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U.S. army drops requirement for high school diploma (2022)

126 points by walterbell 3y ago

ThisIsMyAltAcct 3y ago
This article needs a 2022 tag
- walterbell 3y ago
  Oops, posted the wrong link, Army (2022) vs Navy (2024), https://www.military.com/daily-news/2024/01/27/no-diploma-no-problem-navy-again-lowers-requirements-it-struggles-meet-recruitment-goals.html https://www.military.com/daily-news/2024/01/27/no-diploma-no...
JojoFatsani 3y ago
[flagged]
jruohonen 3y ago
I don't know how long the service is, but wouldn't providing high school therein be a win-win, then?
- rtkwe 3y ago
  Soldiers are generally quite busy with their military work to go through even a GED process.
  - clipsy 3y ago
    Presumably the idea would be to test them on intake, assign them to GED prep classes accordingly, and begin basic once they've finished their education?
    - rtkwe 3y ago
      Quick google has claims most people prep and pass their GED in 3 months which is already longer than the basic training recruits go through. Depending on their MOS school they go to after that you're maybe adding 30-50% training time and that's assuming they can hit the average GED time.
- randomdata 3y ago
  ~90% of those who meet the age requirements have completed high school. Anyone who hasn't completed high school by that point almost certainly can't, and won't be accepted into the army for the same reason. The small number of exceptions who could, but have chosen not to, aren't exactly going to be attracted to the army if you force them into doing something they have explicitly chosen not to do. Also, the article is from 2022 and the requirement was reinstated a week later, so this is moot anyway. At least as it pertains to the Army. Granted, the Navy lifted the same requirement on Friday. We shall see if they last longer than a week. There remains a strong social impetus, particularly in government, to paint a picture that you can't get a job without completing high school, even though everyone already completes it these days anyway...
unnamed76ri 3y ago
Less people being willing to go fight and die in pointless wars is at least a small positive sign for society.
- huytersd 3y ago
  Not a good sign for a country that depends on its military to maintain a hegemony. It’s also not like our “enemies” are reducing their armies or anything.
  - abestic9 3y ago
    It’s not a numbers game anymore, it hasn’t been for decades.
    - chii 3y ago
      in an all out war, it certainly is a numbers game. There just hasn't been all out war in decades, but that doesn't mean one isn't around the corner. Being prepared is better than not.
      - RankingMember 3y ago
        What constitutes an all-out war in the modern era? If it includes nukes, numbers have little value. Even pulling nukes out of the equation, modern armaments make the idea of overwhelming the US with bodies storming the shores/borders an almost certainly futile strategy.
      - petre 3y ago
        Except those numbers now translate into money and resources needed to build units. In the past the units were human.
  - pizza 3y ago
    Thought it was the dollar
deleted 3y ago
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Duwensatzaj 3y ago
Hope they haven’t forgotten about Project 100,000 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_100,000 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_100,000 Another article is more explicit about exactly who isn’t joining the military anymore. https://www.military.com/daily-news/2024/01/10/army-sees-sharp-decline-white-recruits.html https://www.military.com/daily-news/2024/01/10/army-sees-sha...
- jdksmdbtbdnmsm 3y ago
  >Another article is more explicit about exactly who isn’t joining the military anymore. The article doesn't confirm whether the total of any other groups is dropping, but it can be inferred from the numbers given that recruiting is very low across the board. It's worth having a racial remark in the title for clicks alone.
  - ThisIsMyAltAcct 3y ago
    > In 2018, 56.4% of new recruits were categorized as white. In 2023, that number had fallen to 44%. During that same five-year period, Black recruits have gone from 20% to 24% of the pool, and Hispanic recruits have risen from 17% to 24%, with both groups seeing largely flat recruiting totals but increasing as a percentage of incoming soldiers as white recruiting has fallen.
    - jdksmdbtbdnmsm 3y ago
      The use of proportions rather than actual totals means the number of recruits could have dropped by that same 12.4% in every category, in which case the focus on race is completely meaningless.
- randomdata 3y ago
  Well, they did reinstate the requirement a week later, so... https://www.defenseone.com/policy/2022/07/after-criticism-army-reinstates-high-school-diploma-requirement-recruitment-plummets/373919/ https://www.defenseone.com/policy/2022/07/after-criticism-ar...
- deleted 3y ago
deleted 3y ago
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hipadev23 3y ago
If you want more recruits, you simply need to pay more.
- thret 3y ago
  US military are notoriously underpaid. Increase the base pay, increase the long-term incentives. They're not working for tips.
  - johnnyanmac 3y ago
    The idea of military was that you have below average pay but insane benefits (and depending on the time, cultural respect), both directly and indirectly (There are/were so many places that give a military discount). The latter is falling off as of late (both directly and indirectly, again), so what's the point if you're not conscripted?
  - refurb 3y ago
    They aren’t underpaid, at least not on the low end. A raw recruit (E1) gets $23,000 per year. Housing, food, work clothing and healthcare is paid for. After tax, it’s like ~$1,500 in completely discretionary income. This is why you get 19 year old new recruits buying new sports cars. They can afford it. The smart ones start socking away money while they are young. A new officer (O1) gets $43,000 per year. If they are married they can live off base and get a housing allowance. If lucky enough to get stationed in SF, that’s another $4,017 per month. So just base pay and allowance is $91,000. And the housing allowance is tax free, so it’s equivalent to making more than $100,000 per year. Then add on top sign on or enlistment bonuses especially for in demand MOSs, relocation allowances, etc. Then you put in 20 years and you get a pension you can live on and healthcare for the rest of your life. They aren’t making Silicon Valley money but it puts most members in firmly middle class territory.
    - thret 3y ago
      It's very difficult comparing salaries in different nations, because expenses vary so much. However, your comment confirms my opinion. I would like to see a 50% increase in that E1/E2/E3 base pay. I've worked with them - they earn it.
