17 ms·

Hit men aren't what you think

158 points by tzs 2y ago

notamy 2y ago
http://archive.today/gM6MG http://archive.today/gM6MG
nirav72 2y ago
The shooter used a rare weapon with an integrated suppressor (or "Silencer" as the article indicates). A British made station six 9. I wonder if that will be the focus of investigators, since its an highly unusual weapon.
- deleted 2y ago
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- jvanderbot 2y ago
  Last time I looked, that's not clear, actually. That he manually cycled the action could be indicative of a bolt-action pistol, OR it could be indicative of subsonic rounds or a heavy suppressor with a non-modified action. Basically adding weight to the weapon or reducing recoil makes it harder for the gas-operated action to automatically cycle, so you have to cycle manually. Are we sure of the weapon type? I've heard that there was live ammunition recovered at the scene, and that basically means the action was manually cycled to clear a jammed round. At this point it's hard to rule out a janky weapon with homemade suppressor, or a rare specialized weapon as you suggest.
- dole 2y ago
  News is saying he used a B&T Station Six, it doesn't look like he's twisting to operate a Welrod action in the video to me. It looks like he's racking a slide. He doesn't hesitate like he discovers it's jammed after the first shot, he already goes to rack it because the subsonic cartridges he's using won't cycle the action with the (edit:) suppressor on without a Neilsen device.
  - someothherguyy 2y ago
    Here is a video of someone shooting a suppressed pistol with a suppressor with a booster and without a booster: https://www.youtube.com/embed/wOexPK63jx0?mute=1;autoplay=1 https://www.youtube.com/embed/wOexPK63jx0?mute=1;autoplay=1
  - lazystar 2y ago
    the news is wrong, per the gun type. surprising?
- someothherguyy 2y ago
  That may make the video of the killing make more sense, given the action of the weapon. Here is a video of someone firing it (not the killing): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JKei5sySmB0&t=503s https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JKei5sySmB0&t=503s
- sky_rw 2y ago
  There is an absolute zero chance that he used a B&T Station 6. The media, as usual, is 100% wrong.
  - SV_BubbleTime 2y ago
    It is hilarious how bad the media is about guns, but understandable when gun people for the most part are also bad about guns. It looks to me like a subcompact with no booster in the can. He is already dropping the gun to rack after the first shot, he knew it would need it, but it isn’t the welrod’s twist and pull. Good for B&T sales though.
    - ablation 2y ago
      You seem to know what you’re talking about. I have no clue or idea whatsoever about firearms. Why is he racking it each time? I’ve never seen that before in my extremely limited knowledge of guns.
      - BoxFour 2y ago
        Suppressors can interfere with the auto cycling mechanism, so you have to manually cycle it.
        SV_BubbleTime 2y ago
        They’re not supposed to. This is what a booster in a handgun silencer does.
      - magicalhippo 2y ago
        Here's my understanding. Semi-automatic pistols predominantly rely on recoil to cycle the action, in one way or another. If you are firing subsonic ammunition, to avoid the loud supersonic crack, then you typically get less recoil[1] compared to a firing supersonic ammunition due to the reduced speed of the bullet. In some firearms you can replace parts such a recoil springs to get the weapon to cycle reliably with subsonic ammunition, but if that is not done you will need to manually operate the action[2]. A few firearms even supports disabling the semi-automatic action, as the sound of the action cycling can actually be quite loud in comparison to a suppressed subsonic shot. [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Momentum#Classical https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Momentum#Classical [2]: This can be more error-prone, if the action partially cycles.
- SV_BubbleTime 2y ago
  > The shooter used a rare weapon with an integrated suppressor (or "Silencer" as the article indicates). A British made station six 9. Hilarious how bad this is. - No, it’s not the B&T. He racks it straight back, and releases to spring pressure. The Welrod/Six is twist and pull and push. It was a compact or subcompact, with either the wrong booster or no booster in a can - There is a puff of smoke per shot on the left side of the handgun. The Six is a locked breech gun, it doesn’t really smoke per shot at the chamber, and its chamber isn’t on the left side, it is on top. Again, this was a normal likely browning style action handgun, left side action, unlocks per shot even if it doesn’t cycle fully. - No, the B&T Six is not British made, it is a Swiss update of the WWII British Welrod - The original and the legal term is silencer. No quotes needed. Stop believing the media reports on anything gun related.
  - someothherguyy 2y ago
    > It was a compact or subcompact, with either the wrong booster or no booster in a can Isn't this speculating as well?
    - SV_BubbleTime 2y ago
      It’s all speculation until we see the gun. The point is to speculate with things that fit vs made up nonsense that is clearly untrue. It looks like a full-size can and a subcompact to me. And I would know, because I own all those things and have used them in that configuration. The problem I have is that anyone would PLAN on going in to a murder with no booster. Yes, it will likely work almost every time. But sometimes it won’t, and it will stovepipe, and the only way to fix it is to drop the mag out, clear, mag back in and rack. I’m an expert, and I wouldn’t want to rely on that path.
