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Epic says Apple will reinstate developer account
- larodi 3y agoI, for once, love living in the EU
- mmastrac 3y ago"for one" or "for once"?
- UberFly 3y agoFinally. One thing they can truely appreciate.
- recursive 3y agoTruely or truly?
- geodel 3y agoI think they meant once. Besides digital lollipops what else is going so great in EU? jobs? economic growth? housing? immigration?
- davedx 3y agoQuality of life, work-life balance, good schools, good transport, lots of consumer protections, human rights & rights for minorities, 70 years of peace. Economic growth isn't great but could be a lot worse if I look at the rest of the world. Energy transition for sure has some huge challenges but again, we're doing pretty great compared to other places in the world. Housing is an issue, but where isn't housing an issue?
- Muromec 3y ago>70 years of peace. Which 70 years?
- Seanambers 3y agoThe 70 years the US paid for of course :)
- azmodeus 3y agoI think Europe paid for it with interest, see the huge US government debt financed by printing petrol dollars After the gold standard everyone except the US has been paying for it
- VladTheImpalor 3y agoYes? Housing is infinitely better than the US, job security can be better, work life balance is better, cities are nicer to look at, architecture is better, people are more active, fitter, have lives beyond work. The bread is better, so is the cheese. There is real food available. Public transport is plentiful. Society feels a bit less polarised. The EU is infinitely better than living in the states. At least for this third world immigrant.
- fnordpiglet 3y agoInteresting. I thought housing in the EU has been a challenge for generations with home ownership a difficult to impossible goal for most people, with this being the case across the region. In the US the housing affordability issue is in a few highly desirable urban areas, but not being generally case across the country. I think the bread in the US, sans the supermarket stuff, is generally exceptional with bakeries throughout most cities that are top notch. Some of the best creameries in the world are in the US now. Beer is also generally more innovative and better. There is also a much broader food community in that I can eat food from every culture on earth with pretty high quality in every city. Europe tends to be much less diverse and less creative in its foods. However, yes, if you only eat fast food and shop at big box grocery stores (which also exist in Europe) staples are pretty low quality. The US has a very strong and thriving food movement, and isn’t a strict monoculture by geography. There are layers upon layers of cultures intertwined throughout the country. Generically “American culture” is essentially a marketing regime for large companies selling their stuff. But the reality of America is much more complex than that, and that’s accelerated since the 1950’s, and was completely broken down in the 1990’s. Most of the polarization stems from that destruction of the American monoculture belief system and a reaction against that. It’s the last gasp of people who see a way of thinking falling apart. But what comes out of that cultural change is excellent bread, cheese, beer, etc.
- snowpid 3y ago" But the reality of America is much more complex than that, and that’s accelerated since the 1950’s, and was completely broken down in the 1990’s. " You complain a lack of seing the complexity of American food but instead you have a simple view of the European cultures. Have you been ever in any European country and when? I have the feeling you havent been.
- matwood 3y agoAs someone who recently bought a house in the EU, IMO the best place to make money is the US. But, the best place to spend it is the EU. Much like doing the location/CoL arbitrage in the US, it's even better if you can get higher end US salaries and do a quality of life arbitrage to the EU.
- 7moritz7 3y agoThe EU is on a roll politically, it's much more agile and expertise-focused than most governments. Also he ceiling is a lot higher than in the US given that half of the EU is underdeveloped. Look at Estonia's potential for example, Bolt is the fastest growing transportation company globally.
- Aloisius 3y agoThere's a ceiling?
- 7moritz7 3y agoThere is, it's called workforce. Incase you need an example, TSMC recently pushed back its fab plans in the US by atleast a year because they couldn't find enough specialists.
- Aloisius 3y agoEconomic growth can come from productivity gains without any material change in workforce. TSMC's delays have to do with not offering enough pay not a lack of people capable of installing wafer fab tools or building electrical or mechanical systems for fabs.
- mullingitover 3y agoIf you can't have successful tech giants, you can have principles. If Apple/Meta/Alphabet were European companies the EU regulators would have absolutely no scruples about these things. Every country talks 'free trade!' out of one side of their mouth, and implements protectionism via various concerns about health/safety/fairness out of the other when it's expedient. The US isn't any different, it's just not tech companies we're worried about (except some clock app that the Gen Z kids are obsessed with).
- oven9342 3y agoI wish my government had hired developers to create useful Linux tools, they gave money to nextcloud instead of paying tribute to Microsoft. But guess who pays the best bribes?
- Aldo_MX 3y agoThe US used to have huge oil or railroad companies, but also scruples to regulate them when they grew too big.
- dantheman 3y agoYou mean how the US regulated them out of business after giving them huge subsidies?
- Aldo_MX 3y agoNo, I was talking about 100 years ago.
- mullingitover 3y agoI really don't think the oil and railroad monopolies were broken up for the benefit of consumers, or due to some high-minded principles. They were broken up at the behest of other domestic industries which they were strangling, and those industries had the political clout to take on the monopolies. Arguably the same thing happened with the AT&T monopoly.