Syonyk 3y ago
[flagged]
- wtfwhateven 3y ago
  [flagged]
  - Syonyk 3y ago
    On June 1, 2022, the Marines tweeted out a helmet with rainbow bullet tips for Pride Month: https://globalnews.ca/news/8888090/marines-rainbow-bullets-pride-lgbtq/ https://globalnews.ca/news/8888090/marines-rainbow-bullets-p... is one such link, you can find others. The US Army 2021 video, "Emma, The Calling," is exactly what I described: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C8-Yslv4PME https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C8-Yslv4PME And the "Army sees sharp decline in white recruits." https://www.military.com/daily-news/2024/01/10/army-sees-sharp-decline-white-recruits.html https://www.military.com/daily-news/2024/01/10/army-sees-sha... I could continue if I wanted, but I'll stop there, because I think I've made my point that "The things I claimed happened," did, in fact, happen. Even if you'd rather not accept them.
    - libomi6052 3y ago
      It's funny how "1984" style of Ministry of truth is alive and well and many of them pretend it's just fiction.
    - gettodachoppa 3y ago
      1. It's not happening, that's just a far-right conspiracy theory 2. It happened, but it was just an isolated incident 3. It's happening, and that's a good thing 4. It's always been happening, so what? No one ever claimed it never happened, that's just a far-right conspiracy theory.
    - wtfwhateven 3y ago
      >There are families in which four generations have served, with the current generation of fathers telling their kids, "You shouldn't go serve there, because of your skin color. Because my friends still in there are seeing people promoted or not based not on their skills and proven character, but on their skin color." what about this?
wingspar 3y ago
U.S. Navy too https://www.military.com/daily-news/2024/01/27/no-diploma-no-problem-navy-again-lowers-requirements-it-struggles-meet-recruitment-goals.html https://www.military.com/daily-news/2024/01/27/no-diploma-no...
jhelphenstine 3y ago
Missing in discussions about the US military recruiting problem is a discussion of the shift away from 20 year defined benefit pensions to the “Blended Retirement System.” When such a terrific deal slides off the table, economic incentives shift accordingly.
- halJordan 3y ago
  I disagree, the high 3 wasnt a good system. The difference between 2.0 and 2.5 % is minimal when you can completely lose the whole shebang at anytime for reasons that have nothing to do with your competence at any time between day 1 all the way through day 7304.
  - dmoy 3y ago
    Also the vast majority don't get their 20. It's like >80% leaving before 20 yrs. The bigger contributing factors to declining enlistment are: general lack of support for the military among younger people (the latest round of forever wars didn't exactly help), better options in the civilian world (especially increasing benefits on student loan suppprt), and decreasing physical fitness (the increase in obesity rates directly lowers the available recruitment population).
    - AniseAbyss 3y ago
      People have different ideas about life. If you can get a 9-5 job that pays the bills why join the military and be deployed overseas for months on end not being a part of your family? The civilian sector has the same problem with truck drivers and maritime shipping.
      - dmoy 3y ago
        Yup exactly > The civilian sector has the same problem with truck drivers and maritime shipping. Hell, maritime anything. Even super local ferry work has a hard time recruiting.
chasil 3y ago
Perhaps greater effort on retention would help stem the decline. https://www.businessinsider.com/gen-z-american-army-soldiers-complain-food-pay-tiktok-2023-12 https://www.businessinsider.com/gen-z-american-army-soldiers... Edit: https://www.businessinsider.com/us-army-invites-back-vaccine-refusing-soldiers-amid-recruitment-crisis-2023-11 https://www.businessinsider.com/us-army-invites-back-vaccine...
eximius 3y ago
Oh good, so we continue to exploit the uneducated for our military so they won't realize how little we actually support veterans until it's too late.
- abigail95 3y ago
  Somewhat offensive to myself that because I don't have a high school diploma I don't have the agency to join the armed forces.
  - BriggyDwiggs42 3y ago
    It’s somewhat more likely that you don’t statistically, yes. Admittedly I don’t really get the point when they already aptitude test, but I also like to hate the military so whatever.
    - abigail95 3y ago
      If you suck at statistics sure, I didn't fail high school. I left voluntarily for a better opportunity. If someone interprets that as the same as someone who tries to complete high school and fails they are the ones we should worry about. If you use something that people didn't do as a signal you run into all sorts of problems.
      - BriggyDwiggs42 3y ago
        True, I’d agree it’s a terrible proxy for aptitude.
- randomdata 3y ago
  > exploit the uneducated for our military Just the navy, who instituted a similar change on Friday. This article about the army is from 2022 and the army reverted the change a week later. High school completion is a requirement again. It remains to be seen if the navy makes it the fully week.
  - 3y ago
everybodyknows 3y ago
Navy too! https://www.military.com/daily-news/2024/01/27/no-diploma-no-problem-navy-again-lowers-requirements-it-struggles-meet-recruitment-goals.html https://www.military.com/daily-news/2024/01/27/no-diploma-no...
klipklop 3y ago
A bit of sensationalism going on. They still have to pass a standardize test that mostly proves they have an IQ suitable for military service. There are people that could be a great soldier/servicemember that didn’t make it through high school. Some will flourish under a military environment that failed out of high school. I don’t really like people assuming somebody that didn’t graduate high school are somehow inferior or stupid people. The issue is complicated.
- Waterluvian 3y ago
  One thing it means is that they’re administering the test, not a school board. That may be relevant or ripe for abuse.
  - rsanek 3y ago
    wouldn't be the first time -- https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_100,000 https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_100,000
    - MiguelX413 3y ago
      > m.
      - hbs18 3y ago
        The mobile version of wikipedia looks nicer on a desktop/laptop than the regular version.
  - klipklop 3y ago
