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Rust in the kernel is no longer experimental
- irusensei 10mo agoHappy to hear. We should embrace new things.
- EverydayBalloon 10mo ago[dead]
- t43562 10mo agoGreat. Python in the kernel!
- integralid 10mo agoWhy? New things are less stable, immature and require a lot of effort to understand. Don't get me wrong, rust in the kernel is good, because the memory safety and expressiveness it brings makes it worth it DESPITE the huge effort required to introduce it. But I disagree that new things are inherently good.
- dwattttt 10mo ago> I disagree that new things are inherently good. New things aren't automatically good. But you don't get new things that are good without trying new things. By avoiding new things, you're guaranteed to not experience less stable, immature, and confusing things. But also any new things that are good.
- epohs 10mo agoThis seems big. Is this big?
- CrankyBear 10mo agoYup.
- account42 10mo agoIt's a big dependency added alright.
- cromka 10mo agoIs that all it is?
- shevy-java 10mo agoWell - what is actually written in Rust so far that is in the kernel?
- azzentys 10mo agohttps://rust-for-linux.com/ https://rust-for-linux.com/ shows a list.
- anotherhue 10mo agoSafety is good.
- lomase 10mo agoThat is why most of the world has not been using c/c++ for decades.
- bogantech 10mo agoMost software development these days is JS/Typescript slop, popular doesn't equal better
- recursive 10mo agoYou can write slop in any language. And good software for that matter.
- mlindner 10mo agoI've never met anything written in JS/Typescript that I would call "well written".
- lomase 10mo agoBait used to be credible.
- josephg 10mo agoI have. I personally really enjoy the recent crop of UI frameworks built for the web. Tools like Solidjs or Svelte. Whatever your thoughts are about react, the JavaScript community that has been the tip of the spear for experimenting with new ways to program user interfaces. They’ve been at it for decades - ever since jQuery. The rest of the programming world are playing catchup. For example, SwiftUI. VSCode is also a wonderful little IDE. Somehow much faster and more stable than XCode, despite being built on electron.
- arilotter 10mo agoThis title is moderately clickbait-y and comes with a subtle implication that Rust might be getting removed from the kernel. IMO it should be changed to "Rust in the kernel is no longer experimental"
- onedognight 10mo agoIt’s a bit clickbait-y, but the article is short, to the point, and frankly satisfying. If there is such a thing as good clickbait, then this might be it. Impressive work!
- Redster 10mo agoPerhaps, except it can have the reverse effect. I was surprised, disappointed, and then almost moved on without clicking the link or the discussion. I'm glad I clicked. But good titles don't mislead! (To be fair, this one didn't mislead, but it was confusing at best.)
- ModernMech 10mo agoMight as well just post it: The topic of the Rust experiment was just discussed at the annual Maintainers Summit. The consensus among the assembled developers is that Rust in the kernel is no longer experimental — it is now a core part of the kernel and is here to stay. So the "experimental" tag will be coming off. Congratulations are in order for all of the Rust-for-Linux team.
- testdelacc1 10mo agoThis should just be the pinned comment.
- panzi 10mo agoI'm having deja Vu. Was there another quite similar headline here a few weeks or so ago?
- sho_hn 10mo agoI absolutely understand the sentiment, but LWN is a second-to-none publication that on this rare occasion couldn't resist the joke, and also largely plays to an audience who will immediately understand that it's tongue-in-cheek. Speaking as a subscriber of about two decades who perhaps wouldn't have a career without the enormous amount of high-quality education provided by LWN content, or at least a far lesser one: Let's forgive.
- nibman 10mo ago[dead]
- markus_zhang 10mo agoNot a system programmer -- at this point, does C hold any significant advantage over Rust? Is it inevitable that everything written in C is going to be gradually converted to safer languages?
- stingraycharles 10mo agoIt’s available on more obscure platforms than Rust, and more people are familiar with it. I wouldn’t say it’s inevitable that everything will be rewritten in Rust, at the very least this will this decades. C has been with us for more than half a century and is the foundation of pretty much everything, it will take a long time to migrate all that. More likely is that they will live next to each other for a very, very long time.
