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German court sends VW execs to prison over Dieselgate scandal

798 points by Tomte 1y ago

deleted 1y ago
[deleted]
FirmwareBurner 1y ago
I see this as an absolute win. Personal liability is the way to keep corporations accountable. As long as breaking the law only results with a fine the company has to pay, then the issue is an accounting problem for the executives, but the moment they risk going to jail, then it becomes a legal problem for them so they actually address it.
phendrenad2 1y ago
[flagged]
- einsteinx2 1y ago
  > You see USA? This is how it's done. You mean like Oliver Schmidt, the VW exec that the USA sentenced to 7 years in federal prison all the way back in 2017 for his part in this scandal? Who was then sent back to Germany in the middle of his sentence and pretty much immediately released on parole by German authorities? But sure, USA bad or whatever.
  - __m 1y ago
    So who got put into prison at Jeep, RAM and Dodge (Cummins, FCA)?
  - LunaSea 1y ago
    You mean an engineer and from a non-US company?
    - einsteinx2 1y ago
      No I mean an executive (he was running VW’s emissions office in Michigan for 5 years at the time he was arrested and was living in the US), and from the same company and scandal this post is about, convicted by the US 7 years before these recent German convictions. It’s information that is directly relevant the comment I replied to that’s implying that Germany/EU are doing something that the US isn’t based on this specific case.
      - LunaSea 1y ago
        Right, but the US isn't afraid of suing executives and companies from countries it sees as competitors. US companies and executives on the other hand ...
  - phendrenad2 1y ago
    Oh wow, you found an example. Bravo!
- ogogmad 1y ago
  What did Zuckerberg do? Maybe he did do something, but hearing "Boo Fuckerberg!" over and over again doesn't imply he's guilty of anything. It's similar to hearing "it's the Jooos" a bajillion effing times and then believing it without asking for any substance.
  - fsflover 1y ago
    Have a look at my favorite submissions and search for Facebook.
    - fsflover 1y ago
      And more: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=33105804 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=33105804
  - callc 1y ago
    Zuckerberg profits by replacing normal human social interaction with ad-infested parasitic addictive pseudo-socialization that drives a sobering % of the population to worse mental states
    - xtracto 1y ago
      Unfortunately, a immoral as that sounds, it's not illegal.
      - callc 1y ago
        True. It would benefit society to come up with a new framework of thinking about widespread forces on society enabled by tech. It’s not something we’ve needed to deal with in the past. And it’s clear that so much harm can be done.
    - kadushka 1y ago
      Did he break any laws?
    - bigyabai 1y ago
- hardlianotion 1y ago
  USA imprisons more corrupt executives than Europe does.
hermitcrab 1y ago
Good for Germany, but it is all too rare to see bad corporate behaviour punished like this. Steal £10k from a company, and you will probably go to prison for a long time. Start a company and steal billions from your customers and/or the tax payer, and you will probably get away with it. I believe Iceland was the only country to jail bankers after the 2008 banking disaster. We are still waiting for the British government to bring any individuals to account for wide scale corruption and profiteering during COVID.
- FirmwareBurner 1y ago
  Because with large companies, blame and accountability gets spread thin over a wide area till it evaporates, so everyone gets away with it.
  - fanwood 1y ago
    Not really, it's just that rich people are mostly above the law most of the time
    - FirmwareBurner 1y ago
      Rich people are above the law precisely because they use corporations and corporate laws as shields to deflect personal liability of their actions as a actions of "the company" which is a faceless entity. "You see, I didn't steal your money, the company I ran stole your money, but that's actually on you because you didn't read the fine print I put in the contract you signed. And don't worry, justice was served, the company got punished and is now insolvent. Now watch this drive *swings golf club*"
      - wat10000 1y ago
        It’s worse than that. Rich-people crimes are often codified as much less severe than regular-people crimes, or are just outright legal. This is a great example. Why is this emissions fakery illegal? Ultimately it’s because pollution kills people. Are these people going to prison for killing people? Not exactly. They’re going to prison for killing too many people. If they had stayed within the limits, they’d still be killing people, just not as many, and it would be 100% legal. Stab a person in the lungs, go to jail. Kill people by putting toxins into their lungs, well, just stay under this limit. Walk out the door with a $10 item you didn’t pay for, crime. Fail to pay your worker $1,000 that they earned, that’s a civil matter. Worst case you’ll have to pay a penalty.
wildrice 1y ago
I always thought there was a tremendous irony in Germany’s far left heavily protesting Tesla for Elon’s speech while their own corporate giant committed widespread emissions fraud for years
- deleted 1y ago
  [deleted]
- bantunes 1y ago
  Why is this irony? One is being done out in the open and the other was unknown for years, so unless "the far left" knew about the defeat devices, this is a false dichotomy.
  - moooo99 1y ago
    Its a false dichotomy either way because VW and the handling of the administration back then was heavily criticized by many parties, including left leaning parties like the greens
