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Nintendo is suing the creators of Switch emulator Yuzu

903 points by brandrick 3y ago

matt3210 3y ago
You can bump it off github with a lawsuit but you cant stop an open source project from being built if developers want to build it.
tristor 3y ago
Ironically, I own more than one Switch and all the games I play using an emulator. After the Steam Deck came out, I just preferred using the emulator on the Steam Deck because it allowed me to backup and share save files, so I had the convenience of a handheld with the ability to play on my gaming PC at home and in both cases have performance unrestricted. When the Switch OLED came out I was hoping it would be a performance boost also, but unfortunately that wasn't the case so I didn't buy one. I /really/ really like the Switch hardware. I think the Switch is arguably one of the best consoles ever made, especially for it's ergonomics and UX. The detachable joycons, the subtle integration of motion control, and it's light weight with good battery life made it an exceptionally good gaming product. I truly love my Switch(es), but they are very long in the tooth in 2024, running off what is basically a 2017 smartphone hardware. If Nintendo releases a Switch 2 with full games backwards compatibility, I'd prefer to play on first-party hardware vs using an emulator, but from my perspective I just want the best gaming experience, I don't care about their greedy interpretation of the law. Software is software and hardware is hardware, it makes no sense to restrict emulation in any way as long as you legally own the games.
coryfklein 3y ago
I love video games. I grew up with Super Mario Bros on the NES and since the 2000's I feel absolutely spoiled by the burgoening and diverse indie game industry. I can hardly believe that today I can mix and match genres, and the fact that the genre "deck building city builder roquelike" (looking at you Against the Storm) even exists is amazing. This whole industry exists because society has made guarantees that you can in fact license your game for sale and be rewarded for all your hard work. I'm glad that piracy has been far enough on the edges that people still find it worth their time to invest years into dreaming, crafting, and delivering wonderful new games every day. Where does this leave console emulators? I agree with everyone here that there is nothing inherently wrong with building them. But practically speaking, they do in fact significantly lower the barrier to "I'm going to play this game without paying the creators for it." If you, like me, love video games and want there to be a healthy and thriving market for them, then what is the right and correct set of rules that we can agree on as a society? I don't think banning emulators makes sense, but it bothers me how much the hacker community completely lacks any sense of nuance for how their "fun hacker project" can have a detrimental effect on the very thing they love. If the creators of these emulators are doing it out of a love and passion for video games, should they not also encourage users to pay for them? I know Nintendo isn't popular around here, and this particular action of theirs seems overreaching even to me, but if I have to pick a side I'm choosing the one that has some semblance of a future for video games.
- GabrielTFS 3y ago
  Yuzu certainly doesn't seem like a project that promotes piracy. They've made it very clear that they do not endorse piracy in any capacity, and in fact anyone found to be pirating games on e.g. their Discord server gets an insta-ban from what I've heard.
  - coryfklein 3y ago
    I haven't seen any indication that they promote it, but I'm guessing that something on the order of 98% of instances of Yuzu currently running on CPUs have pirated content in them. If the tool is used primarily for illegal purposes, it seems it would be good and laudable for the creators of it to do something to counter balance that beyond simply not endorsing said behavior? Again, not saying they are morally or legally obligated to do anything beyond "not endorse", but I assume the creators like video games and want there to be a market for them, and that they are aware of how the tool they create erodes said market.
    - GabrielTFS 3y ago
      I don't really see any measures that they could feasibly put in place that wouldn't be one of: - Incredibly easy to get around - Extremely cumbersome for legitimate users (especially given I would bet it would get workarounds that are way more convenient for pirates within hours of the measures being put in place) - Require laughably massive amounts of resources to put in place
Woshiwuja 3y ago
Nintendo needs to stop with this bs
ramijames 3y ago
Can't say I'm shocked. Nintendo's lawyers are notoriously litigous.
- indigodaddy 3y ago
  I think lawyers in general are very often, yes, litigious. Perhaps you meant to say their employer and/or client, Nintendo, is notoriously litigious.
  - nicce 3y ago
    Its not the lawyers but those who pay for them to do what is asked.
    - indigodaddy 3y ago
      Correct, that was the point I was making
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
robbiet480 3y ago
I knew that Patreon would bite them some day. Any time money comes into a "offensive" open source project, whoever feels they are getting hurt can make a claim a lot easier. Somewhat surprised they haven't yet sued Ryujinx (the other Switch emulator project) for also having a Patreon.
- GabrielTFS 3y ago
  It doesn't change much legally to my knowledge, given that Sony v. Connectix was about a commercial, for-profit emulator (literally sold in stores) that directly competed with a console being commercialized at the same time (the PlayStation) and Sony lost in that case, with the 9th Circuit declaring it was fair competition and legal for Connectix to emulate PlayStation games.
  - MomoXenosaga 3y ago
    Keep in mind that it's not about winning or losing in court. Most people don't have the money to fight. So they give up as soon as they get a letter from a lawyer. Justice costs money.
- A4ET8a8uTh0 3y ago
  I am not part of that scene, but I am sympathetic to emulation. Is there a notable difference between Yuzu and other switch emulators? I wonder if there are other reasons than Patreon ( money changing hands ) or there were other considerations?
  - johnnyanmac 3y ago
    Not particularly. But it's the biggest fish so it's the biggest target.
  - deelowe 3y ago
    Yuzu has amazing compatibility. I'm guessing it's getting too good for Nintendo. Their concerns with TotK are not without merit. I played it on Yuzu (on PC) because it was a much better experience than on the switch. Within a few days of the game being out, there were resolution and fps patches which made the game run much better. That said, I'm not sure how Yuzu can be blamed for TotK piracy. Guessing Nintendo is throwing a hail mary here and hoping they can connect the dots during discovery. I hope this doesn't spell the end of Yuzu, because I use it to play switch games that I own on my steam deck.
tamimio 3y ago
Link is not working? Any archive link?
- goryramsy 3y ago
  Same here… HN doing what it’s best at…
- enzanki_ars 3y ago
  https://archive.is/LvxxW https://archive.is/LvxxW
theultdev 3y ago
This is a pretty big case to watch. Are there any cases of emulators being sued successfully? A user being able to provide keys and a rom from which they could own or be homebrew doesn't seem to violate copyright to me. edit: seems the consensus is once via legal fund attrition, but the case went to the emulator authors in the end.
- monocasa 3y ago
  I don't believe so (the Sony v. Bleem cases mainly ended up in favor of Bleem), but also I don't think anyone has tried since the DMCA. It looks like Nintendo is taking a 'trafficking in circumvention device' legal strategy as opposed to a strictly anti-emulator legal strategy.
  - stonogo 3y ago
    DMCA was in effect the year before Sony first sued Bleem -- and it's notable that Bleem mostly won the lawsuits, but legal fees bankrupted them anyway.
    - monocasa 3y ago
      The DMCA was in effect but not applicable to the case since the DRM scheme of the PS1 doesn't block access to the files of the disc, but instead simply attempts to block the usage of non DRMed media on legitimate PS1s.
  - Natsu 3y ago
    It's funny, the game companies lost the emulator court cases. But the companies behind those emulators still went out of business.
    - hn_acker 3y ago
      Right. What I hate about copyright is that winning a copyright infringement lawsuit with a fair use defense (fair use being by definition not infringement [1]) will still bankrupt you because of the legal fees. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lenz_v._Universal_Music_Corp.#Circuit_court_ruling https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lenz_v._Universal_Music_Corp.#...
fzeroracer 3y ago
Looking over the legal document, realistically, their arguments are so damaging from a software perspective that they should lose. IANAL, but from skimming the legal document: The two major notions are that Yuzu violates Nintendo's copyright [1] by allowing people to play unauthorized copies [2]. In order to do so it allows for bypassing Nintendo's encryption (by taking in the keys, it does not embed the keys in the software) it falls under a violation of the DMCA [3]. Essentially, trying to argue that the keys are copyrighted. Additionally, they claim that every user that has either dumped Nintendo games they lawfully owned and play in Yuzu, or have pirated the roms and played in Yuzu have violated copyright and thus Yuzu should pay up [4]. [1] "In effect, Yuzu turns general computing devices into tools for massive intellectual property infringement of Nintendo and others’ copyrighted work" [2] "In other words, without Yuzu’s decryption of Nintendo’s encryption, unauthorized copies of games could not be played on PCs or Android devices. " [3] "Recognizing the threats faced by copyright owners like Nintendo in the age of digital piracy, Congress enacted the Anti-Circumvention and Anti-Trafficking provisions of the Digital Millennium Copyright Act (“DMCA”), making it illegal to circumvent or traffic in devices that circumvent technological measures put into place by copyright owners to protect against unlawful access to and copying of copyrighted works." [4] "On information and belief, Yuzu users have (1) dumped Nintendo games they have lawfully purchased and copied the game ROMs into Yuzu; and (2) obtained Nintendo games online from pirate websites and copied those game ROMs into Yuzu. Each such reproduction constitutes a violation of 17 U.S.C. § 501(a) for which Plaintiff is entitled to damages under 17 U.S.C. § 504 and injunctive relief under § 502"
- Acrobatic_Road 3y ago
  "On information and belief" - legalese for "we have no evidence".
  - aidenn0 3y ago
    Actually legalese for "by secondhand knowledge" so not "no evidence" but "no direct evidence"
    - 3y ago
lenova 3y ago
Google Cache link: http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache%3Ahttps%3A%2F%2Foverkill.wtf%2Fnintendo-sue-yuzu-emulator%2F http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache%3Ahttps...
Springtime 3y ago
> The legal document claims that over a million copies of last year's The Legend of Zelda: Tears of the Kingdom were downloaded prior to the game's official retail release. As a result, the company is now seeking damages and is demanding that the Yuzu emulator is shut down. Quite the leap from existing as an emulator to inexplicably being held liable for some independent leak.
- a_vanderbilt 3y ago
  It is also fully their fault the game was leaked early. They released the game carts to buyers too early, and their system5 crypto scheme was already broken by the time the game came out. Yuzu didn't break system5, nor do they ship the keys needed to decrypt the dumped game files. They did release patches which specifically fixed issues with Zelda, and that wasn't a good look legally - but it isn't illegal to fix inaccuracies with the software.
  - GabrielTFS 3y ago
    I have not heard of anything indicating they themselves released patches fixing issues with ToTK - only that other people made patches for that which the Yuzu team refused to accept until ToTK release. I don't see how random people making patches for an open source project should make the project liable for the existence of the patches.
    - a_vanderbilt 3y ago
      That's a great clarification. I think you bring up a great point.
- deleted 3y ago
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- gjsman-1000 3y ago
  Not necessarily. It's fairly easy to prove that if the emulator did not exist, the leak would be fairly inconsequential; and considering how easy it is to show the percentage of pirating users versus legitimate users (probably 95%+), it's not a good look. There's also the issue that, unlike prior emulators, Yuzu risks running afoul of DMCA anti-trafficking provisions for circumvention devices and software that uses circumvention devices. So, while per se emulating the Switch might be legal, decrypting the games may be illegal (as would software that is useless if it is unable to do that decryption). Edit: Strongly recommend reading my follow up comment explaining historical precedent: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=39530558 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=39530558
rottencupcakes 3y ago
[flagged]
- gjsman-1000 3y ago
  > Does Nintendo benefit that much from the sales of the Switch hardware? How many businesses does Sony have for income? Mountains. They could lose PlayStation and it would only be a dent. How many businesses does Microsoft have for income? Well, they could literally lose Xbox, and it wouldn't even be a dent. How many businesses does Nintendo have for income? One. And if they lose it, they're done. I think it completely understandable they would be far more defensive considering that gaming is a corporate life and death matter; unlike the competition.
  - johnnyanmac 3y ago
    You're right, but nit: Playstation is about 40% of Sony income. They can survive without PS, but it'd be a big hit losing that much of their market.
    - filleduchaos 3y ago
      That seems off according to Sony's financial report for FY2022 (https://www.sony.com/en/SonyInfo/IR/library/presen/er/pdf/22q4_supplement.pdf https://www.sony.com/en/SonyInfo/IR/library/presen/er/pdf/22...) - much closer to 30%. Still a massive blow to any company.
- dartos 3y ago
  So most console manufacturers take a loss on the console in exchange for controlling the economy of the console and creating a network effect for non cross play games. Nintendo is actually one of the few companies that make a profit (of a few cents) on their consoles. Every computer is also NOT the same nowadays. Modern operating systems abstract a lot of the differences away, but they’re there. Consoles give game devs a predictable platform to develop against and make guarantees for.
- ToucanLoucan 3y ago
wetpaws 3y ago
[dead]
CaliforniaKarl 3y ago