- drnick1 10mo agoEvery system under the Sun has a C compiler. This isn't remotely true for Rust. Rust is more modern than C, but has it's own issues, among others very slow compilation times. My guess is that C will be around long after people will have moved on from Rust to another newfangled alternative.
- vlovich123 10mo agoI can’t think of many real world production systems which don’t have a rust target. Also I’m hopeful the GCC backend for rustc makes some progress and can become an option for the more esoteric ones
- MobiusHorizons 10mo agoIt's mostly embedded / microcontroller stuff. Things that you would use something like SDCC or a vendor toolchain for. Things like the 8051, stm8, PIC or oddball things like the 4 cent Padauk micros everyone was raving about a few years ago. 8051 especially still seems to come up from time to time in things like the ch554 usb controller, or some NRF 2.4ghz wireless chips.
- RustSupremacist 10mo ago[flagged]
- m00dy 10mo agoC++ devs are spinning in their graves now.
- sho_hn 10mo agoOr installing Haiku!
- RGBCube 10mo agoThe C++ that have the humility to realize are using Rust.
- pjmlp 10mo agoNah, they just smile when they see LLVM and GCC on Rust build dependencies. :)
- josephg 10mo agoYeah they’re all just tools. From a technical perspective, rust, C and C++ work together pretty well. Swift too. LLVM LTO can even do cross language inlining. I don’t think C++ is going anywhere any time soon. Not with it powering all the large game engines, llvm, 30 million lines of google chrome and so on. It’s an absolute workhorse.
- pjmlp 10mo agoWhy should they? Other platforms don't have a leader that hates C++, and then accepts a language that is also quite complex, even has two macro systems of Lisp like wizardy, see Serde. OSes have been being written with C++ on the kernel, since the late 1990's, and AI is being powered by hardware (CUDA) that was designed specifically to accomodate C++ memory model. Also Rust compiler depends on a compiler framework written in C++, without it there is no Rust compiler, and apparently they are in no hurry to bootstrap it.
- maximilianburke 10mo ago> Also Rust compiler depends on a compiler framework written in C++ As does the GCC C compiler.
- wewewedxfgdf 10mo agoOh dear can you imagine the crushing complexity of a future Rust kernel.
- g947o 10mo agoDo you have any quantitative measures to prove there would be an increase in complexity?
- dralley 10mo agoBy most accounts the Rust4Linux project has made the kernel less complex by forcing some technical debt to be addressed and bad APIs to be improved.
- mlindner 10mo agoThis made me quite curious, is there a list somewhere of what bad APIs have been removed/improved and/or technical debt that's been addressed? Or if not a list, some notable examples?
- dwattttt 10mo agoI don't know that there's a list, but cases come to mind because they've been controversial. (Not a Linux hacker, so apologies if I get this wrong) The filesystem APIs were quite arcane, and in particular whether or not you were allowed to call a C function at a certain point wasn't documented, and relied on experience to know already. In trying to write idiomatic Rust bindings, the Rust for Linux group asked the filesystems maintainer if they could document these requirements, so that the Rust bindings could enforce as much of them as they could. The result was... drama.
- JuniperMesos 10mo agoThe Linux kernel is already very complex, and I expect that replacing much or all of it with Rust code will be good for making it more tractable to understand. Because you can represent complex states with more sophisticated types than in C, if nothing else.
- shmerl 10mo agoThe title sounded worse than it is.
- dcrazy 10mo agoDoes the removal of “experimental” now mean that all maintainers are now obligated to not break Rust code?
- teekert 10mo agoYeah I was wondering about that one angry bearded guy in that movie. He will be very upset.
- bpavuk 10mo agoI am missing some context, did not follow the Linux/Rust drama. which guy?
- grimgrin 10mo agolinus torvalds
- teekert 10mo agoI can't find the movie, but there was a guy angry that stated that he should not have to learn Rust, nobody should. And Rust should not be in the kernel.
