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One of the things I like about this is that OP is giving people genuine compliments without any particular agenda. It reminds me of one of my favorite parts of

by mtlynch 5mo ago

One of the things I like about this is that OP is giving people genuine compliments without any particular agenda. It reminds me of one of my favorite parts of How to Win Friends and Influence People by Dale Carnegie, where he tells a story about complimenting someone, and a student asks what he was hoping to gain from offering the compliment. Carnegie is incensed: > I was waiting in line to register a letter in the Post Office at Thirty-Third Street and Eighth Avenue in New York. I noticed that the registry clerk was bored with his job[...] So while he was weighing my envelope, I remarked with enthusiasm: “I certainly wish I had your head of hair.” > He looked up, half-startled, his face beaming with smiles. “Well, it isn’t as good as it used to be,” he said modestly. I assured him that although it might have lost some of its pristine glory, nevertheless it was still magnificent. He was immensely pleased. We carried on a pleasant little conversation, and the last thing he said to me was: “Many people have admired my hair.” > I told this story once in public; and a man asked me afterwards: “What did you want to get out of him?” > What was I trying to get out of him!!! What was I trying to get out of him!!! > If we are so contemptibly selfish that we can’t radiate a little happiness and pass on a bit of honest appreciation without trying to screw something out of the other person in return—if our souls are no bigger than sour crab apples, we shall meet with the failure we so richly deserve. > Oh yes, I did want something out of that chap. I wanted something priceless. And I got it. I got the feeling that I had done something for him without his being able to do anything whatever in return for me. That is a feeling that glows and sings in your memory long after the incident is passed.