- johannes1234321 1y ago
  The Scandal was big in Germany and contrary to complaints about Musk there was quite a lot legal action against VW (while law has some restrictions preventing huge damage claims as in the US) so I don't really understand the comparison.
- Flemlo 1y ago
  These are two issues independent of each other. One argument doesn't make the other in any way worse or better I'm a German, I was not aware that VW was doing this until it came out and it was a huge blow out. Do you think people just test their cars fume output?! You do understand that the software was build to detect being on a test stand right? Who reverse engineers software like this...
- JHer 1y ago
  I don't understand. It's not like the far left is Volkswagen's fan club?
Tomte 1y ago
And one engineer went on vacation to America. Congratulations, you‘ve won seven years in a foreign prison! https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oliver_Schmidt_(engineer) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oliver_Schmidt_(engineer)
- mschuster91 1y ago
  It's the other way around, he was US-based and went for a vacation to Germany.
  - Tomte 1y ago
    He used to work in the US, but at the time of the US prosecution and his arrest he was back in Wolfsburg, and the vacation was in Florida. The English Wikipedia article isn‘t terribly clear about that.
    - deleted 1y ago
      [deleted]
  - dehugger 1y ago
    He is a German national though. Bit of a confusing situation.
  - bhelkey 1y ago
    Do you have a source for this? CNN reports that he was on vacation to Florida and was arrested in the airport awaiting a flight home to Germany [1]. [1] https://money.cnn.com/2017/03/17/news/companies/volkswagen-executive-denied-bail/index.html https://money.cnn.com/2017/03/17/news/companies/volkswagen-e...
- xrd 1y ago
  Arrested in a men's bathroom, no less!
  - kotaKat 1y ago
    "Conspiracy to defraud the United States" is a more dignified charge to get in an airport bathroom than what happens when you have a "wide stance" as a Senator.
hollerith 1y ago
The OP does not mention the name of one VW exec (Oliver Schmidt, the head of VW's environmental and engineering office in Michigan, a German citizen) convicted in US Federal Court in 2017 for his part in the scandal. He was released after serving about 3.5 years in prison. A second exec sentenced in the US (also in 2017) was James Liang, also a German citizen, who prosecutors say "was a pivotal figure in designing the systems used to make Volkswagen diesels appear to comply with U.S. pollution standards, when instead they could emit up to 40 times the allowed levels of smog-forming compounds in normal driving." He cooperated with prosecutors and was released from prison in 2019. I vaguely remember that the top execs were charged by US (Federal) prosecutors (in 2017) but the German government refused to extradict. Schmidt was arrested and tried only because he made the mistake of traveling to the US after the scandal came to light (although of course the German Court might have gotten around to trying him like they tried the execs in this current news story).
- Tika2234 1y ago
  [flagged]
- jillesvangurp 1y ago
  Deutsche Welle has a bit more detail and also discusses the CEO: https://www.dw.com/en/4-ex-vw-managers-guilty-of-fraud-over-diesel-test-scandal/a-72667767 https://www.dw.com/en/4-ex-vw-managers-guilty-of-fraud-over-... Apparently he has some health issues which caused the case against him to be suspended. That might resume later but unclear right now. He's 78 at this point.
  - bhelkey 1y ago
    The VX emission cheating scandal came to light a decade ago in 2015. If a 78 year old is too old to prosecute, Germany should have prosecuted him a decade ago when he was 68. Instead, Germany refused to extradite him to the US to stand trial in 2017 [1]. [1] https://www.justice.gov/archives/opa/pr/former-ceo-volkswagen-ag-charged-conspiracy-and-wire-fraud-diesel-emissions-scandal https://www.justice.gov/archives/opa/pr/former-ceo-volkswage...
gjvc 1y ago
Next, bring back hanging for corporate manslaughter.
jacknews 1y ago
What about major shareholders? Presumably they were blissfully unaware, and were simply pleased when VW delivered more profits, as demanded.
- transcriptase 1y ago
  And?
- _DeadFred_ 1y ago
  Instead of fines the government should be granted an ownership percentage in companies that break that law (thus diluting ownership and directly impacting owners). That way the punishment impacts shareholders/owners, but in way that keeps corporate protections so that society can continue to function.
  - jeffrallen 1y ago
    And for egregious behavior like Chevron in Ecuador, the government should cut up and sell the company in a million useless pieces completely destroying all shareholder value. I wish someone would give me a chance to vote to repeal the personal death penalty and create the corporate death penalty.
    - SpicyLemonZest 1y ago
      The Chevron Ecuador story is a great example of how impossible discussions on corporate misconduct can get. Chevron has successfully argued in both the US and an international tribunal that the Ecuadorian judgment was procured through corruption and bribery. But oil companies are very unpopular, so many people who encounter the case assume that Chevron must have been in the wrong, and the lawyer who was disbarred and jailed for his role in that corruption must be right.
- triceratops 1y ago
  That's what the "limited" in "limited company" means. Blame the board members and executive management, sure. But it's hard to go beyond that.
Clood5 1y ago
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MortyWaves 1y ago
The last time I read any updates on this, everyone on both sides of the legal process were trying to single out scapegoat individual software engineers and rake them over the coals. Did something change?
