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Electric cars produce less brake dust pollution than combustion-engine cars
Report: https://www.eiturbanmobility.eu/knowledge-hub/mastering-mobility-with-non-exhaust-emissions/ https://www.eiturbanmobility.eu/knowledge-hub/mastering-mobi...
- gregorvand 1y agoDoes this apply to fixies then as well? I might reignite my use of one in a city vs traditional bike if so ...!
- Aachen 1y agoFixed-gear bicycles, is apparently what a "fixie" is for anyone else wondering
- more_corn 1y agoDue to regenerative braking. Also, obviously.
- brtkwr 1y agoAn an EV owner, I can testify that the tyre wear more than makes up for the reduction in brake dust. I’ve had to change tyres every 10K miles.
- bryanlarsen 1y agoWe went 70,000 km on our first set.
- tjkrusinski 1y agoAre you constantly accelerating quickly? Haven't had this experience.
- thatwasunusual 1y agoFrom the article: > "Even when summing up emissions from tires, brakes, and road wear, BEVs produce 38% less particulate pollution than gas-powered cars before even considering their lack of tailpipe emissions."
- jayd16 1y agoPresumably this is a joke. Mine lasted 5 years, 50k miles.
- jader201 1y agoNo, it’s not a joke. EVs are heavier vehicles, and it’s common for EV owners to have to change tires much more frequently. https://www.cars.com/articles/do-evs-wear-through-tires-more-quickly-than-gasoline-cars-481973/ https://www.cars.com/articles/do-evs-wear-through-tires-more...
- jeffbee 1y agoIt's only common because Tesla is popular. Other brands put reasonable tires on.
- jader201 1y agoAnecdotally, I own a Kia EV6, and had to get new tires within two years, under 20k miles. I leave it in eco mode, so acceleration is nerfed, too. We’ll see how long the new set of Michelin Defenders last.
- jeffbee 1y agoSome models of the EV6 come with Pilot Sport 4S tires which is absurd.
- YZF 1y agoI have a model 3 and still running my original set of summer and set of winter tires. 6+ years. I just don't put pedal to metal every time I accelerate.
- loeg 1y agoThe tires that came on my Kia EV9 are bad in several dimensions (Kumho Crugen HP71) -- poor longevity, poor winter performance. People seem to get 15-20,000 miles out of them. (I replaced them with CrossClimate2s.)
- rapsey 1y agoDo you accelerate with full power every time or something?
- ghushn3 1y agoWhat are you doing to your tires that they only last 10k miles? I think that might be a driver error issue, because my EV (a heavier sedan) basically never needed tire replacement barring me running over a screw or something.
- brtkwr 1y agoJust normal driving, it wasn’t quite so bad on our previous car which was a Nissan Leaf (with 30kWh battery) but our current Kia Niro just has a lot bigger batter (64kWh) and it is a lot heavier I suppose, the tyres just don’t seem to last as long. I’m pretty sure I’m using summer tyres all year round (I live in the UK) this was recommended by the dealer
- HPsquared 1y agoSome tyre compounds wear a lot faster than others (though often with better grip). I wonder if that's contributing. The other thing is poor alignment (especially toe settings) which cause the tyres to fight each other constantly. It can be a very small difference, almost imperceptible but still accelerate the wear. 10k miles is very short for a tyre. Often you can tell a lot from the tyre temperature after a drive: if they're getting very warm, it can indicate problems, e.g. if one axle has much warmer tyres than the other (hard to give an objective standard on that, though, so many factors)
- thedougd 1y agoAren’t higher speed rated tires softer? Maybe try swapping for a lower speed rating unless they plan on driving it at extreme speeds.
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- relaxing 1y agoEV owners aren’t exactly rare around these parts. Neither are people who drive cars of a similar weight, such as midsize SUVs. There’s no good reason why you should be changing your tires at 10k miles.
- madaxe_again 1y agoWhen you can see interleave that’s a good reason to change your tyres. My stock tyres on a model Y lasted 11,000km - but my daily drive is a tortured ribbon of tarmac with nothing but corners.
- relaxing 1y agoI don’t know what interleave means in your country but the way to measure tire wear is replace when tread depth gets below 1.6 mm. Next time get tires with a 50k mile warranty, like Pirelli Scorpions.
- madaxe_again 1y agoInterleave is the woven metal below the rubber.
- barbazoo 1y agoThis is not at all my experience after 2.5 years and 20,000km. It’s kinda obvious that it’s completely up to the driver.
- altairprime 1y agoRivian?
- xeonmc 1y agoIf you're on a Tesla, it might be because of incorrectly set cambers out of the factory: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O1kdxm5cKfA https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O1kdxm5cKfA
- i80and 1y agoThere is something seriously wrong with your tires if that's actually the case. I drive a pretty heavy EV myself (an AWD ID.4) and your wear is ludicrous.
- irjustin 1y agoHow is tire wear related to the method of power? It could be a steam engine for all it mattered. Accelerating and decelerating, in regards to the tire, don't care what is causing the force.
- dgemm 1y agoIt's related to vehicle weight, electric cars can be significantly heavier.
- ddispaltro 1y agoMy understanding is a model X is 20% heavier than a similar size mid-range suv like a telluride, which I would consider the same size SUV. The Model X's curb weight ranges from 5,148 lbs to 5,531 lbs, while the Telluride's curb weight falls between 4,112 lbs and 4,482 lbs.
