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> . After performing a series of tests, it decided on April 12 to issue a recall after determining that an “[a]n unapproved change introduced lubricant (soap) t

> . After performing a series of tests, it decided on April 12 to issue a recall after determining that an “[a]n unapproved change introduced lubricant (soap) to aid in the component assembly of the pad onto the accelerator pedal,” and that “[r]esidual lubricant reduced the retention of the pad to the pedal.” How do you have so little quality control and insight into your manufacturing process that someone on your own production line can introduce a new step to your truck manufacturing process that no one noticed? I guess when analysts said the incumbent auto manufacturers would have a large advantage over Tesla in manufacturing, this is what they meant? Because this looks like a very unprofessional error to have made for a company that has done well up until now.

htrp 3y ago
>How do you have so little quality control and insight into your manufacturing process that someone on your own production line can introduce a new step to your truck manufacturing process that no one noticed? That's legal covering the company. I'd bet this was just a general design flaw.
- bitmasher9 3y ago
  To me both sound plausible (that the process was added, and that it’s a fabricated story). Either way we will never know, and ultimately it’s Tesla’s responsibility to make sure the accelerator pedal doesn’t get suck in the on position due to manufacturing defects.
  - smith7018 3y ago
    We’ll find out in discovery if a lawsuit around this ever happens, I suppose
- chrisjj 3y ago
  > That's legal covering the company. Er, how does it cover the company? Company is responsible regardless.
Ekaros 3y ago
[flagged]
- scott_w 3y ago
  It doesn’t seem to happen in other companies…
  - bryanlarsen 3y ago
    Yes it does, it just doesn't make the news.
    - scott_w 3y ago
      I’m specifically referring to introducing steps into the manufacturing process with no oversight, which the (now flagged) post was saying Musk couldn’t foresee.
  - brandonagr2 3y ago
    Not clear if you are being sarcastic or not, recalls are way more common in other brands, with Ford leading the charts on number of recalls. https://www.powernationtv.com/post/auto-brands-with-the-most-recalls-2023 https://www.powernationtv.com/post/auto-brands-with-the-most...
    - seventytwo 3y ago
      This is an area where recalls is a bad metric. It could be that a company with high rates of recalls is actually very good and just issues recalls for smaller things while other companies don’t.
    - numpad0 3y ago
      Recalls are automotive equivalent of security updates. Testing catch bugs but not all of it, and while a bug-free software won't ever get a patch release in theory, in reality it means the software is not maintained.
    - 3y ago
radlad 3y ago
What does unapproved mean in this context? That it didn't pass by Musk's desk?
bitexploder 3y ago
I am generally mildly negative on many Tesla decisions, but this has happened to the big manufacturers as well. Stock floor mats that caused stuck accelerator. Toyotas infamous stuck accelerator code that actually hurt people. Their code was reputedly a giant mess.
- chollida1 3y ago
  If Telsa and the article are telling the truth then these aren't anywhere near the same. The mat was a design flaw from the beginning that missed QA, that happens in any large scale manufacturing as you can't just get everything right from the start. If the article is telling the truth, this was a change made on the build line that wasnt' approved, that's a huge f$ck up if true and an incredible show of incompetence if someone can just start making design changes without approval on the build line.
  - bitexploder 3y ago
    It’s better that a mat was designed in a dangerous way vs a production line mistake? That is similar to saying a simple bug is worse than an architectural flaw that no one caught at design time. Far more eyes are on the design flaw vs a production bug.
    - ziddoap 3y ago
      >vs a production line mistake? I think the point they are getting at, if I understand the commenter correctly (and assuming the wording of the article is accurate), is that someone on the line had the ability to make a change to the production process without authorization. That would not just be a "production line mistake", instead it is indicative of a serious policy and procedure failure. No single person on the production line should have the ability to make unauthorized changes to the procedures being used in production. I hate analogies, but to use yours, it is a rogue employee that was able to change critical code with no approval process -- and no one else noticed that code was being changed and went ahead with shipping it out.
jrmg 3y ago
An ‘unapproved change’ getting in to the process seems way worse to me than just the [‘approved’] production process having an unforeseen flaw that’s being corrected now it’s been found.
michaelt 3y ago
> someone on your own production line can introduce a new step to your truck manufacturing process that no one noticed? That's actually not unusual at all. It's perfectly common for an engineer to order that a hole be made in a given location on a given part without specifying that coolant should be used, or the spindle speed of the drill, or how the part should be held in the machine, or that the hole should be deburred. Manufacturing is skilled work.
- trust_bt_verify 3y ago
  Bespoke manufacturing and machining is where this kind of change would be introduced. Not in a flushed out design being produced on a line. It becomes an expensive mistake when these types of decisions are made this late in the process. Seems like they rushed the design in a number of places.
mimikatz 3y ago
This exact same thing was seen a Boeing, which isn't a model of good manufacturing, but it is semi-commmonplace for the line to have unapproved fixes. https://uk.news.yahoo.com/faa-found-staff-boeings-supplier-051910262.html?guccounter=1 https://uk.news.yahoo.com/faa-found-staff-boeings-supplier-0...
