9 ms·

I'm somewhat surprised that Windows is still most of personal computers. In my eyes, it's fundamentally inferior to Linux, and its superficial superiority only

by dmos62 7mo ago

I'm somewhat surprised that Windows is still most of personal computers. In my eyes, it's fundamentally inferior to Linux, and its superficial superiority only comes from the ecosystem, which is to say adoption, not some inherent trait. But then, since Linux adoption didn't meaningfully change in the last 20 years, I'm forced to confront the fact that either I'm wrong about its fundamentals, or the market is able to be irrational for longer than I find reasonable. Either way, Windows in my mind, represents a world I'd like to leave behind. Apple too, btw.

advael 7mo ago
As I tell all my friends panic-switching as their shit breaks, the best time to switch to linux was ten years ago. The second-best time is now
- NetMageSCW 7mo ago
  Or there’s never really been a good time to switch to Linux and now is the worst time.
  - advael 7mo ago
    Sounds as dumb to me as it does every other time someone says it, but to be fair I never really acquired the taste for corporate boot
odst 7mo ago
I've been interested in moving my windows machine to Linux. Do you have any recommendations for distros to use? Last time I used Linux was Linux Mint. It was fine, but definitely felt less polished compared to Windows or Mac OS
- Georgelemental 7mo ago
  I have been very happy with Fedora, generally has up-to-date software and usually just works
- xvedejas 7mo ago
  I've been using Linux for a long time, which might sound like I'm comfortable with all its rough edges, but it's honestly the opposite. Early on it was a new toy and I would accept issues as part of messing around with it. The past 10~15 years on the other hand, I've needed to get serious work done on it, and also use it for PC gaming, so I've gone the other way and focused on getting the most no-nonsense easy setup where I don't have to be tinkering with things all the time. Based on that, I'd say: go for a popular distro with KDE. I'm sure there are other very polished options out there, but my recommendation is Kubuntu, even though it's not the one I use today (I use Arch mostly), as it's very simple to set up and well supported.
- dmbche 7mo ago
  Manjaro is a very sane distro
- DoctorDabadedoo 7mo ago
  I would go either with Ubuntu or Fedora. The entry barrier is lower, they work well and shouldn't be too troublesome to install/maintain. Then check whether you prefer Gnome or KDE as the looks and go with what you find cooler. I've used Ubuntu most of my career and it's solid, these days I'm testing Fedora at home due to some nitpicks I have, but both are good options.
raw_anon_1111 7mo ago
> and its superficial superiority only comes from the ecosystem So the only superiority is that it runs the apps most people want to run? And this is why geeks are always the “Less space than Nomad. No Wireless. Lame” types or the HN equivalent when talking about DropBox: “For a Linux user, you can already build such a system yourself quite trivially by getting an FTP account, mounting it locally with curlftpfs, and then using SVN or CVS on the mounted filesystem. From Windows or Mac, this FTP account could be accessed through built-in software.”
- dijit 7mo ago
  Most people want a web browser. Even Microsofts esteemed moat (office) is “Web only” on the lowest tier.
  - raw_anon_1111 7mo ago
    PC gaming revenue on its own is around $45 Billion a year and there are all sorts of vertical market software that only runs on Windows. But even if all most people want is browser, why go through the hassle of running Linux? I usually recommended a Windows PC to most people because on the low end, they are cheap, disposable, and if the one odd program they might want to run isn’t available, I didn’t have to hear about it. If they know what they want, I didn’t have a problem recommending an Air and now for a lot of use cases, a Neo.
    - dijit 7mo ago
      I work in games (formerly AAA). Chicken and egg problem. Valve is making enough headway that game makers take Linux seriously. We’ll likely see a lot more native releases over time. (once the worry about anticheat subsides).
      - raw_anon_1111 7mo ago
        And still why should normal people go to Linux over Windows? Linux support is still not that great from OEMs and for the unwashed masses your local Best Buy or Apple Store.
chezelenkoooo 7mo ago
I think you're vastly underestimating the technical illiteracy most people have with computers. 99% of people buy a desktop and don't even consider what the operating system is let alone think about changing it to something else. I would imagine they don't even know that a difference exists between operating systems.
- theLiminator 7mo ago
  HN in general always does this. I got a lot of push back when I said that in general consumers don't care at all about open source, and the majority of them probably have no clue what it even means. You can really sense the SF-centric bubble HN lives in.
  - fsloth 7mo ago
    Open source is a supply chain specific issue and consumers don’t care about supply chain. Anyone with any illusions about this name quickly the top vendor for the third item in the materials itinerary of the first thing with a materials itinerary you get your hands on (for me it’s usually food. Who is the main vendor for citric acid? Or sugar. Or that red dye that causes adhd. I have no clue) General consumers could not care less about open source. It’s component. Not a product.
  - guelo 7mo ago
    HN always does this, make ridiculous generalizations about the thousands of people that comment on HN.
- operatingthetan 7mo ago
  I try new distros all the time and not a single one of them is 'GUI native' in the sense that you can do everything without touching a terminal. Some weird stuff always happens and you need to do a bunch of research to figure out how to fix it. The settings GUIs never have parity with the config files and it shows.
  - tasuki 7mo ago
kube-system 7mo ago
Normal people buy computers at a retail store and use it in the factory configuration indefinitely. They think about changing their OS in the same way you think about changing the type of hem stitching on your slacks.
- nomel 7mo ago
  > They think about changing their OS in the same way you think about changing the type of hem stitching on your slacks. This is just absolutely beautiful. My grandmother would often identify stitching on my slacks. I was, quite literally, blind to it!
  - LambdaComplex 7mo ago
    > My grandmother would often identify stitching on my slacks. I was, quite literally, blind to it! I'm telling myself that this is an intentional "blind hem" joke.
  - kube-system 7mo ago
    The world is a big place and while Linux is very visible to many of us it is irrelevant to the mindshare of the vast majority of the world. Not because of ignorance, but because it legitimately isn't that important to their life. I don't care about the hem on my pants. My pants either work, or I get a new pair. This is most people's relationship with their computer.
fgonzag 7mo ago
Change is hard. My father is a 70-year-old software engineer who programs .NET Core in Notepad and builds using custom BAT files that build the project using csc (the outright compiler). He browses and copies files in the Windows Terminal. He is also accustomed to Linux since we deploy to it in our business, and he can do everything comfortably in the Linux terminal. He trusts me almost blindly, yet I can’t convince him to swap to Linux even though every time he keeps fighting Windows. I'm actually fairly surprised since I'm certain he'd find himself at home almost immediately( he already is when managing servers) I’m fairly sure it’s Notepad keeping him there, but I’ve told him there is also a Linux clone or Wine. I had been dabbling in Linux for 30 years, and it’s been about 7 or 8 years since I switched full-time and couldn’t be happier. But honestly, we're going to get there because it’s inevitable. It’s the only OS that's currently not wholly incentivized to "enshittify" itself and is actually improving at a pretty good pace due to Wayland's novelty fostering a plethora of alternative window managers.
- QuercusMax 7mo ago
  Notepad, of all things, is a CRAZY thing to be so tied to. It's not even a good editor! MS-DOS edit.com was honestly a much better experience.
  - Jblx2 7mo ago
    Better than Edlin I suppose.
  - bombcar 7mo ago
    I've met a surprising number of people who are seriously tied to the specific editor they're used to, some going so far as to not even wanting to change the version they are on.
- Jblx2 7mo ago
  I'd love to hear more about his programming journey. vi? EMACS? Nope, notepad.exe.
  - 7mo ago
yoyohello13 7mo ago
I love Linux, I run it on all my computers and haven't run a proprietary OS at home since 2018. I've built up considerably instincts over the years to the point where I never have issues anymore. My Linux machines are far more stable than my Wife's Windows laptop at this point. Having said that, I don't begrudge people from using Windows or Mac. As much as I'd like to believe otherwise, Linux has rough edges that most people really don't want to deal with. I'm willing to give Linux some grace because I believe in open source and want to support that world with my actions. But when someone complains about why their fingerprint reader doesn't work, all I can say is "yep, that can happen". I think the little niggles in Linux are worth it for having a free (as in freedom) OS, but as it turns out, most people don't value that.
glitchc 7mo ago
> I'm somewhat surprised that Windows is still most of personal computers. In my eyes, it's fundamentally inferior to Linux, and its superficial superiority only comes from the ecosystem, which is to say adoption, not some inherent trait. I'm not a Windows fanboy by any stretch, but it is a remarkably resilient OS. Case in point: I took the OS drive (SATA SSD) from my old workstation and installed it into a laptop. This was a Dell 7910, with a dual CPU Xeon configuration, NVidia graphics card and ECC memory. The laptop the drive was transplanted into was an old T520. The OS was Windows 10. Firing it up, I expected a kernel panic given how different the drivers would be between the two and resigned myself to a couple of hours using the Recovery partition. To my surprise, it booted up to the desktop and automatically started installing the missing drivers. In the meantime, I could actually use the darn thing. In all my years of using Linux, I have yet to see that work without a hitch. A chroot to modify fstab is usually the starting point, then comes the inevitable blacklist and driver removal. Linux LiveCDs come close, but this was a full fledged Windows install with custom swap file configurations, 10G network card, etc. Barring all this user-hostile behaviour from MS, at the OS level, Windows seems well-engineered.
