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How does this stop one of the most common practices? * Step 1, take a product with a terrible rating * Step 2, create a new SKU for the exact same product so
by onlyrealcuzzo 2y ago
How does this stop one of the most common practices?
* Step 1, take a product with a terrible rating
* Step 2, create a new SKU for the exact same product so it has no ratings
* Step 3, get a handful of fake 5-star reviews (in some way the FTC isn't going to crack down on)
* Step 4, blast the old terribly reviewed product that now has good reviews on marketing
* Step 5, get 10s of thousands of sales, $$$
* Step 6, let the terrible reviews pour in
Repeat to step 1 (possibly under a different brand name).
- soco 2y agoTo all commenters quickly pointing out the ways this rule is far from perfect: you are completely right. This being clarified, is the alternative doing nothing? Because that's where we are.
- maerF0x0 2y agoWell, I think where we are is having to prove its fraudulent. Agreed, impractically difficult.
- conductr 2y agoWhen the FTC says "we're cracking down on online reviews" with things like this the average Joe gains more confidence in them, so yes, the doing nothing approach is actually better IMO.
- maxerickson 2y agoSo never do anything unless you can guarantee a particular outcome?
- conductr 2y agoThat’s a stretch. But things like this only create a false illusion of safety/honesty which can actually be a tailwind for dishonesty.
- hluska 2y agoSo, don’t do anything at all because there will always be an issue with anything you do? Being negative is a weakness.
- conductr 2y agoHow about; do things that you can enforce and expect a positive net impact from, do things in a way that will address the dozens of obvious first impression questions that came up here due to lack of specifics. If you’re going to do it, put some thought into its execution and administration. And most of all, don’t make global generalizations on commentary that is quite specific and on a very particular topic.
- bcrosby95 2y agoThey have though. This has been a 2 year process. https://www.ftc.gov/news-events/news/press-releases/2022/10/ftc-explore-rulemaking-combat-fake-reviews-other-deceptive-endorsements https://www.ftc.gov/news-events/news/press-releases/2022/10/... https://www.ftc.gov/news-events/news/press-releases/2023/06/federal-trade-commission-announces-proposed-rule-banning-fake-reviews-testimonials https://www.ftc.gov/news-events/news/press-releases/2023/06/... They probably came to different conclusions as you. And I'm sure they have reasons why they left some of that stuff on the original list out. Because they spent 2 years looking at this rather than going with their "obvious first impression questions". You'll also note from those links that they have already been pursuing some companies over this stuff. So they're probably aware of what they're up against.
- maxerickson 2y agoMy assessment is more that the average consumer won't have any idea that the FTC is doing this, so I am not real worried about the downsides.
- conductr 2y agoNot initially, but in time they tend to hear about it. Some shops are bound to brag that their reviews are FTC compliant and unbiased, etc.
- jessriedel 2y agoRules degenerating into infinite whack-a-mole is a strong (though inconclusive) signal a mistake is being made. "Let's ban rent increases". "Whoops, now all the landlords are slacking on property maintenance; let's mandate maintenance." "Whoops, now all the landlords have stopped making improvements; let's let them increase rents X% when they spend at least $Y on improvements." "Whoops,..." So you end up in some new equilibrium. Maybe that equilibrium is better, maybe it's worse, but it's simply not true that it's always better to do something rather than nothing, and pointing out the loopholes in the rules is valid criticism.
- maerF0x0 2y agoThis is an important thing to tackle too. Amazon is notorious for allowing shady practices like Sell product A for lots of 5* reviews, then change the product listing to a completely different thing (which may or may not deserve 5) ... Another aspect is review solicitation. eg: ios games often pop up with their own modal of "Rate us" and if you click 5 it redirects you to app store to make a review, if you click 4 or less it redirects you to a feedback form. They grease the path for positive reviewers.
- MBCook 2y agoiOS: That’s 100% against the rules. Much like other dark patterns like forcing a sign up or location access as gating to the rest of the app. Or using notifications for advertising. Now if only Apple would enforce those (or stop doing them themselves).
- schmidtleonard 2y agoUnenforced rules aren't rules so much as taxes on the honest.
- MichaelZuo 2y agoThat’s a pretty clever phrase!
- potato3732842 2y agoAnd a potential cudgel with which to strike those who's success is inconvenient.
- robertlagrant 2y agoAlso if they're selectively enforced then they are a way to discriminate.
- avandekleut 2y agooof - the app we work on at my company does all of these..
- s1artibartfast 2y agoIm curious about the opposite practice, sharing reviews across several SKUs. I basically stopped looking at reviews because they were unrelated to the one I was buying. I get that some products have configurations, like color and size, but often times wildly different products are grouped together.
- internet101010 2y agoCase in point: candle scents.
- layer8 2y agoOn Amazon you can filter by the current configuration on the review page (at least on desktop).
- Rebelgecko 2y agoOn mobile they make it pretty hard to read reviews (or maybe im in some sort of A/B test where I'm only allowed to ask their LLM about what the reviews say?)
- mrandish 2y agoI do this all the time because so many sellers bundle disparate products under one listing and rating. It's annoying that Amazon buries the option in the "See More Reviews" page which is only linked near the bottom of a product page.
