14 ms·

VW is putting buttons back in cars

378 points by sklargh 3y ago

jqpabc123 3y ago
Touch screen is good for setup and info display but should not be used for active control while driving. Hiding the wipers or lights or temperature controls deep in menus is a flippin' disaster. Hyundai has about the right balance from what I have seen.
- silisili 3y ago
  IMO it shouldn't be a touchscreen at all. By nature you have to look at it to interact. Just have a nontouch screen for display purposes, and physical buttons to interact with it as necessary.
  - doubled112 3y ago
    I can't put my phone in a cup holder and change songs at a red light, they'll take my license. Yet the car comes with a device I also need to take my eyes off the road and poke around at.
    - Tagbert 3y ago
      Which you don’t need to poke at while you are driving.
      - kube-system 3y ago
        Unless there are safety critical controls on those screens, which was the root complaint in this thread.
      - zerd 3y ago
        You've never needed to change the temperature while driving? Or turn on/off heated seats? Or adjust fan speed? Or turn on recirculating air?
    - jqpabc123 3y ago
      Yes, it's kinda comical isn't it. It's illegal to use your cellphone while driving in many areas --- so they built a cellphone UI into the car --- which is every bit as distracting and dangerous to use while driving.
- mikestew 3y ago
  Hyundai has about the right balance from what I have seen. Owner of a '23 Ioniq 5 here. Hyundai has struck a balance, but not quite the right balance. There are physical buttons, but they don't control the climate or seat warmers. In fact, one of my few annoyances with this car is when I use the physical volume button, my finger often brushes up against the capacitive "climate" button area, hence flipping on the heat when I just wanted to turn the podcast down. Now, there are the usual physical controls like wiper and turn signals, but that's not because Hyundai are paragons of control design, but rather because they're not idiots. And the complaints above are not that big a deal, as the "buttons" are right at hand. But with just a minor tweak or two, they could have done much better. And, as other commenters point out, it could be much, much worse.
  - coldpie 3y ago
    Ioniq 5 is at the top of my list for when we go car shopping, probably late next year. Coming from a pre-touchscreen-era 2011 Mazda, I'm pretty nervous about the UI disaster cars have turned into these days. I wish Mazda would build a good EV, but it sounds like it's not happening any time in the near term.
    - bdcravens 3y ago
      Also consider the EV6, since they're the same platform (very much the same, though have a few UX differences, as I described in another comment)
      - coldpie 3y ago
        Cheers, will do.
    - mikestew 3y ago
      Oh, it's not so bad that I would not consider buying the car (like we did with VW). Day-to-day it's not a huge deal. If the auto-climate is already set to what you like, then you just hit the clearly-labelled, but-still-capacitive, "climate" button and you're done. And the voice control actually...works; what will they think of next? :-) But it certainly could be better.
jdewerd 3y ago
About damn time.
FredPret 3y ago
I always buy gadgets with physical buttons when possible. - Microwave ovens should have a knob-button combo that I can work in 0.5 seconds without looking or reading the manual - Ovens and stoves should have knobs I can turn with wet or oven-mitted hands - Cars should have volume buttons I can twist or smack into silence without thinking about it for more than a moment - Same with seat heaters, wipers, and anything I might do while the car is moving
- jpk 3y ago
  > Ovens and stoves should have knobs I can turn with wet or oven-mitted hands Ooh, yeah this is a big one for me now. A few years ago I got a new range and the controls are all capacitive touch. Mitts are a minor inconvenience, but also sometimes cooking is messy and liquid gets spilled here or there. Now imagine how your phone works when you get some rain on the screen... yeah, it's not great. I've learned enough tricks to live with it since it's honestly the only thing I don't like about that range, but next time I'll probably shell out a little more for knobs if I have to.
  - FredPret 3y ago
    There's a reason the most important controls on phones (which are all about interactive interfaces) are physical buttons!
  - kube-system 3y ago
    I have a clothes dryer with capacitive touch buttons. When the ambient conditions are just right, static will build up when it is drying clothes, and it will change its own settings randomly.
    - maximus-decimus 3y ago
      Aren't dryers grounded?
      - kube-system 3y ago
nesky 3y ago
I have a 2021 Mazda and I can't say enough good things about it's infotainment interface. The dial and 5 buttons on the center console behind the shifter is wonderful, I can glance at the screen while using the dial and I know what each of the 5 buttons do across the system. I've been in a few vehicles from Honda, Toyota and Chevy and the Mazda is multiples better at interacting with the system while driving.
- llamaInSouth 3y ago
  > The dial and 5 buttons on the center console behind the shifter is wonderful One of my favorite feature on Mazdas... never seen anything like it before
  - bobbytables1 3y ago
    I’m not sure, but what’s being described sounds a lot like BMWs iDrive which I love and has been around for a while(15+ years).
    - llamaInSouth 3y ago
      Basically, I can access it without looking while keeping my arm on the arm rest
    - pivo 3y ago
      That's funny because as I recall the BMW iDrive was widely derided when it came out. I have one on my old BMW and I like it, never understood the objections.
      - eesmith 3y ago
        Here's an NYT article at the time, from https://web.archive.org/web/20150527202158/https://www.nytimes.com/2002/12/01/magazine/the-way-we-live-now-12-01-02-problem-solver-driven-to-distraction.html https://web.archive.org/web/20150527202158/https://www.nytim... : > Car enthusiasts were not smitten with iDrive; many found that the system had the opposite of its intended effect, requiring more, not less, visual attention. Automobile Week wrote that iDrive ''turned the 'experience' of driving the car into a computerized affair.'' And even experts who sympathize with the impulse behind iDrive note its shortcomings. ''I spent an hour experimenting in a simulator, and I got lost in the menus,'' says Don Norman, the author of ''The Design of Everyday Things.'' BMW countered by including a cheat sheet that can be affixed to the steering wheel for befuddled parking valets. Eventually, some initially skeptical reviewers have conceded that once accustomed to it, they find the iDrive indispensable; however, that acclimation has taken as long as three months. Norman wrote more about it at https://jnd.org/design-as-communication/ https://jnd.org/design-as-communication/ . > By logic, the iDrive was a superior device. Alas, people function through stories, not logic. Moreover, people are spatial, we remember where things are in space, whereas the iDrive destroyed spatiality. And finally, the stories we remember and the conceptual models we prefer have to do with how a particular device functions: heating and cooling the automobile, changing the station of the radio, checking what distance remains for our trip. Each activity requires a separate story, separate control, and a separate location for operation. Alas, the iDrive collapsed everything into one location.
coolbreezetft22 3y ago
Good. I have an ID4 and really like but the touch panel for climate controls is definitely a nuisance, physical buttons are definitely preferable. Glad to see this trend is going in reverse.
- balls187 3y ago
  I have the climate control to resume, so I don't often need to adjust it. I also use the siri shortcut to start climate control a few minutes before I leave the house.
karaterobot 3y ago
I bought 3 VWs, then switched to a Mazda for my last car after they went full-touchscreen. And I told my dealer that was the reason when they called me. I assume they ran that up to the boardroom in Germany, and that's why this changed. You're welcome, everybody. /s > This is reassuring for the simple fact that actual buttons just work. The touch sliders and whatnot in the Mk8 Golf and ID.4 are finicky, only operating like they should some of the time. They also aren't backlit, making them difficult to find and use in the dark. I'd frame it differently. It's not that, under certain circumstances, buttons work better than touchscreens. It's that there are particular situations when touchscreens are superior to physical buttons (nav is one of them), and for every other use case, buttons provide a more intuitive, consistent, discoverable, pleasurable experience for users. Because I can do GPS nav on my phone anyway, if I have to choose one, I'd say it's reasonable to conclude that physical controls are superior in general as UI for cars. The other problem with touchscreen interfaces is that, paradoxically, they can result in worse design. You'd think that an all-software interface would give designers more options. What it seems to do—and many designers will recognize this antipattern from the real world—is make it so that you don't get as much time to think about the right design, and you don't have to make the difficult decisions that result in a simple, opinionated design. Instead, the UI ends up being an afterthought because it's just software, and every VP with a dumb idea gets to have it crammed into the design. That's why touchscreen controls for cars still suck, 10 years into them being ubiquitous, while a dashboard from the 1970s can be controlled by a child.
- jansan 3y ago
  > I bought 3 VWs, then switched to a Mazda for my last car after they went full-touchscreen. And I told my dealer that was the reason when they called me. I assume they ran that up to the boardroom in Germany, and that's why this changed. You're welcome, everybody. /s Thank you, sweetheart!!!
- matsemann 3y ago
  The VWs/Cupras I've driven recently have had these insane buttons on the steering wheel, that aren't physical but supposedly does some weird vibration/haptic feedback when pressed. Makes it absolutely impossible to control the cruise control etc. Just insane. Reason alone for me not considering those cars at all when buying.
