24 ms·

Nvidia's RTX 5090 power connectors are melting

416 points by ambigious7777 2y ago

gnabgib 2y ago
Discussion (22 points, 1 day ago, 10 comments) https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=42996057 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=42996057
colechristensen 2y ago
If we’re going to keep up these kilowatt scale cards, we’re just going to need higher voltage rails on PSUs. I had a bunch of similar dumb power connector problems when my 4090 was new.
- zamadatix 2y ago
  Or 2 cables.
- Dylan16807 2y ago
  Is it effective to step down from 24/48 volts to the 1-2 range? Or would cards need two stages of voltage conversion?
  - mastax 2y ago
    It is tricky but possible. It is being done in the data center for certain hyperscalers. I wonder if Oxide Computer is doing it also, they mentioned a high voltage DC bus I think. https://epc-co.com/epc/about-epc/gan-talk-blog/post/14229/48v-to-1v-conversion-the-rebirth-of-direct-to-chip-power https://epc-co.com/epc/about-epc/gan-talk-blog/post/14229/48... 19V is pretty standard in notebooks so 19-24V could probably be done with fairly little trouble. 48V would entail developing a whole new line of capacitors, inductors, power stages (transistors), and controllers.^1 ^1: yes, of course, 48V compatible components exist for all of those. But the PC industry typically gets components developed for its specific requirements because it has the volume.
    - aaronmdjones 2y ago
      The computer industry already has these. 48-54V PoE (power over ethernet) that ends up being used to power equipment designed to operate at ranges of 1.8-3.3V is extremely common.
  - progbits 2y ago
    TL;DR: Yes there is a small difference in efficiency, but it's still plenty efficient. You need a switching regulator for the current 12V anyway (as opposed to linear regulator which are much simpler but basically just burn power to reduce voltage) so the question is if increasing the voltage 2-4x while keeping same power requirements makes a difference. - You need higher voltage rated components (mainly relevant for capacitors), potentially bit more expensive but negligible for GPU costs. The loss due to inductor will be higher too (same DC resistance but higher voltage => higher current, more power), but this is negligible. - On the other hand you need less thick traces/copper, and have more flexibility in the design. For some concrete numbers, here is a random TI regulator datasheet [1], check out figure 45. At 5V 3A output, the difference in efficiency between 12V, 24V and 42V inputs is maybe 5%. I think the main problem is the industry needs to move together. Nvidia can't require 24/48V input before there is standard for it and enough PSUs on the market offer it. This seemingly chicken-and-egg situation has happened in the past a bunch of times, so it's not a big problem, but will take a while. [1] https://www.ti.com/lit/ds/symlink/tps54340.pdf https://www.ti.com/lit/ds/symlink/tps54340.pdf
  - anticensor 2y ago
    What if we added one more stage, making it into 230V→24V→5V→1.2V?
- lazide 2y ago
  Or just give up and provide a wall power cord.
  - knowitnone 2y ago
    actually, not a bad idea.
  - anticensor 2y ago
    You mean ATX230VO.
wruza 2y ago
Why can’t they just use a cable+socket similar to PSU - wall socket? It’s not even multiple-kilowatts range.
- vvv5 2y ago
  That connector (C13) is rated for 15 amps. That's 180W at 12V.
  - wruza 2y ago
    So heat depends on current, not on power. My research: https://www.reddit.com/r/ElectricalEngineering/comments/15xfet7/soo_what_actually_generates_heat/ https://www.reddit.com/r/ElectricalEngineering/comments/15xf...
    - cwillu 2y ago
      And the card requires up to 600 watts, which is 50 amps if the supply is 12 volts.
    - hgomersall 2y ago
      No it depends on power, but the power dissipated by the cable, not the power through the cable. The power dissipated is i^2 * r, where r is the resistance of the cable and i, crucially, is the current through the cable which depends on the power it's supplying (which with a resistive load, in this case, is i * 12v).
      - gorjusborg 2y ago
        Yes, but it seems the connectors, not the entire cable are too high resistance. Using a larger diameter wire would drop resistance in the cable, but if it has to go through the same connector, it will likely still get hot. Also, NVDA might be telling the truth about poorly seated connectors, that could raise resistance and heat significantly. That could also be handwaving away a business decision to move forward with a design with too little margin.
  - 2y ago
lyu07282 2y ago
It's strange how Nvidia just doubled down on a flawed design for no apparent reason. It doesn't even do anything, the adapter is so short you still have the same mess of cables in the front of the case as before.
- onli 2y ago
  I was under the impression it saves them money. Is that correct? It is also a powerplay. By potentially introducing a PSU connector AMD and Intel do not use they abuse their market power to limit interoperability. Plus probably some internal arrogance about not admitting failures.
  - rcarmo 2y ago
    It saves them money on a four-digit MSRP. I think they could afford to be less thrifty.
  - bayindirh 2y ago
    > Plus probably some internal arrogance about not admitting failures. Arrogance is good. Accelerates the "forced correction" (aka cluebat) process. NVIDIA needs that badly.
  - formerly_proven 2y ago
    I doubt engineering a new connector (I think it's new? Unlike the Mini-Fit Jr which has been around for like 40-50 years) and standing up a supply chain for it could offset the potentially slightly lower BOM cost of using one specialty connector instead of three MiniFit Jr 8-pins. However, three of those would not have been enough for the 4090, nevermind the 5090.
    - lyu07282 2y ago
      > three of those would not have been enough for the 4090, nevermind the 5090. Oh you are right these PCIe power connectors can only draw 150W, so you would need 4 of those for 4090/5090. I guess that makes sense then to create a new standard for it actually, hopefully they can make a newer revision of that connector that makes it safer. In theory with the new standard you can have a single cable from the PSU to the GPU instead of 4, which would be a huge improvement. Except if you use those and then your PC catches fire, you will be blamed by the community for it. People on the reddit thread [1] were arguing that it was his own fault for using a "third party" connector. [1] https://www.reddit.com/r/nvidia/comments/1ilhfk0/rtx_5090fe_molten_12vhpwr/ https://www.reddit.com/r/nvidia/comments/1ilhfk0/rtx_5090fe_...
BigJono 2y ago
This shit is so fucking dumb. Sorry for the unhinged rant, but it's ridiculous how bad every single connector involved with building a PC is in 2025. I'm just a software guy, so maybe some hardware engineer can chime in (and I'd love to find out exactly what I'm missing and why it might be harder than it seems), but why on earth can everything not just be easily accessible and click nicely into place? I'm paying multiple hundred dollars for most of these parts, and multiple thousands for some now that GPUs just get more and more expensive by the year, and the connector quality just gets worse and worse. How much more per unit can proper connectors possibly cost? I still have to sit there stressing out because I have no idea if the PSU<->Mobo power connector is seated properly, I have no idea if the GPU 12VHPWR cable is seated properly, I'm tearing skin off my fingers trying to get the PSU side of the power cables in because they're all seated so closely together, have a microscopic amount of plastic to grip onto making it impossible to get any leverage, and need so much force to seat properly, again with no fucking click. I have no idea if any of the front panel pins are seated properly, I can't even reach half of them even in a full ATX case, fuck me if I want anything smaller, and no matter what order you assemble everything in, something is going to block off access to something else. I'm sure if you work in a PC shop and deal with this 15 times a day you'll have strategies for dealing with it all, but most of us build a PC once every 3 years if that. It feels like as an average user you have zero chance to build any intuition about how any of it works, and it's infuriating that the hardware engineers seem to put in fuck all effort to help their customers assemble their expensive parts without breaking them, or in this case, having them catch fire because something is off by a millimetre. This space feels ripe for a radical re-design.
- delichon 2y ago
  There exists a perfectly balanced point between usability and affordability that, if it can be achieved, makes exactly nobody happy.
  - account42 2y ago