    It would seem to be in their self interest to not skew the test results. The military has done a lot of research on their testing. A soldier that is too incompetent is a danger to his/her comrades. Previous attempts to recruit soldiers with too low of an IQ was a disaster. More danger than help. I don’t really see how they would he less trustworthy than a school board. Especially considering the stakes.
shipscode 3y ago
[flagged]
- jorts 3y ago
  They vaccinate for all sorts of diseases. Covid is no different. It’s a risk and threat to them being functional as an organization.
  - libomi6052 3y ago
    [dead]
  - ggdG 3y ago
    > They vaccinate for all sorts of diseases. Covid is no different. But the covid vaccines ARE different: Vaccines typically take 10-15 years of research and clinical trials before approval [1]. The covid vaccines OTOH got developed, "tested" and approved within the timespan of less than a year. They literally had to invoke a sci-fi trope ("warp speed") to justify this timetable [2]. > It’s a risk and threat to them being functional as an organization. The injection poses a bigger threat to them as an organisation than the disease itself: men below 40 are 6 times more likely to get heart damage from the mRNA shot than from the disease [3]. And this for a disease that has a lower IFR than influenza among people younger than 60 [4]. Pre-2020, decades of research into vaccines for (other) coronaviruses only resulted in vaccines that either didn't work at all or led to enhanced disease [5]. After a gain-of-function experiment went south in Wuhan, all that hard-earned wisdom got thrown out of the window (along with the Nuremberg code [6]) for a panicked and rushed vaccination program. Yes, these vaccines improve the short-term relative outcomes for the elderly, the obese and the sick. About six months after vaccination you still are somewhat protected against symptoms, but are more likely to get infected than the non-vaccinated [7] [8] [9]. [1] https://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/basics/test-approve.html https://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/basics/test-approve.html [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Warp_Speed https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Warp_Speed [3] https://www.ahajournals.org/doi/10.1161/CIRCULATIONAHA.122.059970 https://www.ahajournals.org/doi/10.1161/CIRCULATIONAHA.122.0... [4] https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC9613797/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC9613797/ [5] https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4369385/#Sec12title https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4369385/#Sec12t... [6] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuremberg_Code https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuremberg_Code [7] https://ajph.aphapublications.org/doi/full/10.2105/AJPH.2022.307112 https://ajph.aphapublications.org/doi/full/10.2105/AJPH.2022... [8] https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2022.11.14.22282103v1.full.pdf https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2022.11.14.22282103v... [9] https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6736(22)00089-7/fulltext https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6...
decremental 3y ago
[flagged]
- Drblessing 3y ago
  Prepare for the civil war. John Locke has not been forgotten.
b4ke 3y ago
They should institute a voluntary conscripted amnesty/asylum for those who entered into the country and are on immigration parole. This program could allow for retroactive application to spouses/children (no extended family transferability until completion of service contract). There would be no need for sign-on bonus, you could add additional qualifications for g.i. benefits in the form of naturalization. It would really be a net positive as they would be forced to assimilate into our society in a way that is a net benefit at many different layers of the civil stack. The kind of people who are willing to serve the country rather than acting as a sanctioned entitlement case would be a win/win. No?
- atmavatar 3y ago
  I'm a little worried that if we implement the "service guarantees citizenship" scheme you allude to, we'll be forced to fight a war against an interstellar insect race soon after.
  - b4ke 3y ago
    No I didn’t say that or allude to it, voluntary conscripted amnesty. They would still have to naturalize as well, and only offer that after a sufficient period of service and all the rigors of training, ait, and actual term. Do you believe we are not already having an inter-domain/dimensional information war with something of a nature you describe? (Kind of kidding)
    - thaumasiotes 3y ago
      >> if we implement the "service guarantees citizenship" scheme you allude to > No I didn’t say that or allude to it Did you forget what you put in your own comment? >>> There would be no need for sign-on bonus, you could add additional qualifications for g.i. benefits in the form of naturalization.
      - b4ke 3y ago
        Your comment is dismissive, and unhelpful. I think if you were to maybe review the concept in a less shallow manner, you would see this is voluntary, for those already in country on parole anyways. If you think you can dismiss the concept by being disrespectful of your lack of depth I’d suggest you work on comprehension with logic puzzles or the like. All of what I said requires effort, which is not guaranteed, they are options for the motivated, which is what we want those coming to this country to hold of personal value. Have a nice day though.
hayst4ck 3y ago
I am a well educated individual. I did not have to work very hard at all for a well paying job after college from a respected company. I have skill sets that are absolutely in demand, particularly in areas the military would like. When China re-colonized Hong Kong I gave strong thought to joining the military. When Russia invaded Ukraine, I similarly felt called to join the military, if not to fight for Ukraine, to prepare to fight for Taiwan. The reason I won't join the military is because America does not support Rule of Law. We invaded a country under false pretenses and invaded another country because we could. The aftermath of Vietnam inundated popular culture and media with a clear message: America fucked up. The people I looked up to, Anthony Bourdain for example, hated people like Kissinger, and imparted that hatred to me. Bourdain showed America's military legacy in Asia. I heard about Haliburton profiteering. I heard about the military industrial complex. I heard about Lejune water, and burn pits, and trouble with Tricare. Military bases that pump cancer into the ground when there is a fire. People like Jon Stewart showed nightly how bad faith American journalism and politicians are. He interviewed the deputy secretary of defense who was aghast that someone might