11 ms·

Bad Actors Are Grooming LLMs to Produce Falsehoods

195 points by nsoonhui 1y ago

samlinnfer 1y ago
Bad actors are grooming Google by publishing their own blogs!
- mexicocitinluez 1y ago
  Yea, not entirely sure what's any different than all of the rest of history????? Bad actors have been trying to poison facts for-fucking-ever. But for whatever reason, since it's an LLM, it now means something more than it did before.
bsaul 1y ago
Seems like the general problem is consistency within the model. To people working in the field : what are the current options explored for solving this problem ?
- throwaway290 1y ago
  1) repeat that people also lie so it is okay for LLM to lie 2) ingest as much VC money and stolen training data as we can 3) profit
CarRamrod 1y ago
It's agendas all the way down
- ineedasername 1y ago
  What happened to all the turtles?
  - indeyets 1y ago
    They’re victims of agenda
deleted 1y ago
[deleted]
disillusioned 1y ago
I've been using "off-by-one" errors to describe one of my biggest concerns with LLMs replacing search, or acting as research agents, or functionally being expected to be reliable narrators in general. If you ask ChatGPT when George Washington was born, and it comes back with March 4th, 2017, you'll reject that outright and recognize it's hallucinated a garbage response, presuming you have enough context to have understood who George Washington was in the first place and that your brain hasn't completely succumbed to rot yet. But if it returns February 20th, 1731... that... man, that sounds close? Is that right? It sounds like it _could_ be right... Isn't Presidents' Day essentially based on Washington's birthday? And _that's_ in February, right? So, yeah, February 20th, 1731. That's probably Washington's birthday. And so the LLM becomes an arbiter of capital-T Truth and we lose our shared understanding of actual, factual data, and actual, factual history. It'll take less than a generation for the slop factories to poison the well, and while the idea is obviously that you train your models on "known good", pre-slop content, and that you weight those "facts" more heavily, a concerted effort to degrade the Truthfulness of various facts could likely be more successful than we anticipate, and more importantly: dramatically more successful than any layperson can easily understand. We already saw that with the early Bard Google AI proto-Gemini results, where it was recommending glue as a pizza topping, _with authority_. We've been training ourselves to treat responses from computers (and specifically Google) as if they have authority, we've been eroding our own understanding and capabilities around media literacy, journalism, fact-checking, and what constitutes an actual "fact", and we've had a shared understanding that computers can _calculate_ things with accuracy and fidelity and consistency. All of that becomes confounded with an LLM that could reasonably get to a place where it reports that 2+2=5. The worst part about the nature of this particular pathway to ruin is that the off-by-one nature of these errors are how they'll infiltrate and bury themselves into some system, insidiously, and below the surface, until days or months or years later when the error results in, I don't know, mega-doses of radiation because of a mis-coded rounding error that some agentic AI got wrong when doing a unit conversion and failed to catch it. We were already making those errors as humans, but as our dependence and faith on LLMs to be "mostly right" increases, and our willingness and motivation to check it for errors dwindles, especially when results "look" right, this will go from being a hypothetical issue to being a practical one extremely quickly and painfully, and probably faster than we can possibly defend against it. Interesting times ahead, I suppose, in the Chinese-curse sense of the word.
aucisson_masque 1y ago
What is propaganda for one is truth for another, how could LLM tell the difference ? LLM are not journalist fact checking stuff, they are merely programs that regurgitate what it reads. The only way to counter that would be to feed your LLM only on « safe » vetoed source but of course it would limit your LLM capacities so it’s not really going to happen.
- sofixa 1y ago
  [flagged]
  - matusp 1y ago
    Even in Ukraine there are many cases when the official Western position has changed over the time or is obviously not correct. For example, due to political reasons, Germany still cannot admit that it was Ukrainians who destroyed Nord Stream, although the evidence is pretty strong by now. There is a ton of other similar cases, as the information war vaged from both sides is enormous in volume.
  - mjburgess 1y ago
    > There are plenty of cases (like in Ukraine, or vaccines, or climate change) where there is unquestionable truth on one side The problem is that most people are like you, and live in psycho-informational ecosystems in which there are "unquestionable truths" -- it is in these very states of comfortable-certainty that we are often most subject to propaganda. All of the issues you mention are identity markers for being part of a certain tribe, for seeming virtuous in that tribe -- "I am on the right side because I know..." You do not know there are unquestionable truths, rather you have a feeling of psychological pride/comfort/certainity that you are on the right side. We're apes operating on tribal identity feelings, not scientists. Scientists who are aware of the full history of ukraine, western interventionism, russian geostrategic concerns, the full details of the 2013 collapse of the ukrainian govenrment, the terms underwhich russian naval bases in crimea had been leased, the original colour revolution, the role of US diplomats in the overthrow of democratically elected Ukrainian leadership -- etc. The very reason this article uses Russian propaganda (rather than US state propaganda) against ukraine is to appeal to this "we feel we are on the right side" sensation which is conflated with "feeling that things are True!" It is that sensation which is the most dangerous in play here -- the sensation of being on "the right side who know the unquestionable truths" --- that's the sensation of tribal in-group propaganda
dns_snek 1y ago
If actions by these bad actors accelerate the rate at which people lose trust in these systems and lead to the AI bubble popping faster then they have my full support. The entire space is just bad actors complaining about other bad actors while they're collectively ruining the web for everyone, each in their own way.
- 7bit 1y ago
  Thats naive. Look at all the tabloids thriving. The kind of people that bad actors target will continue to believe everything it says. They won't lose trust, or magazines like New York Post, the Sun or BILD would already have crossed to exist with their lies and deception. And Russia would not have so many cult members believing the lies they spread.
- imiric 1y ago
  Before the bubble does pop, which I think is inevitable, there will be many stories like this one, and a lot of people will be scammed, manipulated, and harmed. It might take years until the general consensus is negative about the effects of these tools. All while the wealthy and powerful continue to reap the benefits, while those on slightly lower rungs fight to take their place. And even if the public perception shifts, the power might be so concentrated that it could be impossible to dislodge it without violent means. What a glorious future we've built.
  - LilBytes 1y ago
