13 ms·

Tesla kills Autopilot, locks lane-keeping behind $99/month fee

345 points by CharlesW 9mo ago

physhster 9mo ago
Is this an ad for comma.ai? Because it sure reads like one...
jackmarshl0w 9mo ago
[dead]
7e 9mo ago
[flagged]
- ben_w 9mo ago
  "Who is more foolish? The fool or the fool who follows him?" - Obi Wan Kenobi - George Lucas
  - kccoder 9mo ago
    I'm going to go with the fool being followed. At least the following fool realizes that they need guidance, but just chose the wrong leader.
- scottyah 9mo ago
  This sounds like almost every other product I buy, except it's designed to eventually save a lot of lives? Imagine being mad that a kitchen knife has no liability for what you do with it, or a motorcycle.
  - FireBeyond 9mo ago
    Imagine if professional medical equipment designed to save lives had no liability clauses? Except they do. Which is why there's FDA certification and regulation and the Lifepak 15s I used as a paramedic cost around $40,000. Mercedes was also willing to put their money where their mouth was and accept liability for vehicle software issues. (Cue here the Tesla stans talking about "how limited" that was. Almost perhaps as if it was for a good reason and not "if it compiles, ship it").
    - ericd 9mo ago
      It sounds like the point you're making is that manufacturers taking liability will make all of this unaffordable for normal people, similar to how medicine has become unaffordable? I don't think that's actually your point, but it sort of sounds like it.
      - FireBeyond 9mo ago
        There are probably elements of that but my read of the post I replied to was "why on earth would you expect manufacturers of equipment to accept liability for misuse?" (I actually agree about misuse, but malfunction is not the same.) And "in the context of something that is designed to save lives"... well, absolutely, many manufacturers do and will and even "have to".
  - 7e 9mo ago
    Currently it's more dangerous to use FSD than to not use FSD. They can charge me when it's not a danger to society; I will gladly pay. Most likely I will be paying Waymo.
    - scottyah 9mo ago
      It's not though? The data shows less fatal accidents and less accidents overall. Waymo is definitely doing better so far, they have Level 4 autonomy already while Tesla is still on Level 2. https://www.tesla.com/fsd/safety https://www.tesla.com/fsd/safety
dmitrygr 9mo ago
This is similar to GM‘s Super Cruise, which is similar in functionality and also a monthly subscription.
- deleted 9mo ago
  [deleted]
- rootusrootus 9mo ago
  GM Super Cruise (and Ford's Blue Cruise) is hands-free, autosteer is not. Ford has an equivalent of autosteer available without a subscription, I would guess GM does too.
coolspot 9mo ago
$99/mo is for FSD, not just lane keeping. The article doesn’t explain what happens to simple lane leeping. Surely it should be free like in any other car (like my Volvo).
- dawnerd 9mo ago
  Lane keep is autopilot which is going away (for new cars). FSD doesn't have basic lane keep. The real question will be what happens to "legacy" cars with autopilot.
  - rootusrootus 9mo ago
    > The real question will be what happens to "legacy" cars with autopilot. Tesla cannot take anything away that was on the Monroney sticker. This includes AP.
  - loourr 9mo ago
    Lane keeping is a default feature for free on all tesla's and this article doesn't say it's going away.
    - dawnerd 9mo ago
      It’s autopilot and yes on current models. New models will not get it. That’ll be FSD only.
    - giobox 9mo ago
      Its being reported elsewhere that future new teslas will not have basic autopilot (the name Tesla use for the standard lane keep assist they offer) at all, the only way to get any form of lane keep assist will be to subscribe to FSD. The wording in the ars article linked here does a terrible job of explaining the change. Existing Teslas which already have basic Autopilot will still continue to have the feature. New Teslas will now only have "Traffic Aware Cruise Control" as standard without lane assist, i.e. keeps pace with traffic and can stop/start, but user still has to provide steering input.
dawnerd 9mo ago
He said the price will increase as it gets more capable. Funny though, they've lowered the price of FSD over the years...
- rootusrootus 9mo ago
  He lies so consistently, it continues to impress me how effectively he controls TSLA investors.
  - deleted 9mo ago
    [deleted]
  - LunaSea 9mo ago
    Stockholm syndroom, they are a captive audience, they already bought the stock.
stefan_ 9mo ago
Is the article confused or will there literally be no lane-keeping without the subscription? Because nowadays every car rental place bottom of the barrel Kia has lane-keeping.
- loourr 9mo ago
  it's click-bait, the lane keeping is free and is not going away
  - alistairSH 9mo ago
    Do you have a source for that? I thought all of Tesla's "default" driver assistance was part of Autopilot, which is going away. I haven't seen any mention of decoupling various features from Autopilot (with some remaining free, just without the branding).
    - Sparyjerry 9mo ago
      They just changed the name from autopilot to Traffic-Aware Cruise Control with Autosteer. This is just more anti-Tesla propaganda.
- cbsks 9mo ago
  Tesla’s “autosteer” is significantly more advanced than the “lane keeping” feature I’ve seen in rental cars, or my own 2023 Jeep. My understanding is that autosteer will actively keep the car centered in the middle of the lane, while the “lane keeping” I’ve experienced will only adjust the steering when you approach the lane edge, which pin balls you back and forth like a drunk driver.
  - FireBeyond 9mo ago
    In mid tier and premium tier cars, lane keeping is generally either implicitly or explicitly lane centering. My Navigator calls it lane keeping but it is centering, and my Audi specifically calls out lane centering.
ipv6ipv4 9mo ago
In light of recent trends, Tesla is signaling supreme confidence in its prospects by already pursuing enshittification.
- adamkittelson 9mo ago
  They’ve been enshittifying for the better part of a decade. The model 3 launching without rain sensors and taking years to get any where near comparable with cameras comes to mind.
  - rootusrootus 9mo ago
    It still is not anywhere close with cameras. My guess is that it will not ever get better than it is today.
siliconc0w 9mo ago
Article is unclear but if this is saying you can't even get basic ADAS w/out $99/mo that is a pretty big deal, especially if it's applied to existing cars. Basic stay-in-line and start/stop following in traffic has become pretty standard for almost a decade at this point and paywalling it now would be outrageous. I have a 2017 car that does this.
- tokyobreakfast 9mo ago
  Basic ADAS is government-mandated. Even shitbox Toyotas with traditional ignition keys have it for free.
  - rootusrootus 9mo ago
    Do you have a source for that? I'm not aware of any regulation requiring ADAS. Even automatic emergency breaking is not yet required for a few more years.
  - hermanzegerman 9mo ago
    Well Teslas now ship without the Lane Keeping. So the Toyota Shitbox has better ADAS (and surely also a better quality)
  - enragedcacti 9mo ago
    It is in the EU but in the US ADAS won't be mandated until 2029. It would tank your IIHS rating though and all major mfgs have met a voluntary pledge to have >95% light duty vehicles ship with autobraking by 2023: https://www.iihs.org/news/detail/automakers-fulfill-autobrake-pledge-for-light-duty-vehicles https://www.iihs.org/news/detail/automakers-fulfill-autobrak...
- tzs 9mo ago
  According to other articles adaptive cruise control (which works down to 0 mph in stop and go traffic) is being kept standard. It is just the rest of Autopilot that is moving to a subscription.
_23sd 9mo ago
They're offering 50% off the subscription to people who used to have Enhanced Autopilot [1]. As I predicted when the CEO's compensation plan had a part tied to FSD subscriptions, they are going to push more people onto it by bundling more features and cutting the price. [1] https://x.com/SawyerMerritt/status/2014751111803032049 https://x.com/SawyerMerritt/status/2014751111803032049
- boringg 9mo ago
  Show me the incentives i'll show you the outcomes.
- fc417fc802 9mo ago
  Reminds me of when an ISP offered me a discount if I would agree to sign up with their partnered TV service. I agreed on the condition that I didn't have to rent a box. But you can't use the service without a box ... ? Who cares, I got a discount.
nxtfari 9mo ago
My guess is Tesla is desperately in need of Q1 revenue and they want people to scarcity buy FSD lifetime @ $8K. Otherwise the strategy doesn’t make any sense. They’re saying FSD and basic Autopilot will go behind subscription and that subscription prices are expected to go up. Basically laying out that they’re planning to lock you into a subscription and then price gouge. It’s so transparent that I think the point isn’t actually the gouge but to make that threat move lifetime FSD sales.
- thefourthchime 9mo ago
  Tesla is going to stop selling FSD outright on Feb 14th. It will be subscription only.
- scottyah 9mo ago
  1. There's a CA lawsuit against the FSD name, Tesla has to fix it by Feb 14th (the last day FSD is being sold). I wonder if it'll just be a rebrand for the new service. https://www.dmv.ca.gov/portal/news-and-media/news-releases/dmv-finds-tesla-violated-california-state-law/ https://www.dmv.ca.gov/portal/news-and-media/news-releases/d... 2. Elon's Trillion Dollar Payout is tied to a certain number of FSD Subscriptions. 3. Some consumers were sold that they would get hardware upgrades for FSD. I'm pretty sure Tesla would like to minimize that, and I expect incentives for those people to purchase new vehicle without FSD. 4. Subscriptions drive our economy, I don't know the details but it seems like every company wants subscriptions over one time purchases. I honestly don't think they want a lot of people with lifetime FSD, it's disappearing without a lot of news.
  - lotsofpulp 9mo ago
    > 4. Subscriptions drive our economy, I don't know the details but it seems like every company wants subscriptions over one time purchases. Every person I know wants a subscription, too. Who wouldn’t want a nest egg throwing off passive income?
    - CuriouslyC 9mo ago
      A lot of entrepreneurs hate the saasification of everything, and don't want to create sub services. They tow the line because investors LOVE subs and will look at you like you're insane if you disagree.
moomoo11 9mo ago
Taycan Turbo GT mogs any Plaid cult member.
wing-_-nuts 9mo ago
These sort of shenanigans for even basic lanekeeping makes a very strong case for more open source solutions like comma
- greenpresident 9mo ago
  Pressing the lane assistant button on a Mercedes steering wheel and getting a “you’ll need to activate your subscription first” message really drove up my blood pressure.
  - hermanzegerman 9mo ago
    You know you can just buy it?
    - greenpresident 9mo ago
      It’s built in. There is a dedicated button for it. Hard to justify imho.