- xethos 3y ago
  If I may clarify: Unapproved here would typically mean engineering hasn't signed off. It does not mean engineering was asked and said "Hell no".
  - bombcar 3y ago
    And additionally, using dish soap to lubricate parts for assembly is standard procedure elsewhere in many industries. It's sometimes even recommended in the standard manuals as part of a repair procedure (I've had refrigerator gaskets that call out using a bit of soap on them before installation).
    - dns_snek 3y ago
      A crucial difference being that there's no risk of your refrigerator gasket sending a 3 tonne metal box into a crowd of people if it comes loose, unlike the gas pedal on a truck. Playing fast and loose with the processes surrounding something as important (and dangerous) as the gas pedal is recklessness of the highest order.
deleted 3y ago
[deleted]
bottlepalm 3y ago
Work instructions are kind of like programming - at ‘runtime’ you’ll find out all the different ways the technicians can misinterpret them, or ‘fill in the blanks’ for things you overlooked.
- forgetfreeman 3y ago
  And yet every other major auto manufacturer on the planet seems to avoid this problem, so clearly Tesla's missing something.
  - Workaccount2 3y ago
    This is so far off the mark that it must be sarcasm.
    - skellington 3y ago
      The hate is so deep that people lose their minds when it comes to a minor Tesla issue and conveniently forget the HUGE list of problems and recalls from all manufacturers over the years.
      - ripjaygn 3y ago
        In many cases they just don't know about them because they're not pushed so hard in the media and people don't upvote negative stories about other car manufacturers like they do with negative Tesla stories on HN and Reddit. It's very affective, that's why the oil lobby pushes negative EV news so hard in the media, especially right wing media.
      - forgetfreeman 3y ago
        That's a gross mis categorization and wildly reductionist to boot. The issue is this: a cult of personality has developed around a loudmouth sociopath with a track record of making wildly arrogant statements (See: I know more about manufacturing than anyone else on the planet) that are not, and never have been, backed by observational data. When Tesla set out to make cars they intentionally adopted the move fast and break shit approach, tossing over a century of industry knowledge overboard in the process. Net result: grotesque body fitment issues that are reminiscent of automobiles built in the 1920s, constant dumb software issues, trivially avoidable production bottlenecks, and borderline malicious marketing around half-baked assisted driving features (this list is incomplete). Then there is the comprehensive travesty Tesla calls a cybertruck. This much stupidity wouldn't be tolerated from any other auto manufacturer.
Workaccount2 3y ago
I work in manufacturing and sometimes stuff like this happens despite controls in place. You can get technicians/assemblers who just take it upon themselves to fix a problem rather than notifying anyone. To them it is no big deal (i.e. doesn't warrant mentioning to engineering), so it must be "no big deal".
- danielfoster 3y ago
  Pressure to perform?
  - ProllyInfamous 3y ago
    I would suspect more "get'r'dun".
  - Workaccount2 3y ago
    At least in the instances I have encountered, it came from a place of well meaning combined with overconfidence.
    - ncr100 3y ago
      Is "Irresponsibility" I feel -- without any true blame / shame though. Complex work is hard. Self-management is a big, under-appreciated part of that. So Irresponsibility maybe not on the individual Worker's shoulders, but on all of us for under-appreciating the risky challenges of being a motivated worker in a complex job. ? EDIT: here is the flaw https://www.tiktok.com/@el.chepito1985/video/7357758176504089898 https://www.tiktok.com/@el.chepito1985/video/735775817650408... yeah IDK if the Worker is to blame, seems like an obvious design flaw, e.g. they should not rely on 'soap' to keep a flat pedal cover attached to another flat pedal.
      - cogman10 3y ago
        I actually blame the engineering/design department for this one. The soap revealed the issue, but why aren't the peddles a single piece? Why do they have a sticker on them? Even without the soap step, what happens if the cabin gets too hot or the factory has too much dust in it? If you look at your car's peddles (and I'm including mine, a Tesla model 3) you'll notice they are basically a single piece mechanically fit together. Not some sticker glued for style.
ivix 3y ago
You have written this as if this doesn't routinely happen to every auto manufacturer. Why?
- chollida1 3y ago
  > You have written this as if this doesn't routinely happen to every auto manufacturer. Why? Does it? Which auto manufacturer's have had recalls due to unapproved changes made on the assembly line? I've seen design flaws force a recall but i'm not certain that unapproved change s on the assembly line is something that routinely happens.
  - ripjaygn 3y ago
    Do we have public post mortems for all the thousands of recalls over the years? For example, what happened with Toyota's wheels falling off a couple a years ago.
hn_throwaway_99 3y ago
I think Tesla has tons of problems, and I think the Cybertruck is a ghastly creation, and I think there have been many worse examples of QA problems at Tesla in the past (e.g. steering wheels falling off). But at this point, this just feels like piling on. "OMG, how can their processes be so immature that something like this happened?!?!" Nearly all new models have significant recalls, and I'm not surprised for a vehicle as soup-to-nuts different as the Cybertruck. These are incredibly complicated engineering processes, so it's always easy to point out one thing (out of potentially millions) and yell "How could this happen?!" I'm certainly not excusing Tesla for their overall QA issues, but at the same time this pearl clutching and what seems like undue attention every time there is a Tesla recall just seems over the top at this point.