ksec 3y ago
Just like everything else I remember at the time most of HN were singing songs and praise about the Tesla infotainment interface and everything touch screen. People who preferred buttons were the minorities. "You already have to look at buttons for playing songs or X why not make everything touch screen." Now the tide has finally turned. Sigh.
- CrzyLngPwd 3y ago
  Why sigh?
  - CrzyLngPwd 3y ago
    Why downvote a simple question?
    - jansan 3y ago
      Comments without content and humor is a sure fire way on HN to get downvoted.
      - CrzyLngPwd 3y ago
        Oh the drama. I'll downvote them, as payback haha.
  - ksec 3y ago
    I had a rant about a the whole thing, but I deleted it before posting but somehow left the sign there.
- mqus 3y ago
  I think in VWs case there was the additional circumstance that their touch screen was just abysmal.
- bdcravens 3y ago
  I haven't driven a Tesla, but perhaps the interface is more intuitive? I feel like on VW and others with terrible interfaces, it was more of an afterthought, kinda like a web app that spent $200k on the API and then had a budget of $10k for the front end that needed to go live in a couple of weeks.
Ajay-p 3y ago
That's good to hear. I test drove a Range Rover and it was bewildering. Buttons would change function based on which mode they were in. It became very confusing very quickly and I had to pull over and spend a few minutes to figure it out. Even then it was awful.
- cpursley 3y ago
  Were you really considering one? They're rated consistently at the bottom in terms of reliability and have for 30 years or more. Porsche and BMW make a much higher quality vehicle in that price range. (Don't get me wrong, I'd love an old Defender 90; those are cool)
jansan 3y ago
I had a Volkswagen Arteon Shooting Brake as a rental car on holiday this summer. Me and my family just loved the car, but the buttons on the steering wheel were really weird. I am not sure if you can get used to it, but I really prefer classic buttons on the steering wheel, so I get clear feedback when pressing them. Too bad the Arteon will be phased out and the ID7, which looks like a great car, will have the same buttons. At least the new Passat seems to get the haptic buttons again.
- hawski 3y ago
  Off-topic: Is this only my perception or many things lately that come in single digit tiers (with some mostly irrelevant prefixes)? It is not a bad trend really (number big -> thing pricey), but funny to see.
  - jansan 3y ago
    Volkswagen just wanted to make everything new with their electric cars. Therefore they chose the "ID" prefix, which is probably supposed to sound futuristic to the average buyer. But Audi for example had something very similar going on for a long time with their A2, A3, ... A8 and Q3, Q4, ... Q8.
rambambram 3y ago
Even before I used adblockers I purposefully bought a speakerset with one big volume knob to turn down the volume whenever an ad or otherwise annoying sound 'hit' my computer. No more fiddling with mouse clicks in menus to regulate the volume. Also no buttons to gradually turn down the volume step-by-step, just swing the wheel. Best purchase ever for peace of mind.
- bdcravens 3y ago
  I'm spoiled by keyboards that have a single button for mute. That said, one of the best keyboards I've owned was a Das Keyboard Pro with a giant volume knob like you described.
  - rambambram 3y ago
    Nice one! Integrated in the keyboard would be even better for me.
deleted 3y ago
[deleted]
bdcravens 3y ago
My wife has a 2023 ID.4. As the article says, it's a good EV ruined by the touch controls. It is without a doubt the worst UX I've experienced in any car. Prime example: a touch toggle with no real feedback to switch between the front and rear window controls, since there's only one button.
- balls187 3y ago
  (also a driver of a 2023 id4): That switch between rear and front windows is mindbogglingly terrible UX. Other bad UX: I also only have one user profile setup and I have to hit "okay" every time I start my car. The self parking feature works maybe 40% of the time. You cannot disable child locks independently, it's either on or off. The alert that my phone is charging everytime I put it into the wireless charging spot. Cannot disable assists without disabling acc.
  - cco 3y ago
    > I also only have one user profile setup and I have to hit "okay" every time I start my car. I blame Netflix, fairly or not, for this UI pattern. The idea of "choosing a profile" on startup is a UX that I don't think was common before Netflix made it the de facto in streaming. Now every video streaming service, regardless of how many profile _actually_ exist (for me, only one), asks you to pick a profile on startup. Absolutely annoying.
acd 3y ago
Airplane computers already have touch knob interface figured out. Display in the middle physicall buttons and knobs to control the interface.
jmye 3y ago
Great that they're putting them back, but even then, the included pictures make it clear they have no idea why they're putting them back or what the actual issue was with removing them. Hiding them, essentially, behind the steering wheel on the driver's left hand side instead of putting them back in the center console is really, really dumb. Less dumb than the touchscreen, but still dumb.
- boppo1 3y ago
  It's so people get into accidents and they can say 'oh told you so'
tw04 3y ago
Thread from yesterday: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38678853 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38678853
- dang 3y ago
  That one only spent 21 minutes on HN's front page and the source looks a bit dodgier, so maybe we'll let the current thread run as well. Interested readers might want to look at both.
NotYourLawyer 3y ago
Tesla please read this article.
- ojosilva 3y ago
  UI is hard for any carmaker to get right. The target user range (from pops to teen to soccer mom to SV tycoon) is way, way wider than the typical user that gets a figma-designed UX on top of React. Being conservative pays off in this arena, but, duh, we do need innovation and evolution in cars too, specially . I tend to get confused when cars have too many buttons, console cluster areas and there are cars where, after years as a owner, I just couldn't find the alert button, the rear defogger or some of the other "quick-fire" buttons, such as the "resume" cruise position on the steering wheel right joystick on my wife's Kia. Yes, things buried deep in a menu can also be annoying. To me the best compromise is: give me a steering-wheel "mouse" so that I can at least hit a shortcut somewhere without lifting my hands off the steering wheel.
lnsru 3y ago
Audi e-tron 50 or A6 digital cockpit disasters should go into design books: https://www.leasefetcher.co.uk/guides/car-technology/audi-virtual-cockpit https://www.leasefetcher.co.uk/guides/car-technology/audi-vi... Screens on the left, on the right and in the middle. Good luck playing with that on autobahn speeds.
toddmorey 3y ago
Woohoo collective sanity prevails! Now let’s do Tesla!
jessriedel 3y ago
Does anyone have a reasonable explanation for why this is done? > Then there's the ID.4, which only has two window switches on the driver's door, with a separate button that shifts their controls between the front and rear windows. https://www.thedrive.com/news/vw-ceo-admits-frustrating-golf-id-4-interiors-did-a-lot-of-damage https://www.thedrive.com/news/vw-ceo-admits-frustrating-golf... Unreal. Note that explanations like "they want to make everything software" don't work, because it was still physical buttons. At best you are reducing the number of physical buttons by two, but then also increasing the number of haptic buttons by one. Here is a video by VW that tries to explain it. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yDj4sSyNl_Y https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yDj4sSyNl_Y Just absolute lunacy.
- agloe_dreams 3y ago
  Designers running rampant with no UX oversight combined with 'Hey it is cheaper'. Anything to look cool to the next buyer.
- wmeredith 3y ago
  In my career, I've found that a lot of poor decisions like this get made in a committee that's already been at each other's throats for 7 hours and just wants to go home for the day.
  - ska 3y ago
    And option 3 is 11c/unit cheaper.
- entrox 3y ago
  > Does anyone have a reasonable explanation for why this is done? It‘s cheaper. That’s all there is to it. Automotive design is heavily influenced by bill—of-materials cost, there are committees upon committees deliberating and ultimately deciding on saving cents per unit.
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
- 3y ago
browningstreet 3y ago
..and the piano black stuff please. I recently watched this video: "NEW BYD Seal vs Tesla Model 3 vs VW ID.7" https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y-f9mLCxgrw https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y-f9mLCxgrw Shocked at how ugly the VW interface was, esp in their next flagship. I will say this: I used to have the first gen VW CC. Loved that car, especially the physical "Jump" (that's how it was labeled) button that took you to the first radio station preset. So I got used to ordering my music stations by preference, so I could move through the list by the steering wheel arrows but go back directly to #1 whenever I wanted. Can't believe how much I miss that feature.
- FirmwareBurner 3y ago
  >Shocked at how ugly the VW interface was, esp in their next flagship. And bear in mind that this is the end product after VW spent billions on a sister spin-off company, Cariad, that would just focus on creating the best possible in-car software separate from their archaic car business. And this is what they got. Now they're gonna lay off thousands. There's something with big German companies and consumer facing software that never manages to click no matter how much money they spend. If you have a broken design culture/process with terrible managers, it won't matter how much money you spend or how many people you lay off.
w-m 3y ago
