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Porsche sold more electrified cars in Europe in 2025 than pure gas-powered cars

473 points by m463 10mo ago

turowicz 10mo ago
They sold both of them?! /s
bnchrch 10mo ago
While the headline is interesting. I think the table at the end of the article is more so. - Worldwide sales -10% YoY - China sales -26% YoY And when you cross compare Porsche saying they sold more EV powertrains than their gas equivalents against China's new found foothold as the market leader in consumer electric cars (BYD, NIO, Xiaomi, etc...) Then I think you see an early indication not just of electric car dominance, but of the (very potential) rise of China as the premier automotive super power.
- mrits 10mo ago
  I don’t think anyone is going to keep an advantage in car manufacturing. The way we build them might totally change in a short duration with the rapid advancement in robotics
  - kulahan 10mo ago
    Most advancements in robotics have been for highly generalized robots. We’ve been using robotics to build cars for like 50+ years. They’re extremely good.
    - mrits 9mo ago
      Most practical advancements in robotics have been in and will be in highly specialized systems. Generalized robots are still mostly experimental.
- andyst 10mo ago
  in the australian market theres often comparison between how BYD/(chinese brands) may unseat Tesla (as the scale EV first mover), but I haven't seen what I think is the prize, which is BYD want to take on Toyota as the de facto king of global car making. They want the whole car market, not just EV and are already setup to take that on.
  - coryrc 10mo ago
    Especially as Toyota seems structurally unable to create a good EV. They produced one completely bare-bones model 30 years ago and never expanded past that. At least they're keeping some knowledge of the parts by having PHEVs, but I don't think they're on the leading edge of anything. Maybe they don't need to be and can buy everything from other suppliers, but they're going to be doing a whole lot less than they currently do and not sure they'll keep their profit margin.
    - fy20 10mo ago
      Toyota hybrids are full hybrids however, not mild hybrids like other manufactures, so all you really need is a bigger battery and charger. My 10 year old RAV4 Hybrid (not plug-in) can deliver 160kW just from the electric motors, without the engine. That's 3x a Dacia Spring. They have the technology for motors and control electronics, and they know it works long term without issues. Most of the European EVs are basically just electric city cars, unable to drive long ranges due to small batteries and limited fast charging. And most of them after 100,000km will need a new battery. Doesn't really fit in with Toyota's 'long term reliability' stance. I can't blame Toyota for waiting for the technology to mature before they go all in on EVs. Plus they do have the bz4x / RX which are full EVs you can buy today.
      - formerly_proven 10mo ago
        > Most of the European EVs are basically just electric city cars, unable to drive long ranges due to small batteries and limited fast charging. And most of them after 100,000km will need a new battery. Doesn't really fit in with Toyota's 'long term reliability' stance. Australian cities must be enormous for this statement to make any semblance of sense.
- appplication 10mo ago
  China may become the superpower on volume but I would be surprised if the upper quartile (by price) of western buyers were interested in Chinese vehicles. Too much quality issues across the board on Chinese made products, unless you have a trusted non-Chinese company with stringent quality control (e.g. Apple model). I’m sure they can handily win the lower end of the market though. And yes I’m aware many western manufacturers are shit tier quality.
  - sdwr 10mo ago
    Selling the most cars will eventually translate into making the best cars, with the compounding experience and network effects.
    - willturman 10mo ago
      You'd think so, but also, Tesla.
      - kulahan 10mo ago
        They don’t sell anywhere near the most cars, and their market share is shrinking. They also are a very VERY young manufacturer. This isn’t the right example to use imo. Maybe Jeep? Very popular, dogwater quality. They take nearly half of the Consumer Reports “top 10 worst cars on the road” almost every year.
    - appplication 10mo ago
      > Selling the most x will eventually translate into making the best x It’s a theory for sure, but I don’t think that’s a common strategy for modern capitalism.
      - andyferris 10mo ago
        What about for socialism with Chinese charateristics?
        10mo ago
- itsthecourier 10mo ago
  great analysis
- melenaboija 10mo ago
  > Then I think you see an early indication not just of electric car dominance, but of the (very potential) rise of China as the premier automotive super power. It’s done man. Americans are stuck in ICE engines because they’ve been told they’re “car enthusiasts” while the Chinese have been developing EV technology for years. Meanwhile, European makers are stuck not knowing what to do, make Americans happy or compete with the Chinese. The result: nothing has been done properly. And let’s be real, “car enthusiasts” are going to disappear in one or two generations. Practicality beats enthusiasm for 95% of car use.
  - CalRobert 10mo ago
    Perhaps people in the future will visit the US for the dieselpunk nostalgia, the same way people like seeing classic cars in Cuba.
    - psychoslave 10mo ago
      I strongly doubt any current car will stand longevity of those cars. The maintenance entry cost of anything with integrated electronic is just several order of magnitude in complexity.
      - funkyfiddler69 10mo ago
        What? How so? Isn't it just a bunch of PCBs and sensors whereas gas powered cars are a bunch of awesome nonesense you can gently whack against each other to create different notes and tones? The former requires a special printer while the latter requires tons of machines for precision engineering and the industrial equivalent of smitheries and blacksmiths!
        CalRobert 10mo ago
        Well there’s the drm
        lostlogin 10mo ago
        Ever tried working on a new car versus fixing a pre 1980’s car? Damned if I have any idea what anything is or what to do on a new one. I had a moderate chance of diagnosing and fixing my old Triunph.
- protocolture 10mo ago
  >Then I think you see an early indication not just of electric car dominance, but of the (very potential) rise of China as the premier automotive super power. I thought we were there already tbh. Chinese cars have gone from laughably bad to quality parity in less than a decade. Like even 2 years ago, I was still hearing "the paint the paint" as the last remaining issue. But I dont hear that anymore.
  - irjustin 10mo ago
    In terms of quality they are there, now it's expansion. I, for one, am quite excited for all this competition. I don't care who makes my level 4/5 self driver, I just want it now.
  - msy 10mo ago
    Parity? Their EVs are streets ahead, doubly so for the price.
    - protocolture 10mo ago
      I dont drive one of their EV's, but the 20+ year veteran Diesel Engineer who took my DPF filter complaint escalation does and thats really all I need to know. After I run my current vehicle into the ground, that will probably be next.
      - fy20 10mo ago
        Similar story here. I know a guy who does chip tuning as his career. He bought a Tesla last year, and he's more than happy with it.
    - IrishTechie 10mo ago
      Other than price, in what ways are they streets ahead? I’m a bit of an EV nerd and that would not be my assessment at all. Unfortunately for Western manufacturers price/volume is probably the most important thing right now, so they are still in serious trouble.
- csomar 10mo ago
  China's 2025 numbers are out: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_motor_vehicle_production https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_motor_veh... They're up roughly 10% over last year and will likely hit 35% of global production. The big shift over the last decade (beyond their growing market share) is that their overall quality has caught up to (and in many cases surpassed) the traditional incumbents. Barring a global war, I think they're unstoppable at this point.
  - riffraff 10mo ago
    I remember when Japan was supposed to take over the world in the '80s, to the point that "back to the future 2" had Americans speaking Japanese to their managers. Toyota did become the dominant producer, but American and European car makers (and now Koreans and Chinese) are still around. I wouldn't bet on total domination from China anytime soon.
    - vasco 10mo ago
      And funny thing, all three countries car industries were started by the USA.
    - csomar 10mo ago
      Well, China is not accepting/going through a Plaza Accord kind of an agreement. So history might not replay itself this time.
    - mytailorisrich 10mo ago
      Yes I remember, too. The crucial difference is that Japan's population is one third of the US while China's is 4 times the US (and 3x the EU). Basically Japan never had the numbers to "take over the world" while China has them even if natality is way down. If China had the same clout relative to population as Japan, Germany, Korea, or the US it would dwarf everyone else, and that's why the US are in a panic about China.
- psychoslave 10mo ago
  What's in the mind of European political oligarchy really?
  - epolanski 10mo ago
    What do you mean?
- deleted 10mo ago
  [deleted]
- chakintosh 10mo ago
  > but of the (very potential) rise of China as the premier automotive super power. It's done. They're already the premier automotive superpower now. It might not seem like it in Europe and USA, but anywhere else in the world they are dominating. I live in Morocco and I am not exaggerating when I say that every week I see a new Chinese brand on the road. Not just cars of the same brand, completely new brands. Dacia and a lot of PSA cars are built in Morocco, so naturally they always had a strong positioning here, but now I'm seeing more BYDs than DACIA's most popular car, the Duster. It's anecdotal but it's quite telling considering the foothold French brands have always had here. Here's a chart showing the sheer dominance of Chinese brands on the EV market in Morocco. 6 out of 10 models are Chinese. https://www.wandaloo.com/files/2026/01/aivam-bilan-marche-automobile-marocain-neuf-2025-top-10-modeles-vp.jpg https://www.wandaloo.com/files/2026/01/aivam-bilan-marche-au...
  - fennecfoxy 10mo ago