- loeg 1y agoModel X is somewhat smaller than a Telluride, but close enough.
- ccc3 1y agoMass. Electric cars are much heavier. F=ma.
- jaggederest 1y agoFor tire degradation I believe it's actually something like the 4th power of the mass, same as for roads.
- potato3732842 1y agoThe tire isn't constant like a road is though. Tires intended for bigger heavier vehicles get harder rubbers.
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- neilwilson 1y agoThat’s very likely due to the tyres having less tread depth - a common trick with EV tyres to reduce rolling resistance. Michelins are the main culprit. Of course the tyre companies love that little trick as they can pretend they are being green while selling more tyres. Always check how much tyre you’re buying
- breakyerself 1y agoI have a 2019 model 3. 200,000 miles. I'm about on my 3rd set of tires.
- linotype 1y agoAre you racing? I haven’t had to change our tires on our EV for 30k miles (we just hit that on the odometer; these are dealer tires).
- lokar 1y agoThere are three things at play here: - evs have a reputation for fast acceleration, and many drivers use it. More wear. - evs are heavy due to large batteries trying to match ICE range. More wear. - evs often come with low friction tires to improve range, they wear faster The second two issues should gradually go away as battery (and charging) tech improves.
- idiotsecant 1y agoLow friction tires wear slower, not faster, on account of being ... Low friction. Friction is what wears tires.
- pengaru 1y ago> Low friction tires wear slower, not faster, on account of being ... Low friction. Friction is what wears tires. They're not low friction tires, they're low rolling resistance tires. Friction relates to the grip, rolling resistance relates to the heat generated by the deformation of the tire. A less compliant, often narrower tire may wear faster than a more compliant wider one. It depends. "Tyres account for about a fifth of the energy required to power a car. They provide friction, so that the vehicle can grip the road, but some of the power supplied to the tyres is then lost as heat. Indeed, Michelin, a French tyremaker, estimates that this “rolling resistance” accounts for 4% of the world's carbon-dioxide emissions. Tyre designers have therefore sought to improve fuel economy by reducing rolling resistance. However, this not only reduces a tyre's ability to grip, making drivers take corners sideways, it also wears out the tyres more rapidly." from: https://www.economist.com/technology-quarterly/2009/12/02/rolling-out-the-changes https://www.economist.com/technology-quarterly/2009/12/02/ro... without login: https://archive.is/TiIUk https://archive.is/TiIUk
- potato3732842 1y ago>They're not low friction tires, they're low rolling resistance tires. Those two attributes are pretty decently tied together, can't get one attribute maxed out without a solid showing of the other.
- webprofusion 1y agoMine did more than 25,000, just get better tyres. The basic premise is that EVs are heavier and have more torque than average cars, but it's a 20% difference in real life, so your tyres may last 20% less.
- graemep 1y agoIs it a linear relationship? I know road damage is far higher (fourth power of weight) so maybe wear on tires is also worse than linear? heavier vehicles are also worse in many other ways (e.g. less safe for pedestrians, require more space for parking,...) and we really should be encouraging smaller vehicles.
- dyauspitr 1y agoDon’t accelerate like a maniac.
- jillesvangurp 1y agoSwitch tire brand and type or get some advice. Whatever you are currently getting isn't the right tire for your car, obviously. You should be seeing much longer lives for your tires. Even with an EV. So, something is off. And tires of course aren't created equally. There are many different types of tires and they are optimized for different circumstances. If you mismatch your tires to e.g. weather conditions, you are going to have issues. Not just with EVs, but with any car.
- sjducb 1y agoAgreed parent needs to get advice from 2/3 different tyre shops. Changing tyres every 10k means something is wrong.
- infecto 1y agoThat or just slow down. I swear 90% of the people that complain of tire wear drive oblivious and are flooring it after every stop. Even a Kia Beri which what the parent has, has more kick than a ICE.
- sjducb 1y agoMaybe, I think the tyre shop is encouraging premature tyre changes. My local tyre shop recommends changing the tyres at 3.9mm. The tyre’s data sheet says it’s ok down to 1.6mm. You’re wasting 2.3mm of tyre, which is 30% of the life of the tyre.
- snowe2010 1y agoThat’s not normal. You’re either doing something incredibly wrong or you’re changing your tires when you don’t need to.
- thanhhaimai 1y agoI'm not sure I can agree with this. I have 2 EVs, and the tire looks almost brand new after like 10k miles. I think the driving habits matter more than whether the car is EV or not.
- loeg 1y agoIt's probably the specific tire being awful, or alignment.
- yreg 1y agoI have 42k km / 26k miles on the tires Tesla equipped me with and they are in good condition.
- mpyne 1y agoI own one EV, at 40k miles, and have had to change the tires only once so far, and even that was more because of damage to one that required replacement than due to excessive tire wear. I can vouch for the very low brake pad usage as well.
- reissbaker 1y agoThe article says that even including tire and road wear, EVs generate 38% less particulate pollution than ICE cars before considering the lack of tailpipe emissions.
- labster 1y agoBut tires are black, and black carbon has additional climate effects — even once the aerosol lands, it can still have effects like black carbon on snow.
- ZeroGravitas 1y agoOn that topic, Norwegians have been reporting that the piles of snow at the sides of their roads are noticeable cleaner since EV adoption took off.
- mort96 1y agoIt's not like brake dust is white...
