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One dead as London-Singapore flight hit by turbulence
- rldjbpin 2y agowhile the loose seatbelt at the minimum throughout the flight has been highlighted here, there are other aspects here that did not go well. why was meal service provided when the staff is aware of the weather conditions? the seatbelt sign is usually shown at a slight deterioration of weather, i wonder why they went ahead with this. thoughts and prayers.
- thyrox 2y agoSurprised the headline didn't mention it was a Boeing 777. Points to bbc for not going for the obvious clickbait.
- dewey 2y agoWhy would the 777 be clickbait? 737 maybe.
- manarth 2y ago"Boeing" would be the clickbait.
- pooper 2y agoI clicked just to check if it was a Boeing so not mentioning Boeing is also click bait?
- ibejoeb 2y agoThe 787 has been in the news very recently for two possibly related incidences of sudden nose-down resulting in similar injuries. They aren't turbulence related, but writing "Boeing" and "injury" in the same headline is going to draw clicks.
- phendrenad2 2y agoThe bar is truly low is we're congratulating the media that.
- deleted 2y ago[deleted]
- jmyeet 2y agoThere are no details here. Thw two obvious questions that will be investigated are: 1. Was there any warning for the turbulence? A lot can be picked up by radar but not all and it depends on what equipment the airplane has although Singapore Airlines isn't known for skimping on equipment like that. 2. Was the seat belt sign on? Was the passenger wearing their seat belt? Basically, was the airline at fault? Was the crew at fault? Was the pasesnger at fault? Or was it just an freak accident? This will take time to answer.
- PaulRobinson 2y agoI am confident that authorities (and insurance companies), will want to apportion blame. However, I want to just stress: while there are some known poor conditions tech can help pilots avoid (for example, thunder storms - pilots avoid those clouds for good reason), there are many types of turbulence which can not be predicted or detected by ground or air based systems. We are all individually responsible for our behaviour on the aircraft. Regardless of the seatbelt sign status, keep it fastened when seated. If it's lit, stay seated. If it isn't, minimise the time you're not seated. Yes, it's not great on long haul, but the difference between smooth air and being thrown around by an air pocket is seconds. This severity is thankfully very rare, but that doesn't mean any of us should not consider it a risk when deciding how to behave in a plane cabin.
- 1a_user 2y agoApportioning blame is one thing the authorities will not want to do: "The TSIB is the air, marine and rail accidents and incidents investigation authority in Singapore. Its mission is to promote transport safety through the conduct of independent investigations into air, marine and rail accidents and incidents. The sole objective of TSIB’s safety investigations is the prevention of transport accidents and incidents. The safety investigations do not seek to apportion blame or liability. Accordingly, TSIB reports should not be used to assign blame or determine liability." And: "The sole objective of the investigation of an accident or incident under these Regulations is the prevention of future accidents and incidents. It is not the purpose of such an investigation to apportion blame or liability. Accordingly, it is inappropriate that [UK] AAIB reports should be used to assign fault or blame or determine liability, since neither the investigation nor the reporting process has been undertaken for that purpose." Apportioning blame is how you lose transparency in air accident investigations.
- Rygian 2y agoAVHerald summaries (but not comments) are always a good place to check for further news and objective data. https://avherald.com/h?article=518e5d47&opt=0 https://avherald.com/h?article=518e5d47&opt=0
- monkey_monkey 2y ago> The Associated Press has analysed tracking data captured by FlightRadar24 which showed the Singapore Airlines flight cruising at an altitude of 37,000 ft. Just after 8am GMT, the Boeing 777 suddenly pitched down to 31,000 ft over the span of about three minutes, the data indicates.
- ibejoeb 2y ago2,000 fpm sounds like the pilot changing flight level to evade the turbulence, not the turbulence itself.
- filleduchaos 2y agoIt wasn't even turbulence evasion, if you actually look at the flight data it's just the plane coming in to Bangkok (its diversion airport).
