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A Letter to the American People
- cluckindan 2y agoDear America, you are under attack from your own government.
- iyn 2y ago"I will support and defend the Constitution and laws of the United States of America against all enemies, foreign and domestic" [0] [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oath_of_Allegiance_%28United_States%29 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oath_of_Allegiance_%28United_S...
- jfengel 2y agoYes, we know. Even worse: it is doing so to the resounding cheers of a large fraction of our fellow citizens.
- sega_sai 2y agoTo be honest I am not sure I am seeing any reaction from the other fraction either. Yes I do read articles in NYT, and page linked above, but is there any opposition? protests about what is going on, about putting puppets on top of agencies, siding with Russia, dismantling the government? It seems to me the strategy for the other fraction is to maybe hope for the best and maybe wait for the next election.
- sitkack 2y agoThis needs to be stopped now, no one is waiting.
- account42 2y agoWhy? This is what the American people voted for. And it's not any more radical than what the otherside has been doing the past four years.
- Tadpole9181 2y agoEDIT: Going to remove these comments and step away, this week really has me heated and it's not fair to my conversational partners here.
- mxfh 2y agoInform the opinions of the constituencies of member of congress to show them where there local support is. Try to force special elections. Flipping the house seems doable. The momentum seems there.
- deleted 2y ago[deleted]
- aeth0s 2y agoYes, there are protests all over the US! Check out https://www.fiftyfifty.one/ https://www.fiftyfifty.one/ I'm deeply impressed by the turnout in every state. It seems media coverage has been lagging in major outlets. There's also a subreddit https://www.reddit.com/r/50501/ https://www.reddit.com/r/50501/ and Discord. Thanks for helping. (:
- brink 2y agoWorry about your own country, this is our republic. Most of us voted for exactly this, not the hyper-intellectual multi-national HN crowd. Yes it's ugly, but we knew it would be going in. There is no pretty way to go about the reform we're after. We'll decide for ourselves whether we're under attack or not. I voted for this admin, and while not perfect, I think it's much better than what we had.
- wat10000 2y agoThe people were split almost evenly. That should not translate into the side that squeaked out a win being able to take a wrecking ball to everything.
- sitkack 2y agoWe collectively are under attack, whether you voted for this administration doesn't make you the decider of that. We have an unconstitutional tyrant and petulant billionaire side kick running around like bulls in a china shop destroying our collective value. This isn't a Democrat or Republican issue, this is a constitutional issue.
- goatlover 2y agoTrump admin is acting as an illegitimate government by ignoring the Constitution and siding with Putin of all people. The results of the election are being rendered irrelevant.
- NotMichaelBay 2y ago
- goatlover 2y agoIs anyone filing a lawsuit on your behalf?
- aerokr 2y agoHard to see where all this will end.
- pjc50 2y agoThe budget is the crunch point. They'll pass huge cuts, the impact on the economy starts to become real, and people who only pay attention to gas prices their 401k will start noticing. Liz Truss effect.
- _heimdall 2y agoI've yet to be convinced they really are after cutting the deficit or paying off debt. Republicans in congress, many of whom lined up behind Trump, are pushing a budget increase.
- hammock 2y ago[flagged]
- cmorgan31 2y agoIs there much value in being clearer? The republicans vote in lockstep with limited exceptions for vanity votes. They haven’t deviated from that under the existing administration. There’s not much value in pretending fiscal policy is at the root of their plan. It’s fairly transparent in its efforts to privatize government to enrich those in positions to capitalize on it.
- hammock 2y agoYes, in my mind there is. The congress and the executive branch are not in exact lockstep, just as they were not in Trumps first administration either. There are plenty of influential Republicans who push back on one thing or another, and prevent or obstruct administration agenda. I already gave an example. For those who hate Trump there is value in understanding this, as it can be worked with
- fishnchips 2y agoHow long until this is removed from the front page?
- debacle 2y ago[flagged]
- fishnchips 2y agoAt which point you're no longer able to bury your head in the sand?
- debacle 2y ago[flagged]
- jf 2y agoThen why are you complaining in the comments?
- wavefunction 2y agovacuous platitudes from the stagnance of swamps
- cmorgan31 2y agoYou have a stance that would be unfair to ask you to explain via HN. Instead I’ll just ask, what’s a good starting point for understanding why you think the government needs to be unraveled? Libertarianism or something akin to anarcho-capitalism?
- debacle 2y agoI would say with regards to bureaucracy, no one has put it more succinctly than Trotsky, though complaints about the bureaucracy harken back to the Ancient Greeks. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Revolution_Betrayed https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Revolution_Betrayed I have met many, many politicians in my day. 95% of them are feckless, spineless, covetous cretins. But the bureaucrats are worse.
- rogerrogerr 2y agoA nearby state should take the opportunity to pick these people up. They appear to do good work and this is a rare opportunity to get a good prebuilt IT team that is willing to work at government rates.
- fishnchips 2y agoI'm sure there are states - perhaps not nearby - that will offer exciting opportunities to former civil servants.
- hammock 2y agoJust about all of the blue states could benefit from a good team of engineers imo
- dekhn 2y agoWould be cool if California hired them all and made a nice but inexpensive office building somewhere near housing and public transportation and had them help clean up all the inefficiency in our state's tech systems.
- hammock 2y agoWould love that. Does California have housing and public transportation though? (Joking)
- aqueueaqueue 2y agoIran, NK, China would love em!
- fishnchips 2y agoMy point exactly.
- 2y ago
- dj_gitmo 2y agoThis is just vandalism. They don’t want the government to function at all.
- Apreche 2y agoFinally. Someone else who gets it. They want to hurt people on purpose.