- infecto 1y agoGuess what comes out of petrol and diesel exhaust? Guess what color brake dust is. I guarantee the EV is going to be a lot cleaner.
- onlyrealcuzzo 1y agoWonder what that ratio will be when battery tech advances enough that BEVs weigh the same as, and eventually less than, ICE cars.
- djrj477dhsnv 1y ago> An an EV owner, I can testify that the tyre wear more than makes up for the reduction in brake dust How could you possibly measure that just from your personal experience? Sounds more like a wild guess that is in contradiction with actual studies.
- potato3732842 1y ago>How could you possibly measure that just from your personal experience? Simple napkin math by comparing longevity of parts with volume of parts consumed.
- p_j_w 1y agoSure, but your personal experience could very easily be on the higher end of the distribution. You simply CANT confirm something like that based on personal experience. Either your personal experience lines up with some statistical fact or it doesn’t, either way, without the proper statistical context it’s borderline useless.
- potato3732842 1y agoSure, but if the napkin math spits out results orders of magnitude higher than reasonable personal variance then you're still on the way to a decent answer. FWIW I think the qualitative difference between tire and brake dust is going to mean a lot more than individual variance.
- 01100011 1y agoI wonder if you got unlucky with tires. Seems some mfgs are playing with new recipes and eco friendly ingredients causing the tires to dramatically miss their stated lifetime. My last tires were Michelin Defender somethings from Costco and they lasted about half the expected mileage even with regular rotation and proper inflation.
- cbeach 1y agoI think there might be something peculiar about the driving or environment. I have put 50,000 miles on my EV over the course of a few years and only changed the tires twice in that time. The car is MOT-tested every year so I have precise measurements of tread.
- originalvichy 1y agoYou are an anomaly. The overwhelming majority of EV drivers say their tyres last very long.
- bluedino 1y agoI was just reading an article where an electric car had the original brakes on it for 250k miles
- infecto 1y agoI am firmly in the camp that problems like these have less to do with being an EV and more to do with one of the following: 1) Aggressive driving which is easier to do in a number of EVs due to instant torque. 2) tire compound, a lot of oem tires are soft 3) something wrong with the cars drivetrain or suspension. 10k is comically low, my model y oem tires lasted to 30k before tread depth passed the safety threshold. I also keep it in chill mode.
- chasebank 1y agoI went to get new tires on my truck last month. 3 of the 5 bays at the tire shop had teslas getting new shoes. I asked the shop owner and he said EVs eat tires. Like 9-12 months max lifespan, great for business. I couldn't believe it but I've always heard there's exponential wear on tires relative to weight.
- homefree 1y agoDepends how you drive - I change my teslas tires every 50k miles, it takes that long to wear out.
- ab_testing 1y agoHave heard the same that Teslas eat tires like crazy. But why is that where their weight is comparable to a regular minivan. Is it due to the fast acceleration. If so can tire life be extended if the user is gentle on the accelerometer from zero.
- justinholt 1y agoAcceleration combined with the style many EV manufacturers chose. Lots of “sporty” looks leaning on large rims with low profile tires.
- bityard 1y agoAlmost all tire wear comes from accelerating and decelerating. Some from turning and cornering. Basically anytime you are asking them to stick to the road when the car's velocity is changing. Just coasting in a straight line does not cause any significant wear, regardless of weight. (Unless the tires are grossly under-inflated.) EVs eat tires when people drive them like they're on a race track, which is most of the time.
- nostrademons 1y agoThis doesn't make sense. A Tesla weighs about as much as an SUV. We don't hear about SUVs eating tires. If Teslas specifically are in the tire shop more, perhaps it's that Teslas ship with shitty tires. I've heard of a number of car makes that ship with really fragile OEM tires as a way to get you back into the shop for service.
- stephen_g 1y agoGood to have more data points and evidence, but this seems extremely well established by now? Zero tailpipe emissions, drastically removed brake dust, slightly higher tire wear (due to weight), but much better overall than ICE.
- 3eb7988a1663 1y agoI am just excited because the more EVs mean fewer idiots in hot rods running without mufflers.
- oaiey 1y agoI think these will switch last and will found new opportunities to annoy you once switched.
- potato3732842 1y agoExactly. What people really hate are loud young people from lower class than them backgrounds. Civics with stupid exhausts are just an example implementation of that. They'll just find something else to hate if you remove that implementation.
- goda90 1y agoWhen loud engine noises cut through my neighborhood from blocks away, I'm not thinking about the age or class of the person driving the vehicle. I'm thinking about how they're a jerk for modifying their car to be louder and intentionally revving their engine to create noise. If an old billionaire decided to make their private jet louder and then buzzed over my neighborhood, I'd be pissed as well.
- jajko 1y agoWell there are new classes of idiots I see pretty frequently - a typical tesla driver going 90 in 120 region of highway without any reason, presumably saving last bits of battery (that has at least some rationale, if they do it due to ie fear then they should not be driving or having license). Over say 50km part of highway, maybe 2000 cars need to overtake such almost stationary object (to regular traffic which generally moves exactly at the speed limit). Fine if you have 3+ lanes, but most highways in Europe have 2 only. Then you have all the trucks, buses and rest of traffic trying to overtake via that 1 free lane, which in heavier (but still cca smooth) traffic will create a massive moving traffic jam immediately. If I didn't see this every other day (and for some reasons its 90% tesla drivers where I live and rest is caravans) I wouldn't believe it to be so common, but it is. Summer now makes it even worse with all holiday drivers.