- 3y ago
- holmesworcester 3y agoThe US came very close to passing similar legislation recently and it still could. This bill had bipartisan support. Apple was able to kill it using relationships with leadership, but the votes were there. My organization Fight for the Future worked on lobbying for this, and while it's super difficult to pass legislation over big company opposition, it's not impossible. We can have similar rules in the US if we keep pushing. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Open_App_Markets_Act https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Open_App_Markets_Act
- archagon 3y agoIs it dead? I see nothing to that effect in the article.
- kmeisthax 3y agoAll legislation not voted on dies at the end of each Congress.
- genter 3y ago> Democrat Dianne Feinstein expressed concern that the legislation would disproportionately impact Apple and Google How did I know that she was the one opposing it? I'm not glad she's dead, but I am glad she isn't on the Senate any more.
- dang 3y agoWe detached this subthread from https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=39644788 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=39644788.
- sharpshadow 3y agoI kind of expected that they wouldn’t push through with that silly ban.
- ajross 3y agoThis is just so weird to watch. Apple is literally throwing a tantrum on a continent-wide stage. Like, it's one attempt at escalation after another, and they keep losing (either their legal fights, or their nerve) and having to reverse course. Like, there's no strategy at all here? Just keep swinging and hope you land a blow that breaks through the armor? This is how my 15 year old plays VR games.
- TillE 3y agoThat's the confusing part. With the DMA policy at least there's a strategy, even if it's a strategy that will ultimately be rejected as non-compliant. Picking these petty fights or whining about getting fined is not helpful, certainly not to Apple and their shareholders. It's hard not to conclude that Apple leadership is making stupid emotional decisions rather than rational ones, which is especially dumb when you're running a trillion dollar company.
- notaustinpowers 3y agoI don't think there is a strategy, this is all theater so he has some pushback if investors file complaints or lawsuits during the next quarterly results meeting. They can't say that Tim Cook didn't do everything in his power to make them even *more* money. Since, ultimately, his duty as a CEO is to prioritize the financial wealth of shareholders. If he just complied with the EU then he'd be voted out by the board by the end of the week. Is he going overboard? I think so. But I've also never owned a $2T+ company with investors and an entire government breathing down my neck.
- iamthirsty 3y agoFrom DF a few days ago[0] : > The termination of Epic Games Sweden AB’s Apple developer account was communicated in a letter from Mark Perry, a lawyer representing Apple, to Epic’s lawyers: > Mr. Sweeney’s response to that request was wholly insufficient and not credible. It boiled down to an unsupported “trust us.” History shows, however, that Epic is verifiably untrustworthy, hence the request for meaningful commitments. And the minimal assurances in Mr. Sweeney’s curt response were swiftly undercut by a litany of public attacks on Apple’s policies, compliance plan, and business model. As just one example: https://x.com/TimSweeneyEpic/status/1762243725533532587?s=20 https://x.com/TimSweeneyEpic/status/1762243725533532587?s=20. Maybe Tim sent more than a two sentence reply to Phil to get it straightened out. It's anyone's guess at this point. — [0]: https://daringfireball.net/2024/03/apple_epic_developer_account https://daringfireball.net/2024/03/apple_epic_developer_acco...
- gglnx 3y agoMore likely that the request for more information on this case from the EU commission to Apple triggered the walk back. At least the EU Commissioner for the internal market is happy about the reverse: https://twitter.com/ThierryBreton/status/1766167580497117464 https://twitter.com/ThierryBreton/status/1766167580497117464
- darzu 3y agoYikes I hate that Thierry is using "#freefortnite". You can be completely on board with the DMA but still see Epic's behavior as entirely profit motivated and "freeing Fortnite" should not be any official's priority. Epic is not some oppressed minority that needs saving.
- lapcat 3y ago> You can be completely on board with the DMA but still see Epic's behavior as entirely profit motivated and "freeing Fortnite" should not be any official's priority. The Digital Markets Act is all about profit-motivated businesses. It regulates markets, not charities. It's not anti-profit at all, just pro-competition, and Apple was attempting to stifle competition.
- retskrad 3y agoTim Cook managed to be cool calm and diplomatic when dealing with Trump and his trade war with China. Why is Tim Cook suddenly acting irrational and child-like when dealing with EU? This behaviour we're seeing from Apple recently is happening in front on investors and everyone else's eyes because Tim Cook is personally green-lighting this behaviour. What's going on inside Apple? Is it because none of their hardware is growing anymore and they don't have an AI strategy to offset their stock which is currently in free fall and is about to be bypassesed by nVidia?
- deleted 3y ago[deleted]
- miga 3y agoEU trust watchdog is less trusting than FTC. While Mr Perry prefers to parry words before a material blow lands, Mr Cook naturally avoids cooking an antitrust case.
- maipen 3y agoAside from their spectacular laptops with arm, they seem like they are being left behind. Vision Pro is probably a gimmick along with the whole VR world right now, which will change soon too but overall I don't see anything exciting about apple. Their pricing is infuriating and so are their decisions (laptop 8gb ram in 2024???) To me it looks like they got stuck in the "this is what worked for us, so let's only do this" mentality and take no risks. They stand on the shoulders of giants and most importantly on their cultural presence...