try to ask for accountability. Historians, like Timothy Snyder (Yale professor specializing in eastern european history) are saying that America is headed into very very dark times and writing guides on how to combat tyranny. Even today, America is actively supporting a genocidal regime in Israel, spitting in the face of a rules based international order. Rules for your enemies, but not your friends is not Rule of Law, it is exactly the opposite. I grew up understanding that America was evil and that the American military was a tool for evil. So when I listen to people like Anothony Blinken get on stage and talk about Rule of Law, that's exciting. But then I see them ignore Rule of Law for our allies. When I listen to General Milley talk about Trump, and General Mattis talk about Trump, I get excited. These are clearly educated individuals who understand fascism and want to do the right thing, but then they resign rather than fight or walk to church showing support for someone evil. I do not ever want to have to treat American Soil like a "battle space" because Americans want racial justice. If you want professionals to join the military, you have to support Rule of Law. You have to take care of political corruption at home. If you want professionals to join the military, you have to get rid of Stock Trading Nancy pelosi for openly supporting conflicts of interests. You have to put Trump in the slammer for literally trying to end constitutional rule, something military officers took an oath they are not living up to to do. You have to tax billionaires so the government is for the people and not for the people with billions. You have to end private funding of candidates for elections, which major American colleges (Harvard and Yale) say directly results in a government that looks more like plutocracy than democracy. Most of all, most of all, you have to convince professionals that the military is a place they can change the world for the better, rather than a place where you kill brown people to make sure the "spice" flows and billionaires pockets are lined.
MiguelX413 3y ago
The title should be edited to include a year.
Simon_ORourke 3y ago
This has all the historical overtones of McNamara's Morons [1], and those guys were far more likely to get killed or seriously injured in combat, basically because they were too dumb to process events quickly enough under pressure. While having (or not having) a high school diploma isn't necessarily a measure of intelligence, or lack thereof, it's a good enough proxy. I just hope anyone calling in an artillery strike in any future conflict can read a map first. [1] - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_100,000 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_100,000
phendrenad2 3y ago
Is there an officer shortage? Maybe they can drop the 4-year-degree requirement for officers, too.
- baybal2 3y ago
  [dead]
rahimnathwani 3y ago
I'm not sure what a high school diploma proves. In my local school district, of students that enter high school: - by 11th grade, ~50% meet state standards 11th grade standards for math - by 11th grade, ~50% meet state standards 11th grade standards for English - by 12th grade ~90% graduate
- Scubabear68 3y ago
  Lucky you. In our public school district, English test scores are slightly lower, Math is at about 30%, and Science is below 20%. Passing rate is 99%.
libomi6052 3y ago
[dead]
msk-lywenn 3y ago
Similar thing in France for the CRS a while back. CRS are a special kind of police that can be dispatched anywhere quickly in big packs. They're mostly here to "handle protests". They had trouble hiring so they lowered the required test score from 10/20 to 8/20.
- fransje26 3y ago
  As if they weren't brutally violent enough already..
paganel 3y ago
The coming obligatory mass conscription in the West will make all of this moot, anyway. The obesity pandemic will be a lot harder for many of the Western militaries to overcome, though.
- LAC-Tech 3y ago
  Mass conscription in the west would be disastrous for the west. This isn't the 20th century, we don't trust our institutions anymore, so militarily training the general population would end very poorly.
- samus 3y ago
  Mass conscription for what? The most dangerous bottleneck of western forces is supply of advanced weaponry, which is already taxed by the war in Ukraine. Even if these supply bottlenecks are fixed, it will continue to be a severe strain on public finances. And as you hint at, the draftees have to be trained to be more useful than being static targets. 21st century battlefields are very fast-paced and deadly and often asymmetric; all that stops an enemy from blowing up a target is air defense and missing knowledge about its precise location. The latter can be easily leaked by careless troops in a number of ways.
  - paganel 3y ago
    > 21st century battlefields are very fast-paced and deadly and often asymmetric; The current battlefield in Ukraine is anything but fast-paced, and this is the largest continental war we’ve had since May ‘45 (the War in Korea has some shots of having been bigger, but then only for one year or so, 1950).
    - samus 3y ago
      As you say, that's just the current phase of the war. No stalemate or operational lull holds forever. Anyways, that doesn't affect the rest of my argument.
robblbobbl 3y ago
Soldiers required ... for?
CommanderData 3y ago
Looks like there's going to be another war.
CraigRo 3y ago
Charles Fefferman skipped high school, went to college at 13, and got his PhD in math at 19. The Maryland department of education tracked down his parents, and accused them of not sending him to his; when they found out about what he was doing, they sent him a complimentary diploma. I'm sure the military has identified a pool of people that were excluded, but that they can use. Same with the people with tattoos
bryanlarsen 3y ago
How many young men do you know without facial hair, without a tattoo and that have never tried marijuana? The army's eligible pool is very small. If they were really serious they'd relax those requirements. And young women are kept out by the massive sexual harassment problem they haven't yet acknowledged.
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
Anon_Is_Truth 3y ago
[flagged]
deleted 3y ago
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sourcecodeplz 3y ago
Education trains your brain, regardless where you are getting it from. An untrained brain equals to a dumb individual who will make mistakes whatever he is doing.
34679 3y ago
Instead of trying to figure out how to recruit more soldiers, maybe we, as a society, should pursue policies that require fewer.
arctac 3y ago
Why do I get a feeling this is done to recruit all these illegal immigrants more easily?