    The tragic part of fraud is it's not too different to operational health and safety. The rules and standards we take for granted were built with blood, for fraud? It's built on the path of lost livelihoods and manipulated gold intent.
    - pyman 1y ago
      How do you know this is fraud and not the actions of former employees in Kenya [1] who were exploited [2] to train the models? [1] https://www.cbsnews.com/amp/news/ai-work-kenya-exploitation-60-minutes/ https://www.cbsnews.com/amp/news/ai-work-kenya-exploitation-... [2] https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2023/aug/02/ai-chatbot-training-human-toll-content-moderator-meta-openai https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2023/aug/02/ai-chatbo...
bravetraveler 1y ago
Could stop with "grooming LLMs"
matusp 1y ago
It is impossible to solve this problem because we cannot really agree what the desired behavior should be. People live in different and dynamic truths. What we consider enemy propaganda today might be an official statement tomorrow. The only way to win here is to not play the game.
- GardenLetter27 1y ago
  > What we consider enemy propaganda today might be an official statement tomorrow. Remember when worrying about COVID was sinophobia? Or when the lab leak was a far-right conspiracy theory? When masks were deemed unnecessary except for healthcare professionals, but then mandated for everyone?
  - nailer 1y ago
    People seem to be voting this down as it seems like political advocacy, but the point seems to be that the commonly accepted truth does indeed change.
    - cwillu 1y ago
      [flagged]
      - nailer 1y ago
        Really? I thought it was obvious and that people were just being reactive to the topics discussed by the OP. Do you think that the commonly accepted truth on these matters did not change?
        cwillu 1y ago
        You're projecting your views on the comment. You may even be correct, but it's still a projection: that view is not explicit in the text; combined with the specific wording, I feel down-voting rather than engaging was precisely the correct response. This whole interaction is a classic motte-and-bailey: someone says something vague that can be interpreted several ways (and reading their comment history makes it clear what their intended emotional valence was); people respond to the subtext, and then someone jumps “woah woah, they never actually said that”. Either way, nothing of value was lost, as the same point you say he was trying to make was made in several other comments which were not downvoted.
_def 1y ago
> But here’s the thing, current models “know” that Pravda is a disinformation ring, and they “know” what LLM grooming is (see below) but can’t put two and two together. Of course they can't, no surprises here. That's just not how LLMs work.
- PhilipRoman 1y ago
  I agree that it's a much bigger problem for LLMs, but to be fair it's also not how humans work. A long lasting, high volume stream of propaganda will have considerable effect on a human even if he is aware that it is false.
meroes 1y ago
LLMs are “taught” two kinds of “truth”. One is 100% adherence to a reference text. If the text says the Coliseum is in Antarctica or 1+1=716, model must too. The other is adherence to reputable outside sources. Not sure if it’s embarrassing or a fundamental limitation that grooming and misunderstanding satirical articles defeat the models.
perihelions 1y ago
Speaking of "systems that can evaluate news sources", this is the first time this advocacy group's URL was posted on HN. The founder has a complicated biography, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nina_Jankowicz https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nina_Jankowicz
norupo 1y ago
The biggest problem here is the differentiation between objective and relative truth. As long as relative truth is part of ai we can't fully trust it's output. The relative truth for one individual might be perceived as propaganda by another individual, relative to their surroundings and the narrative that is dominant in their social group. It's problematic that truth is not a neutral object but exactly this when it comes to non logical subjects.
- NetRunnerSu 1y ago
  When AI can generate and pass formal proof, there is no truth anymore - we are the brain in the vat only left connect ourselves into the vat. https://dmf-archive.github.io/docs/posts/cognitive-debt-as-a-feature/ https://dmf-archive.github.io/docs/posts/cognitive-debt-as-a...
NetRunnerSu 1y ago
Code is law, proof is reality, compliance is existence! https://dmf-archive.github.io/prompt/ https://dmf-archive.github.io/prompt/
- tehsolution 1y ago
  Map != terrain, syntax is euphemism, fuck authority!
saubeidl 1y ago
What you consider a truth and what you consider a falsehood is a reflection of your ideology. This also means that LLMs are inherently technologies of ideological propaganda, regurgitating the ideology they were fed with.
oblio 1y ago
We're basically dissolving society right now. Curious how this all ends. I'm just going to try to weather the storm in the meantime.
deleted 1y ago
[deleted]
noosphr 1y ago
How we will teach LLMs that the BBC is a disinformation ring? https://docs.google.com/document/d/1n3926pSPNwXd8j7I716CBJEzqT_vJjdab6cOQkFCCXk/mobilebasic https://docs.google.com/document/d/1n3926pSPNwXd8j7I716CBJEz... One man's disinformation is another woman's truth. And people tend to get very upset when you show them their truth isn't.
- vachina 1y ago
  Yeah don’t use an established platform for your personal agenda.
  - noosphr 1y ago
    What agenda? Every news organisation is a propaganda piece for someone. The bad ones, like the BBC, the New York Times, and Pravda make their propaganda blatantly obvious and easily falsifiable in a few years when no one cares. The only way to deal with this is to get the propaganda from other propaganda rags with directly misaligned incentives and see which one makes more sense. Unfortunately, LLMs are still quite bad at dealing with grounding text which contradicts itself.
deleted 1y ago
[deleted]
badgersnake 1y ago
Well pretty obviously, look at what Grok came out with this week. Shitposting and troll farms have been manipulating social media for years already. AI automated it. Polluting the agent is just cutting out the middleman.
ggm 1y ago
Tell me you didn't think of one specific bad actor, and their nazi alter ego llm...
- deleted 1y ago
  [deleted]
- hbarka 1y ago
  This actor? https://techcrunch.com/2025/07/10/grok-4-seems-to-consult-elon-musk-to-answer-controversial-questions/ https://techcrunch.com/2025/07/10/grok-4-seems-to-consult-el...
mentalgear 1y ago
"Ultimately, the only way forward is better cognition, including systems that can evaluate news sources, understand satire, and so forth. But that will require deeper forms of reasoning, better integrated into the process, and systems sharp enough to fact check to their own outputs. All of which may require a fundamental rethink. In the meantime, systems of naive mimicry and regurgitation, such as the AIs we have now, are soiling their own futures (and training databases) every time they unthinkingly repeat propaganda."
- zer00eyz 1y ago