- bilekas 2y agoSomething similar to this happens on eBay. Sellers will sell a product say a usb adapter, cheap and fully functional, users leave reviews and then the seller changes the listing to be a completely different item, retaining all the previous ratings and sale counts. How would this apply here is a good question. Wouldn't like to assume but regulatory bodies usually think about these things in advance no ?
- thereddaikon 2y agoHaven't ebay reviews always meant to be about the seller and not necessarily the product? Ebay started with the expectation it was normal people auctioning used goods. Having reviews for a specific product doesn't make sense when there is no fixed product. Obviously things have changed over the years but the site is still largely built around those assumptions.
- bilekas 2y agoYeah so when you view a listing now from a business it will show "100 units sold" but you're right it's crazy you can just change the whole product. I think it's specific for the business sellers.
- bcrosby95 2y agohttps://www.ftc.gov/news-events/news/press-releases/2023/06/federal-trade-commission-announces-proposed-rule-banning-fake-reviews-testimonials https://www.ftc.gov/news-events/news/press-releases/2023/06/... They proposed including review hijacking. There's probably a reason why they didn't include it. Or maybe they think the rules they included already cover it.
- cortesoft 2y agoI mean, step 3 would be illegal... your question is impossible to answer, since you hand waive the illegal step as saying "they do it in such a way that the FTC isn't going to crack down on". This is basically the equivalent of saying "How are you going to stop crime X if they commit crime X in a way that let's them get away with X?" Either they find a way to enforce the rules against step 3, or they fail to do so. We can't know yet.
- Supermancho 2y agoThe online shoppers, that I know, have learned to pass on products with a few high reviews, in a highly competitive space. If the signal weak, it's not something to trust.
- Suppafly 2y agoWell step 3 is the part they just made illegal. If you are OK with breaking the law, nothing is going to stop you until you get caught and fined. Presumably the getting caught and fined part will be enough deterrent.
- onlyrealcuzzo 2y agoThere's a difference between "fake as defined by the FTC which you will actually get in trouble for" and "fake".
- jasonlotito 2y agoIt's your comment in the context of the FTC. You said it was fake, in the context of the FTC. Why are you debating yourself?
- onlyrealcuzzo 2y agoPlease re-read. The FTC defining it as fake means nothing if the FTC does not, in practice, crack down on it regularly. The FTC can say it's illegal to do X, and all companies can do X with impunity if the FTC, in practice, does not do anything about it when companies do X.
- sidewndr46 2y agowhat qualifies a review as fake? If I write it, it's a review isn't it? The whole thing is subjective. Plenty of people love products I can't stand
- conductr 2y agoAnd how do they even audit it? Do they require only users who verifiably used/purchased the product to submit reviews? Do they require the reviewer to actually use the product? for sufficient amount of time so that the review is more than just "first impression"? So many loopholes, this won't change anything except perhaps a few big marketplaces but it's doubtful they will be able to police it
- rendaw 2y agoRating averaging methods _should_ treat scores with fewer data points as less trustworthy and either suppress showing the score or apply some early-rating bias. I.e. if users are sorting by rating new products should never be near the top. Otherwise it should be possible to sort products or even brands/sellers by age and prefer older ones with more reviews. I'm not sure Amazon does the first though ATM, and it definitely doesn't do the latter.
- slipperybeluga 2y agoThis doesn't help when every useless chinese widget on Amazon with a RNG created brand name has literally thousands or even tens of thousands of fake reviews. Yeah like 10,000+ were so enamored with this {insert useless item here} that they felt compelled to leave a 5 star review. Amazon has totally sold out like eBay. I don't shop on either anymore because it's hard to find real brands and feedback and reviews are fake. Not to mention the blatant fakes of major products ...
- reaperman 2y agoNot sure why this was flagged - it echoes my experience pretty accurately!
- bluGill 2y agoUnfortunately some of the weird things I need I can't figure out who else sells them. I can search amazon or ebay and find someone but they don't have a presence elsewhere (at least not that I can find)
- alok-g 2y agoI do not think the collective rating on Amazon is a blind average of the individual reviews and ratings. So what you say is probably already being done along with use of other similar signals.
- lancesells 2y agoShop other places besides Amazon. They've enabled all of this to increase profits.
- banannaise 2y agoIt's in the rules. Emphasis mine: Fake or False Consumer Reviews, Consumer Testimonials, and Celebrity Testimonials: The final rule addresses reviews and testimonials that misrepresent that they are by someone who does not exist, such as AI-generated fake reviews, or who did not have actual experience with the business or its products or services If you covertly switch the product, then the reviews shown are from people who did not have actual experience with the product.
- bluecalm 2y agoAirbnb's business model in a nutshell :)
- sigh_again 2y ago>How does this stop one of the most common practices? It doesn't, as long as the US keeps operating on only the letter of the law. It's obvious you're trying to work around a law that might be incomplete. Everyone involves knows they're trying to play around, find a loophole. Everyone knows it _should_ be illegal, but isn't. As long as the US legal system does not punish for blatantly breaking the spirit of the law, you're going to get screwed.
- willywanker 2y agoIn general, this generation of application developers (not just mobile) never learned one of the most basic rules of UX, that goes back to the 90s - don't bug the user with unnecessary information and absolutely avoid using modal popups unless it's really important (to the user, not you). Those responsible for the business decision to add newsletter subscription and 'try our mobile app' popups in addition to app review ones need to be strung up with piano wire.