- deleted 2y ago
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- redprince 2y ago
  That is kind of doubtful. The video clearly shows a small puff of smoke presumably above the ejection port when he fires the gun for the first time. The Welrod and its modern descendants have a bolt which is locked in position when the gun is fired and it has to be cycled manually. Thus no gas would escape the gun at the ejection port when the gun is fired. It is more likely that this is a semi-automatic pistol which will not cycle properly for one reason or another and the shooter has to manually complete the cycle by racking the slide.
cthalupa 2y ago
From my understanding, hitmen in general are not what you see in movies or video games. Many of them are just everyday criminals that are willing to take on the job of murdering someone for shockingly low amounts of money. I'm sure there are higher end and higher cost options, but I don't think every hitman out there is going to be as put together as the villain from a Bond or Bourne movie.
- lupire 2y ago
  Bourne was a hit man.
  - gerikson 2y ago
    Bourne is fictional.
  - marcosdumay 2y ago
    Well, technically "was". The entire trilogy happens because he stops being one.
  - cthalupa 2y ago
    Several of the villains he encounters are hit men he formerly worked with. But I also don't believe it is particularly relevant to the point, either way - surely you understood the intent of the reference?
- tsss 2y ago
  Your typical hitman is probably an 18 year old small-time criminal riding a motorcycle in a t-shirt and without shoes. Ride up to the target, shoot in face, ride away. There's no way police could follow a motorcycle in the chaotic traffic of South America where this typically happens.
itsanaccount 2y ago
[flagged]
- nickff 2y ago
  This phrase: "responsible for so many deaths" is doing a lot of work in your post. What is your theory of responsibility? Is it legal or ethical, and if it is the latter (as I would suspect), what framework and criteria is it evaluated under? The answer is easy for a serial killer (obviously responsible for willful murder), a little more difficult for a soldier in war (directly responsible, but perhaps defending themselves and/or under orders), even tougher for a surgeon (maybe they could have been better at their job), and very difficult indeed for an insurance executive.
  - itsanaccount 2y ago
    You know why I don't work for a trapping and pest control company? Because structurally they kill animals. They go around with tools of destruction and end the lives of animals. Its the function of their existence. Do you know why I don't work for a _for profit_ health insurance company, who's stated goals are explicitly to make profit by slicing out some amount of premiums that are not spent to provide healthcare in a world in which total health expenditures can be* effectively infinite? Same reason. Also this tends to do it for me: https://arstechnica.com/health/2023/11/ai-with-90-error-rate-forces-elderly-out-of-rehab-nursing-homes-suit-claims/ https://arstechnica.com/health/2023/11/ai-with-90-error-rate... Do CEOs run companies or don't they?
    - nickff 2y ago
      If your definition of responsibility is so broad, wouldn't every Head of Government for every country be deserving of assassination? Even more broadly, every police chief in every large city, along with all military officers, most mayors, governors, and premiers would also be 'natural targets'. This seems a bit drastic to me, is it your view?
      - JKCalhoun 2y ago
int_19h 2y ago
Growing up in Russia in the 90s, assassinations (usually of folk associated with various organized crime groups, but also the occasional journalist or politician) were fairly common. As I recall, usually the person would get shot with some common weapon - often milsurp TT - somewhere in their daily routine where there aren't people around, e.g. on the stairs in their apartment building. But sometimes you did get more spectacular hits; there was that one time when a local crime boss was shot with a rifle while dining in a restaurant, through the window.
- sakopov 2y ago
  Yep. Grew up in the 90s Russia. Every spring when the snow melted you had bodies show up in nearby forests. It was such a common thing people started calling them snowdrops (after the first flower of spring). Everyone tried to keep cash in USD and you often got better rates from the guys selling currency in the streets. These guys were dying like flies. I've lost count how many times we'd find dismembered hand or foot while at a family outing in nature. Nobody reported any of this stuff because the cops were often bought by these criminal organizations. It was truly a wild west.
  - tomcam 2y ago
    > people started calling them snowdrops I adore the Russian sense of humor.
- userabchn 2y ago
  My suspicion is that this murder was organised by Russia as an attempt to normalise and encourage further vigilante actions, thereby weakening society. They chose their target well for this one, but I imagine, even after the shift it has caused in what is considered acceptable, there will be less widespread approval of future killings.
  - deleted 2y ago
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  - beefnugs 2y ago
jawns 2y ago
[flagged]
- lazystar 2y ago
  cool story, bro
- sureglymop 2y ago
  And while never directly interacting is important, feel absolutely free to post about it on a public online forum without even a guaranteed option to delete your comment, that doesn't matter.
orwin 2y ago
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- deleted 2y ago
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michaeljx 2y ago