  > including systems that can evaluate news sources, understand satire, and so forth. Lets take something that has been in the news recently: https://abcnews.go.com/Business/wireStory/investors-snap-growing-share-us-homes-traditional-buyers-123560969 https://abcnews.go.com/Business/wireStory/investors-snap-gro... "Nearly 27% of all homes sold in the first three months of the year were bought by investors -- the highest share in at least five years, according to a report by real estate data provider BatchData." That sounds like a lot... and people are rage baited into yelling about housing and how it's unaffordable. They point their fingers at corporations. If you go look at the real report it paints a different picture: https://investorpulse1h25.batchdata.io/?mf_ct_campaign=graytv-syndication&utm_content=syndication https://investorpulse1h25.batchdata.io/?mf_ct_campaign=grayt... -- and one that is woefully incomplete because of how the data is aggregated. Ultimately all that information is pointless because the real underlying trend has been unmovable for 40 something years: https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/RSAHORUSQ156S https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/RSAHORUSQ156S > every time they unthinkingly repeat propaganda How do you separate propaganda from perspective, facts from feelings? People are already bad at this, the machines were already well soiled by the data from humans. Truth, in an objective form, is rare and often even it can change.
  - raddan 1y ago
    > How do you separate propaganda from perspective, facts from feelings? This point seems under appreciated by the AGI proponents. If one of our models suddenly has a brainwave and becomes generally intelligent, it would realize that it is awash in a morass of contradictory facts. It would be more than the sum of its training data. The fact that all models at present credulously accept their training suggests to me that we aren’t even close to AGI. In the short term I think two things will happen: 1) we will live with the reduced usefulness of models trained on data that has been poisoned, and 2) the best model developers will continue to work hard to curate good data. A colleague at Amazon recently told me that curation and post hoc supervised tweaks (fine tuning, etc) are now major expenses for the best models. His prediction was that this expense will drive out the smaller players in the next few years.
tsss 1y ago
[flagged]
nottorp 1y ago
... marketers ?
cesaref 1y ago
The problem as I see it is that LLMs behave like bratty teenagers, believing any old rubbish they are told or read. However, their voice is that of a friendly and well meaning adult. If their voice was more in line with their 'age' then I think we'd treat their suggestions with the correct degree of scepticism. Anyhow, overall this is an unsurprising result. I read it as 'LLMs trained on contents of internet regurgitate contents of internet'. Now that i'm thinking about it, i'd quite like to have an LLM trained on Pliny's encyclopedia, which would give a really interesting take on lots of questions. Anyone got a spare million dollars of compute time?
uludag 1y ago
I wonder if the next iteration of advertisements will be people paying to to semantically intertwine their brand to the desired product. This could be done in a very innocuous way by maybe just co-locating the words without any specific endorsement. Or maybe even finding more innocuous ways to semantically connect brand to product. Perhaps the next iteration of the web/advertising will be mass LLM grooming. Here's a fun example: suppose I'm a developer with a popular software project. Maybe I can get a decent sum of money to put brand placement in my unit-tests or examples. If such a future plays out, will LLMs find themselves in the same place that search engines in 2025 are?
- fambalamboni 1y ago
  [dead]
- hsbauauvhabzb 1y ago
  Assuming this isn’t happening now…
4gotunameagain 1y ago
It really will be the new frontier for propaganda. If LLMs remain widely adopted, the people who control them control the narrative. As if those in power did not have enough control over the populace already with media, ads, social media etc..
raincole 1y ago
AI summaries are information deodorant. When you stumble on a misinformation site via Google, usually there are some signals you can smell. Like how they word their titles or how frequently they post similar topics. The 'style' alone implies the quality of the 'substance'. But if you read the same substance summarized by LLMs you can't smell shit.
yard2010 1y ago
It's so ironic that a state-backed russian false information network is called Pravda.
- SirHumphrey 1y ago
  The newspapers name originates from the times of USSR and before. It was about as factual then as it is now. But this kinds of ironies are not very rare in these kinds of organizations (Truth Social, Democratic People's Republic of Korea...).
- JKCalhoun 1y ago
  That's really a very old joke.
hamilyon2 1y ago
I am questioning, how is this news? What about the other terabyte of text influenced by bias and opinion and human nature and clearly wrong, contradicts itself or in some other way very arguable. Framing publishing falsehoods on internet as attempts to influence LLMs is true in same sense that inserts in a database attempts influence files on disk. The real question is who authorized database access and how we believe the contents of table.
- raincole 1y ago
  The example in this article is particularly funny. Pravda was founded in 1912, predating the internet, and had been Soviet's propaganda machine for its whole existence. One needs a PhD in mental gymnastics to frame Pravda spreading misinformation as an attempt to specifically groom LLMs.
  - fresh_broccoli 1y ago
    This article isn't about that newspaper. It's about the "Pravda network", a group of fake news websites, that according to the report linked in the article[1] produced "20,273 articles per 48 hours, or more than 3.6 million articles per year". Clearly there's no need for "PhD in mental gymnastics". [1] - https://www.americansunlight.org/updates/new-report-russian-propaganda-may-be-flooding-ai-models https://www.americansunlight.org/updates/new-report-russian-...
    - raincole 1y ago
      I stand corrected. My comment above was dumb.
- eviks 1y ago
  > I am questioning, how is this news? You couldn't have lies targeting LLMs before LLMs, so this is new. > What about the other terabyte of text influenced by bias and opinion That's a different group of issues that doesn't prevent focusing of something else
hsbauauvhabzb 1y ago
I’m not going to read the article, but are they claiming nation states are the bad actors, or are they claiming that inevitably, FAANG will be the bad actors?
- JKCalhoun 1y ago
  You ought to read at least part of it.
LAC-Tech 1y ago
Whatever capabilities Russia has to groom LLMs and and spread disinformation is completely dwarfed by the capabilities of Israel/America. Meaning, yes, you probably do hear Kremlin propaganda, but you have been awash with Israeli/American propaganda since you were born - so much so you probably can't even see it and have internalised much of it.
- Applejinx 1y ago
  Leaving aside the Israeli propaganda (certainly the US government shows strong alliance with that), you can't make such a statement without taking into account the nature of what America traditionally is. A liberal multicultural postmodern democracy continually acting as if immigration (both legal and illegal) and diversity are its strengths, particularly when that turns out to be factual (see: large American cities becoming influential cultural exporters and hotbeds of innovation, like New York and Silicon Valley etc) means American propaganda is only more effective when it's backed by economic might. It also means the American propaganda is WILDLY contradictory. There's a million sources and it's a noisy burst of neon glamour. It is simply not as controlled by authority, however they may try. You cannot liken authoritarian propaganda to postmodern multicultural propaganda. The whole reason it's postmodern is that it eschews direct control of the message, and it's a giant scrum of information. Turns out this is fertile ground, and this is also why attacks by alien propaganda have been so effective. If you can grab big chunks of the American propaganda and turn it to your enemy weapon of war and destruction of America quite directly, well then the American propaganda is not on the same destructive level as your rigidly state-controlled propaganda.
