20 ms·

Only 5.3% of US welders are women. After years as a professor, I became one

291 points by Michelangelo11 2y ago

akira2501 2y ago
> I’m resentful of these silent evaluations, particularly when I’m learning something new and trying to keep all my fingers. I don't think this is unique to Women at all. There's a tendency in these authors to perceive Men's interactions in the workplace as "easy" or "natural" or even desired for some reason. They typically aren't. > Stoicism is a workaround to credibility. It also comes with a high price. Those who pay it typically do not last. Ironically they often refuse to recognize the source of their suffering. If the job is hard, modify the tools to make it easier, your class of use just hasn't been typically considered but it wouldn't be impossible to create. > The pontificating metal-shop customer should be, too. It's everywhere. The number of times my credibility has been assumed based upon my appearance is huge. Customers often have to choose between two Men if a Women isn't working, and the same tropes apply there as well. It all seems like the right idea for the wrong reasons and so the interpretation is heavily compromised by it.
- ksenzee 2y ago
  [flagged]
- bsder 2y ago
  Yeah, my overall reaction was kinda "Welcome to being a dude. You get shit on mercilessly until you prove otherwise. You get told to shut the fuck up and knock it out even if you're tired after 4 hours. You have to look out for yourself because nobody else is going to. God help you if you're a tiny or effeminate guy. etc." Blue collar work sucks ass. You generally only do it because you don't have any better options.
  - Seattle3503 2y ago
    Physical demands aside, must it be that way culturaly?
gaze 2y ago
I just bought a gas lens set for my welder and it included cups called the BBW and the FUPA. When I was taking MIG classes, they had a jar of anti-spatter gel called cooter snot tip dip. Can’t imagine why women are so rare in the profession… I’ve been a tourist in a number of different trades, and welding beats them all for hostility and resistance to safety practices. You get called a pussy for wearing a mask, but of course the manganese fumes from welding steel will give you brain damage. I’ve been advised to run cutoff wheels far above their rated RPM, which risks explosion. It’s sad because welding might as well some combination of knitting and calligraphy but with metal. It’s great.
- 2OEH8eoCRo0 2y ago
  [flagged]
- kleton 2y ago
  Cooter is a Black dialectal term for a turtle originating from the Mandinka language, and you can see a turtle on the logo of that product.
  - AceJohnny2 2y ago
    that's called "plausible deniability"
    - WorkerBee28474 2y ago
      Deniability for accurate and true reasons is just a subset of plausible deniability
  - gaze 2y ago
    I’m glad someone is here to argue on behalf of the cooter snot company.
  - evilduck 2y ago
    Are turtles also known for their snot, in which tips are frequently dipped?
naming_the_user 2y ago
What comes across from the article to me is the class barrier more than the gender one - basically it's a posh person finding out what the "real world" looks like. Shop talk and banter are fairly universal. Any difference is going to be a target. Thin bloke who doesn't look strong enough? Ginger hair? Tall guy, short guy? Weird tattoo, etc. Definitely the one black guy or the one white guy is going to get shit. But is it malicious? Almost certainly not. The other thing, which in my experience is relatively common worldwide, is that working class communities are more accepting of male-female dynamics. In academia and in highbrow society the tendency is to basically sanitise every social interaction. When you're in an environment where that isn't happening then you can't suddenly ignore it any more.
- scotty79 2y ago
  > Any difference is going to be a target. Those are primary school rules. Seeing adults living like that is shocking.
  - rootusrootus 2y ago
    Primary schoolers are the sweetest people in the world. It is middle schoolers that express adult emotions with no filter. Fortunately the filter does get more effective with practice, but it is always worth remembering that at their core, most people are not fundamentally different than they were in middle school.
  - verisimi 2y ago
    Seeing adults pretending not to notice differences is also shocking, funny too.
    - scotty79 2y ago
      I'm sure they see the differences, just decide to evaluate them as irrelevant. Which is their right as adults.
- Rendello 2y ago
  It was interesting for me going from interacting with wealthy, educated developers, to working in a very physical, low-paying blue-collar job. It seemed like living in two different worlds almost. > working class communities are more accepting of male-female dynamics I'm curious to what you mean by this
readthenotes1 2y ago
[flagged]
aaron695 2y ago
If you want to look at hidden GDP women and access to power tools is probably a big one. Lighter batteries and brushless and mass production allowing for a quick jump in and companies like Ryobi's making tools look good (but not cliched pink) and how-to's on TikTok have changed the landscape. We have gone from upkeep at home to asset building. Some of this will go to careers, but it's not that simple. HN isn't mature enough to discuss this but men die in dirty jobs, no one really cares. For every one who dies many are hurt and for the many injuries there are many many near misses. A near miss is often about reaction times and strength. These 1% issues are the problem. You are 3 hours from anywhere and stuck in mud by yourself and the tool kit is missing. So you can get the 5.3% up, but it can't be 50%
- tstrimple 2y ago
  > A near miss is often about reaction times and strength. Funny, I thought it was about safety procedures and culture. Leaving accident avoidance up to reflexes is an incredibly poor way to build anything safely right?
deleted 2y ago
[deleted]
christophilus 2y ago
I once met a welder who was told upon entering the field, “You’re going to meet a lot of serial killers in this line of work.” He thought his boss was just messing with him, but it turned out to be prophetic. He met something like 5 convicted serial killers in 20 years as a welder. Welding is solitary work that is itinerant. Some of the stories that guy told me would turn your stomach. Anyway— totally off topic, but I thought it was interesting.
- SoftTalker 2y ago
  I don't know about serial killers, normally they are in prison if known. But felons, yes definitely. A criminal record is not disqualifying in most trades and unions.
  - 1123581321 2y ago
    Meaning was probably that the coworkers were later discovered and convicted of multiple murders, not working with felon status. :)
- brodouevencode 2y ago
  My experience w/ metal workers of all types holds true to this. I think it's the fumes.
  - eYrKEC2 2y ago
    That theory does make sense. Half of serial killers have had traumatic brain injuries -- this would just be more of the same.
  - MisterTea 2y ago
    Seconded. Hiring Machinists at work we went through a few ex cons and wound up hiring one for a few years which turned out to be a nightmare. Now we have a hippy in a band who makes inappropriate comments. You cant win.
    - 2y ago
Dazzler5648 2y ago
Are there actually any women in this conversation? I find many of the comments at YC to be obnoxiously male dominant and condescending, this comment section included. It's been frustrating me for quite a while now. Would guess only 5.3% of YC readers are female. And would say, it's posh, not "real world," and it's not comfortable even though I'm a very strong woman - and a welder.
- righthand 2y ago
  [flagged]
- rickmortythrow 2y ago
  > Are there actually any women in this conversation? I think the average demographic here is the standard software engineering team in the US, unfortunately. I hope I'm wrong. There are some high profile HN'ers that are women (e.g. DoreenMichele comes to mind). Fun fact: in eastern Europe (and Russia too?) the gender dynamics of software engineering are much more gender equal compared to the US/EU. Probably other STEM disciplines as well. I'm not sure about welding though. I'm getting a bit side tracked with my thoughts, it's just that I think it ties into bigger issues. I remember once being in a feminism class, as the only male, making a case for getting women into stem and it fell on deaf ears. I think that's also in part because women (and men for that matter) that take feminism classes tend to skew liberal artsy. I just happen to have a liberal artsy side and a STEM side (and a cool feminism teacher that was patient enough for all my naive questions so I felt emotionally safe to take her class). I wish there were more women in the conversation but unfortunately there aren't. The last company I worked for happened to have an equal 50/50 gender split. That was cool. It confirmed what I thought about men and women: ignore gender and focus on personality and their thoughts. I've often been in situations where any form of stereotypes have been thrown out of the window and my last employer was one of them. It's beautiful. Unfortunately, HN seems to be too big for that. The culture needs to shift and I don't have much of a clue how. I think in part it's with how women versus men are socialized here. Boys that are socially excluded tend to go towards computers. Girls don't really seem to be socially excluded that often compared to boys? Just brainstorming, I might be totally off. > Are there actually any women in this conversation? I find many of the comments at YC to be obnoxiously male dominant and condescending, this comment section included. It's been frustrating me for quite a while now. I'm curious how you find them frustrating. When I was reading them, I wasn't quite sure what to think about it. By the way, I've used a throwaway because of my submission to HN, not because of this comment. I thought I was on my pseudonym account. I have autism (diagnosed in my mid thirties) and I think many people here are on the spectrum, which is what my submission is about.