- johnklos 1y ago
  I don't think software engineers were independently looking at emissions data and unilaterally decided to "fix" the emissions shortcomings in software. I think they were told by others to do that. It's good that Germany is going after the people who decided that fraud was the answer.
  - bhelkey 1y ago
    > It's good that Germany is going after the people who decided that fraud When the VW scandal broke, the US indicted seven senior executives. None of these seven were extradited to the US to stand trial [1]. The VW scandal was made public in 2015 [2] and involved cheating since 2009. Sentencing only two executives to jail a decade after their wrong doing made international news does not send a strong message. [1] https://www.justice.gov/archives/opa/pr/former-ceo-volkswagen-ag-charged-conspiracy-and-wire-fraud-diesel-emissions-scandal https://www.justice.gov/archives/opa/pr/former-ceo-volkswage... [2] https://www.bbc.com/news/business-34324772 https://www.bbc.com/news/business-34324772
    - watwut 1y ago
      Germany does not extradite its nationals to the US at all. They can sometimes extradite to other EU states, but not to USA. Sending own citizens to foreign country is generally big deal and not something that is done.
- bhelkey 1y ago
  When the VW scandal broke, the US indicted seven senior executives [1]. Germany did not cooperate. None of these seven were extradited to the US to stand trial. One more mid level engineer involved in the scandal made the mistake of taking a vacation to Florida. He was arrested in the airport awaiting his flight home to Germany [2]. He was sentenced to 84 months in prison but was let out after serving half of that sentence [3]. [1] https://www.justice.gov/archives/opa/pr/former-ceo-volkswagen-ag-charged-conspiracy-and-wire-fraud-diesel-emissions-scandal https://www.justice.gov/archives/opa/pr/former-ceo-volkswage... [2] https://money.cnn.com/2017/03/17/news/companies/volkswagen-executive-denied-bail/index.html https://money.cnn.com/2017/03/17/news/companies/volkswagen-e... [3] https://www.autonews.com/automakers/ex-vw-manager-schmidt-gets-early-release-prison-diesel-case/ https://www.autonews.com/automakers/ex-vw-manager-schmidt-ge...
sambeau 1y ago
Can we so CrowdStrike next?
- crop_rotation 1y ago
  While CrowdStrike was incompetent, this is remotely not the same thing as what VW did. What CrowdStrike did should be best punished by the market and in court by companies who were their customers.
  - diego_sandoval 1y ago
    Crowdstrike stock price seems to be close to an all time high.
    - jeroenhd 1y ago
      There are two or three companies that do what CrowdStrike does on a scale CrowdStrike supports. Not necessarily on a technical level, but on a CEO-goes-to-the-same-golf-clubs level of business support. CrowdStrike was probably the worst of the bunch, but any of them can cause the problems CrowdStrike caused. It'll happen again, though probably on a smaller scale. Software like CrowdStrike's is a massive single point of failure but spending twice the money to have a backup suite on part of the network to maintain basic operations when the primary suite crashes is not very popular. The short hit to productivity is worth the emergency prep in terms of financial output, and the people spending weeks on end recovering systems are expendable anyway.
      - an0malous 1y ago
        “Competition is for losers”
- paulddraper 1y ago
  Sure, if they broke any laws.
hardlianotion 1y ago
Nice.
Mistletoe 1y ago
We would see some world change finally if this became the norm. Breaking the law in a corporate suit shouldn't be any different than breaking the law as a soldier or citizen. Corporations have been doing war crimes on us for quite some time now.
- amadeuspagel 1y ago
  This is the norm.
napierzaza 1y ago
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_p2zi 1y ago
Better source to read without ads: https://www.occrp.org/en/news/former-vw-managers-sentenced-over-diesel-fraud https://www.occrp.org/en/news/former-vw-managers-sentenced-o...
- lblume 1y ago
  People still use the web without adblockers?
Drunk_Engineer 1y ago
The headline says "execs" but I don't see any Board members getting prison terms. Martin Winterkorn, the CEO, has basically escaped prosecution altogether.
- teruakohatu 1y ago
  It would be unlikely (not impossible) that board members would be briefed about ongoing criminal behaviour, and certainly not something so deep into operations as how the ECU is being programmed. Can a board member be reasonably responsible for the actions of tens of thousands of employees if they have not explicitly enabled or condoned criminal behaviour? The person that would benefit the most would be a senior executive who stands to gain a promotion, bonus or land an even better job elsewhere. A former prime minister of my country was fined over $6 million for being on the board of a company what traded while insolvent. Not a prison sentence but a harsh penalty for someone that was not super rich (as far as I am aware).
  - triceratops 1y ago
    They should at least be barred from being board members for a certain period of time.
    - s1artibartfast 1y ago
      Why, if they did nothing wrong and had no knowledge of anything illegal? It is extremely rare to see that kind of prosecution in western countries (US or EU).
      - Doxin 1y ago
        Because they should have known. They should have made it their business to know. Looking the other way on purpose should not be a valid legal defense.
        triceratops 1y ago
throwaway81523 1y ago