- rayiner 1y agoWe should obviously ban combustion engine cars, at least starting with cities. I can’t think of a single clearer win for air quality.
- jjayj 1y agoI would love to have gone electric (bought a car in September) but I rent and don't have any way to charge at my residence. How do we solve the renters-that-cant-charge-their-cars problem?
- barbazoo 1y agoAnd everyone you ask has a slightly different situation so no generic solution does it. We’ll have to spend some money and retrofit at least where possible. We’ll need free level 2 chargers wherever people congregate. And folks will probably have to adapt their expectation toward mobility in a way. Things change.
- Joel_Mckay 1y agoAll our local Tesla drivers park their cars partially blocking the alleyway each evening. They can't make it into their garages on the narrow road, and there are no curb side plugs in the front (NEC safety rules.) Funny until the Garbage truck rage mashes the horn at 6am... lol =3
- stouset 1y agoPublic EV chargers are pretty widespread nowadays. Not as much as gas chargers obviously, but for most people in the country if you don't have a way to charge at home it's not fundamentally that different from not having a gas pump at your house. Plus, most people can charge at home with an extension cord. It's not particularly fast, but you should be able to get 4-5 miles an hour. In the worst case scenario where you can only charge at home and can only charge for 10 hours overnight, that's still 40 miles of driving which is enough for a lot of commuters. Even if it falls short—again—you can use public chargers. Lastly, eliminating the sale of ICE cars will be a pretty rapid forcing function on the deployment of EV chargers. Still, I'd be all for locations that ban combustion engines mandating that landlords provide EV charging facilities.
- aetherspawn 1y agoI pick up a bad screw every year from careless Ute drivers with leaky toolboxes and have to throw 1-2 tyres in the bin. Tyre wear isn't that important to me.
- defrost 1y ago> and have to throw 1-2 tyres in the bin. That's your choice. We jack the car, pull the wheel, extract the screws, and use a tyre plug kit. Howto repair tubeless tyres with plugs: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nCwWPlaghfs https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nCwWPlaghfs Tyres with inner tubes can also be repaired, that's slightly more involved.
- MindSpunk 1y agodepends where the puncture is. too close to the sidewall and you have to bin them. if they've already been plugged once and theu get another puncture its off to the bin.
- defrost 1y ago> if they've already been plugged once and theu get another puncture its off to the bin. Again, that's your personal choice. We've got off road and on road tyres we still use with four to five tyre plugs in them that have lasted a few years since their last puncture. I'm in non urban Australia and have cars actively used with > 500,000 km on the clock. We were raised to maintain gear; be it cars, trucks, aircraft, excavators, bob cats, etc.
- MindSpunk 1y agoIt's a choice in so much as I would be gambling against how likely I am to get knocked back at a safety inspection for having plugs on the side wall. I'm in urban NSW and whether I'd get by a safety inspection would be a gamble on how particular the mechanic is. One of the mechanics I go to warned me about a single slightly cloudy headlight for my next inspection, which is comical compared to some of the cars I've seen on the roads in Sydney. I'm sure he'd be a big fan of those tyres. Understandable if you're rural though.
- senectus1 1y agolol no shit sherlock. I've owned a Pirus (hybrid), Camry Hybrid and now a Rav4 Hybrid plus a MG4 EV. The rav and MG4 are too new to count, but the other two I owned for about 10-13 years each.. we NEVER needed to change the brake pads. Not once. If you're having to change the brake pads on a car like this, you're a leadfoot with no core strength issues :-P
- nine_k 1y agoI suppose the same should apply to hybrid cars, which outnumber pure EVs significantly [1]. The effect comes from converting the kinetic energy back to the battery charge via generation instead of wasting it via friction, which is the whole point of hybrids. [1]: https://www.consumeraffairs.com/automotive/how-many-electric-cars-are-in-the-us.html https://www.consumeraffairs.com/automotive/how-many-electric...
- frollogaston 1y agoAnd manual transmission cars kinda, though the energy is still wasted of course
- OptionOfT 1y agoDepends on how you drive. I never engine braked on my manual. Brakes are easy to replace. Clutches are not.
- eptcyka 1y agoYou need not burn your clutch to engine break.
- hassaanr 1y agoengine braking does not have any effect on the clutch, other than while downshifting, which if you're blipping/rev-matching has practically no effect
- isoprophlex 1y agoExactly, if your clutch suffers abuse when you are shifting gears (unless you're trying to aggressively accelerate of course) you need to rethink what you're doing. Not saying it's smart but when predictably decelerating on the highway I sometimes shift gears by rev matching and changing without even touching the clutch, for the fun of it.
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- brikym 1y agoHeavier cars with more torque at the wheels means more tyre dust.
- SV_BubbleTime 1y agoWho knew that a vehicle with two brake systems would use the traditional one less than vehicles with only that type!?
- DangitBobby 1y agoYou'd be surprised at what people don't know.
- gnarlouse 1y agoBut they burn through tires much faster due to the battery packs. All that tire friction has to go somewhere right?
- due-rr 1y agoThey mention that in the article. It’s not enough to offset the higher break wear.
- originalvichy 1y agoThis can also be offset by better traction control. EV engines respond to it much faster.
- kingstnap 1y agoEVs don't burn through tires quickly, they just kept you burn through tires quickly. Tire wear is an extremely strong function of torque. If you accelerate and decelerate calmly then the stiff tires they put on EVs will last a long time. A lot of people drive EVs extremely aggressively because the motor provides a ton of instant torque and they find it fun.