I really recommend folks watch this, from a lawyer: https://youtu.be/wROQUZDCIMI https://youtu.be/wROQUZDCIMI “Why Are Emulators Legal? Dolphin vs. Nintendo, and the Fate of Dolphin Emulator”
gamepsys 3y ago
This is truly awful for the gaming community at large. If this case makes a ruling then it will most likely have an impact on all emulation projects. If Nintendo decides to sue your open source project, how do you mount a legal defense?
- a_vanderbilt 3y ago
  Adversarial interoperability is at risk should the circumvention argument be entertained by the court. Don't want a competitor making something compatible even though they are legally allowed? Just protect it with "effective" measures and they aren't allowed to even try to be compatible? The Switches system1-6 crypto schemes weren't terribly good. system5 even weakend it drammatically and trapdoored them into being permenently weaker. Problem is what constitutes an "effective" anti-circumvention according to the DMCA is not defined.
- dartharva 3y ago
  Awful for the emulation team? Yes. Awful for the gaming community at large? Eh, Nintendo products are not as dominating as you think. It is only available in select countries and has a hundred million users at best. Compare that to PC and mobile gaming, it is almost negligible. Though it would indeed be problematic if American courts manage to establish a precedent criminalizing emulators. That is indeed a real threat; American courts are not known for robustness or integrity.
  - Sakos 3y ago
    > Though it would indeed be problematic if American courts manage to establish a precedent criminalizing emulators. That is indeed a real threat; American courts are not known for robustness or integrity. That's exactly why it's awful for the gaming community and honestly for human culture at large. Video game preservation isn't a thing without emulators. If Nintendo wins this, it means open season on every (major) contributor to an emulator and every emulation project. It means the end of the thriving emulation community and anybody interested in contributing except for a handful who are willing to risk being sued and/or live in a place where the US justice system has no reach. And it's not like Western Europe is particularly friendly to anything or anybody that circumvents DRM.
bakugo 3y ago
I hope Nintendo loses because it would be extremely harmful to emulation and software freedom as a whole if they didn't, but at the same time, I hope this knocks the whole "for-profit emulator" practice down a peg for a while. I think this is the same emulator that at one point tried asking people to pay a monthly subscription to play online.
- cylemons 3y ago
  Well in the famous Sony vs Bleem case in which Bleem won, Bleem was a fully commercial company selling their emulators. It's just that they created it in such a way that you still needed to own the ps1 game disk and insert it into your dreamcast.
deleted 3y ago
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lrvick 3y ago
I for one have exclusively used yuzu to play backups of games I legally purchased on a computer that can render them with higher frame-rates and quality than official switch hardware. This is my legal right, and Yuzu provided open source code to make this task easier for me. Nintendo is looking for a scapegoat here for their wasted investment in DRM technology.
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
- bassiek 3y ago
  It's not about the 16fps frame drops, it's about the experience. Enjoy IT.... or find us in COURT !
egypturnash 3y ago
Huh, guess I better go make sure the copy on my Steam Deck is up to date. Not that I've actually bothered acquiring a single Switch ROM, there's so damn many neat little mid-sized games on the thing.
michaelmrose 3y ago
If anything this lawsuit makes it difficult to morally justify purchasing Nintendo hardware and supporting them. Having really enjoyed the first Zelda game on an emulator I would otherwise have really considered it.
- favorited 3y ago
  So you played their game on an emulator, and you "would otherwise have really considered" paying for their products (but you didn't). How are they losing out by alienating you?
  - MyFedora 3y ago
    Nintendo lost out on future game and console sales from that person.
    - filleduchaos 3y ago
      Can you really claim to be a future customer of a product when you can get and are getting the value the product provides without having to pay for it? It's funny to me how every time the topic of piracy comes up, the world suddenly becomes so full of people who totally like giving companies money out of the sheer goodness of their hearts. And then by next week when it's time for another post about how open source maintainers get burnt out from a lack of material support, we all suddenly remember how human nature actually works.
      - MyFedora 3y ago
        Yep. My last Steam purchases include Cities: Skylines, Graveyard Keeper, Mini Metro, etc. All games I bought after I pirated and played them for a few hours. If I can't pirate a game, then I won't buy the game. Exceptions include games with a proper demo, like The Stanley Parable, or games that're love on first sight, like Lethal Company.
      - michaelmrose 3y ago
        I have 112 paid PC games in my steam library and over the years I've owned 6 consoles as well as building or buying many gaming computers. I'm definitely in the market for games and machines to play them.
GrabbinD33ze69 3y ago
Correct me if I’m wrong, but wasn’t Nintendo caught using an open source emulator for the switch, without any sort of credit to the authors after suing? If so, I have no empathy for them.
- TillE 3y ago
  Canoe (their SNES emulator) is definitely their own creation, it's very limited and can mostly only run the games they've released with it. I think it has some similar bugs to ZSNES, but that's just because they're both crappy low-accuracy emulators.
  - Mad_ad 3y ago
    iirc they used a open-source emu on their snes/nes mini
    - Kirby64 3y ago
      Maybe you're thinking of the 'Playstation Classic' ? That uses PCSX directly and got some flack for it. See: https://arstechnica.com/gaming/2018/11/sony-using-open-source-emulator-for-playstation-classic-plug-and-play/ https://arstechnica.com/gaming/2018/11/sony-using-open-sourc...
    - chungy 3y ago
      Nintendo's NES/SNES emulators have always been their own in-house tools. The NES/SNES Classic consoles did run on Linux, and Nintendo published the operating system source code as required by the software licenses, appropriately. The emulators are not part of the source release, and very likely derived from the same ones used on Wii virtual console (possibly older, Animal Crossing had a NES emulator on the GameCube too). There's a popular myth floating around that Nintendo downloaded Super Mario Bros. off the internet only to sell it back to players via the Wii virtual console, but I'm only comfortable with calling it a myth because it's based on the fact that the embedded iNES file in the VC release is identical to iNES files you can find online. There's only one standalone version of Super Mario Bros. on the NES, and you can trivially recreate an exact file on your very own if you have the cartridge and a ROM dumping utility. It's a pretty good possibility that Nintendo created their virtual ROM in exactly the same fashion. The iNES format itself is very simple, and Nintendo hired the iNES developer to work on their in-house software; he could have easily just brought that same format into their official projects. (EDIT: This last sentence appears to have been another myth I bought into, see the reply to this comment.)
Lammy 3y ago
Speculating here but it feels like part of Nintendo's beef is the popularity of PC form factors that look like a Nintendo Switch. Most notably the Steam Deck but there are loads of them. In 2022 Nintendo starting taking down Youtube videos showing Steam Decks running Switch games: https://www.resetera.com/threads/nintendo-started-blocking-videos-that-show-emulation-of-switch-on-steam-deck.558229/ https://www.resetera.com/threads/nintendo-started-blocking-v... And last year went after Dolphin (GCN/Wii emulator) as soon as they announced plans to be listed on Steam: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=36090755 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=36090755 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=36100732 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=36100732
- jsheard 3y ago
  Amusingly Valve themselves released an official trailer for the Steam Deck which showed Yuzu installed on the homescreen. It was quickly taken down and re-posted without any references to Yuzu, probably after a panicked email from legal. https://www.pcgamer.com/valve-edits-steam-deck-trailer-to-remove-nintendo-switch-emulator-icon/ https://www.pcgamer.com/valve-edits-steam-deck-trailer-to-re...
  - andy_ppp 3y ago
    I can play Switch games on Steam Deck!?
    - WithinReason 3y ago
      Yes, better than on the Switch. (now I'm awaiting legal action from Nintendo)
      - progbits 3y ago
        Better how? The detachable joycon with accelerometer control are a mechanic in some games (eg. Zelda crossbow aim). I would imagine this would be worse experience on steam deck.
codedokode 3y ago
> As a result, Nintendo ... is demanding that the Yuzu emulator is shut down. When corporations like Uber violate multiple laws, do they get shut down? When Amazon treats its employees poorly, does it get shut down? When Google forbids manufacturers to pre-install competitor apps, does it get shut down? Well, it seems that as long as copyright is not infringed, everything is ok. Also it seems to me that Nintendo might themselves violate antitrust laws by using their monopoly power on market of Nintendo-compatible games, and not allowing enough competition there.
- ambigious7777 3y ago
  Man, the US copyright system is broken :^(
- extheat 3y ago
  Anyone can sue anyone for any reason at any time. Unless the lawsuit is in bad faith and meritless (only a court can make that determination), there is no argument to be had about "lawfare". The only difference here and in other companies is that Nintendo actually follows through with their legal threats instead of just filing complaints they don't intend to take to court.
  - acyou 3y ago
    If we don't like companies abusing their power, we can complain and decide not to buy the products of companies doing that sort of thing, and support their competitors. There's only so far courts takes you, for a consumer company the real trial is most definitely in the public court of opinion.
    - jojobas 3y ago
      I can't see their user base (or should I say fans?) caring about some cheap-ass emulator crowd. Nintendo's cash cow is people who buy consoles, games and accessories for thousands bucks, not tinkerers. More general public (i.e. moms looking for kids' presents) wouldn't give to shits about any legal buggery either.
  - 3y ago
tetrisgm 3y ago
I would love to see OSS communities like Internet Archive or founders who are pro open source support them. Emulators are legal. Defending your hobby project in court is infeasible without patrons. Nintendo has no leg to stand on legally speaking, and there's a precedent waiting to happen. As for the emulator itself, I don't see any argument that the Yuzu team used "illegal means" (internal SDKs, whatever their equivalent of a DLL is, etc). A thought for the Ryujinx emulator devs, who are also making an excellent Switch emulator (sometimes more performant than Yuzu). They must be having a really stressful day.
- kevingadd 3y ago
  The last time I tried to use Yuzu or Ryujinx it was still quite difficult. I had to get out my switch and physical game cartridges and manually dump a bunch of decryption keys and game files. It is absurd that Nintendo is trying to claim these emulators are piracy tools or intended for piracy when they don't seem to do anything to make it easy to play a pirated game copy.
  - theshackleford 3y ago
    Most people just google for a dumped copy and your up and playing in minutes (as long as it takes to download.) Switch piracy is massive. Almost everyone I know is doing it. I’m not, but I still emulate because switch performance is poo. So I buy the game, and then emulate it in 4K/60, it’s how I finally finished BOTW.
    - wernercd 3y ago
      I stopped emulating when my game crashed and I lost weeks of BotW. I moved back to the switch after that lol. Emulation was awesome. Until...
      - causality0 3y ago
        That doesn't make sense. Botw keeps like five autosaves and they're all separate files which are never written to at the same time. You'd have to manually delete them to lose them.
skupig 3y ago
>(A)to “circumvent protection afforded by a technological measure” means avoiding, bypassing, removing, deactivating, or otherwise impairing a technological measure; If this is what Nintendo alleges yuzu facilitates, does Nintendo have a case? Reimplementing the security measures seems like a reaffirmation of the security measures, not an impairment.
- commandersaki 3y ago
  IANAL and I've never used a switch emulator before, but if you have a feature for supplying keys to play proprietary games then I believe that constitutes as bypassing a technological protection mechanism. However, if that same feature is used to allow supplying self-signed keys to play custom software/homebrew, and there's no other way to do this, then it might be murky.
russfink 3y ago
It feels like a claim against free speech. Yuzu makes an emulator and states it can play Switch games. That is a statement. If others illegally trade binaries, that’s not the emulator’s fault. By attacking them, it feels like the only thing “wrong” was making the emulator available. Caveat - IANAL.
racl101 3y ago
Of course they are.
jamesear 3y ago
The only comment of someone saying they had used Yuzu for piracy has been flagged, and is no longer visible. This might HN readers a skewed perspective on how much Yuzu is used for piracy. I have many acquaintances/friends in different circles, with the means to pay, who use Yuzu for piracy. There are dedicated forums of people who coordinate on how to do this. Emulation is great as a means to study or play backups, but its also fair that Nintendo has legitimate business interest in curtailing this. IANAL, and have no idea how their case against Yuzu developers will go.
- MyFedora 3y ago
  I don't think Nintendo's argument that Yuzu's primary use case is piracy holds any merit. Nintendo is quite literally a part of the reason why people pirate Switch games they already own. What do you have to do to legally play Switch games on Yuzu? Oh, idk... * Jailbreak your Switch. * Dump your decryption keys. * Dump your games. * Never update your Switch ever again. * Pray Nintendo doesn't shove an update down your throat. * Void your warranty. * Hope Nintendo won't brick your Switch. How many people would use Yuzu legally if it weren't for Nintendo's anti-consumer practices? Nintendo can't just argue that Yuzu is made for piracy when Nintendo pushes people to piracy who legally own the Switch and Switch games in my opinion.