    - b40d-48b2-979e 9mo ago
      They already bought the car.
      - whynotmaybe 9mo ago
        I'm wondering whether it's a generational vision and that the concept of ownership of software with hardware is slowly becoming obsolete. Every young adult I know uses a subscription for everything I used to buy. Even though they own the device on which they consume it. Spotify for cd's, Netflix-Disney-Amazon for vhs and dvd's, Udemy-Masterclass for books.
        tzs 9mo ago
        CDs were around $16 in 2000, which is equivalent to around $30 today, which is around 2.3 times what a Spotify premium subscription costs for one person. Equivalently, a Spotify premium subscription in 2000 would be a little under $7. I guarantee that if you asked young adults in 2000 if they would be interested in a subscription that lets them listen to nearly everything available on CD, at any time, as often as they wished, for $7/month they would have been ecstatic. Same for DVDs, which were typically in the $20-25 range for new releases in 2000. They would not have been quite as happy as they would have been with Spotify because of the way video is split among several streaming services, but it would still be seen as a tremendous improvement.
cruffle_duffle 9mo ago
$99/month plus tax is a pretty fucking steep price for any kind of subscription! Holy cow!
- Analemma_ 9mo ago
  If you have do a lot of driving, $99/mo. seems like a decent price to have the car drive itself, especially if it got to the Waymo point where absolutely no driver attention was needed and you could watch Netflix the whole time. The issue with FSD isn't the price, it's that no matter what Elon and his fanboys say, it doesn't bloody work and Waymo is blowing them out of the water in capability.
  - eldaisfish 9mo ago
    The “if” here is lifting many metric tonnes of assumptions.
- jdsully 9mo ago
  I sign up if I want to do a long road trip and cancel after. Worked great for that.
MarkusWandel 9mo ago
Wait a minute. My recent-ish car has LKAS. It recognizes white lines (or possibly curbs too) and if both boundaries of the lane are recongized, will steer for you - for 10 seconds maybe, before it nags you provide some steering input. But in those 10 seconds it's perfectly capable of smoothly steering around bends in the road on its own. And it is a useful safety feature even if only nudging the steering wheel while you're holding it. So you don't get even that in a Tesla without (now) ponying up $$? Something that's a standard feature in my non cloud connected (or connectable!) "so last century" fossil fuel vehicle?
- kronks 9mo ago
  [dead]
- thewebguyd 9mo ago
  Yeah I don't get Tesla's move here. Lane Keep Assist has been a standard feature in most new cars, EV or not, starting around ~2019ish. IIRC, the EU now has regulations mandating lane keep assist in all new vehicles sold. Heck, a cheap base model Maza 3 I rented had lane keep assist. Tesla only stands to lose by gatekeeping what's now a basic feature behind a paywall.
  - b40d-48b2-979e 9mo ago
    It checks out with all the other awful software changes they're making like whatever "curvature assist" is that randomly brakes where it doesn't need to, or when it gets confused about what road I'm on while on the freeway and suddenly drops my 75mph cruise control to 55mph and slams the brakes. I miss having a dumb cruise control.
  - Sparyjerry 9mo ago
    This article is completely false. What was previously called autopilot is rebraned and still free. FSD is what is 99/month.
- toast0 9mo ago
  Is your car really not connected/connectable? I have a 2014 car that's connectable but no driver assistance; I had a 2017 (delivered mid 2016) with lane keeping and emergency braking which seemed pretty new and exciting, and it's connectable, all I would need to do is pay a big annual fee and also setup a 3g CDMA network. Couldn't do much with either if it's connected; I pulled the 3g modem from the 2014 when it was convenient cause I was worried it was using power while off. Not that lane keeping needs a connection, just that I'm surprised they put it on a car without a modem.
throwawa14223 9mo ago
Just like all subscriptions this kills my interest in it. Tech is only interesting if it isn’t locked in a corporate data center.
- dylan604 9mo ago
  you must be really bored with pretty much all the popular tech today then
  - jjulius 9mo ago
    ... and? Nothing wrong with not buying into what's popular.
    - dylan604 9mo ago
      and nothing. it's a comment on how everything is closed tech by the platforms, not a knock on being bored with that fact. i fully agree and do not participate on those platforms.
  - wrxd 9mo ago
    Not the person you’re responding to but yes, pretty much all of modern tech is awful. The specs are pretty good but then you don’t really own it, you get limitations on what you can use it for, you get rent seeking and walled gardens everywhere. Even if you’re paying you get ads and get tracked. Updates make products worse more often than not. What are you excited about? AI slop?
    - dylan604 9mo ago
      > What are you excited about? AI slop? A little credit please?! I don't use AI anything. I code my stuff the old fashioned way with nested if/else statements that make you cry trying to follow along. And damn the coworker that interrupts your debugging asking if you got their email or not. https://img.devrant.com/devrant/rant/r_55338_NBSDq.jpg https://img.devrant.com/devrant/rant/r_55338_NBSDq.jpg
  - 9mo ago
deleted 9mo ago
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YY59487598347 9mo ago
Do BYD and other Chinese EVs have this insane subscription scheme for basic features on their cars, or is that only a feature of North American/European manufacturers?
- TacoCommander 9mo ago
  I am also curious about this, how does the average person in China feel about subscriptions?
  - loloquwowndueo 9mo ago
    BYD is available in a lot of countries outside China.
- SilverElfin 9mo ago
  It looks to be completely free on most BYD models - as in no one time fee or subscription fee, but just part of the car: https://insideevs.com/news/750244/byd-smart-driving-cheap/ https://insideevs.com/news/750244/byd-smart-driving-cheap/
  - apublicfrog 9mo ago
    Wow, I've never seen an article that misleading from the first line! > "Full Self-Driving" costs $8,000. BYD includes its version for free on a $9,300 car. These are unrelated things. Tesla's comparative offering (at the time this article was written) was also included for free.
    - roryirvine 9mo ago
      So, what you're saying is that Tesla used to be as good as a $9,300 BYD but is now going to be worse? No wonder they need to hide behind a tariff wall.
      - apublicfrog 9mo ago
deleted 9mo ago
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ModernMech 9mo ago
This is part of the long con. They promised FSD almost a decade ago and as their competitors eclipse them, it's clear Tesla is a) behind and b) will never catch up. So instead of admitting they were wrong all along and doing what's necessary to catch up (add LiDAR to their sensor stack), they are going to quietly "pivot" Tesla to a "ai and robotics" company, with the monthly fee they'll continue to bilk anyone who is still enthralled enough to believe them on their FSD grift, but they will run the same scam as they did with FSD (Musk will say "humanoid robots for the home in in 3 years", yet we will still be waiting for them to be useful in the year 2035)
- rootusrootus 9mo ago
  I'm not any kind of Elon fan, but I think it is a little more nuanced than that. FSD is definitely more advanced than any regular competition. It is not as capable as Waymo, that is for sure, but that is not a car you can own.
  - ModernMech 9mo ago
    Their vision-only system will never live up to promises without inventing an AGI-level inference engine. Maintaining an aura that they are capable of doing this is part of the con. A kind of, shangri-la promise of harmonious one-true vision system that to date has not come true despite promises of its impending coming.
  - Zigurd 9mo ago
    Apart from the technical limitations of FSD, Elon hasn't thought through the business model. Claiming that Tesla cars will be capable of turning into robotaxis seemed plausible a decade ago before all the negative externalities of Airbnb became widely known. Waymo isn't just the Waymo Driver technology and sensor suite. It's charging and cleaning depots. It's product support both for the customer and the vehicle that scales. It's an insane amount of LiDAR acquired 3-D mapping data, plus real time data from Google maps and navigation. Meanwhile Tesla has replaced some of the drivers sitting in the front seat with chase cars. Just to make the technically correct claim that the cars are no longer supervised by someone in the car.
linuxftw 9mo ago
I don't see what the issue is. No one is forced to buy a tesla, no pay for the subscription. It seems likely that self-driving features will require ongoing maintenance and updates for the next several years, it's not like it's 0 cost to them to develop and distribute the software. I'm not a Tesla fan, I will never own a fully self driving car, but I don't have a problem with a company charging money for features that consumers want. There are about a dozen other car manufacturers in the US alone that can sell self driving cars without a subscription if they want to.
- rootusrootus 9mo ago
  > self-driving features will require ongoing maintenance and updates for the next several years Autopilot is not self-driving, it is lane-centering with traffic aware cruise control. It has not gotten any maintenance or updates in years, as far as we can tell. Identical functionality is available from many competitors with no subscription. This is a noteworthy decision for Tesla because AP has long been one of their defining features, dropping it is a big step backward just as the market caught up.
  - linuxftw 9mo ago
    Well, the market will decide if dropping it in favor of a subscription-based upgrade is worth it or not. Not sure why anyone would be upset, this all seems perfectly reasonable.
- cosmicgadget 9mo ago
  They are taking away a standard feature for most modern cars as a sad way to push more people into their shitty CaaS model. Nobody is forced to buy a Tesla, correct, but that isn't a requirement for newsworthiness.
tra3 9mo ago
I would gladly pay $99/month if this was honest FSD. I started tracking my time consistently since end of December and in the past 2 weeks I spend 23 hours driving. That's already only $4/hour. I haven't been keeping up with the progress in this space. Last I heard, Benz introduced some sort of self driving feature AND accepted full liability for it (whereas Tesla does not). How does Benz's self driving compare to Teslas?
- starik36 9mo ago
  We've had FSD trial for 4 months in the middle of last year. I work from home so I can't really justify $100 a month. However, we did take a few trips (about 60 miles in each direction) to see family through downtown LA. I was honestly stunned by how far the tech has come. It basically drove us door to door without a single intervention.