    GP's point is that "affordability" here is penny pinching considering the cost of the components those cables connect (and are usually included with).
emsixteen 2y ago
This same thing happening on the 40 series cards was good enough vindication for me not 'upgrading' to that at the time. I'd rather not burn my house down with my beloved inside. Can't believe the same is happening again.
- the__alchemist 2y ago
  I can relate to this perspective! It's important to step out of the system and recognize priorities like this; balancing risk and reward. I think, in this particular case, perhaps the risk is not as high as you state? You could imagine a scenario where these connectors could lead to a fire, but I think this is probably a low risk compared to operation of other high-power household appliances. Bad connector design that's easy to over-current? Yes. Notable house-fire risk? Probably not.
whywhywhywhy 2y ago
People are letting their hatred of Nvidia blind them to what happened here, a customer upgraded from a 4090FE to 5090FE, they were using a 3rd party ASUS 12VHPWR cable and didn't realize the 5090FE actually uses 12V-2x6 not 12VHPWR, while the port is the same the pins are different lengths. End of the day PC power cabling is such a shambles with things that look standard but are not so you should only ever really use the cables that came with the product if you don't want to risk issues, especially with this specific ports poor history with 3rd party cables.
- 0x073 2y ago
  "didn't realize the 5090FE actually uses 12V-2x6 not 12VHPWR, while the port is the same the pins are different lengths" Broken by design. I use always the cables that are shipped with the psu and noth the cables from gpu.
- jiwidi 2y ago
  NVIDIA made the 12V-2x6 port retro compatible with the previous 4000 series 12VHPWR. If you make your port compatible with past gen and it breaks with it its a design flaw, dont make it retro compatible. This is not a user error, this is NVIDIA design error.
- account42 2y ago
  Wait so Nvdia made a connector that is physically but not electrically compatible with their previous generation and you think that's an argument for not blaming them?
- Deathmax 2y ago
  The cables between 12V-2x6 and 12VHPWR are identical, it's the port that has different pin lengths (shorter sensing pin, longer conductor pins) to allow for better detection of poorly seated cables and better conductivity while loose.
  - whywhywhywhy 2y ago
    Pedantry between "cable" and "connectors" and claiming one if the same doesn't help people understand the situation.
ribcage 2y ago
[dead]
ulfbert_inc 2y ago
Derbauer and Buildzoid on YouTube made nice informative videos on subject, and no it is not "simply a user error". So glad I went with 7900 XTX - should be all set for a couple of years.
- CarVac 2y ago
  Derbauer: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ndmoi1s0ZaY https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ndmoi1s0ZaY Buildzoid: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kb5YzMoVQyw https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kb5YzMoVQyw I went 7900 GRE, not even considering Nvidia, because I simply do not trust that connector.
- whalesalad 2y ago
  Enjoying my 7900XTX as well. I really don't understand why nvidia had to pivot to this obscure power connector. It's not like this is a mobile device where that interface is very important - you plug the card in once and forget about it.
  - lmm 2y ago
    The new cards need unprecedented amounts of power, the old connectors can't deliver enough.
- enragedcacti 2y ago
  Summary of the Buildzoid video courtesy of redditors in r/hardware: > TL;DW: The 3090 had 3 shunt resistors set up in a way which distributed the power load evenly among the 6 power-bearing conductors. That's why there were no reports of melted 3090s. The 4090/5090 modified the engineering for whatever reason, perhaps to save on manufacturing costs, and the shunt resistors no longer distribute the power load. Therefore, it's possible for 1 conductor to bear way more power than the rest, and that's how it melts. > The only reason why the problem was considered "fixed" (not really, it wasn't) on the 4090 is that apparently in order to skew the load so much to generate enough heat to melt the connector you'd need for the plug to not be properly seated. However with 600W, as seen on der8auer video, all it takes is one single cable or two making a bit better contact than the rest to take up all the load and, as measured by him, reach 23A. https://old.reddit.com/r/hardware/comments/1imyzgq/how_nvidia_made_the_12vhpwr_connector_even_worse/mc6vh0x/ https://old.reddit.com/r/hardware/comments/1imyzgq/how_nvidi...
misantroop 2y ago
You only paid $2000 for it, what did you expect.
- revnode 2y ago
  Ha! Find me where I can buy it for $2000.
  - tcdent 2y ago
    Yeah, how do people have these in their hands already? Everywhere I look is sold out.
    - martinpw 2y ago
      It's sold out to the people who have these in their hands already.
- tuananh 2y ago
  it's actually $5090 where I live.
  - blangk 2y ago
    Getting a 5090 for $5090 would be an absolute steal where I live
    - tuananh 2y ago
      it's crazy :-o I cant imagine paying that much for a gpu.
Havoc 2y ago
What’s wild is that this is a company clearly capable of designing highly complex things with numerous tradeoffs, challenges and unknowns. And then the fuckin cable is the issue. Repeatedly.
- buffet_overflow 2y ago
  Reminds me a bit of BMWs and their infamous and persistent coolant pump woes. The running joke in those circles is "replacing the entire cooling system" counts as "basic, regular maintenance". BMW makes a fantastic engine, then makes the water pump impeller out of plastic. For what feels like decades.
  - CommieBobDole 2y ago
    My E39 (which is a beacon of reliability for the brand) had a radiator neck made of a kind of plastic that becomes brittle with prolonged exposure to heat. It's a good thing there's no heat associated with the radiator. "Replace the entire radiator" was a ~70k mile maintenance task.
    - karolist 2y ago
      E39 beacon of reliability, is this sarcasm? I really can't tell
      - CommieBobDole 2y ago
        It's not, actually - the E39s are incredibly reliable compared to more recent models. I drove mine for 20 years. That said, it's the difference between "fairly unreliable" and "spectacularly unreliable".
        CobaltFire 2y ago
        I miss mine enough I’ve been debating on buying another. A 530i Sport with a manual (!!!) popped up near me for a song but I just can’t justify it.
cranium 2y ago
There is a real problem with the connector design somewhere: der8auer tested with his own RTX 5090FE and saw two of the cable strands reach concerning temperatures (>150ºC). Video timestamp: https://youtu.be/Ndmoi1s0ZaY?t=883 https://youtu.be/Ndmoi1s0ZaY?t=883
- deleted 2y ago
  [deleted]
- gambiting 2y ago
  I've tested my own 5090FE the same way he did(Furmark for at least 5 minutes at max load, but I actually ran it for 30 minutes just to be mega sure) and with an infrared thermometer the connector is at 45C on the GPU side and 32C on the PSU side. I have no idea what's happening in his video but something is massively wrong, and I don't understand why he didn't just test it with another PSU/cable.
  - minzi 2y ago
    Are you using the splitter that nvidia provided or a 600w cable? Also, what PSU? I've been using mine remotely, so trying to figure out how much I should panic. I'm running off the SF1000 and the cable it came with. Will be a few weeks before I can measure temperatures.
    - gambiting 2y ago
      The new Corsair RM1000x(ATX 3.1 model), with the included 12V-2x6 cable(so just one connector at the PSU and one at the GPU, no adapter).
      - minzi 2y ago
        Good to know. I guess I'll just hold out hope that things are ok and avoid heavy work loads until I can measure things properly.
  - perching_aix 2y ago
deleted 2y ago
[deleted]
mpreda 2y ago
Step the GPU voltage up to 48V. (anyway you make a new connector that's not compatible with existing PSUs. Why not actually fix a problem at the same time, once and for all! [48V should be enough for anybody, right?])
- Kirby64 2y ago
  Until the US changes their AC power connectors, we just don’t have a use case for it frankly. When the entire system is going to always top out at 1200W or so (so you have an extra few hundred watts for monitors and such), we’re pretty limited to maximum amperage.
  - ielillo 2y ago
    The USA has 240 volt plugs. They are only used for high power appliances such as AC or ovens. If you want, you could add a plug for your high powered space heater AKA gaming PC.
    - Kirby64 2y ago
      I’m aware we have 240V outlets. They are just not used in a place where you would put a PC. Until there is a shift in need (I.e., every normal user would need more than a 120V plug could handle), you won’t ever see 240V outlets in offices. I suspect it will never happen. In server areas and extremely specialized stuff? Yea, sure. But we’re talking desktop PCs here.