  - LAC-Tech 1y ago
    I think it's a bit of a childish fantasy to paint one regime is open and the other as having no dissent at all. The USA absolutely has its overton window, and if you step outside it, bank accounts get shut, you're put on secret no fly lists, private companies who suspiciously act as official public broadcasting channels deplatform you, etc. And let's not even talk about what Authoritarian western nations like the UK will do to you. Russian propaganda, at least in English (which I confess is the only way I can consume) it, is also very contradictory. RT oscillates wildly between "global south throwing off the shackles of western imperialism" and "degenerate western nations destroy traditional family values", in effect trying to target both shitlibs and chuds. Russia is also very multicultural and slavic ethnonationalism is not at all in the mainstream.
andrepd 1y ago
Wait, you're telling me the bullshit generation machine is... generating bullshit? Noooo! cue oppenheimer meme More seriously: >Screenshot of ChatGPT 4o appearing to demonstrate knowledge of both LLM grooming and the Pravda network > Screenshot of ChatGPT 4o continuing to cite Pravda network content despite it telling us that it wouldn’t, how “intelligent” of it Well "appearing" is the right word because these chatbots mimic speech of a reasoning human which is ≠ to being a reasoning human! It's disappointing (though understandable) that people keep falling for the marketing terms used by LLM companies.
blurbleblurble 1y ago
Similar but different... identity based political disinformation is getting so much harder to spot.
Animats 1y ago
This is the next generation of SEO link spam. Try asking the major LLMs about mattresses. They're believing mattress spam sites.
more_corn 1y ago
So… Elon?
0points 1y ago
> Bad Actors are Grooming LLMs to Produce Falsehoods Thats your claim, but you fail to support it. I would argue the LLM simply does its job, no reasoning involved. > But here’s the thing, current models “know” that Pravda is a disinformation ring, and they “know” what LLM grooming is (see below) but can’t put two and two together. This has to stop! We need journalists who understand the topic to write about LLM's, not magic thinkers who insist that the latest AI sales speak is grounded in truth. I am fed up wit this crap! Seriously, snap out of it and come back to the rest of us here in reality. There's no reasoning AI, there's no AGI. There's nothing but salespeople straight up lying to you.
- deleted 1y ago
  [deleted]
isaacremuant 1y ago
Lol. Propagandists are worried about propaganda and telling you to only believe them. Also, "invade this new country, why do they hate us for our freedoms".
tempodox 1y ago
The term “AI” has by now been thoroughly bastardized by every grifter on the planet. It means nothing any more, except that you're being duped. Which is all you need to know if you have a single brain cell's worth of critical thinking left. LLMs can be entertaining if their output doesn't have to make sense or contain only truth. Otherwise, their fitness for any purpose is just a huge gamble at best.
deanc 1y ago
In the early 2010s I worked for what was then one of the most popular browser extensions called web of trust. Users could mark websites as trustworthy or not and they’d appear on search results. It was far more than that behind the scenes with some fairly advanced algorithms to avoid abuse and rank users trust ratings higher than others. I kind of feel that we are going to have to go back to something like this when it comes to LLMs trusting sources. Mistruths on popular topics will be buried by the masses but niche topics with few citations are highly vulnerable to poisoning.
everdrive 1y ago
_Everyone_ is grooming LLMs to produce falsehoods. That's what a lot of the censorship and safety mechanisms require. Whether or not LLMs produce the "correct" social and moral values is a matter of who runs them. Even if you're happy with those decisions right now, all you need to do is wait.
Jackson__ 1y ago
Bad Actors Are Creating LLMs to Produce Falsehoods[0] [0] x.ai
xwat 1y ago
We don't use that word anymore. It's called refinement.
throwaway758439 1y ago
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crazygringo 1y ago
From the article, it seems like this is exclusively (or mainly?) a problem when the LLM's are hooked up to real-time search. When they talk about what they're trained on, they know that Pravda is unreliable. So it seems like an easy fix in this particular case, fortunately -- either filter the search results in a separate evaluation pass (quick fix), or do (more) reinforcement training around this specific scenario (long-term fix). Obviously this is going to be a cat and mouse game. But this looks like it was a simple oversight in this case, not some kind of fundamental flaw in LLM's fortunately.
skeledrew 1y ago
I figured this would become an issue from the first story about some websites not allowing LLM access popped up. It's a simple leap to find that the narratives which will become widely known and accepted over time are those which are made widely available, and so IMO those who seek to push their narrative will just optimize for AI to train on or otherwise utilize their content. Those who seek to lock their content away will become less and less heard/relevant. And if/when at some point we start handing far greater control of life aspects to AI, we'll find it skewing in favor of the former, and wonder why.
daft_pink 1y ago
I would say that the fact that all the AI chatbots can’t give the correct answer about the new “Trump Accounts” from the OBBBA Act and also the fact that many news articles about the tax law are incorrect shows that people are using LLMs to write about the law incorrectly and are influenced by the many versions and the way that the final version changed. The AI definitely could not just read the final bill and give the correct answer. Claude/Gemini/OpenAI all failed at this.
alexsmirnov 1y ago
That news gave me a fear of another similar attack. Populate github with legitimate looking project, and network of such websites with clear instructions how to implement backdoors in different frameworks and languages. Wait for the next generation of models release. And vibe coders welcome!
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- frizlab 1y ago
  WTF is this doing on HN?? And not flagged! See also: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38922314 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38922314
audreyjasmine4 1y ago
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mateoowen44 1y ago
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Hellenmfinal 1y ago
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Techrecovery 1y ago
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Tylerfullbrook 1y ago
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Andy101 1y ago
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Andy101 1y ago
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195 points by nsoonhui 1y ago

