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Journalist casualties in the Israel-Gaza war

449 points by Qem 3y ago

rendall 3y ago
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- knewspeak 3y ago
  Though it's certainly sensible to question the accuracy of the numbers, considering Israel is making it impossible for anyone besides Hamas to verify those numbers and considering that the Netanyahu gov has actively given aid, comfort, and power to Hamas to crush any rival in Gaza [0][1], this then is also true: Israel currently has no standing to dispute those numbers. >Any article or media organization that does not point this out instantly loses credibility. by that logic, any article or media organization that fails to point out the information in the references below also instantly loses credibility. [0] https://www.timesofisrael.com/for-years-netanyahu-propped-up-hamas-now-its-blown-up-in-our-faces/ https://www.timesofisrael.com/for-years-netanyahu-propped-up... [1] https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/netanyahu-israel-gaza-hamas-1.7010035 https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/netanyahu-israel-gaza-hamas...
  - rendall 3y ago
    Tell me more about this. _Israel is making it impossible for anyone besides Hamas to verify those numbers..._ Is Israel preventing journalists from entering Gaza? If so, how does this reconcile with the OP article?
- shprd 3y ago
  > meaning they are certainly inflated Do you have even a glimpse of evidance? or are we speculating now? They deaths are published by full name and national number. Regardless, the masscare is ongoing and the exact number doesn't change anything. It's not like there's a certain threshold they aimed for. It's disgusting that your first response to reading 30,000 people were killed was to speculate and try to undertone it.
- nasso_dev 3y ago
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- LAC-Tech 3y ago
  Let's be generous and take Israeli estimates: 10,000 civilians, excluding Hamas fighters. The initial militant attack took 253 people hostage. As reprehensible as that is, it's not worth 10,000 civilian deaths.
  - rendall 3y ago
    You would be correct were the war about retaliation. It is not retaliation. It is a military operation. It is a military operation to remove an implacable enemy who deliberately positions military hardware such as rocket launchers in and around civilians and civilian infrastructure. This is an enemy who would kill more than 30,000 Israeli citizens if it could. Hamas would kill every single Israeli if it acquired the weapons to do so. We know this because they frequently fire rockets at civilian targets. They are doing so even now as you read this. Hamas would kill every single Israeli even if it meant killing thousands of Palestinians. We know this is true because Hamas leadership has been saying this for decades. Further, when you compare civilian casualties to other wars, even other wars in neighboring countries, the casualty rate is extremely low.
    - GordonS 3y ago
      > This is an enemy who would kill more than 10,000 if it could And yet, it's Israel that has killed 30-50k... so far. > who deliberately positions military hardware such as rocket launchers in and around civilians and civilian infrastructure Gaza is a very dense, urban area, so it's kind of unavoidable. And you know as well as I do that these "rockets" are barely more than overgrown fireworks - they are mostly symbolic. That said, I do feel like Hamas are fools for continuing to fire them - I understand they need to resist blockade, occupation and dehumanisation, but I just can't see how this could possibly help. > We know this is true because Hamas leadership has been saying this for decades Except, thats not really true, is it? Hamas have been openly saying for several years now that they have no beef with people of the Jewish faith, they just want their homes back.
      - rendall 3y ago
        > 30-50k... so far... ... according to Hamas.
- GordonS 3y ago
  No, this is propaganda - every MSM outlets appends that biased "disclaimer" to every story they run on Gaza. Do they append "according to US-backed Israel" when parroting Israeli propaganda verbatim? No. And still, the UN says the Hamas' numbers are realistic, and the Lancet says they are realistic[0]. Meanwhile, some parts of the IDF claim every death of a military-age male was the death of a "terrorist". [0] https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6736(23)02713-7/fulltext https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6...
  - rendall 3y ago
    You could address the accusation directly rather than diverting with labels of "bias" and "propaganda". Tell us all how Hamas, as an incorruptible bastion of truth and honor, has neither incentive nor opportunity to inflate civilian deaths.
Qem 3y ago
Archived: http://web.archive.org/web/20240303014749/https://pressgazette.co.uk/news/gaza-journalists-targeted-spyware/ http://web.archive.org/web/20240303014749/https://pressgazet... > Around 10% of Gaza's journalists have been killed versus 2.5% of healthcare workers. These figures are insane! The number of journalists killed crossed the threshold where Gaza journalists can be declared officially decimated, according to the historical definition of the term as 1/10 killed[1]. I noticed if we plot the journalist killings against general population killings in Gaza, the graph deviates from an approximately straight line that might be expected if journalists were merely being killed as a result of "collateral damage" amidst indiscriminated bombings, and I got nerd sniped[2] by the question: Do data give any clues Israel purposefully targets journalists, beyond the large values[3]? After spending some days grappling with it, I think the shape of data supports it, as displayed here: Graph: https://imgur.com/a/SWNSYOn https://imgur.com/a/SWNSYOn Journalist killing data: https://pastebin.com/S1ykpSMR https://pastebin.com/S1ykpSMR (from https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_journalists_killed_in_the_Israel%E2%80%93Hamas_war https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_journalists_killed_in_...) General population killing data: https://pastebin.com/EGq6cgH8 https://pastebin.com/EGq6cgH8 (from https://www.ochaopt.org/ https://www.ochaopt.org/) Discussion: Looking at the plot of the ratio of journalists killed by israeli forces over all killed, it appears to be slightly decreasing over time instead of keeping constant. My working hypothesis is, as journalists are dispoportionally targeted, their numbers get comparatively depleted over time, making slightly harder to kill more journalists. This can be modelled as an urn problem[4], when each ball colour has different odds of being drawn, in addition to being present in different numbers. But instead of black/white balls, we have people, and instead of being drawn out from an urn, they are drawn out of life, by being shot at[5], shelled, bombed, run over by bulldozers[6], et cetera. The urn problem with different weights on each color can be modeled by a noncentral hypergeometric distribution[7], either Wallenius' noncentral hypergeometric distribution[8], for the case where balls are sampled one by one in such a way that there is competition between the balls, or Fisher's noncentral hypergeometric distribution[9], for the case where the balls are sampled simultaneously or independently of each other. There's some disagreement on published numbers of killed journalists. For example, the Comitee to Protect Journalists counts around 90 jornalists killed[10]. The Euro-Med Monitor over 130[11]. I'm not sure about the causes of this disagreement, but I suspect is due to who is counted as journalist, only people that actualy write reports and give face and voice to established news sources, or also their supporting crews (camera men, fixers, drivers...) and freelancers. In doubt I used data extracted from a table given by wikipedia[12], that is closer to the more conservative estimate given by CPJ and lists individual names and sources. The pattern of journalists killed each day in the dataset (1, 3, 1, 3, 1, 1, 2, 1, 1, 2, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 5, 1, 1, 1, 2, 2, 2, 1, 1, 2, 1, 2, 6, 1, 2, 1, 2, 1, 2, 1, 4, 2, 1, 3, 1, 1, 2, 1, 1, 1, 3, 2, 1, 2, 2, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1) indicates they're taken down mostly one at a time, and even large individual massacres, like the recent flour bag massacre[13], kills less than 1/10000 of the total population from Gaza Strip each, so Wallenius' distribution should approximate it better. In fact, it appears it is more likely for journalists to be killed together with their families at home than together with other journalists doing fieldwork, as we can infer by reading the entries in the description field of the table. For the figures on the whole strip, I collected daily reports published in the site of United Nations Office for the Coordination of Humanitarian Affairs (OCHA), and scraped some barcharts[14]. 1/3 (continues)
slipperybeluga 3y ago
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- deleted 3y ago
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blurbleblurble 3y ago
I appreciate that this is on here and I hope we can collectively handle it. Tech isn't isolated from this situation, as difficult as it is to admit and talk about with civility and care. A US military software engineer even self immolated recently in protest of what's happening. I don't see what's happening in Gaza as being culturally particular to the specific identity groups involved here. It's a very human situation and we are all at risk of falling into these kinds of collective behaviors.
- McNutty 3y ago
  Strongly disagree. This platform for tech news should not become a place for political posts, nor even for posting regular news headlines. Yes we know that reddit sucks but stop trying to make hn into reddit. Also the community can't handle it, just look at the handful of comments we already have here.
  - dang 3y ago