soperj 5mo ago
Unwarranted compliments is my biggest red flag.
- crazygringo 5mo ago
  Which is why you should only give warranted compliments. You're right, telling someone bald that they have a great head of hair is not going to work well. Fortunately, virtually everyone has something you can compliment them about. Even if they're a surly old frumpy shopkeeper, maybe they keep their store super clean and organized. Maybe you're impressed by their loyalty to serving the community for so many decades. Never say anything that isn't genuine. Fortunately, most people have qualities you can be genuine about.
  - soperj 5mo ago
    I guess I should edit it to just compliments are my biggest red flag, and it's born out of experience. These people are looking for something either now or in the future, and this bullshit false niceness is simply their way of cultivating a network of people that they can use.
    - subscribed 5mo ago
      [flagged]
      - soperj 5mo ago
        Aww, that's nice. People must genuinely enjoy your humour. Thanks for engaging in such a shitty way.
    - crazygringo 5mo ago
      I'm sorry that's been your experience. I don't know where you live; and I know this can be a cultural thing. But in America at least, it's not usually bullshit or false. It's not a means to an end. I will compliment servers and cashiers and receptionist just because it makes everyone friendlier and we all enjoy our brief interaction more than we would otherwise. It would be nonsensical to say I was using them. For what? I am aware that there are cultures out there where nobody does this and it is viewed highly with suspicion. It just makes me very happy I don't live in one of those places.
      - soperj 5mo ago
        > I will compliment servers and cashiers and receptionist just because it makes everyone friendlier and we all enjoy our brief interaction more than we would otherwise. It's been my experience that many of these people hate that, and that the reason they seem to enjoy it is that that's what they're trained to do.
        crazygringo 5mo ago
VoodooJuJu 5mo ago
[dead]
dijit 5mo ago
> ... OP is giving people genuine compliments without any particular agenda. It takes some effort to be good at doing this, if people aren't used to getting any kind of compliment then it can land as super awkward. (hint: avoid commenting on peoples physical appearance directly, always clothing, or hair, make-up, jewellery/watches -- or ideally how they handle themselves) The "trick" is confidence, knowing in yourself that you mean well and, if challenged doubling down with a broad genuine smile, don't try to half-ass the smile because it makes things awkward-er. The other thing is that compliments can be broad, but criticisms have to be very specific. Once you get the hang of it you can make peoples days genuinely better effortlessly, by just saying the positive thing that you're thinking. "How are you today" → "Better, now you're here" -- Isn't cheesy, if you mean it.
- gib444 5mo ago
  Funny how different our experiences are > "How are you today" → "Better, now you're here" -- Isn't cheesy, if you mean it. To me that's super creepy. It's like a cheap pickup line. It's only something I'd say to someone I'd been dating a while. > avoid commenting on peoples physical appearance directly Gym bros love compliments on their muscles. It has to come across as "bro to bro" and not with a "broad genuine smile" (as a gay guy, you'd come across pretty gay IMHO lol)
  - dijit 5mo ago
    Hah, fun how that works. Maybe the trick is not caring if it comes across as creepy. If you take my genuine happiness to see you as creepy, maybe thats a you problem.
    - gib444 5mo ago
      [flagged]
      - throw5 5mo ago
        Way to find something negative in everything. Congratulations on derailing what was otherwise such a nice thread. Well done. Not everyone in this world is always on edge like you. It is OK to be cheesy sometimes. Humor exists for a reason. Not every unconventional interaction is creepy. Get over yourself, please.
alexmuresan 5mo ago
I avoided this book for a long time. for some reason I got it in my head that it's a sort of red pilled book that teaches you how to manipulate people. I know it's very shallow on my side, but I somehow crystallized this opinion based on a few acquaintances that claimed to read it and instead that they include the name of a person they just met in every sentence because it made that person like them more. Your comment made me consider reading it. This rant about radiating happiness towards people without expecting something in return gives me a different insight on his reasons for writing the book. I might give it a shot. Thank you
- jsksoswk 5mo ago
  Well, your instinct is right from the title. “influence” is a euphemism for “manipulate.” Affecting influence is subtle manipulation. A compliment about someone’s hair is great if you genuinely admire their hair. But if you read a book about influencing people and suddenly start complimenting people’s hair, time for some introspection.
  - bitexploder 5mo ago
    I think the idea is to find things true to you to genuinely compliment?
    - bayindirh 5mo ago
      The idea is to have genuine compassion without any agenda, actually. Or on a deeper level, just acknowledge people exist, and let them know that their existence is noticed. Nothing more, nothing less.
  - y1n0 5mo ago
    Manipulation is about trickery. Influence does not have to be manipulation. Persuasion through reason is influence.
    - babijax 5mo ago
      I think that’s exactly what they’re saying. Influence doesn’t have to be manipulative, but it sure can be. Here’s the difference: Influence for influence sake is selfishly motivated. Doing something charitable garners influence. Influence is a side-effect and not the intended goal—unless it is, and then it’s manipulation. The fact is correct that the word influence is a euphemism for manipulation. The very fact that people are confused about this is case-in-point on the subtlety of the notion.
dfxm12 5mo ago
One of the things I like about this is that OP is giving people genuine compliments without any particular agenda. Wanting that priceless glowing and singing feeling is an agenda.
- crazygringo 5mo ago
  No it's not. What's next, do you think parents providing for their children is an agenda, merely so the parents can feel good about that glowing feeling about being a good parent?
  - dfxm12 5mo ago
    Yes it is, and the narrator told us so. There's no need to put words in my mouth; I agree with the narrator that you can want to do a good thing for many reasons. In this case, the narrator tells us why he did what he did.