bastawhiz 3y ago
> Because this looks like a very unprofessional error to have made for a company that has done well up until now. I can't tell if this is a serious comment, because in the past there have been many weird problems, like wood trim in Model Ys: https://www.thedrive.com/tech/36274/tesla-model-y-owners-find-cooling-system-cobbled-together-with-home-depot-grade-fake-wood https://www.thedrive.com/tech/36274/tesla-model-y-owners-fin... (and yes, I know it's not exactly the same, but it's certainly still very bad to be using home renovation materials in the face of part shortages)
- shepherdjerred 3y ago
  What's the problem with using trim? It doesn't seem like it'd have any impact at all, aside from being funny.
  - llamaimperative 3y ago
    Would you be okay with your child driving a car where critical systems were assembled with whatever ad-hoc materials were available in local home renovation stores?
    - _ea1k 3y ago
      Given that I've never heard of an issue with that particular part after years of extended use... Yes.
      - bastawhiz 3y ago
        Are you willing to bet the safety of your family on the efficacy of some wood trim that someone bought at Home Depot to meet their manufacturing quota just because none of them have spectacularly failed yet? Really?
        _ea1k 3y ago
        Given my knowledge of the part involved and the materials used, absolutely. I'd be doing it in the same way that I'm betting "the safety of [my] family on the efficacy" of the cheap little shim that I bought to make water bottles fit in the cup holders better. Despite the high language involved here, there is no risk. Although if you want to take up a career as a service advisor at a dealer, you might make good commissions from that style of rhetoric.
ChuckMcM 3y ago
I don't think it is an unprofessional error, there are many reasons that changes get introduced on the manufacturing line which benefit production speed and/or reduce errors. What they missed was the after action surveillance and analysis. In a different organization such a change would go in, and at the same time kick off an engineering investigation to verify that it doesn't make anything worse. If that analysis comes up clean, there is no change. If it finds a problem though, then the change is reverted/changed to something else. In regular car companies you see things like "We're recalling all cars between VINxxxx and VINyyyy" which basically delineate that time between when the change was made and the time the analysis suggesting it wasn't a good thing. If its a minor thing there won't be a recall, just a bit of extra "warranty work" at the next service opportunity which the dealer does.
- 11thEarlOfMar 3y ago
  Moreover, from what I've seen, this is an isolated manufacturing escape. Given the perspective of the rapid growth in capacity, with 3 factories coming online in 5 years and 2 million+ total capacity, wouldn't we expect to see more escapes, even from a top performing auto company?
  - JohnFen 3y ago
    If rapid expansion is resulting in an increase in defects, whatever the cause, then the expansion itself is far too rapid and needs to be considered a fault.
    - ChuckMcM 3y ago
      I'd agree with this. I was at Intel early on and as they expanded they were very careful about exactly replicating fabs because they didn't want an increase in defects. For most (all?) manufacturers bringing a new factory online that didn't produce exactly the same level of quality would be red flag to re-evaluate how they brought on new capacity.
    - valianteffort 3y ago
      Defects are inherent to anything involving human labor. You can't expect workers on 12hr shifts to have consistent high quality of throughput. It has nothing to do with expansion and more to do with people just getting lazy or negligent throughout the day.
Moto7451 3y ago
I’m not a Tesla-stan but I can give this one a “it could have happened to any manufacturer” explanation. Soap is a common method for getting rubber pads onto metal pedals in the aftermarket world. Dish soap dries out and becomes less slippery, unlike lithium grease or other options. It is possible it was carried over from an appropriate and approved installation method for top hinged pedals, where pressing down will push the rubber pad’s grove deeper into the metal shoe and not cause removal. For bottom hinged pedals, preferred for performance cars, I wouldn’t recommend that at all. One off possibility is that this is NUMI knowledge making its way to Tesla ownership. I don’t disagree with the takeaway though. If they were trying to Toyota Method/Six Sigma this assembly line properly, they’d have reviewed and approved the change as part of a periodic process and it wouldn’t have been “unapproved” and probably would not be the process they used. Adding to my “it could have happened to any manufacturer” my EV Porsche comes with a NEMA 14-50 plug/pigtale that was previously only approved for use in 16 Amp EVSEs. The wire says 16A only (10 or 12ga wire is in use). However, they kept using these on 40 amp capable EVSEs. Over the years many 14-50 outlets and these plugs have melted. Through that time Porsche blamed low quality outlets and recommended an industrial model, but the plugs then melted instead of the outlet. Only this year did they issue a recall. This is extremely similar to an issue that happened with Tesla’s EVSE plug adapters. Porsche managed to make the same exact mistake years later despite that being an easy situation to reference. https://static.nhtsa.gov/odi/rcl/2023/RCMN-23V841-8821.pdf https://static.nhtsa.gov/odi/rcl/2023/RCMN-23V841-8821.pdf https://www.tesla.com/support/adapter-recall https://www.tesla.com/support/adapter-recall
- _ea1k 3y ago