- rudedogg 3y agoI’m a mac user at home, and I don’t get their AI story/path now that they’re not supporting AMD/Nvidia GPUs since the Apple Silicon transition. Maybe they’ll manage to get LLMs running well locally with the new low-bit developments? Not my area. But for training/learning it seems like Apple is DOA. They have the same problem as AMD, no one is doing research with their hardware or software. Intentionally shipping low RAM/unified memory quantities seems short sighted too. Maybe with a 16GB baseline they could do something special with local LLMs.
- hardlianotion 3y agoThat didn’t take long.
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- saagarjha 3y agoI find it amusing when Apple says they vet their developers and block those they don’t trust when you can’t even trust for them to not go through your public comments and bring it up against you.
- etchalon 3y agoYou find it amusing that Apple vets their developers by … vetting their developers?
- saagarjha 3y agoBy going through their public comments where they complain about what Apple is doing? Sounds like a poor way to vet developers.
- dwaite 3y agoThis is hardly out of the blue. Epic's CEO testified how they not only premeditated breaking their contract with Apple, but arranged a PR campaign around it and orchestrated a 'grass roots' effort at the same time. Blocking Fortnite updates on iOS devices was an inconvenience for users compared to terminating the use of an entire gaming marketplace due to the next round of vigilante contract violation by Epic.
- saagarjha 3y agoOk, but it's not like breaking a contract like this is unheard of. Apple did literally the same thing to Qualcomm, for example, back when they decided they didn't want to pay money for modems. "You said some bad words about us and decided that you didn't like the contract" is literally business. Companies are not people that you are doing a personal affront to.
- DinaCoder99 3y agoVetting them for what? How much abuse they can take?
- apazzolini 3y agoGetting pretty huge clown face painting meme vibes.
- jajko 3y agoA childish move, unexpected from such a company like apple especially with timing. Which probably boils down to one overzealous middle/higher manager trying too hard to be a good boi for superiors to get extra bonus... I don't think it panned as expected. Otherwise apple corporate culture is quite rotten.
- lapcat 3y agoThe Epic blog post shows emails with Phil Schiller and Craig Federighi. This was all approved by upper management.
- maxwell 3y agoThose are the two that seem like pure poison.
- 0cf8612b2e1e 3y agoThere is no way such a decision was not approved by the upper echelon of management. That has both legal ramifications and monetary for a huge client.
- littlestymaar 3y ago> A childish move, unexpected from such a company like apple especially with timing. Especially when you add the failed PWA move before, they're starting to look pretty bad.
- ssnri 3y agoI just like nice computers and don’t really care about the inter-corporate mudslinging. Now not paying an equal share of tax, on the other hand, is criticism I can join in on.
- anonymouse008 3y agoNot trying to start a flame war, I'm asking this earnestly. Where does this command over hardware (USB-C mandate), software (sideloading/AppStore), and prices (recent 2bn decision) end?
- justinclift 3y agoPersonally, I've like to get the old audio jack socket added back to iPhones and laptops. Maybe that's just me though. ;)
- layer8 3y agoWhere smartphones end effectively being a public utility, is my guess.
- koolba 3y agoYou want to sell in their house, you gotta play by their rules. It’s that simple.
- HacklesRaised 3y agoIf only it were that simple!! Isn't the central problem that you're not allowed to sell in anybody elses house. I mean, if you're prepared to accept that you are leasing the device and that the lease will dictate what you can add can't do with the device, then I think your position holds, otherwise, it's a little tenuous.
- jprete 3y agoI interpreted the parent comment as referring to the EU's house and rules?
- deleted 3y ago[deleted]
- pmontra 3y agoTheir house is in part in the EU so they have to play by the rules of the EU there, or remove that part of the house.
- etchalon 3y agoPlease stop picking stupid fights, Apple. You keep losing them.
- resource_waste 3y ago[dead]
- throwaway118899 3y ago[flagged]
- mmastrac 3y agoHow is this EU policy frivolous? Clearly there is 1) anti-competitive behaviour and 2) actual harms from Apple's actions. On top of that, their record for Apple:EU battles is what? N:0?
- throwaway118899 3y agoAnti competitive behavior? Over an App Store that’s only important because of the success of their phones. Phones that people don’t need to buy because there are alternatives? Miss me with actual harms being done. Edit: Of course your anti-Apple bias shows and you downvote anything going against the circle jerk
- smoldesu 3y ago> Miss me with actual harms being done. I'm pretty sure a middle-schooler could understand the EU Commission's reasoning here: https://ec.europa.eu/commission/presscorner/api/image/content/2024_apple-music_infographic_en.jpg https://ec.europa.eu/commission/presscorner/api/image/conten... You might disagree, but this is an Apple-specific behavior that does demonstrable harm to the market and consumers. Apple was flippant towards Dutch regulators when they were being investigated over this, and that negligence earned them scrutiny on a much larger stage. The further Apple doubles-down, the more legislative artillery the EU will dedicate to stopping them; this reversal on Epic's account is evidence that Apple doesn't see light at the end of their tunnel, they're not building a defensible case.