    - crazygringo 5mo ago
      I'm ctrl+F'ing for "agenda" on the post and getting zero results, sorry. I don't need to "put words in your mouth", you are literally the one who used the word "agenda". You don't seem to understand what the word "agenda" means in social interactions. It has a negative connotation, it is an ulterior motive, something you are hiding from the other person because they wouldn't like it. That doesn't apply to normal positive-sum social interactions. Again, see my example about parents and children. You are misunderstanding the meaning and usage of the word "agenda".
    - butlike 5mo ago
      Feels good to do good, as they say.
- adamtaylor_13 5mo ago
  Ahh yes, that wretched agenda of human connection. Who should desire such a thing?
cm2012 5mo ago
I read this book when I was 18 and took it to heart. I love complimenting people. Its such a joy.
- subscribed 5mo ago
  Especially if you keep in mind some get a low single digits through their life, so every single one matters.
pjmlp 5mo ago
This seems to be a cultural problem to me. There are societies where talking to strangers all over the place is normal, without any hidden agenda. Or even dancing with random people at the club, many times never to be seen again. Just to give a more intim kind of example. While in other cultures, seems that unless there is something to gain from the effort, people don't even try.
Aurornis 5mo ago
> without any particular agenda. This is a very important part of learning how to have real conversations with people. There is too much bad advice about using tricks or hacks to try to start friendly conversations with people. It’s refreshing to see someone learning that a key to healthy conversation is having selfless motives. Something surprising about How to Win Friends and Influence People is that it’s not as manipulative as the title suggests. A key theme of the book is that you need to be genuine in your interactions. You can’t pretend to be interested in what other people say, you have to actually approach the conversation with interest. People will see through hidden agendas and ulterior motives. The bad social advice tries to use too many tricks and hacks to formulate a set of interactions that sound good when you’re reading about them but have the wrong effect when you go into the world and interact with other people with a hidden agenda. This is why I caution against all of the conversation hacks that are recommended, like coming up with excuses to ask someone for a favor (that you don’t really need) as a way to get them into a conversation or pretending to be interested in their life story when you’re only interested in getting someone to talk to you. Others will recognize when there are hidden agendas. It doesn’t set you up for success.
- senkora 5mo ago
  I once heard "creepiness" defined as "becoming invested in advance in a particular outcome to a social interaction". In that sense, trying tricks in order to have a "successful conversation" will always fail so long as you are emotionally invested in advance in the conversation being "successful". It's far better to be genuine and accept that you have only so much control over how things will go.
  - asdfman123 5mo ago
    It's ok to sort of passively want things, everyone does, but the real problem is when you try to try to subtly force an outcome that isn't natural. That's when people get uncomfortable. If a stranger is light and friendly and asks to hang out, no problem. If they start getting subtly frustrated about your response, your spider sense goes off.
nico 5mo ago
That book is very good. However, for some (including me at some point), it can be a bit advanced I highly recommend the book The Charisma Myth, it covers a lot of the same topics, including very good exercises, to help understand and develop human interactions in general Personally, it helped me be able to get into, the situations that the first book assumes the reader is already in, or comfortable with (like talking to strangers)
scubbo 5mo ago
Wow - this is the complete opposite tone I had expected from this book, given the title.
dktoao 5mo ago
Since everyone else is sharing their experiences with this book here is mine: Reading this books was a huge turning point for me as someone with diagnosed mild Autism. I think a lot of the things in this books are fairly obvious to non neuro-divergent folks. But for me, it was like a manual on how to handle myself in social situations, a thing that was mysterious and frustrating to me before. I wouldn't say I am now some sort of socialite, but I am far from the days of being being excluded from basically every social group I attempted to be part of.
alecco 5mo ago
> One of the things I like about this is that OP is giving people genuine compliments without any particular agenda. IMHO that is as fake as a car salesman. Mature, cultured people will say thank you and think "what a nuisance". I prefer being open about my motives. Smart people appreciate truth over compliments. And if the dumb/immature get offended, good riddance. I used to be a big fan of HtWFaIP, but eventually I realized it's not healthy.
- ignoramous 5mo ago
  > Mature, cultured people will say thank you and think "what a nuisance" The world is a mirror, forever reflecting what you are doing within yourself.
  - alecco 5mo ago
    I hope you enjoyed the hormonal reward you got when you copy-pasted that amazingly deep proverb. Let's expand on it a bit. Is the world a mirror to street salespeople? Is the world a mirror to stalkers? To sociopaths?
    - ignoramous 5mo ago
      > amazingly deep proverb You misunderstand. You can't claim to speak for all "mature" & "cultured" people. That is, who gets to judge those who don't conform to one specific observed / inferred worldview, aren't "cultured" or "mature" enough? (if it wasn't clear, this question isn't an invitation to debate). > Let's expand on it a bit. Is the world a mirror to street salespeople? Is the world a mirror to stalkers? To sociopaths? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Loaded_question https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Loaded_question
      - alecco 5mo ago
        Yes, they are loaded, that's the point. It's a rhetorical method to (hopefully) make people consider that point of view.
- 5mo ago
MrBuddyCasino 5mo ago