  > One off possibility is that this is NUMI knowledge making its way to Tesla ownership. Good point. While this was in Texas instead of there, it likely still applies. Given that this is early production, they were likely using some of their most experienced workers, possibly even as transfers from the other plant. It is easy to imagine them transferring an approach like this ("it was approved before") without realizing that the consequences might be different.
jacktribe 3y ago
The pedals are manufactured (and likely assembled with the pad) by a supplier in Canada, according to https://www.cybertruckownersclub.com/forum/threads/nhtsa-official-accelerator-pedal-recall-notice-unintended-acceleration-from-trapped-pedal-all-3-878-shipped-cybertrucks-recalled.14875/ https://www.cybertruckownersclub.com/forum/threads/nhtsa-off...
voidmain0001 3y ago
This reminds me of the supposed factory floor modification to include a battery heat sink on the Model Y. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24424567 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24424567
asddubs 3y ago
I'm kind of uneasy about this being possible at all. Obviously this is just because of the power of hindsight, but should things that can wedge the accelerator in full throttle position be using adhesive for fixation at all?
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
deleted 3y ago
[deleted]
Phanyxx 3y ago
I just took my car in and there were 4 active recalls to address (Hyundai). This is hardly unique to Tesla.
red-iron-pine 3y ago
> Because this looks like a very unprofessional error to have made for a company that has done well up until now. bro their QA has been garbage since day 1. they've gotten better but this isn't really a surprise.
misiti3780 3y ago
You're aware the other legacy manufactures have recalls all the time, right?
assimpleaspossi 3y ago
In the book about Elon Musk by Walter Isaacson, design engineers have their offices next to the manufacturing line. So they see and hear everything going on. It probably wasn't just "someone on the production line".
FredPret 3y ago
Manufacturing is super complex - employees and robots performing thousands of interconnected tasks, sometimes requiring a little bit of judgement, and never 100% supervised. Even a mature operation like Toyota and Ford can blunder.
- fuzzfactor 3y ago
  For me it was a situation where I've never heard of another case, so I guess highly anecdotal, but can see how it might have applied to millions of regular old Ford ICE cars that were on the road. At one end of the accelerator linkage is the "user interface" (gas pedal) and at the other end it's the entire V8 engine. Where the linkage connects directly to the throttle using optimized leverage and failure-mitigating springs that can overcome a number of foreseeable failure scenarios. Which had gradually been improved since the Model T and through the entire Space Age. Runaway acceleration wasn't a problem with the pedal. Engine was running properly too. And the linkage was perfect. Well the engine is heavy and is not bolted directly to the frame of the car, instead it uses motor mounts, which consist of a metal plate which bolts to the motor, and an opposite plate that bolts to the frame, separated by a thick hard rubber shock absorbing pad. Motor mounts are doing some of their isolation duty when you see an idling engine under the hood shimmying a little while the fenders and hood are nicely stationary. Anyway it took years to figure out because it happened so seldom, and the cause & effect were so widely separated in time, but one day while navigating a jeep trail the engine had bottomed out, and that must have been the time one of the motor mounts separated, while the engine was momentarily forced an inch or more away from its normal position. Nothing ever seemed any different, but every once in while when I would accelerate from a stop, the pedal would drop almost to the floor and it would really take off until I got my foot under the pedal and pulled it back. Turns out the torque was occasionally capable of twisting the engine in the direction away from the broken mount, enough to be pulling on the linkage, opening the throttle further, and resulting in more torque. Might have had something to do with the octane of the gasoline in use. I guess at either end of the linkage you want the rubber to be bonded to the metal a lot better than you might think at first.
traviswingo 3y ago
I picked up a car from a mechanic the other day and we got to riffing about my own Tesla. He admitted to having friends that worked at Tesla on the manufacturing line. In his own words, these guys are “complete idiots,” and “do shrooms before assembling cars.” I want to take his words with a grain of salt, but…I kinda believe it. Obviously hearsay means nothing, though.
- roflchoppa 3y ago
  I mean I don’t doubt that the some people working the assembly lines are getting a little messed-up before their shifts. Our classic mini from Australia has other production anomalies, you kinda just chock it up to the workers being a little drunk during its construction.
jameslevy 3y ago
"Show me the incentive, I'll show you the outcome". I do not know anything of the culture of Tesla and am not commenting on it specifically, and that quote could apply just as much to a company like Boeing. But at companies working on safety-critical products, the problems usually arise from employees acting in their own self interest to do what will get them rewarded for shipping on time, or to avoid punishment for causing delays.
dhosek 3y ago
“for a company that has done well up until now.” Haven’t there been widespread complaints about manufacturing defects (poorly-fit panels, unexpected braking, wheels falling off, suspensions collapsing, axles breaking). They tend to rank at or near the bottom in quality surveys. Alfa Romeo comes out ahead of them. Even before Elon Musk’s antics turned me off the idea of buying a Tesla, I held off the possibility of buying one because the price/quality proposition was not great.
cyanydeez 3y ago
Done well and avoided costly errors are not similies
SCM-Enthusiast 3y ago
This is problably some contract manufacturer that delivers the assembly.

