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Military grade sonic weapon is used against protesters in Serbia
- hilux 2y ago[flagged]
- EatFlamingDeath 2y agoCan you guys shut up about Trump just for a second? This is not about the United States.
- briandear 2y ago[flagged]
- rickydroll 2y ago[flagged]
- chinathrow 2y agoThese LRADs have always been planned to be used against mass protests, from day one.
- RickS 2y agoPlanned? Perhaps. Destined? Certainly. The imperial boomerang: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Imperial_boomerang https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Imperial_boomerang
- anthk 2y agoThe Basque Country has been a huge sandbox against the later leftist groups in the rest of Spain.
- hayst4ck 2y agoThis strikes at the core of the idea of solidarity. If you see injustice but do nothing, you invite the same injustice on yourself. Injustice at it's core is an arbitrary execution of power, so suffering injustice anywhere is to let power stay unchecked which communicates that there are no consequences for abuses of power, which only invites more abuses of power. If there aren't consequences for power being used against others, there won't be consequences for power being used against you.
- cantrecallmypwd 2y agoWeapons of war used by colonizers to oppress others inevitably turn these to crush dissent at home. And also journalism about atrocities such as what happened to Julian Assange or objection to military adventurism as the NYT turned on Chris Hedges.
- crooked-v 2y agoI've seen some theories that it was actually an ADS (basically a low-power microwave beam, immensely painful but tuned to be just under the threshold to actually cause visible burns), since there haven't been any reported cases of permanent deafness yet. The student organizers in the crowd did an incredible job clearing people out of there before the police could escalate further and cause more mob-crowding panic deaths.
- deleted 2y ago[deleted]
- boppo1 2y ago>cases of permanent deafness Ah so these sonic weapons are indeed seriously harmful. I was wondering if hearing loss was a result.
- aaron695 2y ago[dead]
- ThePowerOfFuet 2y agohttps://xcancel.com/nexta_tv/status/1901244199220982213 https://xcancel.com/nexta_tv/status/1901244199220982213
- aquir 2y agoThe protesters described the noise it was like something huge was flying past over them, looking at the reaction it must’ve been terrifying
- hettygreen 2y agoIs there any counter measure for this? Hardcore hearing protection? Noise cancelling headphones? Handheld sound insulation "shield"?
- rasz 2y agoFPV drone blowing up the LRAD. Total cost below $1000.
- pclmulqdq 2y agoAt that point, you should realize that a round of 7.62 is under $1 and equally effective.
- rtkwe 2y agoAn LRAD is a big speaker array so you'd need a lot of shots to take out enough of the array or a lucky shot and angle to hit some control box.
- red-iron-pine 2y agoif you're bringing FPV drones you're well past the point of protesting
- zoklet-enjoyer 2y agohttps://youtu.be/CXKTBQBugIA https://youtu.be/CXKTBQBugIA
- amatecha 2y agoProbably also worth watching a related video from the same channel: "Defeating Microwave Weapons! - Part 1" https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lg_aUOSLuRo https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lg_aUOSLuRo
- malfist 2y agoThe report I read said it relied on bone conduction, so hearing protection wouldn't do a whole lot. Only things that can attenuate low frequency sounds before it gets to the ear. So muff style headphones might work, or mass
- ChrisArchitect 2y agoEarlier: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=43377133 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=43377133
- mdhb 2y agoI don’t think governments should have access to the “make the protestors immediately go away” button that they can just hit whenever they want.
- CaffeineLD50 2y ago[flagged]
- mdhb 2y agoWhat on earth is wrong with you?
- CaffeineLD50 2y agoI would prefer protesters not be killed by oppressive governments. I guess you prefer tanks and guns. Feel free to make an argument.
- perching_aix 2y agoAn argument with which they could win a scenario conveniently tailored by you, that you have arbitrary control over, and can twist until their argument is rendered senseless again? > I would prefer protesters not be killed by oppressive governments. I guess you prefer tanks and guns. On a tangential note, may I ask your stance on the Russian invasion of Ukraine? I'd guess you're also a great proponent of the "peace" the Trump administration is drafting?