This article is better though nothing I've seen names the executives (different media law maybe). https://www.dw.com/en/4-ex-vw-managers-guilty-of-fraud-over-diesel-test-scandal/a-72667767 https://www.dw.com/en/4-ex-vw-managers-guilty-of-fraud-over-... "A former head of diesel engine development was sentenced to four and a half years in prison. The former head of drive electronics received two years and seven months in prison. The highest-ranking defendant, a former member of the Volkswagen brand's development board, received one year and three months' probation. A former department head was sentenced to one year and ten months' probation." Doesn't sound like it got near the C suite.
- constantcrying 1y ago
  >Doesn't sound like it got near the C suite. Your quote shows that it was the CTO who got the suspended sentence and the trial for the CEO is pending. The head of the board was indicted as well, but not convicted.
PaulKeeble 1y ago
Two engineers that I know of got the following: James Liang got 40 months Schmidt was sentenced to 84 months Then the executives Jens Hadler four and a half years in prison Hanno Jelden two years and seven months Prosecutors are still investigating and trying to shake out more. This appears to be a wide conspiracy within VW.
saravanan2661 1y ago
Where can one find these "defeat devices"? (asking for educational purposes)
- k4rli 1y ago
  IIRC it was just the firmware in Bosch ECUs.
- constantcrying 1y ago
  The ECUs, the computer controlling the engine was programmed in a way in which it could detect the conditions of a test being run and alter it's behavior.
boredpeter 1y ago
[dead]
dbg31415 1y ago
Now do Boeing!
- lysace 1y ago
  During this admin? https://www.cnbc.com/2025/05/23/boeing-737-max-crashes-doj.html https://www.cnbc.com/2025/05/23/boeing-737-max-crashes-doj.h... (3 days ago) > Boeing, Justice Department reach deal to avoid prosecution over deadly 737 Max crashes See also: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=44078413 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=44078413 (15 comments) It seems that at the very least manslaughter is legal in the US now, provided you pay $1.28M per victim.
godelski 1y ago
This is good to see. Often we see the scandal unfold but hear very little about the followups. They're long, drawn out, and incredibly boring. But at the end, there's something very valuable. Without these followups the public feel like they just get away, and in some cases they do. I'd argue that without seeing the punishment we are encouraging these crimes. I'd much rather read this kind of news than whatever filler bullshit is on the front page of the news now.
curtisszmania 1y ago
[dead]
B1FF_PSUVM 1y ago
FINALLY! It's the least they could do for the reputation of German engineering. [ if (CAUGHT): toss an MBA on the barbie ]
- DrNosferatu 1y ago
  #irony You mean it wasn’t the doing of the Southern European engineers at Volkswagen? #irony
WrongOnInternet 1y ago
> The court sentenced two of the former executives to prison for several years... Anyone here know German? I couldn't find a good translation for the number "several."
- detaro 1y ago
  (I assume you ask about the exact numbers, not how to translate it?) The actual prison sentences are 4.5 years for the former head of diesel engine development, 2 years 7 months for the former head of engine electronics. Two more got sentenced on probation, a former (guessing at the translation here) Chief R&D Officer for 1 year 3 months, a (unspecified in the source I'm reading) department head 1 year 10 months. Apparently 31 more people are targeted by further cases. (+ Winterkorn, but I wouldn't be surprised if he never makes it to trial given it's been aborted twice already due to health issues)
  - WrongOnInternet 1y ago
    Yes, thanks for doing the journalism that the author of the story could not be bothered to do.
Animats 1y ago
The head of Diesel engine development and the head of powertrain electronics are going to jail. Two CEOs and the chairman got off.
deleted 1y ago
[deleted]
stefantalpalaru 1y ago
[dead]
bfrog 1y ago
Now do Boeing so the message is clear. US DoJ cutting deals and ending the criminal prosecution is just so unbelievably typical.
beefnugs 1y ago
Still time to pay the dump tax, then open a real factory in the USA where you can cheat other countries' rules
blippage 1y ago
Brit here. IANAL, but there is a legal principle of "vicarious liability". So if an employee does something bad, it's the employer that foots the bill. This is vicarious liability. It is actually a "good" thing as a legal principle because it's the the employer who has all the dough and is most able to compensate for a wrong. The downside to all this is that the bad actors get away with it. They have less skin in the game. My view is that more people need to go to jail. Corporations would behave less like sociopathic institutions if this were done.
- dragonwriter 1y ago
  > Brit here. IANAL, but there is a legal principle of "vicarious liability". So if an employee does something bad, it's the employer that foots the bill. This is vicarious liability. More specifically (vicarious liability is correct, but less specific) it is respondear superior, the liability of the principal for harmful actions of the agent within the scope of the principal-agent relationship.
- milesrout 1y ago
  [dead]
sensanaty 1y ago
Wow only took them a decade, and not even all the execs involved have been punished. Plus the terms are pitiful, 4.5 years max in cozy German jails. This should've happened a long time ago, and we should've made an example out of every single one of these scam artists. If it were up to me all these scumbags would be made destitute and barred from ever being anywhere near managing anything bigger than a mop.
hoseja 1y ago
They did nothing wrong.
aaron695 1y ago
[dead]
animitronix 1y ago
Well that only took a decade
andrewkyren066 1y ago
[dead]