htrp 3y ago

>How do you have so little quality control and insight into your manufacturing process that someone on your own production line can introduce a new step to your truck manufacturing process that no one noticed? That's legal covering the company. I'd bet this was just a general design flaw.

bitmasher9 3y ago
To me both sound plausible (that the process was added, and that it’s a fabricated story). Either way we will never know, and ultimately it’s Tesla’s responsibility to make sure the accelerator pedal doesn’t get suck in the on position due to manufacturing defects.
- smith7018 3y ago
  We’ll find out in discovery if a lawsuit around this ever happens, I suppose
chrisjj 3y ago
> That's legal covering the company. Er, how does it cover the company? Company is responsible regardless.

Ekaros 3y ago

[flagged]

scott_w 3y ago
It doesn’t seem to happen in other companies…
- bryanlarsen 3y ago
  Yes it does, it just doesn't make the news.
  - scott_w 3y ago
    I’m specifically referring to introducing steps into the manufacturing process with no oversight, which the (now flagged) post was saying Musk couldn’t foresee.
- brandonagr2 3y ago
  Not clear if you are being sarcastic or not, recalls are way more common in other brands, with Ford leading the charts on number of recalls. https://www.powernationtv.com/post/auto-brands-with-the-most-recalls-2023 https://www.powernationtv.com/post/auto-brands-with-the-most...
  - seventytwo 3y ago
    This is an area where recalls is a bad metric. It could be that a company with high rates of recalls is actually very good and just issues recalls for smaller things while other companies don’t.
  - numpad0 3y ago
    Recalls are automotive equivalent of security updates. Testing catch bugs but not all of it, and while a bug-free software won't ever get a patch release in theory, in reality it means the software is not maintained.
  - 3y ago

radlad 3y ago

What does unapproved mean in this context? That it didn't pass by Musk's desk?

bitexploder 3y ago

I am generally mildly negative on many Tesla decisions, but this has happened to the big manufacturers as well. Stock floor mats that caused stuck accelerator. Toyotas infamous stuck accelerator code that actually hurt people. Their code was reputedly a giant mess.

chollida1 3y ago
If Telsa and the article are telling the truth then these aren't anywhere near the same. The mat was a design flaw from the beginning that missed QA, that happens in any large scale manufacturing as you can't just get everything right from the start. If the article is telling the truth, this was a change made on the build line that wasnt' approved, that's a huge f$ck up if true and an incredible show of incompetence if someone can just start making design changes without approval on the build line.
- bitexploder 3y ago
  It’s better that a mat was designed in a dangerous way vs a production line mistake? That is similar to saying a simple bug is worse than an architectural flaw that no one caught at design time. Far more eyes are on the design flaw vs a production bug.
  - ziddoap 3y ago
    >vs a production line mistake? I think the point they are getting at, if I understand the commenter correctly (and assuming the wording of the article is accurate), is that someone on the line had the ability to make a change to the production process without authorization. That would not just be a "production line mistake", instead it is indicative of a serious policy and procedure failure. No single person on the production line should have the ability to make unauthorized changes to the procedures being used in production. I hate analogies, but to use yours, it is a rogue employee that was able to change critical code with no approval process -- and no one else noticed that code was being changed and went ahead with shipping it out.

jrmg 3y ago

An ‘unapproved change’ getting in to the process seems way worse to me than just the [‘approved’] production process having an unforeseen flaw that’s being corrected now it’s been found.

michaelt 3y ago

> someone on your own production line can introduce a new step to your truck manufacturing process that no one noticed? That's actually not unusual at all. It's perfectly common for an engineer to order that a hole be made in a given location on a given part without specifying that coolant should be used, or the spindle speed of the drill, or how the part should be held in the machine, or that the hole should be deburred. Manufacturing is skilled work.

trust_bt_verify 3y ago
Bespoke manufacturing and machining is where this kind of change would be introduced. Not in a flushed out design being produced on a line. It becomes an expensive mistake when these types of decisions are made this late in the process. Seems like they rushed the design in a number of places.

mimikatz 3y ago

This exact same thing was seen a Boeing, which isn't a model of good manufacturing, but it is semi-commmonplace for the line to have unapproved fixes. https://uk.news.yahoo.com/faa-found-staff-boeings-supplier-051910262.html?guccounter=1 https://uk.news.yahoo.com/faa-found-staff-boeings-supplier-0...