126 points by walterbell 3y ago

ThisIsMyAltAcct 3y ago

This article needs a 2022 tag

walterbell 3y ago
Oops, posted the wrong link, Army (2022) vs Navy (2024), https://www.military.com/daily-news/2024/01/27/no-diploma-no-problem-navy-again-lowers-requirements-it-struggles-meet-recruitment-goals.html https://www.military.com/daily-news/2024/01/27/no-diploma-no...

JojoFatsani 3y ago

[flagged]

jruohonen 3y ago

I don't know how long the service is, but wouldn't providing high school therein be a win-win, then?

rtkwe 3y ago
Soldiers are generally quite busy with their military work to go through even a GED process.
- clipsy 3y ago
  Presumably the idea would be to test them on intake, assign them to GED prep classes accordingly, and begin basic once they've finished their education?
  - rtkwe 3y ago
    Quick google has claims most people prep and pass their GED in 3 months which is already longer than the basic training recruits go through. Depending on their MOS school they go to after that you're maybe adding 30-50% training time and that's assuming they can hit the average GED time.
randomdata 3y ago
~90% of those who meet the age requirements have completed high school. Anyone who hasn't completed high school by that point almost certainly can't, and won't be accepted into the army for the same reason. The small number of exceptions who could, but have chosen not to, aren't exactly going to be attracted to the army if you force them into doing something they have explicitly chosen not to do. Also, the article is from 2022 and the requirement was reinstated a week later, so this is moot anyway. At least as it pertains to the Army. Granted, the Navy lifted the same requirement on Friday. We shall see if they last longer than a week. There remains a strong social impetus, particularly in government, to paint a picture that you can't get a job without completing high school, even though everyone already completes it these days anyway...

unnamed76ri 3y ago

Less people being willing to go fight and die in pointless wars is at least a small positive sign for society.

huytersd 3y ago
Not a good sign for a country that depends on its military to maintain a hegemony. It’s also not like our “enemies” are reducing their armies or anything.
- abestic9 3y ago
  It’s not a numbers game anymore, it hasn’t been for decades.
  - chii 3y ago
    in an all out war, it certainly is a numbers game. There just hasn't been all out war in decades, but that doesn't mean one isn't around the corner. Being prepared is better than not.
    - RankingMember 3y ago
      What constitutes an all-out war in the modern era? If it includes nukes, numbers have little value. Even pulling nukes out of the equation, modern armaments make the idea of overwhelming the US with bodies storming the shores/borders an almost certainly futile strategy.
    - petre 3y ago
      Except those numbers now translate into money and resources needed to build units. In the past the units were human.
- pizza 3y ago
  Thought it was the dollar

deleted 3y ago

[deleted]

Duwensatzaj 3y ago

Hope they haven’t forgotten about Project 100,000 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_100,000 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_100,000 Another article is more explicit about exactly who isn’t joining the military anymore. https://www.military.com/daily-news/2024/01/10/army-sees-sharp-decline-white-recruits.html https://www.military.com/daily-news/2024/01/10/army-sees-sha...

jdksmdbtbdnmsm 3y ago
>Another article is more explicit about exactly who isn’t joining the military anymore. The article doesn't confirm whether the total of any other groups is dropping, but it can be inferred from the numbers given that recruiting is very low across the board. It's worth having a racial remark in the title for clicks alone.
- ThisIsMyAltAcct 3y ago
  > In 2018, 56.4% of new recruits were categorized as white. In 2023, that number had fallen to 44%. During that same five-year period, Black recruits have gone from 20% to 24% of the pool, and Hispanic recruits have risen from 17% to 24%, with both groups seeing largely flat recruiting totals but increasing as a percentage of incoming soldiers as white recruiting has fallen.
  - jdksmdbtbdnmsm 3y ago
    The use of proportions rather than actual totals means the number of recruits could have dropped by that same 12.4% in every category, in which case the focus on race is completely meaningless.
randomdata 3y ago
Well, they did reinstate the requirement a week later, so... https://www.defenseone.com/policy/2022/07/after-criticism-army-reinstates-high-school-diploma-requirement-recruitment-plummets/373919/ https://www.defenseone.com/policy/2022/07/after-criticism-ar...
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hipadev23 3y ago

If you want more recruits, you simply need to pay more.

thret 3y ago
US military are notoriously underpaid. Increase the base pay, increase the long-term incentives. They're not working for tips.
- johnnyanmac 3y ago
  The idea of military was that you have below average pay but insane benefits (and depending on the time, cultural respect), both directly and indirectly (There are/were so many places that give a military discount). The latter is falling off as of late (both directly and indirectly, again), so what's the point if you're not conscripted?
- refurb 3y ago
  They aren’t underpaid, at least not on the low end. A raw recruit (E1) gets $23,000 per year. Housing, food, work clothing and healthcare is paid for. After tax, it’s like ~$1,500 in completely discretionary income. This is why you get 19 year old new recruits buying new sports cars. They can afford it. The smart ones start socking away money while they are young. A new officer (O1) gets $43,000 per year. If they are married they can live off base and get a housing allowance. If lucky enough to get stationed in SF, that’s another $4,017 per month. So just base pay and allowance is $91,000. And the housing allowance is tax free, so it’s equivalent to making more than $100,000 per year. Then add on top sign on or enlistment bonuses especially for in demand MOSs, relocation allowances, etc. Then you put in 20 years and you get a pension you can live on and healthcare for the rest of your life. They aren’t making Silicon Valley money but it puts most members in firmly middle class territory.
  - thret 3y ago
    It's very difficult comparing salaries in different nations, because expenses vary so much. However, your comment confirms my opinion. I would like to see a 50% increase in that E1/E2/E3 base pay. I've worked with them - they earn it.