„We use the unrevised edition because we believe the revised edition (the revisions were done by Carnegie’s relatives after his death) forcefully makes the language of the book gender neutral and politically correct and takes away from the originality of the work. They even went so far ahead as to make quotes from other people gender neutral and politically correct. Most of the revised editions available today do not include Parts 5 and 6. Even the included parts see many paragraphs and examples omitted. In many places, characters in examples who were male have been edited to be female. It appears that Carnegie’s relatives decided to heavily excise content and highhandedly edit the work to match their own sensibilities and what appears to the webmasters as a feminist agenda. The unrevised edition as on this website is complete without exclusions and edits. We believe this text written by Dale Carnegie himself while he was alive without the alterations made by his relatives after his death is more readable, complete, and enjoyable.“ How to Win Friends and Influence People: Unrevised Version https://socialskillswisdom.com/ https://socialskillswisdom.com/
- averynicepen 5mo ago
  Thanks for sharing, I had no idea. Looks like I'll have to go look for the original for a reread.
asdfman123 5mo ago
Complimenting people was my college party trick. I'd be a little inebriated and I'd just compliment people/say friendly vibey things. "That's a cool hat" or "that song is awesome" or "where did you get that??"
- JALTU 5mo ago
  Your comment reminds me of advice I once got as a young person: small talk is an invitation to talk, and if you don't get traction with small talk, you're not ever going to get deep talk. So, hopefully the friendly vibe was a good start to build on!
anbotero 5mo ago
Are the examples so outdated? I see multiples comments/reviews (here and on the Internet) about the book not being made for modern people/society, but what you pasted looks fine to me. Sure, there may be cultures where making comments of people out of the blue might not be seen as normal, but almost everywhere I've gone in this world allows for comments like these.
- SchemaLoad 5mo ago
  I haven't read it, but I find it hard to believe that good social advice would go out of date. Our brains haven't changed on a fundamental level since then. If anything, modern social interaction has diverged from what is good for us and what we really want.
ubermonkey 5mo ago
I've never read that book -- no reason; just mostly prefer fiction, and never got around to it. The funny thing is that I make a habit of doing what Carnegie describes here, and for the same reasons. As I've gotten older -- I'm 56 -- I also realize I look like the archetypal middle-aged straight white dude, and my cohort doesn't have a GREAT reputation across the board, so I feel like I should be even MORE careful about the energy I put out into the world. And nothing lifts _my_ mood better than being nice to somebody else.
lo_zamoyski 5mo ago
Excellent passage. As a society, we have a certain tendency to feel sorry for ourselves. If we have “social anxiety”, we like to give it a quasi-medical diagnosis. We rarely suspect that we may actually have something bad in our intentions. Many forms of anxiety are actually rooted in impure motives, especially when there is another part of us that conflicts with that motive. The conflict may result from a shred of conscience that enters into a tug-of-war with our impure motives. It could be rooted in a cognitive denial of those motives, as denial of truth can manifest in subconscious turbulence and nervous expressions of emotional energy. Perhaps we want to indulge those impure motives, but lack the chutzpah to do so, creating internal tension (the chutzpah would produce its own psychic anguish). Perhaps we’re selfish, but fail to recognize it. These sorts of things cause turmoil in the soul that can create anxiety. Think of the “nice guy”. “Nice Guys” are some of the biggest assholes around. They’re two-faced schemers. A “Nice Guy’s niceness” is instrumental; he will be “nice” to a woman he finds attractive, because he has already imagined in his head that this will ingratiate him with her. He has already created a ledger in his mind: “if I am nice to this woman, then she is in my debt and now owes me the desired approval in return”. But the moment this woman fails to conform to the expectations of this “Nice Guy” is the moment his comes for his pound of flesh. You see the mask drop and his nastiness surface. The anxiety is rooted, among other things, in a failure to recognize the humanity and rights of this woman. For him, her meaning and her being are totally exhausted by his sexual desire, perhaps because he sees his own meaning exhausted by her approval, hence the apparent magnitude and terrific importance of her judgement. He wants to dominate by force or by manipulation rather than allow a woman to choose to surrender voluntarily, because she has determined this is good. Magnanimity is one of the high virtues of classical virtue ethics - a sort of crowning culmination of them - and one of the features of magnanimous people is that they are at ease around others. It is well worth returning to this virtue ethics, because it does enlighten us about the nature of moral excellence. Love is willing the genuine good of the other, unselfishly. There is no fear in someone of perfect love.
singularity2001 5mo ago
Interesting when I read the book I wanted to rename it to "How to win fake friends and manipulate people." Maybe I missed the humble passages.
suzzer99 5mo ago
I always try to compliment people if I see they're taking a lot of pride in their work or something they're doing. I was at a conference where the staff each had a coffee/tea/sweets station to maintain. I noticed one woman cleaning and polishing and being super fastidious. I wanted to compliment her, but then I debated with myself if that would be patronizing somehow. Finally, I decided to tell her she had a very nice station, and she just beamed ear-to-ear in response.
ap99 5mo ago
Ok yes, pushing positivity into the universe is better than pushing nothing or negativity. But there are people who will flatter purely for gain. I think being aware of which is which is very useful. Also who is giving the compliment will factor into how I receive it.
m3047 5mo ago
Find the Leary Wheel somewhere. People have referred to the Hypernormal / Overconventional slices as the "Dale Carnegie Quadrant". Oh nevermind. Let's see what this attracts: http://athena.m3047.net/pub/fwm/leary-wheel.png http://athena.m3047.net/pub/fwm/leary-wheel.png
damirkotoric 5mo ago
Ironically enough, Dale Carnegie's book is about as far as you can get from genuine human connections. The whole book is centred aruond an underlying desire to gain something from someone. So good on you for finding that one genuine bit of interaction in the entire book.