- radlad 7mo ago
  Why would you have to modify fstab? Surely you are using UUID/PARTUUID these days. I also wouldn't expect a kernel panic on Linux... Maybe no video though.
  - glitchc 7mo ago
    That's exactly why fstab needs to be modified. If an old machine previously had two partitions/drives, the entry for the missing drive will prevent Linux from booting.
    - nofriend 7mo ago
      depends what the fstab says. nofail is highly recommended for anything nonessential to boot.
- Macha 7mo ago
lm28469 7mo ago
I recently installed Fedora and holy shit it's still not production ready. During the initial setup you need to input your location, you have a choice between clicking on the map or typing the city, I don't remember which it is but one of them makes your system freeze, no way to get out other than a reboot. It's documented since Fedora 42, and was still there on Fedora 43 Every time my swap is full the entire system freezes for a good second, sometimes it stays stuck, no way out besides rebooting, I've never experienced that in any other OS ever It's impossible to get more than a few days of uptimes, it's like the ram is never ever freed, last time I had to reboot my mac I had close to one year of uptime. A friend sent me a png to print, every time I open it with the image viewer it uses 100% of my memory instantly (10+gb), causing the system to freeze. The image is 700kb and opens fine on gimp I completely understand why people stick to the alternatives, it's way too easy to "hold it wrong" with Linux
- maxrecursion 7mo ago
  I have been daily driving fedora on my laptop for over a year now and haven't ran into a single issue. Not saying you're lying, but if you are having that many serious problems it might be a hardware issue. The OS is definitely stable and perfectly fine to use.
  - lm28469 7mo ago
    The same hardware runs windows and hackintosh flawlessly.
    - fsflover 7mo ago
      I bet this is a Windows-certified hardware. Try something designed for GNU/Linux?
      - lm28469 7mo ago
        Idk and I don't care, you're making my point. I'm in tech and I don't even know what "hardware designed for gnu" means, normies won't either, they have a computer, they want an os. If the os shits the bed during the initial location selection they won't swap their wifi module or motherboard for a "gnu compatible" one, they'll install windows
nomel 7mo ago
> it's fundamentally inferior to Linux The context here is the average user, so you need to consider if this they share this perspective of fundamentally inferiority that is so obvious to you. Here's a litmus test: Put your non-programmer relative in front of each, have them do some common simple tasks, like print an email on their printer, and ask them. You are *NOT* an average user. edit: people are focusing on the printer too much. my point was some arbitrary task they would be common to an average user. OMMIT THE PRINTER. After they use their computer as they normally would for a week, what is it exactly that so clearly results in their perception of "obviously inferiority"? My claim is somewhere between nothing and the very first thing to go wrong.
- QuercusMax 7mo ago
  Setting up printers on Linux is way easier than windows. Usually you don't have to do anything at all special at all as long as it's a fairly well known manufacturer. ChromeOS is just linux after all, and it uses the exact same CUPS infra under the hood, and it works just fine. On Windows you often have to download and install drivers, which is always a headache.
  - xp84 7mo ago
    Tbh all OSs handle printers that way. Ones that have drivers “just work.” It’s just that if you buy any printer in the store you can be assured that if it isn’t on that list of drivers that ships with the OS, there will be a driver for Windows and Mac from the manufacturer. You don’t get that assurance automatically with another OS.
    - raw_anon_1111 7mo ago
      For the most part, to support Macs and iOS devices they just support AirPrint and don’t ship with drivers at all
  - nomel 7mo ago
    > as long as ... Manufacturers selling Linux computers could attach little stickers with ""As long as..." Inside", to commemorate the official motto of "The Year of the Linux Desktop", for the last 30 years. :P
layer8 7mo ago
There is a reason that this submission is currently on the top of the front page. There are enough “hackers” that still care about Windows, because it did a lot of things right.
applfanboysbgon 7mo ago
Windows is not technically inferior to Linux. To the extent it has problems, it is mainly because of top-down anti-user behaviour mandated from corporate. But anyone capable of using Linux is capable of hacking out that BS and getting a generally superior experience. I use both literally side-by-side, two laptops with a KVM switch, and I still greatly prefer Windows for many reasons. Some reasons: Even as a low-level programmer fully capable of resolving problems, I want to spend my time working on my programs, not working on making my OS work, and Linux frequently demands that I spend hours chasing down issues. Windows does a better job of managing memory/swaps, at least out of the box. Windows has a stable userland with 30 years of backwards compatibility. Windows makes good use of both GUIs and CLIs, letting you choose whichever is faster for the task, while Linux distros and devs have some kind of bizarre ideological purity culture and generally refuse to make good GUIs. Windows has a built-in tool for easily making full system images while the system is running, without requiring the image destination be larger than the system drive including unused space. Windows developers are not so in love with dynamically linked system libraries that dependency management becomes a pain in the ass. Windows generally has a polished UX with a lot fewer papercuts.
- chistev 7mo ago
  What about Macs, you use those?
  - applfanboysbgon 7mo ago
    I have never tried one, I'm not interested in Apple's walled garden approach. Buying a Macbook and being unable to put a (properly working) alternative OS on it if I don't like the one on it is a non-starter to me.
    - drzaiusx11 7mo ago
      Asahi Linux is definitely a "properly working" Linux distro at this point. MacBook hardware tends to be better than almost all the alternatives I've tried.
observationist 7mo ago
It's pure irrationality. The only winning move is not to play - leave behind all the Windows and Apples garbage, and life gets remarkably better. I'm almost 6 months in switching from Windows to Linux and it's so awesome that my computer doesn't fight me anymore. I've done 10% of the troubleshooting under Linux that I had to do under Windows, and that was just early on; once things work, they stay working, and there's no sense of dread about what was going to break next after every patch Tuesday.
- nomel 7mo ago
  > It's pure irrationality. For the masses, it's pure practicality. My mother calls up geeksquad when she has a problem with windows. Who do you call when you have a problem with debian or ubuntu or arch setup to use kde or gnome or xfc using wayland or x11 with systemd or launchd or ... When her printer dies, does she go to the store and buy a new one, or does she get online to research what's compatible with her distro? The expertise required to cover the surface area known as "linux on the desktop" is going to make that a much more expensive call, and a "i can't help you with that" from anywhere she can buy a printer in person.
  - observationist 7mo ago
    Maybe at one point in time; I've had objectively fewer issues with Linux than I had with Windows, and they only happened because I was doing nerd shit; in normal person average user mode, I haven't had any issues whatsoever. I installed linux on a laptop, and it's been an absolute joy to use. Network, printers, browsers, regular apps, all that stuff just works. Windows would reliably fuck up something important on a weekly basis, whether it was drivers, security, printers, app compatibility; I'd spend a minimum of 30 minutes a week simply overcoming some arbitrary bullshit Microsoft decided to inflict on me. I honestly think there are many distros that are more than up to the task of handling normal users and providing an objectively better, easier, less hassling experience than windows out of the box. Windows is horrifically awful. Everything it does is completely, thoroughly enshittified. User experience and quality control are a distant memory. If you're so jaded to it and just letting it happen, I highly recommend getting on Linux ASAP- it's not like it was 5 or 10 or 20 years ago; the desktop experience is just good. If you absolutely need Excel or some other Windows software, look for the cloud version, find an alternate workflow. >>Who do you call when you have a problem with debian or ubuntu or arch setup to use kde or gnome or xfc using wayland or x11 with systemd or launchd or ... Any AI. they all have libraries worth of troubleshooting sessions and successful linux troubleshooting workflows and documentation and so on in the training data. Agentic training and operator training flows often include Linux environments, specifically. Any IT person worth half a damn is going to be using AI and will be more than capable of resolving anything it is possible to resolve. Support your local independent IT businesses, too. But again, get the Linux PC working and I'd bet a good donut that it takes less work to maintain and is easier to use - even for our moms.
Jblx2 7mo ago
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=47448328 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=47448328
LambdaComplex 7mo ago
Enterprises love Windows for the ability to centrally manage an entire fleet's configuration using Active Directory. Is there anything for Linux that comes close to that?
- kuerbel 7mo ago
  Univention Corporate Server.
- esseph 7mo ago
  Ansible is what gets used for large Linux fleets for config management. It's not a 1:1 analog.
malfist 7mo ago
If my middle monitor didn't require a screen resolution change and revert to not be black after every boot or wake I'd use Linux all the time, but right now I can't make it work without a big hassle and believe me, I tried
- dddddaviddddd 7mo ago
  When I had a similar issue on FreeBSD, I wrote some automatic pre- and post-suspend scripts (audio interface could cause full system crash going into suspend unless correctly managed beforehand). I’m sure you could do something similar on Linux.