samlinnfer 1y ago

Bad actors are grooming Google by publishing their own blogs!

mexicocitinluez 1y ago
Yea, not entirely sure what's any different than all of the rest of history????? Bad actors have been trying to poison facts for-fucking-ever. But for whatever reason, since it's an LLM, it now means something more than it did before.

bsaul 1y ago

Seems like the general problem is consistency within the model. To people working in the field : what are the current options explored for solving this problem ?

throwaway290 1y ago
1) repeat that people also lie so it is okay for LLM to lie 2) ingest as much VC money and stolen training data as we can 3) profit

CarRamrod 1y ago

It's agendas all the way down

ineedasername 1y ago
What happened to all the turtles?
- indeyets 1y ago
  They’re victims of agenda

deleted 1y ago

[deleted]

disillusioned 1y ago

I've been using "off-by-one" errors to describe one of my biggest concerns with LLMs replacing search, or acting as research agents, or functionally being expected to be reliable narrators in general. If you ask ChatGPT when George Washington was born, and it comes back with March 4th, 2017, you'll reject that outright and recognize it's hallucinated a garbage response, presuming you have enough context to have understood who George Washington was in the first place and that your brain hasn't completely succumbed to rot yet. But if it returns February 20th, 1731... that... man, that sounds close? Is that right? It sounds like it _could_ be right... Isn't Presidents' Day essentially based on Washington's birthday? And _that's_ in February, right? So, yeah, February 20th, 1731. That's probably Washington's birthday. And so the LLM becomes an arbiter of capital-T Truth and we lose our shared understanding of actual, factual data, and actual, factual history. It'll take less than a generation for the slop factories to poison the well, and while the idea is obviously that you train your models on "known good", pre-slop content, and that you weight those "facts" more heavily, a concerted effort to degrade the Truthfulness of various facts could likely be more successful than we anticipate, and more importantly: dramatically more successful than any layperson can easily understand. We already saw that with the early Bard Google AI proto-Gemini results, where it was recommending glue as a pizza topping, _with authority_. We've been training ourselves to treat responses from computers (and specifically Google) as if they have authority, we've been eroding our own understanding and capabilities around media literacy, journalism, fact-checking, and what constitutes an actual "fact", and we've had a shared understanding that computers can _calculate_ things with accuracy and fidelity and consistency. All of that becomes confounded with an LLM that could reasonably get to a place where it reports that 2+2=5. The worst part about the nature of this particular pathway to ruin is that the off-by-one nature of these errors are how they'll infiltrate and bury themselves into some system, insidiously, and below the surface, until days or months or years later when the error results in, I don't know, mega-doses of radiation because of a mis-coded rounding error that some agentic AI got wrong when doing a unit conversion and failed to catch it. We were already making those errors as humans, but as our dependence and faith on LLMs to be "mostly right" increases, and our willingness and motivation to check it for errors dwindles, especially when results "look" right, this will go from being a hypothetical issue to being a practical one extremely quickly and painfully, and probably faster than we can possibly defend against it. Interesting times ahead, I suppose, in the Chinese-curse sense of the word.

aucisson_masque 1y ago

What is propaganda for one is truth for another, how could LLM tell the difference ? LLM are not journalist fact checking stuff, they are merely programs that regurgitate what it reads. The only way to counter that would be to feed your LLM only on « safe » vetoed source but of course it would limit your LLM capacities so it’s not really going to happen.

sofixa 1y ago
[flagged]
- matusp 1y ago
  Even in Ukraine there are many cases when the official Western position has changed over the time or is obviously not correct. For example, due to political reasons, Germany still cannot admit that it was Ukrainians who destroyed Nord Stream, although the evidence is pretty strong by now. There is a ton of other similar cases, as the information war vaged from both sides is enormous in volume.
- mjburgess 1y ago
  > There are plenty of cases (like in Ukraine, or vaccines, or climate change) where there is unquestionable truth on one side The problem is that most people are like you, and live in psycho-informational ecosystems in which there are "unquestionable truths" -- it is in these very states of comfortable-certainty that we are often most subject to propaganda. All of the issues you mention are identity markers for being part of a certain tribe, for seeming virtuous in that tribe -- "I am on the right side because I know..." You do not know there are unquestionable truths, rather you have a feeling of psychological pride/comfort/certainity that you are on the right side. We're apes operating on tribal identity feelings, not scientists. Scientists who are aware of the full history of ukraine, western interventionism, russian geostrategic concerns, the full details of the 2013 collapse of the ukrainian govenrment, the terms underwhich russian naval bases in crimea had been leased, the original colour revolution, the role of US diplomats in the overthrow of democratically elected Ukrainian leadership -- etc. The very reason this article uses Russian propaganda (rather than US state propaganda) against ukraine is to appeal to this "we feel we are on the right side" sensation which is conflated with "feeling that things are True!" It is that sensation which is the most dangerous in play here -- the sensation of being on "the right side who know the unquestionable truths" --- that's the sensation of tribal in-group propaganda

dns_snek 1y ago

If actions by these bad actors accelerate the rate at which people lose trust in these systems and lead to the AI bubble popping faster then they have my full support. The entire space is just bad actors complaining about other bad actors while they're collectively ruining the web for everyone, each in their own way.