I don't understand the comments excusing the CEO of his responsibility. I work for a scale-up insurance company, and the CEOs are pretty clear with their mandate: customer service is paramount, we make money by streamlining our processes, negotiating hard with our network, and pricing properly our products. NOT by denying claims. This philosophy is enforced from the top all the way down, with Chinese walls between pricing and claims handling, proper training, and continuous NPS surveys
- avalys 2y ago
  How do you avoid losing money due to fraudulent claims, claims for services outside the scope of what you're insuring against, claims for ineffective resolutions to the claimed damages, etc.? Am I supposed to know what a "scale-up insurance company" is?
  - michaeljx 2y ago
    Scale-up means youngish (10-12years old), mid-size in the countries we are operating, think 3 countries 600-800m revenue. Fraudulent claims are a tiny percentage of claims, and are rejected after human review, usually involving detectives. In the countries we operate, fraudulent claims are about 6-8% of all claims, and that's usually the level we aim to detect. Being able to absorb some false negatives is usually cheaper than going for the full 100% detection rate. It is definitely more customer oriented than rejecting due to false positives.
    - avalys 2y ago
      Is this a health insurance company or are you providing property insurance?
      - michaeljx 2y ago
        No this is general insurance (motor, property, travel etc). It is also founder-led, which is an important factor, as the reason they started it was their personal frustration with the motor insurances.
jongjong 2y ago
I suppose everyone assumes that being high profile and earning a multi-million dollar salary involves such risks naturally so it's not shocking when it happens. Why didn't he have security? In NYC? TBH, I'm kind of shocked it doesn't happen more often in a nation with over 300 million people and insanely high inequality... Especially in terms of media exposure, not just money. There is a reason why most humans are naturally afraid of public speaking. Introversion is a survival trait. This trait was useful to survival 100+ years ago. The fear of the public lost much of its utility, but did it lose all utility? The kind of scale and centralization of human awareness we have today is unprecedented in human history. Are populations THAT much more passive as humans compared to before? Or do people just have a bigger fuse which takes longer to pop? I come from a small state with a small half-a-million population where there is high inequality and I have had extended family members (who were among the elites of that society) who were shot and killed. Our house would get robbed 4 to 8 times a year. It's just normal when you live in an unequal society. As a comparison, my grandparents said they would sleep with their windows open back in their day (same country, just different times). It's not just inequality BTW; it's also about expectations. High inequality is fine if those who have nothing have low demands and accept their position in society. It's a real problem when they don't. People in the street of the capital would give you a death stare if you looked privileged. This may be the reality that America is heading for if inequality continues to get worse.
- acdha 2y ago
  > I suppose everyone assumes that being high profile and earning a multi-million dollar salary involves such risks naturally so it's not shocking when it happens. Why didn't he have security? In NYC? Your point about income inequality is important but NYC is one of the safest cities in the country: https://engineering.nyu.edu/news/nyc-ranks-safest-among-big-us-cities-gun-violence-new-research-nyu-tandon-school-engineering https://engineering.nyu.edu/news/nyc-ranks-safest-among-big-... It gets covered a lot because it’s a massive media hub and also a tempting political target for Republicans but the average person in NYC is more likely to need to worry about getting hit by a car, especially if they’re not engaging in high-risk activities. Muggers target drunk people leaving clubs at 3am in dodgy parts of town. They’re not gunning tourists down in Manhattan because that guarantees a police response. Brian Thompson wasn’t born rich - according to Wikipedia his father worked at a grain elevator - and he probably retained that middle class sensibility of not feeling targeted even as he got wealthy. People don’t want to think of themselves as targets, and they don’t want to give up the privacy and independence which having a security detail involves. If he wasn’t involved with one of the most hated companies in the country, that almost certainly would have been fine.
Orlado 2y ago
[flagged]
erulabs 2y ago
As far as I’ve read, historically speaking, most assassinations are crimes of passion. When Japan’s government was “government by assassination” in the early 1900s, most of the assassins were not hired guns but instead true believers. Ultra nationalists who were proud to “die for the cause”. When evaluating a mystery you need to be careful not to sell yourself on the one that is more titillating, all things being equal. The story that involves unbelievable sadness and anger is usually more likely than the one the involves deception and intrigue.
- tliltocatl 2y ago
  I think it's just that political assassinations are better documented. Money flow control-related stuff usually goes unnoticed, and frequently there are all parts involved that would prefer it to go unnoticed.
chomskyole 2y ago