fsloth 7mo ago
Ok. Look. I guess we all care about software business here. And computer? It’s what consumers buy from store. Preferably in cybermonday or similar sale. To run the software they ran on their previous computer. They hope slightly faster. But honestly? They couldnt tell. Anyway the new computer is shinier. OS? What’s that? (They honestly could not care less) They dont buy apple for the os. They buy it for the brand.
inferniac 7mo ago
"it's fundamentally inferior to Linux" I installed linux mint on a new drive in January Firefox was tearing awfully on just scrolling Surely I just need to install Nvidia drivers Install drivers, but they dont work due to some secure boot interaction with driver signing, that made me jump through quite a few hoops (thx to AI for walking me through it fairly well) I'm sorry but an average person is not ready for this level of bs in their daily life
- coreyburnsdev 7mo ago
  Linux mint is not a good distro
  - Arainach 7mo ago
    Having to figure out which distros are "good" or not, with the internet full of people arguing about those points, is another entry on the "why Linux isn't a good choice for most people" list.
- thomond 7mo ago
  Part of the problem is the unpredictability. I have Nvidia too and I never had these problems.
- subscribed 7mo ago
  Well, on windows you just need to install Nvidia drivers so it stops crashing. Mint might be the wrong choice. AFAIR on both Fedora and Ubuntu you can just add "nonfree" repositories (one checkmark) and you'll have proprietary, closed source binaries installed. At least this is how it worked kn my Linux laptops. I've never had to specifically install NVIDIA drivers and conversely, firmware upgrade was comes from the repository as well, so the installation is one commandline command and reboot, no obscure websites and weird firmware installers.
hatthew 7mo ago
I am a very technical person, living on a computer for the majority of my life by this point, and I've spent at least 3000 hours on each of the big 3 OSes. I like windows, because 95% of things just work. I love the philosophy of linux, I love its technical specificity, I love that with enough effort it's possible to do almost anything on it. But at the end of the day the computer is a means to an end, and windows is the sweet spot between customizability and fiddliness that lets me focus on the end rather than the means.
e-dant 7mo ago
Linux does not have a marketing team. Microsoft, Apple, Google do. The market is not efficient, it is gullible.
- Arainach 7mo ago
  Linux is a lot like Rick and Morty: I don't mind it, but I never want to be publicly associated with any of it's biggest fans.
santoshalper 7mo ago
The ecosystem is the operating sytem.
chrysoprace 7mo ago
You've gotta understand that most people outside of IT have very little to no computer literacy. They want something that just works, and Linux doesn't do that. I've completely replaced Windows with Bazzite since November and it's been great for me, but it's not been without issues. Those issues are doable for me, but if I put Bazzite, Fedora, Linux Mint or any of the other beginner friendly distros on anybody else's PC they'll encounter a roadblock that they won't know how to resolve and that'll taint their Linux experience. Not to mention spotty hardware drivers (I've had several wifi drivers just stop working with an update, which is infuriating if you don't have a reliable wired connection), volunteer software for many configurations (OpenRGB doesn't support my motherboard), nVidia drivers and finding alternatives to software people know and use like Office and Photoshop. These might not seem like a big deal, but they're dealbreakers for many and they'd rather put up with some dodgy window resize behaviour or their OS spying on them.
paxys 7mo ago
Windows is superior to Linux because people can actually use it. Everything else is secondary.
- esseph 7mo ago
  Largely because that's all they've experienced since it was probably the first computer OS they used throughout their entire life.
  - M95D 7mo ago
    Lots of people used MS-DOS before they had Windows, and still didn't prefer Linux.
aduwah 7mo ago
I had a chat with a Linux fan the other day. They said Linux is better because you can replace kernels easily to get driver support for something that wasn't working. The problem is that I do not want to mess around to make things work. This is the power of Windows. Everything is built around it and it does not need or want you to keep hacking it. Don't get me wrong I am working on Mac and my personal dev laptop is a Linux Mint, but sometimes it physically hurt to find something that sends me down a rabbit hole yet again on Linux. I just think the whole "you have to hack it because you can and otherwise you don't really own it" thing is a big hurdle on Linux that keeps mainstream peeps to stay away Not sure if I made sense, but yeah basically in order to challenge Windows Linux would need to "just work" which is not the case right now (or ever was)
Waterluvian 7mo ago
It’s absolutely wild to me just how unaware tech people can be to how far from normal their experience is. Like this is just not even close to understanding what the game even is. We’d all be better off if we could somehow impart a lot more empathy for everyone to be even just aware of other life contexts.
- esseph 7mo ago
  > just how unaware tech people can be to how far from normal their experience is This is the same with expertise in any field that requires decades of education.
  - Waterluvian 7mo ago
    That’s probably generally true. But I suspect any field that requires interacting closely with non-peers suffers less from this. I bet tech people who do user-oriented stuff like interviews, UX, etc. suffer less from it.
adamddev1 7mo ago
Drivers for laptops. Do all the sound cards work flawlessly? Is the power usage/battery life similar? Sadly this is a big part of what holds it back.
pdonis 7mo ago
> I'm somewhat surprised that Windows is still most of personal computers. The reason is simple: Microsoft has a lock on PCs used by corporate and government employees, so the vast majority of people who use computers at work use Windows computers. And so they naturally buy the same kind of computer for home that they're used to using at work. People like me, who run Linux at home even though I'm forced to use Windows at work, are outliers. And probably always will be. So the only way for the Linux desktop to really take off would be for large corporate customers and governments to switch from Windows to Linux. I would love it if that happened, but I'm not holding my breath.
natas 7mo ago
In business, the “best” solution doesn’t win—the one that aligns with incentives does. You can argue Linux is technically better than Windows, but Windows wins in many orgs because of familiarity, vendor support, existing tooling, and lower perceived risk. Adoption beats superiority.
- bombcar 7mo ago
  That's just a way of saying that "best" is a wider net than the "fans" want it to be.
IAmGraydon 7mo ago
While Linux may seem like a better experience to the technically inclined, it is an utter mess to the average computer user. Linux is like a Lotus Elise: fast, bare bones, responsive, and a pure sports car for racecar drivers. They don't care that it has no air conditioning, no power windows, no power locks, no remote start, no padding on the seats. Put an average driver in it and they hate it. Then there's Windows, which is kind of like a Mercedes - a technical wonder, but over the years they've tacked so many things on it that now we have a cooled cup holder, 4D surround sound, and a god damn glowing logo on the front. But the core has been forgotten for all of the creature comforts. Put a racecar driver in this and they hate it. Put your average driver in it and they think it's the bees knees. You, I, and everyone on HN are all racecar drivers. Our view of Windows is heavily skewed by our technical knowledge, but it is exactly what it's supposed to be - the operating system of the masses. The masses will never love Linux...it's very philosophy is antithetical to what makes a good operating system for the average user. The idea that Linux could ever take serious ground from Windows is never going to happen. It is purely wishful thinking, but it will always have its place in infrastructure and for geeks like you and I. All of that said, for daily driving, I'll take the Mercedes.
tw061023 7mo ago
Linux the kernel is fundamentally inferior to NT from 30 years ago, Linux the userspace is barely tolerable, Linux as an ecosystem is an amateur clownshow barely held together by corporate donations of drivers and absolute dedication of a handful of volunteers of wildly differing skill. If your biggest innovation of a decade is a carbon copy of a feature introduced in NT 3.5 in 1994 AND THEN it turns out most serious people disable it because you cannot even copy a feature without introducing new vulnerabilities - that's a sign of quality.
- dmos62 7mo ago
  I've only heard once or twice people talking highly of NT. Care to go into more depth?
  - bombcar 7mo ago
    NT was originally designed along the lines of a microkernel though in NT 4 they violated the rules and put the graphics driver in ring 0 (iirc) and didn't undo that until around Vista, I believe. Technology-wise, Windows NT and it's APIs is well developed and designed.
5555624 7mo ago
>I'm somewhat surprised that Windows is still most of personal computers. It's the easiest route. On non-Apple computers, Windows is already installed. (It takes a bit of effort to buy a computer without an OS.) Microsoft makes it easy for a user to get Microsoft 365. With that, users have the computer they have at the office and are familiar with. Most are just surfing the web and writing an occasional letter, anyway. That doesn't include people who are perfectly fine with a Chromebook or just their phone. Finding a Linux distribution, downloading it, putting it on a USB stick (or burning a disc), then installing it is not simple for most people. (Don't even ask them to verify the checksum.)
pacifika 7mo ago
People just have disliked computing in general as a result of their Windows experience. I’m not seeing any brick and mortar stores selling Linux laptops or any mindshare for any Linux brand. Maybe if Ubuntu started selling hardware in supermarkets Linux would have a chance of capturing people’s consciousness outside of the power user / professional circles. But they’re years too late now.
WillAdams 7mo ago