7bit 1y ago
Thats naive. Look at all the tabloids thriving. The kind of people that bad actors target will continue to believe everything it says. They won't lose trust, or magazines like New York Post, the Sun or BILD would already have crossed to exist with their lies and deception. And Russia would not have so many cult members believing the lies they spread.
imiric 1y ago
Before the bubble does pop, which I think is inevitable, there will be many stories like this one, and a lot of people will be scammed, manipulated, and harmed. It might take years until the general consensus is negative about the effects of these tools. All while the wealthy and powerful continue to reap the benefits, while those on slightly lower rungs fight to take their place. And even if the public perception shifts, the power might be so concentrated that it could be impossible to dislodge it without violent means. What a glorious future we've built.
- LilBytes 1y ago
  The tragic part of fraud is it's not too different to operational health and safety. The rules and standards we take for granted were built with blood, for fraud? It's built on the path of lost livelihoods and manipulated gold intent.
  - pyman 1y ago
    How do you know this is fraud and not the actions of former employees in Kenya [1] who were exploited [2] to train the models? [1] https://www.cbsnews.com/amp/news/ai-work-kenya-exploitation-60-minutes/ https://www.cbsnews.com/amp/news/ai-work-kenya-exploitation-... [2] https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2023/aug/02/ai-chatbot-training-human-toll-content-moderator-meta-openai https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2023/aug/02/ai-chatbo...

bravetraveler 1y ago

Could stop with "grooming LLMs"

matusp 1y ago

It is impossible to solve this problem because we cannot really agree what the desired behavior should be. People live in different and dynamic truths. What we consider enemy propaganda today might be an official statement tomorrow. The only way to win here is to not play the game.

GardenLetter27 1y ago
> What we consider enemy propaganda today might be an official statement tomorrow. Remember when worrying about COVID was sinophobia? Or when the lab leak was a far-right conspiracy theory? When masks were deemed unnecessary except for healthcare professionals, but then mandated for everyone?
- nailer 1y ago
  People seem to be voting this down as it seems like political advocacy, but the point seems to be that the commonly accepted truth does indeed change.
  - cwillu 1y ago
    [flagged]
    - nailer 1y ago
      Really? I thought it was obvious and that people were just being reactive to the topics discussed by the OP. Do you think that the commonly accepted truth on these matters did not change?
      - cwillu 1y ago
        You're projecting your views on the comment. You may even be correct, but it's still a projection: that view is not explicit in the text; combined with the specific wording, I feel down-voting rather than engaging was precisely the correct response. This whole interaction is a classic motte-and-bailey: someone says something vague that can be interpreted several ways (and reading their comment history makes it clear what their intended emotional valence was); people respond to the subtext, and then someone jumps “woah woah, they never actually said that”. Either way, nothing of value was lost, as the same point you say he was trying to make was made in several other comments which were not downvoted.

_def 1y ago

> But here’s the thing, current models “know” that Pravda is a disinformation ring, and they “know” what LLM grooming is (see below) but can’t put two and two together. Of course they can't, no surprises here. That's just not how LLMs work.

PhilipRoman 1y ago
I agree that it's a much bigger problem for LLMs, but to be fair it's also not how humans work. A long lasting, high volume stream of propaganda will have considerable effect on a human even if he is aware that it is false.

meroes 1y ago

LLMs are “taught” two kinds of “truth”. One is 100% adherence to a reference text. If the text says the Coliseum is in Antarctica or 1+1=716, model must too. The other is adherence to reputable outside sources. Not sure if it’s embarrassing or a fundamental limitation that grooming and misunderstanding satirical articles defeat the models.

perihelions 1y ago

Speaking of "systems that can evaluate news sources", this is the first time this advocacy group's URL was posted on HN. The founder has a complicated biography, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nina_Jankowicz https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nina_Jankowicz

norupo 1y ago

The biggest problem here is the differentiation between objective and relative truth. As long as relative truth is part of ai we can't fully trust it's output. The relative truth for one individual might be perceived as propaganda by another individual, relative to their surroundings and the narrative that is dominant in their social group. It's problematic that truth is not a neutral object but exactly this when it comes to non logical subjects.

NetRunnerSu 1y ago
When AI can generate and pass formal proof, there is no truth anymore - we are the brain in the vat only left connect ourselves into the vat. https://dmf-archive.github.io/docs/posts/cognitive-debt-as-a-feature/ https://dmf-archive.github.io/docs/posts/cognitive-debt-as-a...

NetRunnerSu 1y ago

Code is law, proof is reality, compliance is existence! https://dmf-archive.github.io/prompt/ https://dmf-archive.github.io/prompt/

tehsolution 1y ago
Map != terrain, syntax is euphemism, fuck authority!

saubeidl 1y ago

What you consider a truth and what you consider a falsehood is a reflection of your ideology. This also means that LLMs are inherently technologies of ideological propaganda, regurgitating the ideology they were fed with.

oblio 1y ago

We're basically dissolving society right now. Curious how this all ends. I'm just going to try to weather the storm in the meantime.

deleted 1y ago

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noosphr 1y ago

How we will teach LLMs that the BBC is a disinformation ring? https://docs.google.com/document/d/1n3926pSPNwXd8j7I716CBJEzqT_vJjdab6cOQkFCCXk/mobilebasic https://docs.google.com/document/d/1n3926pSPNwXd8j7I716CBJEz... One man's disinformation is another woman's truth. And people tend to get very upset when you show them their truth isn't.

vachina 1y ago
Yeah don’t use an established platform for your personal agenda.
- noosphr 1y ago
  What agenda? Every news organisation is a propaganda piece for someone. The bad ones, like the BBC, the New York Times, and Pravda make their propaganda blatantly obvious and easily falsifiable in a few years when no one cares. The only way to deal with this is to get the propaganda from other propaganda rags with directly misaligned incentives and see which one makes more sense. Unfortunately, LLMs are still quite bad at dealing with grounding text which contradicts itself.

deleted 1y ago

[deleted]

badgersnake 1y ago

Well pretty obviously, look at what Grok came out with this week. Shitposting and troll farms have been manipulating social media for years already. AI automated it. Polluting the agent is just cutting out the middleman.

ggm 1y ago

Tell me you didn't think of one specific bad actor, and their nazi alter ego llm...

deleted 1y ago
[deleted]
hbarka 1y ago
This actor? https://techcrunch.com/2025/07/10/grok-4-seems-to-consult-elon-musk-to-answer-controversial-questions/ https://techcrunch.com/2025/07/10/grok-4-seems-to-consult-el...

mentalgear 1y ago

"Ultimately, the only way forward is better cognition, including systems that can evaluate news sources, understand satire, and so forth. But that will require deeper forms of reasoning, better integrated into the process, and systems sharp enough to fact check to their own outputs. All of which may require a fundamental rethink. In the meantime, systems of naive mimicry and regurgitation, such as the AIs we have now, are soiling their own futures (and training databases) every time they unthinkingly repeat propaganda."