    >every week I see a new Chinese brand on the road And I think the difference is going to be apparent 15-20 years from now when new parts are needed for these models. With the big boys like Ford, Toyota etc I can trust that they manufactured (and still manufacture) parts with warehouses full of them and I can always find the part I need to repair a vehicle. I very much doubt that we will see the same thing with Chinese auto companies, even premier ones like BYD.
    - pjc50 10mo ago
      > And I think the difference is going to be apparent 15-20 years from now when new parts are needed for these models. Perhaps unstated, but this is going to be like trying to find parts for my Nokia 3210 (current age: 27). EVs are still in the "rapid improvement" phase, and by the time the battery warranty expires (5-7 years) the cars available on the current market will be significantly better in all respects. On the other hand, they just have far fewer "parts" in the first place. Early indication is very good for lifetimes of the non-battery parts. I expect the median EV of today to have a shorter life than a corresponding ICE, but the EV of 10 years time to have a much longer one. Which is going to make all the stupid issues around infotainment and subscription issues more acute. The average age of all cars on UK roads has just hit 10 years: https://www.racfoundation.org/media-centre/average-car-in-the-uk-is-oldest-it-has-ever-been https://www.racfoundation.org/media-centre/average-car-in-th... ; EVs skew young because they're new.
- cbeach 10mo ago
  > the (very potential) rise of China as the premier automotive super power. This is dangerous, geo-politically, should China ever go to war with the West in any capacity. In WW2, America's car factories gave it a decisive advantage, as part of the war machine. Ford’s Willow Run plant produced one B-24 bomber every ~63 minutes at peak output. General Motors built tanks, aircraft engines, trucks. Chrysler: tanks and artillery. The West de-industrialised, as a result of our globalist policy (thanks to the WTO, WEF and other supranational organisations). We have decimated our own military industrial production capability. Meanwhile China has taken exactly the opposite approach.
  - pjc50 10mo ago
    https://www.ft.com/content/6474a1a9-4a88-4f76-9685-f8ccb080d5d9 https://www.ft.com/content/6474a1a9-4a88-4f76-9685-f8ccb080d... : "Renault to team up with French defence group to make drones for Ukraine" I don't think the deindustrialization narrative is quite as bad as the doomers would have it, although it's notable that both sides in the Ukraine war depend on Chinese drone electronics. (we've also forgotten the nuclear war narrative of the 80s: it's irrelevant if you can build a bomber in 63 minutes if it only takes the ballistic missiles 43 minutes from launch to arrival, at which point the war or at least industrial society is over)
- screye 10mo ago
  It's been a bizarre watch. The automotive industry (and nations that rely on it) has sabotaged itself for a good decade. Unsurprisingly, China has caught up. Classic case of 'we've tried nothing and we're all out of ideas'. Unions sabotaged automation efforts and limited hours worked. Quarterly financial pressures kept research investments to a minimum. Nations refused to scale up nuclear, and cost of electricity kept rising. The one well-run EV company (Tesla) decided to destroy its brand value overnight. Toyota went on a pig-headed hydrogen tangent and Honda still hasn't tried to make an EV. Korea has done surprisingly well. But, they're the exception that proves the rule. China's rise as a manufacturing superpower was inevitable. But its rise as an automotive superpower involved major capitulation by the primary competition.
  - malfist 10mo ago
    Please share how unions sabotaged automation efforts. As far as I can tell, unions are losing every fight these days.
    - jonkoops 10mo ago
      Unions in countries like Germany and France are much more powerful. Especially VW is extremely unionized, half of the seats on the Supervisory Board are allocated to worker representatives. These employee representatives are elected or selected by the workers (usually via union and works council processes), so VW employees indirectly influence board decisions through these seats.
      - malfist 10mo ago
        That doesn't explain how unions have sabotaged automation
  - abdullahkhalids 10mo ago
    > Unions sabotaged automation efforts and limited hours worked. It's completely rational for unions, and the workers, to prevent automation. The short term results of automation are only negative for workers, and positive for every other part of the market (customers, suppliers, capitalists). The results might be positive in the long run, but why should only one group suffer. Perhaps, the capital-owning class could make the deal positive for the workers by giving the workers ownership of a substantial portion of the firm. Then whats good for the firm would become good for workers, and the union would not oppose automation so much.
- catigula 10mo ago
  China spent a lot of money for this position in the market.
reader9274 10mo ago
https://youtu.be/ghY78-yWr7o https://youtu.be/ghY78-yWr7o
nxm 10mo ago
The key part is electrified and not pure electric.
- cbdevidal 10mo ago
  I came here to say this. Also includes hybrids.
- tbrownaw 10mo ago
  "electrified" is full-electric plus plug-in hybrid. Does this mean that a non-plug-in hybrid would be in the "pure combustion-engined" bucket, or that they don't make those?
  - kulahan 10mo ago
    I believe the only non-plug in hybrid they make is the 911 with the T-Hybrid system in it. It uses motors to assist performance, but is not a plug-in. It’s probably just an incredibly small number of sales?
- King-Aaron 10mo ago
  On this note: It was recently reported that Electrified vehicles in general outsold conventional ICE powered vehicles in Australia, claiming it has reached a 'tipping point' with consumers: https://www.drive.com.au/news/electrified-vehicles-have-officially-outsold-petrol-cars-in-australia/ https://www.drive.com.au/news/electrified-vehicles-have-offi...
  - selcuka 10mo ago
    I wonder if fake hybrids [1] were counted as well. [1] https://www.carscoops.com/2025/10/toyota-accuses-rivals-of-selling-fake-hybrids-to-mislead-drivers/ https://www.carscoops.com/2025/10/toyota-accuses-rivals-of-s...
  - hnburnsy 10mo ago
    Consumers don't realize they are getting the worst of both worlds with added weight, complexity, repairs, inefficiency, and costs along with potential reliability (ex-Toyota) Not to mention studies that show PHEV owners frequently don't plug in.
sklargh 10mo ago
I think Porsche is really in trouble here. I’m not anti-EV but the electric Macan and Cayenne look awful. They are under equipped technologically relative to their Chinese peers (heck basically anything). Porsche sort of sold its soul for this tech-forward design but it doesn’t deliver any meaningful benefits, these cars don’t even have level 2+ highway cruise control. In the meantime I get a bunch of crap screens and lose all the glorious physical buttons and I don’t even have a fun engine rumble to make up for it? So, the cars are ugly and uncool (I grant a matter of taste), aren’t selling in their target market (China) won’t sell meaningfully in their backup market (US) and they’re behind GM, Tesla and BYD in all regards on quality of life stuff. Not a recipe for endurance.
- GlacierFox 10mo ago
  EV cars are mostly just appliances now. Not sure how the prestigious Porsche badge (or any other really) can stand out into the future.
  - linksnapzz 10mo ago
    Making things that...track better than an appliance.
  - blitzar 10mo ago
    Not sure if you have been into an appliance shop lately, but for any given appliance there are options in every price bracket.
  - NetMageSCW 10mo ago
    According to (enthusiast) car magazines, Porsche BEVs are still better at being Porsches than most of the competition.
    - dzhiurgis 10mo ago
      In Doug Demuro's list 4 out of top 6 are EVs. Porsche appears at #17. Incidentally it's an EV.
- 10mo ago
dzonga 10mo ago
a lot of these luxury brands have been eating off china the past few years but now they've lost their luster since china makes cars better than most luxury brands and china has a moat in EVs so what's left is either the US or emerging markets
- rr808 10mo ago
  > china makes cars better than most luxury brands More like China makes cheaper cars which is enough for most people.
  - mullingitover 10mo ago
    Believe it or not, people aren't buying Audis in China because they're thrifty. China was a huge market for Audi in the past as luxury status symbol. However, now Chinese buyers are so enamored with new tech-heavy Chinese luxury cars that Audi had to go make a whole sub-brand specific to the Chinese market just to stay in the game[1]. [1] https://www.audi-mediacenter.com/en/press-releases/double-debut-in-shanghai-audi-and-the-audi-e-concept-16359 https://www.audi-mediacenter.com/en/press-releases/double-de...
  - temp8830 10mo ago
    Google "Zeekr 9X" and then come back here if you still feel this way.
    - rr808 10mo ago
      That is ugly AF and there is no way I'd buy that over a Porsche. Zeekr 001 is prettier outside but inside still is terrible. https://www.datocms-assets.com/143770/1728613060-rectangle-46228986.jpg?auto=format https://www.datocms-assets.com/143770/1728613060-rectangle-4...
      - kulahan 10mo ago
        Calling it ugly is weird. It’s a copy-paste of a rolls Royce phantom, slapped on an SUV frame, with the cheapest possible interior they could design. There are much better ways to insult this garbage product. :)
_ea1k 10mo ago
Is this shocking? Obviously including PHEVs helps a bit, but even outside of this it is exactly what should be happening. Their biggest sellers are SUVs, and at these price points, the EVs can be substantially than their ICE counterparts. For 2026, they probably won't even need the PHEVs to get there, since the Cayenne EV is the best EV that they've built so far.
- bz_bz_bz 10mo ago
  Given that they walked back many of their BEV goals in mid-to-late 2025, some may find this surprising. The K1 was supposed to be all electric vehicle when it was announced, and they are now going to release it as a gas & PHEV first instead.
ggm 10mo ago
I think a lot of people are missing a point here. Cars are not (just) use-values. They are expression of desire. They are, for some brands, classic Veblen Goods. Porche possibly could sell more by putting the price up They put their marque behind EV and Hybrid. It worked. Their brand sold well. This is in contradistinction to vendors who won't think about this market niche in positives, but are being dragged into it.
- kulahan 10mo ago
  This is pretty much exactly what they’re doing. They even admit in TFA that their dedication to the customer experience is part of the reason for declining sales - spending time on quality action rather than immediately profitable ones.
- 9JollyOtter 10mo ago