xethos 3y ago
If I may clarify: Unapproved here would typically mean engineering hasn't signed off. It does not mean engineering was asked and said "Hell no".
- bombcar 3y ago
  And additionally, using dish soap to lubricate parts for assembly is standard procedure elsewhere in many industries. It's sometimes even recommended in the standard manuals as part of a repair procedure (I've had refrigerator gaskets that call out using a bit of soap on them before installation).
  - dns_snek 3y ago
    A crucial difference being that there's no risk of your refrigerator gasket sending a 3 tonne metal box into a crowd of people if it comes loose, unlike the gas pedal on a truck. Playing fast and loose with the processes surrounding something as important (and dangerous) as the gas pedal is recklessness of the highest order.

deleted 3y ago

[deleted]

bottlepalm 3y ago

Work instructions are kind of like programming - at ‘runtime’ you’ll find out all the different ways the technicians can misinterpret them, or ‘fill in the blanks’ for things you overlooked.

forgetfreeman 3y ago
And yet every other major auto manufacturer on the planet seems to avoid this problem, so clearly Tesla's missing something.
- Workaccount2 3y ago
  This is so far off the mark that it must be sarcasm.
  - skellington 3y ago
    The hate is so deep that people lose their minds when it comes to a minor Tesla issue and conveniently forget the HUGE list of problems and recalls from all manufacturers over the years.
    - ripjaygn 3y ago
      In many cases they just don't know about them because they're not pushed so hard in the media and people don't upvote negative stories about other car manufacturers like they do with negative Tesla stories on HN and Reddit. It's very affective, that's why the oil lobby pushes negative EV news so hard in the media, especially right wing media.
    - forgetfreeman 3y ago
      That's a gross mis categorization and wildly reductionist to boot. The issue is this: a cult of personality has developed around a loudmouth sociopath with a track record of making wildly arrogant statements (See: I know more about manufacturing than anyone else on the planet) that are not, and never have been, backed by observational data. When Tesla set out to make cars they intentionally adopted the move fast and break shit approach, tossing over a century of industry knowledge overboard in the process. Net result: grotesque body fitment issues that are reminiscent of automobiles built in the 1920s, constant dumb software issues, trivially avoidable production bottlenecks, and borderline malicious marketing around half-baked assisted driving features (this list is incomplete). Then there is the comprehensive travesty Tesla calls a cybertruck. This much stupidity wouldn't be tolerated from any other auto manufacturer.

Workaccount2 3y ago

I work in manufacturing and sometimes stuff like this happens despite controls in place. You can get technicians/assemblers who just take it upon themselves to fix a problem rather than notifying anyone. To them it is no big deal (i.e. doesn't warrant mentioning to engineering), so it must be "no big deal".

danielfoster 3y ago
Pressure to perform?
- ProllyInfamous 3y ago
  I would suspect more "get'r'dun".
- Workaccount2 3y ago
  At least in the instances I have encountered, it came from a place of well meaning combined with overconfidence.
  - ncr100 3y ago
    Is "Irresponsibility" I feel -- without any true blame / shame though. Complex work is hard. Self-management is a big, under-appreciated part of that. So Irresponsibility maybe not on the individual Worker's shoulders, but on all of us for under-appreciating the risky challenges of being a motivated worker in a complex job. ? EDIT: here is the flaw https://www.tiktok.com/@el.chepito1985/video/7357758176504089898 https://www.tiktok.com/@el.chepito1985/video/735775817650408... yeah IDK if the Worker is to blame, seems like an obvious design flaw, e.g. they should not rely on 'soap' to keep a flat pedal cover attached to another flat pedal.
    - cogman10 3y ago
      I actually blame the engineering/design department for this one. The soap revealed the issue, but why aren't the peddles a single piece? Why do they have a sticker on them? Even without the soap step, what happens if the cabin gets too hot or the factory has too much dust in it? If you look at your car's peddles (and I'm including mine, a Tesla model 3) you'll notice they are basically a single piece mechanically fit together. Not some sticker glued for style.

ivix 3y ago

You have written this as if this doesn't routinely happen to every auto manufacturer. Why?

chollida1 3y ago
> You have written this as if this doesn't routinely happen to every auto manufacturer. Why? Does it? Which auto manufacturer's have had recalls due to unapproved changes made on the assembly line? I've seen design flaws force a recall but i'm not certain that unapproved change s on the assembly line is something that routinely happens.
- ripjaygn 3y ago
  Do we have public post mortems for all the thousands of recalls over the years? For example, what happened with Toyota's wheels falling off a couple a years ago.

hn_throwaway_99 3y ago

I think Tesla has tons of problems, and I think the Cybertruck is a ghastly creation, and I think there have been many worse examples of QA problems at Tesla in the past (e.g. steering wheels falling off). But at this point, this just feels like piling on. "OMG, how can their processes be so immature that something like this happened?!?!" Nearly all new models have significant recalls, and I'm not surprised for a vehicle as soup-to-nuts different as the Cybertruck. These are incredibly complicated engineering processes, so it's always easy to point out one thing (out of potentially millions) and yell "How could this happen?!" I'm certainly not excusing Tesla for their overall QA issues, but at the same time this pearl clutching and what seems like undue attention every time there is a Tesla recall just seems over the top at this point.