justsomehnguy 2y ago
> Like other tradeswomen, I’ve learned to work around unwanted comments, including uninvited conversations with men bent on signaling their expertise. It's obvious why an uninvited conversations are perceived as a sexism. But anyone with the experience in almost anything but particularly in any trade would tell you what men do receive uninvited conversations with men bent on signaling their expertise all the goddamn time. Sure, seeing 'a woman out of place' triggers some of them to do it when they wouldn't do it with a man in the same place, because they could get told to shove their oh-so-important opinion to the place where sun is not shining, but the source of this behaviour is not to be a sexist asshole but just being an asshole. As the other comment rightfully notes, any difference is going to be a target.
- globular-toast 2y ago
  I've had men try to teach me stuff a bunch of times. I listen, learn, and thank them.
  - themaninthedark 2y ago
    Yeah, same here. Even if I know what I am doing, sometime I learn something new or a new way to approach something. Sometimes not. But then hey, free advice is worth what you paid for it.
    - rootusrootus 2y ago
      > free advice is worth what you paid for it. Occasionally. Many times it is worth considerably less. Time is valuable.
- arkh 2y ago
  > receive uninvited conversations with men bent on signaling their expertise all the goddamn time My father was a mechanic. He learnt fast to stop trying to correct know-it-alls about cars. "Let 'em do stupid shit, it gives us work to bill".
- deskr 2y ago
burnt-resistor 2y ago
Cool. I keep wondering if Kurtis from Cutting Edge Engineering will eventually borrow the camera and have Karen do some gouging, metal deposition, and/or MIG welding on stuff to show how fun it is. Also, the combination of liquid nitrogen and flame for interference fit parts is pretty cool too.
rurban 2y ago
Women would be much better welders than men, because they don't wear their testicle outside close to the welding area, avoiding the most common welders desease, testicular cancer. In the European eastern block countries there are much more female welders. Welders don't really like their plastic testicles.
mgarfias 2y ago
The photos of the welds made me think she needs to goto welding school. Ugh. I’m a total hack and can do better.
- sambapa 2y ago
  Yeah, those TIG welds are something else, verging on trolling
  - blitzar 2y ago
    I went looking for it and got distracted by the faux wood grain paint on the aluminium frame.
- deleted 2y ago
  [deleted]
- jandrese 2y ago
  It is annoying to be generally in support of diversity but then you get a case comes where someone is claiming discrimination and it turns out they just suck at their job. This sort of thing is just ammunition for the "dumb, barefoot, pregnant, and in the kitchen" crowd.
- martin293 2y ago
  I know barely anything about welding, could you explain what a good weld would look like?
  - _whiteCaps_ 2y ago
    Some examples of a good weld: https://s3.amazonaws.com/uploads.bmxmuseum.com/user-images/236303/11986582_1065577020143426_5195198252051622409_n6138184f1a.jpg https://s3.amazonaws.com/uploads.bmxmuseum.com/user-images/2... https://s3.amazonaws.com/uploads.bmxmuseum.com/user-images/236303/90-degree-tubular-mig-welding613818ce62.jpg https://s3.amazonaws.com/uploads.bmxmuseum.com/user-images/2... Steady hands and a good rhythm are helpful. I won the top welding student award at my high school. The competition wasn't great. Mostly, I just didn't smoke a ton of pot right before class.
skinkestek 2y ago
> “You’re better looking than the guy I talked to before.” Such harassment remains common for tradeswomen If people think this is harassment, no wonder people experience a lot of harassment. Unless there was more to it the correct answer is along the lines of "yes thankfully" and then a laugh. I'd recommend a good look in the mirror when looking for the problem in such situations. Same goes for the thing about trying to discreetly notifying that someone has dirty hands: Yes, I don't know what is up with Americans and demanding everyone has clean hands at all times, but as long as that is a thing this probably is meant as a favor. Maybe clumsily, but still. More generally the saying: "when you hear hooves, think horses, not zebras" comes to mind: If you expect things to be meant funny or helpful (and give people some slack) maybe life becomes a lot less stressful than if everything has to be seen through a lens of gender dynamics. And if one is known as a reasonable person, I guess people will also take your side if you have to be loud and clear about something, e.g. if it turns out someone wasn't just clumsily trying to be nice or funny.
- blitzar 2y ago
  I still get flashes of the traumatic day when I was in the kitchen area at work making myself a cup of tea and one of the female employees came in and said "You are a strong and tall man, can you get that heavy box from the top shelf for me".
  - kazinator 2y ago
    I had that happen numerous times in supermarkets.
    - blitzar 2y ago
      The supermarket encounters are most often dirty old women who are still stuck in the past, or have gotten away with it for so long they just don't know any better.
      - pessimizer 2y ago
        It's not sexual harassment, it's flattery to get you to do a favor for them. They would never sleep with you. It's also extremely normal and anodyne. Why do men think sexism is symmetrical? The reason sexual overtures from men are a problem is because they are usually serious and they are statistically threatening, because men often hurt women who don't respond to them in a way they deem appropriate. You would never fear this woman.
graycat 2y ago
Welding Example: Brother and I bought and old Chevy. Front end parts so badly worn that could turn steering wheel about 20 degrees before the wheels moved! Used bumper jacks to raise the front end and rest it on concrete blocks. Took out everything from the steering wheel to the front wheel. The springs were dangerous -- kaBOOM! Took the worn parts to a Chevy parts department -- they enjoyed helping a teenager do it yourself, first time. Installed the new parts: Had no spring compressor so used two bumper jacks; had them supporting the car while also using the jacks on the lower A-frames to compress the springs. kaBOOM! as one of the jacks slipped, the spring expanded, the lower A-frame rotated ~180 degrees and hit near the center of the frame (but not me!). Drove the car to our Buick dealer (family car was a Buick) to have the front end aligned. Mechanic was surprised and pleased to see the work done -- all nice clean parts correctly installed! But he said he couldn't do the alignment because he needed a bending bar for the king pin (vertical heavy iron bar connecting the outer ends of the lower and upper A-frames) so sent me to the shop of a friend. The friend said "Bet you got these nuts too tight ... no you didn't. How'd you know to do that?" Had read a maintenance manual at the city library. He said "We get those manuals ..."! Shocks were part of the upper A-frame pivots and poor. At a parts shop, got two piston shocks that looked about right, were officially for some Mercury car, and drove to a muffler shop for the needed welding. The shop was pleased to help a do it yourself teenager and with a challenge well outside their usual welding. So, with some fabrication and welding, they got each shock attached to the frame and the front side of the lower A-frame. Worked great for years! Lesson connected with the OP: People can like helping a teenager do it yourself, alone, a first time, with too little or nothing in information and tools and facing some danger. The muffler shop liked the challenge of doing the one-off, first-time, innovative fabrication and welding! Such a teenager can get a good welcome and respect.
- mmooss 2y ago
  The welcome they get may depend on their race and gender.
cynicalsecurity 2y ago
Why would you want more women to become welders? What's your motivation?
- avhon1 2y ago
  So that there can be more welders?
- DFHippie 2y ago
  I'm not the author, but there are a lot of motivations one could have. The less people are constrained by stereotypes and hostility, the more they can do what they want to do, the more likely they are to be able to make a living, the less they will be beset with self-doubt, the less they will be dominated and abused by others who have more opportunities. It's about freedom. Why shouldn't women be free to be welders if they want to be? The more women are welders, the weaker the social constraints become against women being welders; or things like welders, because the stereotypes we're talking about aren't generally so narrow. Women aren't a special case. Lots of people are hemmed in by stereotypes and biases. Why shouldn't they be free? Well, people who get the opportunities others are fenced out of do benefit from the biases, but that's not a noble motivation.