- teaearlgraycold 2y agoIt’s been clear since last year that this administration is a government specifically designed to hurt people.
- dagelf 2y ago[flagged]
- jaybrendansmith 2y agoHow long will we tap on our keyboards before we take action? Yes, we are comfortable, but for how long??
- Apreche 2y agoSit down and ask yourself this question. At what point will I stop going to your job, if you have one, and take to the streets instead? What has to happen for you to do that? Come up with a serious answer. Write down the answer. Put it on an index card or other prominent place so you will be constantly reminded of it. Now read the news every day. If the thing on your index card happens, take to the streets. Even if you are the only one, do it anyway.
- jaybrendansmith 2y agoAny suggestions? Seems that some of my triggers may be happening already. Perhaps we can go with: 1. Global economic collapse 2. WW III 3. Major Pandemic 4. Martial Law declared (might be too late) 5. Elections cancelled 6. All of the above.
- Waterluvian 2y agoAm I being too cynical if I read from this that they were fine with it until they got fired? Honest question. I’m really not sure if I’m just becoming too cynical.
- 2big2fail_47 2y agoI also got that from the subtext
- dullcrisp 2y agoYeah, I don’t see that implied anywhere.
- wolfd 2y agoI think the goal is to not antagonize the administration but convince them that they're making a mistake and to reverse it.
- e_y_ 2y agoYes. These people are the rank-and-file, doing good engineering work until the USDS got hijacked by Elon's crew. It's also harder to speak out when you're a US government employee, but now that they've been fired ...
- GeneralMayhem 2y agoYes, you are being too cynical. There is no way that anyone who chose to work at 18F - a place that exists to make government actually more efficient, that has a reputation for quality and execution, and that doesn't pay nearly as well as the private sector - is at all okay with Musk's slash-and-burn version of "efficiency". This kind of message exists to point out the difference: if you actually care about efficiency and good governance, you wouldn't possibly dream of firing these people. Hanlon's razor can't even explain it; even if you're an absolute moron you wouldn't do it. The only possible explanation is actual malice.
- AnimalMuppet 2y agoNo, you can explain it without actual malice. All it takes is Musk having no clue who these people actually are, and not taking the time to find out, because he's got a whole government to go through, so he can't take the time to actually look at any department. But it isn't easy to tell the difference between that kind of no-time-to-check recklessness and actual malice, at least in any one instance. (You might be able to tell statistically, at the level of the whole government. Not with any one department, though.) But it's just as destructive as actual malice, so maybe it doesn't matter whether it's malice or not.
- markus_zhang 2y agoI don't know. I guess it really depends on whether people agree that there is a bloat in civil servants.
- ronbenton 2y agoThis org cost $0. They operated with full cost recovery from their consulting work with other agencies
- rsoto2 2y agoThe executive branch is not supposed to choose what to fund, and these irresponsible cuts show that there is no real plan to maintain a stable government.
- Spooky23 2y agoIt’s really about whether people buy into the inane take that the other guy is lazy. Civil servants are easy targets, unless you wear a uniform, except if you’re a woman.
- aqueueaqueue 2y agoThere "is bloat in civil servants" "America has gotten fat" etc. sounds like an imprecise, weasly and inflammatory remark. It is a handy soundbite that saves people thinking through a complex situation and to keep voting against their own interests.
- fishcrackers 2y ago[dead]
- AnimalMuppet 2y agoLet's just assume that there is bloat in the federal government. Assume that, OK? I think I do, actually. But have you ever seen a new manager come in with a mandate to cut costs - a new manager who doesn't bother to listen, but who just starts cutting without knowing, learning, or listening? Have you ever seen that kind of a disaster? He (it's almost always a he) cuts the most expensive people, who turn out to be the most talented and the most knowledgeable, and you're left with the less talented and less experienced. He cuts the departments that have the most people, and those turn out to be critically related to revenue. And so on. The issue isn't whether there need to be cuts. The issue is that Musk doesn't know enough to make the right cuts, and he isn't even trying to learn. Even in weight loss surgery, I want an experienced surgeon, not the guy from The Texas Chainsaw Massacre.
- ronbenton 2y agoThe admins will likely down rank this due to “ongoing news” but boy this is really important stuff.
- sneak 2y agoIf everything is urgent, nothing is. Almost none of the handwringing since the inauguration has been important.
- chasd00 2y agoI wish you weren’t being downvoted. On our phones and looking at ads is the most important thing period. Google news, X, and whatever else will ensure its the only priority. If peace and harmony made us look at ads then current events would be viewed as a new renaissance.
- bigyabai 2y agoThank you for bravely speaking out. I would also like to add that many Americans underestimate the value surveillance provides to our government and (certain) allies. It's so important for America to continue innovating in these unprecedented fields to defend the control it wields over savage and undomesticated tech markets seen abroad. Too much stock is being put into the value of the global opinion. Not enough people are appreciating the return to the golden age of smartphone tariffs and regressive income tax.
- NotMichaelBay 2y agoI'm not really sure what you're trying to say. There have been a lot of events since the inauguration that are unprecedented, and that is indeed important.
- hypothesis 2y agoYup, it happened right when “ongoing” top comment showed up.
- kuduebrahim 2y agoRenewed my passport, and it was seamless using their portal. I was amazed. Are they now going to privatize everything?
- davemp 2y ago“You will own nothing and be happy.” includes public ownership through your government I guess.
- adsteel_ 2y agoPrivatizing is a key step on the path to full oligarchy. So I would guess that yes.