by mtlynch 5mo ago

soperj 5mo ago

Unwarranted compliments is my biggest red flag.

crazygringo 5mo ago
Which is why you should only give warranted compliments. You're right, telling someone bald that they have a great head of hair is not going to work well. Fortunately, virtually everyone has something you can compliment them about. Even if they're a surly old frumpy shopkeeper, maybe they keep their store super clean and organized. Maybe you're impressed by their loyalty to serving the community for so many decades. Never say anything that isn't genuine. Fortunately, most people have qualities you can be genuine about.
- soperj 5mo ago
  I guess I should edit it to just compliments are my biggest red flag, and it's born out of experience. These people are looking for something either now or in the future, and this bullshit false niceness is simply their way of cultivating a network of people that they can use.
  - subscribed 5mo ago
    [flagged]
    - soperj 5mo ago
      Aww, that's nice. People must genuinely enjoy your humour. Thanks for engaging in such a shitty way.
  - crazygringo 5mo ago
    I'm sorry that's been your experience. I don't know where you live; and I know this can be a cultural thing. But in America at least, it's not usually bullshit or false. It's not a means to an end. I will compliment servers and cashiers and receptionist just because it makes everyone friendlier and we all enjoy our brief interaction more than we would otherwise. It would be nonsensical to say I was using them. For what? I am aware that there are cultures out there where nobody does this and it is viewed highly with suspicion. It just makes me very happy I don't live in one of those places.
    - soperj 5mo ago
      > I will compliment servers and cashiers and receptionist just because it makes everyone friendlier and we all enjoy our brief interaction more than we would otherwise. It's been my experience that many of these people hate that, and that the reason they seem to enjoy it is that that's what they're trained to do.
      - crazygringo 5mo ago

VoodooJuJu 5mo ago

[dead]

dijit 5mo ago

> ... OP is giving people genuine compliments without any particular agenda. It takes some effort to be good at doing this, if people aren't used to getting any kind of compliment then it can land as super awkward. (hint: avoid commenting on peoples physical appearance directly, always clothing, or hair, make-up, jewellery/watches -- or ideally how they handle themselves) The "trick" is confidence, knowing in yourself that you mean well and, if challenged doubling down with a broad genuine smile, don't try to half-ass the smile because it makes things awkward-er. The other thing is that compliments can be broad, but criticisms have to be very specific. Once you get the hang of it you can make peoples days genuinely better effortlessly, by just saying the positive thing that you're thinking. "How are you today" → "Better, now you're here" -- Isn't cheesy, if you mean it.

gib444 5mo ago
Funny how different our experiences are > "How are you today" → "Better, now you're here" -- Isn't cheesy, if you mean it. To me that's super creepy. It's like a cheap pickup line. It's only something I'd say to someone I'd been dating a while. > avoid commenting on peoples physical appearance directly Gym bros love compliments on their muscles. It has to come across as "bro to bro" and not with a "broad genuine smile" (as a gay guy, you'd come across pretty gay IMHO lol)
- dijit 5mo ago
  Hah, fun how that works. Maybe the trick is not caring if it comes across as creepy. If you take my genuine happiness to see you as creepy, maybe thats a you problem.
  - gib444 5mo ago
    [flagged]
    - throw5 5mo ago
      Way to find something negative in everything. Congratulations on derailing what was otherwise such a nice thread. Well done. Not everyone in this world is always on edge like you. It is OK to be cheesy sometimes. Humor exists for a reason. Not every unconventional interaction is creepy. Get over yourself, please.