It comes preinstalled on new hardware, and has drivers. For folks who use odd-ball hardware, e.g., the new generation Wacom EMR stylus equipped Samsung Galaxy Book 3 Pro 360 I'm writing this out on (really, using a stylus to write this out) it's pretty much the only option, which I wish was not the case. That said, I bought a pair of Raspberry Pi 5s a while back, and am hopeful that the Soulscircuit Pilet I backed on Kickstarter will work well w/ a Wacom One, and if it does so, I'll upgrade to a Movink 13 or something similar.
mvkel 7mo ago
> ecosystem To call an ecosystem superficial evidence is puzzling to me. The ecosystem is -everything- for an operating system. Developers, apps, distribution, users; all of it is ecosystem.
beloch 7mo ago
1. It's not "fundamentally inferior". It's just, historically, focused on a different type of user. Linux is for people who want a lot of control and power but don't mind learning how to use a command line or config file. Windows is more focused on typical users who just want things to work with GUI config tools and still be somewhat flexible. You also need to keep in mind that many new users have grown up on iOS and it doesn't even occur to them that things can be customized in more than superficial ways. 2. Linux has, historically, been fundamentally inferior for some purposes. Lots of (sometimes very expensive) equipment has proprietary drivers that only run on windows. You'll find old versions of windows running hardware in labs all over the world. This is minor though, compared to the mainstream office and home user, as well as gamers. If a typical joe uses windows and MS office at work, its only natural to do the same thing at home. Why learn a new OS for your home computer if you're only using it a few hours a week? Gamers, of course, are still locked into Windows for some titles despite Steam's best efforts. Some gaming hardware still doesn't support Linux properly (I'm looking at you, Razer). Linux is getting really close to Windows for gaming though. 3. Windows was actually a pretty nice OS for a while, until the recent slide into Microslop silliness. ----------- "Integrating AI where it’s most meaningful, with craft and focus: You will see us be more intentional about how and where Copilot integrates across Windows, focusing on experiences that are genuinely useful and well‑crafted. As part of this, we are reducing unnecessary Copilot entry points, starting with apps like Snipping Tool, Photos, Widgets and Notepad." While mealy-mouthed at best, I take this as indicating MS has finally started paying attention to the growing backlash and is going to back off on trying to AI ALL THE THINGS. A lot of users simply don't need or want Copilot everywhere. Many users also now have a compelling alternative in Linux. Inertia keeps them with Windows, but a significant irritant could make them switch. If MS wants to keep those users, they need to stop pushing AI so hard and focus on keeping the rest of Windows in good shape.
UqWBcuFx6NV4r 7mo ago
I’d suggest you get out of your echo chamber. If you can’t see why Linux doesn’t make mainstream appeal. For civilians, computers are hard enough to use without them being desktop Linux.
autoexec 7mo ago
> I'm forced to confront the fact that either I'm wrong about its fundamentals, or the market is able to be irrational for longer than I find reasonable. Either way, Windows in my mind, represents a world I'd like to leave behind. Apple too, btw. I think that the market (though it is certainly irrational) is moving away from windows. It's very likely the reason why this post was written and they're now (4+ years after the release windows 11) addressing even the most basic complaints (like the taskbar). I have zero faith that the attitudes driving the fundamental problems that brought us to the point where MS has to be genuinely worried about the future of Window's market share have changed. Microsoft still sees your computer as belonging to them. They still feel entitled to all of your data and the contents of your hard drive. They still want to use their OS as an ad platform. They're still deeply envious of Apple and want an app store with similar control over what you can and can't install on your computer. Like you, they've lost me. The moment any meaningful amount of gaming was viable on linux they lost the only thing that could have kept me using Windows in any capacity (and even then my gaming PC would have been treated like a console. Almost zero personal info and mostly offline). They fucked up badly and promises like "you can move your taskbar" or "we'll be less obnoxious with updates" is not going to being me back.
- roarcher 7mo ago
  > They fucked up badly and promises like "you can move your taskbar" or "we'll be less obnoxious with updates" is not going to being me back. Especially considering you could move the taskbar until Windows 11 when they inexplicably killed it. It only took them 5 goddamn years to put it back. To be fair, this does indeed demonstrate their "commitment to quality", just as they intended.
gonzalohm 7mo ago
It's like iOS. It's a closed ecosystem much like windows so to me android seems like the obvious choice. But that doesn't seem to be the case in the US. This is changing though, android is becoming very much like android
munificent 7mo ago
You are underestimating the real fundamental value of "I can call my friend/family member and ask tech support questions and get help".
suhputt 7mo ago
[dead]
phendrenad2 7mo ago
If you're having trouble confronting the facts, it might help to search up some of the criticisms people have of Linux, and - critically - ignore the replies to it. There's a psychological effect where if you don't understand where someone is coming from, if someone says "that's stupid" then it gives your mind license to conclude that the person you don't understand is just crazy. Staring into the abyss of the Linux criticisms long enough, and you'll start to see it from their perspective.
ubermonkey 7mo ago
It's nice to think about a FOSS-first world, but what people want is turnkey computing. That's why Apple does well -- the happy path on the Mac, or in iOS, is very very smooth for both technical people and octogenarians. The fun thing about the Mac is that technical people can do more or less whatever they want, while the out of the box experience is still super simple and easy for people who do not have a comfortable relationship with computing. This is a good thing. Consider the easy integration you get with Apple headphones and Apple devices. Regular Bluetooth pairing is far more fiddly and annoying. Consider how you'd set up easy use of a password manager across devices. This is "it just works" territory with the Apple ecosystem. It's awkward and weird on Windows. It's a giant DIY project on Linux. This is why Apple succeeds. They think about end user experience far more than Microsoft does. Linux, as a non-product (this is not a ding), doesn't "think" about this at all, for the most part. I DO think it's pretty obvious that desktop Linux would be much farther along had Apple not pivoted to a FreeBSD based OS a quarter century ago. That brought a lot of very technical people onto the platfor that would've otherwise gone to Linux. There was a time when any given tech conf was a sea of illuminated Apples on the backs of laptop screens, because getting your average LAMP stack running was trivial on a Mac and painful on Windows. It was an opportunity for Microsoft, but Ballmer couldn't see it, and so here we are.
cryptoegorophy 7mo ago
Why Apple?
- dmos62 7mo ago
  Walled garden, closed-source, user-hostility. That's my main gripe with Windows too. It's a bit lazy to lump them together, because when you get into the weeds they act differently, but both fall way below my standards of what I want my tools to be like. With Apple, the anti-ownership, anti-repair lobbying stands out to me as especially bad. Apple's walled garden is especially strong, and the hardware exclusivity is 1950s in the worst way. It's like hardware standartization never happened. Hate to think if every PC vendor was like this.
kenjackson 7mo ago
I’ve read your posts for the past 25 years - originally on slashdot (not literally you). As you proposed, I think you’re fundamentally wrong. I got my MIL a Chromebook and it was probably the single worst technical support decision I ever made. For some, it will always be the year of Linux on the desktop. But rather the reality is the desktop will run its course before Linux has a foothold there.
wraptile 7mo ago
Microsoft hasn't been able to get marketplace in any other consumer product line. This seems pretty clear that Windows team is mostly just coasting on the fact that Windows is being forced upon people and frankly most people don't even understand what's an operating system so this strategy has been and will continue working well.
ekianjo 7mo ago
You have a market that's locked by Microsoft working with OEMs and Microsoft spraying money around to ensure that nobody ever seriously consider switching. Add to that that Windows is used as a surveillance tool by the three letter agencies and you have the perfect storm for things not to change.
eviks 7mo ago
> superficial superiority only comes from the ecosystem, not some inherent trait But since real users live at the level of the ecosystem, what's hard about understanding that they can't replace a lacking ecosystem with "inherent traits"?
csomar 7mo ago
Many people have processes on these machines that would be too costly, disruptive and with questionable ROI to migrate. They'll stay there until it's no longer an option.
thunfischtoast 7mo ago
I use both, Windows 11 and Pop! OS (which is Ubuntu, with Cosmic). Pop! OS is definitely not ready for the average user in my opinion. Some common work-related apps I need like Citrix Workspace straight up don't work. Audio + Camera randomly give out in the middle of video conferences, only fixable by a complete reboot. Some things are only fixable in the terminal. I use it as much as I can, but there is still work to be done. I agree that Windows is on the wrong path.
Tomis02 7mo ago
> fundamentally inferior to Linux The UX/UI of Windows 98 is far, far ahead of whatever Linux DWM we have today. It's nowhere near close. My KDE is usable but everything feels off, from icon shapes and sizes to mouse cursor icons, mouse cursor speed, the way settings are organised, almost everything. And it's not a matter of habit, as I've been on KDE for years, and I kept trying to make it work. Windows just clicks out of the box, it's more comfortable. Microsoft, once upon a time, put an enormous amount of money into creating a user experience that makes sense for a maximum amount of people. Even though this experience suffered enormously over the last decade, it's still better than everything else, including OSX. And I'm not praising Microsoft, everyone else (including Canonical) is just that bad.