I really think we need to have a discussion around what we consider acts of violence. It is clear that violence was used in this instance. We don't like violence. Killing someone is an act of violence. That is easy. But how about ruining someone financially? Is this an act of violence? Could it be an act of violence under certain conditions? How about letting someone die in order to make more money? Let's say the decision is about the price for a certain treatment and you are balancing profit expectations from investors. Is this an act of violence? I'd imagine that the outcome of deaths could probably estimated quite reliably in this instance. And you would need to justify the various salaries and profits along the way and weighing it up against the number of people suffering. Does this sound violent to you? EDIT: And I'm particularly keen to hear from the downvoters about this. Always keen on good arguments. Thanks :)
- BoxFour 2y ago
  > I really think we need to have a discussion around what we consider acts of violence. Do we? The term "violence" centers around the idea of using physical force. If you mean that certain acts are just as morally contemptible as violence, or equally likely to cause harm, just say that directly. Please don’t dilute the term “violence,” or we’ll have to find another word to describe intentional harm using physical force.
  - chomskyole 2y ago
    > Do we? The term "violence" centers around the idea of using physical force. It absolutely doesn't. Historically we judged laws as violent. Germany stands as an example. > Please don’t dilute the term “violence,” or we’ll have to find another word to describe intentional harm using physical force. Causing intentional harm is a pretty good definition of violence, don't you think? EDIT: for instance paying someone to do physical harm. How would you assess this?
    - Method-X 2y ago
      > Causing intentional harm is a pretty good definition of violence, don't you think? And then the next step is diluting the meaning of the word “harm.” Is hurting someone’s feelings causing harm?
deleted 2y ago
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empty_space 2y ago
Remember that the current narrative is an average person with nothing to lose taking down a powerful person who uses their power for greed and evil. That's a very powerful and empowering idea. Other powerful people, who know they are just as greedy and evil, desperately want to change that narrative because they know how weak their position truly is if we collectively decide we're done with the capitalistic status quo. Bringing in an "expert" to explain to how it's probably something else, without any evidence to support that hypothesis, and while completely ignoring the observer bias of the chosen expert, is a good example of trying to subvert the story.
- Mordisquitos 2y ago
  > Bringing in an "expert" to explain to how it's probably something else, without any evidence to support that hypothesis [...] Where in the article do you get that impression? All I see is the expert saying it is unlikely to have been a contract killing, as the MO doesn't fit with that of a professional hitman.
asalahli 2y ago
Another analysis, by a firearms lawyer, that also reaches the same conclusion https://youtu.be/374TRuxEDck https://youtu.be/374TRuxEDck
ozgrakkurt 2y ago
What is more interesting is the way people feel about this, obviously many people think the current healthcare situation is insane and malicious. But there is basically zero political will to change this situation. This maybe shows US isn’t really a democracy and more of an oligarchy at this point.
- cmpalmer52 2y ago
  I think this last election has confirmed that.
deleted 2y ago
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rolph 2y ago
the hitman refered to was very sloppy and very obvious, this is not the way pros do it. a pro job doesnt look like murder; a proxy may be arrested, but later sprung by an agent.
- PUSH_AX 2y ago
  Thanks, great insight 47.
  - anodari 2y ago
    You're welcome, 86
- parpfish 2y ago
  "trust me, i've seen lots of movies"
big-green-man 2y ago
This is an interview with someone presented as some type of expert that obviously is not an expert. 1) it is not hard to get a silencer. You can make one in under an hour with cheap parts from a hardware store and a drill. 2) the CEO was at a conference. It's not surprising that this person "knew he would be there", it's interesting that this interviewee stresses this point like it is some big one to be made. The CEO of a big company in an industry will of course be at a big industry conference. You can say "how did he know he would be exiting that door" or something, but it's not like he was sneaking out the back exit. Hes probably coming out the door where the limo is parked or whatever. I agree this was probably not a professional hit, but this was very clearly well planned out with limited knowledge. I don't think it's as simple as a disgruntled family member of a medical patient or something. It's likely this was something much more serious, but not billionaire behind the scenes business politics or something. Those kind of guys, while we like to pretend would be the last guys to know where to find professional killers, they all know where to find professional killers. I'd guess this guy was into something he shouldn't have been into with some unsavory people.
- JamesBarney 2y ago
  I really don't think most billionaires know professional killers. Where would they have met them? The idea that someone at JP Morgan introduces you to them when their company IPOs doesn't pass the smell test for me.
  - dgfitz 2y ago
    I think it’s the classic “hey personal assistant to whom I pay 200k/yr, I have a problem, can you handle it discretely?” Kind of thing.
    - deadbabe 2y ago
      Fast way to get blackmailed and end up in prison. You need to get connections by ensuring the person recommending you a pro-killer has incentive to ensure you are not discovered.