- CaffeineLD50 2y agoWhoa, great tangent. I'm saying I'd rather see people robbed of their human rights by non lethal force over lethal force. There's * dozens* of mass killings that prove its not uncommon. You have some wingnut tangent about Ukraine and assumptions that since I don't ride your high horse I'm a bad guy of fantastical proportions. Its weak minded thinkers like you that prop up the evil cabals of this world. Feel free to contemplate the cancerous nature of your intellectual defects.
- neilv 2y agoI wonder how the engineers and scientists who contributed to that less-lethal weapon feel about it.
- aaomidi 2y ago[flagged]
- neilv 2y agoThere are "dual-use" systems, and there are systems that are only weapons. There's also technologies and basic research, but those are different matters. I'm first interested in the more straightforward situation of the people who worked on a less-lethal weapon system, which they might've anticipated would be used in exactly this way. What do they think about that?
- tonyhart7 2y agotheir first thought was maybe that used again riot or violence in the first place not necessarily to attack people I mean its just moral Highground at this point, same can be said for Oppenheimer if he didn't do it maybe war that more costly would occur
- __MatrixMan__ 2y agoCan you have the moral high ground if you're using violence against your people?
- tonyhart7 2y agowell if they turn out out to be violence and can be destructive (they called riot), yes they can
- __MatrixMan__ 2y agoI don't think so. If the authorities are willing to point something that permanently damages hearing at thousands of people in the name of "crowd control" or "protecting property" then they don't deserve to be the authorities anymore. In the grand scheme of things, property just isn't that important. Also, did you watch the video? They were just standing there.
- tptacek 2y agoLRADs have been used against protesters in Australia, New Zealand, the United States, France, and Germany.
- sega_sai 2y agoI don't necessarily dispute that claim, but do you have evidence to support it ?
- rtkwe 2y agoIt's extensively covered on the wikipedia page alone. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Long-range_acoustic_device#United_States https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Long-range_acoustic_device#Uni... Also if you just google "LRAD use in [country]" there are source for any country you're actually wondering about...
- CAP_NET_ADMIN 2y agoIf you actually read the page that you've linked, you'll see that many European countries were just using it to deliver COVID notifications
- rtkwe 2y agoAlong with offensive uses in Greece, Japan, the US, and New Zealand along with some uses on sea going vessels against pirates. It's not just notification uses and even just as a notification messages there are reports of hearing damage when turned too high.
- Abimelex 2y agothat's not necessarely the weapon LRAD, Long Range Acoustic Devices may also be used for communication. I would be really alerted if this kind of weapon would be used in Germany. > In the first half of 2020, Bad Homburg's fire brigade and city police used an LRAD 100X system more than 60 times to deliver COVID-19 information. LRAD 100X: https://danimex.com/products?ProductID=PROD1666 https://danimex.com/products?ProductID=PROD1666
- casenmgreen 2y agoSerbia is one of the Russian-controlled Governments, along with Hungary and Georgia; these are the countries where we expect to see such attacks made to suppress protest. (USA is not controlled, any more than say China is controlled, but is an authoritarian regime (so no real elections), so there's a shared world view, and here also I would expect to see much the same.)