by dmos62 7mo ago

advael 7mo ago

As I tell all my friends panic-switching as their shit breaks, the best time to switch to linux was ten years ago. The second-best time is now

NetMageSCW 7mo ago
Or there’s never really been a good time to switch to Linux and now is the worst time.
- advael 7mo ago
  Sounds as dumb to me as it does every other time someone says it, but to be fair I never really acquired the taste for corporate boot

odst 7mo ago

I've been interested in moving my windows machine to Linux. Do you have any recommendations for distros to use? Last time I used Linux was Linux Mint. It was fine, but definitely felt less polished compared to Windows or Mac OS

Georgelemental 7mo ago
I have been very happy with Fedora, generally has up-to-date software and usually just works
xvedejas 7mo ago
I've been using Linux for a long time, which might sound like I'm comfortable with all its rough edges, but it's honestly the opposite. Early on it was a new toy and I would accept issues as part of messing around with it. The past 10~15 years on the other hand, I've needed to get serious work done on it, and also use it for PC gaming, so I've gone the other way and focused on getting the most no-nonsense easy setup where I don't have to be tinkering with things all the time. Based on that, I'd say: go for a popular distro with KDE. I'm sure there are other very polished options out there, but my recommendation is Kubuntu, even though it's not the one I use today (I use Arch mostly), as it's very simple to set up and well supported.
dmbche 7mo ago
Manjaro is a very sane distro
DoctorDabadedoo 7mo ago
I would go either with Ubuntu or Fedora. The entry barrier is lower, they work well and shouldn't be too troublesome to install/maintain. Then check whether you prefer Gnome or KDE as the looks and go with what you find cooler. I've used Ubuntu most of my career and it's solid, these days I'm testing Fedora at home due to some nitpicks I have, but both are good options.

raw_anon_1111 7mo ago

> and its superficial superiority only comes from the ecosystem So the only superiority is that it runs the apps most people want to run? And this is why geeks are always the “Less space than Nomad. No Wireless. Lame” types or the HN equivalent when talking about DropBox: “For a Linux user, you can already build such a system yourself quite trivially by getting an FTP account, mounting it locally with curlftpfs, and then using SVN or CVS on the mounted filesystem. From Windows or Mac, this FTP account could be accessed through built-in software.”

dijit 7mo ago
Most people want a web browser. Even Microsofts esteemed moat (office) is “Web only” on the lowest tier.
- raw_anon_1111 7mo ago
  PC gaming revenue on its own is around $45 Billion a year and there are all sorts of vertical market software that only runs on Windows. But even if all most people want is browser, why go through the hassle of running Linux? I usually recommended a Windows PC to most people because on the low end, they are cheap, disposable, and if the one odd program they might want to run isn’t available, I didn’t have to hear about it. If they know what they want, I didn’t have a problem recommending an Air and now for a lot of use cases, a Neo.
  - dijit 7mo ago
    I work in games (formerly AAA). Chicken and egg problem. Valve is making enough headway that game makers take Linux seriously. We’ll likely see a lot more native releases over time. (once the worry about anticheat subsides).
    - raw_anon_1111 7mo ago
      And still why should normal people go to Linux over Windows? Linux support is still not that great from OEMs and for the unwashed masses your local Best Buy or Apple Store.

chezelenkoooo 7mo ago

I think you're vastly underestimating the technical illiteracy most people have with computers. 99% of people buy a desktop and don't even consider what the operating system is let alone think about changing it to something else. I would imagine they don't even know that a difference exists between operating systems.

theLiminator 7mo ago
HN in general always does this. I got a lot of push back when I said that in general consumers don't care at all about open source, and the majority of them probably have no clue what it even means. You can really sense the SF-centric bubble HN lives in.
- fsloth 7mo ago
  Open source is a supply chain specific issue and consumers don’t care about supply chain. Anyone with any illusions about this name quickly the top vendor for the third item in the materials itinerary of the first thing with a materials itinerary you get your hands on (for me it’s usually food. Who is the main vendor for citric acid? Or sugar. Or that red dye that causes adhd. I have no clue) General consumers could not care less about open source. It’s component. Not a product.
- guelo 7mo ago
  HN always does this, make ridiculous generalizations about the thousands of people that comment on HN.
operatingthetan 7mo ago
I try new distros all the time and not a single one of them is 'GUI native' in the sense that you can do everything without touching a terminal. Some weird stuff always happens and you need to do a bunch of research to figure out how to fix it. The settings GUIs never have parity with the config files and it shows.
- tasuki 7mo ago

kube-system 7mo ago

Normal people buy computers at a retail store and use it in the factory configuration indefinitely. They think about changing their OS in the same way you think about changing the type of hem stitching on your slacks.

nomel 7mo ago
> They think about changing their OS in the same way you think about changing the type of hem stitching on your slacks. This is just absolutely beautiful. My grandmother would often identify stitching on my slacks. I was, quite literally, blind to it!
- LambdaComplex 7mo ago
  > My grandmother would often identify stitching on my slacks. I was, quite literally, blind to it! I'm telling myself that this is an intentional "blind hem" joke.
- kube-system 7mo ago
  The world is a big place and while Linux is very visible to many of us it is irrelevant to the mindshare of the vast majority of the world. Not because of ignorance, but because it legitimately isn't that important to their life. I don't care about the hem on my pants. My pants either work, or I get a new pair. This is most people's relationship with their computer.

fgonzag 7mo ago

Change is hard. My father is a 70-year-old software engineer who programs .NET Core in Notepad and builds using custom BAT files that build the project using csc (the outright compiler). He browses and copies files in the Windows Terminal. He is also accustomed to Linux since we deploy to it in our business, and he can do everything comfortably in the Linux terminal. He trusts me almost blindly, yet I can’t convince him to swap to Linux even though every time he keeps fighting Windows. I'm actually fairly surprised since I'm certain he'd find himself at home almost immediately( he already is when managing servers) I’m fairly sure it’s Notepad keeping him there, but I’ve told him there is also a Linux clone or Wine. I had been dabbling in Linux for 30 years, and it’s been about 7 or 8 years since I switched full-time and couldn’t be happier. But honestly, we're going to get there because it’s inevitable. It’s the only OS that's currently not wholly incentivized to "enshittify" itself and is actually improving at a pretty good pace due to Wayland's novelty fostering a plethora of alternative window managers.

QuercusMax 7mo ago
Notepad, of all things, is a CRAZY thing to be so tied to. It's not even a good editor! MS-DOS edit.com was honestly a much better experience.
- Jblx2 7mo ago
  Better than Edlin I suppose.
- bombcar 7mo ago
  I've met a surprising number of people who are seriously tied to the specific editor they're used to, some going so far as to not even wanting to change the version they are on.
Jblx2 7mo ago
I'd love to hear more about his programming journey. vi? EMACS? Nope, notepad.exe.
- 7mo ago

yoyohello13 7mo ago

I love Linux, I run it on all my computers and haven't run a proprietary OS at home since 2018. I've built up considerably instincts over the years to the point where I never have issues anymore. My Linux machines are far more stable than my Wife's Windows laptop at this point. Having said that, I don't begrudge people from using Windows or Mac. As much as I'd like to believe otherwise, Linux has rough edges that most people really don't want to deal with. I'm willing to give Linux some grace because I believe in open source and want to support that world with my actions. But when someone complains about why their fingerprint reader doesn't work, all I can say is "yep, that can happen". I think the little niggles in Linux are worth it for having a free (as in freedom) OS, but as it turns out, most people don't value that.

glitchc 7mo ago

> I'm somewhat surprised that Windows is still most of personal computers. In my eyes, it's fundamentally inferior to Linux, and its superficial superiority only comes from the ecosystem, which is to say adoption, not some inherent trait. I'm not a Windows fanboy by any stretch, but it is a remarkably resilient OS. Case in point: I took the OS drive (SATA SSD) from my old workstation and installed it into a laptop. This was a Dell 7910, with a dual CPU Xeon configuration, NVidia graphics card and ECC memory. The laptop the drive was transplanted into was an old T520. The OS was Windows 10. Firing it up, I expected a kernel panic given how different the drivers would be between the two and resigned myself to a couple of hours using the Recovery partition. To my surprise, it booted up to the desktop and automatically started installing the missing drivers. In the meantime, I could actually use the darn thing. In all my years of using Linux, I have yet to see that work without a hitch. A chroot to modify fstab is usually the starting point, then comes the inevitable blacklist and driver removal. Linux LiveCDs come close, but this was a full fledged Windows install with custom swap file configurations, 10G network card, etc. Barring all this user-hostile behaviour from MS, at the OS level, Windows seems well-engineered.