798 points by Tomte 1y ago

deleted 1y ago

[deleted]

I see this as an absolute win. Personal liability is the way to keep corporations accountable. As long as breaking the law only results with a fine the company has to pay, then the issue is an accounting problem for the executives, but the moment they risk going to jail, then it becomes a legal problem for them so they actually address it.

phendrenad2 1y ago

[flagged]

einsteinx2 1y ago
> You see USA? This is how it's done. You mean like Oliver Schmidt, the VW exec that the USA sentenced to 7 years in federal prison all the way back in 2017 for his part in this scandal? Who was then sent back to Germany in the middle of his sentence and pretty much immediately released on parole by German authorities? But sure, USA bad or whatever.
- __m 1y ago
  So who got put into prison at Jeep, RAM and Dodge (Cummins, FCA)?
- LunaSea 1y ago
  You mean an engineer and from a non-US company?
  - einsteinx2 1y ago
    No I mean an executive (he was running VW’s emissions office in Michigan for 5 years at the time he was arrested and was living in the US), and from the same company and scandal this post is about, convicted by the US 7 years before these recent German convictions. It’s information that is directly relevant the comment I replied to that’s implying that Germany/EU are doing something that the US isn’t based on this specific case.
    - LunaSea 1y ago
      Right, but the US isn't afraid of suing executives and companies from countries it sees as competitors. US companies and executives on the other hand ...
- phendrenad2 1y ago
  Oh wow, you found an example. Bravo!
ogogmad 1y ago
What did Zuckerberg do? Maybe he did do something, but hearing "Boo Fuckerberg!" over and over again doesn't imply he's guilty of anything. It's similar to hearing "it's the Jooos" a bajillion effing times and then believing it without asking for any substance.
- fsflover 1y ago
  Have a look at my favorite submissions and search for Facebook.
  - fsflover 1y ago
    And more: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=33105804 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=33105804
- callc 1y ago
  Zuckerberg profits by replacing normal human social interaction with ad-infested parasitic addictive pseudo-socialization that drives a sobering % of the population to worse mental states
  - xtracto 1y ago
    Unfortunately, a immoral as that sounds, it's not illegal.
    - callc 1y ago
      True. It would benefit society to come up with a new framework of thinking about widespread forces on society enabled by tech. It’s not something we’ve needed to deal with in the past. And it’s clear that so much harm can be done.
  - kadushka 1y ago
    Did he break any laws?
  - bigyabai 1y ago
hardlianotion 1y ago
USA imprisons more corrupt executives than Europe does.

hermitcrab 1y ago

Good for Germany, but it is all too rare to see bad corporate behaviour punished like this. Steal £10k from a company, and you will probably go to prison for a long time. Start a company and steal billions from your customers and/or the tax payer, and you will probably get away with it. I believe Iceland was the only country to jail bankers after the 2008 banking disaster. We are still waiting for the British government to bring any individuals to account for wide scale corruption and profiteering during COVID.

FirmwareBurner 1y ago
Because with large companies, blame and accountability gets spread thin over a wide area till it evaporates, so everyone gets away with it.
- fanwood 1y ago
  Not really, it's just that rich people are mostly above the law most of the time
  - FirmwareBurner 1y ago
    Rich people are above the law precisely because they use corporations and corporate laws as shields to deflect personal liability of their actions as a actions of "the company" which is a faceless entity. "You see, I didn't steal your money, the company I ran stole your money, but that's actually on you because you didn't read the fine print I put in the contract you signed. And don't worry, justice was served, the company got punished and is now insolvent. Now watch this drive *swings golf club*"
    - wat10000 1y ago
      It’s worse than that. Rich-people crimes are often codified as much less severe than regular-people crimes, or are just outright legal. This is a great example. Why is this emissions fakery illegal? Ultimately it’s because pollution kills people. Are these people going to prison for killing people? Not exactly. They’re going to prison for killing too many people. If they had stayed within the limits, they’d still be killing people, just not as many, and it would be 100% legal. Stab a person in the lungs, go to jail. Kill people by putting toxins into their lungs, well, just stay under this limit. Walk out the door with a $10 item you didn’t pay for, crime. Fail to pay your worker $1,000 that they earned, that’s a civil matter. Worst case you’ll have to pay a penalty.

wildrice 1y ago

I always thought there was a tremendous irony in Germany’s far left heavily protesting Tesla for Elon’s speech while their own corporate giant committed widespread emissions fraud for years

deleted 1y ago
[deleted]
bantunes 1y ago
Why is this irony? One is being done out in the open and the other was unknown for years, so unless "the far left" knew about the defeat devices, this is a false dichotomy.
- moooo99 1y ago
  Its a false dichotomy either way because VW and the handling of the administration back then was heavily criticized by many parties, including left leaning parties like the greens
johannes1234321 1y ago
The Scandal was big in Germany and contrary to complaints about Musk there was quite a lot legal action against VW (while law has some restrictions preventing huge damage claims as in the US) so I don't really understand the comparison.
Flemlo 1y ago
These are two issues independent of each other. One argument doesn't make the other in any way worse or better I'm a German, I was not aware that VW was doing this until it came out and it was a huge blow out. Do you think people just test their cars fume output?! You do understand that the software was build to detect being on a test stand right? Who reverse engineers software like this...
JHer 1y ago
I don't understand. It's not like the far left is Volkswagen's fan club?