- PaulRobinson 2y agoTragic, horrid and going to make a lot of nervous flyers more nervous. I've been through some pretty heavy turbulence in my time, but thankfully nothing this severe. I've been through enough though to know that a lot of people don't take it very seriously. I've been on flights with screaming passengers, and _very_ quiet British Marines, both in reaction to some pretty nasty air, and I'm always surprised that turbulence surprises people. It's part of flying. There's a reason why you're advised to keep your seatbelt fastened when seated. I simply don't understand some cabins that have cocktail bars in them - are you absolutely crazy? Air pockets are horrific, and there is nothing pilots can do to avoid unexpected ones. One minute you can be sipping your vodka martini, the next you can be thrown around to the point you're hitting the ceiling and then the floor within a couple of seconds of each other, and hard, hard enough to kill you. Even on transatlantic flights (LHR to SFO or LAX is normal for me), I'm only getting out of my seat if I absolutely 100% have to go to the bathroom, and then I'm going to reduce time not buckled in to absolute minimum.
- coldtea 2y ago>There's a reason why you're advised to keep your seatbelt fastened when seated. I simply don't understand some cabins that have cocktail bars in them - are you absolutely crazy? No, just not pusillanimous about it, given the odds.
- ghaff 2y agoThere are a bunch of things airlines could do. Eliminate drink & food/snack service. Strap in 3 point harness for the whole trip and pee in a bottle if you must. I suspect those would be… unpopular. At least some airlines banned hardcover books during takeoff and landing for a time.
- onlyonhn2 2y agoCareful with the non-declared /s. Some of these people would actually push for these reforms given a little encouragement.
- ed_mercer 2y agoNow I know why you should always wear your seatbelt, even when the light is off.
- ceejayoz 2y agoAnd close the overhead luggage compartments when you're done getting something out.
- amelius 2y ago> Research has shown that climate change will make severe turbulence more likely in the future. In the grand scheme of things, this sounds like a fair punishment for humanity.
- voisin 2y agoI haven’t experienced much turbulence in maybe 15 years, whereas I remember in the 90s I experienced tons of turbulence in almost every flight. I am not sure if this is something modern airliners have been designed to deal with or avoid, or not. Has anyone else experienced this or is my memory just faulty?
- crest 2y agoProbably biased memory and better weather radar allowing planes to avoid turbulence more often.
- consumer451 2y agoThe data seems to show a significant increase in clear-air turbulence, apparently due to increased energy in the system from climate change. I have heard people say "when you add energy into a chaotic system, it becomes more chaotic." > Moderate turbulence increased by 37%, and light turbulence increased by 17% during this period. Other flight routes over the U.S., Europe, the Middle East, and the South Atlantic also significantly increased. https://www.forbes.com/sites/marisagarcia/2023/11/20/more-clear-air-turbulence-from-climate-change-raises-safety-concerns/ https://www.forbes.com/sites/marisagarcia/2023/11/20/more-cl...
- DrBazza 2y agoWe spent an extra 20 minutes on the tarmac at O'Hare last week whilst they replotted around a major thunderstorm over Canada. My recollection of bad turbulence is that same as yours - a flight to Seattle in '98 was the last time I can remember bad turbulence.
- deleted 2y ago[deleted]
- mvkel 2y agoIt may actually be improved radar tech, so finding smooth air is easier
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- DrNosferatu 2y agoI wonder if there’s data to assert what’s more dangerous in the long term: Stay absolutely seated and fastened for the whole flight; VS. Stay absolutely seated and fastened for the whole flight with a few breaks to walk around and stretch your legs. PS: Yes, sitting without fastening your seatbelt is just plain stupid.
- hggh 2y agoInstead of just walking around, drink lots of water and then go to the bathroom, and rinse and repeat (it also works if you don't enjoy your job office).
- aaron695 2y ago[dead]
- Johnythree 2y agoThe alternative is to do the standard sitting exercises intended to avoid DVT. eg wiggle your toes, flex your leg muscles, rock your feet, etc. All you need do is avoid pinch points which block blood flow. These are routinely taught to solders on point duty, pilots on long flights, patients confined to bed,etc.
- morsch 2y agoSerious injuries are very rare. Minor injuries aren't tracked by the NTSB. https://www.faa.gov/newsroom/turbulence https://www.faa.gov/newsroom/turbulence
- Rastonbury 2y agoYeah, to get a sense of rarity there are 800m passengers in flight to/from and within the US annually
- voisin 2y ago> Turbulence is most commonly caused by aircraft flying through cloud but there is also "clear air" turbulence which is not visible on a jet's weather radar nor is it possible to predict. Is this actually impossible for some theoretical constraint or have we just not invested in the R&D?