cynicalsecurity 2y ago
> You’re better looking than the guy I talked to before.” Such harassment remains common for tradeswomen... This is not harassment.
- alwa 2y ago
  Why should somebody’s attractiveness or looks be part of a “I need stuff welded” conversation at all?
  - mhb 2y ago
    Because people interact? Offensiveness is not "harassment".
  - Veen 2y ago
    Because we are evolved, embodied beings interacting with other embodied beings. We are not disembodied atomistic work units compelled to follow social norms invented by maladjusted corporate "ethicists".
  - ThrowawayTestr 2y ago
    It's a joke. Jokes are a common feature of conversation.
mhb 2y ago
OK, I'll ask. What's wrong with using a tape measure the way the guy suggested to measure a length of pipe?
- class3shock 2y ago
  Best guess is the tolerance required for the pipe length was tighter than you can reliably get going off of a tape measure foot (which are often loose, worn, bent, etc. and not a reliable starting/zero point for precision measurement).
  - mhb 2y ago
    OK thanks. I wonder if there are a lot of cases in which cutting and welding an 8 foot pipe requires the accuracy that that method doesn't provide.
    - class3shock 2y ago
      Not many that I can think of but it would make sense if she were starting with 16' or 24' length of tube as then you would really want to measure the whole length and then mark where your cut or cuts would be as you may already be at the edge of the tolerance. For instance, if you have a 15'11.125" long tube and you need to make two 8' tubes with a tolerance of +/- 1/2 then you need to be dead on with the cut, even though the tolerance is big (which you'd expect it to be on a 8' tube).
martin293 2y ago
> One man, watching me while I cut 8-foot lengths of tubing for him, told me that I could simply hook my tape measure over the saw blade and subtract ⅛-inch to find the correct length. Piqued after I explained why his method wouldn’t work for a precise measurement, he responded by quizzing me on something I wasn’t likely to know: the purpose of the black diamonds on my tape measure. Perhaps I'm picturing the situation wrong, but why wouldn't it work on the precision levels of a tape measure?
- NegativeLatency 2y ago
  I don’t know specifically, but If your saw has a stop or something that’s going to be better than repeated tape measure measurements. Also assumes that the saw blade is actually 1/8 of an inch.
  - zahlman 2y ago
    Not the blade itself, but the total width of the material that will be removed as it cuts (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saw#Kerf https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saw#Kerf).
- iamtheworstdev 2y ago
  she may be implying a lack of precision from the floating tip on a well used/worn measuring tape. i wouldn't rely on that for anything i considered "precise". framing a house? sure.
  - maples37 2y ago
    Fun fact: the floating tip on a measuring tape is loose by design. It's to account for the width of the tip itself when you're measuring by pushing the tip into a corner, versus measuring by hooking the tip around the edge of your material. So a "loose" tip on a measuring tape is actually more accurate than a fixed rigid tip that does not move. (though I don't think I've ever seen a tape measure that is lacking this feature) https://asktooltalk.com/questions/faq/tools/tape_measures/tape_tip.php https://asktooltalk.com/questions/faq/tools/tape_measures/ta...
deskr 2y ago
> The man in the audience at the academic conference who wants to lecture rather than ask a question... To be honest here, she started the lecture. He offered advice she lectured him and "explained why his method wouldn’t work". There was no need for that lecture/explanation. Had she been a man she'd be challenged in the same way with that response. The right non-provocative response would have been "I can't use the measuring tape since that's only precise to X ...". He felt put down and he'd have done exactly same had she been a man.
shrubble 2y ago
Her welds look a little sloppy, with too much material on them, to be honest.
brodo 2y ago
Should this even be discussed here? It’s not tech-related, and the "all professions need to be at least 50% female“ argument always leads to the same, emotional discussions.
- LitFan 2y ago
  Seeing a parallel to another field with more blatant examples of the types of discrimination keeping women out of tech-related jobs is helpful. And more discussion around these issues is more likely to lead to positive outcomes than ignoring them.
  - rootusrootus 2y ago
    > And more discussion around these issues is more likely to lead to positive outcomes than ignoring them. Sometimes I wonder. The left spends a lot of time pointing out that the right is bigoted, and the right just shrugs, because so what? These two groups disagree on whether there is a problem.
- SoftTalker 2y ago
  It's not computing related, but welding is (or can be) quite a technical field, requiring years of education and experience, particulary welding exotic materials or in critical applications such as nuclear reactors. It's not all muffler shop work.
- mmooss 2y ago
  > "all professions need to be at least 50% female“ I think you are the only one who said that?
- JasserInicide 2y ago
  Some of us like the off-beat articles. Can only take so many "literal who tech blogger tells me why how I'm doing things is wrong" posts
- bitcharmer 2y ago
  [flagged]
deskr 2y ago
The talk/banter between two men can be very harsh, without any malice intended.
- rootusrootus 2y ago
  As with most things in life, as long as both are consenting adults, great.
verisimi 2y ago
> Another man commented on my appearance, comparing me to my co-worker: “You’re better looking than the guy I talked to before.” Such harassment remains common for tradeswomen Is this really harassment? It sounds kinda humorous or complimentary. Author seems to have no sense of humour.
- LitFan 2y ago
  Harass: to disturb or irritate by persistent acts While one person saying this once is not necessarily harassment, the frame of reference has to be from the context of the recipient. Consider how often the author has to hear this or similar comments from customers as a result of being a woman working in a trade.
deleted 2y ago
[deleted]
blobbers 2y ago
Is it just me or do others not care if the welder is a man or a woman. I just want my welds to hold. If she struggles when they ask her to do a 6mm and 8mm weld, guess what, then she shouldn’t get the job. If she does it properly, maybe she should. Complaining about being tired and having to squat to lift things? It’s the job. And having someone tell you your hands are dirty is now harassment? Maybe customer didn’t want a super dirty invoice. Guess what librarians deal with homeless creepers all the time. Welders are not uniquely harassed. People really ought to have a poll on whether this whole woke equal nature of things matters. In WW2, we had plenty of Rosie the Riveter working. Now less so. Times change, jobs change. I just want my welds not to break.
motohagiography 2y ago
it reads a bit like this prof learned welding to diminish the dignity of the men who do it for a living. It reminds me of that old Pulp lyric, "and when roaches climb the walls, you can call your dad and stop it all." where in this case it's academic credentials that will forever take her out of the working class. I can think of a few instances where I would have looked past women in trade shops and have made a concerted effort not to, but it was because the value in skilled trades work is more than the transaction. there's a significant and physical trust component involved and also an implied relationship with aspects of reciprocity that come with the work. part of that is assessing whether the person you are dealing with can signal the values to facilitate that trust. tropes about sexism don't capture that nuance. we can talk about sexism from men all day, but for men who are contenders for finding wives and having kids, when young working class women have "a man whose boss is another woman" in the top of their selection criteria, you will see guys lining up to welcome women into trades. until then, the stated reasons for why women don't feel welcome in them will seem inconsistent, evasive, and won't bear much scrutiny. what the criticisms and entire worldview of the prof seem to lack is an understanding of human desire. great that she learned a useful skill. not great that she's coopting it to drive a narrative from her institutional background at the expense of men for whom this is their actual livelihood.
ggm 2y ago
Ex Mil will mansplain anything to anyone. It's coded in behaviour. Pretty sure she got some sexism but also, pretty sure some was receiver-sender impedence mismatch and also nongendered "I do this because it's my culture" behaviour. I agree some of this is class warfare not gender warfare. Liked the article. Odd to say that of a sad observation of life's iniquities, but it's a good article I think.
- bitcharmer 2y ago
  It's popular and somewhat fashionable these days to be offended at anything, hate men or be racist towards white people. I think she's just trying to tick all the boxes.
  - ggm 2y ago
    I don't agree at all. The australian experience for women in field work fly-in-fly-out mining is that there is semi constant harrassment from low level nudes in the locker rooms. to invasive approaches and even door busting in the dorms. It's a massive problem. Writing this down to fashion misunderstands the problem. Sorry, but I think you're just wrong.