Syonyk 3y ago

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wtfwhateven 3y ago
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- Syonyk 3y ago
  On June 1, 2022, the Marines tweeted out a helmet with rainbow bullet tips for Pride Month: https://globalnews.ca/news/8888090/marines-rainbow-bullets-pride-lgbtq/ https://globalnews.ca/news/8888090/marines-rainbow-bullets-p... is one such link, you can find others. The US Army 2021 video, "Emma, The Calling," is exactly what I described: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C8-Yslv4PME https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C8-Yslv4PME And the "Army sees sharp decline in white recruits." https://www.military.com/daily-news/2024/01/10/army-sees-sharp-decline-white-recruits.html https://www.military.com/daily-news/2024/01/10/army-sees-sha... I could continue if I wanted, but I'll stop there, because I think I've made my point that "The things I claimed happened," did, in fact, happen. Even if you'd rather not accept them.
  - libomi6052 3y ago
    It's funny how "1984" style of Ministry of truth is alive and well and many of them pretend it's just fiction.
  - gettodachoppa 3y ago
    1. It's not happening, that's just a far-right conspiracy theory 2. It happened, but it was just an isolated incident 3. It's happening, and that's a good thing 4. It's always been happening, so what? No one ever claimed it never happened, that's just a far-right conspiracy theory.
  - wtfwhateven 3y ago
    >There are families in which four generations have served, with the current generation of fathers telling their kids, "You shouldn't go serve there, because of your skin color. Because my friends still in there are seeing people promoted or not based not on their skills and proven character, but on their skin color." what about this?

wingspar 3y ago

U.S. Navy too https://www.military.com/daily-news/2024/01/27/no-diploma-no-problem-navy-again-lowers-requirements-it-struggles-meet-recruitment-goals.html https://www.military.com/daily-news/2024/01/27/no-diploma-no...

jhelphenstine 3y ago

Missing in discussions about the US military recruiting problem is a discussion of the shift away from 20 year defined benefit pensions to the “Blended Retirement System.” When such a terrific deal slides off the table, economic incentives shift accordingly.

halJordan 3y ago
I disagree, the high 3 wasnt a good system. The difference between 2.0 and 2.5 % is minimal when you can completely lose the whole shebang at anytime for reasons that have nothing to do with your competence at any time between day 1 all the way through day 7304.
- dmoy 3y ago
  Also the vast majority don't get their 20. It's like >80% leaving before 20 yrs. The bigger contributing factors to declining enlistment are: general lack of support for the military among younger people (the latest round of forever wars didn't exactly help), better options in the civilian world (especially increasing benefits on student loan suppprt), and decreasing physical fitness (the increase in obesity rates directly lowers the available recruitment population).
  - AniseAbyss 3y ago
    People have different ideas about life. If you can get a 9-5 job that pays the bills why join the military and be deployed overseas for months on end not being a part of your family? The civilian sector has the same problem with truck drivers and maritime shipping.
    - dmoy 3y ago
      Yup exactly > The civilian sector has the same problem with truck drivers and maritime shipping. Hell, maritime anything. Even super local ferry work has a hard time recruiting.

chasil 3y ago

Perhaps greater effort on retention would help stem the decline. https://www.businessinsider.com/gen-z-american-army-soldiers-complain-food-pay-tiktok-2023-12 https://www.businessinsider.com/gen-z-american-army-soldiers... Edit: https://www.businessinsider.com/us-army-invites-back-vaccine-refusing-soldiers-amid-recruitment-crisis-2023-11 https://www.businessinsider.com/us-army-invites-back-vaccine...

eximius 3y ago

Oh good, so we continue to exploit the uneducated for our military so they won't realize how little we actually support veterans until it's too late.

abigail95 3y ago
Somewhat offensive to myself that because I don't have a high school diploma I don't have the agency to join the armed forces.
- BriggyDwiggs42 3y ago
  It’s somewhat more likely that you don’t statistically, yes. Admittedly I don’t really get the point when they already aptitude test, but I also like to hate the military so whatever.
  - abigail95 3y ago
    If you suck at statistics sure, I didn't fail high school. I left voluntarily for a better opportunity. If someone interprets that as the same as someone who tries to complete high school and fails they are the ones we should worry about. If you use something that people didn't do as a signal you run into all sorts of problems.
    - BriggyDwiggs42 3y ago
      True, I’d agree it’s a terrible proxy for aptitude.
randomdata 3y ago
> exploit the uneducated for our military Just the navy, who instituted a similar change on Friday. This article about the army is from 2022 and the army reverted the change a week later. High school completion is a requirement again. It remains to be seen if the navy makes it the fully week.
- 3y ago

everybodyknows 3y ago

Navy too! https://www.military.com/daily-news/2024/01/27/no-diploma-no-problem-navy-again-lowers-requirements-it-struggles-meet-recruitment-goals.html https://www.military.com/daily-news/2024/01/27/no-diploma-no...

klipklop 3y ago

A bit of sensationalism going on. They still have to pass a standardize test that mostly proves they have an IQ suitable for military service. There are people that could be a great soldier/servicemember that didn’t make it through high school. Some will flourish under a military environment that failed out of high school. I don’t really like people assuming somebody that didn’t graduate high school are somehow inferior or stupid people. The issue is complicated.