- thedrbrian 2y agoThe weather radar is tuned to detect water vapour. No water vapour no way to detect the wind/turbulence
- nick7376182 2y agoYou can do it with lasers, see this paper and references. Seems like small trials have been initiated since 2017 but no widespread use or FAA approval yet. https://www.sto.nato.int/publications/STO%20Meeting%20Proceedings/RTO-MP-SCI-162/MP-SCI-162-11.pdf https://www.sto.nato.int/publications/STO%20Meeting%20Procee... https://www.wired.com/story/boeing-jaxa-turbulence-lidar-laser/ https://www.wired.com/story/boeing-jaxa-turbulence-lidar-las...
- krisoft 2y agoSibling comment from thedrbrian explains it very well while it is unlikely to see clear air turbulence (CAT) with our current weather radars. Of course if cost would be not an object we could detect these events. One possible solution would be to fly companion drones ahead of the jet. They could then detect CAT quite easily by just running into them. The spacing is critical with this scheme. If the probe drone is too far ahead you risk CAT developing between it and your plane. If it is too close you won't have enough warning time. If it is even closer you just rammed the drone and that can cause complications in itself. Another possible option is to use laser backscatter. If you shine a laser forward from the airplane some of it bounces back from microparticles. If you measure the doppler shift of the light bounced back (probably with interferometry) you can tell the projected component of the relative speed of the particles. There is a ton of complications with this. But in theory you could make a "lidar" kind of thing which scans forward from the airplane and measure CATs directly. Here is a paper from NASA about this possibility from 1968: https://core.ac.uk/download/pdf/80667132.pdf https://core.ac.uk/download/pdf/80667132.pdf
- IG_Semmelweiss 2y agoI'll be the first to admit that I held conflicting views: For one, I never thought someone could die from turbulence (besides a medical condition such as heart risk). At the same time, I'm sure certain falls/impacts are quite lethal even in very short distances. Yet, i dont understand how turbulence makes a plane fall 6000 ft in 3min, unless the automated (turbulence?) avoidance system engaged and caused the injury in the 1st place. Yet, at the same time, the rate of descent may have been necessary to keep control of the plane. So many questions
- gcbirzan 2y agoDescending 6000 feet in 3 minutes is by no means special, that's just journalists being bad. Planes regularly descend at a higher rate, and nobody gets injured. Also, you don't need that high of a fall to have people get injured, a few tens of meters is more than enough, if it happens very suddenly (seconds, not minutes), which is the case with turbulence.
- kayodelycaon 2y agoThere is no such thing as turbulence detection. And I haven’t heard of automatic avoidance in any airplane I know about. (Unless you’re referring to something like the F-16 ground avoidance system.) There is “wind shear detection” but that relies on the planes weather radar detecting moving columns of water droplets.
- adamredwoods 2y agoNot automatic, but... https://icao.usmission.gov/air-carrier-turbulence-related-injuries-can-be-reduced-ntsb-finds/ https://icao.usmission.gov/air-carrier-turbulence-related-in... >> The study also highlighted a new product, a turbulence nowcast, that combines numerous data sources to produce forecasts that are updated every 15 minutes – providing air carriers, all users of the National Airspace System and the air traffic controllers who support them – timely and critical safety information about locations and severity of potential turbulence. The turbulence nowcast is not yet widely used so the NTSB recommended the FAA and the NWS work together to fully implement its adoption and use in the national airspace system.
- sva_ 2y ago> "So I started bracing for what was happening, and very suddenly there was a very dramatic drop so everyone seated and not wearing seatbelt was launched immediately into the ceiling," 28-year-old student Dzafran Azmir said. > "Some people hit their heads on the baggage cabins overhead and dented it, they hit the places where lights and masks are and broke straight through it." That's why I try to keep my seatbelt on at all times, ever since I went through some rough turbulences on my way to Dubai (layover)
- rob74 2y agoYup... I still don't understand why people decide to not put on their seatbelt while being seated. It's not like you have a lot more freedom of movement without the seatbelt? And it might just save your life in events like this one.
- portaouflop 2y agoDon’t tell me what to do!
- dailykoder 2y agoWhat's not to understand about this? Airplanes are just super f'in safe and most people just think that nothing will ever happen to them, because rarely anything happens. Things do happen, but walking around the plane is cooler
- lnxg33k1 2y agoYou know, I've been traveling a lot by place for the past 12 years, and its always been my personal terror, to have no seatbelt and the place hitting a turbulence throwing me on the ceiling... now I know it can happen.