- beejiu 3y agoWhat's the catch? (Given they tried to destroy PWAs in their last tantrum.)
- TheRealPomax 3y agoNo catch, just the threat of "and if you keep trying to violate EU law, we're going to keep levying billion dollar fines on you until you either obey the law, or you cease all operations in Europe. Which will get you sued some more because you're still on the hook for support after you leave"
- Kon-Peki 3y ago> “Following conversations with Epic, they have committed to follow the rules, including our DMA policies. As a result, Epic Sweden AB has been permitted to re-sign the developer agreement and accepted into the Apple Developer Program.” It's more like the EC told both sides to get some adults in the room and work it out. Since they clearly didn't force Apple to change any rules and Epic agreed to follow Apple's rules, I have no idea where all this chest-beating is coming from. Apple is still winning and the EC is still feckless.
- arlcode 3y agoThe EC heavily hinted at swift enforcement and it's most likely that Apple retreated after that. So technically they "worked it out" but only after a "parent" threatened to send them to bed without dinner.
- Hamuko 3y agoThey'll try harder to find an excuse next time.
- littlestymaar 3y agoGiven that the EU is now making laws that are purposely designed to target them specifically, good luck with that.
- Animats 3y agoWell, that was quick.
- marcinzm 3y ago> And the minimal assurances in Mr. Sweeney’s curt response were swiftly undercut by a litany of public attacks on Apple’s policies, compliance plan, and business model. So according to Apple [edit] one isn't allowed to say bad things about a company publicly or they are allowed to ban your account? Interesting view.
- iamthirsty 3y ago> So according to DF I don't really think that's according to DF, more so Apple.
- terhechte 3y agoAt least in the U.S. business owners have the right to refuse service or turn away a customer to protect their patrons and business. That's the issue with all these providers. Every couple of weeks there's a story from someone whose Google account was suddenly closed with no way to access their emails or pictures again.
- usr1106 3y agoYes, and that's why monopolies must die, in practice desolved by governments. Once you buy a smartphone today you and everybody who wants to do further business with you are at the mercy of a monopolist. For Apple 100%, for Google only 98% because you could side-load. But not a secure and practical solution today.
- astlouis44 3y agoAmazing how fast this decision was reversed. It's truly awesome to see regulators standing up to walled gardens. This will greatly benefit both developers and consumers.
- dkjaudyeqooe 3y agoThis is one of those things where there is only upside for everyone involved. Apple (and Google) need to be saved from themselves sometimes. Meanwhile the repeated reversals are making Apple look guilty and nefarious.
- deleted 3y ago[deleted]
- toneyG 3y agoApple and Google are for-profit corporations. Im sure they would protest that they don't need saving
- throwaway14356 3y agoI want an iphone but if they want to end the industry i cant buy one
- holmesworcester 3y ago[flagged]
- Aldo_MX 3y agoThen buy 51% of shares, do a hostile takeover and stop their anti-competitive madness before it is too late. You don't need to do radical changes, just small actions like do not steal the tips students send to teachers. Going full-goblin mode and demanding 30% of all the money that moves through a phone is what is destroying Apple.
- 3y ago
- zer00eyz 3y ago[flagged]
- Aaargh20318 3y agoNow they can release Fortnite on iPhone using their own in-app payment system without any of those pesky parental controls.
- dylan604 3y agoYeah, the fact that Epic is the one makes it really hard to care. They really need a better standard bearer. It's kind of like watching ManU play Chelsea. I'd be really happy if both teams could lose.
- rchaud 3y agoEvery company benefits from not being beholden to the App Store and Apple's sales tax. I couldn't care less that Epic is not a perfect messenger, as long as Apple gets the message.
- dylan604 3y agoYou call it a sales tax which is not the correct term, so I have an issue seeing your side of it. I see it as someone selling a product in someone else's store. Normal people would call that retail/wholesale pricing in ways that's actually more beneficial to the seller than the retailer in the App Store. Negotiate a 30% rate in negotiating with WalMart/Target/BestBuy, and I'll call you the best negotiator to ever walk the planet.
- zimpenfish 3y ago> like watching ManU play Chelsea. I'd be really happy if both teams could lose. Given the way both teams are playing this season, I wouldn't be surprised if they managed that.
- jsheard 3y agoAre you under the impression that lootboxes aren't allowed on the official App Store? Because they absolutely are, I would wager that a significant chunk of Apples store revenue comes from games with faux-gambling mechanics. Genshin Impact alone has made billions of dollars on mobile through gacha monetization and Apple has no objections to that strategy as long as they get their cut.
- dang 3y agoRecent and related: Apple terminates Epic Games developer account, calling it a 'threat' to iOS - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=39618673 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=39618673 - March 2024 (980 comments)
- gigel82 3y agoSo I guess regulation is good after all... perhaps we can get some traction with that in US?