alexmuresan 5mo ago

I avoided this book for a long time. for some reason I got it in my head that it's a sort of red pilled book that teaches you how to manipulate people. I know it's very shallow on my side, but I somehow crystallized this opinion based on a few acquaintances that claimed to read it and instead that they include the name of a person they just met in every sentence because it made that person like them more. Your comment made me consider reading it. This rant about radiating happiness towards people without expecting something in return gives me a different insight on his reasons for writing the book. I might give it a shot. Thank you

jsksoswk 5mo ago
Well, your instinct is right from the title. “influence” is a euphemism for “manipulate.” Affecting influence is subtle manipulation. A compliment about someone’s hair is great if you genuinely admire their hair. But if you read a book about influencing people and suddenly start complimenting people’s hair, time for some introspection.
- bitexploder 5mo ago
  I think the idea is to find things true to you to genuinely compliment?
  - bayindirh 5mo ago
    The idea is to have genuine compassion without any agenda, actually. Or on a deeper level, just acknowledge people exist, and let them know that their existence is noticed. Nothing more, nothing less.
- y1n0 5mo ago
  Manipulation is about trickery. Influence does not have to be manipulation. Persuasion through reason is influence.
  - babijax 5mo ago
    I think that’s exactly what they’re saying. Influence doesn’t have to be manipulative, but it sure can be. Here’s the difference: Influence for influence sake is selfishly motivated. Doing something charitable garners influence. Influence is a side-effect and not the intended goal—unless it is, and then it’s manipulation. The fact is correct that the word influence is a euphemism for manipulation. The very fact that people are confused about this is case-in-point on the subtlety of the notion.

dfxm12 5mo ago

One of the things I like about this is that OP is giving people genuine compliments without any particular agenda. Wanting that priceless glowing and singing feeling is an agenda.

crazygringo 5mo ago
No it's not. What's next, do you think parents providing for their children is an agenda, merely so the parents can feel good about that glowing feeling about being a good parent?
- dfxm12 5mo ago
  Yes it is, and the narrator told us so. There's no need to put words in my mouth; I agree with the narrator that you can want to do a good thing for many reasons. In this case, the narrator tells us why he did what he did.
  - crazygringo 5mo ago
    I'm ctrl+F'ing for "agenda" on the post and getting zero results, sorry. I don't need to "put words in your mouth", you are literally the one who used the word "agenda". You don't seem to understand what the word "agenda" means in social interactions. It has a negative connotation, it is an ulterior motive, something you are hiding from the other person because they wouldn't like it. That doesn't apply to normal positive-sum social interactions. Again, see my example about parents and children. You are misunderstanding the meaning and usage of the word "agenda".
  - butlike 5mo ago
    Feels good to do good, as they say.
adamtaylor_13 5mo ago
Ahh yes, that wretched agenda of human connection. Who should desire such a thing?

cm2012 5mo ago

I read this book when I was 18 and took it to heart. I love complimenting people. Its such a joy.

subscribed 5mo ago
Especially if you keep in mind some get a low single digits through their life, so every single one matters.

pjmlp 5mo ago

This seems to be a cultural problem to me. There are societies where talking to strangers all over the place is normal, without any hidden agenda. Or even dancing with random people at the club, many times never to be seen again. Just to give a more intim kind of example. While in other cultures, seems that unless there is something to gain from the effort, people don't even try.

Aurornis 5mo ago

> without any particular agenda. This is a very important part of learning how to have real conversations with people. There is too much bad advice about using tricks or hacks to try to start friendly conversations with people. It’s refreshing to see someone learning that a key to healthy conversation is having selfless motives. Something surprising about How to Win Friends and Influence People is that it’s not as manipulative as the title suggests. A key theme of the book is that you need to be genuine in your interactions. You can’t pretend to be interested in what other people say, you have to actually approach the conversation with interest. People will see through hidden agendas and ulterior motives. The bad social advice tries to use too many tricks and hacks to formulate a set of interactions that sound good when you’re reading about them but have the wrong effect when you go into the world and interact with other people with a hidden agenda. This is why I caution against all of the conversation hacks that are recommended, like coming up with excuses to ask someone for a favor (that you don’t really need) as a way to get them into a conversation or pretending to be interested in their life story when you’re only interested in getting someone to talk to you. Others will recognize when there are hidden agendas. It doesn’t set you up for success.