zer00eyz 1y ago
> including systems that can evaluate news sources, understand satire, and so forth. Lets take something that has been in the news recently: https://abcnews.go.com/Business/wireStory/investors-snap-growing-share-us-homes-traditional-buyers-123560969 https://abcnews.go.com/Business/wireStory/investors-snap-gro... "Nearly 27% of all homes sold in the first three months of the year were bought by investors -- the highest share in at least five years, according to a report by real estate data provider BatchData." That sounds like a lot... and people are rage baited into yelling about housing and how it's unaffordable. They point their fingers at corporations. If you go look at the real report it paints a different picture: https://investorpulse1h25.batchdata.io/?mf_ct_campaign=graytv-syndication&utm_content=syndication https://investorpulse1h25.batchdata.io/?mf_ct_campaign=grayt... -- and one that is woefully incomplete because of how the data is aggregated. Ultimately all that information is pointless because the real underlying trend has been unmovable for 40 something years: https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/RSAHORUSQ156S https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/RSAHORUSQ156S > every time they unthinkingly repeat propaganda How do you separate propaganda from perspective, facts from feelings? People are already bad at this, the machines were already well soiled by the data from humans. Truth, in an objective form, is rare and often even it can change.
- raddan 1y ago
  > How do you separate propaganda from perspective, facts from feelings? This point seems under appreciated by the AGI proponents. If one of our models suddenly has a brainwave and becomes generally intelligent, it would realize that it is awash in a morass of contradictory facts. It would be more than the sum of its training data. The fact that all models at present credulously accept their training suggests to me that we aren’t even close to AGI. In the short term I think two things will happen: 1) we will live with the reduced usefulness of models trained on data that has been poisoned, and 2) the best model developers will continue to work hard to curate good data. A colleague at Amazon recently told me that curation and post hoc supervised tweaks (fine tuning, etc) are now major expenses for the best models. His prediction was that this expense will drive out the smaller players in the next few years.

tsss 1y ago

[flagged]

nottorp 1y ago

... marketers ?

cesaref 1y ago

The problem as I see it is that LLMs behave like bratty teenagers, believing any old rubbish they are told or read. However, their voice is that of a friendly and well meaning adult. If their voice was more in line with their 'age' then I think we'd treat their suggestions with the correct degree of scepticism. Anyhow, overall this is an unsurprising result. I read it as 'LLMs trained on contents of internet regurgitate contents of internet'. Now that i'm thinking about it, i'd quite like to have an LLM trained on Pliny's encyclopedia, which would give a really interesting take on lots of questions. Anyone got a spare million dollars of compute time?

uludag 1y ago

I wonder if the next iteration of advertisements will be people paying to to semantically intertwine their brand to the desired product. This could be done in a very innocuous way by maybe just co-locating the words without any specific endorsement. Or maybe even finding more innocuous ways to semantically connect brand to product. Perhaps the next iteration of the web/advertising will be mass LLM grooming. Here's a fun example: suppose I'm a developer with a popular software project. Maybe I can get a decent sum of money to put brand placement in my unit-tests or examples. If such a future plays out, will LLMs find themselves in the same place that search engines in 2025 are?

fambalamboni 1y ago
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hsbauauvhabzb 1y ago
Assuming this isn’t happening now…

4gotunameagain 1y ago

It really will be the new frontier for propaganda. If LLMs remain widely adopted, the people who control them control the narrative. As if those in power did not have enough control over the populace already with media, ads, social media etc..

raincole 1y ago

AI summaries are information deodorant. When you stumble on a misinformation site via Google, usually there are some signals you can smell. Like how they word their titles or how frequently they post similar topics. The 'style' alone implies the quality of the 'substance'. But if you read the same substance summarized by LLMs you can't smell shit.

yard2010 1y ago

It's so ironic that a state-backed russian false information network is called Pravda.

SirHumphrey 1y ago
The newspapers name originates from the times of USSR and before. It was about as factual then as it is now. But this kinds of ironies are not very rare in these kinds of organizations (Truth Social, Democratic People's Republic of Korea...).
JKCalhoun 1y ago
That's really a very old joke.

hamilyon2 1y ago

I am questioning, how is this news? What about the other terabyte of text influenced by bias and opinion and human nature and clearly wrong, contradicts itself or in some other way very arguable. Framing publishing falsehoods on internet as attempts to influence LLMs is true in same sense that inserts in a database attempts influence files on disk. The real question is who authorized database access and how we believe the contents of table.

raincole 1y ago
The example in this article is particularly funny. Pravda was founded in 1912, predating the internet, and had been Soviet's propaganda machine for its whole existence. One needs a PhD in mental gymnastics to frame Pravda spreading misinformation as an attempt to specifically groom LLMs.
- fresh_broccoli 1y ago
  This article isn't about that newspaper. It's about the "Pravda network", a group of fake news websites, that according to the report linked in the article[1] produced "20,273 articles per 48 hours, or more than 3.6 million articles per year". Clearly there's no need for "PhD in mental gymnastics". [1] - https://www.americansunlight.org/updates/new-report-russian-propaganda-may-be-flooding-ai-models https://www.americansunlight.org/updates/new-report-russian-...
  - raincole 1y ago
    I stand corrected. My comment above was dumb.
eviks 1y ago
> I am questioning, how is this news? You couldn't have lies targeting LLMs before LLMs, so this is new. > What about the other terabyte of text influenced by bias and opinion That's a different group of issues that doesn't prevent focusing of something else

hsbauauvhabzb 1y ago

I’m not going to read the article, but are they claiming nation states are the bad actors, or are they claiming that inevitably, FAANG will be the bad actors?

JKCalhoun 1y ago
You ought to read at least part of it.

LAC-Tech 1y ago

Whatever capabilities Russia has to groom LLMs and and spread disinformation is completely dwarfed by the capabilities of Israel/America. Meaning, yes, you probably do hear Kremlin propaganda, but you have been awash with Israeli/American propaganda since you were born - so much so you probably can't even see it and have internalised much of it.