radlad 7mo ago
Why would you have to modify fstab? Surely you are using UUID/PARTUUID these days. I also wouldn't expect a kernel panic on Linux... Maybe no video though.
- glitchc 7mo ago
  That's exactly why fstab needs to be modified. If an old machine previously had two partitions/drives, the entry for the missing drive will prevent Linux from booting.
  - nofriend 7mo ago
    depends what the fstab says. nofail is highly recommended for anything nonessential to boot.
Macha 7mo ago

lm28469 7mo ago

I recently installed Fedora and holy shit it's still not production ready. During the initial setup you need to input your location, you have a choice between clicking on the map or typing the city, I don't remember which it is but one of them makes your system freeze, no way to get out other than a reboot. It's documented since Fedora 42, and was still there on Fedora 43 Every time my swap is full the entire system freezes for a good second, sometimes it stays stuck, no way out besides rebooting, I've never experienced that in any other OS ever It's impossible to get more than a few days of uptimes, it's like the ram is never ever freed, last time I had to reboot my mac I had close to one year of uptime. A friend sent me a png to print, every time I open it with the image viewer it uses 100% of my memory instantly (10+gb), causing the system to freeze. The image is 700kb and opens fine on gimp I completely understand why people stick to the alternatives, it's way too easy to "hold it wrong" with Linux

maxrecursion 7mo ago
I have been daily driving fedora on my laptop for over a year now and haven't ran into a single issue. Not saying you're lying, but if you are having that many serious problems it might be a hardware issue. The OS is definitely stable and perfectly fine to use.
- lm28469 7mo ago
  The same hardware runs windows and hackintosh flawlessly.
  - fsflover 7mo ago
    I bet this is a Windows-certified hardware. Try something designed for GNU/Linux?
    - lm28469 7mo ago
      Idk and I don't care, you're making my point. I'm in tech and I don't even know what "hardware designed for gnu" means, normies won't either, they have a computer, they want an os. If the os shits the bed during the initial location selection they won't swap their wifi module or motherboard for a "gnu compatible" one, they'll install windows

nomel 7mo ago

> it's fundamentally inferior to Linux The context here is the average user, so you need to consider if this they share this perspective of fundamentally inferiority that is so obvious to you. Here's a litmus test: Put your non-programmer relative in front of each, have them do some common simple tasks, like print an email on their printer, and ask them. You are *NOT* an average user. edit: people are focusing on the printer too much. my point was some arbitrary task they would be common to an average user. OMMIT THE PRINTER. After they use their computer as they normally would for a week, what is it exactly that so clearly results in their perception of "obviously inferiority"? My claim is somewhere between nothing and the very first thing to go wrong.

QuercusMax 7mo ago
Setting up printers on Linux is way easier than windows. Usually you don't have to do anything at all special at all as long as it's a fairly well known manufacturer. ChromeOS is just linux after all, and it uses the exact same CUPS infra under the hood, and it works just fine. On Windows you often have to download and install drivers, which is always a headache.
- xp84 7mo ago
  Tbh all OSs handle printers that way. Ones that have drivers “just work.” It’s just that if you buy any printer in the store you can be assured that if it isn’t on that list of drivers that ships with the OS, there will be a driver for Windows and Mac from the manufacturer. You don’t get that assurance automatically with another OS.
  - raw_anon_1111 7mo ago
    For the most part, to support Macs and iOS devices they just support AirPrint and don’t ship with drivers at all
- nomel 7mo ago
  > as long as ... Manufacturers selling Linux computers could attach little stickers with ""As long as..." Inside", to commemorate the official motto of "The Year of the Linux Desktop", for the last 30 years. :P

layer8 7mo ago

There is a reason that this submission is currently on the top of the front page. There are enough “hackers” that still care about Windows, because it did a lot of things right.

applfanboysbgon 7mo ago

Windows is not technically inferior to Linux. To the extent it has problems, it is mainly because of top-down anti-user behaviour mandated from corporate. But anyone capable of using Linux is capable of hacking out that BS and getting a generally superior experience. I use both literally side-by-side, two laptops with a KVM switch, and I still greatly prefer Windows for many reasons. Some reasons: Even as a low-level programmer fully capable of resolving problems, I want to spend my time working on my programs, not working on making my OS work, and Linux frequently demands that I spend hours chasing down issues. Windows does a better job of managing memory/swaps, at least out of the box. Windows has a stable userland with 30 years of backwards compatibility. Windows makes good use of both GUIs and CLIs, letting you choose whichever is faster for the task, while Linux distros and devs have some kind of bizarre ideological purity culture and generally refuse to make good GUIs. Windows has a built-in tool for easily making full system images while the system is running, without requiring the image destination be larger than the system drive including unused space. Windows developers are not so in love with dynamically linked system libraries that dependency management becomes a pain in the ass. Windows generally has a polished UX with a lot fewer papercuts.

chistev 7mo ago
What about Macs, you use those?
- applfanboysbgon 7mo ago
  I have never tried one, I'm not interested in Apple's walled garden approach. Buying a Macbook and being unable to put a (properly working) alternative OS on it if I don't like the one on it is a non-starter to me.
  - drzaiusx11 7mo ago
    Asahi Linux is definitely a "properly working" Linux distro at this point. MacBook hardware tends to be better than almost all the alternatives I've tried.

observationist 7mo ago

It's pure irrationality. The only winning move is not to play - leave behind all the Windows and Apples garbage, and life gets remarkably better. I'm almost 6 months in switching from Windows to Linux and it's so awesome that my computer doesn't fight me anymore. I've done 10% of the troubleshooting under Linux that I had to do under Windows, and that was just early on; once things work, they stay working, and there's no sense of dread about what was going to break next after every patch Tuesday.

nomel 7mo ago
> It's pure irrationality. For the masses, it's pure practicality. My mother calls up geeksquad when she has a problem with windows. Who do you call when you have a problem with debian or ubuntu or arch setup to use kde or gnome or xfc using wayland or x11 with systemd or launchd or ... When her printer dies, does she go to the store and buy a new one, or does she get online to research what's compatible with her distro? The expertise required to cover the surface area known as "linux on the desktop" is going to make that a much more expensive call, and a "i can't help you with that" from anywhere she can buy a printer in person.
- observationist 7mo ago
  Maybe at one point in time; I've had objectively fewer issues with Linux than I had with Windows, and they only happened because I was doing nerd shit; in normal person average user mode, I haven't had any issues whatsoever. I installed linux on a laptop, and it's been an absolute joy to use. Network, printers, browsers, regular apps, all that stuff just works. Windows would reliably fuck up something important on a weekly basis, whether it was drivers, security, printers, app compatibility; I'd spend a minimum of 30 minutes a week simply overcoming some arbitrary bullshit Microsoft decided to inflict on me. I honestly think there are many distros that are more than up to the task of handling normal users and providing an objectively better, easier, less hassling experience than windows out of the box. Windows is horrifically awful. Everything it does is completely, thoroughly enshittified. User experience and quality control are a distant memory. If you're so jaded to it and just letting it happen, I highly recommend getting on Linux ASAP- it's not like it was 5 or 10 or 20 years ago; the desktop experience is just good. If you absolutely need Excel or some other Windows software, look for the cloud version, find an alternate workflow. >>Who do you call when you have a problem with debian or ubuntu or arch setup to use kde or gnome or xfc using wayland or x11 with systemd or launchd or ... Any AI. they all have libraries worth of troubleshooting sessions and successful linux troubleshooting workflows and documentation and so on in the training data. Agentic training and operator training flows often include Linux environments, specifically. Any IT person worth half a damn is going to be using AI and will be more than capable of resolving anything it is possible to resolve. Support your local independent IT businesses, too. But again, get the Linux PC working and I'd bet a good donut that it takes less work to maintain and is easier to use - even for our moms.