- gnarlouse 1y agoIdk, the thought of 40k miles per tire being the *high end* (maybe my figures are wrong) signals that vehicle weight despite controlled acceleration is the problem
- mjevans 1y agoBan the stop and go hell of rush hour. Cars rolling at freeway speed without stopping pollute way less than drivers stuck behind idiots who can't just go forward down the road at the speed limit. The human suffering and ecological impact reduced if only there would be a focus on enforcing speed minimums...
- matsemann 1y agoIt's just traffic. The arrogance of thinking everyone else is the problem is kinda weird. You're just as responsible for the congestion and pollution.
- potato3732842 1y agoQuality of operation absolutely is a factor in the equation. The overall results seem to get dragged down to the lowest common denominator. Something like a park-and-ride lot after an arrival cleans out way faster/better than a school despite both more than saturating whatever their entry onto the main road is.
- dontlaugh 1y agoI assume by that you mean provide good and cheap public transportation so people no longer have to drive.
- djrj477dhsnv 1y agoEven if everyone drove optimally, every road is going to reach a capacity where its physically impossible to maintain a certain speed. It's similar to network congestion. Mandating that everyone drive faster won't solve anything.
- mjevans 1y agoIt would reduce the duration of rush hour... once the least skilled drivers were improved or removed from the pool. I do agree it wouldn't solve a complete lack of capacity, civic planning, transportation infrastructure. Including lack of busses that travel frequently enough and where people want to go.
- roschdal 1y agoSo let's make cleaner brakes for combustion-engine cars.
- sitkack 1y ago55k miles on my Leaf. Not even halfway through the first set of brake pads. I cannot say the same thing about the tires.
- bob1029 1y ago> alluding to the black discolorations on alloy wheels There are ceramic brakes that produce very little particulate matter by comparison to semi-metallic. The only downside is performance can degrade more in extreme driving conditions (sustained racing with heavy braking). For a daily driver, it's a quieter and cleaner material.
- apichat 1y ago> The EIT Urban Mobility report also refers to the bigger picture: moving commuters out of private cars and into public transport, cycling, or walking can achieve up to five times more reduction in non-exhaust emissions than individual electrification. And this is just one the many nuisances produce by cars. Electric cars do not massively reduce almost any of the pollution produced by cars. We have to reduce the automobile fleet by at least 95% to solve all the nuisances produces by cars.
- simonebrunozzi 1y agoA well known fact by Brembo, one of the biggest brakes producers in the world, which has been working for years to find new products and new markets, preparing for the time when a lot more EVs will be on the road.
- gmm1990 1y agoI'd think they'd make more money on the bigger brakes needed for evs with higher weights than they'd lose on the brake pad replacements.
- kazinator 1y agoBrake pads are small parts that last for years. It is nothing compared to the number of tankfuls of gas that an ICE car goes through over the lifetime of its brakes. This is like the March of Dimes syndrome. We got rid of exhaust with electric cars, but the cars-are-bad activists continue to exist and need something to gripe about.
- PeterStuer 1y agoOn my non EV car I seldom use the break unless in an emergency or I have to come to a full stop. I always use the cruise control to decelerate and accelerate. Anyone else has that habit?
- angulardragon03 1y ago… how do you think the cruise control decelerates you? Is this a troll post?
- rcMgD2BwE72F 1y agoRegen
- rkomorn 1y agoMaybe this is different on cars newer than 2015 but I've never felt cruise control apply brakes. At most, I've felt it shift down (on an automatic, obviously) to use engine braking while it was trying to reduce speed going downhill. Any other time, it's only slowed down by coasting.
- ceejayoz 1y agoIt lets off the accelerator to reduce speed to the new setting, just like a human would.
- PeterStuer 1y agoAt least on the cars I had over the years, it does not apply the brakes. Depending on how far it is from the target, it lets of the trottle and it uses engine breaking.
- ukshariapatrol 1y ago[dead]
- sub7 1y agoHas anyone modeled how much excess cement and asphalt pollution is generated by having a tiny car weigh as much as a giant truck? Or the water usage of increased lithium mining? EVs are like an inferior product being shoved down everyone's throat when consumer cars don't even account for the most emissions globally.
- DataDaemon 1y agocontinuation of EV propaganda, which are much heavier cars.
- oblio 1y agoThey'll get lighter as battery tech progresses. The first Li-Ion battery revolution has already happened, it's just not evenly distributed. https://www.androidpolice.com/what-are-silicon-carbon-batteries-big-deal-for-smartphones/ https://www.androidpolice.com/what-are-silicon-carbon-batter... And that's before we get into stuff like solid state batteries. 10 years from now we'll probably have battery packs which are at least 20% lighter, available in some mid-range vehicles.
- rcMgD2BwE72F 1y agoCurb weight of a Tesla Model (Long Range) is only 9% over a comparable BMW 3 Series. That's nothing compared to all the savings (tail pipes emissions, break dust, noise, ICE maintenance issues…). And we're just getting started with battery chemistries and renewables energy. This can only get better.