  This is true for quite a number of brands of vehicles. Also I don't understand what a modern Porsche is. Porsche to me was always a Rear Engined, (normally) RWD sports car i.e. the 911. I am personally on the look for a 944 (believe it or not they are cheaper than JDM cars of a similar vintage). When I see a Porsche SUV, to me that isn't a Porsche. It looks like any other SUV on the road with Porsche badge on it. It akin to someone putting a Apple Sticker over Dell Logo on their laptop. The same happens when you see a Bentley or Rolls Royce SUV. > They put their marque behind EV and Hybrid. It worked. Their brand sold well. They are losing money. Sales are down and they are planning to move back to ICE and are postponing or cancelling EV projects. https://finance.yahoo.com/news/porsche-loses-1-1-billion-220000386.html https://finance.yahoo.com/news/porsche-loses-1-1-billion-220...
  - mullingitover 10mo ago
    That article throws out the wild claim “The news comes at a time when EV demand is on the decline across the car world.” EV sales increased around 20% last year.
    - aweiland 10mo ago
jadenpeterson 10mo ago
[flagged]
- peterldowns 10mo ago
  Excellent bait, really top notch stuff — no notes.
- skhameneh 10mo ago
  This does read/interpret a bit odd, because the Hummer H2 doesn’t strike me as a reliable vehicle and I’ve generally heard of them to be cost sinks (completely disregarding the horrible efficiency). Why not start off looking at the cheapest EV or PHEV that you can find without high mileage that’ll fit your daily driving habits, then give it a test drive? Consider how much monthly expenses will cost (might save ~90% on fuel) and then consider if you like the driving characteristics more.
  - jadenpeterson 10mo ago
    Yeah it's not the... best. I bought it kind of on a lark, and the sunk cost made me reluctant to let go it. Any brand recommendations? I'm really not one for 'smart' features, though I know they're kind of intrinsic to electric vehicles.
    - skhameneh 10mo ago
      For cheap, the 2018 and later Nissan Leafs (old tech) or an Ariya (new tech, nothing notably exciting. Maybe also check out Ioniq 5, EV6, Equinox, etc. FWIW, my wife drives a Mach-E and I drive a Fisker Ocean. The Mach-E is very comfortable but tends to be a bit higher in price than some other options. The Fisker Ocean is.. (from what you’ve said) probably not for you.
      - skhameneh 10mo ago
        Also, a less efficient option with less “tech” would be a Silverado WT (work truck), those have a lot of range and sometimes you can find them for good used prices. Those are a hit or miss for deals because the MSRP is on the higher end.
anonymousiam 10mo ago
Not a very good year for them though: https://longyield.substack.com/p/porsche-in-crisis-when-an-iconic https://longyield.substack.com/p/porsche-in-crisis-when-an-i...
lofaszvanitt 10mo ago
And they all look the same and ugly as hell.
KnuthIsGod 10mo ago
Global sales of Porsche, Audi, Mercedes and BMW brand ( BMW Group sales increased marginally, but includes) have all declined. The end is in sight for German cars as Chinese made electric cars take over. I have had several German cars. Never again ! Sticking to Japanese and probably Chinese cars in the future. German cars were decent once. Now they are notorious for poor long term reliability.
- rr808 10mo ago
  Japanese and Chinese are very different buckets. What is the long term reliability of Chinese cars? Nobody knows.
  - thaumasiotes 10mo ago
    I wouldn't be too concerned. Hyundai used to be synonymous with "garbage".
    - dietr1ch 10mo ago
      Yeah maybe I'll get a Chinese car in 50yrs
    - linksnapzz 10mo ago
      People who have purchased Hyundai/Kia products w/ the GDI Theta II engine would, perhaps, take issue with "used to be".
      - Braxton1980 10mo ago
        One engine issue due to a manufacturing flaw shouldn't be enough to counter their massive change in produt lines over the years
        olyjohn 10mo ago
        Maybe just anecdotal evidence, but i'm noticing a lot of Kias with no brake lights. I'm suspecting bad body control modules are going to become more of a thing as these cars age. I noticed when GMT800 trucks were blowing DRLs constantly and lo and behold there's a TSB for that. So I don't think I'm imagining things.
moomoo11 10mo ago
I used to really be into cars up to a few years ago. These days, I think it is just far better to do without a car. I like being very local, and if I really need to go somewhere outside my city (SF) I'll just not lol. I'll take a flight to visit my parents or my closest friends. Everyone else, we can just meet online. I have no friends in SF, so I'm just sorta dissolved into the neighborhood. When I did have a car, I'd go on long drives but looking back that was just a waste of time. Maybe I'll drive again when I've "made it" but until then, gimme some Brooks lol.
twodave 10mo ago
I’ll be honest, kind of tired of every automotive-related thread turning into blowing smoke up China’s ass. It’s become almost as predictable as what goes on in Windows-related threads.
- linksnapzz 10mo ago
  Well, it's nice to know that people are enthusiastic about manufacturing happening someplace; I just wish more of it would happen in the US.
  - twodave 10mo ago
    IMO it’s just to the point where it becomes off-topic. This article isn’t about the US vs China.
itsthecourier 10mo ago
I was reading about Porsche this week on reddit. lots of complaints about Taycans. always have been a fan of Porsche. hope they find the way forward
joeel84 10mo ago
I just buy japanese cars/vehicles these days. With that being said a lot of them are manufactured stateside - especially larger vehicles. I had a Mitsu I was very happy with. I've also purchased Hyundai made in Korea and it is wonderful but not much better that what was built in Iowa.
- jcims 10mo ago
  I grew up by the assembly plants in Ohio and worked there on various temp jobs in the late 80s/early 90s. There was (maybe still is) a lot of local pride in the product that comes out of those plants, the amount of energy that was put into quality control was boggling to my young mind. This included the motorcycle plant, where I had a few jobs correcting supplier parts that were just a smidge out of spec before bolting them on to the ATVs they were cranking out at the time. Made me realize quality is a process that requires investment and commitment, and not some magic quality imbued upon the product by the locale in which it's made.
- toephu2 10mo ago
  Buying an ICE vehicle in 2026 is like...buying a video cassette player when DVD players were already coming out?
  - toenail 10mo ago
    No, there are many good, valid reasons to own an ICE vehicle.
  - jp0d 10mo ago
    Well, they make perfect sense to buy down here in here Australia. When I replace my current seven year old ICE car, it'll either be a diesel or a petrol electric hybrid. In either case it'll be a Japanese one.
  - NetMageSCW 10mo ago
    Buying a BEV in 2026 is like buying a Beta VCR when VHS is just coming out?
maxdo 10mo ago
German cars have lost their technological edge. They can't even build their own infotainment systems anymore. They're paying billions to China to do it for them. I can't overstate how catastrophically stupid this is. Paying what they consider smaller competitors real cash to build core software, instead of developing that capability in-house or acquiring a few startups with decent engineering talent. This isn't just a bad decision. It reveals a completely dysfunctional decision-making process and a total absence of technical ambition. People who say but "Porche/Mercedes/etc.." has this design. Luxury segment is not coming from nowhere. This is the same reason british luxury cars are gone essentially. It will take some time, but EU built cars will be in a constant decline. What's even more fun, they don't want to protect their own market the same way chinese did.
- dmix 10mo ago
  > instead of developing that capability in-house or acquiring a few startups with decent engineering talent. It's usually the former and their infotainment stuff is usually nothing to get excited about. When they buy startups they get bogged down and burn off the talent quickly. Maybe the solution is not having the same small set of car companies trying to pull off the survival balancing act as we did a century ago, maybe that's why China is progressing quicker.
  - maxdo 10mo ago
    Their biggest brand, BYD, is also relatively the "oldest." It's the governemt priorities, local gov in China is building EV companies, AI companies. EU governemnt, US local gov is building shelters, or people who kick out people from a shelter on a voters mood swing. A friend from the EU visited recently. He said, "At least the Netherlands is doing much better than 10 years ago...we have lights, roads." That one sentence captures the entire mindset gap. The bitter irony: Philips literally built ASML and TSMC, then sold both. Now those companies dominate global semiconductor supply chains while Philips sells... healthcare equipment at a loss. And ASML is about to lose it's dominance too. But yeah...lights on the streets. Built with Chinese LEDs. Powered by Chinese solar panels. Bought using budget deficits. In debt. And the deficit keeps growing. Some EU countries faster, some slower. But the trend is unmistakable.
jojobas 10mo ago
People with luxury beliefs can afford luxury items, news at 5.
deleted 10mo ago
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compounding_it 10mo ago
We are in the transition phase from ICE to an Electric motor. It's too early to call who can nail it. Currently the Chinese cars are cheap and have long range. But in India Tatas and Mahindra makes cheap EVs that may not be as reliable but people are still buying them a lot. In US gas is still cheap compared to income, so hybrids like Camry are always going to be preferred over a low end EV like the model 3. It all depends on service network and value for money. And now charging network and range. People who find a way to give you value for money will probably nail it.
Palomides 10mo ago
probably worth mentioning they discontinued the ICE Macan (and 718 Cayman/Boxster) in Europe? also they put a dinky 2KWh battery in some 911s
speed_spread 10mo ago
They can try selling me an electric sports car the day they get the weight back under ~1500kg. Electric cars are fast in straight line, but that extra inertia is a killer in curves. I want a long range go-kart.
- NetMageSCW 10mo ago
  Their ICE sports cars barely make that in a lot of cases. I think you will need a long wait and a different manufacturer to get a very light weight BEV sports car.
  - speed_spread 10mo ago
    Early 986 Boxsters weighted ~1300kg. Newer 718 models are a tad heavier, reaching 1400kg. The ICE Macan was 1900kg and newer electric ones are 2300kg and that's for their medium sized SUV! This craziness has to stop.