Jblx2 7mo ago

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=47448328 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=47448328

LambdaComplex 7mo ago

Enterprises love Windows for the ability to centrally manage an entire fleet's configuration using Active Directory. Is there anything for Linux that comes close to that?

kuerbel 7mo ago
Univention Corporate Server.
esseph 7mo ago
Ansible is what gets used for large Linux fleets for config management. It's not a 1:1 analog.

malfist 7mo ago

If my middle monitor didn't require a screen resolution change and revert to not be black after every boot or wake I'd use Linux all the time, but right now I can't make it work without a big hassle and believe me, I tried

dddddaviddddd 7mo ago
When I had a similar issue on FreeBSD, I wrote some automatic pre- and post-suspend scripts (audio interface could cause full system crash going into suspend unless correctly managed beforehand). I’m sure you could do something similar on Linux.

fsloth 7mo ago

Ok. Look. I guess we all care about software business here. And computer? It’s what consumers buy from store. Preferably in cybermonday or similar sale. To run the software they ran on their previous computer. They hope slightly faster. But honestly? They couldnt tell. Anyway the new computer is shinier. OS? What’s that? (They honestly could not care less) They dont buy apple for the os. They buy it for the brand.

inferniac 7mo ago

"it's fundamentally inferior to Linux" I installed linux mint on a new drive in January Firefox was tearing awfully on just scrolling Surely I just need to install Nvidia drivers Install drivers, but they dont work due to some secure boot interaction with driver signing, that made me jump through quite a few hoops (thx to AI for walking me through it fairly well) I'm sorry but an average person is not ready for this level of bs in their daily life

coreyburnsdev 7mo ago
Linux mint is not a good distro
- Arainach 7mo ago
  Having to figure out which distros are "good" or not, with the internet full of people arguing about those points, is another entry on the "why Linux isn't a good choice for most people" list.
thomond 7mo ago
Part of the problem is the unpredictability. I have Nvidia too and I never had these problems.
subscribed 7mo ago
Well, on windows you just need to install Nvidia drivers so it stops crashing. Mint might be the wrong choice. AFAIR on both Fedora and Ubuntu you can just add "nonfree" repositories (one checkmark) and you'll have proprietary, closed source binaries installed. At least this is how it worked kn my Linux laptops. I've never had to specifically install NVIDIA drivers and conversely, firmware upgrade was comes from the repository as well, so the installation is one commandline command and reboot, no obscure websites and weird firmware installers.

hatthew 7mo ago

I am a very technical person, living on a computer for the majority of my life by this point, and I've spent at least 3000 hours on each of the big 3 OSes. I like windows, because 95% of things just work. I love the philosophy of linux, I love its technical specificity, I love that with enough effort it's possible to do almost anything on it. But at the end of the day the computer is a means to an end, and windows is the sweet spot between customizability and fiddliness that lets me focus on the end rather than the means.

e-dant 7mo ago

Linux does not have a marketing team. Microsoft, Apple, Google do. The market is not efficient, it is gullible.

Arainach 7mo ago
Linux is a lot like Rick and Morty: I don't mind it, but I never want to be publicly associated with any of it's biggest fans.

santoshalper 7mo ago

The ecosystem is the operating sytem.

chrysoprace 7mo ago

You've gotta understand that most people outside of IT have very little to no computer literacy. They want something that just works, and Linux doesn't do that. I've completely replaced Windows with Bazzite since November and it's been great for me, but it's not been without issues. Those issues are doable for me, but if I put Bazzite, Fedora, Linux Mint or any of the other beginner friendly distros on anybody else's PC they'll encounter a roadblock that they won't know how to resolve and that'll taint their Linux experience. Not to mention spotty hardware drivers (I've had several wifi drivers just stop working with an update, which is infuriating if you don't have a reliable wired connection), volunteer software for many configurations (OpenRGB doesn't support my motherboard), nVidia drivers and finding alternatives to software people know and use like Office and Photoshop. These might not seem like a big deal, but they're dealbreakers for many and they'd rather put up with some dodgy window resize behaviour or their OS spying on them.

paxys 7mo ago

Windows is superior to Linux because people can actually use it. Everything else is secondary.

esseph 7mo ago
Largely because that's all they've experienced since it was probably the first computer OS they used throughout their entire life.
- M95D 7mo ago
  Lots of people used MS-DOS before they had Windows, and still didn't prefer Linux.

aduwah 7mo ago

I had a chat with a Linux fan the other day. They said Linux is better because you can replace kernels easily to get driver support for something that wasn't working. The problem is that I do not want to mess around to make things work. This is the power of Windows. Everything is built around it and it does not need or want you to keep hacking it. Don't get me wrong I am working on Mac and my personal dev laptop is a Linux Mint, but sometimes it physically hurt to find something that sends me down a rabbit hole yet again on Linux. I just think the whole "you have to hack it because you can and otherwise you don't really own it" thing is a big hurdle on Linux that keeps mainstream peeps to stay away Not sure if I made sense, but yeah basically in order to challenge Windows Linux would need to "just work" which is not the case right now (or ever was)

Waterluvian 7mo ago

It’s absolutely wild to me just how unaware tech people can be to how far from normal their experience is. Like this is just not even close to understanding what the game even is. We’d all be better off if we could somehow impart a lot more empathy for everyone to be even just aware of other life contexts.

esseph 7mo ago
> just how unaware tech people can be to how far from normal their experience is This is the same with expertise in any field that requires decades of education.
- Waterluvian 7mo ago
  That’s probably generally true. But I suspect any field that requires interacting closely with non-peers suffers less from this. I bet tech people who do user-oriented stuff like interviews, UX, etc. suffer less from it.

adamddev1 7mo ago

Drivers for laptops. Do all the sound cards work flawlessly? Is the power usage/battery life similar? Sadly this is a big part of what holds it back.

pdonis 7mo ago

> I'm somewhat surprised that Windows is still most of personal computers. The reason is simple: Microsoft has a lock on PCs used by corporate and government employees, so the vast majority of people who use computers at work use Windows computers. And so they naturally buy the same kind of computer for home that they're used to using at work. People like me, who run Linux at home even though I'm forced to use Windows at work, are outliers. And probably always will be. So the only way for the Linux desktop to really take off would be for large corporate customers and governments to switch from Windows to Linux. I would love it if that happened, but I'm not holding my breath.

natas 7mo ago

In business, the “best” solution doesn’t win—the one that aligns with incentives does. You can argue Linux is technically better than Windows, but Windows wins in many orgs because of familiarity, vendor support, existing tooling, and lower perceived risk. Adoption beats superiority.

bombcar 7mo ago
That's just a way of saying that "best" is a wider net than the "fans" want it to be.

IAmGraydon 7mo ago

While Linux may seem like a better experience to the technically inclined, it is an utter mess to the average computer user. Linux is like a Lotus Elise: fast, bare bones, responsive, and a pure sports car for racecar drivers. They don't care that it has no air conditioning, no power windows, no power locks, no remote start, no padding on the seats. Put an average driver in it and they hate it. Then there's Windows, which is kind of like a Mercedes - a technical wonder, but over the years they've tacked so many things on it that now we have a cooled cup holder, 4D surround sound, and a god damn glowing logo on the front. But the core has been forgotten for all of the creature comforts. Put a racecar driver in this and they hate it. Put your average driver in it and they think it's the bees knees. You, I, and everyone on HN are all racecar drivers. Our view of Windows is heavily skewed by our technical knowledge, but it is exactly what it's supposed to be - the operating system of the masses. The masses will never love Linux...it's very philosophy is antithetical to what makes a good operating system for the average user. The idea that Linux could ever take serious ground from Windows is never going to happen. It is purely wishful thinking, but it will always have its place in infrastructure and for geeks like you and I. All of that said, for daily driving, I'll take the Mercedes.

tw061023 7mo ago

Linux the kernel is fundamentally inferior to NT from 30 years ago, Linux the userspace is barely tolerable, Linux as an ecosystem is an amateur clownshow barely held together by corporate donations of drivers and absolute dedication of a handful of volunteers of wildly differing skill. If your biggest innovation of a decade is a carbon copy of a feature introduced in NT 3.5 in 1994 AND THEN it turns out most serious people disable it because you cannot even copy a feature without introducing new vulnerabilities - that's a sign of quality.

dmos62 7mo ago
I've only heard once or twice people talking highly of NT. Care to go into more depth?
- bombcar 7mo ago
  NT was originally designed along the lines of a microkernel though in NT 4 they violated the rules and put the graphics driver in ring 0 (iirc) and didn't undo that until around Vista, I believe. Technology-wise, Windows NT and it's APIs is well developed and designed.

5555624 7mo ago

>I'm somewhat surprised that Windows is still most of personal computers. It's the easiest route. On non-Apple computers, Windows is already installed. (It takes a bit of effort to buy a computer without an OS.) Microsoft makes it easy for a user to get Microsoft 365. With that, users have the computer they have at the office and are familiar with. Most are just surfing the web and writing an occasional letter, anyway. That doesn't include people who are perfectly fine with a Chromebook or just their phone. Finding a Linux distribution, downloading it, putting it on a USB stick (or burning a disc), then installing it is not simple for most people. (Don't even ask them to verify the checksum.)

pacifika 7mo ago

People just have disliked computing in general as a result of their Windows experience. I’m not seeing any brick and mortar stores selling Linux laptops or any mindshare for any Linux brand. Maybe if Ubuntu started selling hardware in supermarkets Linux would have a chance of capturing people’s consciousness outside of the power user / professional circles. But they’re years too late now.