- xphos 10mo agoIts in a talk about File systems in Rust for Linux. Basically the rust maintainer who I think stepped down was talking about how the C-code base for VFS has a lot of documented but complex orderings where you have to call a lock, or pin before accessing an Inode(or something) one way but not the other. They made a bunch of Rust Types so you basically could not produce an illegal ordering and got heckled pretty hard by the "bearded guy". They basically run out the presentation time with heckling and I think the Rust maintainer quit a few months later (over many similar instances of this. don't quote me time line here) [source] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WiPp9YEBV0Q https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WiPp9YEBV0Q
- p0w3n3d 10mo agoThey had me in the first half of the article, not gonna lie. I thought they resigned because Rust was so complicated and unsuitable, but it's the opposite
- qwm 10mo agoIt got my hopes up that they had backed off so they could solve their problems before returning to subject the kernel to their language.
- andersmurphy 10mo agoI guess it's time to finally try FreeBSD.
- ggm 10mo agoLua in the kernel!
- astrange 10mo agoBSD development mostly works through the classic approach of pretending that if you write C code and then stare at it really really hard it'll be correct. I'm not actually sure if they've gotten as far as having unit tests. (OpenBSD adds the additional step of adding a zillion security mitigations that were revealed to them in a dream and don't actually do anything.)
- josephg 10mo agoWhy? Are you allergic to running rust code? You know, you can’t actually tell when you execute a binary? I don’t like programming in Go, but nothing stops me running go programs on my computer. My computer doesn’t seem to care.
- andersmurphy 10mo agoIt's not about rust or no rust, rust is fine. It's about the constant drama.
- semiinfinitely 10mo agoThis is great because it means someday (possibly soon) Linux development will slowly grind to a halt and become unmaintainable, so we can start from scratch and write a new kernel.
- preisschild 10mo agoOr you can take this as a sign that the linux kernel adapts modern programming languages so that more programmers can contribute :)
- GaryBluto 10mo ago> the linux kernel adapts modern programming languages so that more programmers can contribute :) I'm eagerly awaiting the day the Linux kernel is rewritten in Typescript so that more programmers can contribute :)
- bigfishrunning 10mo agoYou can start from scratch and write a new kernel now! Nothing's stopping you.
- timeon 10mo agoIdeally in Rust.
- Simplita 10mo agoI’m curious how they’ll manage long term safety without the guarantees Rust brought. That tradeoff won’t age well.
- silisili 10mo agoIt's late, but I'm having a hell of a time parsing this. Could you explain what you meant?
- javawizard 10mo agoI think they read the title but not the article and assumed Rust was being removed, and (rightfully, if that were true) opined that that was a shortsighted decision. (Of course, that's not what's happening at all.)
- silisili 10mo agoAh! I hadn't considered that, thanks. That makes way more sense - having read the article I couldn't figure out what was being said here otherwise.
- javawizard 10mo agoYou may want to read the article. (Spoiler alert: Rust graduated to a full, first-class part of the kernel; it isn't being removed.)
- tzury 10mo ago> Mike: rachel and i are no longer dating > > rachel: mike that's a horrible way of telling people we're married from the meme section on that page.
- devsda 10mo ago> same Mike in an org wide email: thank you all for your support. Starting next week I will no longer be a developer here. I thank my manager blah blah... I will be starting my dream role as Architect and I hope to achieve success. > Mike's colleagues: Aww.. We'll miss you. > Mike's manager: Is this your one week's notice? Did you take up an architect job elsewhere immediately after I promoted you to architect ?!
- keybored 10mo agoJoke, enterprise edition..
- notachatbot123 10mo agoI was confused but then noticed the actual headline of the submitted page: "The end of the kernel Rust experiment"
- Elfener 10mo agoThat was also the title of the HN post, before it was changed.