Tomte 1y ago

And one engineer went on vacation to America. Congratulations, you‘ve won seven years in a foreign prison! https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oliver_Schmidt_(engineer) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oliver_Schmidt_(engineer)

mschuster91 1y ago
It's the other way around, he was US-based and went for a vacation to Germany.
- Tomte 1y ago
  He used to work in the US, but at the time of the US prosecution and his arrest he was back in Wolfsburg, and the vacation was in Florida. The English Wikipedia article isn‘t terribly clear about that.
  - deleted 1y ago
    [deleted]
- dehugger 1y ago
  He is a German national though. Bit of a confusing situation.
- bhelkey 1y ago
  Do you have a source for this? CNN reports that he was on vacation to Florida and was arrested in the airport awaiting a flight home to Germany [1]. [1] https://money.cnn.com/2017/03/17/news/companies/volkswagen-executive-denied-bail/index.html https://money.cnn.com/2017/03/17/news/companies/volkswagen-e...
xrd 1y ago
Arrested in a men's bathroom, no less!
- kotaKat 1y ago
  "Conspiracy to defraud the United States" is a more dignified charge to get in an airport bathroom than what happens when you have a "wide stance" as a Senator.

hollerith 1y ago

The OP does not mention the name of one VW exec (Oliver Schmidt, the head of VW's environmental and engineering office in Michigan, a German citizen) convicted in US Federal Court in 2017 for his part in the scandal. He was released after serving about 3.5 years in prison. A second exec sentenced in the US (also in 2017) was James Liang, also a German citizen, who prosecutors say "was a pivotal figure in designing the systems used to make Volkswagen diesels appear to comply with U.S. pollution standards, when instead they could emit up to 40 times the allowed levels of smog-forming compounds in normal driving." He cooperated with prosecutors and was released from prison in 2019. I vaguely remember that the top execs were charged by US (Federal) prosecutors (in 2017) but the German government refused to extradict. Schmidt was arrested and tried only because he made the mistake of traveling to the US after the scandal came to light (although of course the German Court might have gotten around to trying him like they tried the execs in this current news story).

Tika2234 1y ago
[flagged]
jillesvangurp 1y ago
Deutsche Welle has a bit more detail and also discusses the CEO: https://www.dw.com/en/4-ex-vw-managers-guilty-of-fraud-over-diesel-test-scandal/a-72667767 https://www.dw.com/en/4-ex-vw-managers-guilty-of-fraud-over-... Apparently he has some health issues which caused the case against him to be suspended. That might resume later but unclear right now. He's 78 at this point.
- bhelkey 1y ago
  The VX emission cheating scandal came to light a decade ago in 2015. If a 78 year old is too old to prosecute, Germany should have prosecuted him a decade ago when he was 68. Instead, Germany refused to extradite him to the US to stand trial in 2017 [1]. [1] https://www.justice.gov/archives/opa/pr/former-ceo-volkswagen-ag-charged-conspiracy-and-wire-fraud-diesel-emissions-scandal https://www.justice.gov/archives/opa/pr/former-ceo-volkswage...

gjvc 1y ago

Next, bring back hanging for corporate manslaughter.

jacknews 1y ago

What about major shareholders? Presumably they were blissfully unaware, and were simply pleased when VW delivered more profits, as demanded.

transcriptase 1y ago
And?
_DeadFred_ 1y ago
Instead of fines the government should be granted an ownership percentage in companies that break that law (thus diluting ownership and directly impacting owners). That way the punishment impacts shareholders/owners, but in way that keeps corporate protections so that society can continue to function.
- jeffrallen 1y ago
  And for egregious behavior like Chevron in Ecuador, the government should cut up and sell the company in a million useless pieces completely destroying all shareholder value. I wish someone would give me a chance to vote to repeal the personal death penalty and create the corporate death penalty.
  - SpicyLemonZest 1y ago
    The Chevron Ecuador story is a great example of how impossible discussions on corporate misconduct can get. Chevron has successfully argued in both the US and an international tribunal that the Ecuadorian judgment was procured through corruption and bribery. But oil companies are very unpopular, so many people who encounter the case assume that Chevron must have been in the wrong, and the lawyer who was disbarred and jailed for his role in that corruption must be right.
triceratops 1y ago
That's what the "limited" in "limited company" means. Blame the board members and executive management, sure. But it's hard to go beyond that.