- danny_codes 2y agoThere is no plan to privatize. The architect of Project 2025 (which is the source of the current movements in the executive branch) was written by a Christian Nationalist. He sees the current federal government as being secular/not conforming to Christian values. Thus he wants to dismantle the federal government by traumatizing the workforce. This, he believes, will allow for Christian nationalists to replace existing federal workers and bring about a supposed revival of Christian ideals in government. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russell_Vought?wprov=sfti1# https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russell_Vought?wprov=sfti1# Vought is the architect. Trump is the useful moron and Ilan is having one of his ketamine-induced autistic moments..
- blitzar 2y ago> supporting free tax filing with the IRS This was their mistake.
- SlightlyLeftPad 2y agoFollow the money.
- skissane 2y agoThey had a rather progressive-coded internal culture, [0] which I think made them very likely to have been attacked by a Republican administration, even if they'd never worked on direct filing at all. Contrary to the media narrative which focuses on direct filing, I think the primary reason why Musk turned against them is not direct filing, it is because he views them as "deeply infected with the woke mind virus". [1] If 18F had been doing the same technical work but with a staff dominated by conservative Republicans, they quite possibly would have survived. [0] https://x.com/lukerosiak/status/1885530802898747888 https://x.com/lukerosiak/status/1885530802898747888 [1] he said that of Google but I'm sure he'd say the same thing of 18F: https://x.com/elonmusk/status/1770802773547770345 https://x.com/elonmusk/status/1770802773547770345
- carlgreene 2y agoIt is really really concerning to me how seemingly thoughtless these cuts are to the actual stated goals. As stated below, this org ran at a $0 cost from full cost recovery through consulting services to other orgs. Sure you could argue that's not truly $0, it's not. But it is not a bloated cost-center that needs to be cut. Just today on the All In podcast I heard Jason Calcanis suggest that the USPS go down to one delivery day per week because no one uses it? The unbelievable part is he was genuine and thought it was an intelligent thing to say. For reference the USPS delivers over 100B, yes billion, parcels per year. The disconnect between the people who are running the show, and those who are in the ear's of those running the show is scary.
- blitzar 2y agoIf you have only just noticed that the stars of the "All In Podcast" are intellectually deficient then you haven't been paying attention.
- imadierich 2y ago[dead]
- gigatexal 2y agoYup. They’re as out of touch as any other willfully arrogant rich guy. It’s pretty depressing because tech billions seem to be the king makers now so we gotta listen to what they have to say. SMH.
- deleted 2y ago[deleted]
- naijaboiler 2y agoOnly people who have never read history sign up to be kingmakers. Just about every single time in history, the made king when he has consolidated enough power will turn against the “kingmakers”. It is inevitable
- ncallaway 2y ago
- derektank 2y agoAs someone that's very invested in seeing the federal government adopt and integrate information technology to make the government more transparent, effective, and, yes, efficient, this is nothing short of an incredible bummer. It feels like we're setting the clock back a decade at a time when trust in institutions is already at a nadir and we're facing global threats that only the federal government has the capacity to tackle. I can only hope civil society is able to pick up the slack in the short term and future administrations are able to execute better.
- sho_hn 2y agoHonestly, for me it's a huge silver lining that this generation's descent into facism is as bumbling, incompetent and ineffectual as it is proving so far. We might learn the lesson this time before we actually do tip into world wars and genocide, purely by the price tag of the metaphorical egg.
- fishnchips 2y agoBoth Mussolini and Hitler were seen as bumbling fools by most of their contemporaries. Before they seized power, that is.
- sho_hn 2y agoYou are correct, and this is indeed a valuable lesson: https://archive.is/xh2Ci https://archive.is/xh2Ci I'm still sticking to the comment, even in awareness of history and having entertained the comparison. Let's hope I'm not proven wrong.
- danny_codes 2y agoThey weren’t wrong. Both led their countries through a series of terrible decisions that cost millions of lives and destroyed their own societies. Bumbling fool seems apt to me.
- johnnyanmac 2y agoyou're right, but Hitler could live in the metaphorical shadows for years on end. The information era works for and against us here in showing the truth but also efficiently spreading misinfroamtion. But moments of seeing them objectively on camera will eventually shine the truth.
- samwillis 2y agoI'm not American, but I'm very aware of the impact 18f has had from seeing the many posts on here of their work over the years: https://hn.algolia.com/?q=18f https://hn.algolia.com/?q=18f I'm also aware of at least a handful of hacker new members, and people I've followed, who took time out of their carriers to do a "tour of duty" at 18f. I feel for all today, you were doing good work!
- deleted 2y ago[deleted]
- dekhn 2y agoIt's pretty clear that everything Elon claimed about his improvements was a complete and total lie, and that his real goal was the seize the technological workings of the government, which simplifies implementing their agenda. We will be lucky if we, as a nation, survive the Trump administration without turning into a fascist, authoritarian state, with little to no scientific credibility, and a pariah state like North Korea. I have noticed that a number of conservative organizations are starting to be affected by this and speaking up, although Congress and the Judiciary are clearly either afraid, or supportive of these actions. From what I can tell, the only remaining response is truly large scale, well-organized peaceful protest, which is risky because a small number of bad actors could mess up a peaceful protest and give Trump all the excuses he wants to bring out the US military for a violent response to innocent protestors.
- jcgrillo 2y agoMaybe it's time for the left to embrace the full text of the 2nd Amendment ;)
- TacticalCoder 2y ago[dead]
- ikjasdlk2234 2y agoIronically, I don't think Musk or Trump grasp how much of the military logistics and fundamental readiness rely on DoD civilians. The same ones they want to reduce by 8% over the next few months.
- aeth0s 2y agoThere are protests all over the US! Check out https://www.fiftyfifty.one/ https://www.fiftyfifty.one/ I'm deeply impressed by the turnout in every state. Next day of action is March 4th.