    HN's standard about this question has been stable for many years: some stories with political overlap are both inevitable and in keeping with the mandate of the site. The question, when it comes to the biggest political topics, is which stories clear that bar. I've posted about this many times, including quite a few explanations specific to the current topic: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=39435324 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=39435324 (Feb 2024) https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=39435024 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=39435024 (Feb 2024) https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=39237176 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=39237176 (Feb 2024) https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38947003 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38947003 (Jan 2024) https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38749162 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38749162 (Dec 2023) https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38657829 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38657829 (Dec 2023) https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38657527 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38657527 (Dec 2023) Here are links to lots of past explanations I've given about the principles we use to decide these questions more generally: https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&query=by%3Adang%20major%20ongoing%20topic&sort=byDate&type=comment https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&que... https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=false&sort=byDate&type=comment&query=%22significant%20new%20information%22%20by%3Adang https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=false&so... https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=false&sort=byDate&type=comment&query=political%20overlap%20by:dang https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=false&so...
jmac01 3y ago
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Jiro 3y ago
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- yunwal 3y ago
  It’s also very hard to be neutral to indiscriminate bombing of civilians in plain sight
  - Jiro 3y ago
    Is your theory that Hamas allows journalists free reign to report on anything in Gaza no matter how unflattering, without shooting the reporters who do so, just so that when Israel bombs the journalists will report the bombing? I doubt that.
    - g-b-r 3y ago
      SURE it really seems in Hamas best interest to shoot the few journalists present... And it's Hamas that's preventing international journalists to enter... They're terrorists but not stupid
      - highmastdon 3y ago
        Really? I think they’re terrorists AND stupid. Why else would they use funds from charity to build tunnels? Why else wouldn’t they build a local economy instead of investing in the daily rain of rockets on their neighbours? Why else would they launch a horrific attack against civilians at a “love and peace” festival next to the Gaza Strip in a country that’s a military powerhouse? Other than complete delusion, it’s because they’re stupid… OR they don’t care about the well-being of their citizens and value the death of their opponents more than the live of their own
        yunwal 3y ago
        > Why else wouldn’t they build a local economy instead of investing in the daily rain of rockets on their neighbours? Seriously? If you’re trying to build an economy, one of the first things you’d want to do is establish free trade with other countries. If you can’t do that your economic prospects are basically zero.
ciconia 3y ago
> Around 10% of Gaza's journalists have been killed versus 2.5% of healthcare workers. One possible explanation is that journalists have a much higher probability of being close to where the fighting is, than healthcare workers.
- g-b-r 3y ago
  That healthcare workers comparison does indeed not make much sense, it should be healthcare workers involved in retrieving the injured, which are indeed at very high risk (even though theoretically they shouldn't be targeted)
- simpletone 3y ago
  10% would be considered an extremely high death rate for soldiers involved in the fighting. Even 2.5% for healthcare workers is ridiculously high. Would be interesting to see what the death rates for journalists, medics, soldiers, etc was in afghan war, iraq war, vietnam war, etc. I highly doubt any reaches 10%.
  - JumpCrisscross 3y ago
    > 10% would be considered an extremely high death rate for soldiers involved in the fighting. Even 2.5% for healthcare workers is ridiculously high. Hamas based their operations where conventional rules of war prohibit fire. That makes comparing casualty rates incredibly difficult. (To my knowledge, nobody else has done this so comprehensively. Though given its success, I expect it to be emulated. Which unfortunately means prohibitions on bombing hospitals, schools and places of worship are now obsolete.)
    - licebmi__at__ 3y ago
      >Though given its success, I expect it to be emulated. I'm wondering by what metric do you define success.
      - hersko 3y ago
g-b-r 3y ago
Besides the statistics I advise anyone to also look at the reports of how the individual deaths happened, I've seen them very little discussed in western media. There's often enough evidence to show an extremely likely deliberate killing (usually with weapons that Hamas doesn't have). Journalists have been killed outside of the Gaza strip as well. Just make your own informed opinion. Furthermore, there have been so few western journalists on the ground because Israel (and Egypt) prevented them from entering, I think this prohibition alone should be considered unacceptable in the 21 century
- JumpCrisscross 3y ago
  > evidence to show an extremely likely deliberate killing Do you have examples?
  - g-b-r 3y ago
    https://cpj.org/2024/03/journalist-casualties-in-the-israel-gaza-conflict https://cpj.org/2024/03/journalist-casualties-in-the-israel-... is a good independent source to get started (see also https://cpj.org/2024/03/attacks-arrests-threats-censorship-the-high-risks-of-reporting-the-israel-hamas-war https://cpj.org/2024/03/attacks-arrests-threats-censorship-t...)
    - bkirkby 3y ago
      there appears to be no effort by cpj to determine if the journalists were killed by palestinians or israelis. is that accurate?
      - blast 3y ago
        All the examples I looked at say killed by Israeli airstrike or Israeli sniper.
- loceng 3y ago
  It's also worth seeing if there's a historical pattern of behaviour: "One Martyr Down: The Untold Story Of A Canadian Peacekeeper Killed At War" - https://legionmagazine.com/one-martyr-down-the-untold-story-of-a-canadian-peacekeeper-killed-at-war/ https://legionmagazine.com/one-martyr-down-the-untold-story-... A Canadian Army Major Paeta Hess-von Kruedener was assassinated after the IDF "accidentally" bombed a United Nations post that he was posted at - soon after he reported war crimes that he witnessed the IDF doing.
moshun 3y ago
For context, a total of 69 journalists were killed in WWII, 63 in the Vietnam war both of which lasted several years. As of today March 6th 2024, the Gaza invasion has left 86 journalists dead in less than 4 months. That is an amazingly high percentage for the expected mean in a conflict. Sources: https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/interactive/2024/israel-gaza-war-journalists-killed-cpj/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/interactive/2024/israel... https://www.icij.org/inside-icij/2024/02/over-75-of-all-journalists-killed-in-2023-died-in-gaza-war-per-cpj/ https://www.icij.org/inside-icij/2024/02/over-75-of-all-jour... https://www.nytimes.com/2006/05/30/world/middleeast/30embed.html https://www.nytimes.com/2006/05/30/world/middleeast/30embed....
- boringg 3y ago
  That may be true but a couple things have changed since those very dated sample points. (1) Definition of journalist (2) quantity of journalists (3) willingness to be on the very front lines in order to get better stories (4) technology enabling journalists thus being able to be more dangerous spots. (5) speculation -> journalists who are using press credentials as cover I'm neither way on the conflict but want to correct some of your arguments assumptions that lead your conclusion astray.
  - henry2023 3y ago
    Are we seeing the same percentage of journalists killed by the Russian army in Ukraine?
    - boringg 3y ago
      Totally different war structure.
      - ethanbond 3y ago
        The onus of protecting journalists (and medical workers) falls on the military regardless of how difficult the war they’re trying to prosecute is. How many journalists did the US kill in 20 years of OEF/OIF?
transformi 3y ago
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- Gabriel54 3y ago
  Suppose I am a country at war with the United States. Do I have the right to kill every American journalist? Also, it is not clear what "working in Hamas" means since they formed the government of the Gaza strip, so people "working in Hamas" would include all public officials, civil servants, etc. Does Israel have the right to kill all the sanitation workers of the Gaza strip since they also "work in Hamas"?
  - jncfhnb 3y ago
    The rules of war are completely out the door when one side routinely pretends to be civilian, which is a war crime. Which is not to say it’s just to go committing whichever crimes you want, but discussing legal rights is largely pointless because it is immediately a lawless war.
    - eeeehhh 3y ago
      No, one side of a conflict cannot ignore the rules simply because the other side does. It also seems an especially poor argument when one side is a nuclear-armed, highly modern military power and the other a lighltly armed militia.
      - jncfhnb 3y ago
        Not ignore, no. But the bar for holding one accountable for collateral damage changes. Considering, for example, the staggering scale of tunnels that have been built to funnel military supplies through civilians areas; clearing operations to destroy these areas entirely feels defensible. When a hospital is used as an arms hub, it is incredibly complex and costly to try and seize it by encirclement and small arms siege versus just blowing it up. This is a very difficult situation.
        3y ago
hmmmcurious1 3y ago
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- Workaccount2 3y ago
  All Hamas has to do is issue uniforms for fighters. Israel would probably even voluntarily foot the cost. But Hamas won't do it because of how much leverage civilians getting killed gets them.
  - g-b-r 3y ago
    Or stop living in normal apartments and move to dedicated bomb-here Hamas barracks?
  - g-b-r 3y ago