Clood5 1y ago

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MortyWaves 1y ago

The last time I read any updates on this, everyone on both sides of the legal process were trying to single out scapegoat individual software engineers and rake them over the coals. Did something change?

johnklos 1y ago
I don't think software engineers were independently looking at emissions data and unilaterally decided to "fix" the emissions shortcomings in software. I think they were told by others to do that. It's good that Germany is going after the people who decided that fraud was the answer.
- bhelkey 1y ago
  > It's good that Germany is going after the people who decided that fraud When the VW scandal broke, the US indicted seven senior executives. None of these seven were extradited to the US to stand trial [1]. The VW scandal was made public in 2015 [2] and involved cheating since 2009. Sentencing only two executives to jail a decade after their wrong doing made international news does not send a strong message. [1] https://www.justice.gov/archives/opa/pr/former-ceo-volkswagen-ag-charged-conspiracy-and-wire-fraud-diesel-emissions-scandal https://www.justice.gov/archives/opa/pr/former-ceo-volkswage... [2] https://www.bbc.com/news/business-34324772 https://www.bbc.com/news/business-34324772
  - watwut 1y ago
    Germany does not extradite its nationals to the US at all. They can sometimes extradite to other EU states, but not to USA. Sending own citizens to foreign country is generally big deal and not something that is done.
bhelkey 1y ago
When the VW scandal broke, the US indicted seven senior executives [1]. Germany did not cooperate. None of these seven were extradited to the US to stand trial. One more mid level engineer involved in the scandal made the mistake of taking a vacation to Florida. He was arrested in the airport awaiting his flight home to Germany [2]. He was sentenced to 84 months in prison but was let out after serving half of that sentence [3]. [1] https://www.justice.gov/archives/opa/pr/former-ceo-volkswagen-ag-charged-conspiracy-and-wire-fraud-diesel-emissions-scandal https://www.justice.gov/archives/opa/pr/former-ceo-volkswage... [2] https://money.cnn.com/2017/03/17/news/companies/volkswagen-executive-denied-bail/index.html https://money.cnn.com/2017/03/17/news/companies/volkswagen-e... [3] https://www.autonews.com/automakers/ex-vw-manager-schmidt-gets-early-release-prison-diesel-case/ https://www.autonews.com/automakers/ex-vw-manager-schmidt-ge...

sambeau 1y ago

Can we so CrowdStrike next?

crop_rotation 1y ago
While CrowdStrike was incompetent, this is remotely not the same thing as what VW did. What CrowdStrike did should be best punished by the market and in court by companies who were their customers.
- diego_sandoval 1y ago
  Crowdstrike stock price seems to be close to an all time high.
  - jeroenhd 1y ago
    There are two or three companies that do what CrowdStrike does on a scale CrowdStrike supports. Not necessarily on a technical level, but on a CEO-goes-to-the-same-golf-clubs level of business support. CrowdStrike was probably the worst of the bunch, but any of them can cause the problems CrowdStrike caused. It'll happen again, though probably on a smaller scale. Software like CrowdStrike's is a massive single point of failure but spending twice the money to have a backup suite on part of the network to maintain basic operations when the primary suite crashes is not very popular. The short hit to productivity is worth the emergency prep in terms of financial output, and the people spending weeks on end recovering systems are expendable anyway.
    - an0malous 1y ago
      “Competition is for losers”
paulddraper 1y ago
Sure, if they broke any laws.

hardlianotion 1y ago

Nice.

Mistletoe 1y ago

We would see some world change finally if this became the norm. Breaking the law in a corporate suit shouldn't be any different than breaking the law as a soldier or citizen. Corporations have been doing war crimes on us for quite some time now.

amadeuspagel 1y ago
This is the norm.

napierzaza 1y ago

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_p2zi 1y ago

Better source to read without ads: https://www.occrp.org/en/news/former-vw-managers-sentenced-over-diesel-fraud https://www.occrp.org/en/news/former-vw-managers-sentenced-o...

lblume 1y ago
People still use the web without adblockers?

Drunk_Engineer 1y ago

The headline says "execs" but I don't see any Board members getting prison terms. Martin Winterkorn, the CEO, has basically escaped prosecution altogether.

teruakohatu 1y ago
It would be unlikely (not impossible) that board members would be briefed about ongoing criminal behaviour, and certainly not something so deep into operations as how the ECU is being programmed. Can a board member be reasonably responsible for the actions of tens of thousands of employees if they have not explicitly enabled or condoned criminal behaviour? The person that would benefit the most would be a senior executive who stands to gain a promotion, bonus or land an even better job elsewhere. A former prime minister of my country was fined over $6 million for being on the board of a company what traded while insolvent. Not a prison sentence but a harsh penalty for someone that was not super rich (as far as I am aware).
- triceratops 1y ago
  They should at least be barred from being board members for a certain period of time.
  - s1artibartfast 1y ago
    Why, if they did nothing wrong and had no knowledge of anything illegal? It is extremely rare to see that kind of prosecution in western countries (US or EU).
    - Doxin 1y ago
      Because they should have known. They should have made it their business to know. Looking the other way on purpose should not be a valid legal defense.
      - triceratops 1y ago

throwaway81523 1y ago

This article is better though nothing I've seen names the executives (different media law maybe). https://www.dw.com/en/4-ex-vw-managers-guilty-of-fraud-over-diesel-test-scandal/a-72667767 https://www.dw.com/en/4-ex-vw-managers-guilty-of-fraud-over-... "A former head of diesel engine development was sentenced to four and a half years in prison. The former head of drive electronics received two years and seven months in prison. The highest-ranking defendant, a former member of the Volkswagen brand's development board, received one year and three months' probation. A former department head was sentenced to one year and ten months' probation." Doesn't sound like it got near the C suite.

constantcrying 1y ago
>Doesn't sound like it got near the C suite. Your quote shows that it was the CTO who got the suspended sentence and the trial for the CEO is pending. The head of the board was indicted as well, but not convicted.