- cevious 10mo agoKind of tells you something about how timidly and/or begrudgingly it’s been accepted. IMO the attitude is warranted. There is no good that comes from having higher-level code than necessary at the kernel level. The dispute is whether the kernel needs to be more modern, but it should be about what is the best tool for the job. Forget the bells-and-whistles and answer this: does the use of Rust generate a result that is more performant and more efficient than the best result using C? This isn’t about what people want to use because it’s a nice language for writing applications. The kernel is about making things work with minimum overhead. By analogy, the Linux kernel historically has been a small shop mentored by a fine woodworker. Microsoft historically has been a corporation with a get-it-done attitude. Now we’re saying Linux should be a “let’s see what the group thinks- no they don’t like your old ways, and you don’t have the energy anymore to manage this” shop, which is sad, but that is the story everywhere now. This isn’t some 20th century revolution where hippies eating apples and doing drugs are creating video games and graphical operating systems, it’s just abandoning old ways because they don’t like them and think the new ways are good enough and are easier to manage and invite more people in than the old ways. That’s Microsoft creep.
- hgs3 10mo agoRust in the kernel feels like a red herring. For fault tolerance and security, wouldn’t it be a superior solution to migrate Linux to a microkernel architecture? That way, drivers and various other components could be isolated in sandboxes.
- tgma 10mo agoJust use MINIX, or GNU Hurd.
- fuzztester 10mo agoEven better, be like the Amish, and build your own as much as you can.
- tgma 10mo agoNot sure I get the joke. MINIX is not building from scratch. It's a serious choice if one needs a microkernel. Hurd is more experimental but still not Amish.
- fuzztester 10mo agoSorry I only saw your reply now. It was not meant as a joke. The point was more about being self-reliant. But it was a light-gearted comment.
- the_gipsy 10mo agoGo ahead and do it!
- TZubiri 10mo agoYou should develop a small experimental kernel with that architecture and publish it on a mailing list.
- inapis 10mo agoI am not a system programmer but, from my understanding, Torvalds has expressed strong opinions about microkernels over a long period of time. The concept looks cleaner on paper but the complexity simply outweighs all the potential benefits. The debate, from what I have followed, expressed similar themes as monolithic vs microservices in the wider software development arena.
- N_Lens 10mo agoAfter all the resistance to Rust in the Linux Kernel, it's finally official. Kudos to the Linux Rust team!
- trueno 10mo agowasn't there like a drive by maintainer rejection of something rust related that kind of disrupted the asahi project ? i can't say i followed the developments much but i do recall it being some of that classic linux kernel on broadway theater. i also wonder if that was a first domino falling of sorts for asahi, i legitimately can't tell if that project lives on anymore
- bayindirh 10mo agoIIRC, it was not about Rust vs. C, but a commotion rooted from patch quality and not pushing people around about things. Linux Kernel team has this habit of a forceful pushback which breaks souls and hearts when prodded too much. Looks like Hector has deleted his Mastodon account, so I can't look back what he said exactly. Oh, I still have the relevant tab open. It's about code quality: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=43043312 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=43043312
- chippiewill 10mo agoThat was a single message in a very large thread. It absolutely was not just about code quality.
- bayindirh 10mo agoYes, that's the entry of the rabbit hole, and reader is advised to dig their own tunnel. I remember following the tension for a bit. Yes, there are other subjects about how things are done, but after reading it, I remember framing "code quality" as the base issue. In high-stakes software development environments, egos run high generally, and when people clash and doesn't back up, sparks happen. If this warning is ignored, then something has to give. If I'm mistaken, I can enjoy a good explanation and be gladly stand corrected. This is what happened here. This is probably the second or third time I witness this over 20+ years. Most famous one was over CPU schedulers, namely BFS, again IIRC.
- ykonstant 10mo agoI need to check the rust parts of the kernel, I presume there is significant amounts of unsafe. Is unsafe Rust a bit better nowadays? I remember a couple of years ago people complained that unsafe is really hard to write and very "un-ergonomic".
- jenadine 10mo agoThe idea is that most of the unsafe code to interact with the C API of the kernel is abstracted in the kernel crate, and the drivers themselves should use very little amount of unsafe code, if any.