    And, it must be so hard to tell if a Palestinian with a rifle is of Hamas (or another fighting group), or a civilian...
    - nsguy 3y ago
      You can see videos with the pattern of "civilians" grabbing an RPG, firing it, and dropping it. One minute they're civilians, the next 2 they're not, then they're civilians again. They don't have rifles when they're doing this.
  - kurthr 3y ago
    https://www.haaretz.com/opinion/2024-02-04/ty-article-opinion/.premium/11-500-children-have-been-killed-in-gaza-horror-of-this-scale-has-no-explanation/0000018d-6fe9-d4f1-a18d-fff9c4010000 https://www.haaretz.com/opinion/2024-02-04/ty-article-opinio...
    - deleted 3y ago
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    - henry2023 3y ago
      I don’t know why so many people defend the Israel genocide. Everyone I meet offline including Israel born Jews are accusing their own government of genocide.
feedforward 3y ago
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- mcgeez 3y ago
  [Citation needed]
  - gkfasdfasdf 3y ago
    > Numerous members of Al-Dahdouh's family have been killed by the Israeli military during the Israel–Hamas war. His wife, seven-year old daughter, and 15-year old son were killed in an Israeli airstrike on the Nuseirat refugee camp on 28 October 2023, in addition to eight of his other relatives. On 15 December 2023, while Al-Dahdouh and his cameraman Samer Abu Daqqa were covering the Haifa School airstrike in Khan Yunis, they were hit by an Israeli missile, injuring Dahdouh and fatally wounding Abu Daqqa. Despite the death of many family members and his injury, he quickly returned to reporting on the war after both incidents.[3] His son, journalist Hamza al-Dahdouh, was killed by an Israeli airstrike in Khan Younis on 7 January 2024,[4] and two of his nephews were killed in an airstrike the following day.[5] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wael_Al-Dahdouh https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wael_Al-Dahdouh
  - ryanwhitney 3y ago
    Is there irrefutable proof of it in the current conflict? Unless something leaks from the IDF, we'll never know. But there are well-respected news orgs and NGOs identifying patterns of it. “CPJ is deeply alarmed by the pattern of journalists in Gaza reporting receiving threats, and subsequently, their family members being killed,” said CPJ Middle East and North Africa Program Coordinator Sherif Mansour. “The killing of the family members of journalists in Gaza is making it almost impossible for the journalists to continue reporting, as the risk now extends beyond them also to include their beloved ones.” https://cpj.org/2023/12/father-of-al-jazeeras-anas-al-sharif-killed-in-gaza-after-journalist-receives-threats/ https://cpj.org/2023/12/father-of-al-jazeeras-anas-al-sharif... And Reuters: https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/gaza-strikes-kill-family-members-journalist-targeted-by-death-threats-2023-11-20/ https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/gaza-strikes-kill-...
squarefoot 3y ago
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ryanwhitney 3y ago
Noting that Israel already had a history of killing well-identified journalists outside of direct conflict; and lying about it: https://forensic-architecture.org/investigation/shireen-abu-akleh-the-targeted-killing-of-a-journalist https://forensic-architecture.org/investigation/shireen-abu-... Here's a wider review from the Committee to Protect Journalists that predates the current conflict: https://cpj.org/reports/2023/05/deadly-pattern-20-journalists-died-by-israeli-military-fire-in-22-years-no-one-has-been-held-accountable/ https://cpj.org/reports/2023/05/deadly-pattern-20-journalist...
- CommanderData 3y ago
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xyzelement 3y ago
Actually reading this article shows some heavy conjecture. They talk about the existence of Pegasus software, and they talk about the fact that generically, it has been used in the world to track journalists. They don't actually cite a single example of a Palestinian, much less a journalist, being tracked through Pegasus. Likewise, they say it "appears" that this data is then used for targeting but no indication as to what makes it appear that way. The article is basically "spyware exists" - and the rest is pure speculation about how it could possibly be used but no evidence (mentioned) that it's used that way.
- dang 3y ago
  Thanks, that's a good point. The first few paragraphs alone say "allegedly", "believes", and "thought to have". I've changed the link from https://pressgazette.co.uk/news/gaza-journalists-targeted-spyware/ https://pressgazette.co.uk/news/gaza-journalists-targeted-sp... (the submitted URL) to https://cpj.org/2024/03/journalist-casualties-in-the-israel-gaza-conflict https://cpj.org/2024/03/journalist-casualties-in-the-israel-..., which it points to. I've also changed the title to reflect the link change.
- 2597123128 3y ago
  [1] is a good source for a list of people, and an explanation of how Citizen Lab determined the phones were infected by Pegasus. [1]: https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/research/2021/11/devices-of-palestinian-human-rights-defenders-hacked-with-nso-groups-pegasus-spyware-2/ https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/research/2021/11/devices-o...
hersko 3y ago
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- henry2023 3y ago
  Well maybe people believe that Genocide = Bad and the rest is just logic
  - hersko 3y ago
    Genocide:The systematic and widespread extermination or attempted extermination of a national, racial, religious, or ethnic group. Explain how the country that does roof-knocks[1], phone calls[2], and has literally driven its own people out of Gaza[3] in an attempt for peace is attempting to exterminate Palestinians. Learn what words mean before using them. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roof_knocking https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roof_knocking [2] https://www.nytimes.com/2023/10/16/world/middleeast/gaza-invasion-israel-cellphone-data.html https://www.nytimes.com/2023/10/16/world/middleeast/gaza-inv... [3] https://www.britannica.com/event/Israels-disengagement-from-Gaza https://www.britannica.com/event/Israels-disengagement-from-...
    - henry2023 3y ago
      Thank you for the definition. Isn’t this precisely what’s happening in Gaza? Even the ICJ ordered Israel to take steps to prevent any acts of genocide in Gaza. Do they also don’t know the definition of the word?
      - hersko 3y ago
        The court did not say that Israel is committing genocide. It didn't even require a ceasefire. Do you not know what "preventing" or "committing" mean either?
        henry2023 3y ago
        Why do you think it asked Israel to prevent acts of Genocide instead of asking both sides of preventing acts of Genocide? Do you believe that if there’s no suspicion that acts of Genocide are being committed by the IDF the court could have emitted such ruling? I’m not trying to fight in here. You don’t need to be condescending this is not reddit my friend.
myth_drannon 3y ago
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- henry2023 3y ago
  No one celebrates the deaths of Russian journalists.
  - jiggawatts 3y ago
    That’s objectively not true. Several Reddit forums were doing so when it was thought that WarGonzo had been shot in a trench.
    - henry2023 3y ago
      Well you’re right. There’s a super small highly political motivated group of people who will celebrate the deaths of Russian journalists. The vast majority of people don’t
DonnyV 3y ago
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tety 3y ago
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- tehjoker 3y ago
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  - jiggawatts 3y ago
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    - deleted 3y ago
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    - erokar 3y ago
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      - nsguy 3y ago
        The ICJ said no such thing. Read the ruling. It said something along the lines of the "rights of the Palestinian people to be protected from genocide and the rights of South Africa to seek this protection are plausible". The use of the word genocide in this context is just pure propaganda. There are plenty of conflicts with significantly higher human toil where this word is not used.
        erokar 3y ago
        The ICJ did say that South Africa's accusation of genocide was plausible, which is also the reason they decided to proceed with the case. This is what a professor of international law has to say about the case: https://www.ejiltalk.org/speaking-the-law-plausibly-the-international-court-of-justice-on-gaza/ https://www.ejiltalk.org/speaking-the-law-plausibly-the-inte... And if over 30,000 dead Palestinians so far isn't enough for you, the intent is the central issue of genocide, though the Palestinian casualties will undoubtably rise.
firebaze 3y ago
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- deleted 3y ago
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erokar 3y ago
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firebaze 3y ago
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karim79 3y ago
What is striking about these casualties, is many of the reported deaths also include large numbers of family members of the deceased, killed at the same time. So what is it then? The plausible deliberate targeting of the journalists mentioned? Or just, plain old indiscriminate bombing? Either ways, shame.
- deleted 3y ago
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gryzzly 3y ago
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majikaja 3y ago
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teleforce 3y ago
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- seanmcdirmid 3y ago
  How does Hamas keep track of those names but not the much smaller number of Israeli hostages?
campl3r 3y ago
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greatgib 3y ago
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- porkbeer 3y ago
  Yes, even viewpoints you disagree with can be sold as news, and those reporting it should not be murdered without a trial.
  - rightbyte 3y ago
    It think it was your point, but to be clear since there seem to be some confusion among some, any trial is also unnessecary, since there is no crime commited.
- b-side 3y ago