  - infotainment 3y ago
    I feel like you’re undermining your own argument here. Yes, it’s exceedingly complex to “legally” play your own games on Yuzu. This bolsters the argument that Yuzu is primarily targeting users of pirated content, because essentially no one would bother doing all those steps you listed.
    - jamesear 3y ago
      I think MyFedora is suggesting that even if Yuzu's primary usecase is piracy, that's because it's so difficult to use Yuzu in the legit manner (due to Nintendo's DRM on the console/game you own).
tombert 3y ago
Yuzu is open source isn’t it? Nintendo can’t be completely incompetent here; if they get Yuzu shut down someone will inevitably fork it, and they have to know this. Presumably this is a play to try and establish precedent. They know that this lawsuit means nothing in itself, even if they win, but it can then be used to go after Retroarch or Higan or Mupen64 or Dolphin. This is bad.
- catwoe 3y ago
  I honestly cannot wrap my head around the need for an LLC. It's an open source project, why would you need a company?
  - tombert 3y ago
    IANAL, but if there's a risk of being sued by a big corporation because you're making a product that they believe is stealing from them, wouldn't it make sense to shield yourself personally from being sued? Like, if I write a piece of software that does something innocuous, such as indexing files or something, then I probably wouldn't bother getting any kind of LLC, but I'm very unlikely to get sued over that. Nintendo, however, is famously litigious, has made their stance on emulation very clear, and has no problem going after individuals who dare to defy them. I think doing all the development through an LLC can limit Nintendo going after the individuals.
  - deleted 3y ago
    [deleted]
  - Klonoar 3y ago
    If you’re accepting money somewhere, an LLC has potential advantages. It’s not an outlandish idea at all.
  - frio 3y ago
    Open Source doesn't necessarily mean free of charge, but even when it does (most of the time), plenty of people still choose to pay for open source products today (eg. Red Hat). A product being open source doesn't mean the people working on it shouldn't be paid somehow; in particular, Yuzu do early releases and other closed-source-ish things (which is one of the reasons Nintendo is able to bring something to court here).
_jplc 3y ago
Pirate everything Nintendo produces.
- Cub3 3y ago
  Yep, this, they've been so anti-consumer for so long.
- Janicc 3y ago
  The funny thing is that I really would've liked to own a switch but my absolute hatred of Nintendo has kept me from doing it
  - kevincox 3y ago
    Personally I don't want the physical hardware. But I would be happy to buy the games if they just ran in PC ...and Nintendo wasn't a giant asshole. Of course if they started selling their games for PC that may be a sign of enough change for me to reset my asshole status for them.
- theshackleford 3y ago
  I’m sure there is no world in which you wouldn’t find an excuse to a justification to something for nothing.
- stuckkeys 3y ago
  I jailbroke the original switch with unpatched gpu exploit. I had also bought few games with it. I try to setup parental controls and all the sudden the device is banned. That made me mad. I bought the device. They require internet service for parental controls and set play time. Nintendo is a giant penuz. i hope their content gets pirated into oblivion after this scenario ( going after yuzu ).
atum47 3y ago
It's unbelievable how much I loath Nintendo these days. Hard to believe I use to love them growing up. I got a Nintendo switch last year from Walmart. The f*ing came used (apparently someone in the store played some Zelda in it, put it back in the box and sold to me as new). Walmart said they couldn't do anything when I emailed them about the issue. Anyways, the switch came with no games. Nothing. Zero. So, naively I subscribed to the Nintendo online service, which I believed would be like Xbox game pass. Not at all. The service only let you play online. The only thing i got out of it was some SNES emulation. Moves like that and the ones this news cover pushes fans away.
- Kranar 3y ago
  Sounds like you have an issue with Walmart. Why would Nintendo be at fault because you bought an opened package? As for your other comment, you can buy a Switch bundled with games or without games. Looks like you either bought the standalone console or the person you claimed sold you the used Switch took the game.
- infotainment 3y ago
  Walmart has like the most lenient return policy imaginable (as you evidently found out). Why would you not have just returned your previously opened Switch at the regular returns counter?
- throwawayk7h 3y ago
  Don't forget that Nintendo put Gary Bowser -- a man in a wheelchair, with two kids -- in prison for a year. Now he owes 30% of his income to Nintendo for the rest of his life. He made Switch mod chips. Until Nintendo walks that back, I will pirate all future nintendo games and donate the cover price to Bowser's gofundme.
  - mitthrowaway2 3y ago
    I am not a lawyer but a prison sentence doesn't seem like a possible outcome from a civil lawsuit. That must have been a criminal case against him, which means he was prosecuted by the state / the Crown, rather than Nintendo. I don't know the details though.
thih9 3y ago
Steam deck and other handheld PC platforms should help here. End result should be: emulator being legal as it is now, with ROMs being easy to purchase and download via official sources. This sounds like a dream; but given GOG’s success I guess it could actually happen.
holoduke 3y ago
I have to admit. I am using it a lot. And my 8 and 4 year old sons as well. We do have a switch with some games. But the pc with the Yuzu emulator can play many games in 4k 60hz. Only possible since the nvidia 40 series. The games load faster and its easier to install cheats. Its time for Nintendo to release a new switch. One that can only be emulated once the 6080ti is out.
zucker42 3y ago
Two paragraphs into the legal complaint[1], Nintendo says such BS as: > A video game emulator is a piece of software that allows users to unlawfully play pirated video games that were published only for a specific console on a general-purpose computing device [1] https://www.scribd.com/document/709016504/Nintendo-of-America-Inc-v-Tropic-Haze-LLC-1-24-Cv-00082-No-1-D-R-I-Feb-26-2024 https://www.scribd.com/document/709016504/Nintendo-of-Americ...
- joemi 3y ago
  Why is that BS? It's true. It's not the only use of an emulator, but it's the primary use.
  - zucker42 3y ago
    A more accurate rewording of Nintendo's statement (keeping their point of view): > A video emulator is piece of software that allows a user to run a video game on a platform different from that for which is was written. Many people use emulators to play unlawfully obtained pirated games. Wording something as definition implies that the statement both contains no falsehoods and is complete. Saying that the purpose of an emulator is to play pirated games is not true. I use an emulator to play Super Smash Bros Melee on my computer, with the ROM obtained from the disk I own. People have modded the Super Smash Bros Melee game to allow for online play, something that would be impossible without an emulator. People used emulators to find a bug in Ocarina of Time that would allow them to beat the game (played on original hardware) faster. But the statement is written to confuse a non-technical fact finder into thinking that the only purpose of an emulator is to play a video game without paying for it, or to help others to do so. And it's done so because that Nintendo doesn't believe that you own the game you buy from it.
catwoe 3y ago
Why do you need an LLC to run an emulator project?
- bahmboo 3y ago
  So when it gets sued you have some protection personally. But doing crime with the LLC probably "pierces the veil" to some extent. IANAL.
- iteria 3y ago
  They probably forsaw this coming and wanted protection in case of a lawsuit.
sircastor 3y ago
I feel like there ought to be a sliding scale of cost associated with filing a law suit. If you're a very large company suing a very small company, it should be very expensive to file. Expensive enough to make your lawyers encourage you to think really hard about whether or not this is actually a threat to your business. Of course, applying that to the real world would obviously fall apart quickly. It's not hard to think through loopholes. It just seems to easy to crush a small company/group who are just doing something you don't like.
catwoe 3y ago
I guess it's a matter of whether you own your hardware (and included software) or just own the hardware and a license to use the software that comes with it in a certain way.
deminature 3y ago
I wish they'd offer a legal avenue to play Switch games at 4K/60 instead of 720p/20-30. Anyone looking for a higher fidelity experience than the 2017 Switch hardware is able to provide is forced to use software like Yuzu to enable it. Even Sony has started porting their crown jewel games to PC to enormous commercial success, allowing players with high-end hardware to legally enjoy a higher fidelity experience, but Nintendo is stuck in the past.
- xnx 3y ago
  I've read rumors, and it seems very plausible, that Nintendo's next console might be able to play Switch games at higher resolution and/or framerate.
  - bigpapikite 3y ago
    That's probably the case (as I don't know what else would make it worth buying), but the ultimate problem with Nintendo will still remain. They're bullies and they get away with it because they make some of the most consistently high quality first party games. Microsoft took the plunge first, but everyone is realizing that the future is an open platform. Turns out if you make a quality game and make it widely available people will buy it (surprise). But they're married to the idea of restricting how their titles are played, which is only going to continue to turn people off.
    - Panzer04 3y ago
      It's the difference between being a publisher/game developer and a hardware company. Hardware companies see games as a means to sell consoles. Game developers see platforms as a means to sell games. If you're coming at things from the perspective of a hardware maker it makes sense to be as restrictive as possible, since that provides the differentiation that sells your (overpriced) hardware. In addition, if your hardware becomes common then you can charge game developers for access (more broadly, this is what Apple does, mostly) From the game developer side, it makes sense to be on as many platforms as physically possible, since that's just more places to make sales and money.
pipeline_peak 3y ago
> Nintendo is now seeking a trial by jury Nintendo is clearly relying on the fact that the average person would assume emulators are illegal. Also a Patreon account is a poor argument.
DinaCoder99 3y ago
[flagged]
- crtasm 3y ago
  Tears of the Kingdom ?
EMIRELADERO 3y ago
A ton of people seem to think the DMCA is the end of Yuzu, but I believe it's actually its salvation, particularily Section 1201(f): (1)Notwithstanding the provisions of subsection (a)(1)(A), a person who has lawfully obtained the right to use a copy of a computer program may circumvent a technological measure that effectively controls access to a particular portion of that program for the sole purpose of identifying and analyzing those elements of the program that are necessary to achieve interoperability of an independently created computer program with other programs, and that have not previously been readily available to the person engaging in the circumvention, to the extent any such acts of identification and analysis do not constitute infringement under this title. (2)Notwithstanding the provisions of subsections (a)(2) and (b), a person may develop and employ technological means to circumvent a technological measure, or to circumvent protection afforded by a technological measure, in order to enable the identification and analysis under paragraph (1), or for the purpose of enabling interoperability of an independently created computer program with other programs, if such means are necessary to achieve such interoperability, to the extent that doing so does not constitute infringement under this title. (3)The information acquired through the acts permitted under paragraph (1), and the means permitted under paragraph (2), may be made available to others if the person referred to in paragraph (1) or (2), as the case may be, provides such information or means solely for the purpose of enabling interoperability of an independently created computer program with other programs, and to the extent that doing so does not constitute infringement under this title or violate applicable law other than this section. "Independently-created computer program" in this case being Yuzu, "other programs" being Switch games.
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
- redder23 3y ago
  GitHub created this defense fund after they came after youtube-dl. Not very Micro$oft, but they will probably help when it comes to that, but so far they did not file for DMCA takedown in GitHub. Maybe they did and Gihub changed the rules and requires some court judgement to take things down first?
  - 3y ago
aussieguy1234 3y ago
This is unfortunate. The switch is probably coming to the end of its life soon. As soon as Nintendos next gen (announced or not) console is released, the switch will be a legacy system and emulation is important for archiving purposes. This does make it less likely that i'll be buying any Nintendo products in the future.
- a_vanderbilt 3y ago
  I suspect that the "Switch 2" is going to be like the GameCube -> Wii, where the hardware is backward compatible and largely just a faster version of the previous generation. Essentially being a suped-up Switch means Yuzu could immediately work much better with whatever they come out with next. I think that is why they are going after Yuzu now, to try and get ahead of another Dolphin situation occurring much earlier in the lifecycle. Should Nintendo get a favorable ruling, this would open a huge can of legal worms for the tech industry as a whole.
  - ambichook 3y ago
    has nvidia worked on the architecture behind the tegra in the last few years? i'm not certain that's possible tbh
    - a_vanderbilt 3y ago
      I primarily work with implementing high-level CUDA, which enjoys a lot of attention. My impression is that while breaking changes exist, they are worth the effort to port forward. I cannot tell you how they treat game designers, but my perspective is that it is unfortunately still way ahead of ROCm. I could see Nintendo making it work for the titles they deem strategically worthy.
sergiotapia 3y ago
Can someone run the actual public filing through AI to get the summary and highlights? https://www.scribd.com/document/709016504/Nintendo-of-America-Inc-v-Tropic-Haze-LLC-1-24-Cv-00082-No-1-D-R-I-Feb-26-2024?irpid=10078&sharedid=skimlinks.com https://www.scribd.com/document/709016504/Nintendo-of-Americ...
devwastaken 3y ago