      - engineer_22 2y ago
        I envy my European friends' 240v electric kettles
        IsTom 2y ago
        And to drive that point home, we get induction stoves that run on three-phase 400V.
elorant 2y ago
All these incidents are from aftermarket cables.
- sz4kerto 2y ago
  The current within a single cable is something like 25 A according to der3uer's measurements. That's crazy for those thin cables. So if current distribution is so uneven then no cables will be completely safe IMHO.
- deleted 2y ago
  [deleted]
- perching_aix 2y ago
  The cable and the connector are standardized, and no evidence of noncompliance has been demonstrated yet. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ Also note that the only first-party cable NVIDIA provides is an adapter for converting between four 8-pin PCIe power connectors and the 16-pin 12V2x6 power connector. They do not provide a 12V2x6 to 12V2x6 cable nor a 12VHPWR to 12V2x6 cable, you're left with your PSU manufacturer's or other third parties' cables in those scenarios (which would include the reporter's). I will say that it's regrettable that even derbauer's analysis was basically "idk man looks good to me". He did use a cable from the manufacturer of his PSU however at least for his own testing, so if you'd consider that a first or second party product, there you go.
- aaronmdjones 2y ago
  All 12V-2x6 GPU power cables are aftermarket third-party cables. Nvidia doesn't make or supply one because PSUs have different pinouts (or may not be modular in design at all). This isn't any different to the previous situation of PCIe 8-pin power connectors on GPUs that don't come with 8-pin cables. They do ship an adapter for older PSUs. All of those cables and the adapter are all using the same 12VHPWR connector as standardised by PCI-SIG, with the same gauge wire. I find it highly unlikely that any of them are more safe than any other. We really need to get out of the mindset of blaming non-first-party stuff unless one can actually demonstrate an issue with a specific product, such as CableMod's (rightly) recalled right-angle adapter (which wasn't a cable, by the way). At the end of the day this connector has a 10% margin of safety, while a PCIe 8-pin connector had a 92% margin of safety. It is incredibly delicate, much more prone to failure, and will result in a much more spectacular failure when it does fail. It boggles my mind that it hasn't been written off and replaced yet.
dcrazy 2y ago
Is NVIDIA breaching any consumer safety laws by pumping twice the rated current through a 24ish gauge wire? Perhaps by violating their UL certification?
- mminer237 2y ago
  UL is a private company. There're no laws requiring it or penalizing violations. I would think the only legal consequences would be through civil product liability/breach of warranty claims. Plus, like, losing the certification would mean most stores would no longer stock it.
  - reaperman 2y ago
    https://www.cpsc.gov/ https://www.cpsc.gov/
    - dylan604 2y ago
      For how much longer will that .gov website be operating?
  - dcrazy 2y ago
    Many products sold in the United States must be tested in a CPSC-certified lab for conformity, of which UL is the best known. But consumer electronics don’t seem to be among that set, unless they are roped in somehow (maybe for hazardous substances?).
  - singleshot_ 2y ago
    Seems like if you filled your house with non-UL compliant stuff and your house burned down, the first fact would be material to your insurance carrier (you know, the Underwiter to which the UL name refers…)
  - sidewndr46 2y ago
    You might want to do some research on what you can buy and legally plug into your own home. It's more or less you get UL listing, or the product isn't available
renewiltord 2y ago
The thing takes enormous power. Some people had trouble with the 4090s too but I haven’t and I run a shit ton of them.
nickpsecurity 2y ago
This needs a name along the lines of The Red Ring of Death. What will we call it?
- gamesbrainiac 2y ago
  Black goo of doom?
- deleted 2y ago
  [deleted]
xg15 2y ago
At this point, I'm waiting for the first RTX generation that just comes with its own separate PSU and wall plug cable.
- ddalex 2y ago
  People are hooking air con units to liquid GPU coolers https://www.tomshardware.com/pc-components/liquid-cooling/rtx-4090-liquid-cooled-with-12-000-btu-air-conditioner-rtx-5090-up-next-gpu-runs-at-20c https://www.tomshardware.com/pc-components/liquid-cooling/rt...
  - jffry 2y ago
    For what it's worth, the "air conditioner" is just a giant radiator. From the linked bilibili video it's clear (at 1:20 mark) that they've repurposed the radiator, fan, and case from an air conditioner but there is no compressor.
    - ddalex 2y ago
      My calculations show that they should have a working compressor to achieve the reported 20C constant under load
  - albrewer 2y ago
    I've read about this exact practice in one form or another since the Pentium 3 (sometimes just directly cooling with R134).
  - bunabhucan 2y ago
    To get a video card during lockdown someone gave me an invite to a micro center fan discord where people would post timely photos of what was on the shelves. They would also post photos of their crazy hardware, one of which was an air conditioner duct window insert feeding outdoor air to cool the GPUs (mining rig) and exhausting the hot air into a grow tent.
- moosedev 2y ago
  Not quite RTX, but it almost happened, 25 years ago :P http://www.x86-secret.com/articles/divers/v5-6000/v56kgb-6.htm http://www.x86-secret.com/articles/divers/v5-6000/v56kgb-6.h...
karmakaze 2y ago
The extended title and subtitle say a lot. > -- Uneven current distribution likely the culprit > One wire was spotted carrying 22A, more than double the max spec.
JimmyAustin 2y ago
FWIW, I had the same issue with my 3090 (though I believe that uses a slightly different port?). I was using a custom cable like this guy. Nvidia replaced it under warranty, and I went back to using the (ugly) provided adapter.
eqvinox 2y ago
der8auer got his hands on the actual card, cable and PSU: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ndmoi1s0ZaY https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ndmoi1s0ZaY (I'm assuming the content is identical to the German https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=puQ3ayJKWds https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=puQ3ayJKWds - I haven't watched the English one) Notable is that on the PSU connector side, 5 pins show heat damage. That means at minimum those 5 must have been carrying some current; i.e. only one of the 6 connections could have failed completely open. On the PSU one of the ground pins was melted into the PSU connector, this should allow verifying if the plug was fully inserted by a lab disassembling and cross-sectioning it.
wnevets 2y ago
Why are people using 3rd party cables after the 40 series disaster?
- dylan604 2y ago
  they're cheaper?
  - wnevets 2y ago
    That sounds like someone buying a Lamborghini then trying to save money by fueling with regular gas.
    - dylan604 2y ago
      Yeah, the people that buy a Lamborghini are some of the "cheapest" people and will squabble over the smallest of things.
    - bigstrat2003 2y ago
      But with gas the difference is at least somewhat legible to the layman. You see the octane rating and know you're getting something for that extra money. With cables they all look the same to the uninitiated, after all it connects doesn't it? So people are going to go for the cheaper option because they can't discern a reason not to.
      - wnevets 2y ago
        The type of person who owns a 5090 must also be the type of person who knows about the 40 series and it's cable problems. Little timmy building his first PC wasn't camping outside of microcenter for a week just for a chance to spend $2000 on a video card
- NoPicklez 2y ago
  Because often it is the case that third party cables are of higher quality than stock cables, if you purchase from reputable vendors
nubinetwork 2y ago
Someone remind me again why GPUs need 600 watts? I never liked the concept of having to plug a power cable into a GPU, but these new connectors are just terrible...
- kookamamie 2y ago
  The GPUs require additional power, as the PCI-e slot they're connected to can only carry so much. Obviosly there are GPUs without aux power connectors, but they're considered low-tier.
- deleted 2y ago
  [deleted]
- Dylan16807 2y ago
  > Someone remind me again why GPUs need 600 watts? Imagine a GPU that uses fewer watts. Now imagine someone in charge of the high end models makes it bigger until they hit a limit. That limit is generally either chip size or power, and chips have gotten so dense that it's usually not chip size. That's why the very top GPU uses as much power as you can get it.