I would expect something like a new VW car interface, that is put into millions of cars, to pass some kind of internal design review. How do these things (like touch controlled AC sliders without backlight) get introduced, which would take two minutes of usability testing to be thrown out? Can this just be explained by cost savings, or is there something else going on?
- newsclues 3y ago
  The entire industry shifted, from the suppliers to OEMs.
ChrisArchitect 3y ago
[dupe] More discussion yesterday: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38678853 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38678853
egberts1 3y ago
Eureka! Now i am going back to VW again
eknkc 3y ago
I have a hybrid volvo with 5 drive modes. In order to change the drive mode you touch a small settings icon on bottom right corner. Touch Drive on the navigation list and then touch the desired mode. Whoever thought this was a good idea is an imbecile.
tonymet 3y ago
I personally prefer tactile interfaces on everything — cars, home appliances, tools , etc. But producers are not to blame here. Consumers are buying these products based on appearance and not usability. The flashy-but-useless UI trend will continue until consumers purchasing decisions change. If VW produced a 90s style interior today, would anyone buy it? Yes it would be more usable and safer , but it wouldn’t sell.
- FuriouslyAdrift 3y ago
  The Corrado was amazing in its day! https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Volkswagen_Corrado https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Volkswagen_Corrado
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
- Neikius 3y ago
  This is a good point. Some of us would want different products. Is there just not enough of us or is this a situation similar to the instant fashion where someone else just decides what is "best for the people"?
  - tonymet 3y ago
    Some markets are big enough to support these niches . My Gaggia Espresso machine built today could easily be mistaken for a 1950s product. Cars suffer from a few issues. The biggest one is regulatory . It’s prohibitive for any manufacturer to break from the trend. A 1990s-style vehicle would be illegal today because of DOT & EPA mandates. And auto makers try to employ re-usable components that are DOT certified.
efields 3y ago
In the ID4’s steering wheel buttons are sub-par. In a d-pad layout, right hand, they decided an “up/down” was necessary so they made vol- and vol+ left and right. Well now you can’t have skip/back, because those _have_ to be left/right. Meanwhile everyone’s phone vol-/+ is vertically oriented, up/down, so I’d argue that’s a folk default. Here’s the thing: I don’t use the up/down buttons for everyday use. I’m guessing they work a menu. They are clearly an over-prioritized affordance. And I’m stuck with it until the lease is up. I’ve done 40k miles in a model 3. The cabin temps are automatic to the temp I like. I never change it. It’s easy to pick the last few things I listened to from the touch screens. I can use Siri for other things (Bluetooth, no CarPlay)… buttons are overrated.
agloe_dreams 3y ago
Everyone - This isn't about the touch screen. This is about the buttons in recent VWs that are touch based, including the steering wheel and window selector switch for the window buttons. All of these are capacitive and are horrible.
- Neikius 3y ago
  Yeah, capacitive buttons, my old nemesis. Worst of both worlds. Guess I need to read up why those were invented even.
indymike 3y ago
One of the things I really like about my Subaru is the over-abundance of buttons, and the really hands on wheel button controls. The touch screen is perfectly supplemental and that makes it much less irritating.
tahoeskibum 3y ago
I guess I'm in a minority, as I like the minimalist elegance of a Tesla touchscreen and voice controls.
- crabmusket 3y ago
  For me, "I press the button and it does what I wanted" is both minimalist and elegant. Form must follow function.
  - primax 3y ago
    I'd disagree, because a button for everything means a button for every function. This very quickly becomes cluttered, which is the opposite of minimalist.
    - crabmusket 3y ago
      Everything can be done badly; a digital design can be just as cluttered as a physical one. And conversely, a physical design with few, well-chosen functions doesn't need to be cluttered. I also didn't say I wanted a button for every function. But this is getting off into the weeds. My aim was to say that "minimalism" can be applied in different ways. For example, minimalism in the number of features, or in the complexity of the overall system, or in the ease of operating it.
- stonogo 3y ago
  This is honestly the first time I've ever heard anyone describe Tesla's "glue a giant iPad to a dashboard" approach to interface design as being elegant. I'm guessing the voice controls are the elegant part? Because that screen is my least favorite part of my Tesla, and my Tesla-owning friends feel the same.
FuriouslyAdrift 3y ago
I would be willing to pay an extra $5k just to have the exact layout of the 2006 Honda CR-V. I could manage every setting of that vehicle without even looking. It was standardised across most Hondas, so I could do the same in any other vehicle of the same model era range. https://static0.topspeedimages.com/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/jpg/200605/2006-honda-cr-v-29.jpg?q=50&fit=contain&w=755&h=430&dpr=1.5 https://static0.topspeedimages.com/wordpress/wp-content/uplo...
- twisteriffic 3y ago
  05/06 CRV were the best vehicles Honda ever made. Absolutely reliable and super easy to work on. Crazy amount of rear legroom. A hatch that swings sideways instead of up. Roof rails that you can bolt a 2x4 to to haul stuff around. And they have a picnic table in the back!
1-6 3y ago
Buttons aren’t necessary if the UI doesn’t suck.
- JohnFen 3y ago
  I'd love to see even a single example of this being true. How can a touch screen UI be so good that it can be operated without looking at it?
raminf 3y ago
Have a 2023 ID.4. There are three things I do most frequently: - Connect my phone via CarPlay (as only user). - Adjust AC depending on outside temperature and passengers. - Plug car in at home to charge after midnight (cheaper rates). In all three cases, the car forgets previous settings, requires multiple taps (up to 5-6 at a time), or makes it hard to find the screen to make the adjustment. My last car ran fine for 20+ years. This is the third VW I've ever driven; the first two were a long time ago. I intentionally leased this one since I figured EV technology would evolve, so best to hold off before purchasing outright. Unless they figure out how to make those features be 0-touch (or even 1-touch) operations, this will be the last VW for me. The EV part works fine, but I grit my teeth every time I get in or out of the car.
- magicalhippo 3y ago
  My sister got an earlier ID.4, and after a weekend trip to our cabin I got to experience the horrible AC controls. I got a Renault Megane e-Tech this summer, and it does the things you mention right. Not only does it remember AC settings, CarPlay/Android Auto and such per profile (my SO uses Android Auto, I don't), but it has physical buttons for adjusting temperature, fan speed, max AC, rear window heater and air recycling. While they have physical buttons they can also be adjusted via the voice interface of course. Having physical buttons for those key operations is one of the reasons we got it. Not having it was a hard pass. Compared to our previous BMW i3, I also really enjoy having easy access to the regen settings via paddles on the steering wheel. I live in the suburbs, so drive a lot on both fast and slow roads, and actively switching between regen settings depending on speed limit and traffic makes it more enjoyable to drive.
  - petre 3y ago
    We rented a cheap 2022 Clio this spring and I was really impressed with how ergonomic the controls were. The car actually did everything I wanted for me, even automatically closing the doors when I left or openng them when I was nearby.
leetharris 3y ago
I think the transition is jarring for many people and while ultimately I think physical buttons are often better, I am the type that will gladly accept a little degradation in favor of progress and minimalism. I also think there's an extremely vocal minority that feels like no-buttons is backwards progress. Note, this is not an excuse or justification for touchscreen-only interfaces, but my personal feelings towards the matter. I have two Teslas and I have never found the touchscreen to be a problem when the "automatic" setting is GOOD. For example, I almost never touch the AC. I set it to the temperature I like and it keeps me comfortable during the entire ride. However, when things like the automatic windshield wipers are bad (and they constantly fluctuate between disastrous and good enough between software updates), I get really frustrated because I have to tinker with the bullshit screen too much. Personally, I think the end game is minimalist physical buttons (some multipurpose) + software that is actually good enough to not interact with the touchscreen very often. Most companies that aren't Tesla really struggle on the latter portion.4 After having these 2 cars for a couple of years, I find most cars extremely cluttered and almost claustrophobic. I really like how clean and simple the Tesla interior is. I hope we don't overcorrect back into the 2010s and even 80s style of "put a button right in front for EVERYTHING." But I do think there's a ton of room for healthy middle ground.
- tremon 3y ago
  So your argument is basically, "touchscreens are OK as long as I don't have to actually use them"? And I don't get your argument about degradation in favour of progress -- progress towards what, exactly?
  - leetharris 3y ago
    Yes. When I am charging, or not moving, I GREATLY prefer the touchscreen over hundreds of physical buttons scattered all over the car. The minimalism is appreciated. Less moving parts to break, less clutter, and everything is extremely centralized. When I am driving 85mph obviously I don't want to have to look over at a screen to adjust windshield wiper settings. One day, ideally most of this stuff is handled automatically or through a simple interface like voice. Stuff like window controls should always exist, but things like windshield wipers or speed should ideally be automated one day.