- IshKebab 10mo agoI don't think unsafe Rust has gotten any easier to write, but I'd also be surprised if there was much unsafe except in the low-level stuff (hard to write Vec without unsafe), and to interface with C which is actually not hard to write. Mostly Rust has been used for drivers so far. Here's the first Rust driver I found: https://github.com/torvalds/linux/blob/2137cb863b8018710315138f40eefcceb8584d1b/drivers/pwm/pwm_th1520.rs https://github.com/torvalds/linux/blob/2137cb863b80187103151... It has one trivial use of `unsafe` - to support Send & Sync for a type - and that is apparently temporary. Everything else uses safe APIs.
- johncolanduoni 10mo agoDrivers are interesting from a safety perspective, because on systems without an IOMMU sending the wrong command to devices can potentially overwrite most of RAM. For example, if the safe wrappers let you write arbitrary data to a PCIe network card’s registers you could retarget a receive queue to the middle of a kernel memory page.
- josephg 10mo ago> if the safe wrappers let you write arbitrary data to a PCIe network card’s registers Functions like that can and should be marked unsafe in rust. The unsafe keyword in rust is used both to say “I want this block to have access to unsafe rust’s power” and to mark a function as being only callable from an unsafe context. This sounds like a perfect use for the latter.
- jenadine 10mo agoAnd yet, the Linux kernel's Rust code uses unstable features only available on a nightly compiler. Not optimal for ease of compilation and building old versions of the Kernel. (You need a specific version of the nightly compiler to build a specific version of the Kernel)
- flanked-evergl 10mo agoCan you please share more details about this?
- jenadine 10mo agohttps://rust-for-linux.com/unstable-features#unstable-features https://rust-for-linux.com/unstable-features#unstable-featur...
- deleted 10mo ago[deleted]
- dralley 10mo agoThe Linux kernel has been using stable versions of Rust for some time now. You do not need nightly or beta Rust compilers to compile the kernel. https://www.phoronix.com/news/Linux-Patches-Multiple-Rust-Ver https://www.phoronix.com/news/Linux-Patches-Multiple-Rust-Ve...
- hmry 10mo agoluckily downloading a specific nightly version is only a single rustup command
- Surac 10mo ago[flagged]
- oblio 10mo ago1. Which drama? 2. End users absolutely do not care in which programming language an application (or OS, they can't tell the difference and don't care) is written in. They only care if it does the job they need quickly, safely and easily.
- notthemessiah 10mo agoI'm guessing he means Rust voicing solidarity with Ukraine and sympathy with everyone affected by a conflict? It's hard to tell when people vaguepost. I guess wars of invasion/annexation are too controversial to oppose. "Before going into the details of the new Rust release, we'd like to state that we stand in solidarity with the people of Ukraine and express our support for all people affected by this conflict."
- johncolanduoni 10mo agoIf drama was going to drive Linux kernel developers away, it would have just been Torvalds working on it alone for 30 years. For better or worse, that community has selected for having very thorough antibodies to conflict.
- bigfishrunning 10mo agoYou should learn some, you might change your opinion! At the end of the day, having some pressure to select for kernel developers that are open minded and willing to learn new things might not be a bad thing. And at any rate, C will be a big part of kernel development forever, so those unwilling to learn new tools or techniques can still contribute in a meaningful way if they want to.
- Mikhail_K 10mo ago[flagged]
- bryanrasmussen 10mo agoreally? I recently read that "A 100% Rust kernel is now upstream in Linux 7.4"
- AshleysBrain 10mo agoThat was from an AI hallucinating HN 10 years from now: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=46205632 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=46205632
- hantusk 10mo agoyou're joking because of the other frontpage story with Gemini 3 hallucinating hacker news 10 years in the future, but still lets keep the hallucinations to that page.
- gaudystead 10mo agoI was wondering if anybody "ate the onion" from the other day...
- bryanrasmussen 10mo agoI see that my ability to communicate things obliquely as is my habit and the hallmark of my personal style is doing as well as ever on HN.
- krick 10mo agoFWIW, I personally liked the joke.