    - bitcharmer 2y ago
      [flagged]
anon291 2y ago
A professor my wife had in her feminist studies class confided in my wife that she enjoyed having her in class (my wife leans conservative), because she (the professor) had gotten tired of the bubble. Her professor was raised lower-middle class and spent many years in trucking before entering academia, and was just tired of the constant echo chamber that academia has become. This woman seems to have done the opposite. Good for her. For me personally, despite being in tech in a well paying job, at my church and at various volunteer groups I'm part of, I am exposed to people of all backgrounds. And of course, growing up middle class and seeing how my friends and family behaved, I feel way more comfortable among what I consider 'normal' people. It's like two different worlds at work versus in person. Luckily, I'm now at a chipmaker where people seem more level-headed. Something about having to interact with physical constraints makes people more moderate I think. The SW startup world is so far off the rails, I found it difficult to relate.
foxglacier 2y ago
What these stories always miss is a control. Yea, people are judging her as being incompetent but they'll do that to anyone who seems incompetent. Maybe being a woman was part of it, or maybe having the subtle mannerisms and body language of a writing professor was part of it. They can't verbalize the "looks out of place" bit so they'll just latch onto the "looks like a woman" instead. I've worked with tradesmen and despite being a man, received similar treatment. I just didn't look competent. For example, I was about to move a truck to somewhere else on site and somebody offered to do it for me because it was hard to drive. In another case, somebody was surprised that I could weld. Another guy who understood put it as "you aren't as green as you are cabbage-looking". That legs turn to jelly thing is internal. Some people are just less confident than others. Some can fake or really feel confidence even when they're inexperienced while some are the opposite. How can a professor not understand this when they surely all go through similar situations teaching a new class where the students are judging them on their competence?
- rootusrootus 2y ago
  > people are judging her as being incompetent She is in good company. Everyone thinks most other people are incompetent. Find the best welder you can, film them doing their thing, post it on the Internet. Watch the comments flood in with scathing criticism for how they're doing it wrong. It's like a sport now.
  - foxglacier 2y ago
    Sure but it seems like they were particularly judgmental to her compared to her coworkers.
class3shock 2y ago
Jives with all the trades in general. Sometimes you have people being insulting who are genuinely trying to have fun with you, other times it's just people using that as a cover to be assholes. Often you are expected to just take brutal conditions with a smile even though they aren't safe and even though everyone knows you should say no, but no one wants to be "that guy". Customers can be condescending and mean, often for no real reason other than that's who they are and the trades in general put up with that kind of person because they don't have the draw of higher end gigs.
- Whoppertime 2y ago
  It goes back to how society deals with outliers In Japan I commonly hear "The nail that sticks out gets hammered down". In America I commonly hear "The squeaky wheel gets the grease" I suspect both are true depending on the circumstances
  - class3shock 2y ago
    Out of curiosity are the trades in Japan a higher end gig? Or similar to the US? In the US alot of trade jobs are low end and the people in them don't exactly take pride in their work whereas I've always had the impression Japanese folks have more of a focus on doing a craft, whatever it may be, well.
edwbuck 2y ago
All that I can add of value is summed up in the phrase "Sweet hood, you go girl!" Personally, there are many jobs that people just don't understand because they just don't interact with them. Welding is one example, but there are many. My Uncle died with a well deserved lifestyle after doing "large pipe" welding. The definition of large, in this case, was pipe you could theoretically drive a car through. Just to weld the pipe together from plate steel, one would have to weld together a rig to hold the plate, as well as a roller press to bend the plate correctly. People would be astounded that I, a software developer, would hold a welder in such high esteem, but while I might be (my own, probably faulty estimate) in the top 10,000 he was in the top 100 (again my own, probably faulty estimate). I've seen him walk into a job that took three "lesser" welder (mind you, these are family members, so please don't call them out as such) six hours and complete it in 20 minutes. I'm what one might call a 10x programmer. That said, he was at least a 100x welder. Alas, he died due to a lung full of chromium, which is a real risk when welding the exotic metals that generally the top welders are asked to work. I miss him dearly, and Lon (Lonnie) if you can read this from heaven, you're still the best damned welder I've ever seen, and a true master of your craft. You inspire me to do better than I do. I only hope to become as good in my field as you are in yours.
- glitchc 2y ago
  I am happy to see you proud of your uncle, and am very sorry for your loss. You aptly described why the trades are in decline across the country: > Alas, he died due to a lung full of chromium, which is a real risk when welding the exotic metals that generally the top welders are asked to work. This is why. There's no appetite to do this kind of work. People are too comfortable.
  - eszed 2y ago
    > There's no appetite to do this kind of work. People are too comfortable. I really hate implication of this statement. (You may not have meant exactly this, but I've heard it said with a straight face by others.) Syllogized: People don't want to do [unpleasant or dangerous job], therefore let's make the rest of life worse so they will. I can acknowledge the logic to that position, but there is also a logic to let's make [job] less dangerous, more bearable, and / or better compensated. (To be clear: ensuring safety is broadly speaking the realm of government to enforce. Improving pay and working conditions is the responsibility of employers. Unions can affect both, but require the support of the state to be viable.) I don't understand why anyone would choose the option which increases human misery. In what moral system is that the right thing to do?
whartung 2y ago
If anyone is looking to get in on the ground floor of a welding career, the Navy and their contractors have stood up buildsubmarines.com. Apparently it's a large effort to recruit 100,000(!!) trades people, of all sorts, for a very large effort to build a lot of submarines. And one thing they certainly need is welders. And they're training. The opening video even has a female welder in it. It's more of a grand assembly endeavor than a grand engineering endeavor (like the Apollo program was), but I know my time in the defense industry (supporting naval weapon systems: Standard Missile, Phalanx, RAM, etc.) was an interesting time. I've built enough software systems from seed that grew, flourished, and died with a simple `rm` command to know it can be interesting to point at a big metal hole in the water and say "I helped build that".
bastloing 2y ago
Great! I feel good watching women and men doing all the jobs and sports they can do, regardless of gender.
paulcole 2y ago
> I’ve daydreamed about learning a trade – something that required both my mind and my hands. Respect to her for actually doing it unlike every other email-job-holder who just revels in telling other people to learn a trade.
stonesthrowaway 2y ago
Only 5.3%? That's a lot more than I expected. > 'comparing me to my co-worker: “You’re better looking than the guy I talked to before.”' That's just harmless workplace banter. Why not just joke back? If that's worst example of 'sexism' she experienced, then the headline should read: "Welding profession is the least sexist profession in the world". Far less sexist than nursing or academia... > Although I have a good gig as a full professor at Iowa State University, I’ve daydreamed about learning a trade – something that required both my mind and my hands. I'm skeptical. I think you daydreamed about writing an article about workplace sexism and welding was just a means to that end.
tomcam 2y ago
> I laid down the welds and put my hood up and the guy goes, ‘Well, goddamn, bitch can weld,’ and I was like, ‘Oh my god, thank god.’” The article refers to various forms of sexism and harassment, including the passage above. I’m absolutely not denying that these things happen in the workplace. That would be insane. But it is also true that the exact exchange above could completely have happened between two guys. Anyone who knows tradesmen understands that there’s a fair amount of good natured hassling of coworkers that has nothing to do with sexism. A lot of this work is dangerous and has to happen quickly and on schedule. You’re not really given serious responsibilities until you can demonstrate you’re not going to get someone crushed under a heavy weight or burned. It might be that she is misinterpreting some of this, but I must concede that she’s kind of a badass because she completed all three years of training and actually does work as a welder.