- graemep 1y ago> Curb weight of a Tesla Model (Long Range) is only 9% over a comparable BMW 3 Series. Which means 40% more road maintenance. > And we're just getting started with battery chemistries and renewables energy. This can only get better. Which implies it is better to delay switching until we have better batteries
- rcMgD2BwE72F 1y ago>Which implies it is better to delay switching until we have better batteries Let's discard everything but road maintenance? No thanks. https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/co2-mitigation-15c https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/co2-mitigation-15c
- graemep 1y ago
- philipallstar 1y ago> Gains, however, are not equitable. Low-income neighborhoods, which often endure the highest pollution impacts, have seen slower EV uptake, demonstrating the necessity of access to clean transport on an equitable basis. Air quality tier list: S-tier: African/American/Australasian countries that were never discovered by the West, and have no energy sources (hypothetical) B-tier: Western countries and similar (e.g. Japan), and those who've had a resource that they've traded for Western advances (e.g. Asia/Middle East) that can afford nuclear and renewables D-tier: Sub-Saharan African/South American countries that now have energy needs but are burning coal or diesel to meet them
- newsclues 1y agoEVs tend to be heavier that ICE vehicles, I’m skeptical of this conclusion. I’m not sure how you get more tire wear but less brake dust.
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- Aachen 1y agoRegenerative braking (i.e. magnets), as mentioned in the top comments? I'm not sure I understand the question
- deleted 1y ago[deleted]
- alliao 1y agothe brake needs a brand new design for EV... as of now it's used so little I kind of fear when I need it it's not going to be performant. It's not simply not engineered for current EV use case where it's touched every once in a while, I think it can go weeks without being used. However manufacturers don't have any incentive to blend it with regen from time to time, as to get it up to temperature requires a LOT of braking, which reduces the mileage/efficiency. Even Volvo recently had a recall[1] over regen braking bug, it looks like brake-by-wire system where software have control over blending brake, and decides in this case to not engage physical brakes at all even when user input suggests more braking. We just need a new brake system that can stay performant without being used at all for a long time and won't rust or jam [1] https://www.caranddriver.com/news/a65464238/volvo-brake-failure-warning-recall/ https://www.caranddriver.com/news/a65464238/volvo-brake-fail...
- AngryData 1y agoThat is actually one reason some companies are trying to move back to all drum brakes for EVs. The drum protects the brakes from water, rust, and debri fairly well and is far more reliable when not used as often. The only real obstacle is car companies having spent the last few decades focusing all their braking and traction control features on disc brakes so they need to be reimplemented for use in drums. And really most consumer vehicles never should have stopped using drum brakes, they are better for everything except high performance racing/heat dissipation, but disc brakes were used for sales/marketing because race cars use them, and most all the improvements for brake systems started with racing so were initially and primarily designed for use with discs.
- potato3732842 1y agoThis comment comes across a lot like the fanboys screeching about how their 1985 or 91 Toyota had a "nice" interior as if the most rattle prone 2009 GM work truck interior isn't better in every way just as a result of sheer cumulative progress. Like if you actually put A beside B and look at them without the rose tinted veneer of nostalgia it's not even a comparison. Rusty rarely exercised drum brakes have a ton of failure modes that result in severely degraded or nonexistent performance that the average motorist probably wouldn't care about until they really need the brakes and they don't all work well enough. The heat capacity of drums is pretty easily made noticeable, not "exceeded" to the point of substantially reduced capacity, but noticeable from the driver's seat in just a few good stops in high ambient temps (think like stop and go light to light in somewhere like DC or Miami) or one decent hill. Yeah you can polish the turd with fancy fins and materials and airflow, etc. but discs are just so much better per dollar and per pound. Most of the problems discs have are NVH and rotor problems that are easily solved for intermittent/lesser use with the simple use of better alloys (Dexter even makes stainless for boat trailers, which are probably the ultimate example of extreme intermittent usage, so it's not like this is groundbreaking). Dominant slider pin designs these days are highly optimized for performance/NVH at the expense of longevity but there's an entire catalog of historical designs that one could easily conclude have better tradeoffs for less demanding usage.
- bartread 1y agoIn four years of plug-in hybrid ownership, and maybe 50k miles, I haven’t even had to replace pads, and the car wasn’t new when I bought it. I even commented on the longevity at the dealership the last time I took it for a service, and they said they see it a lot with hybrids. The regen braking really does make a huge difference.
- guywithahat 1y agoIs 50k a lot? I drove my ford fiesta 120k without changing the pads. I'm certain the motor helps, but assuming it's a relatively lightweight vehicle I don't think you should be changing pads that much unless you're an aggressive driver
- bartread 1y ago> aggressive driver Hi. Although I’d call it spirited rather than aggressive. I’m not out to intimidate people or drive dangerously: but when I have the space and time I enjoy throwing a car around.
- steveBK123 1y agoYes this is why EV brake pads last 2-3 times more miles. They aren’t being used due to the regen braking.
- Karawebnetwork 1y agoI wonder how does this compare with engine braking. Many people in the comment section are surprised that their EV's pads are lasting up to 4 years yet as someone who always drove manual cars and who leverages engine braking this sound like a normal length.
- steveBK123 1y agoNot sure but very few cars are sold with manuals anymore especially in US. Most people here under 40 or even 50 don’t know how to drive one.
- hamaspiker 1y ago[dead]
- incomingpain 1y agoI quite rarely actually use my brakes. Regen for the win!
- StumpChunkman 1y agoOn a meta note, I come to HN for the typically more informed and sometimes expert takes on the issues and articles that surface here, especially for tech related news. It's interesting how even this site is not insulated from some absolutely insane misinformation about EV's that starts to show up in the comments whenever they are brought up. I mean, just look at how many comments this article about brake dust has generated.