- criddell 3y agoI think it's too early to draw any conclusions. It's going to take some time before you can definitely say if consumers are better off.
- internetter 3y agoJust out of curiosity, in your eyes, how could this regulation not be good for consumers?
- criddell 3y agoDifferent people have different things they are worried about. I’m personally concerned about Chrome’s dominance and I think iOS not allowing alternative browsers is the only thing holding back Chromium’s total victory. I know some here would welcome a single browser target, but I personally think it concentrates too much power with Google. Privacy is a related concern. I think it’s only going to take one killer app to really launch an alternative App Store. A few years ago when Fortnite was super popular, Fortnite fans would have installed an Epic store in a heart beat if it meant they could play Fortnite. Once an alternative App Store has significant power, I think they are going to be able to start eroding some of the iOS privacy guarantees. That will be done in the name of consumer interest - things are cheaper here because we can give you better, targeted ads! - but in the long run I don’t think teenagers getting some special Fortnite loot is in their best interests if it means tighter surveillance. I could also see school districts and/or testing organizations require installations of super invasive anti-cheating apps. There have already been cases of school districts getting caught spying on kids with school issued laptop webcams. In the end, Apple’s stubbornness and greed brought this on. If they would have been more reasonable, I think both the company and their users would be a lot better off.
- 3y ago
- h_tbob 3y agoI hope they can learn to love each other. Makes me so upset when developers and business people can't figure out how to solve this outside of court.
- sircastor 3y agoEpic and Apple famously had a close relationship. A few years back, Epic was onstage at every Apple keynote. They were showing off games on iOS on macOS, talking about API development. I understand why Tim Sweeney felt like they were getting ripped off, but it seemed like they had a strong relationship. I wonder if something happened behind the scenes.
- andy_ppp 3y agoI’m so tired of this Apple tax, I think nobody would be this annoyed if Apple were saying 10% or something around that. 30% is more than most companies pay in tax on profits and this is a tax on revenue. I don’t think abusing your market position like some kind of protection racket should be allowed and if you don’t like it we’ll delete your App is quite frankly just as bad as the mafia smashing in shop windows. I doubt anyone will stop them but we can hope…
- grishka 3y agoIf only it was just about the money. The review process itself is beyond ridiculous sometimes, and sometimes has you remove things from your apps that you want and your users want, but Apple doesn't like.
- throwaway118899 3y ago[flagged]
- jncfhnb 3y agoIf you say this then you’ll surely also be fine to just not use other app stores if you don’t want them. Right? Just don’t use them!
- throwaway118899 3y ago[flagged]
- jncfhnb 3y agoIt actually gives me great joy to imagine this. And, bro, “status quo” is literally a form of bias, not reasoning
- throwaway118899 3y ago[flagged]
- drooopy 3y agoJust yesterday they were a "threat" to iOS or whatever.
- readyplayernull 3y ago"Yes" because we value our users' safety, and "No" because we value our users' safety. And they just toss one of their billions of coins.
- Invictus0 3y agoSurely Apple's legal team counseled them against closing the account in the first place. Now that the EU commission made an inquiry, the execs folded?
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- jncfhnb 3y agoApple’s behavior largely makes sense given what a huge share of their profits their racketeering of customer access earns them. If you ever wanted to see regulation pains as the cost of doing business, this is it. But banning epic was just pathetic baby behavior. I hope epic launches the epic game store for iOS and its dogshit but cheaper and the gacha gravy boats all jump ship
- ineedaj0b 3y ago[flagged]
- airstrike 3y agous?
- jncfhnb 3y agoThose are prison walls, mate.
- burnerthrow008 3y agoNot if they keep you out
- wolfendin 3y agoWhy does Epic get the privilege to force me to buy things through their store?
- deleted 3y ago[deleted]
- marticode 3y agoHow would they force you to buy anything? If you don't want to use their store, then don't install it?
- 3y ago
- 2OEH8eoCRo0 3y agoPlayed their card too soon. They want to take it back so they can play it again in the future.
- w4 3y agoBetween this and the PWA decision, Apple seems to be flailing. What is leadership doing?
- corytheboyd 3y agoRight? They make so much money, what’s the deal. Seems like they let the MBAs take over. I get that not all money they make is liquid, but a rounding error to Apple would be enough money to change someone’s life.
- newZWhoDis 3y agoEngineers who do not actively purge bean counters from their orgs will end up being ruled by them.
- Eikon 3y agoWhat was the deal with PWAs?
- lilyball 3y agoEU rules say Apple can't prioritize their own browser. PWAs only work with WebKit due to the iOS security model, and the amount of work necessary to try to support PWAs with third-party browser engines securely was way out of scope for the time frame to support the DMA. Because Apple can't prioritize their own browser, they had to remove PWA support entirely in the EU. Naturally there was a lot of backlash, and so Apple reversed their decision and will continue to support PWAs with WebKit in the EU. This suggests that perhaps the European Commission told Apple that it was okay to do this as it does seem to violate the "don't prioritize your own browser" rule, but as of the last I saw on this it was still unclear.