rsync 3y ago
Too bad Volvo needed to burn an entire (upcoming) model generation with their own UI/UX experimentation: https://cdn.motor1.com/images/mgl/Akg2QO/s1/2025-volvo-ex30-first-ride-review.webp https://cdn.motor1.com/images/mgl/Akg2QO/s1/2025-volvo-ex30-... All I wanted was an electric version of the V90 wagon. Instead, Volvo wants to sell us space-cars ... Tron-mobiles ... eInitiative iCars. Since a model generation is something like five years long, it's going to be a while.
- ProllyInfamous 3y ago
  Two summers ago, I went Volvo shopping. The dealer was absolutely disconnected from his product offerings, and ultimately I left frustrated. The "Inflation Reduction" Act revoked their rebate, which had me balk at Volvo's pricing. Thankfully, I did not purchase a Recharge Hybrid Volvo (they changed mid-year, as did their infotainment provider).
adolph 3y ago
There are also aftermarket physical buttons that can be added to cars. I thought I had seen an esp32 CAN project but can't find it now. Here is a commercial example: https://enhauto.com/ https://enhauto.com/
rompledorph 3y ago
The TV in the center console needs an off button
mortenjorck 3y ago
Related, it's good to see that while VW was unable to resist the cargo cult of touchscreen maximalism and must now course-correct, they presumably (based on the images in the article) never adopted the dreadful ergonomics pioneered by the Prius and popularized by Tesla of eschewing a driver-side instrument cluster for a single, central screen.
wand3r 3y ago
I am definitely in the minority here. I want a touch screen and I want control. I did (and do) love the VW tactical knobs in my VW Golf, but the Mazda knob is horrific for me. I want dumb TVs that I can control in my house. I want dumb screens that mirror my phones UX in my car. I want dumb pipes delivering my internet. I want control. That said, I do agree outside of "infotainment" I want knobs and buttons for the actual car processes like A/C, windows, etc.
- JohnFen 3y ago
  > I do agree outside of "infotainment" I want knobs and buttons for the actual car processes like A/C, windows, etc. I'd be fine with that, since I wouldn't be using the "infotainment" stuff to begin with. But everything that I need to adjust while driving needs to be a physical control that I don't have to look at when I use it.
jimjimjim 3y ago
At last, touch screens are terrible for most things while you are driving. Misclicks and finger slide make for a frustrating experience in my opinion. Even just having some physical buttons under or alongside the screen would be great. A large physical ok/yes/go button and a cancel/no/escape button that I can hit without concentrating would solve 3/4 of the interaction problems.
vletal 3y ago
In my first car (1989 Ford Escort, 3-door) I could adjust both temperature and radio volume without loosing eye contact with the road. I felt under control and safe. Recently I've rented a Tesla Model 3 and man, how far did we come since then. If just the voice control did not keep telling me "Sorry, I can not do that yet". My dad (65yo) just bought a new car with a mediocre central display. It makes me super uneasy to see him drive. The man used to slap me over my wrist for looking at my phone while driving. Now it takes him 1+ seconds JUST TO adjust his eye sight to be able to while switching from the road to the display and back! Then he has to navigate the touch menus... I am really worried he is going to hurt himself or someone in 10 years time he will likely own this car.
trimal 3y ago
I don't know why car manufacturer need to re-invent things in interior. Many people are familiar with shifting knob but now companies are introducing switches (Tesla takes it up notch in their latest cyber truck, they are putting drive switches below rear view mirror) I would prefer for critical activities like wiper, heater where I can rely on muscle memory.
JohnFen 3y ago
Here's hoping that VW is a trendsetter on this.
deckard1 3y ago
Here's a good video from Jason Cammisa about the new (at the time) mk8: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XGbPHp6QfkQ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XGbPHp6QfkQ I had a mk7 and it is the best interior + UX I've seen in a car. Everything is as simple and ergonomic as possible. The volume adjustment is a knob, with soft rubber knurling and indents for feedback. It's not some awful feeling smooth afterthought that you see on certain Toyotas or Hondas. It's not a push button (beep beep beep beep) you find on old Pioneer stereos from the '90s. It's exactly what you want to adjust the volume. The AC is similar. Heated seats are a button with 3 LEDs indicating high/med/low. Everything just makes sense. And then VW got cheap and greedy. The mk8 is almost the complete opposite of what the mk7 was.
kmoser 3y ago
Even VW's physical buttons don't guarantee an intuitive UI. I tried to set the clock on a Jetta and had to look it up online. At first I went through the infotainment system's screen, which had settings for just about everything else. Why not the clock? Who knows. Anyway, there was a promising looking button on the dashboard to the right of the steering wheel (i.e. fairly near the clock) that did something with the clock, but no combination of pressing it actually let me actually set the clock. It turns out there is a second button on the dashboard, on the left side of the steering wheel, that is used to configure whether you are setting the hours or minutes, and must be used in conjunction with the button on the right side of the dash. I consider this a hard UI fail.
- ProllyInfamous 3y ago
  >I consider this a hard UI fail. Absolutely. I shall henceforth refer to this as the Kmoser UX Test: Can the clock be set intuitively?
jauntywundrkind 3y ago
It'd just be so nice if there was any starting place for user defined or malleable systems. All these "software" driven systems seem cast in stone, lack flexibility to let users do the right things for them, and so back back back the pendulum swings until eventually the hype train turns things back around again. Two points of reference come to mind. The well known-ish one, Steam and the Steam Deck. My gods, the flexibility steam has builtin for wiring up a controller to do whatever is godlike. I don't know how to speak even 1/4 justice to the powers here. It's the most flexible user facing software system on the planet, maybe short of Excel; there's so much capability on tap. I tried playing Jedi Academy recelty, an ancient game, and went & downloaded a bunch of shared profiles. On some of them there's like this gorgeous multimodal popover, press a button then swipe the joystick to pick a force power or weapon, which shows up in game as an overlay with actual graphic pictures someone baked in. The potential for man-machine symbiosis is parsecs afar of where most of the out-of-box(-is-all-you-get) unadjustable cloudware world has left us. The other data point that keeps resonating for me is an old consumer-oriented iot system, Webinos. There was a bunch of car interest, where exposing all the HVAC and lighting and even realtime radar proximity sensors. The whole system was a user-sovereign API system, where user's had control over where data went & could talk to their cars securely/remotely. The system was a general iot system, but it was neat to see car people leaning in, a decade ago. It never closed the loop though, and layered in programmability to the builtin infotainment system, which feels like what we need now. Its wild how we have all this software, but the interfaces are still all manufacturer provided. Most people don't, but on Android for example one can change their launcher which radically reshapes the whole experience. I think of that as a breeding ground, a permissive layer to sustain & keep staleness out with. Cars went all in on touchscreens, while caging users into very limited experiences. Ideally users would have hybrid flexibility, would be able to use some manufacturer presets that are touchscreen or physical centric (with both being available to some degree) and then to take the experience further. A static manufacturer defined system has to be simple & reliable first, and the modernization failed too many basic requirements (not remembering settings seems to be a big one in comments. Moved in to a new place recently with Lutron caseta everywhere & the dimmers have a little light showing brightness level... A "nice" affordances that an old old old dimmer switch had!). Not feeling at ends is what technology is failing to give us, and products keep suffering for our e-matter's severe lack of soft tweak ability; we keep taking the problem on in this sector or that & trying to find a balance, but the modern world lacks a software parallel of reconfigurability, is sort of pre-interchangeable-parts. The base of the pyramid to enable products constantly being unadaptable tech-nightmares is basically missing!
an_aparallel 3y ago
My honda accord euro 2013s UI incredible... each set of main controls for air temp, volume, etc have a characteristic....weather it be a single small knob, large knob, concave button, convex and so on - you can feel your way without looking at it - once memorised - easy to feel for again. Brilliantly thought out car imo.
ProllyInfamous 3y ago
This past summer, I budgeted $120 for an air fryer [if you haven't used one, do]. Ultimately, I walked out of WallyWorld with their $24.00 entry-level unit — because it has physical knob controls. Not a digital circuit in sight, and when I need tendies crisped [chef's kiss] PERFECTO. It even has a real bell which [dings].
stunt 3y ago
I love Tesla’s take on buttons. Not the latest one that they have on S and X and I think recent 3 design, but what they have in model Y and older model 3s. Real buttons for window control, very easy to use and multi purpose knobs on steering wheels, very functional steering stalks, combined with great software, with great user interface, and good hardware to support it. But for some reason German car makers that were inspired by it ended up with horrible haptic buttons everywhere.
adolph 3y ago
In this video the reviewer goes through the steps required to open a buttonless Cadillac glove box: https://youtu.be/dxWzV3Sln_E?t=950 https://youtu.be/dxWzV3Sln_E?t=950

