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BMW Overtakes Tesla in European EV Sales for First Time
- rsynnott 2y ago‘Overtakes’. The major qualification for headline-writer, as always, appears to be the ability to make slightly crap puns.
- electronbeam 2y agoMaybe I’m in a bubble, but I didn’t even notice BMW had EVs
- rsynnott 2y agoAre you in America? I think their market penetration there is still extremely low. Most of BMW’s electric cars (with the exception of the notably weird-looking i3) are also pretty subtle; you wouldn’t really know they were electric unless you looked closely. In particular, they’ve kept some approximation of their trademark grille.
- NewJazz 2y agoAre you based in the EU?
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- SllX 2y agoThey’ve been in the BEV market for a bit. Not long after the first Tesla Model S was released, BMW released the i3. That one’s since been discontinued but they have at least 8 other BMW i models on the market.
- darkteflon 2y agoThe i3 was such a great city car, well ahead of its time. Such a shame that they have apparently abandoned the EV design ethos embodied in that car (and that car alone) in favour of bloated luxo-barges. Tell me that your EV strategy is about brand greenwashing without telling me it’s about brand greenwashing. They seem to be really focused on chasing the Boomer demographic. I’m a happy former customer (twice over) but wouldn’t consider anything in their EV range - which means I wouldn’t consider buying a BMW again at all unless there’s some sort of radical strategic change.
- linotype 2y agoMany (not all, obviously) boomers will never buy an EV because of identity politics in the midwestern United States. I wouldn’t be surprised if this is true elsewhere as well. Why they’re not pumping out $25k 250 mile range city cars for millenials and gen z is a mystery to me.
- rsynnott 2y agoIn most of Europe, at least, the “producing lots of CO2 is good, actually” thing popular on the US right is just not a significant factor in mainstream politics. In practice, looked at globally, it’s mostly only a thing in big fossil fuel producers; the stats on global warming denial in particular are very stark, with the US and Australia _way_ out ahead of the rest of the developed world.
- bdcravens 2y agoThe same reason why the industry pushed away from the sedan and onto larger SUVs: profit margins. The Chevy Bolt was very close to what you described and was cancelled (brought back, but cancelling it was a momentum killer)
- fy20 2y agoIn Europe the Dacia Spring is available for under €20k on the road, and it is a proper car similar to others in the compact range - not a toy like the Citroen Ami (that thing doesn't even have heating). However it's really the only car like that available in Europe, and Dacia isn't exactly known for it's reliability (sorry Romania). Plus at that price point they are not competing with other compacts - which aren't that popular anyway - but with a 2-4 year old used car. One of my collegues just bought a 4 year old Toyota Avensis for the same price. Which one do you think will last longer?
- Etheryte 2y agoWhile BMW does have some models that are blatantly electric like the i3, most of their electric cars look pretty much just like the regular gasoline ones. I think it's a clever move that taps into their existing market dynamic.
- jeffbee 2y ago> most of their electric cars look pretty much just like the regular gasoline ones Right, they have disguised the electric ones as phenomenally ugly late-stage German cars, so you can't really tell they are electric without getting closer than you'd really like. From a safe distance it just looks like any other BMW with grill cancer.
- readyplayernull 2y agoThey must love their Adolf's toothbrush grill.
- amelius 2y agoDon't they pack the batteries in the floor, making the car necessarily higher? Isn't this the biggest difference? And the weight, of course.
- to11mtm 2y ago> Don't they pack the batteries in the floor, making the car necessarily higher? Isn't this the biggest difference? Batteries in the floor make a good amount of sense if done right. 1. Just the battery for a -hybrid- (1.1kWh) can weigh at least half as much as a 3 cylinder engine. putting it either under the front or in the trunk is an issue, as now you have to have a more reinforced firewall or reinforced whatever to keep the battery from being an additional force in an impact. 2. Lower center of gravity is always a good thing. > And the weight, of course. 3. Weight is interesting because we start to see some of the fun 'delta-V' issues. As an example look at the GMC Hummer EV, the F-150 Lightning, and the Cybertruck. You can see that as the weight goes up the amount of battery to increase range also goes waaayyyy up.
- connicpu 2y agoAt this point I feel like it's easier to list all the car companies that don't have EV offerings than all of the ones that do.
- the_mitsuhiko 2y agoCannot judge if you are in a bubble but BMW has more variety for electric models than Tesla. There are probably some customers that care.