- imp0cat 2y ago
  Power overwhelming! ;)
- perching_aix 2y ago
  Because it's a competitive industry, and further efficiency gains are either not available ("can't do" option) or were deemed strategically unsound to roll out for now ("won't do" option), possibly both. It's an active dimension of sprawl.
Animats 2y ago
There are plastics that can deal with high temperatures.[1] They're heavily used in automotive applications. They're not often seen inside computers. Still, 50 amps inside a consumer computer is excessive. At some point it's time to go to a higher voltage and get the current down. [1] https://www.plastopialtd.com/high-temperature-plastics/ https://www.plastopialtd.com/high-temperature-plastics/
anthk 2y ago
150 deg? You can nearly bake a pizza with that.
rkagerer 2y ago
Recall in 3, 2, 1...
marcyb5st 2y ago
I hope that a brand that produce PSUs and GPUs develop a higher voltage rail and a card that goes with it as an open standard. Wishful thinking, I know. Especially because I don't even know if they can drift from the nVidia/AMD specs that much before being sanctioned or something. Yeah, they will be more expensive, but I'd rather pay few bucks more and be safer/not to worry to burn my house down.
- mastax 2y ago
  IIRC at the last PC trade show (the one in Taipei) one of the GPU+Motherboard makers was showing a prototype system where the PCIe slot had an additional slot behind it just for power, so no cables were required. Of course then that additional power needs to get into (and flow across) the motherboard somehow.
  - marcyb5st 2y ago
    That would be amazing even though it requires now 3 non standard components (PSU, Motherboard, and GPU). Would still go for it probably
kersplody 2y ago
12vhpwr has almost no safety margin. Any minor problem with it rapidly becomes major. 600W is scary, with reports of 800W spikes. 12V2x6 is particularly problematic because any imbalance, such as a bad connection of a single pin, will quickly push things over spec. For example, at 600W, 8.3A are carried on each pin in the connector. Molex Micro-Fit 3.0 connectors are typically rated to 8.5A -- That's almost no margin. If a single connection is bad, current per connector goes to 10A and we are over spec. And this if things are mated correctly. 8.5A-10A over a partially mated pin will rapidly heat up to the point of melting solder. Hell, the 16 gauge wire typically used is pushing it for 12V/8.5A/100W -- that's rated to 10A. Really would like to see more safety margin with 14 gauge wire. In short, 12V2x6 has very little safety margin. Treat it with respect if you care for your hardware.
- tcdent 2y ago
  This is the most informative assessment in this thread. You'd expect to see the capacity to be 125% as is common in other electrical systems. Ratings for connectors and conductors comes with a temperature spec as well, indicating the intended operating temperature at a load. I'm sure, with this spec being near the limit of the components already, that the operating temperatures near full load are not far from the limit, either. Couple that with materials that may not have even met that spec from the manufacturer and this is what you get. Cheaper ABS plastic on the molex instead of Nylon, PVC insulation on the wire instead of silicone, and you just know the amount of metal in the pins is the bare minimum, too.
  - zamalek 2y ago
    "3rD party connectors" is being waved around by armchair critics. The connectors on the receiving end of all of this aren't some cheap knock-off, they are from a reputable manufacturer and probably exceed the baseline.
    - Ygg2 2y ago
      No sane individual is going to buy 5090 for $2000-100000 and hook it up to a $15 Power supply.
nvarsj 2y ago
I would love to get some insight from Nvidia engineers on what happened here. The 3 series and before were overbuilt in their power delivery system. How did we get from that to the 1 shunt resistor, incredibly dangerous fire-hazard design of the 5 series? [1] Even after the obvious problems with 4 series, Nvidia actually doubled down and made it _worse_! The level of incompetence here is actually astounding to me. Nvidia has some of the top, most well paid EE people in the industry. How the heck did this happen? 1: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kb5YzMoVQyw https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kb5YzMoVQyw
- rangestransform 2y ago
  Not sure if this is related but a friend there said a lot of people retired
  - hipsterstal1n 2y ago
    My boss has a few neighbors who are Nvidia and former Nvidia employees and they're all driving their shiny, fancy sports cars and such and living the high life thanks to the stock they got. It doesn't surprise me they're having churn and / or retiring cutting in to their workforce. Probably not enough to be substantial, but enough to count for something.
- MBCook 2y ago
  Maybe having cards drawing >500/600 watts is just a bad idea. Add in a CPU and such and we’re quickly approaching the maximum amount of power that can be drawn from a standard 12 amp circuit continuously.
  - shawnz 2y ago
    What's the proposal here, just convince everyone to stop demanding more powerful hardware?
    - bongodongobob 2y ago
      Idk but if computers are drawing enough power to melt themselves just to play ray traced Minecraft or write boilerplate Python code, perhaps we've gone wrong somewhere.
ChoGGi 2y ago
Bring back screw in connectors.
snvzz 2y ago
I hope these connectors are transitional and limited to NVIDIA, and not something that the industry adopts moving forward. Instead, a proper standard should be developed.
bastard_op 2y ago
This has been the situation since the last 4090's melting as well. Just check youtube channels for videos of the repairs daily from these folks. It's fun to watch, less if you actually bought one. I wouldn't buy one after watching these and have, period. The rest are beta testers, now two generations in of failure and still lining up in tents.
NotYourLawyer 2y ago
They should pigtail the GPU straight into the AC wall voltage and build in a dedicated power supply to convert to DC.
kristianp 2y ago
On a side note, there are no 5090's on amazon.com, except as part of a system. I suppose this is because any that become available are purchased and amazon doesn't display out of stock items in their search results? There are 5080's. https://www.amazon.com/s?k=nvidia+rtx+5090+32gb+ddr7&i=electronics https://www.amazon.com/s?k=nvidia+rtx+5090+32gb+ddr7&i=elect...
enricojr 2y ago
I've believed for a while now that GPUs are eventually going to get so big they'd need to be external to satisfy power and cooling requirements, and this is just more proof of that IMO. There's a meme image somewhere out there of a GPU crudely photoshopped to look like a split-type AC condenser unit, i.e the kind you mount outside your house. It's pretty much how I picture GPUs will end up if things keep going the way they are.
wasabinator 2y ago
For the current running through these wires I would have never imagined that the gauge they have and the pin spacing would never work. It's nuts.
sandos 2y ago
So when will PCs migrate to 48V? :)
Decabytes 2y ago
I really hope this means that we reign back in the power on these high end cards. 600 what is just too much for a connector like this. 450watts seems much safer (though I wish the spec as a whole had better margins). Nvidia really just tried to pass the 5090 as a new generation by pumping more power through it and it shows.
eemil 2y ago
Why don't they just put two connectors on the 90-series cards?
beebaween 2y ago
Frankly I'd be fine using barrel connectors to power my 5090, heck even consider just directly soldering the connection.
HexPhantom 2y ago
So after all the drama with the 4090, this is where we've landed? Another generation, another round of melted connectors.
tlb 2y ago
I've designed PCBs using connectors with multiple parallel wires to carry high currents. It's hard to do, and very easy to mess up during later PCB changes. You have to match trace resistances from each pin to the destination. The resistance in the traces is probably higher than the resistance in the wires, so the wires don't help balance the current much. It's easy to mess up during minor PCB changes because the netlist doesn't capture the important bit. An autorouter would happily connect the pins of the connector together and cause uneven current sharing.
fennecfoxy 2y ago
Idk why we haven't migrated to better power standards for PC/computers. I loathe those molex connectors, especially the 24-pin mobo one; it's just ridiculously massive/overcomplicated. Like, instead of the very rectangular 24-pin with a flat but wiiiiide cable, why don't we have a circular connector with a circular cable that is a lot more manageable for mini-itx builds.