> I’m resentful of these silent evaluations, particularly when I’m learning something new and trying to keep all my fingers. I don't think this is unique to Women at all. There's a tendency in these authors to perceive Men's interactions in the workplace as "easy" or "natural" or even desired for some reason. They typically aren't. > Stoicism is a workaround to credibility. It also comes with a high price. Those who pay it typically do not last. Ironically they often refuse to recognize the source of their suffering. If the job is hard, modify the tools to make it easier, your class of use just hasn't been typically considered but it wouldn't be impossible to create. > The pontificating metal-shop customer should be, too. It's everywhere. The number of times my credibility has been assumed based upon my appearance is huge. Customers often have to choose between two Men if a Women isn't working, and the same tropes apply there as well. It all seems like the right idea for the wrong reasons and so the interpretation is heavily compromised by it.

ksenzee 2y ago
[flagged]
bsder 2y ago
Yeah, my overall reaction was kinda "Welcome to being a dude. You get shit on mercilessly until you prove otherwise. You get told to shut the fuck up and knock it out even if you're tired after 4 hours. You have to look out for yourself because nobody else is going to. God help you if you're a tiny or effeminate guy. etc." Blue collar work sucks ass. You generally only do it because you don't have any better options.
- Seattle3503 2y ago
  Physical demands aside, must it be that way culturaly?

gaze 2y ago

I just bought a gas lens set for my welder and it included cups called the BBW and the FUPA. When I was taking MIG classes, they had a jar of anti-spatter gel called cooter snot tip dip. Can’t imagine why women are so rare in the profession… I’ve been a tourist in a number of different trades, and welding beats them all for hostility and resistance to safety practices. You get called a pussy for wearing a mask, but of course the manganese fumes from welding steel will give you brain damage. I’ve been advised to run cutoff wheels far above their rated RPM, which risks explosion. It’s sad because welding might as well some combination of knitting and calligraphy but with metal. It’s great.

2OEH8eoCRo0 2y ago
[flagged]
kleton 2y ago
Cooter is a Black dialectal term for a turtle originating from the Mandinka language, and you can see a turtle on the logo of that product.
- AceJohnny2 2y ago
  that's called "plausible deniability"
  - WorkerBee28474 2y ago
    Deniability for accurate and true reasons is just a subset of plausible deniability
- gaze 2y ago
  I’m glad someone is here to argue on behalf of the cooter snot company.
- evilduck 2y ago
  Are turtles also known for their snot, in which tips are frequently dipped?

naming_the_user 2y ago

What comes across from the article to me is the class barrier more than the gender one - basically it's a posh person finding out what the "real world" looks like. Shop talk and banter are fairly universal. Any difference is going to be a target. Thin bloke who doesn't look strong enough? Ginger hair? Tall guy, short guy? Weird tattoo, etc. Definitely the one black guy or the one white guy is going to get shit. But is it malicious? Almost certainly not. The other thing, which in my experience is relatively common worldwide, is that working class communities are more accepting of male-female dynamics. In academia and in highbrow society the tendency is to basically sanitise every social interaction. When you're in an environment where that isn't happening then you can't suddenly ignore it any more.

scotty79 2y ago
> Any difference is going to be a target. Those are primary school rules. Seeing adults living like that is shocking.
- rootusrootus 2y ago
  Primary schoolers are the sweetest people in the world. It is middle schoolers that express adult emotions with no filter. Fortunately the filter does get more effective with practice, but it is always worth remembering that at their core, most people are not fundamentally different than they were in middle school.
- verisimi 2y ago
  Seeing adults pretending not to notice differences is also shocking, funny too.
  - scotty79 2y ago
    I'm sure they see the differences, just decide to evaluate them as irrelevant. Which is their right as adults.
Rendello 2y ago
It was interesting for me going from interacting with wealthy, educated developers, to working in a very physical, low-paying blue-collar job. It seemed like living in two different worlds almost. > working class communities are more accepting of male-female dynamics I'm curious to what you mean by this

readthenotes1 2y ago

[flagged]

aaron695 2y ago

If you want to look at hidden GDP women and access to power tools is probably a big one. Lighter batteries and brushless and mass production allowing for a quick jump in and companies like Ryobi's making tools look good (but not cliched pink) and how-to's on TikTok have changed the landscape. We have gone from upkeep at home to asset building. Some of this will go to careers, but it's not that simple. HN isn't mature enough to discuss this but men die in dirty jobs, no one really cares. For every one who dies many are hurt and for the many injuries there are many many near misses. A near miss is often about reaction times and strength. These 1% issues are the problem. You are 3 hours from anywhere and stuck in mud by yourself and the tool kit is missing. So you can get the 5.3% up, but it can't be 50%

tstrimple 2y ago
> A near miss is often about reaction times and strength. Funny, I thought it was about safety procedures and culture. Leaving accident avoidance up to reflexes is an incredibly poor way to build anything safely right?

deleted 2y ago

[deleted]

christophilus 2y ago

I once met a welder who was told upon entering the field, “You’re going to meet a lot of serial killers in this line of work.” He thought his boss was just messing with him, but it turned out to be prophetic. He met something like 5 convicted serial killers in 20 years as a welder. Welding is solitary work that is itinerant. Some of the stories that guy told me would turn your stomach. Anyway— totally off topic, but I thought it was interesting.

SoftTalker 2y ago
I don't know about serial killers, normally they are in prison if known. But felons, yes definitely. A criminal record is not disqualifying in most trades and unions.
- 1123581321 2y ago
  Meaning was probably that the coworkers were later discovered and convicted of multiple murders, not working with felon status. :)
brodouevencode 2y ago
My experience w/ metal workers of all types holds true to this. I think it's the fumes.
- eYrKEC2 2y ago
  That theory does make sense. Half of serial killers have had traumatic brain injuries -- this would just be more of the same.
- MisterTea 2y ago
  Seconded. Hiring Machinists at work we went through a few ex cons and wound up hiring one for a few years which turned out to be a nightmare. Now we have a hippy in a band who makes inappropriate comments. You cant win.
  - 2y ago

Dazzler5648 2y ago

Are there actually any women in this conversation? I find many of the comments at YC to be obnoxiously male dominant and condescending, this comment section included. It's been frustrating me for quite a while now. Would guess only 5.3% of YC readers are female. And would say, it's posh, not "real world," and it's not comfortable even though I'm a very strong woman - and a welder.

righthand 2y ago
[flagged]
rickmortythrow 2y ago
> Are there actually any women in this conversation? I think the average demographic here is the standard software engineering team in the US, unfortunately. I hope I'm wrong. There are some high profile HN'ers that are women (e.g. DoreenMichele comes to mind). Fun fact: in eastern Europe (and Russia too?) the gender dynamics of software engineering are much more gender equal compared to the US/EU. Probably other STEM disciplines as well. I'm not sure about welding though. I'm getting a bit side tracked with my thoughts, it's just that I think it ties into bigger issues. I remember once being in a feminism class, as the only male, making a case for getting women into stem and it fell on deaf ears. I think that's also in part because women (and men for that matter) that take feminism classes tend to skew liberal artsy. I just happen to have a liberal artsy side and a STEM side (and a cool feminism teacher that was patient enough for all my naive questions so I felt emotionally safe to take her class). I wish there were more women in the conversation but unfortunately there aren't. The last company I worked for happened to have an equal 50/50 gender split. That was cool. It confirmed what I thought about men and women: ignore gender and focus on personality and their thoughts. I've often been in situations where any form of stereotypes have been thrown out of the window and my last employer was one of them. It's beautiful. Unfortunately, HN seems to be too big for that. The culture needs to shift and I don't have much of a clue how. I think in part it's with how women versus men are socialized here. Boys that are socially excluded tend to go towards computers. Girls don't really seem to be socially excluded that often compared to boys? Just brainstorming, I might be totally off. > Are there actually any women in this conversation? I find many of the comments at YC to be obnoxiously male dominant and condescending, this comment section included. It's been frustrating me for quite a while now. I'm curious how you find them frustrating. When I was reading them, I wasn't quite sure what to think about it. By the way, I've used a throwaway because of my submission to HN, not because of this comment. I thought I was on my pseudonym account. I have autism (diagnosed in my mid thirties) and I think many people here are on the spectrum, which is what my submission is about.