- nicce 2y agoI would never buy Tesla personally if there is an alrernative with decades of experience, like BMW
- reducesuffering 2y agoThat's not a good heuristic since Teslas have been far better than the i3
- nicce 2y agoDepends on how you measure it. Teslas rank at #1 as the most faulty electric car in existence. Everything else than the battery or motors are poor quality if you compare to any other above average brand.
- porphyra 2y agoI would rather take panel gaps and paint chips than faulty battery or motors. Most sources would agree that small cosmetic defects aside, Tesla has the quite good drivetrain and battery reliability. [0] https://www.consumerreports.org/cars/car-reliability-owner-satisfaction/tesla-and-nissan-make-the-most-reliable-electric-vehicles-a1003912076/ https://www.consumerreports.org/cars/car-reliability-owner-s... [1] https://www.consumerreports.org/cars/car-reliability-owner-satisfaction/electric-vehicles-are-less-reliable-than-conventional-cars-a1047214174 https://www.consumerreports.org/cars/car-reliability-owner-s...
- cobalt 2y agomost faulty by raw numbers or by %? Also poor quality of what?
- kpw94 2y agoThey're easy to spot, at least for recent sedans & suv, they're the ones with a front grille looking like beaver teeth and the grille look more solid vs traditional vent (which make sense since there's no combustion engine that needs cold air intake to cool down) https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.businessinsider.com/bmw-ix-electric-suv-review-interior-luxury-2022-6%3famp https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.businessinsider.com/bmw-ix-...
- deleted 2y ago[deleted]
- closeparen 2y agoThe most popular BMW EV is probably the i4, which has that incredibly loud and ugly 4-series grille shape with a flat, plasticky-looking material. They're very noticeable! In a bad way. Image: https://bmwi.bimmerpost.com/forums/attachment.php?s=aae66d266bd8ee4d08bab805a38ad534&attachmentid=3180733&stc=1&d=1684066072 https://bmwi.bimmerpost.com/forums/attachment.php?s=aae66d26...
- rgreekguy 2y agoAt least down here, there are few options that are not electric to some extent. Every brand has at least 2-3 fully electric cars, and the rest of the lineup is hybrid. Suzuki has Jimny that is not (yet?) hybrid, and maybe BMW and Mercedes have some non-electric (to any extent) options, due to the sheer size of their roster.
- bdcravens 2y agoUnlike other brands, their EVs don't look much different than their ICE cars (though their earliest attempts, like the i3, were definitely nothing like what they sold). I'm pretty sure this is intentional; they're trying to replicate the BMW experience, and make it less about the drivetrain.
- throwadobe 2y agoare you in Europe, which TFA discusses?
- TacticalCoder 2y ago> Maybe I’m in a bubble, but I didn’t even notice BMW had EVs I'd say you've indeed been living in a serious bubble. The European Commission decided, years ago, that by 2035 (which is around the corner), not a single new car could be sold in the EU if it wasn't 100% electric. Not even hybrid. Since that decision they backtracked a little bit but meanwhile all the german automanufacturers started freaking out and started, in a hurry, to come up with EVs. It's not just BMW. Porsche, Mercedes, Audi/VW: they all produce EVs now.
- regnull 2y agoYou might not notice them because they look like regular BMW. For example, you wouldn't know i4 is electric just by looks. But I'd recommend anyone who is thinking of buying a Tesla to give BMW EV a test drive, you might end up getting it (like I did).
- jeffbee 2y agoHow much of this is driven by lumpy delivery? Tesla used to do this all the time: book thousands of orders, send them all over on a boat at once, then announce that they were the top-selling car in Swagistan (for that month, and no longer time scale). Is it the same story for BMW?
- streptomycin 2y agoYes https://i.imgur.com/ZNv1AyD.jpg https://i.imgur.com/ZNv1AyD.jpg Although BMW is making some nice EVs and they are selling more than they used to, the headline is misleading.
- deleted 2y ago[deleted]
- ultrablack 2y agoThis! ^^ Tesla produce a lot of for the EU in China. They have a schedule where for each quarter, months 1, 2 and 3, in Month 1, they produce cars. In Month 2 they sail them over from China. And in Month 3, they arrive and are sold. BMW managed to overtake Tesla in the first month of Q3, barely. When Tesla really had no cars for sale.