378 points by sklargh 3y ago

Touch screen is good for setup and info display but should not be used for active control while driving. Hiding the wipers or lights or temperature controls deep in menus is a flippin' disaster. Hyundai has about the right balance from what I have seen.

silisili 3y ago
IMO it shouldn't be a touchscreen at all. By nature you have to look at it to interact. Just have a nontouch screen for display purposes, and physical buttons to interact with it as necessary.
- doubled112 3y ago
  I can't put my phone in a cup holder and change songs at a red light, they'll take my license. Yet the car comes with a device I also need to take my eyes off the road and poke around at.
  - Tagbert 3y ago
    Which you don’t need to poke at while you are driving.
    - kube-system 3y ago
      Unless there are safety critical controls on those screens, which was the root complaint in this thread.
    - zerd 3y ago
      You've never needed to change the temperature while driving? Or turn on/off heated seats? Or adjust fan speed? Or turn on recirculating air?
  - jqpabc123 3y ago
    Yes, it's kinda comical isn't it. It's illegal to use your cellphone while driving in many areas --- so they built a cellphone UI into the car --- which is every bit as distracting and dangerous to use while driving.
mikestew 3y ago
Hyundai has about the right balance from what I have seen. Owner of a '23 Ioniq 5 here. Hyundai has struck a balance, but not quite the right balance. There are physical buttons, but they don't control the climate or seat warmers. In fact, one of my few annoyances with this car is when I use the physical volume button, my finger often brushes up against the capacitive "climate" button area, hence flipping on the heat when I just wanted to turn the podcast down. Now, there are the usual physical controls like wiper and turn signals, but that's not because Hyundai are paragons of control design, but rather because they're not idiots. And the complaints above are not that big a deal, as the "buttons" are right at hand. But with just a minor tweak or two, they could have done much better. And, as other commenters point out, it could be much, much worse.
- coldpie 3y ago
  Ioniq 5 is at the top of my list for when we go car shopping, probably late next year. Coming from a pre-touchscreen-era 2011 Mazda, I'm pretty nervous about the UI disaster cars have turned into these days. I wish Mazda would build a good EV, but it sounds like it's not happening any time in the near term.
  - bdcravens 3y ago
    Also consider the EV6, since they're the same platform (very much the same, though have a few UX differences, as I described in another comment)
    - coldpie 3y ago
      Cheers, will do.
  - mikestew 3y ago
    Oh, it's not so bad that I would not consider buying the car (like we did with VW). Day-to-day it's not a huge deal. If the auto-climate is already set to what you like, then you just hit the clearly-labelled, but-still-capacitive, "climate" button and you're done. And the voice control actually...works; what will they think of next? :-) But it certainly could be better.

jdewerd 3y ago

About damn time.

FredPret 3y ago

I always buy gadgets with physical buttons when possible. - Microwave ovens should have a knob-button combo that I can work in 0.5 seconds without looking or reading the manual - Ovens and stoves should have knobs I can turn with wet or oven-mitted hands - Cars should have volume buttons I can twist or smack into silence without thinking about it for more than a moment - Same with seat heaters, wipers, and anything I might do while the car is moving

jpk 3y ago
> Ovens and stoves should have knobs I can turn with wet or oven-mitted hands Ooh, yeah this is a big one for me now. A few years ago I got a new range and the controls are all capacitive touch. Mitts are a minor inconvenience, but also sometimes cooking is messy and liquid gets spilled here or there. Now imagine how your phone works when you get some rain on the screen... yeah, it's not great. I've learned enough tricks to live with it since it's honestly the only thing I don't like about that range, but next time I'll probably shell out a little more for knobs if I have to.
- FredPret 3y ago
  There's a reason the most important controls on phones (which are all about interactive interfaces) are physical buttons!
- kube-system 3y ago
  I have a clothes dryer with capacitive touch buttons. When the ambient conditions are just right, static will build up when it is drying clothes, and it will change its own settings randomly.
  - maximus-decimus 3y ago
    Aren't dryers grounded?
    - kube-system 3y ago

nesky 3y ago

I have a 2021 Mazda and I can't say enough good things about it's infotainment interface. The dial and 5 buttons on the center console behind the shifter is wonderful, I can glance at the screen while using the dial and I know what each of the 5 buttons do across the system. I've been in a few vehicles from Honda, Toyota and Chevy and the Mazda is multiples better at interacting with the system while driving.

llamaInSouth 3y ago
> The dial and 5 buttons on the center console behind the shifter is wonderful One of my favorite feature on Mazdas... never seen anything like it before
- bobbytables1 3y ago
  I’m not sure, but what’s being described sounds a lot like BMWs iDrive which I love and has been around for a while(15+ years).
  - llamaInSouth 3y ago
    Basically, I can access it without looking while keeping my arm on the arm rest
  - pivo 3y ago
    That's funny because as I recall the BMW iDrive was widely derided when it came out. I have one on my old BMW and I like it, never understood the objections.
    - eesmith 3y ago
      Here's an NYT article at the time, from https://web.archive.org/web/20150527202158/https://www.nytimes.com/2002/12/01/magazine/the-way-we-live-now-12-01-02-problem-solver-driven-to-distraction.html https://web.archive.org/web/20150527202158/https://www.nytim... : > Car enthusiasts were not smitten with iDrive; many found that the system had the opposite of its intended effect, requiring more, not less, visual attention. Automobile Week wrote that iDrive ''turned the 'experience' of driving the car into a computerized affair.'' And even experts who sympathize with the impulse behind iDrive note its shortcomings. ''I spent an hour experimenting in a simulator, and I got lost in the menus,'' says Don Norman, the author of ''The Design of Everyday Things.'' BMW countered by including a cheat sheet that can be affixed to the steering wheel for befuddled parking valets. Eventually, some initially skeptical reviewers have conceded that once accustomed to it, they find the iDrive indispensable; however, that acclimation has taken as long as three months. Norman wrote more about it at https://jnd.org/design-as-communication/ https://jnd.org/design-as-communication/ . > By logic, the iDrive was a superior device. Alas, people function through stories, not logic. Moreover, people are spatial, we remember where things are in space, whereas the iDrive destroyed spatiality. And finally, the stories we remember and the conceptual models we prefer have to do with how a particular device functions: heating and cooling the automobile, changing the station of the radio, checking what distance remains for our trip. Each activity requires a separate story, separate control, and a separate location for operation. Alas, the iDrive collapsed everything into one location.

coolbreezetft22 3y ago

Good. I have an ID4 and really like but the touch panel for climate controls is definitely a nuisance, physical buttons are definitely preferable. Glad to see this trend is going in reverse.

balls187 3y ago
I have the climate control to resume, so I don't often need to adjust it. I also use the siri shortcut to start climate control a few minutes before I leave the house.

karaterobot 3y ago

I bought 3 VWs, then switched to a Mazda for my last car after they went full-touchscreen. And I told my dealer that was the reason when they called me. I assume they ran that up to the boardroom in Germany, and that's why this changed. You're welcome, everybody. /s > This is reassuring for the simple fact that actual buttons just work. The touch sliders and whatnot in the Mk8 Golf and ID.4 are finicky, only operating like they should some of the time. They also aren't backlit, making them difficult to find and use in the dark. I'd frame it differently. It's not that, under certain circumstances, buttons work better than touchscreens. It's that there are particular situations when touchscreens are superior to physical buttons (nav is one of them), and for every other use case, buttons provide a more intuitive, consistent, discoverable, pleasurable experience for users. Because I can do GPS nav on my phone anyway, if I have to choose one, I'd say it's reasonable to conclude that physical controls are superior in general as UI for cars. The other problem with touchscreen interfaces is that, paradoxically, they can result in worse design. You'd think that an all-software interface would give designers more options. What it seems to do—and many designers will recognize this antipattern from the real world—is make it so that you don't get as much time to think about the right design, and you don't have to make the difficult decisions that result in a simple, opinionated design. Instead, the UI ends up being an afterthought because it's just software, and every VP with a dumb idea gets to have it crammed into the design. That's why touchscreen controls for cars still suck, 10 years into them being ubiquitous, while a dashboard from the 1970s can be controlled by a child.

jansan 3y ago
> I bought 3 VWs, then switched to a Mazda for my last car after they went full-touchscreen. And I told my dealer that was the reason when they called me. I assume they ran that up to the boardroom in Germany, and that's why this changed. You're welcome, everybody. /s Thank you, sweetheart!!!
matsemann 3y ago
The VWs/Cupras I've driven recently have had these insane buttons on the steering wheel, that aren't physical but supposedly does some weird vibration/haptic feedback when pressed. Makes it absolutely impossible to control the cruise control etc. Just insane. Reason alone for me not considering those cars at all when buying.

ksec 3y ago

Just like everything else I remember at the time most of HN were singing songs and praise about the Tesla infotainment interface and everything touch screen. People who preferred buttons were the minorities. "You already have to look at buttons for playing songs or X why not make everything touch screen." Now the tide has finally turned. Sigh.