jeanzy 10mo ago
Porsche sold more electrified cars than gas cars in Europe in 2025. Pretty interesting to see the shift happening so quickly.
- datahack 10mo ago
  It’s not rocket science. Porsche discontinued the gas Macan in the EU, leaving the new all electric Macan as the primary option. That’s the top seller. So… you end up with more electric than gas — because you don’t sell it.
apparent 10mo ago
Aren't many of these non-pure-gas-powered vehicles still very gas-heavy, but just have an electric system for extra oomph?
- deleted 10mo ago
  [deleted]
toephu2 10mo ago
Can't wait until Chinese EVs come to America
- Animats 10mo ago
  They'll be in Canada soon, and some will make it across the border.
mdavid626 10mo ago
Just to be sure: electrified means hybrid and EV-s.
rswail 10mo ago
The US/EU/JP manufacturers are half-pregnant, they have engine and other mechanical production plants that will become stranded assets as BEVs don't need engines, gearboxes or the other hydraulic/cooling etc infrastructure that an ICE vehicle needs. Electric motors are essentially maintenance free over the life of a BEV, same for the batteries. The maintenance is for brake pads/rotors, but regen braking also avoids that. There is the passenger heat pumps for heat/cooling, and the lighting, but LED lighting also requires minimal maintenance. That cuts out a large chunk of the automotive industry in general. US/EU/JP manufacturers are having to handle a major market disruption, independent of whether or not CN is leaping over them.
- hdgvhicv 10mo ago
  My last MOT in a petrol engine required suspension, tyres and lights. Electric wouldn’t change any of that
  - rswail 10mo ago
    Lights with LEDs are likely to not need maintenance. Suspension and tyres might actually need more frequent maintenance because of the extra weight of an EV. But how often does suspension require actual maintenance?
    - TheJoeMan 10mo ago
      When your LED brake light goes out, you have to purchase an entire assembly as the LED's are part of the PCB. There are no "bulbs" for a few dollars. And with the matrix LED's a few may go out, now your brake light "sort of" works, so it's even harder to justify replacing.
    - hdgvhicv 10mo ago
      Petrol cars have led lights now too. It’s an alignment problem, trivial fix. The suspension is a rust issue, I believe EVs are still made of metal. Given in the last 3 years I’ve only spent money on tyres, replacement wing mirror, and now suspension on this car, and you assert an EV needs more spending on tyres and suspension, it seems that an equivalent EV would be higher maintenence costs. I’m sure things are different at the high end of the market where you’re spending £10k on a nearly new car, but at my end where it’s under £2k it doesn’t make sense.
black_13 10mo ago
[dead]
whatever1 10mo ago
Porsche was on the brink of bankruptcy. Then they started making SUVs. It turned out the SUVs are the ones that are bringing in all the cash to the company. The audience of Porsche SUVs (cayenne, macan) care about signaling wealth via the badge. But they mostly want an everyday car for their commute, groceries / kid pickup. No wonder the EVs options sell better. They have the badge, and are better at everyday tasks. The 911 will stay gas powered (maybe e fuel at some point if mining of oil stops), because the target audience cares equally for signaling as well as the driving experience.
- Gravityloss 10mo ago
  Hmm this comment gives the impression that electric Porsches are bad to drive and are only bought for the badge and convenience, like the SUV:s. I haven't driven a Taycan so can't say but I would assume it's not so. (And also it doesn't look like a convenient car.)
  - AdamN 10mo ago
    Also Porsche SUVs regularly rank at the top of luxury SUV reviews. I've never driven one but the consensus is that they're great - it's not just badge engineering.
    - lan321 10mo ago
      The Cayenne has no right to be as fast as it is. The stupid thing will powerslide out of corners at 120 kmh and fly at hot hatch speeds through twisty cobblestone roads. The brakes were also wonderful and surprisingly cheap for the size. Didn't have air suspension so it rode like a fast car though.
  - muvlon 10mo ago
    Car enthusiasts caring about the driving experience doesn't just mean drivability. Engine sound is a huge part of it. All the classic Porsche 911 have flat-6 engines which make a distinctive sound that is totally part of the brand. FTR I don't care about this myself, I'm happy with my EV. But the importance of this aspect is easily missed by people not part of the target demographic.
jagermo 10mo ago
you know the sad thing? Porsche didn't even try. They could have copied Teslas playbook and create a cool, fun, overpowered electric 911 or Targa or pull an old, fun concept and make it electric. Instead, they have a boring SVU and the panamera, one of the probably ugliest car they have. No one buys a Porsche because they want a sensible car for their family or they need something with large storage. They want midlife-crisis cars that go fast and look sleak. They are now giving up on their entire electric strategy. I don't get it. They could have ridden the wave of electric fun vehicles, instead they are giving in. Either because they can't do it or because they had no real interest to begin with.
- hnben 10mo ago
  > No one buys a Porsche because they want a sensible car for their family or they need something with large storage I know two porsche-owners personally. One sometimes uses his porsche (non SUV, but the small fast one) to go on family vacations (with the kids cramped at the too small back seats, which seems funny to me). The other has an SUV and lives in the country with bad roads; They sometimes use their porsche to commute to work and for everyday-stuff like shopping.
  - jagermo 10mo ago
    > The other has an SUV and lives in the country with bad roads; They sometimes use their porsche to commute to work and for everyday-stuff like shopping. That blows my mind. I guess its the same mindset as people who buy a mercedes "jeep" (don't know the product id) or range rover and live the middle of the city.
    - PokemonNoGo 10mo ago
      Sorry I'm lost (getting late over here). Wouldn't a Porsche SUV fit perfectly out in the country on bad roads? The Cayenne is made for it?
lql1 10mo ago
In some european countries (atleast in finland), you pay less taxes for "electrified" cars than pure gas powered, so most people who buy porsche (atleast in finland) does not ever charge the car via charger, and never drive with "hybrid mode". Hybrid porsches are called "tax evasion hybrids" atleast in finland
- petercooper 10mo ago
  This is true to some extent in the UK as well. We have a curious company car tax regime where CO2 emissions are used to define the tax rates so hybrids are somewhat lower, although it's still onerous compared to just buying a car personally. However, pure EVs are taxed at very low rates in comparison, so if you own a company or have the ability to do a "salary sacrifice" for a car with your employer, it becomes very tax advantageous to get an EV. Your company can also pay for your insurance, EV charge installation, public charging costs (even for private mileage) and so forth, so it's very common to see small business owners in EVs compared to private buyers. Porsches also tend to have particularly low monthly payments compared to their value since I guess they hold their value well and can be traded back in at the end of the financing period. I don't have one, though, as a Porsche is just crying out to be keyed or mocked where I live compared to a more modest car.
- mwelpa 10mo ago
  same in Poland - 9,3% tax for electrified cars, and 18,6% for gasoline ones.
thinkingemote 10mo ago
Electric cars are required by law to emit sound via a speaker for safety. Usually the sound is unique and somewhat electronic in nature. Some electric sports cars, and I'm not sure but Porsche may be one of them, have a loud deep bassy faux-sports engine sound emitting from the speaker. "VROOOOM VROOOOOM VROOOM!" - on an electric car. Does anyone else find this *extremely* weird? It's like a petrol car having a speaker playing the coconuts (as it's replaced the horse).
- lukan 10mo ago
  More weird is, that the electric harley davidson is by intention more loud than the gas powered ones. But the law requires a artificial sound only for low speeds. Electric cars are indeed silent and it can be dangerous not expecting one approaching, when one is used to loud explosion engines. But I would prefer to just have no noise and people adopting.
- thomas_witt 10mo ago
  Totally agreed. It is beyond understanding why you would even pay extra to get these sounds. The heavenly silence is one of the great advantages of an EV in my opinion.
- 11mariom 10mo ago
  > Electric cars are required by law to emit sound via a speaker for safety. Usually the sound is unique and somewhat electronic in nature. And this is absolutely… bad. I mean requiring is good, but almost all of the execution of it is awfully bad. It can be personal - but Hz of that sounds just makes me boil inside. That's how badly I'm receiving it. Almost no other sounds I hear on daily basis makes me uncomfortable. And another issue - when somebody is parking the sound goes on, off, on, off, and that all the time until person is happy how car is parked. Couldn't it just make that sound all the time? Would be easier to get used to it. Same way it works with PC fans - there is no benefit to keep it as lowest as possible at all times, the trick is to keep it spinning fast enough to avoid as many changes of speed as possible - keeping the noise constant and easier to live with.
- anentropic 10mo ago
graemep 10mo ago
two things that stood out for me: 1. A lot of hybrids 2. "Reasons for the decrease in both regions include supply gaps for the combustion-engined 718 and Macan models due to EU cybersecurity regulations." What is the second about?
- NetMageSCW 10mo ago
  New regulations in the EU require increased security features in connected cars and secure updates that couldn’t be implemented in the older digital systems of the 718/Macan without redesigning all new systems, and since Porsche was planning on electrifying those models first, they moved that ahead rather than create new ICE models. In retrospect that was too early a move to BEV for them.
KellyCriterion 10mo ago
putting the rating together that way is some type of "automotive market Garry Mandering", Id say?
jgalt212 10mo ago
I'm hoping Porsche's profit woes will lead them to making 911 supply less restrictive--especially in the US. New 911s in US trade above sticker price and have long (not Ferrari long), but long waiting lists.