- deleted 2y ago[deleted]
- MBCook 2y agoWe've never known how poplar Tesla is vs electric cars. For a long time they were the only option outside of a few individual models (Leaf, i3, Volt). They were easily the most well known. We're at the point where Tesla will stop being a near default choice as people realize they have other options. So we'll start to find out what their popularity really is. The US has also been distorted by the charging network issue, but as more and more manufacturers get access to the Tesla network in the next few years that will cease to be an advantage too.
- devvvvvvv 2y ago
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- two_handfuls 2y agoThe Tesla brand has suffered enormously due to the actions of its owner.
- epistasis 2y agoYes, Tesla's execution has been really terrible. There's some really good tech inside their cars, but the direction of which cars to make, when, and the investments in non-car tech, the over-promising of "Full Self Driving," etc. All huge detractors. There's also the CEO, who has a huge public profile, deciding to become extremely political, which smart CEOs usually avoid doing because it has little potential to help and lots of potential to hurt. Especially with Musk's particular choice of which politics he wants to push, which alienate not only customers but also the government political forces. Tesla has massively benefited from subsidies to EVs, but is alienating the political party that has enabled all of that. If Tesla had been run by a different CEO for the past, say, 3 years, nearly any CEO, I think it would be in a better position. I really like my Model 3, but I won't be buying it again, and the direction of the Cyber Truck is so repulsive to me that I'm really really against being associated with the brand at all.
- root_axis 2y ago> Tesla has massively benefited from subsidies to EVs, but is alienating the political party that has enabled all of that. Well, he's expecting some reciprocity from the next administration for all his help, and Trump has said openly that he will support EVs as a consequence of Elon's strong support.
- mensetmanusman 2y agoThe political party that ignored Tesla’s accomplishments because of union politics?
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- nova22033 2y agoconcerning..
- leesec 2y agoTesla still way ahead in yearly sales and other EV's are suffering tremendously from large incentives to clear their inventories. Model Y remains on track to be the best selling car in the world two years in a row, while being roughly double the cost of the next best selling car.
- NightlyDev 2y agoNo, BYD passed Tesla in sales in Q4 2023. Tesla was ahead, but that is no longer the case.
- mensetmanusman 2y agoByd is selling $10k vehicles. Those would be considered nice golf carts in the us.
- HDThoreaun 2y agoBYD's cars are nicer than GMs though.
- ranguna 2y agoPoint being?
- acdha 2y agoThis isn’t remotely true unless your golf carts are equipped with climate control, comfortable seats, entertainment systems, etc. and have ranges measured in the hundreds of miles. They’re selling well internationally because they’re a good deal and countries which don’t have domestic car manufacturers to protect aren’t trying to keep them out. The U.S. has tariffs because Detroit has been chasing the luxury market and isn’t prepared to compete on price. https://apnews.com/article/china-byd-auto-seagull-auto-ev-cae20c92432b74e95c234d93ec1df400 https://apnews.com/article/china-byd-auto-seagull-auto-ev-ca...
- electriclove 2y agoWhat a frustrating article.. I couldn’t find the actual number of sales. This article seems to be about the same story and indicates this was in regards to monthly sales: https://www.teslarati.com/bmw-overtakes-tesla-in-europe-july-2024/ https://www.teslarati.com/bmw-overtakes-tesla-in-europe-july... It is good to see there are more players creating EVs that people are willing to buy.
- jacobgorm 2y agoNobody in Europe wants to buy from Elon.
- I_o_IllI__o_I 2y ago[dead]
- linuxhansl 2y agoAnd yet today BWM's marketcap is about $70bn (~53bn Euros) vs Tesla's $690bn. Is there really 10x the potential? Edit: My formulation is confusing. I meant whether folks really think that Tesla will eventually have 10x BMW's revenue.
- ddulaney 2y agoI’d suggest that Tesla is high rather than BMW being low. It’s the only way for a normal person who is a Musk fan to buy into any part of his empire, so you have demand from people who are Musk fans and express that fandom by buying stocks.
- linuxhansl 2y agoSorry, that's what I meant, but formulated badly... Do people really think that Tesla has a 10x future revenue upside compared to BMW.