CrzyLngPwd 3y ago
Why sigh?
- CrzyLngPwd 3y ago
  Why downvote a simple question?
  - jansan 3y ago
    Comments without content and humor is a sure fire way on HN to get downvoted.
    - CrzyLngPwd 3y ago
      Oh the drama. I'll downvote them, as payback haha.
- ksec 3y ago
  I had a rant about a the whole thing, but I deleted it before posting but somehow left the sign there.
mqus 3y ago
I think in VWs case there was the additional circumstance that their touch screen was just abysmal.
bdcravens 3y ago
I haven't driven a Tesla, but perhaps the interface is more intuitive? I feel like on VW and others with terrible interfaces, it was more of an afterthought, kinda like a web app that spent $200k on the API and then had a budget of $10k for the front end that needed to go live in a couple of weeks.

Ajay-p 3y ago

That's good to hear. I test drove a Range Rover and it was bewildering. Buttons would change function based on which mode they were in. It became very confusing very quickly and I had to pull over and spend a few minutes to figure it out. Even then it was awful.

cpursley 3y ago
Were you really considering one? They're rated consistently at the bottom in terms of reliability and have for 30 years or more. Porsche and BMW make a much higher quality vehicle in that price range. (Don't get me wrong, I'd love an old Defender 90; those are cool)

jansan 3y ago

I had a Volkswagen Arteon Shooting Brake as a rental car on holiday this summer. Me and my family just loved the car, but the buttons on the steering wheel were really weird. I am not sure if you can get used to it, but I really prefer classic buttons on the steering wheel, so I get clear feedback when pressing them. Too bad the Arteon will be phased out and the ID7, which looks like a great car, will have the same buttons. At least the new Passat seems to get the haptic buttons again.

hawski 3y ago
Off-topic: Is this only my perception or many things lately that come in single digit tiers (with some mostly irrelevant prefixes)? It is not a bad trend really (number big -> thing pricey), but funny to see.
- jansan 3y ago
  Volkswagen just wanted to make everything new with their electric cars. Therefore they chose the "ID" prefix, which is probably supposed to sound futuristic to the average buyer. But Audi for example had something very similar going on for a long time with their A2, A3, ... A8 and Q3, Q4, ... Q8.

rambambram 3y ago

Even before I used adblockers I purposefully bought a speakerset with one big volume knob to turn down the volume whenever an ad or otherwise annoying sound 'hit' my computer. No more fiddling with mouse clicks in menus to regulate the volume. Also no buttons to gradually turn down the volume step-by-step, just swing the wheel. Best purchase ever for peace of mind.

bdcravens 3y ago
I'm spoiled by keyboards that have a single button for mute. That said, one of the best keyboards I've owned was a Das Keyboard Pro with a giant volume knob like you described.
- rambambram 3y ago
  Nice one! Integrated in the keyboard would be even better for me.

deleted 3y ago

[deleted]

bdcravens 3y ago

My wife has a 2023 ID.4. As the article says, it's a good EV ruined by the touch controls. It is without a doubt the worst UX I've experienced in any car. Prime example: a touch toggle with no real feedback to switch between the front and rear window controls, since there's only one button.

balls187 3y ago
(also a driver of a 2023 id4): That switch between rear and front windows is mindbogglingly terrible UX. Other bad UX: I also only have one user profile setup and I have to hit "okay" every time I start my car. The self parking feature works maybe 40% of the time. You cannot disable child locks independently, it's either on or off. The alert that my phone is charging everytime I put it into the wireless charging spot. Cannot disable assists without disabling acc.
- cco 3y ago
  > I also only have one user profile setup and I have to hit "okay" every time I start my car. I blame Netflix, fairly or not, for this UI pattern. The idea of "choosing a profile" on startup is a UX that I don't think was common before Netflix made it the de facto in streaming. Now every video streaming service, regardless of how many profile _actually_ exist (for me, only one), asks you to pick a profile on startup. Absolutely annoying.

acd 3y ago

Airplane computers already have touch knob interface figured out. Display in the middle physicall buttons and knobs to control the interface.

jmye 3y ago

Great that they're putting them back, but even then, the included pictures make it clear they have no idea why they're putting them back or what the actual issue was with removing them. Hiding them, essentially, behind the steering wheel on the driver's left hand side instead of putting them back in the center console is really, really dumb. Less dumb than the touchscreen, but still dumb.

boppo1 3y ago
It's so people get into accidents and they can say 'oh told you so'

tw04 3y ago

Thread from yesterday: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38678853 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38678853

dang 3y ago
That one only spent 21 minutes on HN's front page and the source looks a bit dodgier, so maybe we'll let the current thread run as well. Interested readers might want to look at both.

NotYourLawyer 3y ago

Tesla please read this article.

ojosilva 3y ago
UI is hard for any carmaker to get right. The target user range (from pops to teen to soccer mom to SV tycoon) is way, way wider than the typical user that gets a figma-designed UX on top of React. Being conservative pays off in this arena, but, duh, we do need innovation and evolution in cars too, specially . I tend to get confused when cars have too many buttons, console cluster areas and there are cars where, after years as a owner, I just couldn't find the alert button, the rear defogger or some of the other "quick-fire" buttons, such as the "resume" cruise position on the steering wheel right joystick on my wife's Kia. Yes, things buried deep in a menu can also be annoying. To me the best compromise is: give me a steering-wheel "mouse" so that I can at least hit a shortcut somewhere without lifting my hands off the steering wheel.

lnsru 3y ago

Audi e-tron 50 or A6 digital cockpit disasters should go into design books: https://www.leasefetcher.co.uk/guides/car-technology/audi-virtual-cockpit https://www.leasefetcher.co.uk/guides/car-technology/audi-vi... Screens on the left, on the right and in the middle. Good luck playing with that on autobahn speeds.

toddmorey 3y ago

Woohoo collective sanity prevails! Now let’s do Tesla!

jessriedel 3y ago

Does anyone have a reasonable explanation for why this is done? > Then there's the ID.4, which only has two window switches on the driver's door, with a separate button that shifts their controls between the front and rear windows. https://www.thedrive.com/news/vw-ceo-admits-frustrating-golf-id-4-interiors-did-a-lot-of-damage https://www.thedrive.com/news/vw-ceo-admits-frustrating-golf... Unreal. Note that explanations like "they want to make everything software" don't work, because it was still physical buttons. At best you are reducing the number of physical buttons by two, but then also increasing the number of haptic buttons by one. Here is a video by VW that tries to explain it. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yDj4sSyNl_Y https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yDj4sSyNl_Y Just absolute lunacy.

agloe_dreams 3y ago
Designers running rampant with no UX oversight combined with 'Hey it is cheaper'. Anything to look cool to the next buyer.
wmeredith 3y ago
In my career, I've found that a lot of poor decisions like this get made in a committee that's already been at each other's throats for 7 hours and just wants to go home for the day.
- ska 3y ago
  And option 3 is 11c/unit cheaper.
entrox 3y ago
> Does anyone have a reasonable explanation for why this is done? It‘s cheaper. That’s all there is to it. Automotive design is heavily influenced by bill—of-materials cost, there are committees upon committees deliberating and ultimately deciding on saving cents per unit.
deleted 3y ago
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3y ago

browningstreet 3y ago

..and the piano black stuff please. I recently watched this video: "NEW BYD Seal vs Tesla Model 3 vs VW ID.7" https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y-f9mLCxgrw https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y-f9mLCxgrw Shocked at how ugly the VW interface was, esp in their next flagship. I will say this: I used to have the first gen VW CC. Loved that car, especially the physical "Jump" (that's how it was labeled) button that took you to the first radio station preset. So I got used to ordering my music stations by preference, so I could move through the list by the steering wheel arrows but go back directly to #1 whenever I wanted. Can't believe how much I miss that feature.

FirmwareBurner 3y ago
>Shocked at how ugly the VW interface was, esp in their next flagship. And bear in mind that this is the end product after VW spent billions on a sister spin-off company, Cariad, that would just focus on creating the best possible in-car software separate from their archaic car business. And this is what they got. Now they're gonna lay off thousands. There's something with big German companies and consumer facing software that never manages to click no matter how much money they spend. If you have a broken design culture/process with terrible managers, it won't matter how much money you spend or how many people you lay off.

w-m 3y ago

I would expect something like a new VW car interface, that is put into millions of cars, to pass some kind of internal design review. How do these things (like touch controlled AC sliders without backlight) get introduced, which would take two minutes of usability testing to be thrown out? Can this just be explained by cost savings, or is there something else going on?

newsclues 3y ago
The entire industry shifted, from the suppliers to OEMs.