bastawhiz 3y ago

> Because this looks like a very unprofessional error to have made for a company that has done well up until now. I can't tell if this is a serious comment, because in the past there have been many weird problems, like wood trim in Model Ys: https://www.thedrive.com/tech/36274/tesla-model-y-owners-find-cooling-system-cobbled-together-with-home-depot-grade-fake-wood https://www.thedrive.com/tech/36274/tesla-model-y-owners-fin... (and yes, I know it's not exactly the same, but it's certainly still very bad to be using home renovation materials in the face of part shortages)

shepherdjerred 3y ago
What's the problem with using trim? It doesn't seem like it'd have any impact at all, aside from being funny.
- llamaimperative 3y ago
  Would you be okay with your child driving a car where critical systems were assembled with whatever ad-hoc materials were available in local home renovation stores?
  - _ea1k 3y ago
    Given that I've never heard of an issue with that particular part after years of extended use... Yes.
    - bastawhiz 3y ago
      Are you willing to bet the safety of your family on the efficacy of some wood trim that someone bought at Home Depot to meet their manufacturing quota just because none of them have spectacularly failed yet? Really?
      - _ea1k 3y ago
        Given my knowledge of the part involved and the materials used, absolutely. I'd be doing it in the same way that I'm betting "the safety of [my] family on the efficacy" of the cheap little shim that I bought to make water bottles fit in the cup holders better. Despite the high language involved here, there is no risk. Although if you want to take up a career as a service advisor at a dealer, you might make good commissions from that style of rhetoric.

ChuckMcM 3y ago

I don't think it is an unprofessional error, there are many reasons that changes get introduced on the manufacturing line which benefit production speed and/or reduce errors. What they missed was the after action surveillance and analysis. In a different organization such a change would go in, and at the same time kick off an engineering investigation to verify that it doesn't make anything worse. If that analysis comes up clean, there is no change. If it finds a problem though, then the change is reverted/changed to something else. In regular car companies you see things like "We're recalling all cars between VINxxxx and VINyyyy" which basically delineate that time between when the change was made and the time the analysis suggesting it wasn't a good thing. If its a minor thing there won't be a recall, just a bit of extra "warranty work" at the next service opportunity which the dealer does.

11thEarlOfMar 3y ago
Moreover, from what I've seen, this is an isolated manufacturing escape. Given the perspective of the rapid growth in capacity, with 3 factories coming online in 5 years and 2 million+ total capacity, wouldn't we expect to see more escapes, even from a top performing auto company?
- JohnFen 3y ago
  If rapid expansion is resulting in an increase in defects, whatever the cause, then the expansion itself is far too rapid and needs to be considered a fault.
  - ChuckMcM 3y ago
    I'd agree with this. I was at Intel early on and as they expanded they were very careful about exactly replicating fabs because they didn't want an increase in defects. For most (all?) manufacturers bringing a new factory online that didn't produce exactly the same level of quality would be red flag to re-evaluate how they brought on new capacity.
  - valianteffort 3y ago
    Defects are inherent to anything involving human labor. You can't expect workers on 12hr shifts to have consistent high quality of throughput. It has nothing to do with expansion and more to do with people just getting lazy or negligent throughout the day.

Moto7451 3y ago

I’m not a Tesla-stan but I can give this one a “it could have happened to any manufacturer” explanation. Soap is a common method for getting rubber pads onto metal pedals in the aftermarket world. Dish soap dries out and becomes less slippery, unlike lithium grease or other options. It is possible it was carried over from an appropriate and approved installation method for top hinged pedals, where pressing down will push the rubber pad’s grove deeper into the metal shoe and not cause removal. For bottom hinged pedals, preferred for performance cars, I wouldn’t recommend that at all. One off possibility is that this is NUMI knowledge making its way to Tesla ownership. I don’t disagree with the takeaway though. If they were trying to Toyota Method/Six Sigma this assembly line properly, they’d have reviewed and approved the change as part of a periodic process and it wouldn’t have been “unapproved” and probably would not be the process they used. Adding to my “it could have happened to any manufacturer” my EV Porsche comes with a NEMA 14-50 plug/pigtale that was previously only approved for use in 16 Amp EVSEs. The wire says 16A only (10 or 12ga wire is in use). However, they kept using these on 40 amp capable EVSEs. Over the years many 14-50 outlets and these plugs have melted. Through that time Porsche blamed low quality outlets and recommended an industrial model, but the plugs then melted instead of the outlet. Only this year did they issue a recall. This is extremely similar to an issue that happened with Tesla’s EVSE plug adapters. Porsche managed to make the same exact mistake years later despite that being an easy situation to reference. https://static.nhtsa.gov/odi/rcl/2023/RCMN-23V841-8821.pdf https://static.nhtsa.gov/odi/rcl/2023/RCMN-23V841-8821.pdf https://www.tesla.com/support/adapter-recall https://www.tesla.com/support/adapter-recall