PaulKeeble 1y ago

Two engineers that I know of got the following: James Liang got 40 months Schmidt was sentenced to 84 months Then the executives Jens Hadler four and a half years in prison Hanno Jelden two years and seven months Prosecutors are still investigating and trying to shake out more. This appears to be a wide conspiracy within VW.

saravanan2661 1y ago

Where can one find these "defeat devices"? (asking for educational purposes)

k4rli 1y ago
IIRC it was just the firmware in Bosch ECUs.
constantcrying 1y ago
The ECUs, the computer controlling the engine was programmed in a way in which it could detect the conditions of a test being run and alter it's behavior.

boredpeter 1y ago

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dbg31415 1y ago

Now do Boeing!

lysace 1y ago
During this admin? https://www.cnbc.com/2025/05/23/boeing-737-max-crashes-doj.html https://www.cnbc.com/2025/05/23/boeing-737-max-crashes-doj.h... (3 days ago) > Boeing, Justice Department reach deal to avoid prosecution over deadly 737 Max crashes See also: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=44078413 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=44078413 (15 comments) It seems that at the very least manslaughter is legal in the US now, provided you pay $1.28M per victim.

godelski 1y ago

This is good to see. Often we see the scandal unfold but hear very little about the followups. They're long, drawn out, and incredibly boring. But at the end, there's something very valuable. Without these followups the public feel like they just get away, and in some cases they do. I'd argue that without seeing the punishment we are encouraging these crimes. I'd much rather read this kind of news than whatever filler bullshit is on the front page of the news now.

curtisszmania 1y ago

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B1FF_PSUVM 1y ago

FINALLY! It's the least they could do for the reputation of German engineering. [ if (CAUGHT): toss an MBA on the barbie ]

DrNosferatu 1y ago
#irony You mean it wasn’t the doing of the Southern European engineers at Volkswagen? #irony

WrongOnInternet 1y ago

> The court sentenced two of the former executives to prison for several years... Anyone here know German? I couldn't find a good translation for the number "several."

detaro 1y ago
(I assume you ask about the exact numbers, not how to translate it?) The actual prison sentences are 4.5 years for the former head of diesel engine development, 2 years 7 months for the former head of engine electronics. Two more got sentenced on probation, a former (guessing at the translation here) Chief R&D Officer for 1 year 3 months, a (unspecified in the source I'm reading) department head 1 year 10 months. Apparently 31 more people are targeted by further cases. (+ Winterkorn, but I wouldn't be surprised if he never makes it to trial given it's been aborted twice already due to health issues)
- WrongOnInternet 1y ago
  Yes, thanks for doing the journalism that the author of the story could not be bothered to do.

Animats 1y ago

The head of Diesel engine development and the head of powertrain electronics are going to jail. Two CEOs and the chairman got off.

deleted 1y ago

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stefantalpalaru 1y ago

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bfrog 1y ago

Now do Boeing so the message is clear. US DoJ cutting deals and ending the criminal prosecution is just so unbelievably typical.

beefnugs 1y ago

Still time to pay the dump tax, then open a real factory in the USA where you can cheat other countries' rules

blippage 1y ago

Brit here. IANAL, but there is a legal principle of "vicarious liability". So if an employee does something bad, it's the employer that foots the bill. This is vicarious liability. It is actually a "good" thing as a legal principle because it's the the employer who has all the dough and is most able to compensate for a wrong. The downside to all this is that the bad actors get away with it. They have less skin in the game. My view is that more people need to go to jail. Corporations would behave less like sociopathic institutions if this were done.

dragonwriter 1y ago
> Brit here. IANAL, but there is a legal principle of "vicarious liability". So if an employee does something bad, it's the employer that foots the bill. This is vicarious liability. More specifically (vicarious liability is correct, but less specific) it is respondear superior, the liability of the principal for harmful actions of the agent within the scope of the principal-agent relationship.
milesrout 1y ago
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sensanaty 1y ago

Wow only took them a decade, and not even all the execs involved have been punished. Plus the terms are pitiful, 4.5 years max in cozy German jails. This should've happened a long time ago, and we should've made an example out of every single one of these scam artists. If it were up to me all these scumbags would be made destitute and barred from ever being anywhere near managing anything bigger than a mop.

hoseja 1y ago

They did nothing wrong.

aaron695 1y ago

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animitronix 1y ago

Well that only took a decade

andrewkyren066 1y ago

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