473 points by m463 10mo ago

They sold both of them?! /s

While the headline is interesting. I think the table at the end of the article is more so. - Worldwide sales -10% YoY - China sales -26% YoY And when you cross compare Porsche saying they sold more EV powertrains than their gas equivalents against China's new found foothold as the market leader in consumer electric cars (BYD, NIO, Xiaomi, etc...) Then I think you see an early indication not just of electric car dominance, but of the (very potential) rise of China as the premier automotive super power.

mrits 10mo ago
I don’t think anyone is going to keep an advantage in car manufacturing. The way we build them might totally change in a short duration with the rapid advancement in robotics
- kulahan 10mo ago
  Most advancements in robotics have been for highly generalized robots. We’ve been using robotics to build cars for like 50+ years. They’re extremely good.
  - mrits 9mo ago
    Most practical advancements in robotics have been in and will be in highly specialized systems. Generalized robots are still mostly experimental.
andyst 10mo ago
in the australian market theres often comparison between how BYD/(chinese brands) may unseat Tesla (as the scale EV first mover), but I haven't seen what I think is the prize, which is BYD want to take on Toyota as the de facto king of global car making. They want the whole car market, not just EV and are already setup to take that on.
- coryrc 10mo ago
  Especially as Toyota seems structurally unable to create a good EV. They produced one completely bare-bones model 30 years ago and never expanded past that. At least they're keeping some knowledge of the parts by having PHEVs, but I don't think they're on the leading edge of anything. Maybe they don't need to be and can buy everything from other suppliers, but they're going to be doing a whole lot less than they currently do and not sure they'll keep their profit margin.
  - fy20 10mo ago
    Toyota hybrids are full hybrids however, not mild hybrids like other manufactures, so all you really need is a bigger battery and charger. My 10 year old RAV4 Hybrid (not plug-in) can deliver 160kW just from the electric motors, without the engine. That's 3x a Dacia Spring. They have the technology for motors and control electronics, and they know it works long term without issues. Most of the European EVs are basically just electric city cars, unable to drive long ranges due to small batteries and limited fast charging. And most of them after 100,000km will need a new battery. Doesn't really fit in with Toyota's 'long term reliability' stance. I can't blame Toyota for waiting for the technology to mature before they go all in on EVs. Plus they do have the bz4x / RX which are full EVs you can buy today.
    - formerly_proven 10mo ago
      > Most of the European EVs are basically just electric city cars, unable to drive long ranges due to small batteries and limited fast charging. And most of them after 100,000km will need a new battery. Doesn't really fit in with Toyota's 'long term reliability' stance. Australian cities must be enormous for this statement to make any semblance of sense.
appplication 10mo ago
China may become the superpower on volume but I would be surprised if the upper quartile (by price) of western buyers were interested in Chinese vehicles. Too much quality issues across the board on Chinese made products, unless you have a trusted non-Chinese company with stringent quality control (e.g. Apple model). I’m sure they can handily win the lower end of the market though. And yes I’m aware many western manufacturers are shit tier quality.
- sdwr 10mo ago
  Selling the most cars will eventually translate into making the best cars, with the compounding experience and network effects.
  - willturman 10mo ago
    You'd think so, but also, Tesla.
    - kulahan 10mo ago
      They don’t sell anywhere near the most cars, and their market share is shrinking. They also are a very VERY young manufacturer. This isn’t the right example to use imo. Maybe Jeep? Very popular, dogwater quality. They take nearly half of the Consumer Reports “top 10 worst cars on the road” almost every year.
  - appplication 10mo ago
    > Selling the most x will eventually translate into making the best x It’s a theory for sure, but I don’t think that’s a common strategy for modern capitalism.
    - andyferris 10mo ago
      What about for socialism with Chinese charateristics?
      - 10mo ago
itsthecourier 10mo ago
great analysis
melenaboija 10mo ago
> Then I think you see an early indication not just of electric car dominance, but of the (very potential) rise of China as the premier automotive super power. It’s done man. Americans are stuck in ICE engines because they’ve been told they’re “car enthusiasts” while the Chinese have been developing EV technology for years. Meanwhile, European makers are stuck not knowing what to do, make Americans happy or compete with the Chinese. The result: nothing has been done properly. And let’s be real, “car enthusiasts” are going to disappear in one or two generations. Practicality beats enthusiasm for 95% of car use.
- CalRobert 10mo ago
  Perhaps people in the future will visit the US for the dieselpunk nostalgia, the same way people like seeing classic cars in Cuba.
  - psychoslave 10mo ago
    I strongly doubt any current car will stand longevity of those cars. The maintenance entry cost of anything with integrated electronic is just several order of magnitude in complexity.
    - funkyfiddler69 10mo ago
      What? How so? Isn't it just a bunch of PCBs and sensors whereas gas powered cars are a bunch of awesome nonesense you can gently whack against each other to create different notes and tones? The former requires a special printer while the latter requires tons of machines for precision engineering and the industrial equivalent of smitheries and blacksmiths!
      - CalRobert 10mo ago
        Well there’s the drm
      - lostlogin 10mo ago
        Ever tried working on a new car versus fixing a pre 1980’s car? Damned if I have any idea what anything is or what to do on a new one. I had a moderate chance of diagnosing and fixing my old Triunph.
protocolture 10mo ago
>Then I think you see an early indication not just of electric car dominance, but of the (very potential) rise of China as the premier automotive super power. I thought we were there already tbh. Chinese cars have gone from laughably bad to quality parity in less than a decade. Like even 2 years ago, I was still hearing "the paint the paint" as the last remaining issue. But I dont hear that anymore.
- irjustin 10mo ago
  In terms of quality they are there, now it's expansion. I, for one, am quite excited for all this competition. I don't care who makes my level 4/5 self driver, I just want it now.
- msy 10mo ago
  Parity? Their EVs are streets ahead, doubly so for the price.
  - protocolture 10mo ago
    I dont drive one of their EV's, but the 20+ year veteran Diesel Engineer who took my DPF filter complaint escalation does and thats really all I need to know. After I run my current vehicle into the ground, that will probably be next.
    - fy20 10mo ago
      Similar story here. I know a guy who does chip tuning as his career. He bought a Tesla last year, and he's more than happy with it.
  - IrishTechie 10mo ago
    Other than price, in what ways are they streets ahead? I’m a bit of an EV nerd and that would not be my assessment at all. Unfortunately for Western manufacturers price/volume is probably the most important thing right now, so they are still in serious trouble.
csomar 10mo ago
China's 2025 numbers are out: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_motor_vehicle_production https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_motor_veh... They're up roughly 10% over last year and will likely hit 35% of global production. The big shift over the last decade (beyond their growing market share) is that their overall quality has caught up to (and in many cases surpassed) the traditional incumbents. Barring a global war, I think they're unstoppable at this point.
- riffraff 10mo ago
  I remember when Japan was supposed to take over the world in the '80s, to the point that "back to the future 2" had Americans speaking Japanese to their managers. Toyota did become the dominant producer, but American and European car makers (and now Koreans and Chinese) are still around. I wouldn't bet on total domination from China anytime soon.
  - vasco 10mo ago
    And funny thing, all three countries car industries were started by the USA.
  - csomar 10mo ago
    Well, China is not accepting/going through a Plaza Accord kind of an agreement. So history might not replay itself this time.
  - mytailorisrich 10mo ago
    Yes I remember, too. The crucial difference is that Japan's population is one third of the US while China's is 4 times the US (and 3x the EU). Basically Japan never had the numbers to "take over the world" while China has them even if natality is way down. If China had the same clout relative to population as Japan, Germany, Korea, or the US it would dwarf everyone else, and that's why the US are in a panic about China.
psychoslave 10mo ago
What's in the mind of European political oligarchy really?
- epolanski 10mo ago
  What do you mean?
deleted 10mo ago
[deleted]
chakintosh 10mo ago
> but of the (very potential) rise of China as the premier automotive super power. It's done. They're already the premier automotive superpower now. It might not seem like it in Europe and USA, but anywhere else in the world they are dominating. I live in Morocco and I am not exaggerating when I say that every week I see a new Chinese brand on the road. Not just cars of the same brand, completely new brands. Dacia and a lot of PSA cars are built in Morocco, so naturally they always had a strong positioning here, but now I'm seeing more BYDs than DACIA's most popular car, the Duster. It's anecdotal but it's quite telling considering the foothold French brands have always had here. Here's a chart showing the sheer dominance of Chinese brands on the EV market in Morocco. 6 out of 10 models are Chinese. https://www.wandaloo.com/files/2026/01/aivam-bilan-marche-automobile-marocain-neuf-2025-top-10-modeles-vp.jpg https://www.wandaloo.com/files/2026/01/aivam-bilan-marche-au...
- fennecfoxy 10mo ago
  >every week I see a new Chinese brand on the road And I think the difference is going to be apparent 15-20 years from now when new parts are needed for these models. With the big boys like Ford, Toyota etc I can trust that they manufactured (and still manufacture) parts with warehouses full of them and I can always find the part I need to repair a vehicle. I very much doubt that we will see the same thing with Chinese auto companies, even premier ones like BYD.
  - pjc50 10mo ago
    > And I think the difference is going to be apparent 15-20 years from now when new parts are needed for these models. Perhaps unstated, but this is going to be like trying to find parts for my Nokia 3210 (current age: 27). EVs are still in the "rapid improvement" phase, and by the time the battery warranty expires (5-7 years) the cars available on the current market will be significantly better in all respects. On the other hand, they just have far fewer "parts" in the first place. Early indication is very good for lifetimes of the non-battery parts. I expect the median EV of today to have a shorter life than a corresponding ICE, but the EV of 10 years time to have a much longer one. Which is going to make all the stupid issues around infotainment and subscription issues more acute. The average age of all cars on UK roads has just hit 10 years: https://www.racfoundation.org/media-centre/average-car-in-the-uk-is-oldest-it-has-ever-been https://www.racfoundation.org/media-centre/average-car-in-th... ; EVs skew young because they're new.
cbeach 10mo ago
> the (very potential) rise of China as the premier automotive super power. This is dangerous, geo-politically, should China ever go to war with the West in any capacity. In WW2, America's car factories gave it a decisive advantage, as part of the war machine. Ford’s Willow Run plant produced one B-24 bomber every ~63 minutes at peak output. General Motors built tanks, aircraft engines, trucks. Chrysler: tanks and artillery. The West de-industrialised, as a result of our globalist policy (thanks to the WTO, WEF and other supranational organisations). We have decimated our own military industrial production capability. Meanwhile China has taken exactly the opposite approach.
- pjc50 10mo ago
  https://www.ft.com/content/6474a1a9-4a88-4f76-9685-f8ccb080d5d9 https://www.ft.com/content/6474a1a9-4a88-4f76-9685-f8ccb080d... : "Renault to team up with French defence group to make drones for Ukraine" I don't think the deindustrialization narrative is quite as bad as the doomers would have it, although it's notable that both sides in the Ukraine war depend on Chinese drone electronics. (we've also forgotten the nuclear war narrative of the 80s: it's irrelevant if you can build a bomber in 63 minutes if it only takes the ballistic missiles 43 minutes from launch to arrival, at which point the war or at least industrial society is over)
screye 10mo ago
It's been a bizarre watch. The automotive industry (and nations that rely on it) has sabotaged itself for a good decade. Unsurprisingly, China has caught up. Classic case of 'we've tried nothing and we're all out of ideas'. Unions sabotaged automation efforts and limited hours worked. Quarterly financial pressures kept research investments to a minimum. Nations refused to scale up nuclear, and cost of electricity kept rising. The one well-run EV company (Tesla) decided to destroy its brand value overnight. Toyota went on a pig-headed hydrogen tangent and Honda still hasn't tried to make an EV. Korea has done surprisingly well. But, they're the exception that proves the rule. China's rise as a manufacturing superpower was inevitable. But its rise as an automotive superpower involved major capitulation by the primary competition.
- malfist 10mo ago
  Please share how unions sabotaged automation efforts. As far as I can tell, unions are losing every fight these days.
  - jonkoops 10mo ago
    Unions in countries like Germany and France are much more powerful. Especially VW is extremely unionized, half of the seats on the Supervisory Board are allocated to worker representatives. These employee representatives are elected or selected by the workers (usually via union and works council processes), so VW employees indirectly influence board decisions through these seats.
    - malfist 10mo ago
      That doesn't explain how unions have sabotaged automation
- abdullahkhalids 10mo ago
  > Unions sabotaged automation efforts and limited hours worked. It's completely rational for unions, and the workers, to prevent automation. The short term results of automation are only negative for workers, and positive for every other part of the market (customers, suppliers, capitalists). The results might be positive in the long run, but why should only one group suffer. Perhaps, the capital-owning class could make the deal positive for the workers by giving the workers ownership of a substantial portion of the firm. Then whats good for the firm would become good for workers, and the union would not oppose automation so much.
catigula 10mo ago
China spent a lot of money for this position in the market.