  Wow, that is a mighty slippery slope you are on. You do realise that with the same rationale, all Western media outlets are propagandists in the eyes of nations like Russia, Iran & China? Do we really want the precedent to be that it is okay to kill journalists as long as they disagree with you?
  - greatgib 3y ago
    To be clear, I did not say that I support the murder of anyone. What I'm stating here is that it is not a list of "deaths" or war deaths, but a list of "journalist killed". This can easily be used as a "propaganda tool" regarding the fact that in a lot of places, anyone can claim to be a journalist whatever its actions. My point is that if you are killed doing the coverage of an event, while you were a kind of neutral third party, that is a shame. At the opposite, if you are journalist working for producing content affiliated with a party, and you are yourself involved, like sometimes you are holding a gun yourself, it is not the same thing. But a lot of persons can abuse of the ambiguities for political purpose.
- password54321 3y ago
  If someone just wanted to be a "propagandist" they wouldn't need to be in Gaza and risk their lives to report from first hand. And we are talking about journalists who have citizenship from many parts of the world.
ildjarn 3y ago
Is it appropriate to call this a war? To me it seems more like a nation state fighting a terrorist group, with heavy civilian losses.
- dudefeliciano 3y ago
  would special military operation be a better term?
  - incognos 3y ago
    How about massacre and genocide? they seem far more appropriate to a one sided military operation.
    - xoac 3y ago
      i think this was likely a reference to another contemporary conflict
- diggan 3y ago
  Yeah, if both parties have declared war against each other, I think it's fair to call it a war. Besides, does it matter what you call it? It's a war for all intents and purposes. Every war/invasion/special military operation is seemingly a "The good guys (me) against the bad guys/terrorists (you)" conflict, and if that's not war, I'm not sure what is.
  - incognos 3y ago
    You cannot declare war on a territory you occupy and control. It is as if the United States declared war on Washington DC or any of their numerous prisons.
    - tromp 3y ago
      Israel neither occupied nor controlled the Gaza interior prior to Hamas' attack. They only controlled the border and what goes in and out of Gaza (some cross border tunnels excepted). Within Gaza, Hamas and the Palistinian National Authority ruled.
incognos 3y ago
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- exodust 3y ago
  You might identify as a fact vending machine, but don't count on others buying your processed snacks. > Fact: This began in 1948... Let's add a breakpoint there. You haven't defined "this", and everyone knows any measure of "this" goes back before 1948. Speaking of 1948, just 3 years after WW2 ended, the Jews who suffered some of the worst death and despair of WW2, were attacked again in 1948 from all sides in the Arab Israel war. Yes we all know the crimes on both sides at that time. But still... Welcome to the neighborhood! When a country needs an "iron dome" to protect itself from neighbors, the problem is the neighbors, not the ones who built the iron dome. Wherever you have humans, there's conflict. This pattern repeats in varying degrees everywhere. The idea is to move towards peace, resolution, compromise, and a way out of misery. Pointing fingers at Israel and blaming everything on them is not an exercise in fact-finding. Oct7 was probably the worst strategic blunder ever. "Look over there, a music festival! Let's gleefully kill, rape and torture! What could go wrong?!"
  - incognos 3y ago
    [flagged]
    - tptacek 3y ago
      The rape allegations have not been debunked. The UN Special Representative on Sexual Violence in Conflict just yesterday announced convincing evidence not just of organized sexual violence on October 7th, but of sexual violence against the hostages themselves, including evidence that such abuse is ongoing. It's been a Twitter talking point for the last 2 weeks that the rape accusations are hoaxes; some of that is the New York Times fault for mishandling a story, and some of it is a credulous alternative media that platforms Syrian genocide deniers, but at any rate: the consensus among serious people seems to be that the sexual violence narrative is substantiated. This is one of those things that you can probably reasonably debate, if you're extraordinarily careful how you write about it (is it worth it? it's not as if it changes the calculus of how horrible Hamas is), but you can't reasonably claim is "debunked". (The comment you were replying to was dismissive and uncivil; I'm just taking issue with a specific point you raised.)
password54321 3y ago
Israel has distracted the entire West from Ukraine and is mostly being driven by someone who seems to be more self-interested than anything else. The West has been played like a total fool and this is what Hamas wanted, to follow Israel into creating an unstable environment where we are now even bombing Yemen all while other countries like China continue to grow. The fact that the attack happened right as relations were about to normalise with both Turkey and Saudi Arabia is all you need as evidence.
- loceng 3y ago
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GordonS 3y ago
Israel prevents foreign journalists from entering Gaza to cover the conflict - that fact alone should cast heavy doubt on their intentions. Many journalists appear to have been deliberately targeted: killed by snipers, bombed while sleeping in their own homes, or hit by airstrikes while travelling.
Horffupolde 3y ago
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grumple 3y ago
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- nemo44x 3y ago
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_obviously 3y ago
'Love to see a graph age of the accounts posting here and their positions on this topic.
syngrog66 3y ago
This is totally off-topic and inappropriate for "Hacker News" please dont let this site drift further away
- astura 3y ago
  There's thousands upon thousands of discussions on here about Russia, Ukraine, China, North Korea, Iran, USA/NSA, etc. Why is discussions about Israel suddenly "totally off-topic and inappropriate?"
- dang 3y ago
  HN's approach to this kind of story has been stable for many years. There's no long-term drift [1], but there are random fluctuations, which often raise fears of a long-term drift [2]. If you want more explanation, see my post https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=39618973 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=39618973 earlier in this thread, and the links back from there. If you read some of those and have a question I haven't already answered, I'd be happy to take a crack at it. [1] I say that because we're conscious of what the principles governing this are, and it's possible to apply them fairly consistently. [2] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17014869 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17014869
pmarreck 3y ago
There is nothing I could say here that would not offend someone, because that's how bad the discourse is around this war. So I'm biting my tongue. What I'm REALLY saying is that it's inappropriate for HN. It's a human story, for sure, but...
pierat 3y ago
Being in the USA, I look at what I can do, and it's effectively nothing. There's the whole movement to 'not support any Democrat candidate's during the primaries, which is wavering the non-committed around 8-15%. Aside sending a vote message to Biden, I'm powerless to do more. Honestly, the US govt needs to quit selling/giving/loaning weaponry to Israel. Won't solve the problem, but at least we wouldn't be supporting it. I try to focus on problems I can do something about. This ain't one of them.
- skulk 3y ago
  While the US violently cleansed the land of various indigenous peoples, there was no Internet through which stern condemnation could arrive. The Israelis have to do the same but broadcasted to every single person's palm. It's quite unfortunate for them, really. Sometimes you gotta help your little bro out.
  - pierat 3y ago
    I have little care about something that happened 100-300 years ago. I wasnt alive. My opinion has literally 0 bearing over stuff that's happened. What I care about now is that we quit supporting Israel's own holocaust. Just because they had something horrible happen in the 1940's, doesn't mean they get "One Free Holocaust Ticket". Let them fend for themselves. Sanction them. Run battleships in the Mediterranean to break the Gaza blockade. Basically we should put them in the proverbial time-out corner until they can behave like civilized adults.
    - skulk 3y ago
      The continued existence of Israel in the Middle East is like fire underwater. Without a serious continous injection of energy, it'll die out instantly. Everything I've read hints that the Arabs will wipe them out completely if they don't have ~billions coming in from the US annually. Look up how Arabs have historically treated Jews living on "their" land, and the various expulsions of Jews from modern Arab states. It paints a GRIM picture of a post-umbilical cord Israel. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antisemitism_in_the_Arab_world https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antisemitism_in_the_Arab_world > Traditionally, Jews in the Muslim world ... were subjected to dhimmi status. They were afforded relative security against persecution, provided they did not contest the varying inferior social and legal status imposed on them under Islamic rule. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_Jews_under_Muslim_rule https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_Jews_under_Musl... > In 1945, there were between 758,000 and 866,000 Jews living in communities throughout the Arab world. Today, there are fewer than 8,000. I'm not taking a position on what the US should do in this post, but withdrawing support for Israel is definitely going to lead to horrific violence all the same.
Log_out_ 3y ago
In my opinion a tristate solution is the best approach. If you want democracy and coexistence you go to the good place, if you want that not you goto the bad place. Judgment not on group basis, but individual basis with massive surveillance as basis for review.. Could send the extremists of both sides to the bad place for bonus points.