- nalnq 10mo ago[flagged]
- CrulesAll 10mo agoThat's not how it works. Once in control, vanguardism defends itself by suppressing all dissent. It does not dissipate. It grows like a virus.
- nalnq 10mo agoMaybe so. But on the other hand as the community grows and becomes politically diverse, you will stop being afraid of being branded part of political movements that you don’t like just by using a certain programming language, which is… good enough?
- sedatk 10mo agoWhat yucky politics?
- oblio 10mo agoProbably something silly because we live in the age of polarization and thoughts compressed in 150 character tweets.
- notthemessiah 10mo agoAgreed, the vagueposting is indication of ill-intent of the top-level comment. No hyperlinks or specifics, it might as well be a game of mad-libs where you insert your grievance here.
- CrulesAll 10mo ago[flagged]
- reppap 10mo agoInsane people have decided that Rust is on the "woke" side of the culture war. Reading the phoronix comment section is hilarious because any post about rust devolves into a bunch of boomers whining about "blue-haired woke rust programmers" and other nonsense.
- amiga386 10mo agoDoes this mean that all architectures that Linux supports but Rust doesn't are straight in the bin?
- bmicraft 10mo agoWhich ones would that be?
- eru 10mo agoAnd more specifically which ones that anyone would use a new kernel on?
- kykat 10mo agoSome people talk about 68k not being supported being a problem
- pornel 10mo agom68k Linux is supported by Rust, even in the LLVM backend. Rust also has an experimental GCC-based codegen backend (based on libgccjit (which isn't used as a JIT)). So platforms that don't have either LLVM nor recent GCC are screwed.
- sakompella 10mo agohow on earth is linux being compiled for platforms without a GCC? additionally, I believe the GCC backend is incomplete. the `core` library is able to compile, but rust's `std` cannot be.
- dwattttt 10mo agoI don't believe Rust for Linux use std. I'm not sure how much of Rust for Linux the GCC/Rust effort(s) are able to compile, but if it was "all of it" I'm sure we'd have heard about it.
- 10mo ago
- weinzierl 10mo agoThat is so good to hear. I feel Rust support came a long way in the past two years and you can do a functional Rust kernel module now with almost no boilerplate. Removing the "experimental" tag is certainly a milestone to celebrate. I'm looking forward to distros shipping a default kernel with Rust support enabled. That, to me, will be the real point of no return, where Rust is so prevalent that there will be no going back to a C only Linux.
- pta2002 10mo agoA few distros already do that. Of the top of my head, both NixOS and Arch enable the QR code kernel panic screen, which is written in Rust. Granted, those are rather bleeding edge, but I know a few more traditional distros have that enabled (I _think_ fedora has it? But not sure).
- embedding-shape 10mo ago> both NixOS and Arch enable the QR code kernel panic screen Interesting, I use both (NixOS on servers, Arch for desktop) and never seen that. Seems you're referring to this: https://rust-for-linux.com/drm-panic-qr-code-generator https://rust-for-linux.com/drm-panic-qr-code-generator (which looks like this: https://github.com/kdj0c/panic_report/issues/1 https://github.com/kdj0c/panic_report/issues/1) Too bad NixOS and Arch is so stable I can't remember the last time any full system straight up panicked.
- pta2002 10mo agoYep, that's what I'm referring to. For now there aren't many popular drivers that use Rust, but there are currently 3 in-development GPU drivers that use it, and I suspect that when those get merged that'll be the real point of no return: - Asahi Linux's driver for Apple GPUs - https://rust-for-linux.com/apple-agx-gpu-driver https://rust-for-linux.com/apple-agx-gpu-driver - The Nova GPU driver for NVIDIA GPUs - https://rust-for-linux.com/nova-gpu-driver https://rust-for-linux.com/nova-gpu-driver - The Tyr GPU driver for Arm Mali GPUs - https://rust-for-linux.com/tyr-gpu-driver https://rust-for-linux.com/tyr-gpu-driver I suspect the first one of those to be actually used in production will be the Tyr driver, especially since Google's part of it and they'll probably want to deploy it on Android, but for the desktop (and server!) Linux use-case, the Nova driver is likely to be the major one.