- MetaWhirledPeas 1y agoIt feels like we are still trying to convince ourselves that EVs are a good idea. Progress is too slow and too painful.
- azinman2 1y agoWhy wouldn’t they obviously be?
- p_j_w 1y agoBecause some people stand to lose boatloads of money if they are.
- amusingimpala75 1y ago(To be clear I quite happen to like EVs) And those people who would lose money are the EV manufacturers. AFAIK in the US EV manufacturers are barely making money even with gov’t subsidies (baring Tesla). They can’t charge what would be necessary without subsidies because most people simply wouldn’t want or couldn’t afford such a product at that price point.
- MetaWhirledPeas 1y agoI've been looking for a place to talk about this. Seemingly through a potent combination of government subsidies, willingness to embrace the technology, and general STEM competence, China has exploded with quality EV manufacturers. The ICE manufacturers are doomed regardless of what type of car they try to sell. It makes me wonder about this from a policy perspective. China, more than any other country, has the power to dump products at a net loss to the country for the sake of a long term victory. That's tough to combat.
- moate 1y agoI believe OP is lamenting the fact that we still need to have the "EV/hybrids's are better the ICE vehicles" discussion in 2025. That there's a segment of the population that needs a mountain of such overwhelming evidence to be convinced of the value.
- allthedatas 1y agoVery urban focused of course given the site and there's nothing wrong with an urban focus for EVs. EVs as they are being pushed on us are made for cities. Outside of a dense urban area, EVs without a gas/diesel powered charger (aka hybrid) are much less useful, but I do not want to see charging stations everywhere either. Kinetic recovery is great, but as there are orders of magnitude less braking required driving outside of cities, the recovered energy is also much less, and the brake dust generated is also much less. Also there are far fewer cars per mile of road (let alone size of the area) and any brake dust pollution is spread over a much wider area. Many of the negative pollution issues associated with cars are due to excessive density in urban areas, the added amount of braking, the added idling, and the extra acceleration repeatedly required in a city with a stop light every block.
- janosch_123 1y agoFor DIY EV conversions (I built some cars) you usually hook up the "regenerate braking" to the brakelight switch. So as soon as you tap the brake pedal just a little, you start regenerating and see the amps flow back into the battery (I have a little display on my dashboard). Only when you press the pedal further, do you start engaging the friction brakes. I have no statistics on brake pad differences because we didn't build enough cars/didn't cover enough mileage to measure, but it is obvious that you would cut down on brake pad usage. Everything I know about EVs and the tech behind it I share on: youtube.com/@foxev-content
- whycome 1y agoWith a manual car, it was common to downshift and use the engine to decelerate. I’m wondering if electric vehicles might actually cause a return to a third pedal to re-add some of the fine tuned controls that a manual transmission allowed. Maybe the “downshift” could engage the regen brake specifically.
- jetbalsa 1y agoSome EVs have single pedal mode, where if you let off the gas it will bring you to a complete stop,
- darknavi 1y agoSome EVs have that. Anecdotally, once you get used to "one pedal driving" having that sort of control (via extra input mechanisms like steering wheel pedals) is just plain annoying.
- toss1 1y agoCool idea. Perhaps a better idea would be to borrow from the brake balance adjustment in race cars, wherein an adjuster dial/knob allows the driver to alter the balance between the front vs rear brakes when the brakes are applied (very useful in wet vs dry conditions, high-speed vs low-speed sections, etc.). So, instead of adjusting the F-R brake balance, the dial could adjust the regen-vs-mechanical braking, up to the limit of the batteries to accept power input. Another way of further reducing brake dust might be to have a higher regen setting that dumps excess power to a heat sink and cooling system, up to its limit before engaging the mechanical brake pads/discs.
- chiffre01 1y agoMy DIY e-bike has regenerate braking. It makes no meaningful difference for the battery charge. But in terms of brake pad life, they do seem to last about twice as long as before.
- tartoran 1y agoI have an electric unicycle and it also has regenerative braking and it seems to make a huge difference in consumption when riding in hilly areas.
- nordsieck 1y agoFrom what I've heard there's a countervailing effect for EVs, though - they end up generating more particulate pollution from tire wear because of greater vehicle weight and greater torque. The number that I've seen bandied about is ~20% greater tire wear.
- D13Fd 1y agoThat was my first thought. Fewer brake particles is great, but I’m guessing it won’t be enough to counter the increased tire wear.
- janosch_123 1y agoNot sure about that. If you accelerate a 2t vehicle to 60mph and then decelerate it back to 0mph then they would stress the tyres in the same way, no matter if you do EV & regen, EV no-regen or ICE, right? (I am keeping the weight constant). Prompted by your comment I had a look at vehicle weights and two facts stood out - ALL new cars are getting heavier EVERY YEAR because we keep adding more stuff (average car weight, and average SUV weight trend upwards from 2016 to 2023) - The average electric car is heavier than a petrol equivalent but is lighter than an SUV Weight certainly a problem, but the focus on EVs for weight is generally blown out of proportion. https://www.thisismoney.co.uk/money/cars/article-13588773/New-cars-400kg-heavier-seven-years-ago-EVs-SUVs.html https://www.thisismoney.co.uk/money/cars/article-13588773/Ne... https://www.sustainabilitybynumbers.com/p/weighty-issue-of-electric-cars https://www.sustainabilitybynumbers.com/p/weighty-issue-of-e...