  - tra3 9mo ago
    I talked to about 3 people about this that have personal experience with Tesla autopilot and that's been the feedback. So where's the gap? What's the problem?
    - starik36 9mo ago
      I don't think there is a problem per se. There are probably still edge cases out there that I didn't experience. But overall, I think the tech is ready to roll.
- Auracle 9mo ago
  Benz's full self driving is only up to 40mph and only when it has a car to follow in front of you.
  - Nemi 9mo ago
    When you said this, lemming's all jumping off a cliff came to mind...
  - 9mo ago
ChrisArchitect 9mo ago
Previously: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=46618435 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=46618435
seshagiric 9mo ago
It's a tradeoff, too early to say if it's a dumb move. Side A: Tesla can grow FSD subscription revenue by making FSD + Autopilot completely based on subscription. Lot more people use Autopilot than FSD. In the happy path such users will pay the subscription and that revenue will increase. Side B: Autopilot (aka lane keeping) is fast becoming default option across manufacturers. Tesla will take a dip in sales if such 'basic' option is no longer available. Whether side A > side B is to be seen.
- cosmicgadget 9mo ago
  I'd prefer to evaluate it from the viewpoint of someone outside the Tesla c-suite.
- lowbloodsugar 9mo ago
  $22k Corolla has it. Not paying $99/mo for it. The issue is not that “FSD” is $99/mo. The issue is that a feature of $22k cars (lane keeping) is behind the $99/mo paywall. Basically not enough people were buying the subscription for Elon to get his payout. But someone who just wants auto steering isn’t going to decide they’ll pay $99/mo for that. So this is just going to make people who like that feature not buy a new Tesla when the time comes.
dwa3592 9mo ago
Time for comma to shine? https://comma.ai/ https://comma.ai/
deleted 9mo ago
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waffletower 9mo ago
Tesla's autopilot was so clumsy that I stopped using it and forgot about it years ago. I like the adaptive cruise control though, it is more transparent and decidedly more of a benefit, except for its phantom braking moments. Autopilot's requirement that your hands be on the wheel (and do nothing) is a strain over time, definitely boring, and a terrible interface. I don't understand why people would pay for such an awkward feature. The monthlong demos of Full Self Driving I tried were even more awkward. The need to keep your hands on the wheel required a different but nearly equivalent cognitive load to actual steering, when using it in residential and city traffic. The crucial difference is that "the car was driving me" rather than "I was driving the car". Tesla can't convince everyone that their driver assist technology warrants product status; take away driver autonomy and make them pay for it seems like a failure to me. It won't be a product until you can sit in the back, close your eyes and safely arrive at your destination. Good luck getting to that level of quality with this business model. Tesla should be giving the tech away to its car owners and collecting as much data as they can, right? I have points to spare for the astroturf Muskovites to downvote my honest (but embarrassed) customer perspective.
- nehal3m 9mo ago
  I drive one on Dutch roads, and a lot of the back roads (60km/h) are one lane with dotted lines on the side like here: [1] If you turn on TACC, it will constantly whine that you're hugging the side of 'your lane'. But it's one lane for both directions, you're supposed to hug your side! In my SAAB I used cruise control anywhere I expected to maintain speed for any amount of time. In the Y I don't bother on this type of road because it bitches at me constantly and sometimes even jerks me to the middle of the lane. That's never happened with oncoming traffic but I'm not risking it. [1]https://shorturl.at/jSQhP https://shorturl.at/jSQhP (shortened, Maps links are huge)
- vlovich123 9mo ago
  I would recommend testing out the latest FSD. It’s made huge forward steps vs what was there before.
  - deleted 9mo ago
dotcoma 9mo ago
How much does braking cost ?
- ModernMech 9mo ago
  Depends on your social credit score.
  - direwolf20 9mo ago
    The American social credit score is just called credit score.
- perfmode 9mo ago
  $0.00000008 per Newton of deceleration force applied to the vehicle. Pressing the brake pedal and maintaining a stationary position is billed at a rate of $0.003 per second of immobility. Energy dissipation during the braking event costs an additional $0.00001 per Joule of heat generated.
dsr_ 9mo ago
Time to update https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_predictions_for_autonomous_Tesla_vehicles_by_Elon_Musk https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_predictions_for_autono...
- enopod_ 9mo ago
  this is hilarious :)
TacoCommander 9mo ago
Our 2020 Model S came with Autopilot. It was part of the purchase price. We don't use FSD, we don't use Autopilot either. But I'll be goddamed if he tries to take away something I paid for.
- square_usual 9mo ago
  This is only for new cars sold, as they can't take away features that were included in the advertised price for a car when it was sold.
  - MBCook 9mo ago
    Haven’t they done that before?
  - BigTTYGothGF 9mo ago
    They can't yet.
  - tencentshill 9mo ago
    That's true as long a the law is enforced. Which regulator is going to stop them?
    - square_usual 9mo ago
      In this case, customers can sue them.
    - hobofan 9mo ago
      Canadian ones?
testing22321 9mo ago
Somewhat related, there are now robotaxis giving rides to customers in Austin with no driver, and no safety monitor inside at all. Progress, for sure.
- thechao 9mo ago
  Waymo's been in Austin for a while! Seeing them on MOPAC, when I don't think they're supposed to be on the highway, is always charming.
  - verdverm 9mo ago
    a while for sure, Waymo had cars all over last time I was there ~5 years ago Waymo expanded highway operations at the end of last year https://apnews.com/article/waymo-autonomous-driverless-cars-california-freeways-00c52a015f370ff76355716e70e99cb9 https://apnews.com/article/waymo-autonomous-driverless-cars-...
- Zigurd 9mo ago
  There's no monitor in the car. But there is a chase car with a monitor in it. Technically correct is the best kind isn't it?
  - testing22321 9mo ago
    Yes, correct. The next step will be remote monitors with the ability to drive if needed. That will be identical to Waymo I now. Then the next step is nobody watching. Progress is fantastic, it means more choices for consumers, lower prices, better tech.
    - Zigurd 9mo ago
      No, actually, nobody remote drives a Waymo. If you don't know how Waymo works, you also don't know how far behind is Tesla. There are fundamental obstacles to Tesla ever being a viable robotaxi.
SilverElfin 9mo ago
[flagged]
- qwerpy 9mo ago
  Politics aside, FSD is quite awesome these days. It’s pretty much at “press a button and enjoy the ride” capability, although you do have to make a show of paying attention to the road. My truck came with lifetime FSD which I’m happy with, and two family members pay for the monthly subscription because of the quality of life improvement.
  - Zigurd 9mo ago
    Would you take a nap in the backseat while you ride? How much more improvement do you think it would need before you'd be willing to do that?
    - ronnier 9mo ago
      Safety wise, yes. But sometimes the routing is weird and I want to override that
    - Marsymars 9mo ago
      This is basically impossible to determine based on how safe the car "feels". e.g. if it has a 99.9% chance of doing your daily commute without crashing and without you intervening, you can monitor it closely from the driver's seat for 6 months and there'll be ~90% chance that everything looks fine and you never need to intervene. But then if you start napping in the backseat on your commute, there's a 70% chance you'll crash within 5 years.
      - Zigurd 9mo ago
        There are enough people who FA'ed and FO'ed in the form of ending up dead, or killing others, that we're not stuck in abstract calculations or speculation.
- ericmay 9mo ago
Someone1234 9mo ago
A new Tesla, without subscription, now has worse Steering Assist than a $22K Toyota Corolla. Back when Autopilot launched, in consumer cars, it was pretty unique. But the market has moved on significantly, and basic Steering Assist/Full-Speed-Range Automatic Cruise Control, are pretty universal features today.
- buggy6257 9mo ago
  My 5 year old Subaru has been able to lane keep and auto follow to the point that a 2h drive on the freeway is me tapping the wheel every ten seconds to keep it enabled while I watch for idiots. It has been able to do this since I bought it, and I haven’t paid a dime extra. Car cost 30k.
  - drcongo 9mo ago
    My 18 year old Toyota Vellfire does the same.
  - Waterluvian 9mo ago
    I have a 2020 Forester and I've come to describing it as "I no-longer drive on the highway, I manage the car." Sometimes I'll get nervous and take over. But even in stop-and-go traffic, it has behaved perfectly. My only complaint is that there's an over-eager PID loop with lane keeping. If I want to pass a transport truck and want to kind of edge to the left of my lane when doing so, it will keep trying to compensate, which I can feel in the wheel, so I compensate for as well. And if I let go of the wheel and let it win, it suddenly flings me towards the right side of the lane. I suspect this is because it isn't programmed to think that I'm making adjustments, it probably just thinks there's some weirdness in the vehicle dynamics/road characteristics that requires extra compensation.
    - Chilinot 9mo ago
      My volvo also has a "not perfectly tuned" PID loop. With "autopilot" engaged it keeps weaving constantly left and right inside the lane im in. Have gotten used to keeping a firm-ish pressure on the steering wheel at all times to compensate. But drivers behind me must have thought me drunk before i got the hang of it.
t1234s 9mo ago
The basic autopilot is very useful. It would be nice if they offered it as a one-time fee when ordering your car.
gambiting 9mo ago
The real question is why buys Teslas now, given that their owner is a proven fascist showing nazi salutes on stage. Do you have to say "sieg heil" to start it too?
- weirdmantis69 9mo ago
  good little sheeple.
  - gambiting 9mo ago
    The people who buy teslas without looking at anything about the person who runs the company behind them?
- savagej 9mo ago
  [dead]
baggachipz 9mo ago
I'm glad I got rid of my Teslas, they are always doing their best to make the experience worse. Stage three of enshittification from them. I loved it back when it was stage 1.
- mancerayder 9mo ago
  What did you move to? The speed is what I like, and the simplicity when I bought it. I hate 10,000 trim options with random prices like BMW and having to argue with a sales guy - just gimme the price!