reader9274 10mo ago

https://youtu.be/ghY78-yWr7o https://youtu.be/ghY78-yWr7o

nxm 10mo ago

The key part is electrified and not pure electric.

cbdevidal 10mo ago
I came here to say this. Also includes hybrids.
tbrownaw 10mo ago
"electrified" is full-electric plus plug-in hybrid. Does this mean that a non-plug-in hybrid would be in the "pure combustion-engined" bucket, or that they don't make those?
- kulahan 10mo ago
  I believe the only non-plug in hybrid they make is the 911 with the T-Hybrid system in it. It uses motors to assist performance, but is not a plug-in. It’s probably just an incredibly small number of sales?
King-Aaron 10mo ago
On this note: It was recently reported that Electrified vehicles in general outsold conventional ICE powered vehicles in Australia, claiming it has reached a 'tipping point' with consumers: https://www.drive.com.au/news/electrified-vehicles-have-officially-outsold-petrol-cars-in-australia/ https://www.drive.com.au/news/electrified-vehicles-have-offi...
- selcuka 10mo ago
  I wonder if fake hybrids [1] were counted as well. [1] https://www.carscoops.com/2025/10/toyota-accuses-rivals-of-selling-fake-hybrids-to-mislead-drivers/ https://www.carscoops.com/2025/10/toyota-accuses-rivals-of-s...
- hnburnsy 10mo ago
  Consumers don't realize they are getting the worst of both worlds with added weight, complexity, repairs, inefficiency, and costs along with potential reliability (ex-Toyota) Not to mention studies that show PHEV owners frequently don't plug in.

sklargh 10mo ago

I think Porsche is really in trouble here. I’m not anti-EV but the electric Macan and Cayenne look awful. They are under equipped technologically relative to their Chinese peers (heck basically anything). Porsche sort of sold its soul for this tech-forward design but it doesn’t deliver any meaningful benefits, these cars don’t even have level 2+ highway cruise control. In the meantime I get a bunch of crap screens and lose all the glorious physical buttons and I don’t even have a fun engine rumble to make up for it? So, the cars are ugly and uncool (I grant a matter of taste), aren’t selling in their target market (China) won’t sell meaningfully in their backup market (US) and they’re behind GM, Tesla and BYD in all regards on quality of life stuff. Not a recipe for endurance.

GlacierFox 10mo ago
EV cars are mostly just appliances now. Not sure how the prestigious Porsche badge (or any other really) can stand out into the future.
- linksnapzz 10mo ago
  Making things that...track better than an appliance.
- blitzar 10mo ago
  Not sure if you have been into an appliance shop lately, but for any given appliance there are options in every price bracket.
- NetMageSCW 10mo ago
  According to (enthusiast) car magazines, Porsche BEVs are still better at being Porsches than most of the competition.
  - dzhiurgis 10mo ago
    In Doug Demuro's list 4 out of top 6 are EVs. Porsche appears at #17. Incidentally it's an EV.
10mo ago

dzonga 10mo ago

a lot of these luxury brands have been eating off china the past few years but now they've lost their luster since china makes cars better than most luxury brands and china has a moat in EVs so what's left is either the US or emerging markets

rr808 10mo ago
> china makes cars better than most luxury brands More like China makes cheaper cars which is enough for most people.
- mullingitover 10mo ago
  Believe it or not, people aren't buying Audis in China because they're thrifty. China was a huge market for Audi in the past as luxury status symbol. However, now Chinese buyers are so enamored with new tech-heavy Chinese luxury cars that Audi had to go make a whole sub-brand specific to the Chinese market just to stay in the game[1]. [1] https://www.audi-mediacenter.com/en/press-releases/double-debut-in-shanghai-audi-and-the-audi-e-concept-16359 https://www.audi-mediacenter.com/en/press-releases/double-de...
- temp8830 10mo ago
  Google "Zeekr 9X" and then come back here if you still feel this way.
  - rr808 10mo ago
    That is ugly AF and there is no way I'd buy that over a Porsche. Zeekr 001 is prettier outside but inside still is terrible. https://www.datocms-assets.com/143770/1728613060-rectangle-46228986.jpg?auto=format https://www.datocms-assets.com/143770/1728613060-rectangle-4...
    - kulahan 10mo ago
      Calling it ugly is weird. It’s a copy-paste of a rolls Royce phantom, slapped on an SUV frame, with the cheapest possible interior they could design. There are much better ways to insult this garbage product. :)

_ea1k 10mo ago

Is this shocking? Obviously including PHEVs helps a bit, but even outside of this it is exactly what should be happening. Their biggest sellers are SUVs, and at these price points, the EVs can be substantially than their ICE counterparts. For 2026, they probably won't even need the PHEVs to get there, since the Cayenne EV is the best EV that they've built so far.

bz_bz_bz 10mo ago
Given that they walked back many of their BEV goals in mid-to-late 2025, some may find this surprising. The K1 was supposed to be all electric vehicle when it was announced, and they are now going to release it as a gas & PHEV first instead.

ggm 10mo ago

I think a lot of people are missing a point here. Cars are not (just) use-values. They are expression of desire. They are, for some brands, classic Veblen Goods. Porche possibly could sell more by putting the price up They put their marque behind EV and Hybrid. It worked. Their brand sold well. This is in contradistinction to vendors who won't think about this market niche in positives, but are being dragged into it.