416 points by ambigious7777 2y ago

Discussion (22 points, 1 day ago, 10 comments) https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=42996057 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=42996057

colechristensen 2y ago

If we’re going to keep up these kilowatt scale cards, we’re just going to need higher voltage rails on PSUs. I had a bunch of similar dumb power connector problems when my 4090 was new.

zamadatix 2y ago
Or 2 cables.
Dylan16807 2y ago
Is it effective to step down from 24/48 volts to the 1-2 range? Or would cards need two stages of voltage conversion?
- mastax 2y ago
  It is tricky but possible. It is being done in the data center for certain hyperscalers. I wonder if Oxide Computer is doing it also, they mentioned a high voltage DC bus I think. https://epc-co.com/epc/about-epc/gan-talk-blog/post/14229/48v-to-1v-conversion-the-rebirth-of-direct-to-chip-power https://epc-co.com/epc/about-epc/gan-talk-blog/post/14229/48... 19V is pretty standard in notebooks so 19-24V could probably be done with fairly little trouble. 48V would entail developing a whole new line of capacitors, inductors, power stages (transistors), and controllers.^1 ^1: yes, of course, 48V compatible components exist for all of those. But the PC industry typically gets components developed for its specific requirements because it has the volume.
  - aaronmdjones 2y ago
    The computer industry already has these. 48-54V PoE (power over ethernet) that ends up being used to power equipment designed to operate at ranges of 1.8-3.3V is extremely common.
- progbits 2y ago
  TL;DR: Yes there is a small difference in efficiency, but it's still plenty efficient. You need a switching regulator for the current 12V anyway (as opposed to linear regulator which are much simpler but basically just burn power to reduce voltage) so the question is if increasing the voltage 2-4x while keeping same power requirements makes a difference. - You need higher voltage rated components (mainly relevant for capacitors), potentially bit more expensive but negligible for GPU costs. The loss due to inductor will be higher too (same DC resistance but higher voltage => higher current, more power), but this is negligible. - On the other hand you need less thick traces/copper, and have more flexibility in the design. For some concrete numbers, here is a random TI regulator datasheet [1], check out figure 45. At 5V 3A output, the difference in efficiency between 12V, 24V and 42V inputs is maybe 5%. I think the main problem is the industry needs to move together. Nvidia can't require 24/48V input before there is standard for it and enough PSUs on the market offer it. This seemingly chicken-and-egg situation has happened in the past a bunch of times, so it's not a big problem, but will take a while. [1] https://www.ti.com/lit/ds/symlink/tps54340.pdf https://www.ti.com/lit/ds/symlink/tps54340.pdf
- anticensor 2y ago
  What if we added one more stage, making it into 230V→24V→5V→1.2V?
lazide 2y ago
Or just give up and provide a wall power cord.
- knowitnone 2y ago
  actually, not a bad idea.
- anticensor 2y ago
  You mean ATX230VO.

wruza 2y ago

Why can’t they just use a cable+socket similar to PSU - wall socket? It’s not even multiple-kilowatts range.

vvv5 2y ago
That connector (C13) is rated for 15 amps. That's 180W at 12V.
- wruza 2y ago
  So heat depends on current, not on power. My research: https://www.reddit.com/r/ElectricalEngineering/comments/15xfet7/soo_what_actually_generates_heat/ https://www.reddit.com/r/ElectricalEngineering/comments/15xf...
  - cwillu 2y ago
    And the card requires up to 600 watts, which is 50 amps if the supply is 12 volts.
  - hgomersall 2y ago
    No it depends on power, but the power dissipated by the cable, not the power through the cable. The power dissipated is i^2 * r, where r is the resistance of the cable and i, crucially, is the current through the cable which depends on the power it's supplying (which with a resistive load, in this case, is i * 12v).
    - gorjusborg 2y ago
      Yes, but it seems the connectors, not the entire cable are too high resistance. Using a larger diameter wire would drop resistance in the cable, but if it has to go through the same connector, it will likely still get hot. Also, NVDA might be telling the truth about poorly seated connectors, that could raise resistance and heat significantly. That could also be handwaving away a business decision to move forward with a design with too little margin.
- 2y ago

lyu07282 2y ago

It's strange how Nvidia just doubled down on a flawed design for no apparent reason. It doesn't even do anything, the adapter is so short you still have the same mess of cables in the front of the case as before.

onli 2y ago
I was under the impression it saves them money. Is that correct? It is also a powerplay. By potentially introducing a PSU connector AMD and Intel do not use they abuse their market power to limit interoperability. Plus probably some internal arrogance about not admitting failures.
- rcarmo 2y ago
  It saves them money on a four-digit MSRP. I think they could afford to be less thrifty.
- bayindirh 2y ago
  > Plus probably some internal arrogance about not admitting failures. Arrogance is good. Accelerates the "forced correction" (aka cluebat) process. NVIDIA needs that badly.
- formerly_proven 2y ago
  I doubt engineering a new connector (I think it's new? Unlike the Mini-Fit Jr which has been around for like 40-50 years) and standing up a supply chain for it could offset the potentially slightly lower BOM cost of using one specialty connector instead of three MiniFit Jr 8-pins. However, three of those would not have been enough for the 4090, nevermind the 5090.
  - lyu07282 2y ago
    > three of those would not have been enough for the 4090, nevermind the 5090. Oh you are right these PCIe power connectors can only draw 150W, so you would need 4 of those for 4090/5090. I guess that makes sense then to create a new standard for it actually, hopefully they can make a newer revision of that connector that makes it safer. In theory with the new standard you can have a single cable from the PSU to the GPU instead of 4, which would be a huge improvement. Except if you use those and then your PC catches fire, you will be blamed by the community for it. People on the reddit thread [1] were arguing that it was his own fault for using a "third party" connector. [1] https://www.reddit.com/r/nvidia/comments/1ilhfk0/rtx_5090fe_molten_12vhpwr/ https://www.reddit.com/r/nvidia/comments/1ilhfk0/rtx_5090fe_...

BigJono 2y ago

This shit is so fucking dumb. Sorry for the unhinged rant, but it's ridiculous how bad every single connector involved with building a PC is in 2025. I'm just a software guy, so maybe some hardware engineer can chime in (and I'd love to find out exactly what I'm missing and why it might be harder than it seems), but why on earth can everything not just be easily accessible and click nicely into place? I'm paying multiple hundred dollars for most of these parts, and multiple thousands for some now that GPUs just get more and more expensive by the year, and the connector quality just gets worse and worse. How much more per unit can proper connectors possibly cost? I still have to sit there stressing out because I have no idea if the PSU<->Mobo power connector is seated properly, I have no idea if the GPU 12VHPWR cable is seated properly, I'm tearing skin off my fingers trying to get the PSU side of the power cables in because they're all seated so closely together, have a microscopic amount of plastic to grip onto making it impossible to get any leverage, and need so much force to seat properly, again with no fucking click. I have no idea if any of the front panel pins are seated properly, I can't even reach half of them even in a full ATX case, fuck me if I want anything smaller, and no matter what order you assemble everything in, something is going to block off access to something else. I'm sure if you work in a PC shop and deal with this 15 times a day you'll have strategies for dealing with it all, but most of us build a PC once every 3 years if that. It feels like as an average user you have zero chance to build any intuition about how any of it works, and it's infuriating that the hardware engineers seem to put in fuck all effort to help their customers assemble their expensive parts without breaking them, or in this case, having them catch fire because something is off by a millimetre. This space feels ripe for a radical re-design.

delichon 2y ago
There exists a perfectly balanced point between usability and affordability that, if it can be achieved, makes exactly nobody happy.
- account42 2y ago
  GP's point is that "affordability" here is penny pinching considering the cost of the components those cables connect (and are usually included with).