If you are ever going to make something where you may be sued, you must take precautions to protect yourself. Any website you use can be compelled to hand over your info. Never use personal details, always use trustable VPN's. It's unfortunate, but remember that corps don't play fair, and they will turn "grey area" against you by having more money than you. They can find the right jurisdiction to get what they want. That said, Nintendo is going to have to point to a specific DRM bypass. If they can't, yuzu should win.
1970-01-01 3y ago
Lawyers always kill the fun. Piracy and emulation is still legal in many other countries, however. Emulator projects should always be hosted in piracy-friendly nations. https://www.reddit.com/r/Piracy/comments/b6rpzx/here_are_some_of_the_main_countries_where_its/ https://www.reddit.com/r/Piracy/comments/b6rpzx/here_are_som...
- saltymug76 3y ago
  Emulation is legal in the US. Nintendo deserves to have their games pirated over this anti consumer overreach.
  - 1970-01-01 3y ago
    That's not how it works at all. If lawyers are applying pressure, the legally is still tied up in the courts, and unfortunately that particular emulation project isn't legal (in reality) until the matter is fully settled.
jovial_cavalier 3y ago
Last I checked, you needed to actually own a switch and a downloadable version of the game to use yuzu... has this changed?
- knicholes 3y ago
  Oh, I didn't know you had to own a Switch. I thought you just had to own the game?
  - jovial_cavalier 3y ago
    Yeah, like the guy above says. They don’t actually circumvent the DRM. They just get the switch’s key. I think there are only as many keys as there are switches, so while you could probably buy it on the gray market, with just yuzu and a site that hosts roms, you can’t do any pirating
- crtasm 3y ago
  You don't. I'm not aware of a way an emulator could confirm you bought the files you give it to run.
- danhor 3y ago
  You need the decryption keys, and yuzu only gives you instructions on how to extract them from your own switch (and is careful to stress that point). But nothing stops you from searching for the keys on the web and getting them from there.
cuckatoo 3y ago
I was not aware that Yuzu worked well enough to be worth suing over. Thanks for the tip.
mattigames 3y ago
Link to support the Yuzu developer team on Patreon: https://www.patreon.com/yuzuteam https://www.patreon.com/yuzuteam
tanh 3y ago
While I’ll defend the right to make emulators, I do think it should not be published for a console actively sold in stores.
jokoon 3y ago
I recently pointed out that Nintendo is not selling new wii consoles, so people cannot play Mario Galaxy 1 or 2 unless they buy an used console. Apparently they released the game in some limited version they don't sell anymore. It makes zero sense, it's like they are asking people to pirate their games.
ken47 3y ago
What did Yuzu expect? If they’re going to challenge a company of Nintendo’s stature in this manner, then they should be prepared for legal war. And what’s Nintendo supposed to do here? Most here would do the same thing if they were in Nintendo’s shoes. They have employees to pay. Don’t hate the player, hate the game.
- saltymug76 3y ago
  Threatening a multi billion dollar company by making an emulator that contains zero infringing code? Give me a break. Nintendo needs to be squashed in court and brought back down to earth.
ApolloFortyNine 3y ago
When the game isn't be sold any more, along with the console, emulation makes sense. But the switch emulation for at least 2 years now has been more than good enough to run games of a current gen system, and you're absolutely kidding yourself if you think any meaningful percentage own the game. The emulator also requires Nintendo data they're not actually allowed to ship (there's a number of resources to download it though), but they specifically coded to support it. Imo switch 2 is coming and it'll likely be almost the same system just beefier, so going after the emulators makes sense for them.
- GabrielTFS 3y ago
  Legally it doesn't really matter at all whether or not the console is currently commercialized, at least from precedents like Sony v. Connectix (Connectix was selling a commercial (literally in shelves) emulator directly competing with the PlayStation while it was being commercialized and won the lawsuit Sony filed against them)
  - ApolloFortyNine 3y ago
    A quick glance shows that they developed their own Bios to do this, Yuzu specifically requires you to insert a copy of the Switch's firmware, it won't work otherwise. It seems a bit grey as that would mean it's really the users who broke the law, but at the same time, the piece of software is quite literally useless without it. Even if they had their own absolutely terrible firmware with bad compatibility it'd be an easier defense to me. As is, their code is useless without an illegal-to-add addition.
- Lammy 3y ago
  > for at least 2 years now has been more than good enough to run games of a current gen system To be fair that's impressive but nothing new. I 'member running N64 games with my Voodoo card in 1999 when GameCube wouldn't be out for two more years: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/UltraHLE https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/UltraHLE
- Liquix 3y ago
  > and you're absolutely kidding yourself if you think any meaningful percentage own the game. respectfully disagree. nintendo has fought hard to capture the casual/normie demographic and they have consistently sold more switches than M$ has sold xbox ones every month since launch. switch emulation is alive and well but doesn't jeopardize their position as the non-techie's console of choice. therefore they have taken to only pursuing legal action when an emulator is being packaged up for the masses to one-click install on steam
bassiek 3y ago
Are they talking about this stuff ? Right here ? > https://en.btdig.com/search?order=2&q=%22Complete+Play+Nintendo+Switch%22 https://en.btdig.com/search?order=2&q=%22Complete+Play+Ninte... Better avoid it then.
saintradon 3y ago
Regardless of whatever your take on emulation is - can we all agree that it's actually awful there isn't some organized archive of old video games? The library of congress supposedly has 173 million items in there - you'd think they'd have an archive.
Cloudef 3y ago
Ah yes, the same company that sued individual to pay portition of his salary to the company rest of his life. The same company that sends spies to spy on jailbreakers/hackers, watching their daily life. Search for Gary Bowser and Nintendo ninjas (leaked documents) if you are unfamiliar
mise_en_place 3y ago
It’ll be interesting to see how this plays out. Yuzu on its own is just a generic ARM emulator, right? Hope they don’t start going after QEMU next.
- johnny22 3y ago
  no, it's not. it has to match the switch hardware virtually and also whatever the switch os is.
giancarlostoro 3y ago
This will just bring more attention to a perfectly legal emulator. Even if they somehow mess up what's already set in stone, people will fork Yuzu.
Zuiii 3y ago
Why isn't this covered by antislap? Yuzu should at least counter sue them. Why is the law so broken when it comes to IP?! Devs who don't want to deal with Nintendo's nonsensical delusions should start their emulation projects on tor. When the law doesn't protect people from those who have a long history of abusing it to punish legal operations, perhaps people should take basic precautions to protect themselves from both the nutjobs and the law. Maybe what law abiding developers need is a deepweb Github.
- rjsdev 3y ago
  Deepweb GitHub is a fun concept. Sign me up.
MyFirstSass 3y ago
This unfortunately makes me loose all respect for Nintendo. Attacking an open source passion project with no money while they themselves don't care about supporting their own hardware fully in any way.
adamsmolinski 3y ago
Time to send some money through that Patreon.
dingi 3y ago
Never heard of Yuzu up until now. Thanks Nintendo for bringing it to the attention. I'll give it a go.
ryzvonusef 3y ago
Nothing Nintendo can do can shut the emulation genie... because China. A lot of Chinese sff pc/handheld producers (GPD/Minisforum/Ayaneo/Beelink etc)[1] are now creating device with the explicit understanding that these devices will be used for emulation, and are creating devices as such. even if Yuzu is banned...Chinese will take over, and nothing any american/japanese game manufacturers can do to stop it. ---- [1] AyaNeo literally created a DS clone called the Flip DS... doesn't get more explicit then that: https://www.ayaneo.com/product/AYANEO-FLIP-DS.html https://www.ayaneo.com/product/AYANEO-FLIP-DS.html
- Lammy 3y ago
  I know someone who uses a GPD WIN 3 as their primary computer and really loves it. Seems nice from the little I got to interact with it. I also like how the GPD WIN 4 looks like a giant PSVita lol
- trollied 3y ago
  They're crapping themselves because somebody has just released [1] a cartridge that lets you run "backups" stored on a SD card on an actual physical switch. Each cart has a unique key though, so I imagine Nintendo will go on a big banning spree. [1] https://migswitch.com/ https://migswitch.com/
  - rbits 3y ago
    Oh yeah, from what I've heard using that will get you banned instantly
    - albrewer 3y ago
      They can only ban you if they find 2 copies of the same cart running at the same time. This hardware, for all intents and purposes, looks to the Switch like a physical cartridge.
  - ryzvonusef 3y ago
    True, but not sure you will be using Yuzu for that, seems slightly unrelated to the Yuzu witch hunt.
shmerl 3y ago
So they are trying to use the garbage DMCA 1201? That "law" should be burned with fire becasue it's unconstitutional.
8K832d7tNmiQ 3y ago
Gonna bet it's actually because of the DRM implementation on Yuzu that got it into trouble.
- cylemons 3y ago
  DRM protecting yuzu itself?
pipes 3y ago
Not sure how I feel about the developers making 30k a month in patreon donations for writing an emulator for a current gen console. Nintendo might have a point here. Edit: that said, I did pay 5 dollars (or something like that) for redream, which is a Dreamcast emulator. But in my mind at least, this doesn't deny the developers of the games I play on it the money they would get from a sale. Because it is a dead platform. I know for a fact that when I pirated Dreamcast games back in the day, I would have paid for at for some of them at least. I don't feel great about that. It was one of my favourite consoles and I probably aided in it's untimely demise.
- GabrielTFS 3y ago
  Legally it doesn't matter - in fact you could say the courts practically endorse making emulators to compete with existing platforms, given quotes like this from Sony v. Connectix (where Sony attempted to sue Connectix for making a commercial (sold on shelves) emulator for the PlayStation which was then being actively commercialized): > The Virtual Game Station is a legitimate competitor in the market for platforms on which Sony and Sony-licensed games can be played. See Sega, 977 F.2d at 1522-23. For this reason, some economic loss by Sony as a result of this competition does not compel a finding of no fair use. Sony understandably seeks control over the market for devices that play games Sony produces or licenses. The copyright law, however, does not confer such a monopoly. See id. at 1523-24 ("[A]n attempt to monopolize the market by making it impossible for others to compete runs counter to the statutory purpose of promoting creative expression and cannot constitute a strong equitable basis for resisting the invocation of the fair use doctrine."). - 9th Circuit Court of Appeals, ruling in Sony Computer Entertainment v. Connectix Corp.
- johnnyanmac 3y ago
  would it change if they were making less money? or emulating a previous generation? Or if that 30k was split between 100 devs and is basically a small tip per month instead of a very comfortable wage for a single dev?
  - slily 3y ago
    It would. If they weren't enabling current-gen piracy and profiting off of actively exploited IPs, they wouldn't get a tenth of that income, maybe not a hundredth, looking at what other projects earn. Plenty of top emulator developers spend their nights and weekends on hardware research and low-level programming and get zilch for their efforts. I could name several who deserve support more than Yuzu, but they don't withhold updates behind Patreon subscriptions, focus on new platforms to hijack market share, or self-promote by listing all the games you can pirate on their programs - in other words they're passion projects, not money-making enterprises, so far from making thousands a month, most of those projects are lucky to get a fiver here and there from an appreciative user. Anyone familiar with the scene can tell you that Yuzu makes that money because they actively seek it. The fact that it's a highly profitable product focused on enabling illegal activity and not a passion project is what's uncomfortable.
_imnothere 3y ago
Things like this and companies like Nintendo must be stopped, it's both morally and legally correct to emulate when people actually owns the machine and cartridges.
- aurareturn 3y ago
  Disagreed. I'm guessing that 99.99% of Switch emulator users do not own the cartridges. They're stealing, which is not only morally wrong, but legally wrong. Nintendo has the right to protect their IP and they have the right to make money. Furthermore, I disagree in general that it's morally and legally correct to emulate something you purchased.
  - wiz21c 3y ago
    That is, Yuzu in itself doesn't do anything. You need Nintendo's IP to run Yuzu, so Nintendo should blame those who steal their IP. Now, the real question is: did Yuzu's creator have illegal access to Nintendo's IP to write Yuzu ?
  - hengistbury 3y ago
    Regardless of the moral question, digital piracy is not really "stealing"
    - loup-vaillant 3y ago
      Indeed it isn't: digital goods are non-rival, and as such fundamentally un-steal-able. Property as we usually understand it simply doesn't apply to them. There's still copyright infringement, but "unlawful breach of a state-granted monopoly" doesn't sound nearly as bad as stealing. You wouldn't steal a car, would you?
  - fartsucker69 3y ago
    what's morally problematic about emulating something you already own?
    - 3y ago
nicman23 3y ago
too bad it is open source, ain't it?
hakube 3y ago
Nintendon't with the usual stuff
eemil 3y ago
I wish people would hold Nintendo to the same standards as Sony and Microsoft. But because they make the best games, everyone looks past their anti-consumer BS and permanently-stuck-in-the-90s corporate executives.
postexitus 3y ago
Oh there is good emulation of Switch on powerful Switch-like devices? I will definitely give it a try. Thanks Nintendo!
rnts08 3y ago
Nintendo does a nintendo? surprised_pikachu.png
0dayz 3y ago
Its really annoying how Nintendo keep on thinking that western law is equal to Japanese law. Afaik, in Japan you do have absurd copyright law to the point where Nintendo can sue anything and anyone doing emulator or hobby project.