senkora 5mo ago
I once heard "creepiness" defined as "becoming invested in advance in a particular outcome to a social interaction". In that sense, trying tricks in order to have a "successful conversation" will always fail so long as you are emotionally invested in advance in the conversation being "successful". It's far better to be genuine and accept that you have only so much control over how things will go.
- asdfman123 5mo ago
  It's ok to sort of passively want things, everyone does, but the real problem is when you try to try to subtly force an outcome that isn't natural. That's when people get uncomfortable. If a stranger is light and friendly and asks to hang out, no problem. If they start getting subtly frustrated about your response, your spider sense goes off.

nico 5mo ago

That book is very good. However, for some (including me at some point), it can be a bit advanced I highly recommend the book The Charisma Myth, it covers a lot of the same topics, including very good exercises, to help understand and develop human interactions in general Personally, it helped me be able to get into, the situations that the first book assumes the reader is already in, or comfortable with (like talking to strangers)

scubbo 5mo ago

Wow - this is the complete opposite tone I had expected from this book, given the title.

dktoao 5mo ago

Since everyone else is sharing their experiences with this book here is mine: Reading this books was a huge turning point for me as someone with diagnosed mild Autism. I think a lot of the things in this books are fairly obvious to non neuro-divergent folks. But for me, it was like a manual on how to handle myself in social situations, a thing that was mysterious and frustrating to me before. I wouldn't say I am now some sort of socialite, but I am far from the days of being being excluded from basically every social group I attempted to be part of.

alecco 5mo ago

> One of the things I like about this is that OP is giving people genuine compliments without any particular agenda. IMHO that is as fake as a car salesman. Mature, cultured people will say thank you and think "what a nuisance". I prefer being open about my motives. Smart people appreciate truth over compliments. And if the dumb/immature get offended, good riddance. I used to be a big fan of HtWFaIP, but eventually I realized it's not healthy.

ignoramous 5mo ago
> Mature, cultured people will say thank you and think "what a nuisance" The world is a mirror, forever reflecting what you are doing within yourself.
- alecco 5mo ago
  I hope you enjoyed the hormonal reward you got when you copy-pasted that amazingly deep proverb. Let's expand on it a bit. Is the world a mirror to street salespeople? Is the world a mirror to stalkers? To sociopaths?
  - ignoramous 5mo ago
    > amazingly deep proverb You misunderstand. You can't claim to speak for all "mature" & "cultured" people. That is, who gets to judge those who don't conform to one specific observed / inferred worldview, aren't "cultured" or "mature" enough? (if it wasn't clear, this question isn't an invitation to debate). > Let's expand on it a bit. Is the world a mirror to street salespeople? Is the world a mirror to stalkers? To sociopaths? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Loaded_question https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Loaded_question
    - alecco 5mo ago
      Yes, they are loaded, that's the point. It's a rhetorical method to (hopefully) make people consider that point of view.
5mo ago

MrBuddyCasino 5mo ago

„We use the unrevised edition because we believe the revised edition (the revisions were done by Carnegie’s relatives after his death) forcefully makes the language of the book gender neutral and politically correct and takes away from the originality of the work. They even went so far ahead as to make quotes from other people gender neutral and politically correct. Most of the revised editions available today do not include Parts 5 and 6. Even the included parts see many paragraphs and examples omitted. In many places, characters in examples who were male have been edited to be female. It appears that Carnegie’s relatives decided to heavily excise content and highhandedly edit the work to match their own sensibilities and what appears to the webmasters as a feminist agenda. The unrevised edition as on this website is complete without exclusions and edits. We believe this text written by Dale Carnegie himself while he was alive without the alterations made by his relatives after his death is more readable, complete, and enjoyable.“ How to Win Friends and Influence People: Unrevised Version https://socialskillswisdom.com/ https://socialskillswisdom.com/

averynicepen 5mo ago
Thanks for sharing, I had no idea. Looks like I'll have to go look for the original for a reread.

asdfman123 5mo ago

Complimenting people was my college party trick. I'd be a little inebriated and I'd just compliment people/say friendly vibey things. "That's a cool hat" or "that song is awesome" or "where did you get that??"