justsomehnguy 2y ago

> Like other tradeswomen, I’ve learned to work around unwanted comments, including uninvited conversations with men bent on signaling their expertise. It's obvious why an uninvited conversations are perceived as a sexism. But anyone with the experience in almost anything but particularly in any trade would tell you what men do receive uninvited conversations with men bent on signaling their expertise all the goddamn time. Sure, seeing 'a woman out of place' triggers some of them to do it when they wouldn't do it with a man in the same place, because they could get told to shove their oh-so-important opinion to the place where sun is not shining, but the source of this behaviour is not to be a sexist asshole but just being an asshole. As the other comment rightfully notes, any difference is going to be a target.

globular-toast 2y ago
I've had men try to teach me stuff a bunch of times. I listen, learn, and thank them.
- themaninthedark 2y ago
  Yeah, same here. Even if I know what I am doing, sometime I learn something new or a new way to approach something. Sometimes not. But then hey, free advice is worth what you paid for it.
  - rootusrootus 2y ago
    > free advice is worth what you paid for it. Occasionally. Many times it is worth considerably less. Time is valuable.
arkh 2y ago
> receive uninvited conversations with men bent on signaling their expertise all the goddamn time My father was a mechanic. He learnt fast to stop trying to correct know-it-alls about cars. "Let 'em do stupid shit, it gives us work to bill".
deskr 2y ago

burnt-resistor 2y ago

Cool. I keep wondering if Kurtis from Cutting Edge Engineering will eventually borrow the camera and have Karen do some gouging, metal deposition, and/or MIG welding on stuff to show how fun it is. Also, the combination of liquid nitrogen and flame for interference fit parts is pretty cool too.

rurban 2y ago

Women would be much better welders than men, because they don't wear their testicle outside close to the welding area, avoiding the most common welders desease, testicular cancer. In the European eastern block countries there are much more female welders. Welders don't really like their plastic testicles.

mgarfias 2y ago

The photos of the welds made me think she needs to goto welding school. Ugh. I’m a total hack and can do better.

sambapa 2y ago
Yeah, those TIG welds are something else, verging on trolling
- blitzar 2y ago
  I went looking for it and got distracted by the faux wood grain paint on the aluminium frame.
deleted 2y ago
[deleted]
jandrese 2y ago
It is annoying to be generally in support of diversity but then you get a case comes where someone is claiming discrimination and it turns out they just suck at their job. This sort of thing is just ammunition for the "dumb, barefoot, pregnant, and in the kitchen" crowd.
martin293 2y ago
I know barely anything about welding, could you explain what a good weld would look like?
- _whiteCaps_ 2y ago
  Some examples of a good weld: https://s3.amazonaws.com/uploads.bmxmuseum.com/user-images/236303/11986582_1065577020143426_5195198252051622409_n6138184f1a.jpg https://s3.amazonaws.com/uploads.bmxmuseum.com/user-images/2... https://s3.amazonaws.com/uploads.bmxmuseum.com/user-images/236303/90-degree-tubular-mig-welding613818ce62.jpg https://s3.amazonaws.com/uploads.bmxmuseum.com/user-images/2... Steady hands and a good rhythm are helpful. I won the top welding student award at my high school. The competition wasn't great. Mostly, I just didn't smoke a ton of pot right before class.

skinkestek 2y ago

> “You’re better looking than the guy I talked to before.” Such harassment remains common for tradeswomen If people think this is harassment, no wonder people experience a lot of harassment. Unless there was more to it the correct answer is along the lines of "yes thankfully" and then a laugh. I'd recommend a good look in the mirror when looking for the problem in such situations. Same goes for the thing about trying to discreetly notifying that someone has dirty hands: Yes, I don't know what is up with Americans and demanding everyone has clean hands at all times, but as long as that is a thing this probably is meant as a favor. Maybe clumsily, but still. More generally the saying: "when you hear hooves, think horses, not zebras" comes to mind: If you expect things to be meant funny or helpful (and give people some slack) maybe life becomes a lot less stressful than if everything has to be seen through a lens of gender dynamics. And if one is known as a reasonable person, I guess people will also take your side if you have to be loud and clear about something, e.g. if it turns out someone wasn't just clumsily trying to be nice or funny.

blitzar 2y ago
I still get flashes of the traumatic day when I was in the kitchen area at work making myself a cup of tea and one of the female employees came in and said "You are a strong and tall man, can you get that heavy box from the top shelf for me".
- kazinator 2y ago
  I had that happen numerous times in supermarkets.
  - blitzar 2y ago
    The supermarket encounters are most often dirty old women who are still stuck in the past, or have gotten away with it for so long they just don't know any better.
    - pessimizer 2y ago
      It's not sexual harassment, it's flattery to get you to do a favor for them. They would never sleep with you. It's also extremely normal and anodyne. Why do men think sexism is symmetrical? The reason sexual overtures from men are a problem is because they are usually serious and they are statistically threatening, because men often hurt women who don't respond to them in a way they deem appropriate. You would never fear this woman.

graycat 2y ago

Welding Example: Brother and I bought and old Chevy. Front end parts so badly worn that could turn steering wheel about 20 degrees before the wheels moved! Used bumper jacks to raise the front end and rest it on concrete blocks. Took out everything from the steering wheel to the front wheel. The springs were dangerous -- kaBOOM! Took the worn parts to a Chevy parts department -- they enjoyed helping a teenager do it yourself, first time. Installed the new parts: Had no spring compressor so used two bumper jacks; had them supporting the car while also using the jacks on the lower A-frames to compress the springs. kaBOOM! as one of the jacks slipped, the spring expanded, the lower A-frame rotated ~180 degrees and hit near the center of the frame (but not me!). Drove the car to our Buick dealer (family car was a Buick) to have the front end aligned. Mechanic was surprised and pleased to see the work done -- all nice clean parts correctly installed! But he said he couldn't do the alignment because he needed a bending bar for the king pin (vertical heavy iron bar connecting the outer ends of the lower and upper A-frames) so sent me to the shop of a friend. The friend said "Bet you got these nuts too tight ... no you didn't. How'd you know to do that?" Had read a maintenance manual at the city library. He said "We get those manuals ..."! Shocks were part of the upper A-frame pivots and poor. At a parts shop, got two piston shocks that looked about right, were officially for some Mercury car, and drove to a muffler shop for the needed welding. The shop was pleased to help a do it yourself teenager and with a challenge well outside their usual welding. So, with some fabrication and welding, they got each shock attached to the frame and the front side of the lower A-frame. Worked great for years! Lesson connected with the OP: People can like helping a teenager do it yourself, alone, a first time, with too little or nothing in information and tools and facing some danger. The muffler shop liked the challenge of doing the one-off, first-time, innovative fabrication and welding! Such a teenager can get a good welcome and respect.

mmooss 2y ago
The welcome they get may depend on their race and gender.

cynicalsecurity 2y ago

Why would you want more women to become welders? What's your motivation?

avhon1 2y ago
So that there can be more welders?
DFHippie 2y ago
I'm not the author, but there are a lot of motivations one could have. The less people are constrained by stereotypes and hostility, the more they can do what they want to do, the more likely they are to be able to make a living, the less they will be beset with self-doubt, the less they will be dominated and abused by others who have more opportunities. It's about freedom. Why shouldn't women be free to be welders if they want to be? The more women are welders, the weaker the social constraints become against women being welders; or things like welders, because the stereotypes we're talking about aren't generally so narrow. Women aren't a special case. Lots of people are hemmed in by stereotypes and biases. Why shouldn't they be free? Well, people who get the opportunities others are fenced out of do benefit from the biases, but that's not a noble motivation.