903 points by brandrick 3y ago

You can bump it off github with a lawsuit but you cant stop an open source project from being built if developers want to build it.

tristor 3y ago

Ironically, I own more than one Switch and all the games I play using an emulator. After the Steam Deck came out, I just preferred using the emulator on the Steam Deck because it allowed me to backup and share save files, so I had the convenience of a handheld with the ability to play on my gaming PC at home and in both cases have performance unrestricted. When the Switch OLED came out I was hoping it would be a performance boost also, but unfortunately that wasn't the case so I didn't buy one. I /really/ really like the Switch hardware. I think the Switch is arguably one of the best consoles ever made, especially for it's ergonomics and UX. The detachable joycons, the subtle integration of motion control, and it's light weight with good battery life made it an exceptionally good gaming product. I truly love my Switch(es), but they are very long in the tooth in 2024, running off what is basically a 2017 smartphone hardware. If Nintendo releases a Switch 2 with full games backwards compatibility, I'd prefer to play on first-party hardware vs using an emulator, but from my perspective I just want the best gaming experience, I don't care about their greedy interpretation of the law. Software is software and hardware is hardware, it makes no sense to restrict emulation in any way as long as you legally own the games.

coryfklein 3y ago

I love video games. I grew up with Super Mario Bros on the NES and since the 2000's I feel absolutely spoiled by the burgoening and diverse indie game industry. I can hardly believe that today I can mix and match genres, and the fact that the genre "deck building city builder roquelike" (looking at you Against the Storm) even exists is amazing. This whole industry exists because society has made guarantees that you can in fact license your game for sale and be rewarded for all your hard work. I'm glad that piracy has been far enough on the edges that people still find it worth their time to invest years into dreaming, crafting, and delivering wonderful new games every day. Where does this leave console emulators? I agree with everyone here that there is nothing inherently wrong with building them. But practically speaking, they do in fact significantly lower the barrier to "I'm going to play this game without paying the creators for it." If you, like me, love video games and want there to be a healthy and thriving market for them, then what is the right and correct set of rules that we can agree on as a society? I don't think banning emulators makes sense, but it bothers me how much the hacker community completely lacks any sense of nuance for how their "fun hacker project" can have a detrimental effect on the very thing they love. If the creators of these emulators are doing it out of a love and passion for video games, should they not also encourage users to pay for them? I know Nintendo isn't popular around here, and this particular action of theirs seems overreaching even to me, but if I have to pick a side I'm choosing the one that has some semblance of a future for video games.

GabrielTFS 3y ago
Yuzu certainly doesn't seem like a project that promotes piracy. They've made it very clear that they do not endorse piracy in any capacity, and in fact anyone found to be pirating games on e.g. their Discord server gets an insta-ban from what I've heard.
- coryfklein 3y ago
  I haven't seen any indication that they promote it, but I'm guessing that something on the order of 98% of instances of Yuzu currently running on CPUs have pirated content in them. If the tool is used primarily for illegal purposes, it seems it would be good and laudable for the creators of it to do something to counter balance that beyond simply not endorsing said behavior? Again, not saying they are morally or legally obligated to do anything beyond "not endorse", but I assume the creators like video games and want there to be a market for them, and that they are aware of how the tool they create erodes said market.
  - GabrielTFS 3y ago
    I don't really see any measures that they could feasibly put in place that wouldn't be one of: - Incredibly easy to get around - Extremely cumbersome for legitimate users (especially given I would bet it would get workarounds that are way more convenient for pirates within hours of the measures being put in place) - Require laughably massive amounts of resources to put in place

Woshiwuja 3y ago

Nintendo needs to stop with this bs

ramijames 3y ago

Can't say I'm shocked. Nintendo's lawyers are notoriously litigous.

indigodaddy 3y ago
I think lawyers in general are very often, yes, litigious. Perhaps you meant to say their employer and/or client, Nintendo, is notoriously litigious.
- nicce 3y ago
  Its not the lawyers but those who pay for them to do what is asked.
  - indigodaddy 3y ago
    Correct, that was the point I was making
deleted 3y ago
[deleted]

robbiet480 3y ago

I knew that Patreon would bite them some day. Any time money comes into a "offensive" open source project, whoever feels they are getting hurt can make a claim a lot easier. Somewhat surprised they haven't yet sued Ryujinx (the other Switch emulator project) for also having a Patreon.

GabrielTFS 3y ago
It doesn't change much legally to my knowledge, given that Sony v. Connectix was about a commercial, for-profit emulator (literally sold in stores) that directly competed with a console being commercialized at the same time (the PlayStation) and Sony lost in that case, with the 9th Circuit declaring it was fair competition and legal for Connectix to emulate PlayStation games.
- MomoXenosaga 3y ago
  Keep in mind that it's not about winning or losing in court. Most people don't have the money to fight. So they give up as soon as they get a letter from a lawyer. Justice costs money.
A4ET8a8uTh0 3y ago
I am not part of that scene, but I am sympathetic to emulation. Is there a notable difference between Yuzu and other switch emulators? I wonder if there are other reasons than Patreon ( money changing hands ) or there were other considerations?
- johnnyanmac 3y ago
  Not particularly. But it's the biggest fish so it's the biggest target.
- deelowe 3y ago
  Yuzu has amazing compatibility. I'm guessing it's getting too good for Nintendo. Their concerns with TotK are not without merit. I played it on Yuzu (on PC) because it was a much better experience than on the switch. Within a few days of the game being out, there were resolution and fps patches which made the game run much better. That said, I'm not sure how Yuzu can be blamed for TotK piracy. Guessing Nintendo is throwing a hail mary here and hoping they can connect the dots during discovery. I hope this doesn't spell the end of Yuzu, because I use it to play switch games that I own on my steam deck.

tamimio 3y ago

Link is not working? Any archive link?

goryramsy 3y ago
Same here… HN doing what it’s best at…
enzanki_ars 3y ago
https://archive.is/LvxxW https://archive.is/LvxxW

theultdev 3y ago

This is a pretty big case to watch. Are there any cases of emulators being sued successfully? A user being able to provide keys and a rom from which they could own or be homebrew doesn't seem to violate copyright to me. edit: seems the consensus is once via legal fund attrition, but the case went to the emulator authors in the end.

monocasa 3y ago
I don't believe so (the Sony v. Bleem cases mainly ended up in favor of Bleem), but also I don't think anyone has tried since the DMCA. It looks like Nintendo is taking a 'trafficking in circumvention device' legal strategy as opposed to a strictly anti-emulator legal strategy.
- stonogo 3y ago
  DMCA was in effect the year before Sony first sued Bleem -- and it's notable that Bleem mostly won the lawsuits, but legal fees bankrupted them anyway.
  - monocasa 3y ago
    The DMCA was in effect but not applicable to the case since the DRM scheme of the PS1 doesn't block access to the files of the disc, but instead simply attempts to block the usage of non DRMed media on legitimate PS1s.
- Natsu 3y ago
  It's funny, the game companies lost the emulator court cases. But the companies behind those emulators still went out of business.
  - hn_acker 3y ago
    Right. What I hate about copyright is that winning a copyright infringement lawsuit with a fair use defense (fair use being by definition not infringement [1]) will still bankrupt you because of the legal fees. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lenz_v._Universal_Music_Corp.#Circuit_court_ruling https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lenz_v._Universal_Music_Corp.#...

fzeroracer 3y ago

Looking over the legal document, realistically, their arguments are so damaging from a software perspective that they should lose. IANAL, but from skimming the legal document: The two major notions are that Yuzu violates Nintendo's copyright [1] by allowing people to play unauthorized copies [2]. In order to do so it allows for bypassing Nintendo's encryption (by taking in the keys, it does not embed the keys in the software) it falls under a violation of the DMCA [3]. Essentially, trying to argue that the keys are copyrighted. Additionally, they claim that every user that has either dumped Nintendo games they lawfully owned and play in Yuzu, or have pirated the roms and played in Yuzu have violated copyright and thus Yuzu should pay up [4]. [1] "In effect, Yuzu turns general computing devices into tools for massive intellectual property infringement of Nintendo and others’ copyrighted work" [2] "In other words, without Yuzu’s decryption of Nintendo’s encryption, unauthorized copies of games could not be played on PCs or Android devices. " [3] "Recognizing the threats faced by copyright owners like Nintendo in the age of digital piracy, Congress enacted the Anti-Circumvention and Anti-Trafficking provisions of the Digital Millennium Copyright Act (“DMCA”), making it illegal to circumvent or traffic in devices that circumvent technological measures put into place by copyright owners to protect against unlawful access to and copying of copyrighted works." [4] "On information and belief, Yuzu users have (1) dumped Nintendo games they have lawfully purchased and copied the game ROMs into Yuzu; and (2) obtained Nintendo games online from pirate websites and copied those game ROMs into Yuzu. Each such reproduction constitutes a violation of 17 U.S.C. § 501(a) for which Plaintiff is entitled to damages under 17 U.S.C. § 504 and injunctive relief under § 502"

Acrobatic_Road 3y ago
"On information and belief" - legalese for "we have no evidence".
- aidenn0 3y ago
  Actually legalese for "by secondhand knowledge" so not "no evidence" but "no direct evidence"
  - 3y ago

lenova 3y ago

Google Cache link: http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache%3Ahttps%3A%2F%2Foverkill.wtf%2Fnintendo-sue-yuzu-emulator%2F http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache%3Ahttps...

Springtime 3y ago

> The legal document claims that over a million copies of last year's The Legend of Zelda: Tears of the Kingdom were downloaded prior to the game's official retail release. As a result, the company is now seeking damages and is demanding that the Yuzu emulator is shut down. Quite the leap from existing as an emulator to inexplicably being held liable for some independent leak.

a_vanderbilt 3y ago
It is also fully their fault the game was leaked early. They released the game carts to buyers too early, and their system5 crypto scheme was already broken by the time the game came out. Yuzu didn't break system5, nor do they ship the keys needed to decrypt the dumped game files. They did release patches which specifically fixed issues with Zelda, and that wasn't a good look legally - but it isn't illegal to fix inaccuracies with the software.
- GabrielTFS 3y ago
  I have not heard of anything indicating they themselves released patches fixing issues with ToTK - only that other people made patches for that which the Yuzu team refused to accept until ToTK release. I don't see how random people making patches for an open source project should make the project liable for the existence of the patches.
  - a_vanderbilt 3y ago
    That's a great clarification. I think you bring up a great point.
deleted 3y ago
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gjsman-1000 3y ago
Not necessarily. It's fairly easy to prove that if the emulator did not exist, the leak would be fairly inconsequential; and considering how easy it is to show the percentage of pirating users versus legitimate users (probably 95%+), it's not a good look. There's also the issue that, unlike prior emulators, Yuzu risks running afoul of DMCA anti-trafficking provisions for circumvention devices and software that uses circumvention devices. So, while per se emulating the Switch might be legal, decrypting the games may be illegal (as would software that is useless if it is unable to do that decryption). Edit: Strongly recommend reading my follow up comment explaining historical precedent: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=39530558 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=39530558

rottencupcakes 3y ago

[flagged]

gjsman-1000 3y ago
> Does Nintendo benefit that much from the sales of the Switch hardware? How many businesses does Sony have for income? Mountains. They could lose PlayStation and it would only be a dent. How many businesses does Microsoft have for income? Well, they could literally lose Xbox, and it wouldn't even be a dent. How many businesses does Nintendo have for income? One. And if they lose it, they're done. I think it completely understandable they would be far more defensive considering that gaming is a corporate life and death matter; unlike the competition.
- johnnyanmac 3y ago
  You're right, but nit: Playstation is about 40% of Sony income. They can survive without PS, but it'd be a big hit losing that much of their market.
  - filleduchaos 3y ago
    That seems off according to Sony's financial report for FY2022 (https://www.sony.com/en/SonyInfo/IR/library/presen/er/pdf/22q4_supplement.pdf https://www.sony.com/en/SonyInfo/IR/library/presen/er/pdf/22...) - much closer to 30%. Still a massive blow to any company.
dartos 3y ago
So most console manufacturers take a loss on the console in exchange for controlling the economy of the console and creating a network effect for non cross play games. Nintendo is actually one of the few companies that make a profit (of a few cents) on their consoles. Every computer is also NOT the same nowadays. Modern operating systems abstract a lot of the differences away, but they’re there. Consoles give game devs a predictable platform to develop against and make guarantees for.
ToucanLoucan 3y ago

wetpaws 3y ago

[dead]