- alephnerd 2y ago> Serbia is one of the Russian-controlled Governments Serbia is a major weapons supplier for Ukraine [0][1][2] and has backed Ukraine's stance on Crimea as it has implications for Serbia's stance on Kosovo. Vucic only cares about Vucic, and will work with any country (Germany [3], Russia, China [4], America [5], Turkiye [6], UAE [7], etc) to continue to hold power and balance alternatives. By becoming close with every major player in the region, it makes it easier for Vucic to continue to crackdown on opposition without dealing with condemnations (eg. Germany will remain silent because of the billions in FDI). Orban did the same thing, but after grinding the EP to a halt, patients for Orban grew thin. By remaining outside the EU, Vucic can continue to hold power while not burning that many bridges with European leadership. > USA is not controlled, any more than say China is controlled, but is an authoritarian regime (so no real elections) Huh? Serbia is a night and day difference to the US. The best comparison to the US is probably Israel. [0] - https://www.reuters.com/world/leaked-us-intel-document-claims-serbia-agreed-arm-ukraine-2023-04-12/ https://www.reuters.com/world/leaked-us-intel-document-claim... [1] - https://www.economist.com/europe/2024/09/19/ukraine-is-a-booming-market-for-balkan-arms-makers https://www.economist.com/europe/2024/09/19/ukraine-is-a-boo... [2] - https://www.ft.com/content/136ed721-fd50-4815-8314-d9df8dc67fd6 https://www.ft.com/content/136ed721-fd50-4815-8314-d9df8dc67... [3] - https://www.politico.eu/article/serbian-president-aleksandar-vucic-german-chancellor-olaf-scholz-meeting-lithium-deal-electric-vehicles/ https://www.politico.eu/article/serbian-president-aleksandar... [4] - https://apnews.com/article/serbia-china-xi-jinping-visit-nato-e37b7ad0e89ac73b83e754142ce8e399 https://apnews.com/article/serbia-china-xi-jinping-visit-nat... [5] - https://amp.dw.com/en/serbia-and-us-the-next-great-trans-atlantic-friendship/a-71268835 https://amp.dw.com/en/serbia-and-us-the-next-great-trans-atl... [6] - https://www.dailysabah.com/politics/diplomacy/defense-at-forefront-as-erdogan-vucic-tout-long-term-co-op/amp https://www.dailysabah.com/politics/diplomacy/defense-at-for... [7] - https://www.mei.edu/publications/serbias-best-friend-arab-world-uae https://www.mei.edu/publications/serbias-best-friend-arab-wo...
- elaus 2y agoEven without knowing the background of those protests: It is heartbreaking to see a crowd of peaceful people (seemingly during a moment of silence) being attacked by their own country and fleeing in panic and pain.
- martin_a 2y agoHere's some background: https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/cx2g8v32q30o https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/cx2g8v32q30o
- stefantalpalaru 2y ago[dead]
- anticensor 2y agoDupe: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=43377133 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=43377133
- rtkwe 2y agoThis one kind of wins just by getting more votes and comments.
- observationist 2y agoSerbia had the LRAD systems on hand, after buying them in 2022, most likely from Genasys, but possibly from HyperSpike. https://genasys.com/lrad-products/ https://genasys.com/lrad-products/ It's a legal gray area in Serbia where the use against civilians isn't explicitly forbidden, so they're playing fast and loose and moving fast to crush opposition. It's better than troops just gunning people down, but for a modern, supposedly civilized country it's horrible to see. The people in power are the type of people that use their power in these ways. The US shouldn't be supplying them. We're not the world police, we don't need to enforce global norms, and we shouldn't be selling hyperoffensive mass crowd control technology. They should be limited to Temu LRAD, or their LRAD at home; we shouldn't be providing them S-Tier dystopian authoritarian kits for DIY oppression. The people that profited off of this are a special kind of evil. We shouldn't be outfitting dictators, gangsters, or warlords. But, greed is good. The dollar is king. This is what happens when incentives and principles don't align.
- tonyhart7 2y agothe only acceptable condition to use it maybe if there are riot or violence breakout in that area not for peaceful protest
- timewizard 2y agoIt's a weapon meant to deny the use of an area by threatening non-selective permanent physical damage. There are very few legitimate civil use cases for something like that.
- Aeolun 2y agoSomething like protecting the capitol from being stormed by a mob?
- __MatrixMan__ 2y agoOnly if you want to justify the mob's presence there.