Waterluvian 3y ago
One thing it means is that they’re administering the test, not a school board. That may be relevant or ripe for abuse.
- rsanek 3y ago
  wouldn't be the first time -- https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_100,000 https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_100,000
  - MiguelX413 3y ago
    > m.
    - hbs18 3y ago
      The mobile version of wikipedia looks nicer on a desktop/laptop than the regular version.
- klipklop 3y ago
  It would seem to be in their self interest to not skew the test results. The military has done a lot of research on their testing. A soldier that is too incompetent is a danger to his/her comrades. Previous attempts to recruit soldiers with too low of an IQ was a disaster. More danger than help. I don’t really see how they would he less trustworthy than a school board. Especially considering the stakes.

shipscode 3y ago

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jorts 3y ago
They vaccinate for all sorts of diseases. Covid is no different. It’s a risk and threat to them being functional as an organization.
- libomi6052 3y ago
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- ggdG 3y ago
  > They vaccinate for all sorts of diseases. Covid is no different. But the covid vaccines ARE different: Vaccines typically take 10-15 years of research and clinical trials before approval [1]. The covid vaccines OTOH got developed, "tested" and approved within the timespan of less than a year. They literally had to invoke a sci-fi trope ("warp speed") to justify this timetable [2]. > It’s a risk and threat to them being functional as an organization. The injection poses a bigger threat to them as an organisation than the disease itself: men below 40 are 6 times more likely to get heart damage from the mRNA shot than from the disease [3]. And this for a disease that has a lower IFR than influenza among people younger than 60 [4]. Pre-2020, decades of research into vaccines for (other) coronaviruses only resulted in vaccines that either didn't work at all or led to enhanced disease [5]. After a gain-of-function experiment went south in Wuhan, all that hard-earned wisdom got thrown out of the window (along with the Nuremberg code [6]) for a panicked and rushed vaccination program. Yes, these vaccines improve the short-term relative outcomes for the elderly, the obese and the sick. About six months after vaccination you still are somewhat protected against symptoms, but are more likely to get infected than the non-vaccinated [7] [8] [9]. [1] https://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/basics/test-approve.html https://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/basics/test-approve.html [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Warp_Speed https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Warp_Speed [3] https://www.ahajournals.org/doi/10.1161/CIRCULATIONAHA.122.059970 https://www.ahajournals.org/doi/10.1161/CIRCULATIONAHA.122.0... [4] https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC9613797/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC9613797/ [5] https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4369385/#Sec12title https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4369385/#Sec12t... [6] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuremberg_Code https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuremberg_Code [7] https://ajph.aphapublications.org/doi/full/10.2105/AJPH.2022.307112 https://ajph.aphapublications.org/doi/full/10.2105/AJPH.2022... [8] https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2022.11.14.22282103v1.full.pdf https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2022.11.14.22282103v... [9] https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6736(22)00089-7/fulltext https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6...

decremental 3y ago

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Drblessing 3y ago
Prepare for the civil war. John Locke has not been forgotten.

b4ke 3y ago

They should institute a voluntary conscripted amnesty/asylum for those who entered into the country and are on immigration parole. This program could allow for retroactive application to spouses/children (no extended family transferability until completion of service contract). There would be no need for sign-on bonus, you could add additional qualifications for g.i. benefits in the form of naturalization. It would really be a net positive as they would be forced to assimilate into our society in a way that is a net benefit at many different layers of the civil stack. The kind of people who are willing to serve the country rather than acting as a sanctioned entitlement case would be a win/win. No?

atmavatar 3y ago
I'm a little worried that if we implement the "service guarantees citizenship" scheme you allude to, we'll be forced to fight a war against an interstellar insect race soon after.
- b4ke 3y ago
  No I didn’t say that or allude to it, voluntary conscripted amnesty. They would still have to naturalize as well, and only offer that after a sufficient period of service and all the rigors of training, ait, and actual term. Do you believe we are not already having an inter-domain/dimensional information war with something of a nature you describe? (Kind of kidding)
  - thaumasiotes 3y ago
    >> if we implement the "service guarantees citizenship" scheme you allude to > No I didn’t say that or allude to it Did you forget what you put in your own comment? >>> There would be no need for sign-on bonus, you could add additional qualifications for g.i. benefits in the form of naturalization.
    - b4ke 3y ago
      Your comment is dismissive, and unhelpful. I think if you were to maybe review the concept in a less shallow manner, you would see this is voluntary, for those already in country on parole anyways. If you think you can dismiss the concept by being disrespectful of your lack of depth I’d suggest you work on comprehension with logic puzzles or the like. All of what I said requires effort, which is not guaranteed, they are options for the motivated, which is what we want those coming to this country to hold of personal value. Have a nice day though.