  - baggachipz 9mo ago
    I have a reservation for a Rivian R2. Assuming they can cross the mass-production threshold, it'll be an even better Tesla than Teslas are. Better fit/finish, also fast, similar cost, no Nazi leader.
t1234s 9mo ago
FSD makes sense as a subscription as it's something that gets updated all of the time. Subscriptions to things built into the car like heated seats seems like a way to scam money out of people.
- Someone1234 9mo ago
  I agree; but Autopilot unlike FSD hasn't been updated in several years. It doesn't contain maps or context of the roads, it is just Auto-Steer + Lane-Change + Full-Range Cruise Control under one brand-umbrella. Mostly useful on the Motorways/Freeways, and commonly found in competitor's vehicles.
  - t1234s 9mo ago
    If you have the basic "Free" Autopilot was it possible to upgrade it in the app to Enhanced Autopilot to get the lane change feature?
    - Someone1234 9mo ago
      It was at some points; I believed it was priced between $2K-4K depending on the point in time and either offered post-purchased or only during ordering, again, depending on which time-period.
- palata 9mo ago
  My Garmin receives updates and I don't have to pay a subscription for that. Hell I don't even need updates if it does what it should. Often the updates are there to fix bugs because the software was sold before being ready.
- nullocator 9mo ago
  Why does FSD need to get updated all the time?
deleted 9mo ago
[deleted]
lisp2240 9mo ago
All Teslas should be banned. This has gone on long enough.
fortran77 9mo ago
The latest version of FSD is amazing. We have it on our Plaids (2024 and 2026 models) and I probably only actually "drive" 5% of the time. There's a camera to see if you're paying attention to the road, so no longer any need to keep your hands on the wheel. It'll start from a parking space and go all the way into my house and back into the garage. Of course, I don't trust it as much as I trust Waymo's system, and I'm very careful when using it in rain or fog...
- cosmicgadget 9mo ago
  So you're saying people should just pay for the subscription? Seems like tangential FSD(S)-glazing here.
- eldaisfish 9mo ago
  Cameras wired into an internet connected car is the #1 reason why I will never buy a car like a Tesla. Anecdotes like yours are often from the point of view of someone in California - sunny, clear weather most of the year. In monsoon rain, fog, snow, or unusual markings on the road, all these systems break down.
  - fortran77 9mo ago
    > Cameras wired into an internet connected car is the #1 reason why I will never buy a car like a Tesla. Well then, this isn't the car for you. For many other people the safety features are important. I wouldn't mind if every car had a camera that made sure the driver was paying attention and didn't fall asleep.
    - eldaisfish 9mo ago
      That’s completely valid but the problem for me is the fact that you do not control the internet connection in these cars. A camera does not need an internet connection to monitor the driver.
1970-01-01 9mo ago
$99! Not worth it for anyone doing less than 100 miles/day.
nntwozz 9mo ago
I'm 41 and I've never been comfortable with even cruise control, when I drive I DRIVE. I can't shake the feeling of trusting an already complex machine to yet another layer of complexity through software. --- The more they overthink the plumbing, the easier it is to stop up the drain. — Scotty, Star Trek III: The Search for Spock
- dzhiurgis 9mo ago
  [flagged]
clpm4j 9mo ago
I've tried the various flavors of self-driving in my Tesla over the past several years, and essentially it came down to a three-strikes rule for me - after the third time that car jerkily exited the self-driving mode on it own (the third time being in a slight bend on the highway at night) and spiked my heart rate to must have been an all-time high as I manually corrected in time to avoid disaster.. I said "nope, this is a decent electric car but I'm driving it myself from now on." Waymo on the other hand, I trust it with my life on a weekly basis and have never had cause for concern (fingers crossed I didn't just jinx it).
- ryandrake 9mo ago
  Three strikes is a lot of leniency to give to a machine that is carrying you and loved ones down the road at 70mph. The minute I saw a single instance of unexpected steering, braking, or accelerating behavior out of a car that is not damaged, I'd be returning it under warranty.
ArekDymalski 9mo ago
What will be the next step? ignition? wipers? opening passenger doors? charging for functionality that several manufacturers offer for past several years sounds like desperation to get any revenue.
- palata 9mo ago
  As long as people buy them, they have no reason not to do it. What I can't understand is why people buy those cars in the first place.
jmward01 9mo ago
I work hard to keep subscriptions out of my life. I will do everything in my power to not have a subscription as part of any car I own. The problem is it is likely out of my hands. I have a 21 yo car and a 12 yo car and will eventually have to get something 'modern' (worse) that forces spyware/subscriptions on me just to get from point at to point b. I will have to pay astronomical prices on a worse experience for the privilege of having my data sold and the opportunity to pay them monthly. I want to scream when I see things like this but to who? I wonder how hard it is to electrify a 20yo car....
- jmb99 9mo ago
  > I have a 21 yo car and a 12 yo car and will eventually have to get something 'modern' (worse) that forces spyware/subscriptions on me just to get from point at to point b I daily a 30 year old car. There exists a sweet spot of reliability, safety, and comfort (probably the early-mid 2000s) that in theory, you should never have to buy a vehicle outside of, newer or older. There will always be clean old cars in good shape you can buy, you don't need a new vehicle. Unless you can't buy gasoline anymore. But that's still quite a long ways away imo.
  - jmward01 9mo ago
    luckily I don't drive much. The one car is just falling apart and is ridiculously expensive to maintain (don't buy a used Mercedes, ever). The other is just not fun to be in but at least it gets reasonable gas mileage. I really want an electric vehicle, especially the way things are going right now, but buying anything built in the last 10 years is just depressing at best and electric vehicle life is much lower on average than ICE lifespan due to battery life. Ah well. Maybe this will push me to an electric scooter for all the in-town travel and I will only need a 'real car' once a month or so.
- Marsymars 9mo ago
  There are still current-model cars that are effectively subscription-free and/or where you can pull the fuse for the telematics/connectivity and everything else still functions as expected.
wscott 9mo ago
The funny part is that the Tesla doesn't have a basic dumb cruise control. It only has "traffic-aware" cruise control which uses the cameras and doesn't use the new FSD code so it has lots of glitches and phantom braking and decides for itself what speed to use. My wife just wants to set the speed and have the car go that speed.
- Marsymars 9mo ago
  Do any cars with assisted cruise control have the ability to step down to dumb cruise control? (I know my car doesn't - the lower trims have dumb cruise control, and you lose that in favour of assisted if you bump up to a higher trim.)
tehwebguy 9mo ago
$8,000 / $99 / month is 6 years 8 months. How long do people keep their Tesla normally?
nixass 9mo ago
Why would Tesla lock adaptive cruise control when others have it subscription free?
- Marsymars 9mo ago
  To be fair, you can say that about a lot of features/manufacturers. e.g. Why does Toyota lock remote start via app when others have it subscription free?
trentnix 9mo ago
Is this a precursor to Tesla offering autopilot in vehicles from other manufacturers? Sure, other manufactuers would have to adopt the hardware and integrate with the autopilot interface, but self-driving is inevitable and Tesla autopilot is the best.
ehfeng 9mo ago
I've been using Autopilot for years, but recently subscribed to FSD for a long weekend roadtrip. It changed my mind on the value of FSD. While unfortunate for consumers, it cleans up the offerings. For four years, I didn't buy FSD because Autopilot was good enough to cover highway driving and I couldn't justify $99/month for the "last mile". If you strip out Autopilot and given the latest FSD, I would 100% buy the FSD subscription. Removing the lifetime purchase option also simplified my mental model. Before, I was always stressed that if I bought a few months, loved FSD, and then bought the lifetime, I would have "wasted" those few months. Plus, every month I owned the car yet didn't buy lifetime FSD made it worth "less" to me: I'd eventually sell the car, so I'd missed out on those few months of usage. I do wish Tesla offered a price lock: so long as you maintain your FSD subscription, your price is guaranteed for 5 years. Otherwise, it does feel scary: I spend 50k on a car for its FSD and over time, they jack the price to $200 or $500/month. Also, if they jack up FSD prices and then lower base car prices, your Tesla's value decreases effectively, which feels even worse.
- Gareth321 9mo ago
  I agree. The current price is 7/8 years of ownership, which can't be transferred. The subscription currently makes a lot more sense. Personally, I think if one buys a Tesla today they should impute the cost of an FSD subscription over the expected lifetime. It's excellent. If that cost is too high, fair enough. Buy a less smart car.
  - ehfeng 9mo ago
    Yeah, I also own a dumb Prius and love it nostalgically.
nunez 9mo ago
I love FSD, but this is awful. Given that this is almost certainly being done to juice the FSD subscriber count so that Elon hits his 10M sub target, I'd even go as far as to say that this is legally questionable. Also, this move is beyond stupid IMO. Autopilot is Tesla's ONLY moat now that their Supercharger network is open to everyone. Gating that behind a $99/mo sub is guaranteed to make buyers shop elsewhere, especially now that the EV tax credit is no longer and the OEMs (and our O&G friendly admin) are rallying around EREVs.
Ardren 9mo ago
Why is this story at position 261 with 269 points (@6hr)? It's been demoted so much that it's behind a 6hr post about Pistachio's with 1 point (also 6hr old) This site has become ridiculously biased.
- Ronsenshi 9mo ago
  All the Tesla investors and tech bros with stocks in TSLA are not interested in having negative news about their gold-plated goose out in the public.
dissent 9mo ago
Does anybody actually find Autopilot to be more than a novelty? Having to look ahead like a robot and keep your hands on the wheel is exactly how you drive without it. It feels like placing trust in the system and accepting risk without any tangible benefit.
GuestFAUniverse 9mo ago
That's awesome. Lane-keeping is mandatory in the EU since 7/2024. They _cannot_ sell a car without it there.
DAX660 9mo ago
[dead]