CaliforniaKarl 3y ago

I really recommend folks watch this, from a lawyer: https://youtu.be/wROQUZDCIMI https://youtu.be/wROQUZDCIMI “Why Are Emulators Legal? Dolphin vs. Nintendo, and the Fate of Dolphin Emulator”

gamepsys 3y ago

This is truly awful for the gaming community at large. If this case makes a ruling then it will most likely have an impact on all emulation projects. If Nintendo decides to sue your open source project, how do you mount a legal defense?

a_vanderbilt 3y ago
Adversarial interoperability is at risk should the circumvention argument be entertained by the court. Don't want a competitor making something compatible even though they are legally allowed? Just protect it with "effective" measures and they aren't allowed to even try to be compatible? The Switches system1-6 crypto schemes weren't terribly good. system5 even weakend it drammatically and trapdoored them into being permenently weaker. Problem is what constitutes an "effective" anti-circumvention according to the DMCA is not defined.
dartharva 3y ago
Awful for the emulation team? Yes. Awful for the gaming community at large? Eh, Nintendo products are not as dominating as you think. It is only available in select countries and has a hundred million users at best. Compare that to PC and mobile gaming, it is almost negligible. Though it would indeed be problematic if American courts manage to establish a precedent criminalizing emulators. That is indeed a real threat; American courts are not known for robustness or integrity.
- Sakos 3y ago
  > Though it would indeed be problematic if American courts manage to establish a precedent criminalizing emulators. That is indeed a real threat; American courts are not known for robustness or integrity. That's exactly why it's awful for the gaming community and honestly for human culture at large. Video game preservation isn't a thing without emulators. If Nintendo wins this, it means open season on every (major) contributor to an emulator and every emulation project. It means the end of the thriving emulation community and anybody interested in contributing except for a handful who are willing to risk being sued and/or live in a place where the US justice system has no reach. And it's not like Western Europe is particularly friendly to anything or anybody that circumvents DRM.

bakugo 3y ago

I hope Nintendo loses because it would be extremely harmful to emulation and software freedom as a whole if they didn't, but at the same time, I hope this knocks the whole "for-profit emulator" practice down a peg for a while. I think this is the same emulator that at one point tried asking people to pay a monthly subscription to play online.

cylemons 3y ago
Well in the famous Sony vs Bleem case in which Bleem won, Bleem was a fully commercial company selling their emulators. It's just that they created it in such a way that you still needed to own the ps1 game disk and insert it into your dreamcast.

deleted 3y ago

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lrvick 3y ago

I for one have exclusively used yuzu to play backups of games I legally purchased on a computer that can render them with higher frame-rates and quality than official switch hardware. This is my legal right, and Yuzu provided open source code to make this task easier for me. Nintendo is looking for a scapegoat here for their wasted investment in DRM technology.

deleted 3y ago
[deleted]
bassiek 3y ago
It's not about the 16fps frame drops, it's about the experience. Enjoy IT.... or find us in COURT !

egypturnash 3y ago

Huh, guess I better go make sure the copy on my Steam Deck is up to date. Not that I've actually bothered acquiring a single Switch ROM, there's so damn many neat little mid-sized games on the thing.

michaelmrose 3y ago

If anything this lawsuit makes it difficult to morally justify purchasing Nintendo hardware and supporting them. Having really enjoyed the first Zelda game on an emulator I would otherwise have really considered it.

favorited 3y ago
So you played their game on an emulator, and you "would otherwise have really considered" paying for their products (but you didn't). How are they losing out by alienating you?
- MyFedora 3y ago
  Nintendo lost out on future game and console sales from that person.
  - filleduchaos 3y ago
    Can you really claim to be a future customer of a product when you can get and are getting the value the product provides without having to pay for it? It's funny to me how every time the topic of piracy comes up, the world suddenly becomes so full of people who totally like giving companies money out of the sheer goodness of their hearts. And then by next week when it's time for another post about how open source maintainers get burnt out from a lack of material support, we all suddenly remember how human nature actually works.
    - MyFedora 3y ago
      Yep. My last Steam purchases include Cities: Skylines, Graveyard Keeper, Mini Metro, etc. All games I bought after I pirated and played them for a few hours. If I can't pirate a game, then I won't buy the game. Exceptions include games with a proper demo, like The Stanley Parable, or games that're love on first sight, like Lethal Company.
    - michaelmrose 3y ago
      I have 112 paid PC games in my steam library and over the years I've owned 6 consoles as well as building or buying many gaming computers. I'm definitely in the market for games and machines to play them.

GrabbinD33ze69 3y ago

Correct me if I’m wrong, but wasn’t Nintendo caught using an open source emulator for the switch, without any sort of credit to the authors after suing? If so, I have no empathy for them.

TillE 3y ago
Canoe (their SNES emulator) is definitely their own creation, it's very limited and can mostly only run the games they've released with it. I think it has some similar bugs to ZSNES, but that's just because they're both crappy low-accuracy emulators.
- Mad_ad 3y ago
  iirc they used a open-source emu on their snes/nes mini
  - Kirby64 3y ago
    Maybe you're thinking of the 'Playstation Classic' ? That uses PCSX directly and got some flack for it. See: https://arstechnica.com/gaming/2018/11/sony-using-open-source-emulator-for-playstation-classic-plug-and-play/ https://arstechnica.com/gaming/2018/11/sony-using-open-sourc...
  - chungy 3y ago
    Nintendo's NES/SNES emulators have always been their own in-house tools. The NES/SNES Classic consoles did run on Linux, and Nintendo published the operating system source code as required by the software licenses, appropriately. The emulators are not part of the source release, and very likely derived from the same ones used on Wii virtual console (possibly older, Animal Crossing had a NES emulator on the GameCube too). There's a popular myth floating around that Nintendo downloaded Super Mario Bros. off the internet only to sell it back to players via the Wii virtual console, but I'm only comfortable with calling it a myth because it's based on the fact that the embedded iNES file in the VC release is identical to iNES files you can find online. There's only one standalone version of Super Mario Bros. on the NES, and you can trivially recreate an exact file on your very own if you have the cartridge and a ROM dumping utility. It's a pretty good possibility that Nintendo created their virtual ROM in exactly the same fashion. The iNES format itself is very simple, and Nintendo hired the iNES developer to work on their in-house software; he could have easily just brought that same format into their official projects. (EDIT: This last sentence appears to have been another myth I bought into, see the reply to this comment.)

Lammy 3y ago

Speculating here but it feels like part of Nintendo's beef is the popularity of PC form factors that look like a Nintendo Switch. Most notably the Steam Deck but there are loads of them. In 2022 Nintendo starting taking down Youtube videos showing Steam Decks running Switch games: https://www.resetera.com/threads/nintendo-started-blocking-videos-that-show-emulation-of-switch-on-steam-deck.558229/ https://www.resetera.com/threads/nintendo-started-blocking-v... And last year went after Dolphin (GCN/Wii emulator) as soon as they announced plans to be listed on Steam: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=36090755 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=36090755 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=36100732 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=36100732

jsheard 3y ago
Amusingly Valve themselves released an official trailer for the Steam Deck which showed Yuzu installed on the homescreen. It was quickly taken down and re-posted without any references to Yuzu, probably after a panicked email from legal. https://www.pcgamer.com/valve-edits-steam-deck-trailer-to-remove-nintendo-switch-emulator-icon/ https://www.pcgamer.com/valve-edits-steam-deck-trailer-to-re...
- andy_ppp 3y ago
  I can play Switch games on Steam Deck!?
  - WithinReason 3y ago
    Yes, better than on the Switch. (now I'm awaiting legal action from Nintendo)
    - progbits 3y ago
      Better how? The detachable joycon with accelerometer control are a mechanic in some games (eg. Zelda crossbow aim). I would imagine this would be worse experience on steam deck.

codedokode 3y ago

> As a result, Nintendo ... is demanding that the Yuzu emulator is shut down. When corporations like Uber violate multiple laws, do they get shut down? When Amazon treats its employees poorly, does it get shut down? When Google forbids manufacturers to pre-install competitor apps, does it get shut down? Well, it seems that as long as copyright is not infringed, everything is ok. Also it seems to me that Nintendo might themselves violate antitrust laws by using their monopoly power on market of Nintendo-compatible games, and not allowing enough competition there.

ambigious7777 3y ago
Man, the US copyright system is broken :^(
extheat 3y ago
Anyone can sue anyone for any reason at any time. Unless the lawsuit is in bad faith and meritless (only a court can make that determination), there is no argument to be had about "lawfare". The only difference here and in other companies is that Nintendo actually follows through with their legal threats instead of just filing complaints they don't intend to take to court.
- acyou 3y ago
  If we don't like companies abusing their power, we can complain and decide not to buy the products of companies doing that sort of thing, and support their competitors. There's only so far courts takes you, for a consumer company the real trial is most definitely in the public court of opinion.
  - jojobas 3y ago
    I can't see their user base (or should I say fans?) caring about some cheap-ass emulator crowd. Nintendo's cash cow is people who buy consoles, games and accessories for thousands bucks, not tinkerers. More general public (i.e. moms looking for kids' presents) wouldn't give to shits about any legal buggery either.
- 3y ago

tetrisgm 3y ago

I would love to see OSS communities like Internet Archive or founders who are pro open source support them. Emulators are legal. Defending your hobby project in court is infeasible without patrons. Nintendo has no leg to stand on legally speaking, and there's a precedent waiting to happen. As for the emulator itself, I don't see any argument that the Yuzu team used "illegal means" (internal SDKs, whatever their equivalent of a DLL is, etc). A thought for the Ryujinx emulator devs, who are also making an excellent Switch emulator (sometimes more performant than Yuzu). They must be having a really stressful day.

kevingadd 3y ago
The last time I tried to use Yuzu or Ryujinx it was still quite difficult. I had to get out my switch and physical game cartridges and manually dump a bunch of decryption keys and game files. It is absurd that Nintendo is trying to claim these emulators are piracy tools or intended for piracy when they don't seem to do anything to make it easy to play a pirated game copy.
- theshackleford 3y ago
  Most people just google for a dumped copy and your up and playing in minutes (as long as it takes to download.) Switch piracy is massive. Almost everyone I know is doing it. I’m not, but I still emulate because switch performance is poo. So I buy the game, and then emulate it in 4K/60, it’s how I finally finished BOTW.
  - wernercd 3y ago
    I stopped emulating when my game crashed and I lost weeks of BotW. I moved back to the switch after that lol. Emulation was awesome. Until...
    - causality0 3y ago
      That doesn't make sense. Botw keeps like five autosaves and they're all separate files which are never written to at the same time. You'd have to manually delete them to lose them.

skupig 3y ago

>(A)to “circumvent protection afforded by a technological measure” means avoiding, bypassing, removing, deactivating, or otherwise impairing a technological measure; If this is what Nintendo alleges yuzu facilitates, does Nintendo have a case? Reimplementing the security measures seems like a reaffirmation of the security measures, not an impairment.

commandersaki 3y ago
IANAL and I've never used a switch emulator before, but if you have a feature for supplying keys to play proprietary games then I believe that constitutes as bypassing a technological protection mechanism. However, if that same feature is used to allow supplying self-signed keys to play custom software/homebrew, and there's no other way to do this, then it might be murky.

russfink 3y ago

It feels like a claim against free speech. Yuzu makes an emulator and states it can play Switch games. That is a statement. If others illegally trade binaries, that’s not the emulator’s fault. By attacking them, it feels like the only thing “wrong” was making the emulator available. Caveat - IANAL.

racl101 3y ago

Of course they are.

jamesear 3y ago

The only comment of someone saying they had used Yuzu for piracy has been flagged, and is no longer visible. This might HN readers a skewed perspective on how much Yuzu is used for piracy. I have many acquaintances/friends in different circles, with the means to pay, who use Yuzu for piracy. There are dedicated forums of people who coordinate on how to do this. Emulation is great as a means to study or play backups, but its also fair that Nintendo has legitimate business interest in curtailing this. IANAL, and have no idea how their case against Yuzu developers will go.