- hggh 2y agoThere's a novel by Michael Crichton that starts with a very similar plot: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Airframe_(novel) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Airframe_(novel)
- donatj 2y agoI was once on a flight where my seatbelt refused to fasten and I said nothing because I didn't want to be moved away from my wife. Let me tell you, after reading this, that will never happen again.
- neilo40 2y agoI think they would have just brought you another. They unclip from the seat very easily (in a safe way of course)
- darkwater 2y agoHorrible news. Speaking of the physics involved, I was thinking: if it's just free fall, caused by gravity and no air sustaining the wings, this should not happen, right? Some random Quora answer says that it's because during turbulence there is actually air pressing wings down and accelerating them down faster than gravity, and that's why you hit the ceiling. Intuitively that makes sense but, can anyone confirm? Edit: because if it was just free-falling you should be in a micro-gravity environment
- maxlamb 2y agoThe downdraft could actually make the plane accelerate downwards faster than free fall (even just for a second or so), hence everything unattached hitting the ceiling
- kayodelycaon 2y agoAir moves and the plane will move with it, subject to inertia. Think of the air like water. (Air has fluid dynamics.)If the water suddenly drops away from a boat, the boat isn’t going to magically hover above the water.
- darkwater 2y agoObviously, but then the boat and all the objects within it would be experiencing the same gravity acceleration, immediately, at the same time.
- deleted 2y ago[deleted]
- xenadu02 2y ago> Obviously, but then the boat and all the objects within it would be experiencing the same gravity acceleration, immediately, at the same time. That is not correct. The airplane experiences this uniformly because the wings transmit the forces to the fuselage. But the contents of the aircraft follow Sir Issac Newton and want to continue their previous motion. If the aircraft experiences high enough negative G then anything not strapped down will appear to rise relative to the fuselage. To put it another way: you need a physical connection (eg seatbelt or cargo strap) to transmit the force in such an event, just as the fuselage needs a connection to the wings to transmit the force.
- luuurker 2y agoSad about the injured and especially the dead person. I don't think most people realise how violent turbulence can be or how badly things can go. In my last flight, someone on my row removed the seatbelt as soon the light went out and then when we landed, before we exited the runway. Like, why? If it bothers you that much, don't wear it too tight... but at least wear it.
- rwmj 2y agoThe BBC issued an update just now saying that he died of a heart attack.
- anavette 2y ago> Another passenger said the aircraft suddenly started "tilting up” and “shaking". > "[...] very suddenly there was a very dramatic drop [...]" Nose tipping up, followed by steep drop. Sounds like the plane stalled.
- t0mas88 2y agoNo. Passengers often experience things as "a big drop" while no such thing happened. In this case several news sites even claim it dropped 6000ft. But if you read the Avherald report (often a very good source) or look at the ADS-B data, you'll see they descended 6000ft in approximately 10 minutes. So that was just the crew deciding to get out of the turbulence by changing altitude in a normal way. You don't stall a jet from turbulence unless you're far higher than the maximum allowed altitude or otherwise way outside normal flight parameters.
- standardUser 2y agoI thought we learned everything we need to know about the importance of seatbelts on airplanes from the pilot episode of Lost!
- banish-m4 2y agoKids today believe everything that happened before they were born doesn't exist.
- hbarka 2y ago“A September 2022 study predicts that clear-air turbulence will increase significantly around the globe by the period 2050-2080, in particular along the busiest flight routes, and the strongest type of turbulence will increase the most.” https://edition.cnn.com/2024/05/21/world/singapore-airlines-turbulence-bangkok/index.html https://edition.cnn.com/2024/05/21/world/singapore-airlines-...
- cangeroo 2y agoWhy didn't they reference the study by title and author names? Who conducted the study? How can we fact check it? This is bad journalism.
- mikeyouse 2y agoIt's in the first link where it connects to NCAR and Dr. Paul Williams; https://www.met.reading.ac.uk/~williams/publications/2017GL074618.pdf https://www.met.reading.ac.uk/~williams/publications/2017GL0...
- hbarka 2y agohttps://news.agu.org/press-release/flights-worldwide-face-increased-risk-of-severe-turbulence-due-to-climate-change/ https://news.agu.org/press-release/flights-worldwide-face-in... A new study published online in Geophysical Research Letters, a journal of the American Geophysical Union, has calculated that climate change will significantly increase the amount of severe turbulence worldwide by 2050–2080. Severe turbulence involves forces stronger than gravity, and is strong enough to throw people and luggage around an aircraft cabin.