- impossiblefork 2y agoIt really isn't smart to do this kind of thing. Once an organization actually attacks you, it's very easy to decide that any legitimacy they view themselves as having is irrelevant and to come back next Monday with mortars and machine guns.
- captainkrtek 2y agoReminds me of the escalation seen in the Ukrainian Maidan, went from some heavy handed policing to non-lethal rounds (eg: teargas / beanbags) to BBs to snipers and live firing on crowds.
- impossiblefork 2y agoYes, although that was exceptionally irrational, to the point where I don't really feel I understand the events.
- tpm 2y agoIt would be rational if you would think killing a few (or a lot of) protesters will intimidate the rest of the country into submission. It didn't, but it could have.
- impossiblefork 2y agoBut nobody thinks that way. If they can kill your friends, they can round you up afterwards and kill you. Once it gets to that point, there's no reason not to immediately organize a military response.
- giraffe_lady 2y agoHold on to that thought we're going to need it this summer.
- impossiblefork 2y ago
- dist-epoch 2y agoThat's some impressive range, 200 meters. And it seems as effective in the back as in the front. I bet this video will 10x the orders for these devices.
- suddenclarity 2y agoAre there any reputable sources confirming this? So far I've only seen random accounts on social media making the claim. The police, defence ministry and emergency hospital all deny the claim. Jeez. Getting your comment flagged for asking for a source. I'm out.
- perching_aix 2y agoThe hospitals too? Got any sources yourself for those? The government agencies denying it I don't find particularly damning, because it makes sense to me that they would deny it, even if they did use them.
- suddenclarity 2y agoAssociated Press wrote this: > Belgrade’s emergency hospital has denied reports that many people sought help after the incident and urged legal action against those who “spread untrue information”.
- perching_aix 2y agoGonna be honest with you, "urged legal action against those who “spread untrue information”" sounds blatantly like propaganda to me. Can you imagine any decent healthcare worker responding like this to a situation like this, even if they disagree that such a weapon has been used? But let's ignore that bit, not even important. If I read it right, the hospital "has denied reports that many people sought help". So they did not deny that those who did showed symptoms consistent of an LRAD or ASD deployment? Kind of a nothingburger I'd say.
- Oarch 2y agoI've seen a video on Reddit which would be very difficult to explain otherwise.
- blogabegonija 2y ago[dead]
- grujicd 2y agoClose friend who was on the spot described it as car or plane running towards you, you don't only hear it, you also feel vibrations in the body creating panic and fear. All demonstrations of LRAD I heard on youtube were with high pitched sound, not a "whoosh" as witnesses experienced last night in Belgrade. Can these devices play any kind of sound? What is described by victims, and what can be heard on some recordings from last nights, sounds more like Vortex Cannon: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GJpChS-_RJg https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GJpChS-_RJg
- user_7832 2y agoI’m moderately suspicious of the details some people/articles say. Long story short, there’s 1-4khz audio weapons (LRAD), and microwave/heat based ADS. It appears that both of these were used, a Reddit army vet commented about how that’s apparently the “protocol” as the ADS is strong enough to pick off the last stragglers. I’m ever so slightly suspicious of the “low frequency sound weapon” aspect because that typically takes a lot of energy (I’m speaking from an audio background). However the reports of feeling uneasy do match that of infrasound… yet typically (based on what I’ve read) infrasound doesn’t have an instant reaction but takes some time for people to feel it. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Directed-energy_weapon https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Directed-energy_weapon has a lot more info if anyone is interested.
- grujicd 2y agoEarshot NGO analyzed recorded sounds and found 4 of these videos "consistent with Vortex Ring Gun or Vortex Cannon": https://x.com/earshot_ngo/status/1901661518153781534 https://x.com/earshot_ngo/status/1901661518153781534 Note that many videos didn't record the sound if the phone was further away from that center line. This is the recording which perhaps captured sound the best: https://x.com/stonexman/status/1901034916961309148 https://x.com/stonexman/status/1901034916961309148
- user_7832 2y agoThank you. Before I saw your reply, I saw this discussion and links on r/acoustics which in retrospect seems to be the best likely answer. It being a cannon (and not a speaker based device) would mean it’s closer to a controlled explosion than a speaker playing (really loud) music. There’s still the questions of “how is it so small” (apparently) but at least some aspects are answered now.