- PlutoIsAPlanet 3y agoI don't really see it as prioritising your own browser. It's a system level feature and uses the system provided web engine. Microsoft doesn't let you swap out EdgeHTML or Trident for applications that use the native OS web frame. But apps shouldn't be forced to use that web frame is the issue the commission had and the DMA attempts to resolve.
- kraig911 3y agoThe joke, what do you have when you have a group of lawyers up to their necks in dog shit? Not enough dog shit... It's just so insane how fast lawyers can bring the image, will and industry at large to it's knees. I think Apple's legal team should really take a hint (and a hit) from all of us in this industry. You're hurting Apple and the entire dev community more than you're helping.
- EMIRELADERO 3y agoIt's entirely possible that Apple's legal team advised the executives of this outcome and more generally the risks involved with the Epic ban move, but were ignored as a strategic decision.
- kjkjadksj 3y agoI doubt its had any impact at all to iphone sales or their service subscriptions.
- j_maffe 3y agoTheir stock took a major hit.
- turquoisevar 3y agoWhat are you on about? Today they were in the green and on the day this played out, March 6, the needle barely moved. The dip started 2 days prior on March 4, the day the EC announced their ~$2B fine based on TFEU, which has nothing to do with the DMA. One the appeal is filed it’ll go back up, as it’s already almost back to before that news. And then a week later when Cook farts, it’ll dip again. Such is the nature of stocks, at least on the short term. On the long term, 1Y and up, it’s solidly in the green. Not to mention that stock prices and revenue (which is what they’re talking about) are two separate things.
- dwaite 3y ago
- DueDilligence 3y ago[dead]
- dev1ycan 3y ago[flagged]
- quitit 3y agoApple's statement: “Following conversations with Epic, they have committed to follow the rules, including our DMA policies. As a result, Epic Sweden AB has been permitted to re-sign the developer agreement and accepted into the Apple Developer Program.” If you think the EU got their shit together in 2 days, you're day dreaming. Phil Schiller invited Epic to make assurances that they'd follow the terms of the agreement. Epic did. The EU didn't even have their shoes on. You can safely ignore Tim Sweeney's twitter chest beating - it's marketing.
- j_maffe 3y agoAll sides are marketing and trying to maintain an image. It's up to you to figure out what's actually happening without bias.
- quitit 3y agoEpic led with an ad campaign while Apple stayed silent. Then did it again by publishing their correspondence with Apple. Tell me more.
- j_maffe 3y agoYes, Epic "led". So what? Of course the one in the favorable position would like to minimize talk about anything that would disrupt the position.
- mizzao 3y agoNice, make 'em find other ways to make money than rent-seeking.
- barrystaes 3y agoI wont even play it probably, but i look forward to buy that game via the Epic Banana store just to vote with my wallet.
- EastSmith 3y agoI have not played Fortnite in years, but I am buying the new battle pass.
- hackernewds 3y agofrom a practical sense this is insignificant, unless collectively organized
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- stephc_int13 3y agoWhat a bunch of clowns! Seriously, Apple? Are they so full of hubris that they could not see how their haste would backfire? Given the compensation level of their legal team I’d expect that they could see it coming and spare the public humiliation and brand damage. I can’t believe this is real.
- andersa 3y agoMaybe they've finally realized that the $38 billion fine for failing to comply was in fact not a joke. The stock dumped 10% almost immediately after the announcement, might also have something to do with it.
- stephc_int13 3y agoLike any mafia bosses in Scorcese movies, they fail to see when they lost hand. I’d love to see the faces of Cook and Schiller at this point.
- montagg 3y agoOne of the worst gaming user experiences on Windows is how every publisher wants their own store. And depending on where you get a game, it may or may not have certain features. And if you get into modding, sometimes one version of the game just won't work with some mods. I understand everyone feels good about increased competition with Apple—and hopefully it turns out well for users—but iOS is hurtling toward the same situation that exists on Windows, and I think the iOS experience is worse for it. It's definitely worse with the browser nag. So I don't call this a total win. It's a theoretical win, but I foresee it being about as much of a win as cookie banners are, when it comes to the actual, practical, day-to-day experience people have using this technology.
- 8note 3y agoIt's a much better experience on windows to not be stuck with a windows store. Third party stores like steam are way better
- nozzlegear 3y agoImagine if we had to download the Windows Store on iOS just to get Outlook, Word or Excel though. That's what the OP is predicting.
- FuturisticGoo 3y agoAnd yet that never happens on Android. All of the major players use Google play store because regular consumers aren't gonna install another app store just to use some apps.
- nozzlegear 3y agoClearly Epic thinks they'll do it. Different ecosystem, who knows?
- tymscar 3y agoSadly this comparison is very misleading. Steam was a thing for a decade before the windows store and it has been basically the default. The more game stores that appeared over time the worse it has been for the gamers.
- seam_carver 3y agoPlease just let me get Infinity Blade back.
- camdenlock 3y agoVery depressing to see y’all cheering when the state gains more power. We should cheer when the state is kept in check. You have the choice to buy a Samsung phone instead of an Apple phone; most people don’t have the choice to switch governments.