449 points by Qem 3y ago

rendall 3y ago

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knewspeak 3y ago
Though it's certainly sensible to question the accuracy of the numbers, considering Israel is making it impossible for anyone besides Hamas to verify those numbers and considering that the Netanyahu gov has actively given aid, comfort, and power to Hamas to crush any rival in Gaza [0][1], this then is also true: Israel currently has no standing to dispute those numbers. >Any article or media organization that does not point this out instantly loses credibility. by that logic, any article or media organization that fails to point out the information in the references below also instantly loses credibility. [0] https://www.timesofisrael.com/for-years-netanyahu-propped-up-hamas-now-its-blown-up-in-our-faces/ https://www.timesofisrael.com/for-years-netanyahu-propped-up... [1] https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/netanyahu-israel-gaza-hamas-1.7010035 https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/netanyahu-israel-gaza-hamas...
- rendall 3y ago
  Tell me more about this. _Israel is making it impossible for anyone besides Hamas to verify those numbers..._ Is Israel preventing journalists from entering Gaza? If so, how does this reconcile with the OP article?
shprd 3y ago
> meaning they are certainly inflated Do you have even a glimpse of evidance? or are we speculating now? They deaths are published by full name and national number. Regardless, the masscare is ongoing and the exact number doesn't change anything. It's not like there's a certain threshold they aimed for. It's disgusting that your first response to reading 30,000 people were killed was to speculate and try to undertone it.
nasso_dev 3y ago
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LAC-Tech 3y ago
Let's be generous and take Israeli estimates: 10,000 civilians, excluding Hamas fighters. The initial militant attack took 253 people hostage. As reprehensible as that is, it's not worth 10,000 civilian deaths.
- rendall 3y ago
  You would be correct were the war about retaliation. It is not retaliation. It is a military operation. It is a military operation to remove an implacable enemy who deliberately positions military hardware such as rocket launchers in and around civilians and civilian infrastructure. This is an enemy who would kill more than 30,000 Israeli citizens if it could. Hamas would kill every single Israeli if it acquired the weapons to do so. We know this because they frequently fire rockets at civilian targets. They are doing so even now as you read this. Hamas would kill every single Israeli even if it meant killing thousands of Palestinians. We know this is true because Hamas leadership has been saying this for decades. Further, when you compare civilian casualties to other wars, even other wars in neighboring countries, the casualty rate is extremely low.
  - GordonS 3y ago
    > This is an enemy who would kill more than 10,000 if it could And yet, it's Israel that has killed 30-50k... so far. > who deliberately positions military hardware such as rocket launchers in and around civilians and civilian infrastructure Gaza is a very dense, urban area, so it's kind of unavoidable. And you know as well as I do that these "rockets" are barely more than overgrown fireworks - they are mostly symbolic. That said, I do feel like Hamas are fools for continuing to fire them - I understand they need to resist blockade, occupation and dehumanisation, but I just can't see how this could possibly help. > We know this is true because Hamas leadership has been saying this for decades Except, thats not really true, is it? Hamas have been openly saying for several years now that they have no beef with people of the Jewish faith, they just want their homes back.
    - rendall 3y ago
      > 30-50k... so far... ... according to Hamas.
GordonS 3y ago
No, this is propaganda - every MSM outlets appends that biased "disclaimer" to every story they run on Gaza. Do they append "according to US-backed Israel" when parroting Israeli propaganda verbatim? No. And still, the UN says the Hamas' numbers are realistic, and the Lancet says they are realistic[0]. Meanwhile, some parts of the IDF claim every death of a military-age male was the death of a "terrorist". [0] https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6736(23)02713-7/fulltext https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6...
- rendall 3y ago
  You could address the accusation directly rather than diverting with labels of "bias" and "propaganda". Tell us all how Hamas, as an incorruptible bastion of truth and honor, has neither incentive nor opportunity to inflate civilian deaths.

Qem 3y ago

Archived: http://web.archive.org/web/20240303014749/https://pressgazette.co.uk/news/gaza-journalists-targeted-spyware/ http://web.archive.org/web/20240303014749/https://pressgazet... > Around 10% of Gaza's journalists have been killed versus 2.5% of healthcare workers. These figures are insane! The number of journalists killed crossed the threshold where Gaza journalists can be declared officially decimated, according to the historical definition of the term as 1/10 killed[1]. I noticed if we plot the journalist killings against general population killings in Gaza, the graph deviates from an approximately straight line that might be expected if journalists were merely being killed as a result of "collateral damage" amidst indiscriminated bombings, and I got nerd sniped[2] by the question: Do data give any clues Israel purposefully targets journalists, beyond the large values[3]? After spending some days grappling with it, I think the shape of data supports it, as displayed here: Graph: https://imgur.com/a/SWNSYOn https://imgur.com/a/SWNSYOn Journalist killing data: https://pastebin.com/S1ykpSMR https://pastebin.com/S1ykpSMR (from https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_journalists_killed_in_the_Israel%E2%80%93Hamas_war https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_journalists_killed_in_...) General population killing data: https://pastebin.com/EGq6cgH8 https://pastebin.com/EGq6cgH8 (from https://www.ochaopt.org/ https://www.ochaopt.org/) Discussion: Looking at the plot of the ratio of journalists killed by israeli forces over all killed, it appears to be slightly decreasing over time instead of keeping constant. My working hypothesis is, as journalists are dispoportionally targeted, their numbers get comparatively depleted over time, making slightly harder to kill more journalists. This can be modelled as an urn problem[4], when each ball colour has different odds of being drawn, in addition to being present in different numbers. But instead of black/white balls, we have people, and instead of being drawn out from an urn, they are drawn out of life, by being shot at[5], shelled, bombed, run over by bulldozers[6], et cetera. The urn problem with different weights on each color can be modeled by a noncentral hypergeometric distribution[7], either Wallenius' noncentral hypergeometric distribution[8], for the case where balls are sampled one by one in such a way that there is competition between the balls, or Fisher's noncentral hypergeometric distribution[9], for the case where the balls are sampled simultaneously or independently of each other. There's some disagreement on published numbers of killed journalists. For example, the Comitee to Protect Journalists counts around 90 jornalists killed[10]. The Euro-Med Monitor over 130[11]. I'm not sure about the causes of this disagreement, but I suspect is due to who is counted as journalist, only people that actualy write reports and give face and voice to established news sources, or also their supporting crews (camera men, fixers, drivers...) and freelancers. In doubt I used data extracted from a table given by wikipedia[12], that is closer to the more conservative estimate given by CPJ and lists individual names and sources. The pattern of journalists killed each day in the dataset (1, 3, 1, 3, 1, 1, 2, 1, 1, 2, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 5, 1, 1, 1, 2, 2, 2, 1, 1, 2, 1, 2, 6, 1, 2, 1, 2, 1, 2, 1, 4, 2, 1, 3, 1, 1, 2, 1, 1, 1, 3, 2, 1, 2, 2, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1) indicates they're taken down mostly one at a time, and even large individual massacres, like the recent flour bag massacre[13], kills less than 1/10000 of the total population from Gaza Strip each, so Wallenius' distribution should approximate it better. In fact, it appears it is more likely for journalists to be killed together with their families at home than together with other journalists doing fieldwork, as we can infer by reading the entries in the description field of the table. For the figures on the whole strip, I collected daily reports published in the site of United Nations Office for the Coordination of Humanitarian Affairs (OCHA), and scraped some barcharts[14]. 1/3 (continues)

slipperybeluga 3y ago

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deleted 3y ago
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blurbleblurble 3y ago

I appreciate that this is on here and I hope we can collectively handle it. Tech isn't isolated from this situation, as difficult as it is to admit and talk about with civility and care. A US military software engineer even self immolated recently in protest of what's happening. I don't see what's happening in Gaza as being culturally particular to the specific identity groups involved here. It's a very human situation and we are all at risk of falling into these kinds of collective behaviors.