- nntwozz 2y agoWhat happened to just shouting at each other? That would have been more civilized.
- hello_computer 2y ago[flagged]
- yimby2001 2y ago[flagged]
- aznumeric 2y agoAnother video, from a different angle: https://www.reddit.com/r/serbia/comments/1jchks6/novi_snimci_panike_gra%C4%91ana_sa_15minutne_ti%C5%A1ine/ https://www.reddit.com/r/serbia/comments/1jchks6/novi_snimci... Please take into account that this occurred during the fifteen-minute silence observed by the protesters in memory of the fifteen victims of the accident, which the protesters blame on the government corruption and which was the very reason for the start of the protests.
- pessimizer 2y ago[flagged]
- zozbot234 2y agoA mass protest against government incompetence and corruption is hardly a "coup".
- perching_aix 2y agoHave you considered running for office? You managed to lie or mislead in every single sentence you uttered, you'd definitely qualify. > This is not real news. You're not the sole arbiter of what's real and not real news. Misleading on the account of asserting so. > I've heard of a military-grade capacitor, I've never heard of a "military-grade weapon." Thanks for the fun fact? Why would it ever matter what you heard of or didn't hear of? Oh, 'cause it's supposed to be misleading! In that what you heard of exists, and what you didn't hear of doesn't exist. In the same fashion the news isn't real, now the (supposed) taxonomic rank of the weapon isn't real either. Got it. But then, you're not the sole arbiter of this either. Misleading on the account of asserting so, once more. > Sounds like random words Not to me. Wow, now we're tied. Misleading on the account of treating this opinion as fact later on (see below). > to make less-lethal crowd control equipment sound like a massacre Because if you think it now sounds like massacre, then it does, right? Misleading on the account of asserting an opinion as fact. Also speculation, and at that, speculation of (malicious) intent. > Kudos in getting the coup of the week on the front page of HN, though. And it was not even a coup. This makes a lie, with a sprinkle of cynicism masquerading as intellectualism. Why are people like this?
- nullorempty 2y agoBetter that than Maidan.
- chillingeffect 2y agoFrom what im reading elsehwhere, it was ADS. Active Denial System. Microwaving people from a distance. Source: Serbian protestors on youtube.
- echoangle 2y agoFrom the videos and the description, it looks like it basically makes you think there’s a vehicle approaching and everyone runs away to not get run over. But would this actually work repeatedly or could you actively override the panic effect if you become aware that it’s just an illusion?
- Havoc 2y agoIt’s not just loud and scary. Has physical effects on humans
- codedokode 2y agoAs I understand, you can override the panic, but lose your hearing.
- echoangle 2y agoAt least in the videos I saw, it didn’t look that loud. People were more confused and looking for the source of the sound while trying to move away, not holding their ears like they were literally hurt by the noise.
- red-iron-pine 2y agoit's loud enough to be carried though your bones; covering your ears doesn't help. it's also very disorienting
- deleted 2y ago[deleted]
- hayst4ck 2y agoIt's the most important time in human history to protest/fight unchecked power because it's likely the last era of humanity that we are going to be able to. We are getting to the point where the technology that fuels oppression, including extremely pervasive surveillance, privatized intelligence services with no oversight, scalable AI agents that do as they are told, and crowd "maiming" or other forceful dispersal techniques are growing past the ability to resist them. Wars historically happened under conditions where people died but the planet was largely left in tact, but we now have 3 countries with the ability to erase entire cities or make the world functionally uninhabitable by humans, which absolutely changes the calculus of war. If you do not have nukes your sovereignty is questionable. Likewise if the tools to put down crowds, find saboteurs, and weed out dissent is perfected, meaningful dissent can only be expressed through withdrawal and there is no final check on abuses of power where any, instead of some, of the "checkers" of power are left in tact. Anti-dissent technology has the potential for a nuclear moment that fundamentally changes the calculus of protest and I think AI is very much potentially that.