MyFedora 3y ago
I don't think Nintendo's argument that Yuzu's primary use case is piracy holds any merit. Nintendo is quite literally a part of the reason why people pirate Switch games they already own. What do you have to do to legally play Switch games on Yuzu? Oh, idk... * Jailbreak your Switch. * Dump your decryption keys. * Dump your games. * Never update your Switch ever again. * Pray Nintendo doesn't shove an update down your throat. * Void your warranty. * Hope Nintendo won't brick your Switch. How many people would use Yuzu legally if it weren't for Nintendo's anti-consumer practices? Nintendo can't just argue that Yuzu is made for piracy when Nintendo pushes people to piracy who legally own the Switch and Switch games in my opinion.
- infotainment 3y ago
  I feel like you’re undermining your own argument here. Yes, it’s exceedingly complex to “legally” play your own games on Yuzu. This bolsters the argument that Yuzu is primarily targeting users of pirated content, because essentially no one would bother doing all those steps you listed.
  - jamesear 3y ago
    I think MyFedora is suggesting that even if Yuzu's primary usecase is piracy, that's because it's so difficult to use Yuzu in the legit manner (due to Nintendo's DRM on the console/game you own).

tombert 3y ago

Yuzu is open source isn’t it? Nintendo can’t be completely incompetent here; if they get Yuzu shut down someone will inevitably fork it, and they have to know this. Presumably this is a play to try and establish precedent. They know that this lawsuit means nothing in itself, even if they win, but it can then be used to go after Retroarch or Higan or Mupen64 or Dolphin. This is bad.

catwoe 3y ago
I honestly cannot wrap my head around the need for an LLC. It's an open source project, why would you need a company?
- tombert 3y ago
  IANAL, but if there's a risk of being sued by a big corporation because you're making a product that they believe is stealing from them, wouldn't it make sense to shield yourself personally from being sued? Like, if I write a piece of software that does something innocuous, such as indexing files or something, then I probably wouldn't bother getting any kind of LLC, but I'm very unlikely to get sued over that. Nintendo, however, is famously litigious, has made their stance on emulation very clear, and has no problem going after individuals who dare to defy them. I think doing all the development through an LLC can limit Nintendo going after the individuals.
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
- Klonoar 3y ago
  If you’re accepting money somewhere, an LLC has potential advantages. It’s not an outlandish idea at all.
- frio 3y ago
  Open Source doesn't necessarily mean free of charge, but even when it does (most of the time), plenty of people still choose to pay for open source products today (eg. Red Hat). A product being open source doesn't mean the people working on it shouldn't be paid somehow; in particular, Yuzu do early releases and other closed-source-ish things (which is one of the reasons Nintendo is able to bring something to court here).

_jplc 3y ago

Pirate everything Nintendo produces.

Cub3 3y ago
Yep, this, they've been so anti-consumer for so long.
Janicc 3y ago
The funny thing is that I really would've liked to own a switch but my absolute hatred of Nintendo has kept me from doing it
- kevincox 3y ago
  Personally I don't want the physical hardware. But I would be happy to buy the games if they just ran in PC ...and Nintendo wasn't a giant asshole. Of course if they started selling their games for PC that may be a sign of enough change for me to reset my asshole status for them.
theshackleford 3y ago
I’m sure there is no world in which you wouldn’t find an excuse to a justification to something for nothing.
stuckkeys 3y ago
I jailbroke the original switch with unpatched gpu exploit. I had also bought few games with it. I try to setup parental controls and all the sudden the device is banned. That made me mad. I bought the device. They require internet service for parental controls and set play time. Nintendo is a giant penuz. i hope their content gets pirated into oblivion after this scenario ( going after yuzu ).

atum47 3y ago

It's unbelievable how much I loath Nintendo these days. Hard to believe I use to love them growing up. I got a Nintendo switch last year from Walmart. The f*ing came used (apparently someone in the store played some Zelda in it, put it back in the box and sold to me as new). Walmart said they couldn't do anything when I emailed them about the issue. Anyways, the switch came with no games. Nothing. Zero. So, naively I subscribed to the Nintendo online service, which I believed would be like Xbox game pass. Not at all. The service only let you play online. The only thing i got out of it was some SNES emulation. Moves like that and the ones this news cover pushes fans away.

Kranar 3y ago
Sounds like you have an issue with Walmart. Why would Nintendo be at fault because you bought an opened package? As for your other comment, you can buy a Switch bundled with games or without games. Looks like you either bought the standalone console or the person you claimed sold you the used Switch took the game.
infotainment 3y ago
Walmart has like the most lenient return policy imaginable (as you evidently found out). Why would you not have just returned your previously opened Switch at the regular returns counter?
throwawayk7h 3y ago
Don't forget that Nintendo put Gary Bowser -- a man in a wheelchair, with two kids -- in prison for a year. Now he owes 30% of his income to Nintendo for the rest of his life. He made Switch mod chips. Until Nintendo walks that back, I will pirate all future nintendo games and donate the cover price to Bowser's gofundme.
- mitthrowaway2 3y ago
  I am not a lawyer but a prison sentence doesn't seem like a possible outcome from a civil lawsuit. That must have been a criminal case against him, which means he was prosecuted by the state / the Crown, rather than Nintendo. I don't know the details though.

thih9 3y ago

Steam deck and other handheld PC platforms should help here. End result should be: emulator being legal as it is now, with ROMs being easy to purchase and download via official sources. This sounds like a dream; but given GOG’s success I guess it could actually happen.

holoduke 3y ago

I have to admit. I am using it a lot. And my 8 and 4 year old sons as well. We do have a switch with some games. But the pc with the Yuzu emulator can play many games in 4k 60hz. Only possible since the nvidia 40 series. The games load faster and its easier to install cheats. Its time for Nintendo to release a new switch. One that can only be emulated once the 6080ti is out.

zucker42 3y ago

Two paragraphs into the legal complaint[1], Nintendo says such BS as: > A video game emulator is a piece of software that allows users to unlawfully play pirated video games that were published only for a specific console on a general-purpose computing device [1] https://www.scribd.com/document/709016504/Nintendo-of-America-Inc-v-Tropic-Haze-LLC-1-24-Cv-00082-No-1-D-R-I-Feb-26-2024 https://www.scribd.com/document/709016504/Nintendo-of-Americ...

joemi 3y ago
Why is that BS? It's true. It's not the only use of an emulator, but it's the primary use.
- zucker42 3y ago
  A more accurate rewording of Nintendo's statement (keeping their point of view): > A video emulator is piece of software that allows a user to run a video game on a platform different from that for which is was written. Many people use emulators to play unlawfully obtained pirated games. Wording something as definition implies that the statement both contains no falsehoods and is complete. Saying that the purpose of an emulator is to play pirated games is not true. I use an emulator to play Super Smash Bros Melee on my computer, with the ROM obtained from the disk I own. People have modded the Super Smash Bros Melee game to allow for online play, something that would be impossible without an emulator. People used emulators to find a bug in Ocarina of Time that would allow them to beat the game (played on original hardware) faster. But the statement is written to confuse a non-technical fact finder into thinking that the only purpose of an emulator is to play a video game without paying for it, or to help others to do so. And it's done so because that Nintendo doesn't believe that you own the game you buy from it.

catwoe 3y ago

Why do you need an LLC to run an emulator project?

bahmboo 3y ago
So when it gets sued you have some protection personally. But doing crime with the LLC probably "pierces the veil" to some extent. IANAL.
iteria 3y ago
They probably forsaw this coming and wanted protection in case of a lawsuit.

sircastor 3y ago

I feel like there ought to be a sliding scale of cost associated with filing a law suit. If you're a very large company suing a very small company, it should be very expensive to file. Expensive enough to make your lawyers encourage you to think really hard about whether or not this is actually a threat to your business. Of course, applying that to the real world would obviously fall apart quickly. It's not hard to think through loopholes. It just seems to easy to crush a small company/group who are just doing something you don't like.

catwoe 3y ago

I guess it's a matter of whether you own your hardware (and included software) or just own the hardware and a license to use the software that comes with it in a certain way.

deminature 3y ago

I wish they'd offer a legal avenue to play Switch games at 4K/60 instead of 720p/20-30. Anyone looking for a higher fidelity experience than the 2017 Switch hardware is able to provide is forced to use software like Yuzu to enable it. Even Sony has started porting their crown jewel games to PC to enormous commercial success, allowing players with high-end hardware to legally enjoy a higher fidelity experience, but Nintendo is stuck in the past.

xnx 3y ago
I've read rumors, and it seems very plausible, that Nintendo's next console might be able to play Switch games at higher resolution and/or framerate.
- bigpapikite 3y ago
  That's probably the case (as I don't know what else would make it worth buying), but the ultimate problem with Nintendo will still remain. They're bullies and they get away with it because they make some of the most consistently high quality first party games. Microsoft took the plunge first, but everyone is realizing that the future is an open platform. Turns out if you make a quality game and make it widely available people will buy it (surprise). But they're married to the idea of restricting how their titles are played, which is only going to continue to turn people off.
  - Panzer04 3y ago
    It's the difference between being a publisher/game developer and a hardware company. Hardware companies see games as a means to sell consoles. Game developers see platforms as a means to sell games. If you're coming at things from the perspective of a hardware maker it makes sense to be as restrictive as possible, since that provides the differentiation that sells your (overpriced) hardware. In addition, if your hardware becomes common then you can charge game developers for access (more broadly, this is what Apple does, mostly) From the game developer side, it makes sense to be on as many platforms as physically possible, since that's just more places to make sales and money.

pipeline_peak 3y ago

> Nintendo is now seeking a trial by jury Nintendo is clearly relying on the fact that the average person would assume emulators are illegal. Also a Patreon account is a poor argument.

DinaCoder99 3y ago

[flagged]

crtasm 3y ago
Tears of the Kingdom ?

EMIRELADERO 3y ago

A ton of people seem to think the DMCA is the end of Yuzu, but I believe it's actually its salvation, particularily Section 1201(f): (1)Notwithstanding the provisions of subsection (a)(1)(A), a person who has lawfully obtained the right to use a copy of a computer program may circumvent a technological measure that effectively controls access to a particular portion of that program for the sole purpose of identifying and analyzing those elements of the program that are necessary to achieve interoperability of an independently created computer program with other programs, and that have not previously been readily available to the person engaging in the circumvention, to the extent any such acts of identification and analysis do not constitute infringement under this title. (2)Notwithstanding the provisions of subsections (a)(2) and (b), a person may develop and employ technological means to circumvent a technological measure, or to circumvent protection afforded by a technological measure, in order to enable the identification and analysis under paragraph (1), or for the purpose of enabling interoperability of an independently created computer program with other programs, if such means are necessary to achieve such interoperability, to the extent that doing so does not constitute infringement under this title. (3)The information acquired through the acts permitted under paragraph (1), and the means permitted under paragraph (2), may be made available to others if the person referred to in paragraph (1) or (2), as the case may be, provides such information or means solely for the purpose of enabling interoperability of an independently created computer program with other programs, and to the extent that doing so does not constitute infringement under this title or violate applicable law other than this section. "Independently-created computer program" in this case being Yuzu, "other programs" being Switch games.

deleted 3y ago
[deleted]
redder23 3y ago
GitHub created this defense fund after they came after youtube-dl. Not very Micro$oft, but they will probably help when it comes to that, but so far they did not file for DMCA takedown in GitHub. Maybe they did and Gihub changed the rules and requires some court judgement to take things down first?
- 3y ago

aussieguy1234 3y ago

This is unfortunate. The switch is probably coming to the end of its life soon. As soon as Nintendos next gen (announced or not) console is released, the switch will be a legacy system and emulation is important for archiving purposes. This does make it less likely that i'll be buying any Nintendo products in the future.

a_vanderbilt 3y ago
I suspect that the "Switch 2" is going to be like the GameCube -> Wii, where the hardware is backward compatible and largely just a faster version of the previous generation. Essentially being a suped-up Switch means Yuzu could immediately work much better with whatever they come out with next. I think that is why they are going after Yuzu now, to try and get ahead of another Dolphin situation occurring much earlier in the lifecycle. Should Nintendo get a favorable ruling, this would open a huge can of legal worms for the tech industry as a whole.
- ambichook 3y ago
  has nvidia worked on the architecture behind the tegra in the last few years? i'm not certain that's possible tbh
  - a_vanderbilt 3y ago
    I primarily work with implementing high-level CUDA, which enjoys a lot of attention. My impression is that while breaking changes exist, they are worth the effort to port forward. I cannot tell you how they treat game designers, but my perspective is that it is unfortunately still way ahead of ROCm. I could see Nintendo making it work for the titles they deem strategically worthy.

sergiotapia 3y ago

Can someone run the actual public filing through AI to get the summary and highlights? https://www.scribd.com/document/709016504/Nintendo-of-America-Inc-v-Tropic-Haze-LLC-1-24-Cv-00082-No-1-D-R-I-Feb-26-2024?irpid=10078&sharedid=skimlinks.com https://www.scribd.com/document/709016504/Nintendo-of-Americ...

devwastaken 3y ago

If you are ever going to make something where you may be sued, you must take precautions to protect yourself. Any website you use can be compelled to hand over your info. Never use personal details, always use trustable VPN's. It's unfortunate, but remember that corps don't play fair, and they will turn "grey area" against you by having more money than you. They can find the right jurisdiction to get what they want. That said, Nintendo is going to have to point to a specific DRM bypass. If they can't, yuzu should win.