JALTU 5mo ago
Your comment reminds me of advice I once got as a young person: small talk is an invitation to talk, and if you don't get traction with small talk, you're not ever going to get deep talk. So, hopefully the friendly vibe was a good start to build on!

anbotero 5mo ago

Are the examples so outdated? I see multiples comments/reviews (here and on the Internet) about the book not being made for modern people/society, but what you pasted looks fine to me. Sure, there may be cultures where making comments of people out of the blue might not be seen as normal, but almost everywhere I've gone in this world allows for comments like these.

SchemaLoad 5mo ago
I haven't read it, but I find it hard to believe that good social advice would go out of date. Our brains haven't changed on a fundamental level since then. If anything, modern social interaction has diverged from what is good for us and what we really want.

ubermonkey 5mo ago

I've never read that book -- no reason; just mostly prefer fiction, and never got around to it. The funny thing is that I make a habit of doing what Carnegie describes here, and for the same reasons. As I've gotten older -- I'm 56 -- I also realize I look like the archetypal middle-aged straight white dude, and my cohort doesn't have a GREAT reputation across the board, so I feel like I should be even MORE careful about the energy I put out into the world. And nothing lifts _my_ mood better than being nice to somebody else.

lo_zamoyski 5mo ago

Excellent passage. As a society, we have a certain tendency to feel sorry for ourselves. If we have “social anxiety”, we like to give it a quasi-medical diagnosis. We rarely suspect that we may actually have something bad in our intentions. Many forms of anxiety are actually rooted in impure motives, especially when there is another part of us that conflicts with that motive. The conflict may result from a shred of conscience that enters into a tug-of-war with our impure motives. It could be rooted in a cognitive denial of those motives, as denial of truth can manifest in subconscious turbulence and nervous expressions of emotional energy. Perhaps we want to indulge those impure motives, but lack the chutzpah to do so, creating internal tension (the chutzpah would produce its own psychic anguish). Perhaps we’re selfish, but fail to recognize it. These sorts of things cause turmoil in the soul that can create anxiety. Think of the “nice guy”. “Nice Guys” are some of the biggest assholes around. They’re two-faced schemers. A “Nice Guy’s niceness” is instrumental; he will be “nice” to a woman he finds attractive, because he has already imagined in his head that this will ingratiate him with her. He has already created a ledger in his mind: “if I am nice to this woman, then she is in my debt and now owes me the desired approval in return”. But the moment this woman fails to conform to the expectations of this “Nice Guy” is the moment his comes for his pound of flesh. You see the mask drop and his nastiness surface. The anxiety is rooted, among other things, in a failure to recognize the humanity and rights of this woman. For him, her meaning and her being are totally exhausted by his sexual desire, perhaps because he sees his own meaning exhausted by her approval, hence the apparent magnitude and terrific importance of her judgement. He wants to dominate by force or by manipulation rather than allow a woman to choose to surrender voluntarily, because she has determined this is good. Magnanimity is one of the high virtues of classical virtue ethics - a sort of crowning culmination of them - and one of the features of magnanimous people is that they are at ease around others. It is well worth returning to this virtue ethics, because it does enlighten us about the nature of moral excellence. Love is willing the genuine good of the other, unselfishly. There is no fear in someone of perfect love.

singularity2001 5mo ago

Interesting when I read the book I wanted to rename it to "How to win fake friends and manipulate people." Maybe I missed the humble passages.

suzzer99 5mo ago

I always try to compliment people if I see they're taking a lot of pride in their work or something they're doing. I was at a conference where the staff each had a coffee/tea/sweets station to maintain. I noticed one woman cleaning and polishing and being super fastidious. I wanted to compliment her, but then I debated with myself if that would be patronizing somehow. Finally, I decided to tell her she had a very nice station, and she just beamed ear-to-ear in response.

ap99 5mo ago

Ok yes, pushing positivity into the universe is better than pushing nothing or negativity. But there are people who will flatter purely for gain. I think being aware of which is which is very useful. Also who is giving the compliment will factor into how I receive it.

m3047 5mo ago

Find the Leary Wheel somewhere. People have referred to the Hypernormal / Overconventional slices as the "Dale Carnegie Quadrant". Oh nevermind. Let's see what this attracts: http://athena.m3047.net/pub/fwm/leary-wheel.png http://athena.m3047.net/pub/fwm/leary-wheel.png

damirkotoric 5mo ago

Ironically enough, Dale Carnegie's book is about as far as you can get from genuine human connections. The whole book is centred aruond an underlying desire to gain something from someone. So good on you for finding that one genuine bit of interaction in the entire book.