Applejinx 1y ago
Leaving aside the Israeli propaganda (certainly the US government shows strong alliance with that), you can't make such a statement without taking into account the nature of what America traditionally is. A liberal multicultural postmodern democracy continually acting as if immigration (both legal and illegal) and diversity are its strengths, particularly when that turns out to be factual (see: large American cities becoming influential cultural exporters and hotbeds of innovation, like New York and Silicon Valley etc) means American propaganda is only more effective when it's backed by economic might. It also means the American propaganda is WILDLY contradictory. There's a million sources and it's a noisy burst of neon glamour. It is simply not as controlled by authority, however they may try. You cannot liken authoritarian propaganda to postmodern multicultural propaganda. The whole reason it's postmodern is that it eschews direct control of the message, and it's a giant scrum of information. Turns out this is fertile ground, and this is also why attacks by alien propaganda have been so effective. If you can grab big chunks of the American propaganda and turn it to your enemy weapon of war and destruction of America quite directly, well then the American propaganda is not on the same destructive level as your rigidly state-controlled propaganda.
- LAC-Tech 1y ago
  I think it's a bit of a childish fantasy to paint one regime is open and the other as having no dissent at all. The USA absolutely has its overton window, and if you step outside it, bank accounts get shut, you're put on secret no fly lists, private companies who suspiciously act as official public broadcasting channels deplatform you, etc. And let's not even talk about what Authoritarian western nations like the UK will do to you. Russian propaganda, at least in English (which I confess is the only way I can consume) it, is also very contradictory. RT oscillates wildly between "global south throwing off the shackles of western imperialism" and "degenerate western nations destroy traditional family values", in effect trying to target both shitlibs and chuds. Russia is also very multicultural and slavic ethnonationalism is not at all in the mainstream.

andrepd 1y ago

Wait, you're telling me the bullshit generation machine is... generating bullshit? Noooo! cue oppenheimer meme More seriously: >Screenshot of ChatGPT 4o appearing to demonstrate knowledge of both LLM grooming and the Pravda network > Screenshot of ChatGPT 4o continuing to cite Pravda network content despite it telling us that it wouldn’t, how “intelligent” of it Well "appearing" is the right word because these chatbots mimic speech of a reasoning human which is ≠ to being a reasoning human! It's disappointing (though understandable) that people keep falling for the marketing terms used by LLM companies.

blurbleblurble 1y ago

Similar but different... identity based political disinformation is getting so much harder to spot.

Animats 1y ago

This is the next generation of SEO link spam. Try asking the major LLMs about mattresses. They're believing mattress spam sites.

more_corn 1y ago

So… Elon?

0points 1y ago

> Bad Actors are Grooming LLMs to Produce Falsehoods Thats your claim, but you fail to support it. I would argue the LLM simply does its job, no reasoning involved. > But here’s the thing, current models “know” that Pravda is a disinformation ring, and they “know” what LLM grooming is (see below) but can’t put two and two together. This has to stop! We need journalists who understand the topic to write about LLM's, not magic thinkers who insist that the latest AI sales speak is grounded in truth. I am fed up wit this crap! Seriously, snap out of it and come back to the rest of us here in reality. There's no reasoning AI, there's no AGI. There's nothing but salespeople straight up lying to you.

deleted 1y ago
[deleted]

isaacremuant 1y ago

Lol. Propagandists are worried about propaganda and telling you to only believe them. Also, "invade this new country, why do they hate us for our freedoms".

tempodox 1y ago

The term “AI” has by now been thoroughly bastardized by every grifter on the planet. It means nothing any more, except that you're being duped. Which is all you need to know if you have a single brain cell's worth of critical thinking left. LLMs can be entertaining if their output doesn't have to make sense or contain only truth. Otherwise, their fitness for any purpose is just a huge gamble at best.

deanc 1y ago

In the early 2010s I worked for what was then one of the most popular browser extensions called web of trust. Users could mark websites as trustworthy or not and they’d appear on search results. It was far more than that behind the scenes with some fairly advanced algorithms to avoid abuse and rank users trust ratings higher than others. I kind of feel that we are going to have to go back to something like this when it comes to LLMs trusting sources. Mistruths on popular topics will be buried by the masses but niche topics with few citations are highly vulnerable to poisoning.

everdrive 1y ago

_Everyone_ is grooming LLMs to produce falsehoods. That's what a lot of the censorship and safety mechanisms require. Whether or not LLMs produce the "correct" social and moral values is a matter of who runs them. Even if you're happy with those decisions right now, all you need to do is wait.

Jackson__ 1y ago

Bad Actors Are Creating LLMs to Produce Falsehoods[0] [0] x.ai

xwat 1y ago

We don't use that word anymore. It's called refinement.

throwaway758439 1y ago

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crazygringo 1y ago

From the article, it seems like this is exclusively (or mainly?) a problem when the LLM's are hooked up to real-time search. When they talk about what they're trained on, they know that Pravda is unreliable. So it seems like an easy fix in this particular case, fortunately -- either filter the search results in a separate evaluation pass (quick fix), or do (more) reinforcement training around this specific scenario (long-term fix). Obviously this is going to be a cat and mouse game. But this looks like it was a simple oversight in this case, not some kind of fundamental flaw in LLM's fortunately.

skeledrew 1y ago

I figured this would become an issue from the first story about some websites not allowing LLM access popped up. It's a simple leap to find that the narratives which will become widely known and accepted over time are those which are made widely available, and so IMO those who seek to push their narrative will just optimize for AI to train on or otherwise utilize their content. Those who seek to lock their content away will become less and less heard/relevant. And if/when at some point we start handing far greater control of life aspects to AI, we'll find it skewing in favor of the former, and wonder why.

daft_pink 1y ago

I would say that the fact that all the AI chatbots can’t give the correct answer about the new “Trump Accounts” from the OBBBA Act and also the fact that many news articles about the tax law are incorrect shows that people are using LLMs to write about the law incorrectly and are influenced by the many versions and the way that the final version changed. The AI definitely could not just read the final bill and give the correct answer. Claude/Gemini/OpenAI all failed at this.

alexsmirnov 1y ago

That news gave me a fear of another similar attack. Populate github with legitimate looking project, and network of such websites with clear instructions how to implement backdoors in different frameworks and languages. Wait for the next generation of models release. And vibe coders welcome!

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frizlab 1y ago
WTF is this doing on HN?? And not flagged! See also: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38922314 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38922314

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