- kklisura 2y ago> The billionaire [Elon Musk] wrote on his social media platform X that 18F and TTS had been “deleted” weeks ago, re-posting another account that called the 18F a “far left government computer office” and pointed to its work on the IRS’ free tax filing system, Direct File. [1] [1] https://www.nextgov.com/people/2025/03/gsa-eliminates-18f/403400/ https://www.nextgov.com/people/2025/03/gsa-eliminates-18f/40...
- goatlover 2y agoFree tax filing is far leftist? My god these people are beyond the pale.
- skissane 2y agoRead it in context: Musk's tweet saying 18F "has been deleted": https://x.com/elonmusk/status/1886498750052327520 https://x.com/elonmusk/status/1886498750052327520 Was replying to ALX's tweet calling 18F "far left": https://x.com/alx/status/1886415751528972515 https://x.com/alx/status/1886415751528972515 Which was in turn quoting Rosiak's tweet calling 18F "far left": https://x.com/lukerosiak/status/1885523747425399247 https://x.com/lukerosiak/status/1885523747425399247 Rosiak's tweet wasn't talking about direct filing at all, it was talking about how 18F wrote a Slack bot to correct people for using non-inclusive language. That's what Rosiak was calling "far left" So, reading ALX's tweet in context – it is pretty clear he was labelling 18F as "far left" because of stuff like their Slack bot, not solely because of direct filing. Many will argue it is an abuse of terminology to call stuff like that "far left", but it is a common colloquial pejorative among right-leaning individuals such as Musk and ALX and Rosiak Now, maybe they'd call direct filing "far left" too, I don't know. But it is misrepresenting the thread if one presents the "far left" label as solely being due to 18F's work on direct filing EDIT: I previously said "GitHub bot" above, on further investigation I realise now it was a Slack bot not a GitHub bot
- lm28469 2y agoFree things are communists obviously, and communism is bad, hence free things are bad. Or something like that
- lxe 2y agoThey open sourced quite a few guides, resources and standards over the years. I think they did a lot of design and i18n work like the US web design guidelines. Also... don't they own login.gov? https://github.com/orgs/18F/repositories https://github.com/orgs/18F/repositories
- sneak 2y ago[flagged]
- lillecarl 2y agoIsn't that just an optimization?
- sarchertech 2y agoThe federal government had enough employees for federated SSO within 20 years of the country’s founding.
- sneak 2y agologin.gov is fedgov SSO for citizens, not employees.
- sarchertech 2y agoSo let’s say we go back to the original departments of war, treasury, and state. And the offices of the attorney general and the postmaster general. That’s 5 logins right there. Then we have the first patent board established in 1790. Then all of the federal courts could use the SSO if they wanted. What about when you want to login to request a tour of the capitol, access the library of congress, or book an appointment with your representative. We have over 300 million people so there will probably be separate offices within some of the departments to handle some of the more common requests. There’s probably going to be a passport office and separate office to handle immigration and visas. Treasury will probably have separate offices to handle accounts payable and tax collection. Add in miscellaneous things like logins to handle freedom of information requests. Logins to register homestead claims and mining claims in US territories. My point is that even in the most minimal government only possible in a libertarian’s wet dream, there’s gonna be enough delegate logins that SSO is a good idea.
- ISL 2y ago"But we came to the government to fix things. And we’re not done with this work yet." Thank you, 18F.
- curiousDog 2y agoAll of this seems like deliberate destruction of America from the inside out by an ayn-rand worshipping, billionaire afrikaaner cabal (David Sacks, Elon Musk, roelof botha etc). Thoughtless and mindless cuts
- danny_codes 2y agohttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russell_Vought?wprov=sfti1# https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russell_Vought?wprov=sfti1# It’s all intentional. Trump is just a useful moron for Vought. Remember Trump is very easy to manipulate. The right wing Christian nationalists played him like a fiddle and are getting what they wanted out of it. Kind of wild that one guy has so much influence, especially since he’s completely out of the limelight. Reminds me of Robert Moses and the destruction of Urban America in the 1950s.
- hamandcheese 2y ago> Just yesterday we were working on important projects, including improving access to weather data with NOAA, making it easier and faster to get a passport with the Department of State, supporting free tax filing with the IRS I think this answers the question of "why".
- chasd00 2y agoI use words like those when justifying a timeline extension and CR (change request) to clients. I’m not saying it isn’t true but give me something more specific because I know this game.
- iyn 2y agoWhat's happening is a destruction of institutions, under the guise of efficiency. If your goal was to establish authoritarian system and/or oligarchy in the US within a year and without firing any bullets, what would you do differently to what's happening now? Honest question I've been thinking about lately. My current answer is that the diff is not that big. Yes, there's much to be done about efficiency/productivity on the government part, but this is not what's being done. I am not sure if Elon is deliberate (similar to how "X is about free speech", DOGE is about "government efficiency" i.e. fake ideology to push some agenda) or an useful idiot (believes that all he's doing is improving efficiency, without realizing the consequences of destroying the institutions), but that's not the main point. The point is that fundamental institutions are being destroyed very, very quickly, without real oversight. This has important and negative consequences to democracy.
- jcgrillo 2y agoBlow something up or get in a big war. Something to rally the nation around the flag and get them to pledge fealty.
- wavefunction 2y agoelon needs a new government teat
- soared 2y agoA group of very smart people who are highly knowledgeable about some governments systems were fired overnight. I wonder if any one of them will be disgruntled and take some sort of action.
- TacticalCoder 2y ago[dead]
- invig 2y agoPeople who take disgruntled actions are definitely the kind of people you want working for you.