158 points by tzs 2y ago

http://archive.today/gM6MG http://archive.today/gM6MG

The shooter used a rare weapon with an integrated suppressor (or "Silencer" as the article indicates). A British made station six 9. I wonder if that will be the focus of investigators, since its an highly unusual weapon.

deleted 2y ago
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jvanderbot 2y ago
Last time I looked, that's not clear, actually. That he manually cycled the action could be indicative of a bolt-action pistol, OR it could be indicative of subsonic rounds or a heavy suppressor with a non-modified action. Basically adding weight to the weapon or reducing recoil makes it harder for the gas-operated action to automatically cycle, so you have to cycle manually. Are we sure of the weapon type? I've heard that there was live ammunition recovered at the scene, and that basically means the action was manually cycled to clear a jammed round. At this point it's hard to rule out a janky weapon with homemade suppressor, or a rare specialized weapon as you suggest.
dole 2y ago
News is saying he used a B&T Station Six, it doesn't look like he's twisting to operate a Welrod action in the video to me. It looks like he's racking a slide. He doesn't hesitate like he discovers it's jammed after the first shot, he already goes to rack it because the subsonic cartridges he's using won't cycle the action with the (edit:) suppressor on without a Neilsen device.
- someothherguyy 2y ago
  Here is a video of someone shooting a suppressed pistol with a suppressor with a booster and without a booster: https://www.youtube.com/embed/wOexPK63jx0?mute=1;autoplay=1 https://www.youtube.com/embed/wOexPK63jx0?mute=1;autoplay=1
- lazystar 2y ago
  the news is wrong, per the gun type. surprising?
someothherguyy 2y ago
That may make the video of the killing make more sense, given the action of the weapon. Here is a video of someone firing it (not the killing): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JKei5sySmB0&t=503s https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JKei5sySmB0&t=503s
sky_rw 2y ago
There is an absolute zero chance that he used a B&T Station 6. The media, as usual, is 100% wrong.
- SV_BubbleTime 2y ago
  It is hilarious how bad the media is about guns, but understandable when gun people for the most part are also bad about guns. It looks to me like a subcompact with no booster in the can. He is already dropping the gun to rack after the first shot, he knew it would need it, but it isn’t the welrod’s twist and pull. Good for B&T sales though.
  - ablation 2y ago
    You seem to know what you’re talking about. I have no clue or idea whatsoever about firearms. Why is he racking it each time? I’ve never seen that before in my extremely limited knowledge of guns.
    - BoxFour 2y ago
      Suppressors can interfere with the auto cycling mechanism, so you have to manually cycle it.
      - SV_BubbleTime 2y ago
        They’re not supposed to. This is what a booster in a handgun silencer does.
    - magicalhippo 2y ago
      Here's my understanding. Semi-automatic pistols predominantly rely on recoil to cycle the action, in one way or another. If you are firing subsonic ammunition, to avoid the loud supersonic crack, then you typically get less recoil[1] compared to a firing supersonic ammunition due to the reduced speed of the bullet. In some firearms you can replace parts such a recoil springs to get the weapon to cycle reliably with subsonic ammunition, but if that is not done you will need to manually operate the action[2]. A few firearms even supports disabling the semi-automatic action, as the sound of the action cycling can actually be quite loud in comparison to a suppressed subsonic shot. [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Momentum#Classical https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Momentum#Classical [2]: This can be more error-prone, if the action partially cycles.
SV_BubbleTime 2y ago
> The shooter used a rare weapon with an integrated suppressor (or "Silencer" as the article indicates). A British made station six 9. Hilarious how bad this is. - No, it’s not the B&T. He racks it straight back, and releases to spring pressure. The Welrod/Six is twist and pull and push. It was a compact or subcompact, with either the wrong booster or no booster in a can - There is a puff of smoke per shot on the left side of the handgun. The Six is a locked breech gun, it doesn’t really smoke per shot at the chamber, and its chamber isn’t on the left side, it is on top. Again, this was a normal likely browning style action handgun, left side action, unlocks per shot even if it doesn’t cycle fully. - No, the B&T Six is not British made, it is a Swiss update of the WWII British Welrod - The original and the legal term is silencer. No quotes needed. Stop believing the media reports on anything gun related.
- someothherguyy 2y ago
  > It was a compact or subcompact, with either the wrong booster or no booster in a can Isn't this speculating as well?
  - SV_BubbleTime 2y ago
    It’s all speculation until we see the gun. The point is to speculate with things that fit vs made up nonsense that is clearly untrue. It looks like a full-size can and a subcompact to me. And I would know, because I own all those things and have used them in that configuration. The problem I have is that anyone would PLAN on going in to a murder with no booster. Yes, it will likely work almost every time. But sometimes it won’t, and it will stovepipe, and the only way to fix it is to drop the mag out, clear, mag back in and rack. I’m an expert, and I wouldn’t want to rely on that path.
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redprince 2y ago
That is kind of doubtful. The video clearly shows a small puff of smoke presumably above the ejection port when he fires the gun for the first time. The Welrod and its modern descendants have a bolt which is locked in position when the gun is fired and it has to be cycled manually. Thus no gas would escape the gun at the ejection port when the gun is fired. It is more likely that this is a semi-automatic pistol which will not cycle properly for one reason or another and the shooter has to manually complete the cycle by racking the slide.