345 points by CharlesW 9mo ago

physhster 9mo ago

Is this an ad for comma.ai? Because it sure reads like one...

jackmarshl0w 9mo ago

[dead]

7e 9mo ago

[flagged]

ben_w 9mo ago
"Who is more foolish? The fool or the fool who follows him?" - Obi Wan Kenobi - George Lucas
- kccoder 9mo ago
  I'm going to go with the fool being followed. At least the following fool realizes that they need guidance, but just chose the wrong leader.
scottyah 9mo ago
This sounds like almost every other product I buy, except it's designed to eventually save a lot of lives? Imagine being mad that a kitchen knife has no liability for what you do with it, or a motorcycle.
- FireBeyond 9mo ago
  Imagine if professional medical equipment designed to save lives had no liability clauses? Except they do. Which is why there's FDA certification and regulation and the Lifepak 15s I used as a paramedic cost around $40,000. Mercedes was also willing to put their money where their mouth was and accept liability for vehicle software issues. (Cue here the Tesla stans talking about "how limited" that was. Almost perhaps as if it was for a good reason and not "if it compiles, ship it").
  - ericd 9mo ago
    It sounds like the point you're making is that manufacturers taking liability will make all of this unaffordable for normal people, similar to how medicine has become unaffordable? I don't think that's actually your point, but it sort of sounds like it.
    - FireBeyond 9mo ago
      There are probably elements of that but my read of the post I replied to was "why on earth would you expect manufacturers of equipment to accept liability for misuse?" (I actually agree about misuse, but malfunction is not the same.) And "in the context of something that is designed to save lives"... well, absolutely, many manufacturers do and will and even "have to".
- 7e 9mo ago
  Currently it's more dangerous to use FSD than to not use FSD. They can charge me when it's not a danger to society; I will gladly pay. Most likely I will be paying Waymo.
  - scottyah 9mo ago
    It's not though? The data shows less fatal accidents and less accidents overall. Waymo is definitely doing better so far, they have Level 4 autonomy already while Tesla is still on Level 2. https://www.tesla.com/fsd/safety https://www.tesla.com/fsd/safety

dmitrygr 9mo ago

This is similar to GM‘s Super Cruise, which is similar in functionality and also a monthly subscription.

deleted 9mo ago
[deleted]
rootusrootus 9mo ago
GM Super Cruise (and Ford's Blue Cruise) is hands-free, autosteer is not. Ford has an equivalent of autosteer available without a subscription, I would guess GM does too.

coolspot 9mo ago

$99/mo is for FSD, not just lane keeping. The article doesn’t explain what happens to simple lane leeping. Surely it should be free like in any other car (like my Volvo).

dawnerd 9mo ago
Lane keep is autopilot which is going away (for new cars). FSD doesn't have basic lane keep. The real question will be what happens to "legacy" cars with autopilot.
- rootusrootus 9mo ago
  > The real question will be what happens to "legacy" cars with autopilot. Tesla cannot take anything away that was on the Monroney sticker. This includes AP.
- loourr 9mo ago
  Lane keeping is a default feature for free on all tesla's and this article doesn't say it's going away.
  - dawnerd 9mo ago
    It’s autopilot and yes on current models. New models will not get it. That’ll be FSD only.
  - giobox 9mo ago
    Its being reported elsewhere that future new teslas will not have basic autopilot (the name Tesla use for the standard lane keep assist they offer) at all, the only way to get any form of lane keep assist will be to subscribe to FSD. The wording in the ars article linked here does a terrible job of explaining the change. Existing Teslas which already have basic Autopilot will still continue to have the feature. New Teslas will now only have "Traffic Aware Cruise Control" as standard without lane assist, i.e. keeps pace with traffic and can stop/start, but user still has to provide steering input.

dawnerd 9mo ago

He said the price will increase as it gets more capable. Funny though, they've lowered the price of FSD over the years...

rootusrootus 9mo ago
He lies so consistently, it continues to impress me how effectively he controls TSLA investors.
- deleted 9mo ago
  [deleted]
- LunaSea 9mo ago
  Stockholm syndroom, they are a captive audience, they already bought the stock.

stefan_ 9mo ago

Is the article confused or will there literally be no lane-keeping without the subscription? Because nowadays every car rental place bottom of the barrel Kia has lane-keeping.

loourr 9mo ago
it's click-bait, the lane keeping is free and is not going away
- alistairSH 9mo ago
  Do you have a source for that? I thought all of Tesla's "default" driver assistance was part of Autopilot, which is going away. I haven't seen any mention of decoupling various features from Autopilot (with some remaining free, just without the branding).
  - Sparyjerry 9mo ago
    They just changed the name from autopilot to Traffic-Aware Cruise Control with Autosteer. This is just more anti-Tesla propaganda.
cbsks 9mo ago
Tesla’s “autosteer” is significantly more advanced than the “lane keeping” feature I’ve seen in rental cars, or my own 2023 Jeep. My understanding is that autosteer will actively keep the car centered in the middle of the lane, while the “lane keeping” I’ve experienced will only adjust the steering when you approach the lane edge, which pin balls you back and forth like a drunk driver.
- FireBeyond 9mo ago
  In mid tier and premium tier cars, lane keeping is generally either implicitly or explicitly lane centering. My Navigator calls it lane keeping but it is centering, and my Audi specifically calls out lane centering.

ipv6ipv4 9mo ago

In light of recent trends, Tesla is signaling supreme confidence in its prospects by already pursuing enshittification.

adamkittelson 9mo ago
They’ve been enshittifying for the better part of a decade. The model 3 launching without rain sensors and taking years to get any where near comparable with cameras comes to mind.
- rootusrootus 9mo ago
  It still is not anywhere close with cameras. My guess is that it will not ever get better than it is today.

siliconc0w 9mo ago

Article is unclear but if this is saying you can't even get basic ADAS w/out $99/mo that is a pretty big deal, especially if it's applied to existing cars. Basic stay-in-line and start/stop following in traffic has become pretty standard for almost a decade at this point and paywalling it now would be outrageous. I have a 2017 car that does this.

tokyobreakfast 9mo ago
Basic ADAS is government-mandated. Even shitbox Toyotas with traditional ignition keys have it for free.
- rootusrootus 9mo ago
  Do you have a source for that? I'm not aware of any regulation requiring ADAS. Even automatic emergency breaking is not yet required for a few more years.
- hermanzegerman 9mo ago
  Well Teslas now ship without the Lane Keeping. So the Toyota Shitbox has better ADAS (and surely also a better quality)
- enragedcacti 9mo ago
  It is in the EU but in the US ADAS won't be mandated until 2029. It would tank your IIHS rating though and all major mfgs have met a voluntary pledge to have >95% light duty vehicles ship with autobraking by 2023: https://www.iihs.org/news/detail/automakers-fulfill-autobrake-pledge-for-light-duty-vehicles https://www.iihs.org/news/detail/automakers-fulfill-autobrak...
tzs 9mo ago
According to other articles adaptive cruise control (which works down to 0 mph in stop and go traffic) is being kept standard. It is just the rest of Autopilot that is moving to a subscription.

_23sd 9mo ago

They're offering 50% off the subscription to people who used to have Enhanced Autopilot [1]. As I predicted when the CEO's compensation plan had a part tied to FSD subscriptions, they are going to push more people onto it by bundling more features and cutting the price. [1] https://x.com/SawyerMerritt/status/2014751111803032049 https://x.com/SawyerMerritt/status/2014751111803032049

boringg 9mo ago
Show me the incentives i'll show you the outcomes.
fc417fc802 9mo ago
Reminds me of when an ISP offered me a discount if I would agree to sign up with their partnered TV service. I agreed on the condition that I didn't have to rent a box. But you can't use the service without a box ... ? Who cares, I got a discount.

nxtfari 9mo ago

My guess is Tesla is desperately in need of Q1 revenue and they want people to scarcity buy FSD lifetime @ $8K. Otherwise the strategy doesn’t make any sense. They’re saying FSD and basic Autopilot will go behind subscription and that subscription prices are expected to go up. Basically laying out that they’re planning to lock you into a subscription and then price gouge. It’s so transparent that I think the point isn’t actually the gouge but to make that threat move lifetime FSD sales.

thefourthchime 9mo ago
Tesla is going to stop selling FSD outright on Feb 14th. It will be subscription only.
scottyah 9mo ago
1. There's a CA lawsuit against the FSD name, Tesla has to fix it by Feb 14th (the last day FSD is being sold). I wonder if it'll just be a rebrand for the new service. https://www.dmv.ca.gov/portal/news-and-media/news-releases/dmv-finds-tesla-violated-california-state-law/ https://www.dmv.ca.gov/portal/news-and-media/news-releases/d... 2. Elon's Trillion Dollar Payout is tied to a certain number of FSD Subscriptions. 3. Some consumers were sold that they would get hardware upgrades for FSD. I'm pretty sure Tesla would like to minimize that, and I expect incentives for those people to purchase new vehicle without FSD. 4. Subscriptions drive our economy, I don't know the details but it seems like every company wants subscriptions over one time purchases. I honestly don't think they want a lot of people with lifetime FSD, it's disappearing without a lot of news.
- lotsofpulp 9mo ago
  > 4. Subscriptions drive our economy, I don't know the details but it seems like every company wants subscriptions over one time purchases. Every person I know wants a subscription, too. Who wouldn’t want a nest egg throwing off passive income?
  - CuriouslyC 9mo ago
    A lot of entrepreneurs hate the saasification of everything, and don't want to create sub services. They tow the line because investors LOVE subs and will look at you like you're insane if you disagree.