_ea1k 3y ago
> One off possibility is that this is NUMI knowledge making its way to Tesla ownership. Good point. While this was in Texas instead of there, it likely still applies. Given that this is early production, they were likely using some of their most experienced workers, possibly even as transfers from the other plant. It is easy to imagine them transferring an approach like this ("it was approved before") without realizing that the consequences might be different.

jacktribe 3y ago

The pedals are manufactured (and likely assembled with the pad) by a supplier in Canada, according to https://www.cybertruckownersclub.com/forum/threads/nhtsa-official-accelerator-pedal-recall-notice-unintended-acceleration-from-trapped-pedal-all-3-878-shipped-cybertrucks-recalled.14875/ https://www.cybertruckownersclub.com/forum/threads/nhtsa-off...

voidmain0001 3y ago

This reminds me of the supposed factory floor modification to include a battery heat sink on the Model Y. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24424567 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24424567

asddubs 3y ago

I'm kind of uneasy about this being possible at all. Obviously this is just because of the power of hindsight, but should things that can wedge the accelerator in full throttle position be using adhesive for fixation at all?

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Phanyxx 3y ago

I just took my car in and there were 4 active recalls to address (Hyundai). This is hardly unique to Tesla.

red-iron-pine 3y ago

> Because this looks like a very unprofessional error to have made for a company that has done well up until now. bro their QA has been garbage since day 1. they've gotten better but this isn't really a surprise.

misiti3780 3y ago

You're aware the other legacy manufactures have recalls all the time, right?

assimpleaspossi 3y ago

In the book about Elon Musk by Walter Isaacson, design engineers have their offices next to the manufacturing line. So they see and hear everything going on. It probably wasn't just "someone on the production line".

FredPret 3y ago

Manufacturing is super complex - employees and robots performing thousands of interconnected tasks, sometimes requiring a little bit of judgement, and never 100% supervised. Even a mature operation like Toyota and Ford can blunder.

fuzzfactor 3y ago
For me it was a situation where I've never heard of another case, so I guess highly anecdotal, but can see how it might have applied to millions of regular old Ford ICE cars that were on the road. At one end of the accelerator linkage is the "user interface" (gas pedal) and at the other end it's the entire V8 engine. Where the linkage connects directly to the throttle using optimized leverage and failure-mitigating springs that can overcome a number of foreseeable failure scenarios. Which had gradually been improved since the Model T and through the entire Space Age. Runaway acceleration wasn't a problem with the pedal. Engine was running properly too. And the linkage was perfect. Well the engine is heavy and is not bolted directly to the frame of the car, instead it uses motor mounts, which consist of a metal plate which bolts to the motor, and an opposite plate that bolts to the frame, separated by a thick hard rubber shock absorbing pad. Motor mounts are doing some of their isolation duty when you see an idling engine under the hood shimmying a little while the fenders and hood are nicely stationary. Anyway it took years to figure out because it happened so seldom, and the cause & effect were so widely separated in time, but one day while navigating a jeep trail the engine had bottomed out, and that must have been the time one of the motor mounts separated, while the engine was momentarily forced an inch or more away from its normal position. Nothing ever seemed any different, but every once in while when I would accelerate from a stop, the pedal would drop almost to the floor and it would really take off until I got my foot under the pedal and pulled it back. Turns out the torque was occasionally capable of twisting the engine in the direction away from the broken mount, enough to be pulling on the linkage, opening the throttle further, and resulting in more torque. Might have had something to do with the octane of the gasoline in use. I guess at either end of the linkage you want the rubber to be bonded to the metal a lot better than you might think at first.

traviswingo 3y ago

I picked up a car from a mechanic the other day and we got to riffing about my own Tesla. He admitted to having friends that worked at Tesla on the manufacturing line. In his own words, these guys are “complete idiots,” and “do shrooms before assembling cars.” I want to take his words with a grain of salt, but…I kinda believe it. Obviously hearsay means nothing, though.

roflchoppa 3y ago
I mean I don’t doubt that the some people working the assembly lines are getting a little messed-up before their shifts. Our classic mini from Australia has other production anomalies, you kinda just chock it up to the workers being a little drunk during its construction.

jameslevy 3y ago

"Show me the incentive, I'll show you the outcome". I do not know anything of the culture of Tesla and am not commenting on it specifically, and that quote could apply just as much to a company like Boeing. But at companies working on safety-critical products, the problems usually arise from employees acting in their own self interest to do what will get them rewarded for shipping on time, or to avoid punishment for causing delays.

dhosek 3y ago

“for a company that has done well up until now.” Haven’t there been widespread complaints about manufacturing defects (poorly-fit panels, unexpected braking, wheels falling off, suspensions collapsing, axles breaking). They tend to rank at or near the bottom in quality surveys. Alfa Romeo comes out ahead of them. Even before Elon Musk’s antics turned me off the idea of buying a Tesla, I held off the possibility of buying one because the price/quality proposition was not great.

cyanydeez 3y ago

Done well and avoided costly errors are not similies

SCM-Enthusiast 3y ago

This is problably some contract manufacturer that delivers the assembly.