cthalupa 2y ago

From my understanding, hitmen in general are not what you see in movies or video games. Many of them are just everyday criminals that are willing to take on the job of murdering someone for shockingly low amounts of money. I'm sure there are higher end and higher cost options, but I don't think every hitman out there is going to be as put together as the villain from a Bond or Bourne movie.

lupire 2y ago
Bourne was a hit man.
- gerikson 2y ago
  Bourne is fictional.
- marcosdumay 2y ago
  Well, technically "was". The entire trilogy happens because he stops being one.
- cthalupa 2y ago
  Several of the villains he encounters are hit men he formerly worked with. But I also don't believe it is particularly relevant to the point, either way - surely you understood the intent of the reference?
tsss 2y ago
Your typical hitman is probably an 18 year old small-time criminal riding a motorcycle in a t-shirt and without shoes. Ride up to the target, shoot in face, ride away. There's no way police could follow a motorcycle in the chaotic traffic of South America where this typically happens.

itsanaccount 2y ago

[flagged]

nickff 2y ago
This phrase: "responsible for so many deaths" is doing a lot of work in your post. What is your theory of responsibility? Is it legal or ethical, and if it is the latter (as I would suspect), what framework and criteria is it evaluated under? The answer is easy for a serial killer (obviously responsible for willful murder), a little more difficult for a soldier in war (directly responsible, but perhaps defending themselves and/or under orders), even tougher for a surgeon (maybe they could have been better at their job), and very difficult indeed for an insurance executive.
- itsanaccount 2y ago
  You know why I don't work for a trapping and pest control company? Because structurally they kill animals. They go around with tools of destruction and end the lives of animals. Its the function of their existence. Do you know why I don't work for a _for profit_ health insurance company, who's stated goals are explicitly to make profit by slicing out some amount of premiums that are not spent to provide healthcare in a world in which total health expenditures can be* effectively infinite? Same reason. Also this tends to do it for me: https://arstechnica.com/health/2023/11/ai-with-90-error-rate-forces-elderly-out-of-rehab-nursing-homes-suit-claims/ https://arstechnica.com/health/2023/11/ai-with-90-error-rate... Do CEOs run companies or don't they?
  - nickff 2y ago
    If your definition of responsibility is so broad, wouldn't every Head of Government for every country be deserving of assassination? Even more broadly, every police chief in every large city, along with all military officers, most mayors, governors, and premiers would also be 'natural targets'. This seems a bit drastic to me, is it your view?
    - JKCalhoun 2y ago

int_19h 2y ago

Growing up in Russia in the 90s, assassinations (usually of folk associated with various organized crime groups, but also the occasional journalist or politician) were fairly common. As I recall, usually the person would get shot with some common weapon - often milsurp TT - somewhere in their daily routine where there aren't people around, e.g. on the stairs in their apartment building. But sometimes you did get more spectacular hits; there was that one time when a local crime boss was shot with a rifle while dining in a restaurant, through the window.

sakopov 2y ago
Yep. Grew up in the 90s Russia. Every spring when the snow melted you had bodies show up in nearby forests. It was such a common thing people started calling them snowdrops (after the first flower of spring). Everyone tried to keep cash in USD and you often got better rates from the guys selling currency in the streets. These guys were dying like flies. I've lost count how many times we'd find dismembered hand or foot while at a family outing in nature. Nobody reported any of this stuff because the cops were often bought by these criminal organizations. It was truly a wild west.
- tomcam 2y ago
  > people started calling them snowdrops I adore the Russian sense of humor.
userabchn 2y ago
My suspicion is that this murder was organised by Russia as an attempt to normalise and encourage further vigilante actions, thereby weakening society. They chose their target well for this one, but I imagine, even after the shift it has caused in what is considered acceptable, there will be less widespread approval of future killings.
- deleted 2y ago
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- beefnugs 2y ago

jawns 2y ago

[flagged]

lazystar 2y ago
cool story, bro
sureglymop 2y ago
And while never directly interacting is important, feel absolutely free to post about it on a public online forum without even a guaranteed option to delete your comment, that doesn't matter.