emsixteen 2y ago

This same thing happening on the 40 series cards was good enough vindication for me not 'upgrading' to that at the time. I'd rather not burn my house down with my beloved inside. Can't believe the same is happening again.

the__alchemist 2y ago
I can relate to this perspective! It's important to step out of the system and recognize priorities like this; balancing risk and reward. I think, in this particular case, perhaps the risk is not as high as you state? You could imagine a scenario where these connectors could lead to a fire, but I think this is probably a low risk compared to operation of other high-power household appliances. Bad connector design that's easy to over-current? Yes. Notable house-fire risk? Probably not.

whywhywhywhy 2y ago

People are letting their hatred of Nvidia blind them to what happened here, a customer upgraded from a 4090FE to 5090FE, they were using a 3rd party ASUS 12VHPWR cable and didn't realize the 5090FE actually uses 12V-2x6 not 12VHPWR, while the port is the same the pins are different lengths. End of the day PC power cabling is such a shambles with things that look standard but are not so you should only ever really use the cables that came with the product if you don't want to risk issues, especially with this specific ports poor history with 3rd party cables.

0x073 2y ago
"didn't realize the 5090FE actually uses 12V-2x6 not 12VHPWR, while the port is the same the pins are different lengths" Broken by design. I use always the cables that are shipped with the psu and noth the cables from gpu.
jiwidi 2y ago
NVIDIA made the 12V-2x6 port retro compatible with the previous 4000 series 12VHPWR. If you make your port compatible with past gen and it breaks with it its a design flaw, dont make it retro compatible. This is not a user error, this is NVIDIA design error.
account42 2y ago
Wait so Nvdia made a connector that is physically but not electrically compatible with their previous generation and you think that's an argument for not blaming them?
Deathmax 2y ago
The cables between 12V-2x6 and 12VHPWR are identical, it's the port that has different pin lengths (shorter sensing pin, longer conductor pins) to allow for better detection of poorly seated cables and better conductivity while loose.
- whywhywhywhy 2y ago
  Pedantry between "cable" and "connectors" and claiming one if the same doesn't help people understand the situation.

ribcage 2y ago

[dead]

ulfbert_inc 2y ago

Derbauer and Buildzoid on YouTube made nice informative videos on subject, and no it is not "simply a user error". So glad I went with 7900 XTX - should be all set for a couple of years.

CarVac 2y ago
Derbauer: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ndmoi1s0ZaY https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ndmoi1s0ZaY Buildzoid: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kb5YzMoVQyw https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kb5YzMoVQyw I went 7900 GRE, not even considering Nvidia, because I simply do not trust that connector.
whalesalad 2y ago
Enjoying my 7900XTX as well. I really don't understand why nvidia had to pivot to this obscure power connector. It's not like this is a mobile device where that interface is very important - you plug the card in once and forget about it.
- lmm 2y ago
  The new cards need unprecedented amounts of power, the old connectors can't deliver enough.
enragedcacti 2y ago
Summary of the Buildzoid video courtesy of redditors in r/hardware: > TL;DW: The 3090 had 3 shunt resistors set up in a way which distributed the power load evenly among the 6 power-bearing conductors. That's why there were no reports of melted 3090s. The 4090/5090 modified the engineering for whatever reason, perhaps to save on manufacturing costs, and the shunt resistors no longer distribute the power load. Therefore, it's possible for 1 conductor to bear way more power than the rest, and that's how it melts. > The only reason why the problem was considered "fixed" (not really, it wasn't) on the 4090 is that apparently in order to skew the load so much to generate enough heat to melt the connector you'd need for the plug to not be properly seated. However with 600W, as seen on der8auer video, all it takes is one single cable or two making a bit better contact than the rest to take up all the load and, as measured by him, reach 23A. https://old.reddit.com/r/hardware/comments/1imyzgq/how_nvidia_made_the_12vhpwr_connector_even_worse/mc6vh0x/ https://old.reddit.com/r/hardware/comments/1imyzgq/how_nvidi...

misantroop 2y ago

You only paid $2000 for it, what did you expect.

revnode 2y ago
Ha! Find me where I can buy it for $2000.
- tcdent 2y ago
  Yeah, how do people have these in their hands already? Everywhere I look is sold out.
  - martinpw 2y ago
    It's sold out to the people who have these in their hands already.
tuananh 2y ago
it's actually $5090 where I live.
- blangk 2y ago
  Getting a 5090 for $5090 would be an absolute steal where I live
  - tuananh 2y ago
    it's crazy :-o I cant imagine paying that much for a gpu.

Havoc 2y ago

What’s wild is that this is a company clearly capable of designing highly complex things with numerous tradeoffs, challenges and unknowns. And then the fuckin cable is the issue. Repeatedly.

buffet_overflow 2y ago
Reminds me a bit of BMWs and their infamous and persistent coolant pump woes. The running joke in those circles is "replacing the entire cooling system" counts as "basic, regular maintenance". BMW makes a fantastic engine, then makes the water pump impeller out of plastic. For what feels like decades.
- CommieBobDole 2y ago
  My E39 (which is a beacon of reliability for the brand) had a radiator neck made of a kind of plastic that becomes brittle with prolonged exposure to heat. It's a good thing there's no heat associated with the radiator. "Replace the entire radiator" was a ~70k mile maintenance task.
  - karolist 2y ago
    E39 beacon of reliability, is this sarcasm? I really can't tell
    - CommieBobDole 2y ago
      It's not, actually - the E39s are incredibly reliable compared to more recent models. I drove mine for 20 years. That said, it's the difference between "fairly unreliable" and "spectacularly unreliable".
      - CobaltFire 2y ago
        I miss mine enough I’ve been debating on buying another. A 530i Sport with a manual (!!!) popped up near me for a song but I just can’t justify it.

cranium 2y ago

There is a real problem with the connector design somewhere: der8auer tested with his own RTX 5090FE and saw two of the cable strands reach concerning temperatures (>150ºC). Video timestamp: https://youtu.be/Ndmoi1s0ZaY?t=883 https://youtu.be/Ndmoi1s0ZaY?t=883

deleted 2y ago
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gambiting 2y ago
I've tested my own 5090FE the same way he did(Furmark for at least 5 minutes at max load, but I actually ran it for 30 minutes just to be mega sure) and with an infrared thermometer the connector is at 45C on the GPU side and 32C on the PSU side. I have no idea what's happening in his video but something is massively wrong, and I don't understand why he didn't just test it with another PSU/cable.
- minzi 2y ago
  Are you using the splitter that nvidia provided or a 600w cable? Also, what PSU? I've been using mine remotely, so trying to figure out how much I should panic. I'm running off the SF1000 and the cable it came with. Will be a few weeks before I can measure temperatures.
  - gambiting 2y ago
    The new Corsair RM1000x(ATX 3.1 model), with the included 12V-2x6 cable(so just one connector at the PSU and one at the GPU, no adapter).
    - minzi 2y ago
      Good to know. I guess I'll just hold out hope that things are ok and avoid heavy work loads until I can measure things properly.
- perching_aix 2y ago

deleted 2y ago

[deleted]

mpreda 2y ago

Step the GPU voltage up to 48V. (anyway you make a new connector that's not compatible with existing PSUs. Why not actually fix a problem at the same time, once and for all! [48V should be enough for anybody, right?])