cynicalsecurity 2y ago

> You’re better looking than the guy I talked to before.” Such harassment remains common for tradeswomen... This is not harassment.

alwa 2y ago
Why should somebody’s attractiveness or looks be part of a “I need stuff welded” conversation at all?
- mhb 2y ago
  Because people interact? Offensiveness is not "harassment".
- Veen 2y ago
  Because we are evolved, embodied beings interacting with other embodied beings. We are not disembodied atomistic work units compelled to follow social norms invented by maladjusted corporate "ethicists".
- ThrowawayTestr 2y ago
  It's a joke. Jokes are a common feature of conversation.

mhb 2y ago

OK, I'll ask. What's wrong with using a tape measure the way the guy suggested to measure a length of pipe?

class3shock 2y ago
Best guess is the tolerance required for the pipe length was tighter than you can reliably get going off of a tape measure foot (which are often loose, worn, bent, etc. and not a reliable starting/zero point for precision measurement).
- mhb 2y ago
  OK thanks. I wonder if there are a lot of cases in which cutting and welding an 8 foot pipe requires the accuracy that that method doesn't provide.
  - class3shock 2y ago
    Not many that I can think of but it would make sense if she were starting with 16' or 24' length of tube as then you would really want to measure the whole length and then mark where your cut or cuts would be as you may already be at the edge of the tolerance. For instance, if you have a 15'11.125" long tube and you need to make two 8' tubes with a tolerance of +/- 1/2 then you need to be dead on with the cut, even though the tolerance is big (which you'd expect it to be on a 8' tube).

martin293 2y ago

> One man, watching me while I cut 8-foot lengths of tubing for him, told me that I could simply hook my tape measure over the saw blade and subtract ⅛-inch to find the correct length. Piqued after I explained why his method wouldn’t work for a precise measurement, he responded by quizzing me on something I wasn’t likely to know: the purpose of the black diamonds on my tape measure. Perhaps I'm picturing the situation wrong, but why wouldn't it work on the precision levels of a tape measure?

NegativeLatency 2y ago
I don’t know specifically, but If your saw has a stop or something that’s going to be better than repeated tape measure measurements. Also assumes that the saw blade is actually 1/8 of an inch.
- zahlman 2y ago
  Not the blade itself, but the total width of the material that will be removed as it cuts (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saw#Kerf https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saw#Kerf).
iamtheworstdev 2y ago
she may be implying a lack of precision from the floating tip on a well used/worn measuring tape. i wouldn't rely on that for anything i considered "precise". framing a house? sure.
- maples37 2y ago
  Fun fact: the floating tip on a measuring tape is loose by design. It's to account for the width of the tip itself when you're measuring by pushing the tip into a corner, versus measuring by hooking the tip around the edge of your material. So a "loose" tip on a measuring tape is actually more accurate than a fixed rigid tip that does not move. (though I don't think I've ever seen a tape measure that is lacking this feature) https://asktooltalk.com/questions/faq/tools/tape_measures/tape_tip.php https://asktooltalk.com/questions/faq/tools/tape_measures/ta...

deskr 2y ago

> The man in the audience at the academic conference who wants to lecture rather than ask a question... To be honest here, she started the lecture. He offered advice she lectured him and "explained why his method wouldn’t work". There was no need for that lecture/explanation. Had she been a man she'd be challenged in the same way with that response. The right non-provocative response would have been "I can't use the measuring tape since that's only precise to X ...". He felt put down and he'd have done exactly same had she been a man.

shrubble 2y ago

Her welds look a little sloppy, with too much material on them, to be honest.

brodo 2y ago

Should this even be discussed here? It’s not tech-related, and the "all professions need to be at least 50% female“ argument always leads to the same, emotional discussions.

LitFan 2y ago
Seeing a parallel to another field with more blatant examples of the types of discrimination keeping women out of tech-related jobs is helpful. And more discussion around these issues is more likely to lead to positive outcomes than ignoring them.
- rootusrootus 2y ago
  > And more discussion around these issues is more likely to lead to positive outcomes than ignoring them. Sometimes I wonder. The left spends a lot of time pointing out that the right is bigoted, and the right just shrugs, because so what? These two groups disagree on whether there is a problem.
SoftTalker 2y ago
It's not computing related, but welding is (or can be) quite a technical field, requiring years of education and experience, particulary welding exotic materials or in critical applications such as nuclear reactors. It's not all muffler shop work.
mmooss 2y ago
> "all professions need to be at least 50% female“ I think you are the only one who said that?
JasserInicide 2y ago
Some of us like the off-beat articles. Can only take so many "literal who tech blogger tells me why how I'm doing things is wrong" posts
bitcharmer 2y ago
[flagged]

deskr 2y ago

The talk/banter between two men can be very harsh, without any malice intended.

rootusrootus 2y ago
As with most things in life, as long as both are consenting adults, great.

verisimi 2y ago

> Another man commented on my appearance, comparing me to my co-worker: “You’re better looking than the guy I talked to before.” Such harassment remains common for tradeswomen Is this really harassment? It sounds kinda humorous or complimentary. Author seems to have no sense of humour.

LitFan 2y ago
Harass: to disturb or irritate by persistent acts While one person saying this once is not necessarily harassment, the frame of reference has to be from the context of the recipient. Consider how often the author has to hear this or similar comments from customers as a result of being a woman working in a trade.

deleted 2y ago

[deleted]

blobbers 2y ago

Is it just me or do others not care if the welder is a man or a woman. I just want my welds to hold. If she struggles when they ask her to do a 6mm and 8mm weld, guess what, then she shouldn’t get the job. If she does it properly, maybe she should. Complaining about being tired and having to squat to lift things? It’s the job. And having someone tell you your hands are dirty is now harassment? Maybe customer didn’t want a super dirty invoice. Guess what librarians deal with homeless creepers all the time. Welders are not uniquely harassed. People really ought to have a poll on whether this whole woke equal nature of things matters. In WW2, we had plenty of Rosie the Riveter working. Now less so. Times change, jobs change. I just want my welds not to break.

motohagiography 2y ago

it reads a bit like this prof learned welding to diminish the dignity of the men who do it for a living. It reminds me of that old Pulp lyric, "and when roaches climb the walls, you can call your dad and stop it all." where in this case it's academic credentials that will forever take her out of the working class. I can think of a few instances where I would have looked past women in trade shops and have made a concerted effort not to, but it was because the value in skilled trades work is more than the transaction. there's a significant and physical trust component involved and also an implied relationship with aspects of reciprocity that come with the work. part of that is assessing whether the person you are dealing with can signal the values to facilitate that trust. tropes about sexism don't capture that nuance. we can talk about sexism from men all day, but for men who are contenders for finding wives and having kids, when young working class women have "a man whose boss is another woman" in the top of their selection criteria, you will see guys lining up to welcome women into trades. until then, the stated reasons for why women don't feel welcome in them will seem inconsistent, evasive, and won't bear much scrutiny. what the criticisms and entire worldview of the prof seem to lack is an understanding of human desire. great that she learned a useful skill. not great that she's coopting it to drive a narrative from her institutional background at the expense of men for whom this is their actual livelihood.

ggm 2y ago

Ex Mil will mansplain anything to anyone. It's coded in behaviour. Pretty sure she got some sexism but also, pretty sure some was receiver-sender impedence mismatch and also nongendered "I do this because it's my culture" behaviour. I agree some of this is class warfare not gender warfare. Liked the article. Odd to say that of a sad observation of life's iniquities, but it's a good article I think.