WillAdams 7mo ago

It comes preinstalled on new hardware, and has drivers. For folks who use odd-ball hardware, e.g., the new generation Wacom EMR stylus equipped Samsung Galaxy Book 3 Pro 360 I'm writing this out on (really, using a stylus to write this out) it's pretty much the only option, which I wish was not the case. That said, I bought a pair of Raspberry Pi 5s a while back, and am hopeful that the Soulscircuit Pilet I backed on Kickstarter will work well w/ a Wacom One, and if it does so, I'll upgrade to a Movink 13 or something similar.

mvkel 7mo ago

> ecosystem To call an ecosystem superficial evidence is puzzling to me. The ecosystem is -everything- for an operating system. Developers, apps, distribution, users; all of it is ecosystem.

beloch 7mo ago

1. It's not "fundamentally inferior". It's just, historically, focused on a different type of user. Linux is for people who want a lot of control and power but don't mind learning how to use a command line or config file. Windows is more focused on typical users who just want things to work with GUI config tools and still be somewhat flexible. You also need to keep in mind that many new users have grown up on iOS and it doesn't even occur to them that things can be customized in more than superficial ways. 2. Linux has, historically, been fundamentally inferior for some purposes. Lots of (sometimes very expensive) equipment has proprietary drivers that only run on windows. You'll find old versions of windows running hardware in labs all over the world. This is minor though, compared to the mainstream office and home user, as well as gamers. If a typical joe uses windows and MS office at work, its only natural to do the same thing at home. Why learn a new OS for your home computer if you're only using it a few hours a week? Gamers, of course, are still locked into Windows for some titles despite Steam's best efforts. Some gaming hardware still doesn't support Linux properly (I'm looking at you, Razer). Linux is getting really close to Windows for gaming though. 3. Windows was actually a pretty nice OS for a while, until the recent slide into Microslop silliness. ----------- "Integrating AI where it’s most meaningful, with craft and focus: You will see us be more intentional about how and where Copilot integrates across Windows, focusing on experiences that are genuinely useful and well‑crafted. As part of this, we are reducing unnecessary Copilot entry points, starting with apps like Snipping Tool, Photos, Widgets and Notepad." While mealy-mouthed at best, I take this as indicating MS has finally started paying attention to the growing backlash and is going to back off on trying to AI ALL THE THINGS. A lot of users simply don't need or want Copilot everywhere. Many users also now have a compelling alternative in Linux. Inertia keeps them with Windows, but a significant irritant could make them switch. If MS wants to keep those users, they need to stop pushing AI so hard and focus on keeping the rest of Windows in good shape.

UqWBcuFx6NV4r 7mo ago

I’d suggest you get out of your echo chamber. If you can’t see why Linux doesn’t make mainstream appeal. For civilians, computers are hard enough to use without them being desktop Linux.

autoexec 7mo ago

> I'm forced to confront the fact that either I'm wrong about its fundamentals, or the market is able to be irrational for longer than I find reasonable. Either way, Windows in my mind, represents a world I'd like to leave behind. Apple too, btw. I think that the market (though it is certainly irrational) is moving away from windows. It's very likely the reason why this post was written and they're now (4+ years after the release windows 11) addressing even the most basic complaints (like the taskbar). I have zero faith that the attitudes driving the fundamental problems that brought us to the point where MS has to be genuinely worried about the future of Window's market share have changed. Microsoft still sees your computer as belonging to them. They still feel entitled to all of your data and the contents of your hard drive. They still want to use their OS as an ad platform. They're still deeply envious of Apple and want an app store with similar control over what you can and can't install on your computer. Like you, they've lost me. The moment any meaningful amount of gaming was viable on linux they lost the only thing that could have kept me using Windows in any capacity (and even then my gaming PC would have been treated like a console. Almost zero personal info and mostly offline). They fucked up badly and promises like "you can move your taskbar" or "we'll be less obnoxious with updates" is not going to being me back.

roarcher 7mo ago
> They fucked up badly and promises like "you can move your taskbar" or "we'll be less obnoxious with updates" is not going to being me back. Especially considering you could move the taskbar until Windows 11 when they inexplicably killed it. It only took them 5 goddamn years to put it back. To be fair, this does indeed demonstrate their "commitment to quality", just as they intended.

gonzalohm 7mo ago

It's like iOS. It's a closed ecosystem much like windows so to me android seems like the obvious choice. But that doesn't seem to be the case in the US. This is changing though, android is becoming very much like android

munificent 7mo ago

You are underestimating the real fundamental value of "I can call my friend/family member and ask tech support questions and get help".

suhputt 7mo ago

[dead]

phendrenad2 7mo ago

If you're having trouble confronting the facts, it might help to search up some of the criticisms people have of Linux, and - critically - ignore the replies to it. There's a psychological effect where if you don't understand where someone is coming from, if someone says "that's stupid" then it gives your mind license to conclude that the person you don't understand is just crazy. Staring into the abyss of the Linux criticisms long enough, and you'll start to see it from their perspective.

ubermonkey 7mo ago

It's nice to think about a FOSS-first world, but what people want is turnkey computing. That's why Apple does well -- the happy path on the Mac, or in iOS, is very very smooth for both technical people and octogenarians. The fun thing about the Mac is that technical people can do more or less whatever they want, while the out of the box experience is still super simple and easy for people who do not have a comfortable relationship with computing. This is a good thing. Consider the easy integration you get with Apple headphones and Apple devices. Regular Bluetooth pairing is far more fiddly and annoying. Consider how you'd set up easy use of a password manager across devices. This is "it just works" territory with the Apple ecosystem. It's awkward and weird on Windows. It's a giant DIY project on Linux. This is why Apple succeeds. They think about end user experience far more than Microsoft does. Linux, as a non-product (this is not a ding), doesn't "think" about this at all, for the most part. I DO think it's pretty obvious that desktop Linux would be much farther along had Apple not pivoted to a FreeBSD based OS a quarter century ago. That brought a lot of very technical people onto the platfor that would've otherwise gone to Linux. There was a time when any given tech conf was a sea of illuminated Apples on the backs of laptop screens, because getting your average LAMP stack running was trivial on a Mac and painful on Windows. It was an opportunity for Microsoft, but Ballmer couldn't see it, and so here we are.

cryptoegorophy 7mo ago

Why Apple?

dmos62 7mo ago
Walled garden, closed-source, user-hostility. That's my main gripe with Windows too. It's a bit lazy to lump them together, because when you get into the weeds they act differently, but both fall way below my standards of what I want my tools to be like. With Apple, the anti-ownership, anti-repair lobbying stands out to me as especially bad. Apple's walled garden is especially strong, and the hardware exclusivity is 1950s in the worst way. It's like hardware standartization never happened. Hate to think if every PC vendor was like this.

kenjackson 7mo ago

I’ve read your posts for the past 25 years - originally on slashdot (not literally you). As you proposed, I think you’re fundamentally wrong. I got my MIL a Chromebook and it was probably the single worst technical support decision I ever made. For some, it will always be the year of Linux on the desktop. But rather the reality is the desktop will run its course before Linux has a foothold there.

wraptile 7mo ago

Microsoft hasn't been able to get marketplace in any other consumer product line. This seems pretty clear that Windows team is mostly just coasting on the fact that Windows is being forced upon people and frankly most people don't even understand what's an operating system so this strategy has been and will continue working well.

ekianjo 7mo ago

You have a market that's locked by Microsoft working with OEMs and Microsoft spraying money around to ensure that nobody ever seriously consider switching. Add to that that Windows is used as a surveillance tool by the three letter agencies and you have the perfect storm for things not to change.

eviks 7mo ago

> superficial superiority only comes from the ecosystem, not some inherent trait But since real users live at the level of the ecosystem, what's hard about understanding that they can't replace a lacking ecosystem with "inherent traits"?

csomar 7mo ago

Many people have processes on these machines that would be too costly, disruptive and with questionable ROI to migrate. They'll stay there until it's no longer an option.

thunfischtoast 7mo ago

I use both, Windows 11 and Pop! OS (which is Ubuntu, with Cosmic). Pop! OS is definitely not ready for the average user in my opinion. Some common work-related apps I need like Citrix Workspace straight up don't work. Audio + Camera randomly give out in the middle of video conferences, only fixable by a complete reboot. Some things are only fixable in the terminal. I use it as much as I can, but there is still work to be done. I agree that Windows is on the wrong path.

Tomis02 7mo ago

> fundamentally inferior to Linux The UX/UI of Windows 98 is far, far ahead of whatever Linux DWM we have today. It's nowhere near close. My KDE is usable but everything feels off, from icon shapes and sizes to mouse cursor icons, mouse cursor speed, the way settings are organised, almost everything. And it's not a matter of habit, as I've been on KDE for years, and I kept trying to make it work. Windows just clicks out of the box, it's more comfortable. Microsoft, once upon a time, put an enormous amount of money into creating a user experience that makes sense for a maximum amount of people. Even though this experience suffered enormously over the last decade, it's still better than everything else, including OSX. And I'm not praising Microsoft, everyone else (including Canonical) is just that bad.