McNutty 3y ago
Strongly disagree. This platform for tech news should not become a place for political posts, nor even for posting regular news headlines. Yes we know that reddit sucks but stop trying to make hn into reddit. Also the community can't handle it, just look at the handful of comments we already have here.
- dang 3y ago
  HN's standard about this question has been stable for many years: some stories with political overlap are both inevitable and in keeping with the mandate of the site. The question, when it comes to the biggest political topics, is which stories clear that bar. I've posted about this many times, including quite a few explanations specific to the current topic: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=39435324 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=39435324 (Feb 2024) https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=39435024 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=39435024 (Feb 2024) https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=39237176 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=39237176 (Feb 2024) https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38947003 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38947003 (Jan 2024) https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38749162 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38749162 (Dec 2023) https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38657829 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38657829 (Dec 2023) https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38657527 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38657527 (Dec 2023) Here are links to lots of past explanations I've given about the principles we use to decide these questions more generally: https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&query=by%3Adang%20major%20ongoing%20topic&sort=byDate&type=comment https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&que... https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=false&sort=byDate&type=comment&query=%22significant%20new%20information%22%20by%3Adang https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=false&so... https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=false&sort=byDate&type=comment&query=political%20overlap%20by:dang https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=false&so...

jmac01 3y ago

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Jiro 3y ago

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yunwal 3y ago
It’s also very hard to be neutral to indiscriminate bombing of civilians in plain sight
- Jiro 3y ago
  Is your theory that Hamas allows journalists free reign to report on anything in Gaza no matter how unflattering, without shooting the reporters who do so, just so that when Israel bombs the journalists will report the bombing? I doubt that.
  - g-b-r 3y ago
    SURE it really seems in Hamas best interest to shoot the few journalists present... And it's Hamas that's preventing international journalists to enter... They're terrorists but not stupid
    - highmastdon 3y ago
      Really? I think they’re terrorists AND stupid. Why else would they use funds from charity to build tunnels? Why else wouldn’t they build a local economy instead of investing in the daily rain of rockets on their neighbours? Why else would they launch a horrific attack against civilians at a “love and peace” festival next to the Gaza Strip in a country that’s a military powerhouse? Other than complete delusion, it’s because they’re stupid… OR they don’t care about the well-being of their citizens and value the death of their opponents more than the live of their own
      - yunwal 3y ago
        > Why else wouldn’t they build a local economy instead of investing in the daily rain of rockets on their neighbours? Seriously? If you’re trying to build an economy, one of the first things you’d want to do is establish free trade with other countries. If you can’t do that your economic prospects are basically zero.

ciconia 3y ago

> Around 10% of Gaza's journalists have been killed versus 2.5% of healthcare workers. One possible explanation is that journalists have a much higher probability of being close to where the fighting is, than healthcare workers.

g-b-r 3y ago
That healthcare workers comparison does indeed not make much sense, it should be healthcare workers involved in retrieving the injured, which are indeed at very high risk (even though theoretically they shouldn't be targeted)
simpletone 3y ago
10% would be considered an extremely high death rate for soldiers involved in the fighting. Even 2.5% for healthcare workers is ridiculously high. Would be interesting to see what the death rates for journalists, medics, soldiers, etc was in afghan war, iraq war, vietnam war, etc. I highly doubt any reaches 10%.
- JumpCrisscross 3y ago
  > 10% would be considered an extremely high death rate for soldiers involved in the fighting. Even 2.5% for healthcare workers is ridiculously high. Hamas based their operations where conventional rules of war prohibit fire. That makes comparing casualty rates incredibly difficult. (To my knowledge, nobody else has done this so comprehensively. Though given its success, I expect it to be emulated. Which unfortunately means prohibitions on bombing hospitals, schools and places of worship are now obsolete.)
  - licebmi__at__ 3y ago
    >Though given its success, I expect it to be emulated. I'm wondering by what metric do you define success.
    - hersko 3y ago

g-b-r 3y ago

Besides the statistics I advise anyone to also look at the reports of how the individual deaths happened, I've seen them very little discussed in western media. There's often enough evidence to show an extremely likely deliberate killing (usually with weapons that Hamas doesn't have). Journalists have been killed outside of the Gaza strip as well. Just make your own informed opinion. Furthermore, there have been so few western journalists on the ground because Israel (and Egypt) prevented them from entering, I think this prohibition alone should be considered unacceptable in the 21 century

JumpCrisscross 3y ago
> evidence to show an extremely likely deliberate killing Do you have examples?
- g-b-r 3y ago
  https://cpj.org/2024/03/journalist-casualties-in-the-israel-gaza-conflict https://cpj.org/2024/03/journalist-casualties-in-the-israel-... is a good independent source to get started (see also https://cpj.org/2024/03/attacks-arrests-threats-censorship-the-high-risks-of-reporting-the-israel-hamas-war https://cpj.org/2024/03/attacks-arrests-threats-censorship-t...)
  - bkirkby 3y ago
    there appears to be no effort by cpj to determine if the journalists were killed by palestinians or israelis. is that accurate?
    - blast 3y ago
      All the examples I looked at say killed by Israeli airstrike or Israeli sniper.
loceng 3y ago
It's also worth seeing if there's a historical pattern of behaviour: "One Martyr Down: The Untold Story Of A Canadian Peacekeeper Killed At War" - https://legionmagazine.com/one-martyr-down-the-untold-story-of-a-canadian-peacekeeper-killed-at-war/ https://legionmagazine.com/one-martyr-down-the-untold-story-... A Canadian Army Major Paeta Hess-von Kruedener was assassinated after the IDF "accidentally" bombed a United Nations post that he was posted at - soon after he reported war crimes that he witnessed the IDF doing.

moshun 3y ago

For context, a total of 69 journalists were killed in WWII, 63 in the Vietnam war both of which lasted several years. As of today March 6th 2024, the Gaza invasion has left 86 journalists dead in less than 4 months. That is an amazingly high percentage for the expected mean in a conflict. Sources: https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/interactive/2024/israel-gaza-war-journalists-killed-cpj/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/interactive/2024/israel... https://www.icij.org/inside-icij/2024/02/over-75-of-all-journalists-killed-in-2023-died-in-gaza-war-per-cpj/ https://www.icij.org/inside-icij/2024/02/over-75-of-all-jour... https://www.nytimes.com/2006/05/30/world/middleeast/30embed.html https://www.nytimes.com/2006/05/30/world/middleeast/30embed....

boringg 3y ago
That may be true but a couple things have changed since those very dated sample points. (1) Definition of journalist (2) quantity of journalists (3) willingness to be on the very front lines in order to get better stories (4) technology enabling journalists thus being able to be more dangerous spots. (5) speculation -> journalists who are using press credentials as cover I'm neither way on the conflict but want to correct some of your arguments assumptions that lead your conclusion astray.
- henry2023 3y ago
  Are we seeing the same percentage of journalists killed by the Russian army in Ukraine?
  - boringg 3y ago
    Totally different war structure.
    - ethanbond 3y ago
      The onus of protecting journalists (and medical workers) falls on the military regardless of how difficult the war they’re trying to prosecute is. How many journalists did the US kill in 20 years of OEF/OIF?

transformi 3y ago

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Gabriel54 3y ago
Suppose I am a country at war with the United States. Do I have the right to kill every American journalist? Also, it is not clear what "working in Hamas" means since they formed the government of the Gaza strip, so people "working in Hamas" would include all public officials, civil servants, etc. Does Israel have the right to kill all the sanitation workers of the Gaza strip since they also "work in Hamas"?
- jncfhnb 3y ago
  The rules of war are completely out the door when one side routinely pretends to be civilian, which is a war crime. Which is not to say it’s just to go committing whichever crimes you want, but discussing legal rights is largely pointless because it is immediately a lawless war.
  - eeeehhh 3y ago
    No, one side of a conflict cannot ignore the rules simply because the other side does. It also seems an especially poor argument when one side is a nuclear-armed, highly modern military power and the other a lighltly armed militia.
    - jncfhnb 3y ago
      Not ignore, no. But the bar for holding one accountable for collateral damage changes. Considering, for example, the staggering scale of tunnels that have been built to funnel military supplies through civilians areas; clearing operations to destroy these areas entirely feels defensible. When a hospital is used as an arms hub, it is incredibly complex and costly to try and seize it by encirclement and small arms siege versus just blowing it up. This is a very difficult situation.
      - 3y ago

hmmmcurious1 3y ago

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Workaccount2 3y ago
All Hamas has to do is issue uniforms for fighters. Israel would probably even voluntarily foot the cost. But Hamas won't do it because of how much leverage civilians getting killed gets them.
- g-b-r 3y ago
  Or stop living in normal apartments and move to dedicated bomb-here Hamas barracks?
- g-b-r 3y ago
  And, it must be so hard to tell if a Palestinian with a rifle is of Hamas (or another fighting group), or a civilian...
  - nsguy 3y ago
    You can see videos with the pattern of "civilians" grabbing an RPG, firing it, and dropping it. One minute they're civilians, the next 2 they're not, then they're civilians again. They don't have rifles when they're doing this.
- kurthr 3y ago
  https://www.haaretz.com/opinion/2024-02-04/ty-article-opinion/.premium/11-500-children-have-been-killed-in-gaza-horror-of-this-scale-has-no-explanation/0000018d-6fe9-d4f1-a18d-fff9c4010000 https://www.haaretz.com/opinion/2024-02-04/ty-article-opinio...
  - deleted 3y ago
    [deleted]
  - henry2023 3y ago
    I don’t know why so many people defend the Israel genocide. Everyone I meet offline including Israel born Jews are accusing their own government of genocide.