- tonymet 1y agoThey address this briefly in the article (though inadequately) , that tire particles are heavier and doesn’t end up in the air like brake dust. But you do raise a good point at the holistic condition, and assessing a broader population with less than ideal configuration. They are looking at lightweight EVs at lower speeds. But Americans drive heavier EVs at highway speeds. The rotors & pads are huge.
- pdabbadabba 1y ago
- tonymet 1y agoYou can get similar results with proper deceleration, engine braking and downshifting. I’ve had brake pads last 110k miles (with room for 20k+ more), even though I lived in moderate hilly area. That’s probably 1/3 the brake dust, and comparable to an EV . If you are getting lower MPG than the EPA rating, you are also burning up your brakes from heavy deceleration. Improve your MPG to 15% over EPA and your brakes will last a lot longer. Also their studies were in European markets with tiny EVs and low speeds. Americans are favoring 7k-9k lb EVs (Hummer, Rivian), with massive brake rotors and PADs— at highway speeds 75mph+. A good driver of a 3k lb vehicle will produce less brake dust than a typical driver of a 9k EV. Studies like this are helpful, but they are not comprehensive. Similar to the marketing that home LEDs would have 10-20 year longevity, yet in practice they burn out after a few years. The full supply and application chain has to align for the ideal results in practice.
- analog31 1y agoUpvoted for making sense of basic physics. Another factor is speed.
- tonymet 1y agotried to capture that via EPA MPG ratings. if people reduce acceleration & top speed they can save a lot of brake wear
- SoftTalker 1y agoBut in a manual transmission car, downshifting and engine braking produces clutch dust instead of brake dust (basically the same thing).
- _jss 1y agoIn a modern car, or if you adequately rev match, the clutch wear is extremely small. Only if you are aggressively down shifting will that be a problem. It’s also only wear at that point in time, not the entire time through engine braking.
- klaff 1y agoThis is cool. I have a VW EV and use the B-mode for the "gas" pedal. It it not full one-pedal driving but IIUC exclusively uses regen. You can't decelerate rapidly, but most driving can be accomplished without touching the brake pedal except when down to a walking pace, where thanks to that square law relationship of speed to kinetic energy there's hardly any energy left to recover anyhow. After a bit you learn how much you can slow down with it and (for me at least) it becomes a bit of a game to see if you can avoid using the mechanical brakes by choosing early enough to lift your foot. As a result, the mechanical brakes get squeezed on every trip, but nearly all uses are during low speed maneuvering. If a light changes at the last moment or someone pulls out in front of me I will then have to make a substantial use of the mechanical brakes but that doesn't happen on every trip. I never have to ride the brakes down a long hill, and it was really satisfying the one time I went down a hill long enough to see the battery state of charge increase by a percent or two.
- atoav 1y agoI dream of a future where societes manage to price in all externalities into the objects they produce. This of course requires us to be(come) more honest about the hidden costs to society each and every objects and its usage brings with itself. What we do with that knowledge is another question, but right now my feeling is a lot of bad actors skew the picture to make themselves look good while regular people are left to breath the dust.
- tim333 1y agoTricky to do accurately though. Like a car driven occasionally in the countryside may cause little damage from brake dust, a cab in a city center a lot.
- atoav 1y agoNot necessarily: You get a mix of average representative driving profiles, drive that with a vehicle and measure how much particles are emitted. This is how exhaust emissions are already measured. In practise the biggest danger is that manufacturers game that system like VW did by recognizing a test environment and adjusting accordingly.
- dotancohen 1y ago> The health effect is especially critical for urban disadvantaged groups, where exposure to partical matter has been shown to be related to increased asthma rates, cardiovascular disease, and other respiratory conditions. Why would the health effect be more critical for disadvantaged groups than for other urban groups?
- jjtheblunt 1y agoperhaps the disadvantage is that, over time, living nearest to traffic _is_ the disadvantage, as it means living most immediately near pollution concentration.
- polairscience 1y agoSincere reply assuming sincere question, the implication is that they are statistically much more likely to live near interstates and highways. Since historically land owned by poor 'disadvantaged groups' has been easier for state and federal governments to get their hands on. The sentence, while poorly written, isn't saying that "health impacts don't matter for 'non-disadvantaged people'". A reading that is disingenuous.
- dotancohen 1y agoI see. In the areas familiar to the authors, disadvantaged groups typically live closer to the source of the pollution. Makes sense now. Thanks.
- jdsleppy 1y agoAlso disadvantaged groups might consume less healthcare and might be less aware of air quality, etc. and so may be more likely to have bad health outcomes for given environmental inputs.
- spaceguillotine 1y ago87k miles on my Leaf and it still has lots of brake pad left on the original pads.
- ck2 1y agoI really wish Biden had not banned cheap EVs I think it would have radically improved air-quality around roads and highways Every runner and cyclist would have greatly appreciated it
- namlem 1y agoLess brake dust but more tire dust for cars of similar size due to the greater weight.
- rajnathani 1y agoRelated recent HN discussion: 58 days ago: "Another way electric cars clean the air: study says brake dust reduced by 83%" (103 points | 184 comments): https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=44113256 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=44113256
- h14h 1y agoHow does brake dust compare to tire dust in terms of quantity? My understanding was that most of the black soot that accumulates near roadways is mostly tire particulate.