- sirolimus 2y agoThe US is a disgrace. Democrats, please save the country
- coldpie 2y ago2016-2020 was the wakeup call. We got Biden instead. Dems won't be fixing this problem.
- sirolimus 2y agoWho else then? Republicans?
- coldpie 2y agoNope. There is no opposition. The US is a single party state now, like Russia and China.
- dekhn 2y agoIt won't happen but I think a centrist party which took the best from Republican and Democrat platforms and completely avoided histrionics, focusing entirely on rational solutions to our ongoing problems, could be very attractive to a wide range of voters in the US.
- krainboltgreene 2y agoYes what we need is a new party formed from the diet versions of the people in the other parties. Of course this means they’ll be capitalists with imperialist goals so they’re not going to win on any topic that matters currently. Wait that’s just the democrats.
- latentcall 2y agoHopefully the American working class.
- ajross 2y agoAnd this is why we "got Trump again". The inability on the left to reason with clear allies in it's own coalition was a big part of the voter turnout problem. Yes, there are jews, even zionist ones, in power within the democratic aparatus. There are capitalist democrats. Even billionaires. And every one of them wanted to work with you to prevent this from happening, but you took your toys and went home instead reasoning that it was more important to punish your allies than keep your actual enemies out of power. Because at the end of the day this is what you wanted. The ability to say "Dems won't be fixing this problem" is more important to you than fixing the problem.
- Group_B 2y agopain…
- deleted 2y ago[deleted]
- matt-p 2y agoWhat a circus.
- brapfarm 2y ago[flagged]
- deleted 2y ago[deleted]
- reaperducer 2y agoFinally, a GoFundMe to which I would contribute. If anyone hears of one, please post here.
- gorbachev 2y agoI think we're headed towards a state where GoArmMe would be a better alternative.
- Moto7451 2y agoI’m expecting this to not last the weekend so here’s an archive link. https://archive.is/xrGV2 https://archive.is/xrGV2
- ww520 2y agoIt's painful to see people doing real work get canned. It sounds like the unsustainable national debt has forced a cut across the board. Each department will find some organization to cut. The least politically connected groups will be cut. The cuts are painful, but we simply don't have the money. In fact we are way deep in the hole.
- fzeroracer 2y agoWeird that we have the money to supply deep tax cuts for rich assholes, but not enough money to supply agencies doing things like making passport renewal easy or making tax filing free. Almost makes you wonder if there's an agenda here. Good thing I don't think too hard about these things.
- ww520 2y agoThen they need to gain enough political capital to stay on. In most re-org, downsizing, or budget cut, it's all a political game. If you don't want rich assholes to get the tax cut, get involved politically.
- gorbachev 2y agoNotice that they are not cutting any of the services that cost the most. That should tell you something.
- ww520 2y agoLike I said elsewhere, in most re-org downsizing, it's all a political game. All the departments are fighting to get the least cut. Engineers still think like engineers. Time to get political.
- nodesocket 2y agoIt’s seems that DOGE and 18f had an overlap. While 18f’s mission was not explicit reduction of waste, fraud, and government abuse; technology is the primary means of efficiency. Seems a better solution would have been; absorb a portion of 18f (who wanted to and were qualified) into DOGE.
- dtquad 2y agoAs a Scandinavian I would suspect that most government waste and corruption in a high trust developed country would be at the state and city level and not at the national level. Unless they look into why Pentagon weapons programs are so suspiciously expensive they might actually be destroying an otherwise well working US Federal system.
- invig 2y agoWell working? Estimated FY 2025 deficit is $1.9 trillion. If they had stopped ALL defense spending they would still lose over $1 trillion dollars in FY25.
- francasso 2y agoI'm starting to think that the US is done for, short of a civil war to stop it they'll never get out of the damage done by four years of this.
- palata 2y ago> short of a civil war to stop it Remember that the Trump administration still has large support from the people! If you want a civil war, you need people inside the country who disagree. For some reason they don't (yet), and at the time they do who knows how much damage will have been done.
- krapp 2y agoPlease stop spreading propaganda. Most Americans don't support Trump. At best, a third of Americans voted for him in 2024, which means two-thirds didn't. And he's rapidly losing support within his own base, from people who didn't expect him to go as far as he has, or didn't expect the ramifications to apply to them.
- A4ET8a8uTh0_v2 2y ago[flagged]
- krapp 2y agoFriend, I didn't post propaganda or rhetoric, I posted math. Feel free to post sources to the contrary, or explain what you consider misleading. Simply claiming that everything is propaganda is neither constructive nor interesting conversation.
- A4ET8a8uTh0_v2 2y agoAre you familiar with relatively common phrase that originated from "Lies, damned lies, and statistics"[1]? I am curious. Not whether you do, but how you will respond. [1]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lies%2C_damned_lies%2C_and_statistics https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lies%2C_damned_lies%2C_and_sta...
- breadwinner 2y agoThis makes my blood boil. As another commenter said, this is pure vandalism. Musk's reasoning is that we have to cut the deficit. Our deficit is around $2 Trillion. Assuming an average salary of $70,000 for the approximately 3 million federal employees (excluding military and postal workers), the annual payroll would be roughly $210 billion. Even if you lay off 25% of federal workers, the deficit will only be cut by 2.5%. The right way to cut deficit is by raising taxes on Elon Musk and his fellow billionaires.
- BLKNSLVR 2y agoI think this was the motivation for this oligarchal take-over of the US Government. They were either going to win this election and do whatever they can to avoid the 'tax the rich' outcome, or have to move away for the USA to get "their important work" (of avoiding taxes) done.