kulahan 10mo ago
This is pretty much exactly what they’re doing. They even admit in TFA that their dedication to the customer experience is part of the reason for declining sales - spending time on quality action rather than immediately profitable ones.
9JollyOtter 10mo ago
This is true for quite a number of brands of vehicles. Also I don't understand what a modern Porsche is. Porsche to me was always a Rear Engined, (normally) RWD sports car i.e. the 911. I am personally on the look for a 944 (believe it or not they are cheaper than JDM cars of a similar vintage). When I see a Porsche SUV, to me that isn't a Porsche. It looks like any other SUV on the road with Porsche badge on it. It akin to someone putting a Apple Sticker over Dell Logo on their laptop. The same happens when you see a Bentley or Rolls Royce SUV. > They put their marque behind EV and Hybrid. It worked. Their brand sold well. They are losing money. Sales are down and they are planning to move back to ICE and are postponing or cancelling EV projects. https://finance.yahoo.com/news/porsche-loses-1-1-billion-220000386.html https://finance.yahoo.com/news/porsche-loses-1-1-billion-220...
- mullingitover 10mo ago
  That article throws out the wild claim “The news comes at a time when EV demand is on the decline across the car world.” EV sales increased around 20% last year.
  - aweiland 10mo ago

jadenpeterson 10mo ago

[flagged]

peterldowns 10mo ago
Excellent bait, really top notch stuff — no notes.
skhameneh 10mo ago
This does read/interpret a bit odd, because the Hummer H2 doesn’t strike me as a reliable vehicle and I’ve generally heard of them to be cost sinks (completely disregarding the horrible efficiency). Why not start off looking at the cheapest EV or PHEV that you can find without high mileage that’ll fit your daily driving habits, then give it a test drive? Consider how much monthly expenses will cost (might save ~90% on fuel) and then consider if you like the driving characteristics more.
- jadenpeterson 10mo ago
  Yeah it's not the... best. I bought it kind of on a lark, and the sunk cost made me reluctant to let go it. Any brand recommendations? I'm really not one for 'smart' features, though I know they're kind of intrinsic to electric vehicles.
  - skhameneh 10mo ago
    For cheap, the 2018 and later Nissan Leafs (old tech) or an Ariya (new tech, nothing notably exciting. Maybe also check out Ioniq 5, EV6, Equinox, etc. FWIW, my wife drives a Mach-E and I drive a Fisker Ocean. The Mach-E is very comfortable but tends to be a bit higher in price than some other options. The Fisker Ocean is.. (from what you’ve said) probably not for you.
    - skhameneh 10mo ago
      Also, a less efficient option with less “tech” would be a Silverado WT (work truck), those have a lot of range and sometimes you can find them for good used prices. Those are a hit or miss for deals because the MSRP is on the higher end.

anonymousiam 10mo ago

Not a very good year for them though: https://longyield.substack.com/p/porsche-in-crisis-when-an-iconic https://longyield.substack.com/p/porsche-in-crisis-when-an-i...

lofaszvanitt 10mo ago

And they all look the same and ugly as hell.

KnuthIsGod 10mo ago

Global sales of Porsche, Audi, Mercedes and BMW brand ( BMW Group sales increased marginally, but includes) have all declined. The end is in sight for German cars as Chinese made electric cars take over. I have had several German cars. Never again ! Sticking to Japanese and probably Chinese cars in the future. German cars were decent once. Now they are notorious for poor long term reliability.

rr808 10mo ago
Japanese and Chinese are very different buckets. What is the long term reliability of Chinese cars? Nobody knows.
- thaumasiotes 10mo ago
  I wouldn't be too concerned. Hyundai used to be synonymous with "garbage".
  - dietr1ch 10mo ago
    Yeah maybe I'll get a Chinese car in 50yrs
  - linksnapzz 10mo ago
    People who have purchased Hyundai/Kia products w/ the GDI Theta II engine would, perhaps, take issue with "used to be".
    - Braxton1980 10mo ago
      One engine issue due to a manufacturing flaw shouldn't be enough to counter their massive change in produt lines over the years
      - olyjohn 10mo ago
        Maybe just anecdotal evidence, but i'm noticing a lot of Kias with no brake lights. I'm suspecting bad body control modules are going to become more of a thing as these cars age. I noticed when GMT800 trucks were blowing DRLs constantly and lo and behold there's a TSB for that. So I don't think I'm imagining things.

moomoo11 10mo ago

I used to really be into cars up to a few years ago. These days, I think it is just far better to do without a car. I like being very local, and if I really need to go somewhere outside my city (SF) I'll just not lol. I'll take a flight to visit my parents or my closest friends. Everyone else, we can just meet online. I have no friends in SF, so I'm just sorta dissolved into the neighborhood. When I did have a car, I'd go on long drives but looking back that was just a waste of time. Maybe I'll drive again when I've "made it" but until then, gimme some Brooks lol.

twodave 10mo ago

I’ll be honest, kind of tired of every automotive-related thread turning into blowing smoke up China’s ass. It’s become almost as predictable as what goes on in Windows-related threads.

linksnapzz 10mo ago
Well, it's nice to know that people are enthusiastic about manufacturing happening someplace; I just wish more of it would happen in the US.
- twodave 10mo ago
  IMO it’s just to the point where it becomes off-topic. This article isn’t about the US vs China.

itsthecourier 10mo ago

I was reading about Porsche this week on reddit. lots of complaints about Taycans. always have been a fan of Porsche. hope they find the way forward

joeel84 10mo ago

I just buy japanese cars/vehicles these days. With that being said a lot of them are manufactured stateside - especially larger vehicles. I had a Mitsu I was very happy with. I've also purchased Hyundai made in Korea and it is wonderful but not much better that what was built in Iowa.

jcims 10mo ago
I grew up by the assembly plants in Ohio and worked there on various temp jobs in the late 80s/early 90s. There was (maybe still is) a lot of local pride in the product that comes out of those plants, the amount of energy that was put into quality control was boggling to my young mind. This included the motorcycle plant, where I had a few jobs correcting supplier parts that were just a smidge out of spec before bolting them on to the ATVs they were cranking out at the time. Made me realize quality is a process that requires investment and commitment, and not some magic quality imbued upon the product by the locale in which it's made.
toephu2 10mo ago
Buying an ICE vehicle in 2026 is like...buying a video cassette player when DVD players were already coming out?
- toenail 10mo ago
  No, there are many good, valid reasons to own an ICE vehicle.
- jp0d 10mo ago
  Well, they make perfect sense to buy down here in here Australia. When I replace my current seven year old ICE car, it'll either be a diesel or a petrol electric hybrid. In either case it'll be a Japanese one.
- NetMageSCW 10mo ago
  Buying a BEV in 2026 is like buying a Beta VCR when VHS is just coming out?

maxdo 10mo ago

German cars have lost their technological edge. They can't even build their own infotainment systems anymore. They're paying billions to China to do it for them. I can't overstate how catastrophically stupid this is. Paying what they consider smaller competitors real cash to build core software, instead of developing that capability in-house or acquiring a few startups with decent engineering talent. This isn't just a bad decision. It reveals a completely dysfunctional decision-making process and a total absence of technical ambition. People who say but "Porche/Mercedes/etc.." has this design. Luxury segment is not coming from nowhere. This is the same reason british luxury cars are gone essentially. It will take some time, but EU built cars will be in a constant decline. What's even more fun, they don't want to protect their own market the same way chinese did.

dmix 10mo ago
> instead of developing that capability in-house or acquiring a few startups with decent engineering talent. It's usually the former and their infotainment stuff is usually nothing to get excited about. When they buy startups they get bogged down and burn off the talent quickly. Maybe the solution is not having the same small set of car companies trying to pull off the survival balancing act as we did a century ago, maybe that's why China is progressing quicker.
- maxdo 10mo ago
  Their biggest brand, BYD, is also relatively the "oldest." It's the governemt priorities, local gov in China is building EV companies, AI companies. EU governemnt, US local gov is building shelters, or people who kick out people from a shelter on a voters mood swing. A friend from the EU visited recently. He said, "At least the Netherlands is doing much better than 10 years ago...we have lights, roads." That one sentence captures the entire mindset gap. The bitter irony: Philips literally built ASML and TSMC, then sold both. Now those companies dominate global semiconductor supply chains while Philips sells... healthcare equipment at a loss. And ASML is about to lose it's dominance too. But yeah...lights on the streets. Built with Chinese LEDs. Powered by Chinese solar panels. Bought using budget deficits. In debt. And the deficit keeps growing. Some EU countries faster, some slower. But the trend is unmistakable.

jojobas 10mo ago

People with luxury beliefs can afford luxury items, news at 5.

deleted 10mo ago

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compounding_it 10mo ago

We are in the transition phase from ICE to an Electric motor. It's too early to call who can nail it. Currently the Chinese cars are cheap and have long range. But in India Tatas and Mahindra makes cheap EVs that may not be as reliable but people are still buying them a lot. In US gas is still cheap compared to income, so hybrids like Camry are always going to be preferred over a low end EV like the model 3. It all depends on service network and value for money. And now charging network and range. People who find a way to give you value for money will probably nail it.

Palomides 10mo ago

probably worth mentioning they discontinued the ICE Macan (and 718 Cayman/Boxster) in Europe? also they put a dinky 2KWh battery in some 911s

speed_spread 10mo ago

They can try selling me an electric sports car the day they get the weight back under ~1500kg. Electric cars are fast in straight line, but that extra inertia is a killer in curves. I want a long range go-kart.