moomoo11 9mo ago

Taycan Turbo GT mogs any Plaid cult member.

wing-_-nuts 9mo ago

These sort of shenanigans for even basic lanekeeping makes a very strong case for more open source solutions like comma

greenpresident 9mo ago
Pressing the lane assistant button on a Mercedes steering wheel and getting a “you’ll need to activate your subscription first” message really drove up my blood pressure.
- hermanzegerman 9mo ago
  You know you can just buy it?
  - greenpresident 9mo ago
    It’s built in. There is a dedicated button for it. Hard to justify imho.
  - b40d-48b2-979e 9mo ago
    They already bought the car.
    - whynotmaybe 9mo ago
      I'm wondering whether it's a generational vision and that the concept of ownership of software with hardware is slowly becoming obsolete. Every young adult I know uses a subscription for everything I used to buy. Even though they own the device on which they consume it. Spotify for cd's, Netflix-Disney-Amazon for vhs and dvd's, Udemy-Masterclass for books.
      - tzs 9mo ago
        CDs were around $16 in 2000, which is equivalent to around $30 today, which is around 2.3 times what a Spotify premium subscription costs for one person. Equivalently, a Spotify premium subscription in 2000 would be a little under $7. I guarantee that if you asked young adults in 2000 if they would be interested in a subscription that lets them listen to nearly everything available on CD, at any time, as often as they wished, for $7/month they would have been ecstatic. Same for DVDs, which were typically in the $20-25 range for new releases in 2000. They would not have been quite as happy as they would have been with Spotify because of the way video is split among several streaming services, but it would still be seen as a tremendous improvement.

cruffle_duffle 9mo ago

$99/month plus tax is a pretty fucking steep price for any kind of subscription! Holy cow!

Analemma_ 9mo ago
If you have do a lot of driving, $99/mo. seems like a decent price to have the car drive itself, especially if it got to the Waymo point where absolutely no driver attention was needed and you could watch Netflix the whole time. The issue with FSD isn't the price, it's that no matter what Elon and his fanboys say, it doesn't bloody work and Waymo is blowing them out of the water in capability.
- eldaisfish 9mo ago
  The “if” here is lifting many metric tonnes of assumptions.
jdsully 9mo ago
I sign up if I want to do a long road trip and cancel after. Worked great for that.

MarkusWandel 9mo ago

Wait a minute. My recent-ish car has LKAS. It recognizes white lines (or possibly curbs too) and if both boundaries of the lane are recongized, will steer for you - for 10 seconds maybe, before it nags you provide some steering input. But in those 10 seconds it's perfectly capable of smoothly steering around bends in the road on its own. And it is a useful safety feature even if only nudging the steering wheel while you're holding it. So you don't get even that in a Tesla without (now) ponying up $$? Something that's a standard feature in my non cloud connected (or connectable!) "so last century" fossil fuel vehicle?

kronks 9mo ago
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thewebguyd 9mo ago
Yeah I don't get Tesla's move here. Lane Keep Assist has been a standard feature in most new cars, EV or not, starting around ~2019ish. IIRC, the EU now has regulations mandating lane keep assist in all new vehicles sold. Heck, a cheap base model Maza 3 I rented had lane keep assist. Tesla only stands to lose by gatekeeping what's now a basic feature behind a paywall.
- b40d-48b2-979e 9mo ago
  It checks out with all the other awful software changes they're making like whatever "curvature assist" is that randomly brakes where it doesn't need to, or when it gets confused about what road I'm on while on the freeway and suddenly drops my 75mph cruise control to 55mph and slams the brakes. I miss having a dumb cruise control.
- Sparyjerry 9mo ago
  This article is completely false. What was previously called autopilot is rebraned and still free. FSD is what is 99/month.
toast0 9mo ago
Is your car really not connected/connectable? I have a 2014 car that's connectable but no driver assistance; I had a 2017 (delivered mid 2016) with lane keeping and emergency braking which seemed pretty new and exciting, and it's connectable, all I would need to do is pay a big annual fee and also setup a 3g CDMA network. Couldn't do much with either if it's connected; I pulled the 3g modem from the 2014 when it was convenient cause I was worried it was using power while off. Not that lane keeping needs a connection, just that I'm surprised they put it on a car without a modem.

throwawa14223 9mo ago

Just like all subscriptions this kills my interest in it. Tech is only interesting if it isn’t locked in a corporate data center.

dylan604 9mo ago
you must be really bored with pretty much all the popular tech today then
- jjulius 9mo ago
  ... and? Nothing wrong with not buying into what's popular.
  - dylan604 9mo ago
    and nothing. it's a comment on how everything is closed tech by the platforms, not a knock on being bored with that fact. i fully agree and do not participate on those platforms.
- wrxd 9mo ago
  Not the person you’re responding to but yes, pretty much all of modern tech is awful. The specs are pretty good but then you don’t really own it, you get limitations on what you can use it for, you get rent seeking and walled gardens everywhere. Even if you’re paying you get ads and get tracked. Updates make products worse more often than not. What are you excited about? AI slop?
  - dylan604 9mo ago
    > What are you excited about? AI slop? A little credit please?! I don't use AI anything. I code my stuff the old fashioned way with nested if/else statements that make you cry trying to follow along. And damn the coworker that interrupts your debugging asking if you got their email or not. https://img.devrant.com/devrant/rant/r_55338_NBSDq.jpg https://img.devrant.com/devrant/rant/r_55338_NBSDq.jpg
- 9mo ago

deleted 9mo ago

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YY59487598347 9mo ago

Do BYD and other Chinese EVs have this insane subscription scheme for basic features on their cars, or is that only a feature of North American/European manufacturers?

TacoCommander 9mo ago
I am also curious about this, how does the average person in China feel about subscriptions?
- loloquwowndueo 9mo ago
  BYD is available in a lot of countries outside China.
SilverElfin 9mo ago
It looks to be completely free on most BYD models - as in no one time fee or subscription fee, but just part of the car: https://insideevs.com/news/750244/byd-smart-driving-cheap/ https://insideevs.com/news/750244/byd-smart-driving-cheap/
- apublicfrog 9mo ago
  Wow, I've never seen an article that misleading from the first line! > "Full Self-Driving" costs $8,000. BYD includes its version for free on a $9,300 car. These are unrelated things. Tesla's comparative offering (at the time this article was written) was also included for free.
  - roryirvine 9mo ago
    So, what you're saying is that Tesla used to be as good as a $9,300 BYD but is now going to be worse? No wonder they need to hide behind a tariff wall.
    - apublicfrog 9mo ago

deleted 9mo ago

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ModernMech 9mo ago

This is part of the long con. They promised FSD almost a decade ago and as their competitors eclipse them, it's clear Tesla is a) behind and b) will never catch up. So instead of admitting they were wrong all along and doing what's necessary to catch up (add LiDAR to their sensor stack), they are going to quietly "pivot" Tesla to a "ai and robotics" company, with the monthly fee they'll continue to bilk anyone who is still enthralled enough to believe them on their FSD grift, but they will run the same scam as they did with FSD (Musk will say "humanoid robots for the home in in 3 years", yet we will still be waiting for them to be useful in the year 2035)

rootusrootus 9mo ago
I'm not any kind of Elon fan, but I think it is a little more nuanced than that. FSD is definitely more advanced than any regular competition. It is not as capable as Waymo, that is for sure, but that is not a car you can own.
- ModernMech 9mo ago
  Their vision-only system will never live up to promises without inventing an AGI-level inference engine. Maintaining an aura that they are capable of doing this is part of the con. A kind of, shangri-la promise of harmonious one-true vision system that to date has not come true despite promises of its impending coming.
- Zigurd 9mo ago
  Apart from the technical limitations of FSD, Elon hasn't thought through the business model. Claiming that Tesla cars will be capable of turning into robotaxis seemed plausible a decade ago before all the negative externalities of Airbnb became widely known. Waymo isn't just the Waymo Driver technology and sensor suite. It's charging and cleaning depots. It's product support both for the customer and the vehicle that scales. It's an insane amount of LiDAR acquired 3-D mapping data, plus real time data from Google maps and navigation. Meanwhile Tesla has replaced some of the drivers sitting in the front seat with chase cars. Just to make the technically correct claim that the cars are no longer supervised by someone in the car.

linuxftw 9mo ago

I don't see what the issue is. No one is forced to buy a tesla, no pay for the subscription. It seems likely that self-driving features will require ongoing maintenance and updates for the next several years, it's not like it's 0 cost to them to develop and distribute the software. I'm not a Tesla fan, I will never own a fully self driving car, but I don't have a problem with a company charging money for features that consumers want. There are about a dozen other car manufacturers in the US alone that can sell self driving cars without a subscription if they want to.

rootusrootus 9mo ago
> self-driving features will require ongoing maintenance and updates for the next several years Autopilot is not self-driving, it is lane-centering with traffic aware cruise control. It has not gotten any maintenance or updates in years, as far as we can tell. Identical functionality is available from many competitors with no subscription. This is a noteworthy decision for Tesla because AP has long been one of their defining features, dropping it is a big step backward just as the market caught up.
- linuxftw 9mo ago
  Well, the market will decide if dropping it in favor of a subscription-based upgrade is worth it or not. Not sure why anyone would be upset, this all seems perfectly reasonable.
cosmicgadget 9mo ago
They are taking away a standard feature for most modern cars as a sad way to push more people into their shitty CaaS model. Nobody is forced to buy a Tesla, correct, but that isn't a requirement for newsworthiness.

tra3 9mo ago

I would gladly pay $99/month if this was honest FSD. I started tracking my time consistently since end of December and in the past 2 weeks I spend 23 hours driving. That's already only $4/hour. I haven't been keeping up with the progress in this space. Last I heard, Benz introduced some sort of self driving feature AND accepted full liability for it (whereas Tesla does not). How does Benz's self driving compare to Teslas?