- leesec 2y agoNo theres about 100x
- rootusrootus 2y agoTesla has a market cap twice what Toyota does. They have a P/E ratio over 60, vs about 7 for Toyota. Clearly the market thinks Tesla's future is not as a car company, because compared to literally every other car manufacturer they are wildly overvalued. My personal opinion is that TSLA has only one direction to go for a while. Down. Nothing about the business supports the market optimism. Not that I'm going to run out and short the stock, mind you, that old adage about how long the market can stay irrational seems very on point in this case.
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- jackedEngineer 2y agoI did some digging.The title is misleading - YTD Tesla is way ahead - https://imgur.com/56eG7CN https://imgur.com/56eG7CN Actual Numbers - BMW registration for the month of July 2024 were up by 300~ cars. Original Source - https://www.jato.com/resources/media-and-press-releases/bmw-tops-bev-market-in-july-amid-ev-registration-slowdown https://www.jato.com/resources/media-and-press-releases/bmw-... Quoting this comment - streptomycin- Yes https://i.imgur.com/ZNv1AyD.jpg https://i.imgur.com/ZNv1AyD.jpg Although BMW is making some nice EVs and they are selling more than they used to, the headline is misleading. ultrablack22 - Tesla produce a lot of for the EU in China. They have a schedule where for each quarter, months 1, 2 and 3, in Month 1, they produce cars. In Month 2 they sail them over from China. And in Month 3, they arrive and are sold. BMW managed to overtake Tesla in the first month of Q3, barely. When Tesla really had no cars for sale.
- deleted 2y ago[deleted]
- dylan604 2y ago> BMW registration for the month of July 2024 Do the manufactures consider sales to dealers in their sales numbers or are they actual sales to people that then registers the car as in use?
- mathgeek 2y agoRegistration is generally done when the consumer takes possession of the vehicle.
- dylan604 2y agoI understand when registration is done, but that does not answer the question. Are the numbers what the makers sell to the dealers but have yet been sold to a buyer, or are they legit sells to buyers? I can see where the makers pad their numbers by using what was sold to the dealers to have on the lots as they've technically sold the car, but it's a misleading number. Same game as storage makers using powers of 10 vs powers of 2 in their capacity claims.
- hungie 2y agoThis is going to happen eventually. There are many reasons why Tesla is going to hit a ceiling. Tesla build quality is terrible. Their service department is overbooked, under staffed, expensive, and not set up for success. Environmental people won't want to support Elon, and right wing people who like him won't want to buy an electric car. It's only a matter of time before established players eat Tesla's lunch.
- primitivesuave 2y agoIn this particular case, it's worth the reminder that BMW's founder (Günther Quandt) was a strong financial supporter of the Nazi party, and his children (Herbert and Harald Quandt) enslaved tens of thousands of people in BMW factories before the collapse of Nazi Germany. I'm not trying to tell anyone to boycott BMW or Mercedes - just trying to add some historical context for those who instantly react to Tesla news with "Elon is bad".
- lotsofpulp 2y agoIt’s not worth the reminder because one is dead and not relevant, whereas one is alive and influential.
- kanbara 2y agolived in germany for 8 years. the living heiress to a biscuit company fortune is still a nazi sympathiser today. nobody cares about the bmw founder who is dead. every company in germany had ties to the NSDAP, let’s focus on real nazis and antisemites and racists (elon) not dead ones.
- primitivesuave 2y agoGenuinely curious here and not trying to start a debate or sound rhetorical (I just don't keep up with the news that much) - what did Elon do that was racist?
- abenga 2y ago> what did Elon do that was racist? Explicitly allow and encourage racists on his social media platform?
- tim333 2y agoNot that much as far as I can tell. He's against DEI and uncontrolled immigration across the US Mexico border. He also annoyed me as a Brit recently retweeting some stuff that civil was inevitable in the UK because we'd let a lot of muslims in. Not that I think you shouldn't be able to criticize islam but it's very far from the reality here and there's no need to amplify a lot of bunk from people who have probably never been to the UK.
- hilux 2y agoI read the first three words, and I was like ... "really?!"
- shinycode 2y agoI’m sorry, is there really that much people buying brand new cars ? I feel so poor when I see those prices and I’m not (for a European). The prices of new cars shock me. I even feel like people criticize the price of an iPhone or AVP because it’s too expensive but with cars … the price of a paint is the price of the iPhone (metaphorically, options are really expensive) and nobody debate any of that ?
- tim333 2y agoI'm surprised that they've become so expensive. You'd think that as manufacturing improves they would be cheaper to churn out.