Kirby64 2y ago
Until the US changes their AC power connectors, we just don’t have a use case for it frankly. When the entire system is going to always top out at 1200W or so (so you have an extra few hundred watts for monitors and such), we’re pretty limited to maximum amperage.
- ielillo 2y ago
  The USA has 240 volt plugs. They are only used for high power appliances such as AC or ovens. If you want, you could add a plug for your high powered space heater AKA gaming PC.
  - Kirby64 2y ago
    I’m aware we have 240V outlets. They are just not used in a place where you would put a PC. Until there is a shift in need (I.e., every normal user would need more than a 120V plug could handle), you won’t ever see 240V outlets in offices. I suspect it will never happen. In server areas and extremely specialized stuff? Yea, sure. But we’re talking desktop PCs here.
    - engineer_22 2y ago
      I envy my European friends' 240v electric kettles
      - IsTom 2y ago
        And to drive that point home, we get induction stoves that run on three-phase 400V.

elorant 2y ago

All these incidents are from aftermarket cables.

sz4kerto 2y ago
The current within a single cable is something like 25 A according to der3uer's measurements. That's crazy for those thin cables. So if current distribution is so uneven then no cables will be completely safe IMHO.
deleted 2y ago
[deleted]
perching_aix 2y ago
The cable and the connector are standardized, and no evidence of noncompliance has been demonstrated yet. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ Also note that the only first-party cable NVIDIA provides is an adapter for converting between four 8-pin PCIe power connectors and the 16-pin 12V2x6 power connector. They do not provide a 12V2x6 to 12V2x6 cable nor a 12VHPWR to 12V2x6 cable, you're left with your PSU manufacturer's or other third parties' cables in those scenarios (which would include the reporter's). I will say that it's regrettable that even derbauer's analysis was basically "idk man looks good to me". He did use a cable from the manufacturer of his PSU however at least for his own testing, so if you'd consider that a first or second party product, there you go.
aaronmdjones 2y ago
All 12V-2x6 GPU power cables are aftermarket third-party cables. Nvidia doesn't make or supply one because PSUs have different pinouts (or may not be modular in design at all). This isn't any different to the previous situation of PCIe 8-pin power connectors on GPUs that don't come with 8-pin cables. They do ship an adapter for older PSUs. All of those cables and the adapter are all using the same 12VHPWR connector as standardised by PCI-SIG, with the same gauge wire. I find it highly unlikely that any of them are more safe than any other. We really need to get out of the mindset of blaming non-first-party stuff unless one can actually demonstrate an issue with a specific product, such as CableMod's (rightly) recalled right-angle adapter (which wasn't a cable, by the way). At the end of the day this connector has a 10% margin of safety, while a PCIe 8-pin connector had a 92% margin of safety. It is incredibly delicate, much more prone to failure, and will result in a much more spectacular failure when it does fail. It boggles my mind that it hasn't been written off and replaced yet.

dcrazy 2y ago

Is NVIDIA breaching any consumer safety laws by pumping twice the rated current through a 24ish gauge wire? Perhaps by violating their UL certification?

mminer237 2y ago
UL is a private company. There're no laws requiring it or penalizing violations. I would think the only legal consequences would be through civil product liability/breach of warranty claims. Plus, like, losing the certification would mean most stores would no longer stock it.
- reaperman 2y ago
  https://www.cpsc.gov/ https://www.cpsc.gov/
  - dylan604 2y ago
    For how much longer will that .gov website be operating?
- dcrazy 2y ago
  Many products sold in the United States must be tested in a CPSC-certified lab for conformity, of which UL is the best known. But consumer electronics don’t seem to be among that set, unless they are roped in somehow (maybe for hazardous substances?).
- singleshot_ 2y ago
  Seems like if you filled your house with non-UL compliant stuff and your house burned down, the first fact would be material to your insurance carrier (you know, the Underwiter to which the UL name refers…)
- sidewndr46 2y ago
  You might want to do some research on what you can buy and legally plug into your own home. It's more or less you get UL listing, or the product isn't available

renewiltord 2y ago

The thing takes enormous power. Some people had trouble with the 4090s too but I haven’t and I run a shit ton of them.

nickpsecurity 2y ago

This needs a name along the lines of The Red Ring of Death. What will we call it?

gamesbrainiac 2y ago
Black goo of doom?
deleted 2y ago
[deleted]

xg15 2y ago

At this point, I'm waiting for the first RTX generation that just comes with its own separate PSU and wall plug cable.

ddalex 2y ago
People are hooking air con units to liquid GPU coolers https://www.tomshardware.com/pc-components/liquid-cooling/rtx-4090-liquid-cooled-with-12-000-btu-air-conditioner-rtx-5090-up-next-gpu-runs-at-20c https://www.tomshardware.com/pc-components/liquid-cooling/rt...
- jffry 2y ago
  For what it's worth, the "air conditioner" is just a giant radiator. From the linked bilibili video it's clear (at 1:20 mark) that they've repurposed the radiator, fan, and case from an air conditioner but there is no compressor.
  - ddalex 2y ago
    My calculations show that they should have a working compressor to achieve the reported 20C constant under load
- albrewer 2y ago
  I've read about this exact practice in one form or another since the Pentium 3 (sometimes just directly cooling with R134).
- bunabhucan 2y ago
  To get a video card during lockdown someone gave me an invite to a micro center fan discord where people would post timely photos of what was on the shelves. They would also post photos of their crazy hardware, one of which was an air conditioner duct window insert feeding outdoor air to cool the GPUs (mining rig) and exhausting the hot air into a grow tent.
moosedev 2y ago
Not quite RTX, but it almost happened, 25 years ago :P http://www.x86-secret.com/articles/divers/v5-6000/v56kgb-6.htm http://www.x86-secret.com/articles/divers/v5-6000/v56kgb-6.h...

karmakaze 2y ago

The extended title and subtitle say a lot. > -- Uneven current distribution likely the culprit > One wire was spotted carrying 22A, more than double the max spec.

JimmyAustin 2y ago

FWIW, I had the same issue with my 3090 (though I believe that uses a slightly different port?). I was using a custom cable like this guy. Nvidia replaced it under warranty, and I went back to using the (ugly) provided adapter.

eqvinox 2y ago

der8auer got his hands on the actual card, cable and PSU: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ndmoi1s0ZaY https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ndmoi1s0ZaY (I'm assuming the content is identical to the German https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=puQ3ayJKWds https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=puQ3ayJKWds - I haven't watched the English one) Notable is that on the PSU connector side, 5 pins show heat damage. That means at minimum those 5 must have been carrying some current; i.e. only one of the 6 connections could have failed completely open. On the PSU one of the ground pins was melted into the PSU connector, this should allow verifying if the plug was fully inserted by a lab disassembling and cross-sectioning it.

wnevets 2y ago

Why are people using 3rd party cables after the 40 series disaster?

dylan604 2y ago
they're cheaper?
- wnevets 2y ago
  That sounds like someone buying a Lamborghini then trying to save money by fueling with regular gas.
  - dylan604 2y ago
    Yeah, the people that buy a Lamborghini are some of the "cheapest" people and will squabble over the smallest of things.
  - bigstrat2003 2y ago
    But with gas the difference is at least somewhat legible to the layman. You see the octane rating and know you're getting something for that extra money. With cables they all look the same to the uninitiated, after all it connects doesn't it? So people are going to go for the cheaper option because they can't discern a reason not to.
    - wnevets 2y ago
      The type of person who owns a 5090 must also be the type of person who knows about the 40 series and it's cable problems. Little timmy building his first PC wasn't camping outside of microcenter for a week just for a chance to spend $2000 on a video card
NoPicklez 2y ago
Because often it is the case that third party cables are of higher quality than stock cables, if you purchase from reputable vendors

nubinetwork 2y ago

Someone remind me again why GPUs need 600 watts? I never liked the concept of having to plug a power cable into a GPU, but these new connectors are just terrible...

kookamamie 2y ago
The GPUs require additional power, as the PCI-e slot they're connected to can only carry so much. Obviosly there are GPUs without aux power connectors, but they're considered low-tier.
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Dylan16807 2y ago
> Someone remind me again why GPUs need 600 watts? Imagine a GPU that uses fewer watts. Now imagine someone in charge of the high end models makes it bigger until they hit a limit. That limit is generally either chip size or power, and chips have gotten so dense that it's usually not chip size. That's why the very top GPU uses as much power as you can get it.
imp0cat 2y ago
Power overwhelming! ;)
perching_aix 2y ago
Because it's a competitive industry, and further efficiency gains are either not available ("can't do" option) or were deemed strategically unsound to roll out for now ("won't do" option), possibly both. It's an active dimension of sprawl.