- deleted 2y ago[deleted]
- hayst4ck 2y agoEveryone should watch the Office of Budget and Management, Russell Vought, speak on government workers: We want the bureaucrats to be traumatically affected. When they wake up in the morning, we want them to not want to go to work because they are increasingly viewed as the villains. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oBH9TmeJN_M https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oBH9TmeJN_M 18F are the bureaucrats they want to traumatize.
- boroboro4 2y agoThis is so terrifying to watch. And it’s even more terrifying to see those people to succeed and probably never pay for their actions.
- SlightlyLeftPad 2y agoThis is just the beginning unfortunately.
- AzzyHN 2y agoI gotta say, "we want our government workers to hate going to work" is NOT a good way to run a country...
- deleted 2y ago[deleted]
- jarsin 2y agoThis is just the standard executive double speak we all deal with in the private sector. How many times has a new executive been brought in, tells your team how important and great you all are, and then the entire team is fired a couple weeks later?
- ClownsAbound 2y ago[dead]
- interlocutor 2y agoThere is a method to this madness. Elon Musk's strategy is to control the government operations through controlling its IT department. The smart people of 18f stands in the way. By removing it and hiring his loyalists to run the government IT he gets to control the government's operations.
- zombiwoof 2y agoIt’s time for a revolution
- zombiwoof 2y agoTesla is not the gold standard of anything
- easton 2y agoNo, but theoretically it was someone Elon would listen to, which was their point.
- motohagiography 2y agoi admired 18F's work and their model, and have also seen similar digital service groups get marginalized and coopted by the bureaucracy. something like it has to exist and it will likely reform as something else post-doge. what i think people need to appreciate is how pernicious bureaucracy is, and that doge is going to get one opportunity to reform it before it develops a new immune response. 18F showed themselves to be some of the most capable and resourceful people in public service doing some of the heaviest lifts, and they will all find private work faster than others. many will likely immediately respawn as consultants. it sounds like a hard change but as it comes to light how bad things were, i can see how 18F could be coopted into an opposition. that they were taken out first should be a point of honor.
- breadwinner 2y agoElon Musk is removing the tech people... in order to replace them with his loyalists. His strategy is documented here: https://www.nytimes.com/2025/02/28/us/politics/musk-federal-bureaucracy-takeover.html https://www.nytimes.com/2025/02/28/us/politics/musk-federal-... <quote> Mr. Musk made clear that he saw the gutting of that bureaucracy as primarily a technology challenge. He told the party of around 20 that when he overhauled Twitter, the social media company that he bought in 2022 and later renamed X, the key was gaining access to the company’s servers. </quote> By replacing all tech workers with his loyalists, Musk will have full control of the servers and its operations.
- keepamovin 2y agoLet’s just say it’s a middle way - where it’s not exactly what they say it’s for (economic boom), but its also not what you fear it’s for (orangegarchy) What could it be? Possibilities: - reorganization of labor in anticipation of the need to soon fight a coming, century-deciding war - preparing for massive hire-back into some new agency with fresh national purpose - making the country a less attractive invasion target by making it ungovernable by colonists, and creating a mass pool of expert free agents to staff the resistance Sounds unlikely. Possible sure, but how probable? What if it really is just aggressive restructuring to make the government a viable going concern? Presumably Elon will add back some of the “muscle” cut away with 18F unless there are unseen factors that make them an issue. My historical curiosity question is: where are the labor unions in all this? A few counter judges will not stop the tide with their brooms. But maybe the most important question to ask yourself is: why the urgency? Why the rush to get it done by mid next year?? Why is that date important? What is anticipated??? After all this I’m inclined to think it is just about the cutting-out-the-rot corporate restructuring. As Elon has said many times: they are going to cut more than they need, to find the limits, and put back what’s necessary.
- Haugsevje 2y agoHmm, let me see...who else have had this playbook? Create confusion and fear. Laying the ground for an almighty to seize power. There are a few names that comes to mind.
- pseudocomposer 2y agoSo there were a lot projects listed here, but the one word used to describe the actual work being done by folks at 18F was “technologist” (in the sole bolded phrase of the article). I know what devs do, QA folks do, product owners, scrum masters, UX specialists, etc. But what were these folks doing as “technologists?” I have my own understandings of the term that are, well… not biased in the direction of “valuable work.” I’m all about calling out DOGE firings as problematic. But this particular post read as a lot of emotional language, but very specifically sparse specific details about what work they were doing and what they were being paid for it. And that’s, well… how you would actually demonstrate that it was problematic. I get a vibe here of “politicians’ friends and family paid a lot to write how they think tech should work and wave their dicks around a bit,” to be honest, but really want to be wrong. Are there any substantive PRs to major GPL/MIT repos from 18F folks? Or more tactile explanations of their work? And some accounting of what they were paid for it?
- hn_throwaway_99 2y agoWell, would have been nice to simply look at all the stuff on the 18f.gsa.gov site to look for the evidence you are requesting, but the entire site has been memory-holed.
- pavlov 2y agoYou could just read the other comments in this HN thread to find out what 18F’s work was and why it was well-regarded. Instead you decided to write a long comment about vibes you got from the post.
- pseudocomposer 2y agoI wrote the comment so long mostly to appease people like you. But please, post unuseful responses and I’ll just assume this was the DOGE actually doing something efficient
- nullstyle 2y ago> I know what devs do, QA folks do, product owners, scrum masters, UX specialists, etc. But what were these folks doing as “technologists?” A technologist is proficient in more than one of those individual disciplines and is willing to make themselves skilled enough to cross across those disciplines in the name of better technology.
- casenmgreen 2y ago"There's a good reason, and there's the real reason." So it is with these cuts.