NetMageSCW 10mo ago
Their ICE sports cars barely make that in a lot of cases. I think you will need a long wait and a different manufacturer to get a very light weight BEV sports car.
- speed_spread 10mo ago
  Early 986 Boxsters weighted ~1300kg. Newer 718 models are a tad heavier, reaching 1400kg. The ICE Macan was 1900kg and newer electric ones are 2300kg and that's for their medium sized SUV! This craziness has to stop.

jeanzy 10mo ago

Porsche sold more electrified cars than gas cars in Europe in 2025. Pretty interesting to see the shift happening so quickly.

datahack 10mo ago
It’s not rocket science. Porsche discontinued the gas Macan in the EU, leaving the new all electric Macan as the primary option. That’s the top seller. So… you end up with more electric than gas — because you don’t sell it.

apparent 10mo ago

Aren't many of these non-pure-gas-powered vehicles still very gas-heavy, but just have an electric system for extra oomph?

deleted 10mo ago
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toephu2 10mo ago

Can't wait until Chinese EVs come to America

Animats 10mo ago
They'll be in Canada soon, and some will make it across the border.

mdavid626 10mo ago

Just to be sure: electrified means hybrid and EV-s.

rswail 10mo ago

The US/EU/JP manufacturers are half-pregnant, they have engine and other mechanical production plants that will become stranded assets as BEVs don't need engines, gearboxes or the other hydraulic/cooling etc infrastructure that an ICE vehicle needs. Electric motors are essentially maintenance free over the life of a BEV, same for the batteries. The maintenance is for brake pads/rotors, but regen braking also avoids that. There is the passenger heat pumps for heat/cooling, and the lighting, but LED lighting also requires minimal maintenance. That cuts out a large chunk of the automotive industry in general. US/EU/JP manufacturers are having to handle a major market disruption, independent of whether or not CN is leaping over them.

hdgvhicv 10mo ago
My last MOT in a petrol engine required suspension, tyres and lights. Electric wouldn’t change any of that
- rswail 10mo ago
  Lights with LEDs are likely to not need maintenance. Suspension and tyres might actually need more frequent maintenance because of the extra weight of an EV. But how often does suspension require actual maintenance?
  - TheJoeMan 10mo ago
    When your LED brake light goes out, you have to purchase an entire assembly as the LED's are part of the PCB. There are no "bulbs" for a few dollars. And with the matrix LED's a few may go out, now your brake light "sort of" works, so it's even harder to justify replacing.
  - hdgvhicv 10mo ago
    Petrol cars have led lights now too. It’s an alignment problem, trivial fix. The suspension is a rust issue, I believe EVs are still made of metal. Given in the last 3 years I’ve only spent money on tyres, replacement wing mirror, and now suspension on this car, and you assert an EV needs more spending on tyres and suspension, it seems that an equivalent EV would be higher maintenence costs. I’m sure things are different at the high end of the market where you’re spending £10k on a nearly new car, but at my end where it’s under £2k it doesn’t make sense.

black_13 10mo ago

[dead]

whatever1 10mo ago

Porsche was on the brink of bankruptcy. Then they started making SUVs. It turned out the SUVs are the ones that are bringing in all the cash to the company. The audience of Porsche SUVs (cayenne, macan) care about signaling wealth via the badge. But they mostly want an everyday car for their commute, groceries / kid pickup. No wonder the EVs options sell better. They have the badge, and are better at everyday tasks. The 911 will stay gas powered (maybe e fuel at some point if mining of oil stops), because the target audience cares equally for signaling as well as the driving experience.

Gravityloss 10mo ago
Hmm this comment gives the impression that electric Porsches are bad to drive and are only bought for the badge and convenience, like the SUV:s. I haven't driven a Taycan so can't say but I would assume it's not so. (And also it doesn't look like a convenient car.)
- AdamN 10mo ago
  Also Porsche SUVs regularly rank at the top of luxury SUV reviews. I've never driven one but the consensus is that they're great - it's not just badge engineering.
  - lan321 10mo ago
    The Cayenne has no right to be as fast as it is. The stupid thing will powerslide out of corners at 120 kmh and fly at hot hatch speeds through twisty cobblestone roads. The brakes were also wonderful and surprisingly cheap for the size. Didn't have air suspension so it rode like a fast car though.
- muvlon 10mo ago
  Car enthusiasts caring about the driving experience doesn't just mean drivability. Engine sound is a huge part of it. All the classic Porsche 911 have flat-6 engines which make a distinctive sound that is totally part of the brand. FTR I don't care about this myself, I'm happy with my EV. But the importance of this aspect is easily missed by people not part of the target demographic.

jagermo 10mo ago

you know the sad thing? Porsche didn't even try. They could have copied Teslas playbook and create a cool, fun, overpowered electric 911 or Targa or pull an old, fun concept and make it electric. Instead, they have a boring SVU and the panamera, one of the probably ugliest car they have. No one buys a Porsche because they want a sensible car for their family or they need something with large storage. They want midlife-crisis cars that go fast and look sleak. They are now giving up on their entire electric strategy. I don't get it. They could have ridden the wave of electric fun vehicles, instead they are giving in. Either because they can't do it or because they had no real interest to begin with.

hnben 10mo ago
> No one buys a Porsche because they want a sensible car for their family or they need something with large storage I know two porsche-owners personally. One sometimes uses his porsche (non SUV, but the small fast one) to go on family vacations (with the kids cramped at the too small back seats, which seems funny to me). The other has an SUV and lives in the country with bad roads; They sometimes use their porsche to commute to work and for everyday-stuff like shopping.
- jagermo 10mo ago
  > The other has an SUV and lives in the country with bad roads; They sometimes use their porsche to commute to work and for everyday-stuff like shopping. That blows my mind. I guess its the same mindset as people who buy a mercedes "jeep" (don't know the product id) or range rover and live the middle of the city.
  - PokemonNoGo 10mo ago
    Sorry I'm lost (getting late over here). Wouldn't a Porsche SUV fit perfectly out in the country on bad roads? The Cayenne is made for it?

lql1 10mo ago

In some european countries (atleast in finland), you pay less taxes for "electrified" cars than pure gas powered, so most people who buy porsche (atleast in finland) does not ever charge the car via charger, and never drive with "hybrid mode". Hybrid porsches are called "tax evasion hybrids" atleast in finland

petercooper 10mo ago
This is true to some extent in the UK as well. We have a curious company car tax regime where CO2 emissions are used to define the tax rates so hybrids are somewhat lower, although it's still onerous compared to just buying a car personally. However, pure EVs are taxed at very low rates in comparison, so if you own a company or have the ability to do a "salary sacrifice" for a car with your employer, it becomes very tax advantageous to get an EV. Your company can also pay for your insurance, EV charge installation, public charging costs (even for private mileage) and so forth, so it's very common to see small business owners in EVs compared to private buyers. Porsches also tend to have particularly low monthly payments compared to their value since I guess they hold their value well and can be traded back in at the end of the financing period. I don't have one, though, as a Porsche is just crying out to be keyed or mocked where I live compared to a more modest car.
mwelpa 10mo ago
same in Poland - 9,3% tax for electrified cars, and 18,6% for gasoline ones.

thinkingemote 10mo ago

Electric cars are required by law to emit sound via a speaker for safety. Usually the sound is unique and somewhat electronic in nature. Some electric sports cars, and I'm not sure but Porsche may be one of them, have a loud deep bassy faux-sports engine sound emitting from the speaker. "VROOOOM VROOOOOM VROOOM!" - on an electric car. Does anyone else find this *extremely* weird? It's like a petrol car having a speaker playing the coconuts (as it's replaced the horse).

lukan 10mo ago
More weird is, that the electric harley davidson is by intention more loud than the gas powered ones. But the law requires a artificial sound only for low speeds. Electric cars are indeed silent and it can be dangerous not expecting one approaching, when one is used to loud explosion engines. But I would prefer to just have no noise and people adopting.
thomas_witt 10mo ago
Totally agreed. It is beyond understanding why you would even pay extra to get these sounds. The heavenly silence is one of the great advantages of an EV in my opinion.
11mariom 10mo ago
> Electric cars are required by law to emit sound via a speaker for safety. Usually the sound is unique and somewhat electronic in nature. And this is absolutely… bad. I mean requiring is good, but almost all of the execution of it is awfully bad. It can be personal - but Hz of that sounds just makes me boil inside. That's how badly I'm receiving it. Almost no other sounds I hear on daily basis makes me uncomfortable. And another issue - when somebody is parking the sound goes on, off, on, off, and that all the time until person is happy how car is parked. Couldn't it just make that sound all the time? Would be easier to get used to it. Same way it works with PC fans - there is no benefit to keep it as lowest as possible at all times, the trick is to keep it spinning fast enough to avoid as many changes of speed as possible - keeping the noise constant and easier to live with.
anentropic 10mo ago

graemep 10mo ago

two things that stood out for me: 1. A lot of hybrids 2. "Reasons for the decrease in both regions include supply gaps for the combustion-engined 718 and Macan models due to EU cybersecurity regulations." What is the second about?

NetMageSCW 10mo ago
New regulations in the EU require increased security features in connected cars and secure updates that couldn’t be implemented in the older digital systems of the 718/Macan without redesigning all new systems, and since Porsche was planning on electrifying those models first, they moved that ahead rather than create new ICE models. In retrospect that was too early a move to BEV for them.

KellyCriterion 10mo ago

putting the rating together that way is some type of "automotive market Garry Mandering", Id say?

jgalt212 10mo ago

I'm hoping Porsche's profit woes will lead them to making 911 supply less restrictive--especially in the US. New 911s in US trade above sticker price and have long (not Ferrari long), but long waiting lists.