ChrisArchitect 3y ago

[dupe] More discussion yesterday: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38678853 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38678853

egberts1 3y ago

Eureka! Now i am going back to VW again

eknkc 3y ago

I have a hybrid volvo with 5 drive modes. In order to change the drive mode you touch a small settings icon on bottom right corner. Touch Drive on the navigation list and then touch the desired mode. Whoever thought this was a good idea is an imbecile.

tonymet 3y ago

I personally prefer tactile interfaces on everything — cars, home appliances, tools , etc. But producers are not to blame here. Consumers are buying these products based on appearance and not usability. The flashy-but-useless UI trend will continue until consumers purchasing decisions change. If VW produced a 90s style interior today, would anyone buy it? Yes it would be more usable and safer , but it wouldn’t sell.

FuriouslyAdrift 3y ago
The Corrado was amazing in its day! https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Volkswagen_Corrado https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Volkswagen_Corrado
deleted 3y ago
[deleted]
Neikius 3y ago
This is a good point. Some of us would want different products. Is there just not enough of us or is this a situation similar to the instant fashion where someone else just decides what is "best for the people"?
- tonymet 3y ago
  Some markets are big enough to support these niches . My Gaggia Espresso machine built today could easily be mistaken for a 1950s product. Cars suffer from a few issues. The biggest one is regulatory . It’s prohibitive for any manufacturer to break from the trend. A 1990s-style vehicle would be illegal today because of DOT & EPA mandates. And auto makers try to employ re-usable components that are DOT certified.

efields 3y ago

In the ID4’s steering wheel buttons are sub-par. In a d-pad layout, right hand, they decided an “up/down” was necessary so they made vol- and vol+ left and right. Well now you can’t have skip/back, because those _have_ to be left/right. Meanwhile everyone’s phone vol-/+ is vertically oriented, up/down, so I’d argue that’s a folk default. Here’s the thing: I don’t use the up/down buttons for everyday use. I’m guessing they work a menu. They are clearly an over-prioritized affordance. And I’m stuck with it until the lease is up. I’ve done 40k miles in a model 3. The cabin temps are automatic to the temp I like. I never change it. It’s easy to pick the last few things I listened to from the touch screens. I can use Siri for other things (Bluetooth, no CarPlay)… buttons are overrated.

agloe_dreams 3y ago

Everyone - This isn't about the touch screen. This is about the buttons in recent VWs that are touch based, including the steering wheel and window selector switch for the window buttons. All of these are capacitive and are horrible.

Neikius 3y ago
Yeah, capacitive buttons, my old nemesis. Worst of both worlds. Guess I need to read up why those were invented even.

indymike 3y ago

One of the things I really like about my Subaru is the over-abundance of buttons, and the really hands on wheel button controls. The touch screen is perfectly supplemental and that makes it much less irritating.

tahoeskibum 3y ago

I guess I'm in a minority, as I like the minimalist elegance of a Tesla touchscreen and voice controls.

crabmusket 3y ago
For me, "I press the button and it does what I wanted" is both minimalist and elegant. Form must follow function.
- primax 3y ago
  I'd disagree, because a button for everything means a button for every function. This very quickly becomes cluttered, which is the opposite of minimalist.
  - crabmusket 3y ago
    Everything can be done badly; a digital design can be just as cluttered as a physical one. And conversely, a physical design with few, well-chosen functions doesn't need to be cluttered. I also didn't say I wanted a button for every function. But this is getting off into the weeds. My aim was to say that "minimalism" can be applied in different ways. For example, minimalism in the number of features, or in the complexity of the overall system, or in the ease of operating it.
stonogo 3y ago
This is honestly the first time I've ever heard anyone describe Tesla's "glue a giant iPad to a dashboard" approach to interface design as being elegant. I'm guessing the voice controls are the elegant part? Because that screen is my least favorite part of my Tesla, and my Tesla-owning friends feel the same.

FuriouslyAdrift 3y ago

I would be willing to pay an extra $5k just to have the exact layout of the 2006 Honda CR-V. I could manage every setting of that vehicle without even looking. It was standardised across most Hondas, so I could do the same in any other vehicle of the same model era range. https://static0.topspeedimages.com/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/jpg/200605/2006-honda-cr-v-29.jpg?q=50&fit=contain&w=755&h=430&dpr=1.5 https://static0.topspeedimages.com/wordpress/wp-content/uplo...

twisteriffic 3y ago
05/06 CRV were the best vehicles Honda ever made. Absolutely reliable and super easy to work on. Crazy amount of rear legroom. A hatch that swings sideways instead of up. Roof rails that you can bolt a 2x4 to to haul stuff around. And they have a picnic table in the back!

1-6 3y ago

Buttons aren’t necessary if the UI doesn’t suck.

JohnFen 3y ago
I'd love to see even a single example of this being true. How can a touch screen UI be so good that it can be operated without looking at it?

raminf 3y ago

Have a 2023 ID.4. There are three things I do most frequently: - Connect my phone via CarPlay (as only user). - Adjust AC depending on outside temperature and passengers. - Plug car in at home to charge after midnight (cheaper rates). In all three cases, the car forgets previous settings, requires multiple taps (up to 5-6 at a time), or makes it hard to find the screen to make the adjustment. My last car ran fine for 20+ years. This is the third VW I've ever driven; the first two were a long time ago. I intentionally leased this one since I figured EV technology would evolve, so best to hold off before purchasing outright. Unless they figure out how to make those features be 0-touch (or even 1-touch) operations, this will be the last VW for me. The EV part works fine, but I grit my teeth every time I get in or out of the car.

magicalhippo 3y ago
My sister got an earlier ID.4, and after a weekend trip to our cabin I got to experience the horrible AC controls. I got a Renault Megane e-Tech this summer, and it does the things you mention right. Not only does it remember AC settings, CarPlay/Android Auto and such per profile (my SO uses Android Auto, I don't), but it has physical buttons for adjusting temperature, fan speed, max AC, rear window heater and air recycling. While they have physical buttons they can also be adjusted via the voice interface of course. Having physical buttons for those key operations is one of the reasons we got it. Not having it was a hard pass. Compared to our previous BMW i3, I also really enjoy having easy access to the regen settings via paddles on the steering wheel. I live in the suburbs, so drive a lot on both fast and slow roads, and actively switching between regen settings depending on speed limit and traffic makes it more enjoyable to drive.
- petre 3y ago
  We rented a cheap 2022 Clio this spring and I was really impressed with how ergonomic the controls were. The car actually did everything I wanted for me, even automatically closing the doors when I left or openng them when I was nearby.

leetharris 3y ago

I think the transition is jarring for many people and while ultimately I think physical buttons are often better, I am the type that will gladly accept a little degradation in favor of progress and minimalism. I also think there's an extremely vocal minority that feels like no-buttons is backwards progress. Note, this is not an excuse or justification for touchscreen-only interfaces, but my personal feelings towards the matter. I have two Teslas and I have never found the touchscreen to be a problem when the "automatic" setting is GOOD. For example, I almost never touch the AC. I set it to the temperature I like and it keeps me comfortable during the entire ride. However, when things like the automatic windshield wipers are bad (and they constantly fluctuate between disastrous and good enough between software updates), I get really frustrated because I have to tinker with the bullshit screen too much. Personally, I think the end game is minimalist physical buttons (some multipurpose) + software that is actually good enough to not interact with the touchscreen very often. Most companies that aren't Tesla really struggle on the latter portion.4 After having these 2 cars for a couple of years, I find most cars extremely cluttered and almost claustrophobic. I really like how clean and simple the Tesla interior is. I hope we don't overcorrect back into the 2010s and even 80s style of "put a button right in front for EVERYTHING." But I do think there's a ton of room for healthy middle ground.

tremon 3y ago
So your argument is basically, "touchscreens are OK as long as I don't have to actually use them"? And I don't get your argument about degradation in favour of progress -- progress towards what, exactly?
- leetharris 3y ago
  Yes. When I am charging, or not moving, I GREATLY prefer the touchscreen over hundreds of physical buttons scattered all over the car. The minimalism is appreciated. Less moving parts to break, less clutter, and everything is extremely centralized. When I am driving 85mph obviously I don't want to have to look over at a screen to adjust windshield wiper settings. One day, ideally most of this stuff is handled automatically or through a simple interface like voice. Stuff like window controls should always exist, but things like windshield wipers or speed should ideally be automated one day.

rsync 3y ago

Too bad Volvo needed to burn an entire (upcoming) model generation with their own UI/UX experimentation: https://cdn.motor1.com/images/mgl/Akg2QO/s1/2025-volvo-ex30-first-ride-review.webp https://cdn.motor1.com/images/mgl/Akg2QO/s1/2025-volvo-ex30-... All I wanted was an electric version of the V90 wagon. Instead, Volvo wants to sell us space-cars ... Tron-mobiles ... eInitiative iCars. Since a model generation is something like five years long, it's going to be a while.