- user9999999999 2y agowhen can i expect the upside to this? Will it come in dollars? Will I save $10 a year now at the expense of a gov capable of building scalable web apps? Pooling money and resources will always be greater in quality efficiency and quantity than individual or privatized effort. Think about how inefficient decentralized blockchain computations are. gutting gov services for measly tax cuts is atrocious and an attack on American people.
- coding123 2y ago[dead]
- romaaeterna 2y agoThe same 18F as these people? https://x.com/lukerosiak/status/1885523747425399247 https://x.com/lukerosiak/status/1885523747425399247
- jwoglom 2y agoThis is an incredibly inflammatory and culture war-charged take. Even if you think the people working at this government agency were politically driven, there is public evidence to support that they did good work and were helping modernize government IT in a very cost-effective manner.
- romaaeterna 2y agoI don't know either way. If they were politically driven (some of the screenshots seem to indicate that), then I hope that they can be replaced by a more neutral body. I am also interested in the accusation of "viciously subverted Trump during his first term" and what that might be about. The fact that the Trump people went after them does lead some credence to it. Maybe it was some sort of big mistake though? If it was not a mistake, and even if they were doing good work somehow, Federal employment is just not a place for political activism. That leads to a vicious money -> politics feedback system that destroys actual democracy.
- mychael 2y ago[flagged]
- danny_codes 2y agoYou forgot the /s Some people won’t realize you’re trolling
- ahstilde 2y agoYou claim 18F was a failure. What evidence do you have for this claim? I am familiar with their direct file work (https://directfile.irs.gov/ https://directfile.irs.gov/), which saves tax filers hundreds of dollars, keeps money out of massive rentseekers like TurboTax, and enables the IRS to function more effectively. How is this a failure?
- LPisGood 2y ago> DOGE) that is supported by AI and the amazing team that Elon has put together This is a joke, right? The team is far from amazing and had very quickly done a slew of irresponsible, illegal, and harmful actions.
- thfuran 2y agoOh, it's amazing. And appalling.
- angusturner 2y agoI have no idea what you are basing this claim on, although it seems in stark contrast to the evidence provided by other commenters in this thread. AI is not a replacement for engineering expertise and deep understanding of the actual user problems that you are trying to solve. Any 19yo at DOGE can have Cursor pump out shitty web portals without regard for the problem context or actual end user. But that’s not what engineering is about and it’s depressing to see people celebrate and advocate for that kind of mediocrity.
- kurikuri 2y agoAbsolutely not. It wasn’t a failure, it’s job was entirely to assist other agencies modernize their tooling. As an auxiliary program, it helped others to without taking the credit. Let me ask: are IT departments losses to you? The gov is _always_ inefficient if you consider profit to be the only indicator of success. The government isn’t here to make a buck, it is here to help its populace. The free tax filing helped its populace, modernizing the passport application process helped the populace, and doing these things (and many more) in a way that is stable without interrupting the system is extremely impressive. DOGE will not do anything useful, they aren’t adding, only removing. Elon hired children he could easily convince to do the dirty work, he will proceed to take credit for what they do (if it is good) and blame them for any bad outcomes. He knows nothing about AI other than what he’s read in pop-sci books, headlines, or sci-fi novels, so he won’t be iterating on 18f (or anything) with AI. If anything good happens, it will be in spite of this terrible person. How he has managed to maintain his smart facade to you is beyond me. The tipping point for me was when he said ‘he knew more about manufacturing than anyone alive.’ Imagine, buying a car company, hiring smart people to run it, and then believing that their collective knowledge is somehow yours. He is an insecure person who wants to look impressive and has never managed to find anything he is actually good at. He even cheats on his video games, refusing to be not at the top.
- robwwilliams 2y agoIs it time to cash out of the stock market? Would this accomplish two goals?: 1. Send an indirect political message 2. Save my current funds from madness.
- drawkward 2y agoWas just discussing this with my wife
- Etheryte 2y agoAs the saying goes, people sell for a variety of reasons, so in the immeasurably large sea of the modern financial world, I would say it's a complete waste to put any thought to 1. Focus on whatever you believe will be the best way to brace yourself and your loved ones for the long term ride we're on.
- mxfh 2y agoOr just short stuff, this seems to be the most predictable market in a while[1]. But would diversify a bit an not just sit on USD cash. Trumps next genius deal idea could as well be to cancel out the US federal debt by some rampant inflation, when he suddenly wants to make everyone a millionaire. Seriously waiting for the Fort Knox stunt. [1] no financial advice, just some gut feeling.
- cbradford 2y agoIsn't this the group that had the not that monitored chats and would warn on any use of language that was insufficiently adherent to the woke paradigm?
- drawkward 2y agoPerhaps you should use the internet and find out before asking questions that are stupendously biased.
- tac19 2y ago[flagged]
- wesselbindt 2y ago> Why are so many people, who believe these things, crying about America being delegitimized? Well for me personally it's because of empathy. The United States, as you rightly point out, was founded on slavery and genocide. I agree with you, and I would also add that the US is responsible for the deaths of millions globally in the past century (let's take Iraq and Vietnam, and I think you're already over a million). Generally a force for evil. But a nation's citizens are not responsible for the actions of its government. They do not deserve to lose their homes in forest fires, have their children attend school hungry, go bankrupt on account of having cancer, be steeped in lifelong debt just to afford an education, lose their child in a school shooting, et cetera. What Elon Musk is doing will make those things much worse. That's why people are upset.