orwin 2y ago

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deleted 2y ago
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michaeljx 2y ago

I don't understand the comments excusing the CEO of his responsibility. I work for a scale-up insurance company, and the CEOs are pretty clear with their mandate: customer service is paramount, we make money by streamlining our processes, negotiating hard with our network, and pricing properly our products. NOT by denying claims. This philosophy is enforced from the top all the way down, with Chinese walls between pricing and claims handling, proper training, and continuous NPS surveys

avalys 2y ago
How do you avoid losing money due to fraudulent claims, claims for services outside the scope of what you're insuring against, claims for ineffective resolutions to the claimed damages, etc.? Am I supposed to know what a "scale-up insurance company" is?
- michaeljx 2y ago
  Scale-up means youngish (10-12years old), mid-size in the countries we are operating, think 3 countries 600-800m revenue. Fraudulent claims are a tiny percentage of claims, and are rejected after human review, usually involving detectives. In the countries we operate, fraudulent claims are about 6-8% of all claims, and that's usually the level we aim to detect. Being able to absorb some false negatives is usually cheaper than going for the full 100% detection rate. It is definitely more customer oriented than rejecting due to false positives.
  - avalys 2y ago
    Is this a health insurance company or are you providing property insurance?
    - michaeljx 2y ago
      No this is general insurance (motor, property, travel etc). It is also founder-led, which is an important factor, as the reason they started it was their personal frustration with the motor insurances.

jongjong 2y ago

I suppose everyone assumes that being high profile and earning a multi-million dollar salary involves such risks naturally so it's not shocking when it happens. Why didn't he have security? In NYC? TBH, I'm kind of shocked it doesn't happen more often in a nation with over 300 million people and insanely high inequality... Especially in terms of media exposure, not just money. There is a reason why most humans are naturally afraid of public speaking. Introversion is a survival trait. This trait was useful to survival 100+ years ago. The fear of the public lost much of its utility, but did it lose all utility? The kind of scale and centralization of human awareness we have today is unprecedented in human history. Are populations THAT much more passive as humans compared to before? Or do people just have a bigger fuse which takes longer to pop? I come from a small state with a small half-a-million population where there is high inequality and I have had extended family members (who were among the elites of that society) who were shot and killed. Our house would get robbed 4 to 8 times a year. It's just normal when you live in an unequal society. As a comparison, my grandparents said they would sleep with their windows open back in their day (same country, just different times). It's not just inequality BTW; it's also about expectations. High inequality is fine if those who have nothing have low demands and accept their position in society. It's a real problem when they don't. People in the street of the capital would give you a death stare if you looked privileged. This may be the reality that America is heading for if inequality continues to get worse.

acdha 2y ago
> I suppose everyone assumes that being high profile and earning a multi-million dollar salary involves such risks naturally so it's not shocking when it happens. Why didn't he have security? In NYC? Your point about income inequality is important but NYC is one of the safest cities in the country: https://engineering.nyu.edu/news/nyc-ranks-safest-among-big-us-cities-gun-violence-new-research-nyu-tandon-school-engineering https://engineering.nyu.edu/news/nyc-ranks-safest-among-big-... It gets covered a lot because it’s a massive media hub and also a tempting political target for Republicans but the average person in NYC is more likely to need to worry about getting hit by a car, especially if they’re not engaging in high-risk activities. Muggers target drunk people leaving clubs at 3am in dodgy parts of town. They’re not gunning tourists down in Manhattan because that guarantees a police response. Brian Thompson wasn’t born rich - according to Wikipedia his father worked at a grain elevator - and he probably retained that middle class sensibility of not feeling targeted even as he got wealthy. People don’t want to think of themselves as targets, and they don’t want to give up the privacy and independence which having a security detail involves. If he wasn’t involved with one of the most hated companies in the country, that almost certainly would have been fine.

Orlado 2y ago

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erulabs 2y ago

As far as I’ve read, historically speaking, most assassinations are crimes of passion. When Japan’s government was “government by assassination” in the early 1900s, most of the assassins were not hired guns but instead true believers. Ultra nationalists who were proud to “die for the cause”. When evaluating a mystery you need to be careful not to sell yourself on the one that is more titillating, all things being equal. The story that involves unbelievable sadness and anger is usually more likely than the one the involves deception and intrigue.

tliltocatl 2y ago
I think it's just that political assassinations are better documented. Money flow control-related stuff usually goes unnoticed, and frequently there are all parts involved that would prefer it to go unnoticed.