starik36 9mo ago
We've had FSD trial for 4 months in the middle of last year. I work from home so I can't really justify $100 a month. However, we did take a few trips (about 60 miles in each direction) to see family through downtown LA. I was honestly stunned by how far the tech has come. It basically drove us door to door without a single intervention.
- tra3 9mo ago
  I talked to about 3 people about this that have personal experience with Tesla autopilot and that's been the feedback. So where's the gap? What's the problem?
  - starik36 9mo ago
    I don't think there is a problem per se. There are probably still edge cases out there that I didn't experience. But overall, I think the tech is ready to roll.
Auracle 9mo ago
Benz's full self driving is only up to 40mph and only when it has a car to follow in front of you.
- Nemi 9mo ago
  When you said this, lemming's all jumping off a cliff came to mind...
- 9mo ago

ChrisArchitect 9mo ago

Previously: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=46618435 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=46618435

seshagiric 9mo ago

It's a tradeoff, too early to say if it's a dumb move. Side A: Tesla can grow FSD subscription revenue by making FSD + Autopilot completely based on subscription. Lot more people use Autopilot than FSD. In the happy path such users will pay the subscription and that revenue will increase. Side B: Autopilot (aka lane keeping) is fast becoming default option across manufacturers. Tesla will take a dip in sales if such 'basic' option is no longer available. Whether side A > side B is to be seen.

cosmicgadget 9mo ago
I'd prefer to evaluate it from the viewpoint of someone outside the Tesla c-suite.
lowbloodsugar 9mo ago
$22k Corolla has it. Not paying $99/mo for it. The issue is not that “FSD” is $99/mo. The issue is that a feature of $22k cars (lane keeping) is behind the $99/mo paywall. Basically not enough people were buying the subscription for Elon to get his payout. But someone who just wants auto steering isn’t going to decide they’ll pay $99/mo for that. So this is just going to make people who like that feature not buy a new Tesla when the time comes.

dwa3592 9mo ago

Time for comma to shine? https://comma.ai/ https://comma.ai/

deleted 9mo ago

[deleted]

waffletower 9mo ago

Tesla's autopilot was so clumsy that I stopped using it and forgot about it years ago. I like the adaptive cruise control though, it is more transparent and decidedly more of a benefit, except for its phantom braking moments. Autopilot's requirement that your hands be on the wheel (and do nothing) is a strain over time, definitely boring, and a terrible interface. I don't understand why people would pay for such an awkward feature. The monthlong demos of Full Self Driving I tried were even more awkward. The need to keep your hands on the wheel required a different but nearly equivalent cognitive load to actual steering, when using it in residential and city traffic. The crucial difference is that "the car was driving me" rather than "I was driving the car". Tesla can't convince everyone that their driver assist technology warrants product status; take away driver autonomy and make them pay for it seems like a failure to me. It won't be a product until you can sit in the back, close your eyes and safely arrive at your destination. Good luck getting to that level of quality with this business model. Tesla should be giving the tech away to its car owners and collecting as much data as they can, right? I have points to spare for the astroturf Muskovites to downvote my honest (but embarrassed) customer perspective.

nehal3m 9mo ago
I drive one on Dutch roads, and a lot of the back roads (60km/h) are one lane with dotted lines on the side like here: [1] If you turn on TACC, it will constantly whine that you're hugging the side of 'your lane'. But it's one lane for both directions, you're supposed to hug your side! In my SAAB I used cruise control anywhere I expected to maintain speed for any amount of time. In the Y I don't bother on this type of road because it bitches at me constantly and sometimes even jerks me to the middle of the lane. That's never happened with oncoming traffic but I'm not risking it. [1]https://shorturl.at/jSQhP https://shorturl.at/jSQhP (shortened, Maps links are huge)
vlovich123 9mo ago
I would recommend testing out the latest FSD. It’s made huge forward steps vs what was there before.
- deleted 9mo ago

dotcoma 9mo ago

How much does braking cost ?

ModernMech 9mo ago
Depends on your social credit score.
- direwolf20 9mo ago
  The American social credit score is just called credit score.
perfmode 9mo ago
$0.00000008 per Newton of deceleration force applied to the vehicle. Pressing the brake pedal and maintaining a stationary position is billed at a rate of $0.003 per second of immobility. Energy dissipation during the braking event costs an additional $0.00001 per Joule of heat generated.

dsr_ 9mo ago

Time to update https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_predictions_for_autonomous_Tesla_vehicles_by_Elon_Musk https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_predictions_for_autono...

enopod_ 9mo ago
this is hilarious :)

TacoCommander 9mo ago

Our 2020 Model S came with Autopilot. It was part of the purchase price. We don't use FSD, we don't use Autopilot either. But I'll be goddamed if he tries to take away something I paid for.

square_usual 9mo ago
This is only for new cars sold, as they can't take away features that were included in the advertised price for a car when it was sold.
- MBCook 9mo ago
  Haven’t they done that before?
- BigTTYGothGF 9mo ago
  They can't yet.
- tencentshill 9mo ago
  That's true as long a the law is enforced. Which regulator is going to stop them?
  - square_usual 9mo ago
    In this case, customers can sue them.
  - hobofan 9mo ago
    Canadian ones?

testing22321 9mo ago

Somewhat related, there are now robotaxis giving rides to customers in Austin with no driver, and no safety monitor inside at all. Progress, for sure.

thechao 9mo ago
Waymo's been in Austin for a while! Seeing them on MOPAC, when I don't think they're supposed to be on the highway, is always charming.
- verdverm 9mo ago
  a while for sure, Waymo had cars all over last time I was there ~5 years ago Waymo expanded highway operations at the end of last year https://apnews.com/article/waymo-autonomous-driverless-cars-california-freeways-00c52a015f370ff76355716e70e99cb9 https://apnews.com/article/waymo-autonomous-driverless-cars-...
Zigurd 9mo ago
There's no monitor in the car. But there is a chase car with a monitor in it. Technically correct is the best kind isn't it?
- testing22321 9mo ago
  Yes, correct. The next step will be remote monitors with the ability to drive if needed. That will be identical to Waymo I now. Then the next step is nobody watching. Progress is fantastic, it means more choices for consumers, lower prices, better tech.
  - Zigurd 9mo ago
    No, actually, nobody remote drives a Waymo. If you don't know how Waymo works, you also don't know how far behind is Tesla. There are fundamental obstacles to Tesla ever being a viable robotaxi.

SilverElfin 9mo ago

[flagged]

qwerpy 9mo ago
Politics aside, FSD is quite awesome these days. It’s pretty much at “press a button and enjoy the ride” capability, although you do have to make a show of paying attention to the road. My truck came with lifetime FSD which I’m happy with, and two family members pay for the monthly subscription because of the quality of life improvement.
- Zigurd 9mo ago
  Would you take a nap in the backseat while you ride? How much more improvement do you think it would need before you'd be willing to do that?
  - ronnier 9mo ago
    Safety wise, yes. But sometimes the routing is weird and I want to override that
  - Marsymars 9mo ago
    This is basically impossible to determine based on how safe the car "feels". e.g. if it has a 99.9% chance of doing your daily commute without crashing and without you intervening, you can monitor it closely from the driver's seat for 6 months and there'll be ~90% chance that everything looks fine and you never need to intervene. But then if you start napping in the backseat on your commute, there's a 70% chance you'll crash within 5 years.
    - Zigurd 9mo ago
      There are enough people who FA'ed and FO'ed in the form of ending up dead, or killing others, that we're not stuck in abstract calculations or speculation.
ericmay 9mo ago

Someone1234 9mo ago

A new Tesla, without subscription, now has worse Steering Assist than a $22K Toyota Corolla. Back when Autopilot launched, in consumer cars, it was pretty unique. But the market has moved on significantly, and basic Steering Assist/Full-Speed-Range Automatic Cruise Control, are pretty universal features today.

buggy6257 9mo ago
My 5 year old Subaru has been able to lane keep and auto follow to the point that a 2h drive on the freeway is me tapping the wheel every ten seconds to keep it enabled while I watch for idiots. It has been able to do this since I bought it, and I haven’t paid a dime extra. Car cost 30k.
- drcongo 9mo ago
  My 18 year old Toyota Vellfire does the same.
- Waterluvian 9mo ago
  I have a 2020 Forester and I've come to describing it as "I no-longer drive on the highway, I manage the car." Sometimes I'll get nervous and take over. But even in stop-and-go traffic, it has behaved perfectly. My only complaint is that there's an over-eager PID loop with lane keeping. If I want to pass a transport truck and want to kind of edge to the left of my lane when doing so, it will keep trying to compensate, which I can feel in the wheel, so I compensate for as well. And if I let go of the wheel and let it win, it suddenly flings me towards the right side of the lane. I suspect this is because it isn't programmed to think that I'm making adjustments, it probably just thinks there's some weirdness in the vehicle dynamics/road characteristics that requires extra compensation.
  - Chilinot 9mo ago
    My volvo also has a "not perfectly tuned" PID loop. With "autopilot" engaged it keeps weaving constantly left and right inside the lane im in. Have gotten used to keeping a firm-ish pressure on the steering wheel at all times to compensate. But drivers behind me must have thought me drunk before i got the hang of it.

t1234s 9mo ago

The basic autopilot is very useful. It would be nice if they offered it as a one-time fee when ordering your car.

gambiting 9mo ago

The real question is why buys Teslas now, given that their owner is a proven fascist showing nazi salutes on stage. Do you have to say "sieg heil" to start it too?

weirdmantis69 9mo ago
good little sheeple.
- gambiting 9mo ago
  The people who buy teslas without looking at anything about the person who runs the company behind them?
savagej 9mo ago
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baggachipz 9mo ago

I'm glad I got rid of my Teslas, they are always doing their best to make the experience worse. Stage three of enshittification from them. I loved it back when it was stage 1.

mancerayder 9mo ago
What did you move to? The speed is what I like, and the simplicity when I bought it. I hate 10,000 trim options with random prices like BMW and having to argue with a sales guy - just gimme the price!
- baggachipz 9mo ago
  I have a reservation for a Rivian R2. Assuming they can cross the mass-production threshold, it'll be an even better Tesla than Teslas are. Better fit/finish, also fast, similar cost, no Nazi leader.

t1234s 9mo ago

FSD makes sense as a subscription as it's something that gets updated all of the time. Subscriptions to things built into the car like heated seats seems like a way to scam money out of people.