- kaluga 10mo ago[dead]
- danielktdoranie 10mo ago[flagged]
- shevy-java 10mo agoSo what is written in Rust so far therein?
- dxroshan 10mo agoMostly GPU drivers
- ramon156 10mo agoRightfully so, its probably the place where you'll het most ROI
- weebull 10mo agoI don't understand why. Working with hardware you're going to have to do various things with `unsafe`. Interfacing to C (the rest of the kernel) you'll have to be using `unsafe`. In my mind, the reasoning for rust in this situation seems flawed.
- encom 10mo ago[flagged]
- timeon 10mo agoWhat was the question? I saw only one assumption.
- maccard 10mo agoI’ve done a decent amount of low level code - (never written a driver but I’m still young). The vast majority of it can be safe, and call into unsafe wrapped when needed. My experience is that a very very small amount of stuff actually needs unsafe and the only reason the unsafe C code is used is because it’s possible not because it’s necessary.
- 10mo ago
- hexo 10mo agoAnd we're cooked.
- fithisux 10mo agoRust in the kernel is a self-fulfilling prophecy.
- fithisux 10mo agoBy the way, M$$$ has already making the transition of its driver writing in Rust https://github.com/microsoft/windows-drivers-rs https://github.com/microsoft/windows-drivers-rs maybe this will be good for the rest of the kernels, IllumOS/HaikuOS/ReactOS. maybe
- singularity2001 10mo agoCompletely tangential but it would be nice if could 'natively' run wasm.
- viraptor 10mo agoYou can do this: https://gist.github.com/jprendes/64d2625912d6b67383c02422727a33a0 https://gist.github.com/jprendes/64d2625912d6b67383c02422727... (one of the solutions, there's a few better approaches)
- EverydayBalloon 10mo ago[dead]
- rzerowan 10mo agoHmm seeing as this looks to be the path forward as far as inkernel Linux drivers are concerned , adnfor BSDs like FreeBSD that port said drivers to their own kernel. Are we going to see the same oxidation of the BSD's or resistance and bifurcation.
- lafalce 10mo ago[dead]
- amelius 10mo agoThat's what you get with slippery slopes.
- stackedinserter 10mo agoWhy do Rust developers create so much drama everywhere? "Rewrite everything to Rust", "Rust is better than X" in all threads related to other languages, "how do you know it's safe if you don't use Holy Glorious Rust". I'm genuinely not trolling, and Rust is okay, but only Rust acolytes exhibit this behaviour.
- Eikon 10mo agoI'm mostly interested in being able to interact with the vfs and build a 9p rust client (in addition to the current v9fs) to support my 9p server [0]. Does anyone know what's the current state / what is the current timeline for something like this to be feasible? [0] https://github.com/Barre/ZeroFS https://github.com/Barre/ZeroFS
- russdill 10mo agoIf you just want to play https://github.com/cberner/fuser https://github.com/cberner/fuser
- ls-a 10mo agoI never used linux because it was built using C++. Never have I cared what language the product was built it. The Rust community however wants you to use a product just because it's implemented in Rust, or atleast as one of the selling points. For that reason I decided to avoid any product that advertises using Rust as a selling point, as much as I can. Was planning to switch from Mac to a Linux machine, not anymore, I'm happily upgrading my mac.
- jjice 10mo agoIt's an optional tool that can be used to implement drivers now, not forced. If you don't like the idea of another language being supported for implementing a subset of kernel modules, I don't think you wouldn't enjoyed having a Linux machine anyways.