chomskyole 2y ago

I really think we need to have a discussion around what we consider acts of violence. It is clear that violence was used in this instance. We don't like violence. Killing someone is an act of violence. That is easy. But how about ruining someone financially? Is this an act of violence? Could it be an act of violence under certain conditions? How about letting someone die in order to make more money? Let's say the decision is about the price for a certain treatment and you are balancing profit expectations from investors. Is this an act of violence? I'd imagine that the outcome of deaths could probably estimated quite reliably in this instance. And you would need to justify the various salaries and profits along the way and weighing it up against the number of people suffering. Does this sound violent to you? EDIT: And I'm particularly keen to hear from the downvoters about this. Always keen on good arguments. Thanks :)

BoxFour 2y ago
> I really think we need to have a discussion around what we consider acts of violence. Do we? The term "violence" centers around the idea of using physical force. If you mean that certain acts are just as morally contemptible as violence, or equally likely to cause harm, just say that directly. Please don’t dilute the term “violence,” or we’ll have to find another word to describe intentional harm using physical force.
- chomskyole 2y ago
  > Do we? The term "violence" centers around the idea of using physical force. It absolutely doesn't. Historically we judged laws as violent. Germany stands as an example. > Please don’t dilute the term “violence,” or we’ll have to find another word to describe intentional harm using physical force. Causing intentional harm is a pretty good definition of violence, don't you think? EDIT: for instance paying someone to do physical harm. How would you assess this?
  - Method-X 2y ago
    > Causing intentional harm is a pretty good definition of violence, don't you think? And then the next step is diluting the meaning of the word “harm.” Is hurting someone’s feelings causing harm?

deleted 2y ago

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empty_space 2y ago

Remember that the current narrative is an average person with nothing to lose taking down a powerful person who uses their power for greed and evil. That's a very powerful and empowering idea. Other powerful people, who know they are just as greedy and evil, desperately want to change that narrative because they know how weak their position truly is if we collectively decide we're done with the capitalistic status quo. Bringing in an "expert" to explain to how it's probably something else, without any evidence to support that hypothesis, and while completely ignoring the observer bias of the chosen expert, is a good example of trying to subvert the story.

Mordisquitos 2y ago
> Bringing in an "expert" to explain to how it's probably something else, without any evidence to support that hypothesis [...] Where in the article do you get that impression? All I see is the expert saying it is unlikely to have been a contract killing, as the MO doesn't fit with that of a professional hitman.

asalahli 2y ago

Another analysis, by a firearms lawyer, that also reaches the same conclusion https://youtu.be/374TRuxEDck https://youtu.be/374TRuxEDck

ozgrakkurt 2y ago

What is more interesting is the way people feel about this, obviously many people think the current healthcare situation is insane and malicious. But there is basically zero political will to change this situation. This maybe shows US isn’t really a democracy and more of an oligarchy at this point.

cmpalmer52 2y ago
I think this last election has confirmed that.

deleted 2y ago

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rolph 2y ago

the hitman refered to was very sloppy and very obvious, this is not the way pros do it. a pro job doesnt look like murder; a proxy may be arrested, but later sprung by an agent.

PUSH_AX 2y ago
Thanks, great insight 47.
- anodari 2y ago
  You're welcome, 86
parpfish 2y ago
"trust me, i've seen lots of movies"

big-green-man 2y ago

This is an interview with someone presented as some type of expert that obviously is not an expert. 1) it is not hard to get a silencer. You can make one in under an hour with cheap parts from a hardware store and a drill. 2) the CEO was at a conference. It's not surprising that this person "knew he would be there", it's interesting that this interviewee stresses this point like it is some big one to be made. The CEO of a big company in an industry will of course be at a big industry conference. You can say "how did he know he would be exiting that door" or something, but it's not like he was sneaking out the back exit. Hes probably coming out the door where the limo is parked or whatever. I agree this was probably not a professional hit, but this was very clearly well planned out with limited knowledge. I don't think it's as simple as a disgruntled family member of a medical patient or something. It's likely this was something much more serious, but not billionaire behind the scenes business politics or something. Those kind of guys, while we like to pretend would be the last guys to know where to find professional killers, they all know where to find professional killers. I'd guess this guy was into something he shouldn't have been into with some unsavory people.

JamesBarney 2y ago
I really don't think most billionaires know professional killers. Where would they have met them? The idea that someone at JP Morgan introduces you to them when their company IPOs doesn't pass the smell test for me.
- dgfitz 2y ago
  I think it’s the classic “hey personal assistant to whom I pay 200k/yr, I have a problem, can you handle it discretely?” Kind of thing.
  - deadbabe 2y ago
    Fast way to get blackmailed and end up in prison. You need to get connections by ensuring the person recommending you a pro-killer has incentive to ensure you are not discovered.