bitcharmer 2y ago
It's popular and somewhat fashionable these days to be offended at anything, hate men or be racist towards white people. I think she's just trying to tick all the boxes.
- ggm 2y ago
  I don't agree at all. The australian experience for women in field work fly-in-fly-out mining is that there is semi constant harrassment from low level nudes in the locker rooms. to invasive approaches and even door busting in the dorms. It's a massive problem. Writing this down to fashion misunderstands the problem. Sorry, but I think you're just wrong.
  - bitcharmer 2y ago
    [flagged]

anon291 2y ago

A professor my wife had in her feminist studies class confided in my wife that she enjoyed having her in class (my wife leans conservative), because she (the professor) had gotten tired of the bubble. Her professor was raised lower-middle class and spent many years in trucking before entering academia, and was just tired of the constant echo chamber that academia has become. This woman seems to have done the opposite. Good for her. For me personally, despite being in tech in a well paying job, at my church and at various volunteer groups I'm part of, I am exposed to people of all backgrounds. And of course, growing up middle class and seeing how my friends and family behaved, I feel way more comfortable among what I consider 'normal' people. It's like two different worlds at work versus in person. Luckily, I'm now at a chipmaker where people seem more level-headed. Something about having to interact with physical constraints makes people more moderate I think. The SW startup world is so far off the rails, I found it difficult to relate.

foxglacier 2y ago

What these stories always miss is a control. Yea, people are judging her as being incompetent but they'll do that to anyone who seems incompetent. Maybe being a woman was part of it, or maybe having the subtle mannerisms and body language of a writing professor was part of it. They can't verbalize the "looks out of place" bit so they'll just latch onto the "looks like a woman" instead. I've worked with tradesmen and despite being a man, received similar treatment. I just didn't look competent. For example, I was about to move a truck to somewhere else on site and somebody offered to do it for me because it was hard to drive. In another case, somebody was surprised that I could weld. Another guy who understood put it as "you aren't as green as you are cabbage-looking". That legs turn to jelly thing is internal. Some people are just less confident than others. Some can fake or really feel confidence even when they're inexperienced while some are the opposite. How can a professor not understand this when they surely all go through similar situations teaching a new class where the students are judging them on their competence?

rootusrootus 2y ago
> people are judging her as being incompetent She is in good company. Everyone thinks most other people are incompetent. Find the best welder you can, film them doing their thing, post it on the Internet. Watch the comments flood in with scathing criticism for how they're doing it wrong. It's like a sport now.
- foxglacier 2y ago
  Sure but it seems like they were particularly judgmental to her compared to her coworkers.

class3shock 2y ago

Jives with all the trades in general. Sometimes you have people being insulting who are genuinely trying to have fun with you, other times it's just people using that as a cover to be assholes. Often you are expected to just take brutal conditions with a smile even though they aren't safe and even though everyone knows you should say no, but no one wants to be "that guy". Customers can be condescending and mean, often for no real reason other than that's who they are and the trades in general put up with that kind of person because they don't have the draw of higher end gigs.

Whoppertime 2y ago
It goes back to how society deals with outliers In Japan I commonly hear "The nail that sticks out gets hammered down". In America I commonly hear "The squeaky wheel gets the grease" I suspect both are true depending on the circumstances
- class3shock 2y ago
  Out of curiosity are the trades in Japan a higher end gig? Or similar to the US? In the US alot of trade jobs are low end and the people in them don't exactly take pride in their work whereas I've always had the impression Japanese folks have more of a focus on doing a craft, whatever it may be, well.

edwbuck 2y ago

All that I can add of value is summed up in the phrase "Sweet hood, you go girl!" Personally, there are many jobs that people just don't understand because they just don't interact with them. Welding is one example, but there are many. My Uncle died with a well deserved lifestyle after doing "large pipe" welding. The definition of large, in this case, was pipe you could theoretically drive a car through. Just to weld the pipe together from plate steel, one would have to weld together a rig to hold the plate, as well as a roller press to bend the plate correctly. People would be astounded that I, a software developer, would hold a welder in such high esteem, but while I might be (my own, probably faulty estimate) in the top 10,000 he was in the top 100 (again my own, probably faulty estimate). I've seen him walk into a job that took three "lesser" welder (mind you, these are family members, so please don't call them out as such) six hours and complete it in 20 minutes. I'm what one might call a 10x programmer. That said, he was at least a 100x welder. Alas, he died due to a lung full of chromium, which is a real risk when welding the exotic metals that generally the top welders are asked to work. I miss him dearly, and Lon (Lonnie) if you can read this from heaven, you're still the best damned welder I've ever seen, and a true master of your craft. You inspire me to do better than I do. I only hope to become as good in my field as you are in yours.

glitchc 2y ago
I am happy to see you proud of your uncle, and am very sorry for your loss. You aptly described why the trades are in decline across the country: > Alas, he died due to a lung full of chromium, which is a real risk when welding the exotic metals that generally the top welders are asked to work. This is why. There's no appetite to do this kind of work. People are too comfortable.
- eszed 2y ago
  > There's no appetite to do this kind of work. People are too comfortable. I really hate implication of this statement. (You may not have meant exactly this, but I've heard it said with a straight face by others.) Syllogized: People don't want to do [unpleasant or dangerous job], therefore let's make the rest of life worse so they will. I can acknowledge the logic to that position, but there is also a logic to let's make [job] less dangerous, more bearable, and / or better compensated. (To be clear: ensuring safety is broadly speaking the realm of government to enforce. Improving pay and working conditions is the responsibility of employers. Unions can affect both, but require the support of the state to be viable.) I don't understand why anyone would choose the option which increases human misery. In what moral system is that the right thing to do?

whartung 2y ago

If anyone is looking to get in on the ground floor of a welding career, the Navy and their contractors have stood up buildsubmarines.com. Apparently it's a large effort to recruit 100,000(!!) trades people, of all sorts, for a very large effort to build a lot of submarines. And one thing they certainly need is welders. And they're training. The opening video even has a female welder in it. It's more of a grand assembly endeavor than a grand engineering endeavor (like the Apollo program was), but I know my time in the defense industry (supporting naval weapon systems: Standard Missile, Phalanx, RAM, etc.) was an interesting time. I've built enough software systems from seed that grew, flourished, and died with a simple `rm` command to know it can be interesting to point at a big metal hole in the water and say "I helped build that".

bastloing 2y ago

Great! I feel good watching women and men doing all the jobs and sports they can do, regardless of gender.

paulcole 2y ago

> I’ve daydreamed about learning a trade – something that required both my mind and my hands. Respect to her for actually doing it unlike every other email-job-holder who just revels in telling other people to learn a trade.

stonesthrowaway 2y ago

Only 5.3%? That's a lot more than I expected. > 'comparing me to my co-worker: “You’re better looking than the guy I talked to before.”' That's just harmless workplace banter. Why not just joke back? If that's worst example of 'sexism' she experienced, then the headline should read: "Welding profession is the least sexist profession in the world". Far less sexist than nursing or academia... > Although I have a good gig as a full professor at Iowa State University, I’ve daydreamed about learning a trade – something that required both my mind and my hands. I'm skeptical. I think you daydreamed about writing an article about workplace sexism and welding was just a means to that end.

tomcam 2y ago

> I laid down the welds and put my hood up and the guy goes, ‘Well, goddamn, bitch can weld,’ and I was like, ‘Oh my god, thank god.’” The article refers to various forms of sexism and harassment, including the passage above. I’m absolutely not denying that these things happen in the workplace. That would be insane. But it is also true that the exact exchange above could completely have happened between two guys. Anyone who knows tradesmen understands that there’s a fair amount of good natured hassling of coworkers that has nothing to do with sexism. A lot of this work is dangerous and has to happen quickly and on schedule. You’re not really given serious responsibilities until you can demonstrate you’re not going to get someone crushed under a heavy weight or burned. It might be that she is misinterpreting some of this, but I must concede that she’s kind of a badass because she completed all three years of training and actually does work as a welder.