- ls-a 10mo agoThat's not the case. It's using Rust as a selling point. All the noise around using Rust is marketing. The fact that you think linux machines are enjoyed by only a specific group of people makes me happier with my choice
- jjice 10mo ago> That's not the case. It's using Rust as a selling point "Rust as a selling point" was a big thing in 2018-2022ish. You see it a lot less of the "written in Rust" in HN headlines these days. Some people were very excited about Rust early on. What feels more common today are people who unnecessarily hate Rust because they saw too much of this hype and they (justifiably) got annoyed by it. If there is a new, optional language to be added to Linux Kernel development, Rust makes sense. It's a low level, performant, and safe language. Introducing it for driver development has almost no impact on 99% of users, except maybe it'll safe them a memory related bug fix patch having to be installed at some point. Is Rust the "selling point" here, or is the potential to avoid an entire class of bugs the selling point? > The fact that you think linux machines are enjoyed by only a specific group of people makes me happier with my choice If by "specific group of people" you mean "people who will refuse to use an OS based on the implementation language(s)", then I guess so. I don't mean to be rude (although it reads like it, apologies), but I just think that you're coming at this from a perspective of malice instead of what the goal was, which was to reduce bugs in kernel drivers, and not to pimp Rust as a programming language by getting it into a large software project.
- jlrubin 10mo ago@dang title has been changed to "The (successful) end of the kernel Rust experiment", since there were complaints in the articles comments from the committee members that that was a sensationalization of what actually happened.
- jwatte 10mo ago"Linux kernel devs tried Rust in the kernel -- you won't BELIEVE the reaction!"
- cratermoon 10mo agoOne weird trick kernel developers HATE
- ls-a 10mo agoUse linux because it now has Rust kernels. Great marketing
- 9rx 10mo agoIsn't successful already implied? Unsuccessful experiments have no end unless motivation to keep trying runs out — but Rust seems to have no end to motivation behind it. Besides, if it were to ever reach the point of there being no remaining motivation, there would be no remaining motivation for those who have given up to announce that they have given up, so we'd never see the headline to begin with.
- dang 10mo agoWe've done unsuccessful experiments on HN over the years, in the sense that they failed to achieve anything we'd hoped for and caused enough damage that we had to call them off.
- 9rx 10mo agoIsn't that ultimately a loss of motivation? With enough buy in there would be a lot of reason to keep iterating towards the desired outcome despite any setbacks. That is the nature of experiments, after all. Things going horribly wrong while you are in the iteration process is an expected part of experimentation. Imagine a world where the Rust experiment hand't been going well. There is absolutely nothing stopping someone from keeping at it to prove why Rust should be there. The experiment can always live as long as someone wants to keep working on it. Experiments fundamentally can only end when successful, or when everyone gives up (leaving nobody to make the announcement). That said, consider me interested to read the announcements HN has about those abandoned experiments. Where should I look to find them?
- sshadmand 10mo agoI haven't had time to experiment with it yet. How is agent directed development doing with Rust 0-to-1 an 1-inf. product gen?
- RustSupremacist 10mo ago[flagged]
- whytevuhuni 10mo ago> The damage from the correction that comes later will do so much harm. Which part here is misinformation? Do you know something we, or the author, does not? I'm quite curious what that might be.
- aw1621107 10mo agoThis comment appears to be a near-duplicate of a previously posted comment (https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=46214065 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=46214065). The addition of the last sentence is the only real difference.
- qwm 10mo agoWhat does this practically mean for Linux? Will core parts of it depend on Rust? How closely linked are drivers? Rust in Linux always worried me because there is currently only one stable backend (LLVM) and only one compiler implementation that doesn't yet have a spec. I like that you can at least compile Linux with Clang and GCC, but there aren't even two options for Rust right now.
- RustSupremacist 10mo ago[flagged]
- tomhow 10mo agoMany of your comments seem to be charged meta-commentary about posts and threads. If you want to participate on HN, please do so as it's intended: by discussing the topics in a curious, conversational way. If other users are engaging in ideological battle, they are breaking the guidelines and you are welcome to flag their comments and email us (hn@ycombinator.com) to report them. If a post is bad for HN, you can flag it and email us explaining why. We can and do routinely take action against abuse or manipulation on HN when we know about it. But this kind of "something needs to be done" proclamation, without any engagement with the moderators or actionable suggestions, amounts to nothing more than empty venting, which can only drag this place downwards. Please make an effort to observe the guidelines if you want to participate here. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
- _jzlw 10mo ago[flagged]