feedforward 3y ago

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mcgeez 3y ago
[Citation needed]
- gkfasdfasdf 3y ago
  > Numerous members of Al-Dahdouh's family have been killed by the Israeli military during the Israel–Hamas war. His wife, seven-year old daughter, and 15-year old son were killed in an Israeli airstrike on the Nuseirat refugee camp on 28 October 2023, in addition to eight of his other relatives. On 15 December 2023, while Al-Dahdouh and his cameraman Samer Abu Daqqa were covering the Haifa School airstrike in Khan Yunis, they were hit by an Israeli missile, injuring Dahdouh and fatally wounding Abu Daqqa. Despite the death of many family members and his injury, he quickly returned to reporting on the war after both incidents.[3] His son, journalist Hamza al-Dahdouh, was killed by an Israeli airstrike in Khan Younis on 7 January 2024,[4] and two of his nephews were killed in an airstrike the following day.[5] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wael_Al-Dahdouh https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wael_Al-Dahdouh
- ryanwhitney 3y ago
  Is there irrefutable proof of it in the current conflict? Unless something leaks from the IDF, we'll never know. But there are well-respected news orgs and NGOs identifying patterns of it. “CPJ is deeply alarmed by the pattern of journalists in Gaza reporting receiving threats, and subsequently, their family members being killed,” said CPJ Middle East and North Africa Program Coordinator Sherif Mansour. “The killing of the family members of journalists in Gaza is making it almost impossible for the journalists to continue reporting, as the risk now extends beyond them also to include their beloved ones.” https://cpj.org/2023/12/father-of-al-jazeeras-anas-al-sharif-killed-in-gaza-after-journalist-receives-threats/ https://cpj.org/2023/12/father-of-al-jazeeras-anas-al-sharif... And Reuters: https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/gaza-strikes-kill-family-members-journalist-targeted-by-death-threats-2023-11-20/ https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/gaza-strikes-kill-...

squarefoot 3y ago

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ryanwhitney 3y ago

Noting that Israel already had a history of killing well-identified journalists outside of direct conflict; and lying about it: https://forensic-architecture.org/investigation/shireen-abu-akleh-the-targeted-killing-of-a-journalist https://forensic-architecture.org/investigation/shireen-abu-... Here's a wider review from the Committee to Protect Journalists that predates the current conflict: https://cpj.org/reports/2023/05/deadly-pattern-20-journalists-died-by-israeli-military-fire-in-22-years-no-one-has-been-held-accountable/ https://cpj.org/reports/2023/05/deadly-pattern-20-journalist...

CommanderData 3y ago
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xyzelement 3y ago

Actually reading this article shows some heavy conjecture. They talk about the existence of Pegasus software, and they talk about the fact that generically, it has been used in the world to track journalists. They don't actually cite a single example of a Palestinian, much less a journalist, being tracked through Pegasus. Likewise, they say it "appears" that this data is then used for targeting but no indication as to what makes it appear that way. The article is basically "spyware exists" - and the rest is pure speculation about how it could possibly be used but no evidence (mentioned) that it's used that way.

dang 3y ago
Thanks, that's a good point. The first few paragraphs alone say "allegedly", "believes", and "thought to have". I've changed the link from https://pressgazette.co.uk/news/gaza-journalists-targeted-spyware/ https://pressgazette.co.uk/news/gaza-journalists-targeted-sp... (the submitted URL) to https://cpj.org/2024/03/journalist-casualties-in-the-israel-gaza-conflict https://cpj.org/2024/03/journalist-casualties-in-the-israel-..., which it points to. I've also changed the title to reflect the link change.
2597123128 3y ago
[1] is a good source for a list of people, and an explanation of how Citizen Lab determined the phones were infected by Pegasus. [1]: https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/research/2021/11/devices-of-palestinian-human-rights-defenders-hacked-with-nso-groups-pegasus-spyware-2/ https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/research/2021/11/devices-o...

hersko 3y ago

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henry2023 3y ago
Well maybe people believe that Genocide = Bad and the rest is just logic
- hersko 3y ago
  Genocide:The systematic and widespread extermination or attempted extermination of a national, racial, religious, or ethnic group. Explain how the country that does roof-knocks[1], phone calls[2], and has literally driven its own people out of Gaza[3] in an attempt for peace is attempting to exterminate Palestinians. Learn what words mean before using them. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roof_knocking https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roof_knocking [2] https://www.nytimes.com/2023/10/16/world/middleeast/gaza-invasion-israel-cellphone-data.html https://www.nytimes.com/2023/10/16/world/middleeast/gaza-inv... [3] https://www.britannica.com/event/Israels-disengagement-from-Gaza https://www.britannica.com/event/Israels-disengagement-from-...
  - henry2023 3y ago
    Thank you for the definition. Isn’t this precisely what’s happening in Gaza? Even the ICJ ordered Israel to take steps to prevent any acts of genocide in Gaza. Do they also don’t know the definition of the word?
    - hersko 3y ago
      The court did not say that Israel is committing genocide. It didn't even require a ceasefire. Do you not know what "preventing" or "committing" mean either?
      - henry2023 3y ago
        Why do you think it asked Israel to prevent acts of Genocide instead of asking both sides of preventing acts of Genocide? Do you believe that if there’s no suspicion that acts of Genocide are being committed by the IDF the court could have emitted such ruling? I’m not trying to fight in here. You don’t need to be condescending this is not reddit my friend.

myth_drannon 3y ago

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henry2023 3y ago
No one celebrates the deaths of Russian journalists.
- jiggawatts 3y ago
  That’s objectively not true. Several Reddit forums were doing so when it was thought that WarGonzo had been shot in a trench.
  - henry2023 3y ago
    Well you’re right. There’s a super small highly political motivated group of people who will celebrate the deaths of Russian journalists. The vast majority of people don’t

DonnyV 3y ago

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tety 3y ago

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tehjoker 3y ago
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- jiggawatts 3y ago
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    - nsguy 3y ago
      The ICJ said no such thing. Read the ruling. It said something along the lines of the "rights of the Palestinian people to be protected from genocide and the rights of South Africa to seek this protection are plausible". The use of the word genocide in this context is just pure propaganda. There are plenty of conflicts with significantly higher human toil where this word is not used.
      - erokar 3y ago
        The ICJ did say that South Africa's accusation of genocide was plausible, which is also the reason they decided to proceed with the case. This is what a professor of international law has to say about the case: https://www.ejiltalk.org/speaking-the-law-plausibly-the-international-court-of-justice-on-gaza/ https://www.ejiltalk.org/speaking-the-law-plausibly-the-inte... And if over 30,000 dead Palestinians so far isn't enough for you, the intent is the central issue of genocide, though the Palestinian casualties will undoubtably rise.

firebaze 3y ago

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erokar 3y ago

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firebaze 3y ago

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karim79 3y ago

What is striking about these casualties, is many of the reported deaths also include large numbers of family members of the deceased, killed at the same time. So what is it then? The plausible deliberate targeting of the journalists mentioned? Or just, plain old indiscriminate bombing? Either ways, shame.

deleted 3y ago
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gryzzly 3y ago

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majikaja 3y ago

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teleforce 3y ago

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seanmcdirmid 3y ago
How does Hamas keep track of those names but not the much smaller number of Israeli hostages?