ProllyInfamous 3y ago
Two summers ago, I went Volvo shopping. The dealer was absolutely disconnected from his product offerings, and ultimately I left frustrated. The "Inflation Reduction" Act revoked their rebate, which had me balk at Volvo's pricing. Thankfully, I did not purchase a Recharge Hybrid Volvo (they changed mid-year, as did their infotainment provider).

adolph 3y ago

There are also aftermarket physical buttons that can be added to cars. I thought I had seen an esp32 CAN project but can't find it now. Here is a commercial example: https://enhauto.com/ https://enhauto.com/

rompledorph 3y ago

The TV in the center console needs an off button

mortenjorck 3y ago

Related, it's good to see that while VW was unable to resist the cargo cult of touchscreen maximalism and must now course-correct, they presumably (based on the images in the article) never adopted the dreadful ergonomics pioneered by the Prius and popularized by Tesla of eschewing a driver-side instrument cluster for a single, central screen.

wand3r 3y ago

I am definitely in the minority here. I want a touch screen and I want control. I did (and do) love the VW tactical knobs in my VW Golf, but the Mazda knob is horrific for me. I want dumb TVs that I can control in my house. I want dumb screens that mirror my phones UX in my car. I want dumb pipes delivering my internet. I want control. That said, I do agree outside of "infotainment" I want knobs and buttons for the actual car processes like A/C, windows, etc.

JohnFen 3y ago
> I do agree outside of "infotainment" I want knobs and buttons for the actual car processes like A/C, windows, etc. I'd be fine with that, since I wouldn't be using the "infotainment" stuff to begin with. But everything that I need to adjust while driving needs to be a physical control that I don't have to look at when I use it.

jimjimjim 3y ago

At last, touch screens are terrible for most things while you are driving. Misclicks and finger slide make for a frustrating experience in my opinion. Even just having some physical buttons under or alongside the screen would be great. A large physical ok/yes/go button and a cancel/no/escape button that I can hit without concentrating would solve 3/4 of the interaction problems.

vletal 3y ago

In my first car (1989 Ford Escort, 3-door) I could adjust both temperature and radio volume without loosing eye contact with the road. I felt under control and safe. Recently I've rented a Tesla Model 3 and man, how far did we come since then. If just the voice control did not keep telling me "Sorry, I can not do that yet". My dad (65yo) just bought a new car with a mediocre central display. It makes me super uneasy to see him drive. The man used to slap me over my wrist for looking at my phone while driving. Now it takes him 1+ seconds JUST TO adjust his eye sight to be able to while switching from the road to the display and back! Then he has to navigate the touch menus... I am really worried he is going to hurt himself or someone in 10 years time he will likely own this car.

trimal 3y ago

I don't know why car manufacturer need to re-invent things in interior. Many people are familiar with shifting knob but now companies are introducing switches (Tesla takes it up notch in their latest cyber truck, they are putting drive switches below rear view mirror) I would prefer for critical activities like wiper, heater where I can rely on muscle memory.

JohnFen 3y ago

Here's hoping that VW is a trendsetter on this.

deckard1 3y ago

Here's a good video from Jason Cammisa about the new (at the time) mk8: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XGbPHp6QfkQ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XGbPHp6QfkQ I had a mk7 and it is the best interior + UX I've seen in a car. Everything is as simple and ergonomic as possible. The volume adjustment is a knob, with soft rubber knurling and indents for feedback. It's not some awful feeling smooth afterthought that you see on certain Toyotas or Hondas. It's not a push button (beep beep beep beep) you find on old Pioneer stereos from the '90s. It's exactly what you want to adjust the volume. The AC is similar. Heated seats are a button with 3 LEDs indicating high/med/low. Everything just makes sense. And then VW got cheap and greedy. The mk8 is almost the complete opposite of what the mk7 was.

kmoser 3y ago

Even VW's physical buttons don't guarantee an intuitive UI. I tried to set the clock on a Jetta and had to look it up online. At first I went through the infotainment system's screen, which had settings for just about everything else. Why not the clock? Who knows. Anyway, there was a promising looking button on the dashboard to the right of the steering wheel (i.e. fairly near the clock) that did something with the clock, but no combination of pressing it actually let me actually set the clock. It turns out there is a second button on the dashboard, on the left side of the steering wheel, that is used to configure whether you are setting the hours or minutes, and must be used in conjunction with the button on the right side of the dash. I consider this a hard UI fail.

ProllyInfamous 3y ago
>I consider this a hard UI fail. Absolutely. I shall henceforth refer to this as the Kmoser UX Test: Can the clock be set intuitively?

jauntywundrkind 3y ago

It'd just be so nice if there was any starting place for user defined or malleable systems. All these "software" driven systems seem cast in stone, lack flexibility to let users do the right things for them, and so back back back the pendulum swings until eventually the hype train turns things back around again. Two points of reference come to mind. The well known-ish one, Steam and the Steam Deck. My gods, the flexibility steam has builtin for wiring up a controller to do whatever is godlike. I don't know how to speak even 1/4 justice to the powers here. It's the most flexible user facing software system on the planet, maybe short of Excel; there's so much capability on tap. I tried playing Jedi Academy recelty, an ancient game, and went & downloaded a bunch of shared profiles. On some of them there's like this gorgeous multimodal popover, press a button then swipe the joystick to pick a force power or weapon, which shows up in game as an overlay with actual graphic pictures someone baked in. The potential for man-machine symbiosis is parsecs afar of where most of the out-of-box(-is-all-you-get) unadjustable cloudware world has left us. The other data point that keeps resonating for me is an old consumer-oriented iot system, Webinos. There was a bunch of car interest, where exposing all the HVAC and lighting and even realtime radar proximity sensors. The whole system was a user-sovereign API system, where user's had control over where data went & could talk to their cars securely/remotely. The system was a general iot system, but it was neat to see car people leaning in, a decade ago. It never closed the loop though, and layered in programmability to the builtin infotainment system, which feels like what we need now. Its wild how we have all this software, but the interfaces are still all manufacturer provided. Most people don't, but on Android for example one can change their launcher which radically reshapes the whole experience. I think of that as a breeding ground, a permissive layer to sustain & keep staleness out with. Cars went all in on touchscreens, while caging users into very limited experiences. Ideally users would have hybrid flexibility, would be able to use some manufacturer presets that are touchscreen or physical centric (with both being available to some degree) and then to take the experience further. A static manufacturer defined system has to be simple & reliable first, and the modernization failed too many basic requirements (not remembering settings seems to be a big one in comments. Moved in to a new place recently with Lutron caseta everywhere & the dimmers have a little light showing brightness level... A "nice" affordances that an old old old dimmer switch had!). Not feeling at ends is what technology is failing to give us, and products keep suffering for our e-matter's severe lack of soft tweak ability; we keep taking the problem on in this sector or that & trying to find a balance, but the modern world lacks a software parallel of reconfigurability, is sort of pre-interchangeable-parts. The base of the pyramid to enable products constantly being unadaptable tech-nightmares is basically missing!

an_aparallel 3y ago

My honda accord euro 2013s UI incredible... each set of main controls for air temp, volume, etc have a characteristic....weather it be a single small knob, large knob, concave button, convex and so on - you can feel your way without looking at it - once memorised - easy to feel for again. Brilliantly thought out car imo.

ProllyInfamous 3y ago

This past summer, I budgeted $120 for an air fryer [if you haven't used one, do]. Ultimately, I walked out of WallyWorld with their $24.00 entry-level unit — because it has physical knob controls. Not a digital circuit in sight, and when I need tendies crisped [chef's kiss] PERFECTO. It even has a real bell which [dings].

stunt 3y ago

I love Tesla’s take on buttons. Not the latest one that they have on S and X and I think recent 3 design, but what they have in model Y and older model 3s. Real buttons for window control, very easy to use and multi purpose knobs on steering wheels, very functional steering stalks, combined with great software, with great user interface, and good hardware to support it. But for some reason German car makers that were inspired by it ended up with horrible haptic buttons everywhere.

adolph 3y ago

In this video the reviewer goes through the steps required to open a buttonless Cadillac glove box: https://youtu.be/dxWzV3Sln_E?t=950 https://youtu.be/dxWzV3Sln_E?t=950