the country are quite reasonably concerned that their society is being demolished and replaced. Will they revolt, and could it succeed? It depends on whether they get US sponsorship or not. The more interesting question than the Alberta theater is whether Canada revolts and establishes a republic, or whether it gets annexed by the US or the EU. Alberta is just a canary for these other scenarios, imo.

thunderfork 6mo ago
>uncontroversial, quite reasonably Buddy, patting yourself on the back this much gives away the game
- motohagiography 6mo ago
  it's gov's own data and stated policies. discourse or gtfo.
  - thunderfork 6mo ago
    i think "source or gtfo" is a fair response to this claim stated in this way
    - motohagiography 6mo ago

fred_is_fred 6mo ago

If they secede the US can go help them with democracy. They do have oil.

BiraIgnacio 6mo ago

The referendum is actually about having a referendum first. "Alberta to hold fall referendum on whether to have binding referendum on separating from Canada" https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/edmonton/alberta-separation-referendum-televised-address-9.7208162 https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/edmonton/alberta-separation-r...

userbinator 6mo ago
Classic bureaucracy.
- patcon 6mo ago
  No, it would be a waste to spend countless millions (nevermind the human capital of "attention") on the campaigning, without first validating that a true quorom of people even want to think about this, rather than a very vocal minority. It's a governance equivalent of saying "step up or shut up", and it's not stupid or wasteful You're too eager to label legit "governance" as bureaucracy imho
card_zero 6mo ago
New Caledonia have been hesitating about independence the longest. In a referendum in 1958, they voted against independence from France. In 1987, they again voted against independence. In 1988, they voted to hold a referendum about independence in 1998. In 1998, they didn't hold that referendum, but instead voted their approval of a 20-year plan to transition to increased autonomy. In 2018, they voted against independence. In 2020, they voted against independence. In 2021, they voted against independence. In 2024, they had a crisis over disagreements about the rules about voting about independence.
illiac786 6mo ago
That made me laugh actually. What a good way of wasting taxpayers money and make people laugh at the same time. More seriously: Why?
- Sprocklem 6mo ago

OgsyedIE 6mo ago

An independent Alberta would face the Dutch disease effect crashing the employment figures, wages and viability of everything except oil and gas. At least a 10% jump in unemployment in two years. 51st state with the USD absorbing the excess productivity however? It comes down to the negotiations. Right now, huge Albertan budget surpluses get sent to Ottawa to be spent outside of Alberta (largely as a carrot to inhibit other independence movements), which is what motivates the Albertan independence movement. Any Albertans would hope the US to be more egalitarian. However, the US might put them over a barrel and make similar revenue flows a condition of joining, which would be the smart play for Washington (possibly with some tariff and travel restrictions sticks if they don't). If the 47 admin is bankrolling the content farms producing this independence movement (as Orban was the Daily Wire) then the US has all upsides. Canada fractured and easier to loot and Alberta entirely undefended from looting. Somehow, I expect that the only Canadians recognising this attack surface are a few bureaucrats too low down in Ottawa to get their voices out and that the parties will just try to fight the anti-independence tactics in the culture war moralising style of the now-departed Freeland, which is a decade out of date and powerless to sway the Albertans. . Generalising away from just Canada, one of the great weaknesses of liberal parties worldwide is electoralism. They cannot look at the electorate they have over their desire for the electorate they'd prefer they had. To paraphrase PG, if you don't ditch people who prefer being right to winning you'll deserve the outcome they produce for you.

alistairSH 6mo ago
Right now, huge Albertan budget surpluses get sent to Ottawa to be spent outside of Alberta (largely as a carrot to inhibit other independence movements), which is what motivates the Albertan independence movement. Any Albertans would hope the US to be more egalitarian. Is Alberta taxed at a higher rate than other provinces? Nothing in the top few hits on Google indicates this to be the case. And I'm not sure how the US would be different - all states pay the same federal income tax rates, whether that's individual or business income.
- slopinthebag 6mo ago
  They're called "Equalisation payments". Certain provinces pay them, like BC, Alberta, and Ontario, and then other provinces receive them. In 2023, the federal government spent $24.0 billion including an estimated $3.3 billion from Alberta, which has not received equalization payments since 1964/65. From 2007 to 2022, Albertans’ net contribution to federal finances was $244.6 billion, more than five times the net contribution from British Columbia or Ontario, the only other two net contributors. Albertans’ also disproportionately contribute to the CPP. From 1981 to 2022, the amount Albertans paid into the program, over and above what retirees in Alberta received in CPP payments, was $53.6 billion, approximately six times greater than the net contribution of B.C., the only other net contributing province.

mvdtnz 6mo ago

> Still, opinion polls suggest that the majority of Albertans would vote against separating. This feels familiar.

mig39 6mo ago

Albertan here. I want to remain in Canada. I will leave Alberta if it separates. This is being driven by a vocal conspiracy-minded maple-MAGA base that got our current premiere her job. A majority of Albertans are against any talk of separation.

FatherOfCurses 6mo ago

I'd say "let them leave" if it didn't play into both the U.S. and Russia's desires. I'm sick of their whining.

wesleyd 6mo ago

I remember an interview with Margaret Atwood [0] in which she joked that while Quebec might vote to leave Canada, the first nations own the bit of Canada where all the hydroelectric power comes from, and _they_ won't want to secede. And wouldn't have to, because Canada has treaties with various First Nations that among other things require Canada to come to their aid if attacked. I wonder if the same thing might apply here. PS. The interviewer was Tyler Cowen, and [the transcript](https://conversationswithtyler.com/episodes/margaret-atwood/ https://conversationswithtyler.com/episodes/margaret-atwood/) says: ATWOOD: I think things will stay kind of the way they are. But think about this very carefully, as people did when it was a distinct possibility. You have Quebec there. The people to the north of Quebec are not French-speaking Quebecers. They’re indigenous people. And they said — and that’s where the hydroelectric power comes from, by the way — they said, “If you separate from Canada, we’re going to separate from you on the same grounds. Different language, older culture, etc.” And Quebec said, “Oh, no, you’re not.” And they said, “Oh, yes, we are. And by the way, we happen to have a treaty with Canada that says that if any foreign power invades us, they have to defend us.” So if Quebec separates, north of Quebec separates from Quebec, Quebec invades them, Canada invades. You see what I mean?

subscribed 6mo ago

That would totally be something paid of by Bannon/Trump, and ordered from Kremlin. No chance of succeeding, or st least incredibly slim, and the past success (Brexit), proves the country will slowly rip itself to pieces, weakening unity, engaging in tribalism and resentment. Cui Bono?