campl3r 3y ago

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greatgib 3y ago

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porkbeer 3y ago
Yes, even viewpoints you disagree with can be sold as news, and those reporting it should not be murdered without a trial.
- rightbyte 3y ago
  It think it was your point, but to be clear since there seem to be some confusion among some, any trial is also unnessecary, since there is no crime commited.
b-side 3y ago
Wow, that is a mighty slippery slope you are on. You do realise that with the same rationale, all Western media outlets are propagandists in the eyes of nations like Russia, Iran & China? Do we really want the precedent to be that it is okay to kill journalists as long as they disagree with you?
- greatgib 3y ago
  To be clear, I did not say that I support the murder of anyone. What I'm stating here is that it is not a list of "deaths" or war deaths, but a list of "journalist killed". This can easily be used as a "propaganda tool" regarding the fact that in a lot of places, anyone can claim to be a journalist whatever its actions. My point is that if you are killed doing the coverage of an event, while you were a kind of neutral third party, that is a shame. At the opposite, if you are journalist working for producing content affiliated with a party, and you are yourself involved, like sometimes you are holding a gun yourself, it is not the same thing. But a lot of persons can abuse of the ambiguities for political purpose.
password54321 3y ago
If someone just wanted to be a "propagandist" they wouldn't need to be in Gaza and risk their lives to report from first hand. And we are talking about journalists who have citizenship from many parts of the world.

ildjarn 3y ago

Is it appropriate to call this a war? To me it seems more like a nation state fighting a terrorist group, with heavy civilian losses.

dudefeliciano 3y ago
would special military operation be a better term?
- incognos 3y ago
  How about massacre and genocide? they seem far more appropriate to a one sided military operation.
  - xoac 3y ago
    i think this was likely a reference to another contemporary conflict
diggan 3y ago
Yeah, if both parties have declared war against each other, I think it's fair to call it a war. Besides, does it matter what you call it? It's a war for all intents and purposes. Every war/invasion/special military operation is seemingly a "The good guys (me) against the bad guys/terrorists (you)" conflict, and if that's not war, I'm not sure what is.
- incognos 3y ago
  You cannot declare war on a territory you occupy and control. It is as if the United States declared war on Washington DC or any of their numerous prisons.
  - tromp 3y ago
    Israel neither occupied nor controlled the Gaza interior prior to Hamas' attack. They only controlled the border and what goes in and out of Gaza (some cross border tunnels excepted). Within Gaza, Hamas and the Palistinian National Authority ruled.

incognos 3y ago

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exodust 3y ago
You might identify as a fact vending machine, but don't count on others buying your processed snacks. > Fact: This began in 1948... Let's add a breakpoint there. You haven't defined "this", and everyone knows any measure of "this" goes back before 1948. Speaking of 1948, just 3 years after WW2 ended, the Jews who suffered some of the worst death and despair of WW2, were attacked again in 1948 from all sides in the Arab Israel war. Yes we all know the crimes on both sides at that time. But still... Welcome to the neighborhood! When a country needs an "iron dome" to protect itself from neighbors, the problem is the neighbors, not the ones who built the iron dome. Wherever you have humans, there's conflict. This pattern repeats in varying degrees everywhere. The idea is to move towards peace, resolution, compromise, and a way out of misery. Pointing fingers at Israel and blaming everything on them is not an exercise in fact-finding. Oct7 was probably the worst strategic blunder ever. "Look over there, a music festival! Let's gleefully kill, rape and torture! What could go wrong?!"
- incognos 3y ago
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  - tptacek 3y ago
    The rape allegations have not been debunked. The UN Special Representative on Sexual Violence in Conflict just yesterday announced convincing evidence not just of organized sexual violence on October 7th, but of sexual violence against the hostages themselves, including evidence that such abuse is ongoing. It's been a Twitter talking point for the last 2 weeks that the rape accusations are hoaxes; some of that is the New York Times fault for mishandling a story, and some of it is a credulous alternative media that platforms Syrian genocide deniers, but at any rate: the consensus among serious people seems to be that the sexual violence narrative is substantiated. This is one of those things that you can probably reasonably debate, if you're extraordinarily careful how you write about it (is it worth it? it's not as if it changes the calculus of how horrible Hamas is), but you can't reasonably claim is "debunked". (The comment you were replying to was dismissive and uncivil; I'm just taking issue with a specific point you raised.)

password54321 3y ago

Israel has distracted the entire West from Ukraine and is mostly being driven by someone who seems to be more self-interested than anything else. The West has been played like a total fool and this is what Hamas wanted, to follow Israel into creating an unstable environment where we are now even bombing Yemen all while other countries like China continue to grow. The fact that the attack happened right as relations were about to normalise with both Turkey and Saudi Arabia is all you need as evidence.

loceng 3y ago
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GordonS 3y ago

Israel prevents foreign journalists from entering Gaza to cover the conflict - that fact alone should cast heavy doubt on their intentions. Many journalists appear to have been deliberately targeted: killed by snipers, bombed while sleeping in their own homes, or hit by airstrikes while travelling.

Horffupolde 3y ago

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grumple 3y ago

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nemo44x 3y ago
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_obviously 3y ago

'Love to see a graph age of the accounts posting here and their positions on this topic.

syngrog66 3y ago

This is totally off-topic and inappropriate for "Hacker News" please dont let this site drift further away

astura 3y ago
There's thousands upon thousands of discussions on here about Russia, Ukraine, China, North Korea, Iran, USA/NSA, etc. Why is discussions about Israel suddenly "totally off-topic and inappropriate?"
dang 3y ago
HN's approach to this kind of story has been stable for many years. There's no long-term drift [1], but there are random fluctuations, which often raise fears of a long-term drift [2]. If you want more explanation, see my post https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=39618973 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=39618973 earlier in this thread, and the links back from there. If you read some of those and have a question I haven't already answered, I'd be happy to take a crack at it. [1] I say that because we're conscious of what the principles governing this are, and it's possible to apply them fairly consistently. [2] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17014869 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17014869

pmarreck 3y ago

There is nothing I could say here that would not offend someone, because that's how bad the discourse is around this war. So I'm biting my tongue. What I'm REALLY saying is that it's inappropriate for HN. It's a human story, for sure, but...

pierat 3y ago

Being in the USA, I look at what I can do, and it's effectively nothing. There's the whole movement to 'not support any Democrat candidate's during the primaries, which is wavering the non-committed around 8-15%. Aside sending a vote message to Biden, I'm powerless to do more. Honestly, the US govt needs to quit selling/giving/loaning weaponry to Israel. Won't solve the problem, but at least we wouldn't be supporting it. I try to focus on problems I can do something about. This ain't one of them.

skulk 3y ago
While the US violently cleansed the land of various indigenous peoples, there was no Internet through which stern condemnation could arrive. The Israelis have to do the same but broadcasted to every single person's palm. It's quite unfortunate for them, really. Sometimes you gotta help your little bro out.
- pierat 3y ago
  I have little care about something that happened 100-300 years ago. I wasnt alive. My opinion has literally 0 bearing over stuff that's happened. What I care about now is that we quit supporting Israel's own holocaust. Just because they had something horrible happen in the 1940's, doesn't mean they get "One Free Holocaust Ticket". Let them fend for themselves. Sanction them. Run battleships in the Mediterranean to break the Gaza blockade. Basically we should put them in the proverbial time-out corner until they can behave like civilized adults.
  - skulk 3y ago
    The continued existence of Israel in the Middle East is like fire underwater. Without a serious continous injection of energy, it'll die out instantly. Everything I've read hints that the Arabs will wipe them out completely if they don't have ~billions coming in from the US annually. Look up how Arabs have historically treated Jews living on "their" land, and the various expulsions of Jews from modern Arab states. It paints a GRIM picture of a post-umbilical cord Israel. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antisemitism_in_the_Arab_world https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antisemitism_in_the_Arab_world > Traditionally, Jews in the Muslim world ... were subjected to dhimmi status. They were afforded relative security against persecution, provided they did not contest the varying inferior social and legal status imposed on them under Islamic rule. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_Jews_under_Muslim_rule https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_Jews_under_Musl... > In 1945, there were between 758,000 and 866,000 Jews living in communities throughout the Arab world. Today, there are fewer than 8,000. I'm not taking a position on what the US should do in this post, but withdrawing support for Israel is definitely going to lead to horrific violence all the same.

Log_out_ 3y ago

In my opinion a tristate solution is the best approach. If you want democracy and coexistence you go to the good place, if you want that not you goto the bad place. Judgment not on group basis, but individual basis with massive surveillance as basis for review.. Could send the extremists of both sides to the bad place for bonus points.