- hu3 3y agoI'd rather trust a democratic state than a greedy company, directed by a few individuals, who's sole goal is to maximize profit.
- albert180 3y agoNot everyone is a Libertarian. Some had a nice childhood or brain cells and recognize the difference between a dictatorship and a government working in their favor to protect them from big duopols disrupting competition
- jeppester 3y agoAt least it is now completely obvious that Apple is "verifiably untrustworthy" as a gatekeeper for third party stores.
- Eric_WVGG 3y agoIt really hurts to watch Apple shoot themselves in the foot like this. A time will come when Apple will have legitimate reasons to crack down on third-party app stores. Someone like Meta will invariably try some crap like sneaking VPNs into their apps so they can get complete surveillance on their users (ex. https://techcrunch.com/2019/01/29/facebook-project-atlas/ https://techcrunch.com/2019/01/29/facebook-project-atlas/). Apple is going to have less credibility when they say "no, this is wrong" when this eventually happens if they keep screwing with Epic like this.
- jeppester 3y agoTracking users without their consent is wrong and also forbidden in at least the EU. Instead of letting Apple make and enforce the rules, we should have laws in place that hold App Stores accountable for what they are selling, just like physical stores.
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- summerlight 3y agoIt feels like the initial ban decision was driven by some high level exec (probably Phil Schiller)? If it was happened to be reviewed carefully by lawyers and public relations, they cannot really ban Epic so quickly. There are too many uncertainties and if you do something wrong, that puts government relations at huge risk. Typical employees cannot be held accountable for such decisions, not even low tier VP.
- mulmen 3y agoIf a VP is "low tier" then isn't calling them a VP at all just title inflation? At what point is a person responsible for the consequences of their actions regardless of intent?
- RetpolineDrama 3y agoA large company has a ton of VPs. They're really not that special at scale, VPs don't fly private etc.
- summerlight 3y ago> If a VP is "low tier" then isn't calling them a VP at all just title inflation? Apple is a big company and they have more than 100 VPs. This naturally creates "tier" between them, since a single CEO cannot manage all of them. > At what point is a person responsible for the consequences of their actions regardless of intent? It depends, but when it's something like fighting back against one of the most powerful supranational government entity like EU, the most senior leadership as well as the board must be involved. Not even Tim Cook cannot decide it alone and they clearly didn't want to escalate this matter to that level so quickly pulled it back.
- Antrikshy 3y agoIt’s not uncommon for VP to be a lower level exec title at massive companies like Apple. They’re not low tier by any stretch compared to most employees. They’re still high level leaders.
- yalok 3y agoyou have to give it to the guy - he continued coding even after loosing in the court and having to read tons of legal papers - Sept 10, 2021: Lost a court case, climbed a mountain, read hundreds of pages of legal papers, wrote some code. Just as determined as ever to fight on until there is genuine developer and consumer freedom in software, and fair competition in each mobile platform software component. https://x.com/TimSweeneyEpic/status/1436583527290654720?s=20 https://x.com/TimSweeneyEpic/status/1436583527290654720?s=20
- deleted 3y ago[deleted]
- mulmen 3y agoApple believes this is an existential threat and they are fighting against it as hard as they can. But is this a self-fulfilling prophecy? These actions come with a cost. This gives Epic visibility and it harms trust in Apple’s brand. How do they balance these costs against the perceived threat?
- miohtama 3y agoThey balance with the arrogance of Cupertino.
- freedomben 3y agoDoes it harm trust in Apple's brand? From what I can gather, people who already love and trust Apple want them to do this. They view the status quo as better, and would likely lose trust if Apple didn't fight this as much as possible.
- mulmen 3y agoI love my Apple products. I think the walled garden improves my experience on the device. I do want Apple to exert control over the platform. But I also believe they are fallible and the app store is anti-competitive. I think some competition in the browser and app store space on iOS would be good for everyone, including Apple. They need to be humbled occasionally. I definitely think less of Apple based on their actions here. It shows they care more about exerting control than their users, regardless of how they have justified their actions to themselves.
- freedomben 3y agoInteresting, thank you. That seems an extremely reasonable position to me Definitely don't feel obligated to answer, but may I ask what country or region you're from? And if you do any ios or Mac development?
- mulmen 3y agoI live in Seattle, WA. I use a MacBook professionally as a data engineer but I do not develop anything for the Mac or iOS ecosystems.