- banish-m4 2y agoThe interior damage appears extreme. Can any mech-aero engs or pilots confirm? EDIT: It's suggested on aviation forums that unbelted passengers hitting the interior broke the plastic retaining clips holding interior panels, leading to dangling debris.
- filleduchaos 2y agoThat's a well-known thing. Turbulence injuries come from being launched into the ceiling of the plane due to negative Gs. It's why the seatbelt is important - to restrain you to your seat.
- banish-m4 2y agoWell, duh. I just thought the interior fittings were more robust. I guess even they got the modern plastic "Lexus" treatment.
- Symbiote 2y agoIt is better that they bend and pop out, as that will absorb some of the impact.
- filleduchaos 2y agoI think you might be severely underestimating the forces involved, as well as confusing "strong" engineering for safe engineering. A ceiling that buckles when a human slams into it at an acceleration of -4g or more is a ceiling that doesn't severely fracture their skull and possibly kill them instantly.
- deleted 2y ago[deleted]
- greentxt 2y agoOne turbulence death out of millions and people here are like, “see, you die if you don’t keep your seatbelt fastened at all times!” Tbh, I do try to keep mine fastened, but generally don’t go anywhere, so as to maximize my safety.
- Ylpertnodi 2y ago73 years old, and died of a heart attack. I don't see that as 'turbulence death'.
- greentxt 2y ago"Died with turbulance."
- Affric 2y agoI think it’s more “what benefit is there to not having your seatbelt buckled that justifies and increased risk of death?”
- cl3misch 2y agoIf anything this makes me less scared of turbulence. If such an event does not damage the plane, the common turbulence surely won't.
- septic-liqueur 2y agoTurbulence is my biggest fear during flying. I always imagine the plane just snapping or something else starting to malfunction due to the turbulence. I know it's not supposed to happen, but there's a slight chance....
- nusl 2y agoYes, though the planes are also designed with this in mind and have tolerances to compensate and handle it.
- c_o_n_v_e_x 2y agoI lived in SG for 14 years. Without fail, the Bay of Bengal portion of the flight is always some of the consistently bumpiest air I fly in.
- consumer451 2y agoAccording to the NTSB data, turbulence encounters like this are the leading cause of airline accidents. Turbulence is the leading cause, not flying in a Boeing airframe, or whatever other meme you may have been sold. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0UYNFthOx1o&t=253s https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0UYNFthOx1o&t=253s
- mayd 2y agoFor all the pontificating in this thread about the need to follow safety advice regarding the wearing of seat belts (and bicycle helmets!) at all times, please note the following from the BBC report: > the London-Singapore flight suffered a sudden drop as a meal service was under way. Meal service is probably the single most vulnerable moment to encounter turbulence. How many of the safety-first-at-all-times brigade could dine while tightly strapped to their seat? And no matter how tightly strapped in you are, you could not avoid being splashed by scalding coffee, as some passengers on the in the report were. Also, the flight time from London to Singapore is 13 hours and 15 minutes (non-stop). How many of you would stay tightly strapped in at all times for that long?
- navigate8310 2y agoMaybe passengers would buckle their belts at all times, however cabin crew is the most vulnerable during meal service. Also, are the pilots required to wear belts at all times?
- mpalfrey 2y agoI'm flying LHR -> MEL on Friday on Singapore Airlines (on a 777 actually for LHR -> SIN). I tend to keep my seat belt fairly loosly fastened throughout the flight. At least once I've experienced bad turbulence around where this flight had it - enough to make me hold tightly onto things and for service to be stopped. Usually I need a few trips to the bathroom during the flight though and if nothing else, a chance to stretch my legs (20 hours on planes in 24 hours means walking around is important). Be interesting to see if anything is different on board (either with crew or fellow pax). RIP to the guy who died.
- throwaway2037 2y agoYou don't need to be "tightly strapped". Loosely strapped is good enough. On long haul flights, I see lots of people doing that.
- optiomal_isgood 2y agoI always eat with the seatbelt fastened. Why do you need to remove it? Considering the reduced leg space these days, the tray table is relatively within reach. Besides, I do a 12h route at least once a year, and yes I always have them on unless I'm stretching my legs or going to the toilet because that's the safety recommendation—not because I like it—I don't get your point.
- qxfys 2y agoflew this area countless times. cannot recall when I had a flight without turbulence.