Animats 2y ago

There are plastics that can deal with high temperatures.[1] They're heavily used in automotive applications. They're not often seen inside computers. Still, 50 amps inside a consumer computer is excessive. At some point it's time to go to a higher voltage and get the current down. [1] https://www.plastopialtd.com/high-temperature-plastics/ https://www.plastopialtd.com/high-temperature-plastics/

anthk 2y ago

150 deg? You can nearly bake a pizza with that.

rkagerer 2y ago

Recall in 3, 2, 1...

marcyb5st 2y ago

I hope that a brand that produce PSUs and GPUs develop a higher voltage rail and a card that goes with it as an open standard. Wishful thinking, I know. Especially because I don't even know if they can drift from the nVidia/AMD specs that much before being sanctioned or something. Yeah, they will be more expensive, but I'd rather pay few bucks more and be safer/not to worry to burn my house down.

mastax 2y ago
IIRC at the last PC trade show (the one in Taipei) one of the GPU+Motherboard makers was showing a prototype system where the PCIe slot had an additional slot behind it just for power, so no cables were required. Of course then that additional power needs to get into (and flow across) the motherboard somehow.
- marcyb5st 2y ago
  That would be amazing even though it requires now 3 non standard components (PSU, Motherboard, and GPU). Would still go for it probably

kersplody 2y ago

12vhpwr has almost no safety margin. Any minor problem with it rapidly becomes major. 600W is scary, with reports of 800W spikes. 12V2x6 is particularly problematic because any imbalance, such as a bad connection of a single pin, will quickly push things over spec. For example, at 600W, 8.3A are carried on each pin in the connector. Molex Micro-Fit 3.0 connectors are typically rated to 8.5A -- That's almost no margin. If a single connection is bad, current per connector goes to 10A and we are over spec. And this if things are mated correctly. 8.5A-10A over a partially mated pin will rapidly heat up to the point of melting solder. Hell, the 16 gauge wire typically used is pushing it for 12V/8.5A/100W -- that's rated to 10A. Really would like to see more safety margin with 14 gauge wire. In short, 12V2x6 has very little safety margin. Treat it with respect if you care for your hardware.

tcdent 2y ago
This is the most informative assessment in this thread. You'd expect to see the capacity to be 125% as is common in other electrical systems. Ratings for connectors and conductors comes with a temperature spec as well, indicating the intended operating temperature at a load. I'm sure, with this spec being near the limit of the components already, that the operating temperatures near full load are not far from the limit, either. Couple that with materials that may not have even met that spec from the manufacturer and this is what you get. Cheaper ABS plastic on the molex instead of Nylon, PVC insulation on the wire instead of silicone, and you just know the amount of metal in the pins is the bare minimum, too.
- zamalek 2y ago
  "3rD party connectors" is being waved around by armchair critics. The connectors on the receiving end of all of this aren't some cheap knock-off, they are from a reputable manufacturer and probably exceed the baseline.
  - Ygg2 2y ago
    No sane individual is going to buy 5090 for $2000-100000 and hook it up to a $15 Power supply.

nvarsj 2y ago

I would love to get some insight from Nvidia engineers on what happened here. The 3 series and before were overbuilt in their power delivery system. How did we get from that to the 1 shunt resistor, incredibly dangerous fire-hazard design of the 5 series? [1] Even after the obvious problems with 4 series, Nvidia actually doubled down and made it _worse_! The level of incompetence here is actually astounding to me. Nvidia has some of the top, most well paid EE people in the industry. How the heck did this happen? 1: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kb5YzMoVQyw https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kb5YzMoVQyw

rangestransform 2y ago
Not sure if this is related but a friend there said a lot of people retired
- hipsterstal1n 2y ago
  My boss has a few neighbors who are Nvidia and former Nvidia employees and they're all driving their shiny, fancy sports cars and such and living the high life thanks to the stock they got. It doesn't surprise me they're having churn and / or retiring cutting in to their workforce. Probably not enough to be substantial, but enough to count for something.
MBCook 2y ago
Maybe having cards drawing >500/600 watts is just a bad idea. Add in a CPU and such and we’re quickly approaching the maximum amount of power that can be drawn from a standard 12 amp circuit continuously.
- shawnz 2y ago
  What's the proposal here, just convince everyone to stop demanding more powerful hardware?
  - bongodongobob 2y ago
    Idk but if computers are drawing enough power to melt themselves just to play ray traced Minecraft or write boilerplate Python code, perhaps we've gone wrong somewhere.

ChoGGi 2y ago

Bring back screw in connectors.

snvzz 2y ago

I hope these connectors are transitional and limited to NVIDIA, and not something that the industry adopts moving forward. Instead, a proper standard should be developed.

bastard_op 2y ago

This has been the situation since the last 4090's melting as well. Just check youtube channels for videos of the repairs daily from these folks. It's fun to watch, less if you actually bought one. I wouldn't buy one after watching these and have, period. The rest are beta testers, now two generations in of failure and still lining up in tents.

NotYourLawyer 2y ago

They should pigtail the GPU straight into the AC wall voltage and build in a dedicated power supply to convert to DC.

kristianp 2y ago

On a side note, there are no 5090's on amazon.com, except as part of a system. I suppose this is because any that become available are purchased and amazon doesn't display out of stock items in their search results? There are 5080's. https://www.amazon.com/s?k=nvidia+rtx+5090+32gb+ddr7&i=electronics https://www.amazon.com/s?k=nvidia+rtx+5090+32gb+ddr7&i=elect...

enricojr 2y ago

I've believed for a while now that GPUs are eventually going to get so big they'd need to be external to satisfy power and cooling requirements, and this is just more proof of that IMO. There's a meme image somewhere out there of a GPU crudely photoshopped to look like a split-type AC condenser unit, i.e the kind you mount outside your house. It's pretty much how I picture GPUs will end up if things keep going the way they are.

wasabinator 2y ago

For the current running through these wires I would have never imagined that the gauge they have and the pin spacing would never work. It's nuts.

sandos 2y ago

So when will PCs migrate to 48V? :)

Decabytes 2y ago

I really hope this means that we reign back in the power on these high end cards. 600 what is just too much for a connector like this. 450watts seems much safer (though I wish the spec as a whole had better margins). Nvidia really just tried to pass the 5090 as a new generation by pumping more power through it and it shows.

eemil 2y ago

Why don't they just put two connectors on the 90-series cards?

beebaween 2y ago

Frankly I'd be fine using barrel connectors to power my 5090, heck even consider just directly soldering the connection.

HexPhantom 2y ago

So after all the drama with the 4090, this is where we've landed? Another generation, another round of melted connectors.

tlb 2y ago

I've designed PCBs using connectors with multiple parallel wires to carry high currents. It's hard to do, and very easy to mess up during later PCB changes. You have to match trace resistances from each pin to the destination. The resistance in the traces is probably higher than the resistance in the wires, so the wires don't help balance the current much. It's easy to mess up during minor PCB changes because the netlist doesn't capture the important bit. An autorouter would happily connect the pins of the connector together and cause uneven current sharing.

fennecfoxy 2y ago

Idk why we haven't migrated to better power standards for PC/computers. I loathe those molex connectors, especially the 24-pin mobo one; it's just ridiculously massive/overcomplicated. Like, instead of the very rectangular 24-pin with a flat but wiiiiide cable, why don't we have a circular connector with a circular cable that is a lot more manageable for mini-itx builds.