- cmrdporcupine 2y agoWas expressing this fear to my wife and kids the other day. Ubiquitous cameras everywhere (like in the UK for many years) and other surveillance technology has always been a concern but had scaling limits -- but when you combine it now with the cheap ease of machine learning technologies we have a serious problem. And then consider drones, mobile devices. And then mass disinformation and/or disruption via LLMs. As a long time advocate of old school mass action, and a believe in active protest movements as part of a healthy democracy, I have a strong feeling of unease. I've had it since about 9/11, but it's now really bad. e.g. if you know, with certainty, that heading out to a protest could lead to your instant termination from your job because a drone passed over and took a photo and identified all 100,000 people in the crowd instantly.. would you still go? Or if having been identified, some malevolent actor could just turn around and mass produce fake content from you and others in the crowd, to discredit you? Shivers.
- archagon 2y agoAI also has the potential to detect your every unique tic in a way that humans would be incapable of doing. You could be masked but your gait and other body movements will give you away, or at least place you in a statistically likely pool of suspects. "Walk without rhythm and it won't attract the worm."
- markoa 2y agoin case anyone’s curious about the context of the protest, I wrote a brief summary for an outside perspective about a month ago https://markoanastasov.com/signals/serbia-student-revolution/ https://markoanastasov.com/signals/serbia-student-revolution...
- pomian 2y agoExcellent write up. Thank-you. Not anything in the available press, or media, has explained it so well.
- LennyHenrysNuts 2y agoWe had them used on lockdown protesters in Australia in 2022. Welcome to the Totalitarian State Club, Serbia.
- iamthemonster 2y agoIn Australia they were used for broadcasting audible messages and did not cause harm: https://www.abc.net.au/news/2022-02-18/coronacheck-sonic-weapons-lrad-police-canberra-protests/100839612 https://www.abc.net.au/news/2022-02-18/coronacheck-sonic-wea... We're not living in some oppressed totalitarian state here in Australia. It's a bit of a nanny state, and the media's pretty Murdoch-dominated, but it's about the same as any other Western democracy.
- LennyHenrysNuts 2y agoWait, we're not totalitarian because we're about the same as the other scumbags?!
- wuschel 2y agoIs anyone knowledgeable what would be the best way to block the sound waves? a) Earplugs? b) destructive interference?
- gloosx 2y agoEveryone here got so political and it's a shame nobody is discussing counter-measures available. Sound is one of the easiest forms of energy to manipulate, it is easily absorbed, reflected and reverberated. Because these systems exploit resonance in the skull and inner ear, in theory a thick motorcycle helmet should do the heavy work already for blocking some of these from reaching your skull, as well as blocking any random projectiles flying around. Additionally wool blankets or other thick, soft materials can be wrapped around the neck+head part to further reduce waves from entering your skull and resonating there. Also if you can identify the dominant frequencies used by the device, you could design surfaces with materials that reflect or diffuse those waves effectively. Something like an array of concave acoustic reflectors or even a shield coated with a material tuned to reflect those frequencies might work. Redirecting the sound back at riot police would be ironic — wonder if they’d be as comfortable with it as they are deploying it against crowds. :D
- nikolay 2y agoOne can easily protect themselves [0]! [0]: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CXKTBQBugIA https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CXKTBQBugIA
- bobek 2y agoI would never expect Tech Ingredients' video "DEFEATING LRAD" to become relevant on European soil. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CXKTBQBugIA https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CXKTBQBugIA
- red-iron-pine 2y agoi have a feeling it will be relevant on all continents before 2100 the world we're moving to is not one that is friendly to personal liberties