- tac19 2y agoThere is a certain subset of people, who think no punishment is too great for the sins of the USA, and that all its civilians are enjoying unearned privilege -- and deserve to be humbled for their willingness to profit from such an evil system. These are the same sort of people who fly planes into the twin towers in New York to kill civilians, (i'm not making any claim about this being restricted to any ethnicity or religion, just showing that such people do exist)
- wesselbindt 2y agoYour point being? You asked why people are upset about the gutting of public services. I gave you a reason why. This thing about 9/11 is a bit of a non sequitur.
- tac19 2y agoMy point is that your wonderful level of compassion and empathy wasn't heard by the people who voted for Trump. They only heard the first part of the message, of their complicity in evil, and culpability in profiting from the suffering inflicted by evil. What i'm trying to argue for, is a softening of future messaging, that includes your warmth.
- dang 2y agoRelated ongoing threads: GSA Eliminates 18F - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=43221549 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=43221549 18F GitHub Repositories - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=43222842 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=43222842
- voganmother42 2y agoGlad private industry can charge people to file their taxes because of how efficient everything is now, truly an inspiration. The brilliant use of AI to ignore all the conflicts of interest is very innovative too! Truly the ability to so efficiently not provide any services is impressive, I think they were heavily inspired by https://github.com/kelseyhightower/nocode https://github.com/kelseyhightower/nocode
- mxfh 2y agoWho flags this down? 1 hour old at 700 points, but at the bottom of the front page? Yes it's political, but what isn't.
- bgun 2y agoTrying to streamline the government of a massive nation the same way you would treat efficiency projects at a large corporation represents a miscalculation so inestimably ignorant that it has to be malicious. If the United States had lost a world war with Russia & China coalition, this is exactly what the victorious powers would do to concentrate power into the hands of a few figureheads and oligarchs. This administration has saved them the trouble. This is what losing an economic & cultural conflict in the modern era looks like.
- deleted 2y ago[deleted]
- arionhardison 2y agoI would love to work with these guys, I have been working on a small side project related to Gov. Tech: - https://rnc.dev https://rnc.dev - https://dnc.dev https://dnc.dev Nothing on the scale of the amazing work they did but would love to link up if possible.
- jer0me 2y agoWhat are these? It just seems like you've registered a ton of government domains on .dev and filled them with junk data.
- arionhardison 2y agoIts a list of service I have been working on, example: https://us.medicare.dev https://us.medicare.dev
- arionhardison 2y agoIt's a workflow automation solution for Gov. processes at the core, here you can see an example: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eIaJZ13A0UQ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eIaJZ13A0UQ
- tomrod 2y agoWhat a shame. 18F/TTS were some of what was best about the recent decades in government, and doing what DOGE claims to do within the confines of the law. Thank you to both 18F and USDS for your service. I'm cloning USDS and 18F repos as we speak. It may be wise for several people to do so. I am not sure anything in git lfs was captured, but I hope it was. USDS, 4.2GB, 54 repos: gh repo list usds --limit 9999 --json sshUrl | jq -r '.[].sshUrl' | xargs -n1 git clone 18F, 37GB, 1,213 repos: gh repo list 18F --limit 9999 --json sshUrl | jq -r '.[].sshUrl' | xargs -n1 git clone The most recent commit to usds/website was on 2/14/2025. Top committers across all USDS repos: 4175 73812536+upptime-bot@users.noreply.github.com 2131 gertjan@west.nl 1084 mara@west.nl 955 vassil.iordanov@gmail.com 814 hunter@dds.mil 789 nick@dds.mil 770 vassil.iordanov@ncia.nato.int 718 91492387+amwhitty@users.noreply.github.com 692 cf-buildpacks-eng@pivotal.io 563 wslack@users.noreply.github.com The most recent commit to 18f/web-design-standards-ux was on 6/22/2024. Top committers across all 18f repos: 13266 bruce@momjian.us 12157 tgl@sss.pgh.pa.us 6395 william.hamilton@gsa.gov 5413 shawn.allen@gsa.gov 4711 robin.ward@gmail.com 4590 41898282+github-actions[bot]@users.noreply.github.com 4546 sam.saffron@gmail.com 4010 aidan.feldman@gsa.gov 3953 laura.gerhardt@gsa.gov 3802 lindsayn.young@gsa.gov
- timsuchanek 2y agoWhy is this not on the front page anymore?
- jordanpg 2y agoAll of this lament is great, but if you don’t like this, please pick up the phone and call your reps. Every day.
- ghthor 2y agoThis could be good, last time I remember, Amazon was abusing the USPS, so maybe bringing it down to once a week would force Amazon to do something different for delivery.
- neycoda 2y agoElon got rid of it because he couldn't control. He'll put his own version in. Prepare for King Musk in 2028 or sooner (if Trump dies) unless people fight it overwhelmingly.
- mgav 2y agoDOGE is a group of thoughtless, self-serving goons whose only tool is blunt force. Fck each and every person who put vengeful, childlike, draft-dodging, felonious Trmp in office.
- adamski007 2y agoIt is just a shame how now this government can work ! In a few month, the government will be working the same way as other government to try to combat against, meaning Totalitarianism ! Because they just do think they are smarter than others...
- timtas 2y ago“18F was doing exactly the type of work that DOGE claims to want – yet we were eliminated.” Witness how “this type of work” is actually done. You’ve been claiming to “do this type of work,” yet even in this most earnest appeal “to the American people” you don’t bother to cite one single accomplishment that might make we the people sympathetic. Thumb twiddling whiners. Good riddance.
- not_your_mentat 2y agoI keep wondering how this kind of scenario would have played out had Johnson had been elected. The libertarian party always felt like a few good arguments run by a pack of nut jobs. I'd love to see the movie of that timeline though. Just to compare.