hayst4ck 3y ago

I am a well educated individual. I did not have to work very hard at all for a well paying job after college from a respected company. I have skill sets that are absolutely in demand, particularly in areas the military would like. When China re-colonized Hong Kong I gave strong thought to joining the military. When Russia invaded Ukraine, I similarly felt called to join the military, if not to fight for Ukraine, to prepare to fight for Taiwan. The reason I won't join the military is because America does not support Rule of Law. We invaded a country under false pretenses and invaded another country because we could. The aftermath of Vietnam inundated popular culture and media with a clear message: America fucked up. The people I looked up to, Anthony Bourdain for example, hated people like Kissinger, and imparted that hatred to me. Bourdain showed America's military legacy in Asia. I heard about Haliburton profiteering. I heard about the military industrial complex. I heard about Lejune water, and burn pits, and trouble with Tricare. Military bases that pump cancer into the ground when there is a fire. People like Jon Stewart showed nightly how bad faith American journalism and politicians are. He interviewed the deputy secretary of defense who was aghast that someone might try to ask for accountability. Historians, like Timothy Snyder (Yale professor specializing in eastern european history) are saying that America is headed into very very dark times and writing guides on how to combat tyranny. Even today, America is actively supporting a genocidal regime in Israel, spitting in the face of a rules based international order. Rules for your enemies, but not your friends is not Rule of Law, it is exactly the opposite. I grew up understanding that America was evil and that the American military was a tool for evil. So when I listen to people like Anothony Blinken get on stage and talk about Rule of Law, that's exciting. But then I see them ignore Rule of Law for our allies. When I listen to General Milley talk about Trump, and General Mattis talk about Trump, I get excited. These are clearly educated individuals who understand fascism and want to do the right thing, but then they resign rather than fight or walk to church showing support for someone evil. I do not ever want to have to treat American Soil like a "battle space" because Americans want racial justice. If you want professionals to join the military, you have to support Rule of Law. You have to take care of political corruption at home. If you want professionals to join the military, you have to get rid of Stock Trading Nancy pelosi for openly supporting conflicts of interests. You have to put Trump in the slammer for literally trying to end constitutional rule, something military officers took an oath they are not living up to to do. You have to tax billionaires so the government is for the people and not for the people with billions. You have to end private funding of candidates for elections, which major American colleges (Harvard and Yale) say directly results in a government that looks more like plutocracy than democracy. Most of all, most of all, you have to convince professionals that the military is a place they can change the world for the better, rather than a place where you kill brown people to make sure the "spice" flows and billionaires pockets are lined.

MiguelX413 3y ago

The title should be edited to include a year.

Simon_ORourke 3y ago

This has all the historical overtones of McNamara's Morons [1], and those guys were far more likely to get killed or seriously injured in combat, basically because they were too dumb to process events quickly enough under pressure. While having (or not having) a high school diploma isn't necessarily a measure of intelligence, or lack thereof, it's a good enough proxy. I just hope anyone calling in an artillery strike in any future conflict can read a map first. [1] - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_100,000 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_100,000

phendrenad2 3y ago

Is there an officer shortage? Maybe they can drop the 4-year-degree requirement for officers, too.

baybal2 3y ago
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rahimnathwani 3y ago

I'm not sure what a high school diploma proves. In my local school district, of students that enter high school: - by 11th grade, ~50% meet state standards 11th grade standards for math - by 11th grade, ~50% meet state standards 11th grade standards for English - by 12th grade ~90% graduate

Scubabear68 3y ago
Lucky you. In our public school district, English test scores are slightly lower, Math is at about 30%, and Science is below 20%. Passing rate is 99%.

libomi6052 3y ago

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msk-lywenn 3y ago

Similar thing in France for the CRS a while back. CRS are a special kind of police that can be dispatched anywhere quickly in big packs. They're mostly here to "handle protests". They had trouble hiring so they lowered the required test score from 10/20 to 8/20.

fransje26 3y ago
As if they weren't brutally violent enough already..

paganel 3y ago

The coming obligatory mass conscription in the West will make all of this moot, anyway. The obesity pandemic will be a lot harder for many of the Western militaries to overcome, though.

LAC-Tech 3y ago
Mass conscription in the west would be disastrous for the west. This isn't the 20th century, we don't trust our institutions anymore, so militarily training the general population would end very poorly.
samus 3y ago
Mass conscription for what? The most dangerous bottleneck of western forces is supply of advanced weaponry, which is already taxed by the war in Ukraine. Even if these supply bottlenecks are fixed, it will continue to be a severe strain on public finances. And as you hint at, the draftees have to be trained to be more useful than being static targets. 21st century battlefields are very fast-paced and deadly and often asymmetric; all that stops an enemy from blowing up a target is air defense and missing knowledge about its precise location. The latter can be easily leaked by careless troops in a number of ways.
- paganel 3y ago
  > 21st century battlefields are very fast-paced and deadly and often asymmetric; The current battlefield in Ukraine is anything but fast-paced, and this is the largest continental war we’ve had since May ‘45 (the War in Korea has some shots of having been bigger, but then only for one year or so, 1950).
  - samus 3y ago
    As you say, that's just the current phase of the war. No stalemate or operational lull holds forever. Anyways, that doesn't affect the rest of my argument.

robblbobbl 3y ago

Soldiers required ... for?

CommanderData 3y ago

Looks like there's going to be another war.

CraigRo 3y ago

Charles Fefferman skipped high school, went to college at 13, and got his PhD in math at 19. The Maryland department of education tracked down his parents, and accused them of not sending him to his; when they found out about what he was doing, they sent him a complimentary diploma. I'm sure the military has identified a pool of people that were excluded, but that they can use. Same with the people with tattoos

bryanlarsen 3y ago

How many young men do you know without facial hair, without a tattoo and that have never tried marijuana? The army's eligible pool is very small. If they were really serious they'd relax those requirements. And young women are kept out by the massive sexual harassment problem they haven't yet acknowledged.

deleted 3y ago
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Anon_Is_Truth 3y ago

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sourcecodeplz 3y ago

Education trains your brain, regardless where you are getting it from. An untrained brain equals to a dumb individual who will make mistakes whatever he is doing.

34679 3y ago

Instead of trying to figure out how to recruit more soldiers, maybe we, as a society, should pursue policies that require fewer.

arctac 3y ago

Why do I get a feeling this is done to recruit all these illegal immigrants more easily?