Someone1234 9mo ago
I agree; but Autopilot unlike FSD hasn't been updated in several years. It doesn't contain maps or context of the roads, it is just Auto-Steer + Lane-Change + Full-Range Cruise Control under one brand-umbrella. Mostly useful on the Motorways/Freeways, and commonly found in competitor's vehicles.
- t1234s 9mo ago
  If you have the basic "Free" Autopilot was it possible to upgrade it in the app to Enhanced Autopilot to get the lane change feature?
  - Someone1234 9mo ago
    It was at some points; I believed it was priced between $2K-4K depending on the point in time and either offered post-purchased or only during ordering, again, depending on which time-period.
palata 9mo ago
My Garmin receives updates and I don't have to pay a subscription for that. Hell I don't even need updates if it does what it should. Often the updates are there to fix bugs because the software was sold before being ready.
nullocator 9mo ago
Why does FSD need to get updated all the time?

deleted 9mo ago

[deleted]

lisp2240 9mo ago

All Teslas should be banned. This has gone on long enough.

fortran77 9mo ago

The latest version of FSD is amazing. We have it on our Plaids (2024 and 2026 models) and I probably only actually "drive" 5% of the time. There's a camera to see if you're paying attention to the road, so no longer any need to keep your hands on the wheel. It'll start from a parking space and go all the way into my house and back into the garage. Of course, I don't trust it as much as I trust Waymo's system, and I'm very careful when using it in rain or fog...

cosmicgadget 9mo ago
So you're saying people should just pay for the subscription? Seems like tangential FSD(S)-glazing here.
eldaisfish 9mo ago
Cameras wired into an internet connected car is the #1 reason why I will never buy a car like a Tesla. Anecdotes like yours are often from the point of view of someone in California - sunny, clear weather most of the year. In monsoon rain, fog, snow, or unusual markings on the road, all these systems break down.
- fortran77 9mo ago
  > Cameras wired into an internet connected car is the #1 reason why I will never buy a car like a Tesla. Well then, this isn't the car for you. For many other people the safety features are important. I wouldn't mind if every car had a camera that made sure the driver was paying attention and didn't fall asleep.
  - eldaisfish 9mo ago
    That’s completely valid but the problem for me is the fact that you do not control the internet connection in these cars. A camera does not need an internet connection to monitor the driver.

1970-01-01 9mo ago

$99! Not worth it for anyone doing less than 100 miles/day.

nntwozz 9mo ago

I'm 41 and I've never been comfortable with even cruise control, when I drive I DRIVE. I can't shake the feeling of trusting an already complex machine to yet another layer of complexity through software. --- The more they overthink the plumbing, the easier it is to stop up the drain. — Scotty, Star Trek III: The Search for Spock

dzhiurgis 9mo ago
[flagged]

clpm4j 9mo ago

I've tried the various flavors of self-driving in my Tesla over the past several years, and essentially it came down to a three-strikes rule for me - after the third time that car jerkily exited the self-driving mode on it own (the third time being in a slight bend on the highway at night) and spiked my heart rate to must have been an all-time high as I manually corrected in time to avoid disaster.. I said "nope, this is a decent electric car but I'm driving it myself from now on." Waymo on the other hand, I trust it with my life on a weekly basis and have never had cause for concern (fingers crossed I didn't just jinx it).

ryandrake 9mo ago
Three strikes is a lot of leniency to give to a machine that is carrying you and loved ones down the road at 70mph. The minute I saw a single instance of unexpected steering, braking, or accelerating behavior out of a car that is not damaged, I'd be returning it under warranty.

ArekDymalski 9mo ago

What will be the next step? ignition? wipers? opening passenger doors? charging for functionality that several manufacturers offer for past several years sounds like desperation to get any revenue.

palata 9mo ago
As long as people buy them, they have no reason not to do it. What I can't understand is why people buy those cars in the first place.

jmward01 9mo ago

I work hard to keep subscriptions out of my life. I will do everything in my power to not have a subscription as part of any car I own. The problem is it is likely out of my hands. I have a 21 yo car and a 12 yo car and will eventually have to get something 'modern' (worse) that forces spyware/subscriptions on me just to get from point at to point b. I will have to pay astronomical prices on a worse experience for the privilege of having my data sold and the opportunity to pay them monthly. I want to scream when I see things like this but to who? I wonder how hard it is to electrify a 20yo car....

jmb99 9mo ago
> I have a 21 yo car and a 12 yo car and will eventually have to get something 'modern' (worse) that forces spyware/subscriptions on me just to get from point at to point b I daily a 30 year old car. There exists a sweet spot of reliability, safety, and comfort (probably the early-mid 2000s) that in theory, you should never have to buy a vehicle outside of, newer or older. There will always be clean old cars in good shape you can buy, you don't need a new vehicle. Unless you can't buy gasoline anymore. But that's still quite a long ways away imo.
- jmward01 9mo ago
  luckily I don't drive much. The one car is just falling apart and is ridiculously expensive to maintain (don't buy a used Mercedes, ever). The other is just not fun to be in but at least it gets reasonable gas mileage. I really want an electric vehicle, especially the way things are going right now, but buying anything built in the last 10 years is just depressing at best and electric vehicle life is much lower on average than ICE lifespan due to battery life. Ah well. Maybe this will push me to an electric scooter for all the in-town travel and I will only need a 'real car' once a month or so.
Marsymars 9mo ago
There are still current-model cars that are effectively subscription-free and/or where you can pull the fuse for the telematics/connectivity and everything else still functions as expected.

wscott 9mo ago

The funny part is that the Tesla doesn't have a basic dumb cruise control. It only has "traffic-aware" cruise control which uses the cameras and doesn't use the new FSD code so it has lots of glitches and phantom braking and decides for itself what speed to use. My wife just wants to set the speed and have the car go that speed.

Marsymars 9mo ago
Do any cars with assisted cruise control have the ability to step down to dumb cruise control? (I know my car doesn't - the lower trims have dumb cruise control, and you lose that in favour of assisted if you bump up to a higher trim.)

tehwebguy 9mo ago

$8,000 / $99 / month is 6 years 8 months. How long do people keep their Tesla normally?

nixass 9mo ago

Why would Tesla lock adaptive cruise control when others have it subscription free?

Marsymars 9mo ago
To be fair, you can say that about a lot of features/manufacturers. e.g. Why does Toyota lock remote start via app when others have it subscription free?

trentnix 9mo ago

Is this a precursor to Tesla offering autopilot in vehicles from other manufacturers? Sure, other manufactuers would have to adopt the hardware and integrate with the autopilot interface, but self-driving is inevitable and Tesla autopilot is the best.

ehfeng 9mo ago

I've been using Autopilot for years, but recently subscribed to FSD for a long weekend roadtrip. It changed my mind on the value of FSD. While unfortunate for consumers, it cleans up the offerings. For four years, I didn't buy FSD because Autopilot was good enough to cover highway driving and I couldn't justify $99/month for the "last mile". If you strip out Autopilot and given the latest FSD, I would 100% buy the FSD subscription. Removing the lifetime purchase option also simplified my mental model. Before, I was always stressed that if I bought a few months, loved FSD, and then bought the lifetime, I would have "wasted" those few months. Plus, every month I owned the car yet didn't buy lifetime FSD made it worth "less" to me: I'd eventually sell the car, so I'd missed out on those few months of usage. I do wish Tesla offered a price lock: so long as you maintain your FSD subscription, your price is guaranteed for 5 years. Otherwise, it does feel scary: I spend 50k on a car for its FSD and over time, they jack the price to $200 or $500/month. Also, if they jack up FSD prices and then lower base car prices, your Tesla's value decreases effectively, which feels even worse.

Gareth321 9mo ago
I agree. The current price is 7/8 years of ownership, which can't be transferred. The subscription currently makes a lot more sense. Personally, I think if one buys a Tesla today they should impute the cost of an FSD subscription over the expected lifetime. It's excellent. If that cost is too high, fair enough. Buy a less smart car.
- ehfeng 9mo ago
  Yeah, I also own a dumb Prius and love it nostalgically.

nunez 9mo ago

I love FSD, but this is awful. Given that this is almost certainly being done to juice the FSD subscriber count so that Elon hits his 10M sub target, I'd even go as far as to say that this is legally questionable. Also, this move is beyond stupid IMO. Autopilot is Tesla's ONLY moat now that their Supercharger network is open to everyone. Gating that behind a $99/mo sub is guaranteed to make buyers shop elsewhere, especially now that the EV tax credit is no longer and the OEMs (and our O&G friendly admin) are rallying around EREVs.

Ardren 9mo ago

Why is this story at position 261 with 269 points (@6hr)? It's been demoted so much that it's behind a 6hr post about Pistachio's with 1 point (also 6hr old) This site has become ridiculously biased.

Ronsenshi 9mo ago
All the Tesla investors and tech bros with stocks in TSLA are not interested in having negative news about their gold-plated goose out in the public.

dissent 9mo ago

Does anybody actually find Autopilot to be more than a novelty? Having to look ahead like a robot and keep your hands on the wheel is exactly how you drive without it. It feels like placing trust in the system and accepting risk without any tangible benefit.

GuestFAUniverse 9mo ago

That's awesome. Lane-keeping is mandatory in the EU since 7/2024. They _cannot_ sell a car without it there.

DAX660 9mo ago

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