1970-01-01 3y ago

Lawyers always kill the fun. Piracy and emulation is still legal in many other countries, however. Emulator projects should always be hosted in piracy-friendly nations. https://www.reddit.com/r/Piracy/comments/b6rpzx/here_are_some_of_the_main_countries_where_its/ https://www.reddit.com/r/Piracy/comments/b6rpzx/here_are_som...

saltymug76 3y ago
Emulation is legal in the US. Nintendo deserves to have their games pirated over this anti consumer overreach.
- 1970-01-01 3y ago
  That's not how it works at all. If lawyers are applying pressure, the legally is still tied up in the courts, and unfortunately that particular emulation project isn't legal (in reality) until the matter is fully settled.

jovial_cavalier 3y ago

Last I checked, you needed to actually own a switch and a downloadable version of the game to use yuzu... has this changed?

knicholes 3y ago
Oh, I didn't know you had to own a Switch. I thought you just had to own the game?
- jovial_cavalier 3y ago
  Yeah, like the guy above says. They don’t actually circumvent the DRM. They just get the switch’s key. I think there are only as many keys as there are switches, so while you could probably buy it on the gray market, with just yuzu and a site that hosts roms, you can’t do any pirating
crtasm 3y ago
You don't. I'm not aware of a way an emulator could confirm you bought the files you give it to run.
danhor 3y ago
You need the decryption keys, and yuzu only gives you instructions on how to extract them from your own switch (and is careful to stress that point). But nothing stops you from searching for the keys on the web and getting them from there.

cuckatoo 3y ago

I was not aware that Yuzu worked well enough to be worth suing over. Thanks for the tip.

mattigames 3y ago

Link to support the Yuzu developer team on Patreon: https://www.patreon.com/yuzuteam https://www.patreon.com/yuzuteam

tanh 3y ago

While I’ll defend the right to make emulators, I do think it should not be published for a console actively sold in stores.

jokoon 3y ago

I recently pointed out that Nintendo is not selling new wii consoles, so people cannot play Mario Galaxy 1 or 2 unless they buy an used console. Apparently they released the game in some limited version they don't sell anymore. It makes zero sense, it's like they are asking people to pirate their games.

ken47 3y ago

What did Yuzu expect? If they’re going to challenge a company of Nintendo’s stature in this manner, then they should be prepared for legal war. And what’s Nintendo supposed to do here? Most here would do the same thing if they were in Nintendo’s shoes. They have employees to pay. Don’t hate the player, hate the game.

saltymug76 3y ago
Threatening a multi billion dollar company by making an emulator that contains zero infringing code? Give me a break. Nintendo needs to be squashed in court and brought back down to earth.

ApolloFortyNine 3y ago

When the game isn't be sold any more, along with the console, emulation makes sense. But the switch emulation for at least 2 years now has been more than good enough to run games of a current gen system, and you're absolutely kidding yourself if you think any meaningful percentage own the game. The emulator also requires Nintendo data they're not actually allowed to ship (there's a number of resources to download it though), but they specifically coded to support it. Imo switch 2 is coming and it'll likely be almost the same system just beefier, so going after the emulators makes sense for them.

GabrielTFS 3y ago
Legally it doesn't really matter at all whether or not the console is currently commercialized, at least from precedents like Sony v. Connectix (Connectix was selling a commercial (literally in shelves) emulator directly competing with the PlayStation while it was being commercialized and won the lawsuit Sony filed against them)
- ApolloFortyNine 3y ago
  A quick glance shows that they developed their own Bios to do this, Yuzu specifically requires you to insert a copy of the Switch's firmware, it won't work otherwise. It seems a bit grey as that would mean it's really the users who broke the law, but at the same time, the piece of software is quite literally useless without it. Even if they had their own absolutely terrible firmware with bad compatibility it'd be an easier defense to me. As is, their code is useless without an illegal-to-add addition.
Lammy 3y ago
> for at least 2 years now has been more than good enough to run games of a current gen system To be fair that's impressive but nothing new. I 'member running N64 games with my Voodoo card in 1999 when GameCube wouldn't be out for two more years: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/UltraHLE https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/UltraHLE
Liquix 3y ago
> and you're absolutely kidding yourself if you think any meaningful percentage own the game. respectfully disagree. nintendo has fought hard to capture the casual/normie demographic and they have consistently sold more switches than M$ has sold xbox ones every month since launch. switch emulation is alive and well but doesn't jeopardize their position as the non-techie's console of choice. therefore they have taken to only pursuing legal action when an emulator is being packaged up for the masses to one-click install on steam

bassiek 3y ago

Are they talking about this stuff ? Right here ? > https://en.btdig.com/search?order=2&q=%22Complete+Play+Nintendo+Switch%22 https://en.btdig.com/search?order=2&q=%22Complete+Play+Ninte... Better avoid it then.

saintradon 3y ago

Regardless of whatever your take on emulation is - can we all agree that it's actually awful there isn't some organized archive of old video games? The library of congress supposedly has 173 million items in there - you'd think they'd have an archive.

Cloudef 3y ago

Ah yes, the same company that sued individual to pay portition of his salary to the company rest of his life. The same company that sends spies to spy on jailbreakers/hackers, watching their daily life. Search for Gary Bowser and Nintendo ninjas (leaked documents) if you are unfamiliar

mise_en_place 3y ago

It’ll be interesting to see how this plays out. Yuzu on its own is just a generic ARM emulator, right? Hope they don’t start going after QEMU next.

johnny22 3y ago
no, it's not. it has to match the switch hardware virtually and also whatever the switch os is.

giancarlostoro 3y ago

This will just bring more attention to a perfectly legal emulator. Even if they somehow mess up what's already set in stone, people will fork Yuzu.

Zuiii 3y ago

Why isn't this covered by antislap? Yuzu should at least counter sue them. Why is the law so broken when it comes to IP?! Devs who don't want to deal with Nintendo's nonsensical delusions should start their emulation projects on tor. When the law doesn't protect people from those who have a long history of abusing it to punish legal operations, perhaps people should take basic precautions to protect themselves from both the nutjobs and the law. Maybe what law abiding developers need is a deepweb Github.

rjsdev 3y ago
Deepweb GitHub is a fun concept. Sign me up.

MyFirstSass 3y ago

This unfortunately makes me loose all respect for Nintendo. Attacking an open source passion project with no money while they themselves don't care about supporting their own hardware fully in any way.

adamsmolinski 3y ago

Time to send some money through that Patreon.

dingi 3y ago

Never heard of Yuzu up until now. Thanks Nintendo for bringing it to the attention. I'll give it a go.

ryzvonusef 3y ago

Nothing Nintendo can do can shut the emulation genie... because China. A lot of Chinese sff pc/handheld producers (GPD/Minisforum/Ayaneo/Beelink etc)[1] are now creating device with the explicit understanding that these devices will be used for emulation, and are creating devices as such. even if Yuzu is banned...Chinese will take over, and nothing any american/japanese game manufacturers can do to stop it. ---- [1] AyaNeo literally created a DS clone called the Flip DS... doesn't get more explicit then that: https://www.ayaneo.com/product/AYANEO-FLIP-DS.html https://www.ayaneo.com/product/AYANEO-FLIP-DS.html

Lammy 3y ago
I know someone who uses a GPD WIN 3 as their primary computer and really loves it. Seems nice from the little I got to interact with it. I also like how the GPD WIN 4 looks like a giant PSVita lol
trollied 3y ago
They're crapping themselves because somebody has just released [1] a cartridge that lets you run "backups" stored on a SD card on an actual physical switch. Each cart has a unique key though, so I imagine Nintendo will go on a big banning spree. [1] https://migswitch.com/ https://migswitch.com/
- rbits 3y ago
  Oh yeah, from what I've heard using that will get you banned instantly
  - albrewer 3y ago
    They can only ban you if they find 2 copies of the same cart running at the same time. This hardware, for all intents and purposes, looks to the Switch like a physical cartridge.
- ryzvonusef 3y ago
  True, but not sure you will be using Yuzu for that, seems slightly unrelated to the Yuzu witch hunt.

shmerl 3y ago

So they are trying to use the garbage DMCA 1201? That "law" should be burned with fire becasue it's unconstitutional.

8K832d7tNmiQ 3y ago

Gonna bet it's actually because of the DRM implementation on Yuzu that got it into trouble.

cylemons 3y ago
DRM protecting yuzu itself?

pipes 3y ago

Not sure how I feel about the developers making 30k a month in patreon donations for writing an emulator for a current gen console. Nintendo might have a point here. Edit: that said, I did pay 5 dollars (or something like that) for redream, which is a Dreamcast emulator. But in my mind at least, this doesn't deny the developers of the games I play on it the money they would get from a sale. Because it is a dead platform. I know for a fact that when I pirated Dreamcast games back in the day, I would have paid for at for some of them at least. I don't feel great about that. It was one of my favourite consoles and I probably aided in it's untimely demise.

GabrielTFS 3y ago
Legally it doesn't matter - in fact you could say the courts practically endorse making emulators to compete with existing platforms, given quotes like this from Sony v. Connectix (where Sony attempted to sue Connectix for making a commercial (sold on shelves) emulator for the PlayStation which was then being actively commercialized): > The Virtual Game Station is a legitimate competitor in the market for platforms on which Sony and Sony-licensed games can be played. See Sega, 977 F.2d at 1522-23. For this reason, some economic loss by Sony as a result of this competition does not compel a finding of no fair use. Sony understandably seeks control over the market for devices that play games Sony produces or licenses. The copyright law, however, does not confer such a monopoly. See id. at 1523-24 ("[A]n attempt to monopolize the market by making it impossible for others to compete runs counter to the statutory purpose of promoting creative expression and cannot constitute a strong equitable basis for resisting the invocation of the fair use doctrine."). - 9th Circuit Court of Appeals, ruling in Sony Computer Entertainment v. Connectix Corp.
johnnyanmac 3y ago
would it change if they were making less money? or emulating a previous generation? Or if that 30k was split between 100 devs and is basically a small tip per month instead of a very comfortable wage for a single dev?
- slily 3y ago
  It would. If they weren't enabling current-gen piracy and profiting off of actively exploited IPs, they wouldn't get a tenth of that income, maybe not a hundredth, looking at what other projects earn. Plenty of top emulator developers spend their nights and weekends on hardware research and low-level programming and get zilch for their efforts. I could name several who deserve support more than Yuzu, but they don't withhold updates behind Patreon subscriptions, focus on new platforms to hijack market share, or self-promote by listing all the games you can pirate on their programs - in other words they're passion projects, not money-making enterprises, so far from making thousands a month, most of those projects are lucky to get a fiver here and there from an appreciative user. Anyone familiar with the scene can tell you that Yuzu makes that money because they actively seek it. The fact that it's a highly profitable product focused on enabling illegal activity and not a passion project is what's uncomfortable.

_imnothere 3y ago

Things like this and companies like Nintendo must be stopped, it's both morally and legally correct to emulate when people actually owns the machine and cartridges.

aurareturn 3y ago
Disagreed. I'm guessing that 99.99% of Switch emulator users do not own the cartridges. They're stealing, which is not only morally wrong, but legally wrong. Nintendo has the right to protect their IP and they have the right to make money. Furthermore, I disagree in general that it's morally and legally correct to emulate something you purchased.
- wiz21c 3y ago
  That is, Yuzu in itself doesn't do anything. You need Nintendo's IP to run Yuzu, so Nintendo should blame those who steal their IP. Now, the real question is: did Yuzu's creator have illegal access to Nintendo's IP to write Yuzu ?
- hengistbury 3y ago
  Regardless of the moral question, digital piracy is not really "stealing"
  - loup-vaillant 3y ago
    Indeed it isn't: digital goods are non-rival, and as such fundamentally un-steal-able. Property as we usually understand it simply doesn't apply to them. There's still copyright infringement, but "unlawful breach of a state-granted monopoly" doesn't sound nearly as bad as stealing. You wouldn't steal a car, would you?
- fartsucker69 3y ago
  what's morally problematic about emulating something you already own?
  - 3y ago

nicman23 3y ago

too bad it is open source, ain't it?

hakube 3y ago

Nintendon't with the usual stuff

eemil 3y ago

I wish people would hold Nintendo to the same standards as Sony and Microsoft. But because they make the best games, everyone looks past their anti-consumer BS and permanently-stuck-in-the-90s corporate executives.

postexitus 3y ago

Oh there is good emulation of Switch on powerful Switch-like devices? I will definitely give it a try. Thanks Nintendo!

rnts08 3y ago

Nintendo does a nintendo? surprised_pikachu.png

0dayz 3y ago

Its really annoying how Nintendo keep on thinking that western law is equal to Japanese law. Afaik, in Japan you do have absurd copyright law to the point where Nintendo can sue anything and anyone doing emulator or hobby project.