- imadierich 3y ago[dead]
- turquoisevar 3y agoAll parties involved want to flex their muscles and most here argue based on how impressed they are by the flexes displayed. Apple wants to show that they can’t be brought to their knees. Epic wants to show that they can get away with shit. The EU wants to show that they have teeth and are to be feared. In the meantime, the only organization with the actual final say, the CJEU, is off forgotten in these debates and is currently warming up to accept and adjudicate Apple’s appeal for the ~$2B fine based on art. 102 TFEU. Apple and Epic are private parties, and the EC is just an executive body. The CJEU in this is analogous to SCOTUS. The best we can do as bystanders in the meantime is asses on existing principles whose flexing actually has some power behind it. Epic’s contract with Apple was terminated prior to all this. The US courts have their blessing for this. Epic tried to get unbanned, most notably after changes in Korea, and Apple said they weren’t interested. Now Epic pulled a stunt and was stupid enough to publish the emails. Based on the time and date of those emails and their public announcement that they “got their dev account back,” we can surmise that Epic just created a new account with the information of their newly erected Swedish entity. This process is 99% automated. Afterward, they emailed Apple. Not to get permission to return but to state that they are back. That’s when the ball started rolling. To enter into a valid contract, there needs to be mutual assent. Leaving nuance by the wayside, that means that both parties needed to actually want to enter into a contract with one another. In the US, this used to be measured against a subjective standard but later shifted to an objective standard that boils down to whether a reasonable person would consider it an acceptance of an offer. In the EU, it’s still a subjective standard where intent to enter a contract is essential. All of this is to say that if push comes to shove, no court, especially not a European one, is going to consider Epic simply creating a new account when Apple has made it clear time and time again that they don’t want to do business with them, to be sufficient for forming a valid legal agreement. Without a valid legal agreement, the status quo prior to this event is leading. This being a situation in which Apple and Epic don’t have an agreement. The DMA doesn’t have provisions that would force parties to enter into an agreement and force them to do business with each other. This is because it wouldn’t be able to withstand adjudication by the CJEU but also because the EU would never want to open Pandora’s box like that. The implications of that would be quite literally beyond comprehension. So if there’s no valid contract and the EU doesn’t have the power to force one, ask yourself whose flexing is merely a flex and whose flexing is backed by the power of the CJEU? Who’s doing who a favor here? We know at least of one party that they consistently go out of their way to make a point, even when the underlying issue they use as motivation is already moot. The point being made is that their teeth are truly sharp. So why not use those teeth in this instance and chomp into the flesh. Are we to believe that they’ve lost their appetite for their favorite meal? Right as their latest pet project has gone into effect no less? After being embarrassed by their prey who was able to convince the courts to reach into their mouth and reveal that those teeth are not as sharp as they’ve been made out to be almost a decade ago? An embarrassment that they’re still trying to undo in court at this very moment? If someone who was so shamelessly neutered had the actual power to draw blood by chomping down into the flesh, would it be likely they’d rather growl? I don’t think so.
- geniium 3y agoThis is better than many novel
- thinking_monkey 3y agoGranted, the real reasons they refused to reinstate the account may not have been because of the unflattering tweets. Maybe it really wasn't. But Apple definitely goofed when they said that was one of the reasons. +1 for developers and consumers, -1 for Apple.
- Brian_K_White 3y agoClown car. They were a threat yesterday, but they're not a threat today? They weren't a threat yesterday either but, what, an automated process or a rogue intern wrote those pr statements? You leave the keys to those accounts just lying around for any flunky to post from like that? There is no non-clown-car way to explain it away.
- dwaite 3y agoWe won't know, because just one side is releasing selective communications as part of their PR. There was communication before Apple approved Epic's Swedish subsidiary to get an account, and there could very well have been other omitted communication as part of this exchange and after as part of the resolution.
- ftyhbhyjnjk 3y agoThis is super great. Apple had it coming for years now. Fck the monopoly.
- magicloop 3y agoWhat has happened here is all about the personalities involved, not a business strategy, not a legal strategy. It is "Forming, Storming, Norming, ... " (Tuckman's stages of group development) Forming = setting up the technical and business solution for DMA Storming = arguing due to the newly experienced dynamics of power/control Norming = CEO stepping in the get a resolved balance in what to do next Phil Schiller would have been the point man on the business solution (you can hear his tone of voice in the News communications and now see his private messaging as released by Sweeney). The regulator involvement would have gone via the CEO route, who would have had to resolve the conflict with his deputised point man (Phil). Companies are just collections of people. Maybe they share world view or a values system, but they are still just people. So human psychology is a relevant (and I argue the most significant) factor coming into play here. If there was a market logic, I think it would be that they'd prefer the alternative marketplace provider be someone like Amazon, and then have Fortnite be an app in that store. So the commercial disputes then are deflected away from Apple/Epic animosity. The original business case for 3G wireless networking was "Girls-Games-Gambling". The business case for alternative app marketplaces is a similar content argument "Games-Gambling&Crypto-Porn". Maybe this is part of what is keeping Meta/Amazon/Google away. Those folks can swallow a Core Tech Fee (although would be a significant friction point for sure). I think the fundamental root problem here is EC are trying to lower prices to businesses by attempting to foster competition which might lower prices. But the actual solution is to directly mandate lower prices, and keep the gatekeepers with their current control points and systems. In other words, consider App Store commissions as actual Taxes. And we know from history that "taxes without representation" lead to revolution.
- stefanlindbohm 3y agoThere might be parallells with group development research or terms used, but neither Tuckman’s stages, the research it’s based on, or later research in the area apply outside of the internal dynamics of individual working groups.
- boredpeter 3y ago[dead]