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Apple announces that RCS support is coming to iPhone next year

793 points by dm 3y ago

ClassyJacket 3y ago
Using a compatible standard like this should be a requirement to be allowed to sell your phones anywhere or use any radio spectrum or be compatible with any carrier.
MalcolmWillis 3y ago
[dead]
alexb_ 3y ago
> This is not Apple opening up iMessage to other platforms. Instead, it’s the company adopting RCS separately from iMessage. Very important.
- dmonitor 3y ago
  I don't mind Apple adopting RCS the same way that SMS is implemented. I like that iMessage can add features at whatever pace Apple wants. RCS will at least fix the annoying group message problems that Android/iOS have.
  - ryandvm 3y ago
    Agreed. I don't mind them having their messaging platform. I don't mind it being technically superior to RCS. I DO have an issue with them intentionally doing a shit job of integrating with a telecommunications standard and then slapping a green bubble on it to get their oblivious users to ostracize people's kids.
    - eropple 3y ago
      Apple doesn't put a green bubble on SMS "to ostracize people's kids". Kids are ostracized just for having a default skin in Fortnite--because kids can be little shitheads. Apple differentiates because what you can do with SMS is different from what you can do with iMessage and that's a clear way to demonstrate it (and also to indicate if there's something weird going on when it changes from iMessage to SMS). RCS is a suboptimal standard, and while it's good that Apple will support it to try to de-jank mixed-platform group messaging, I'd expect it also to be a different color because RCS in turn introduces its own jank that iMessage doesn't have. So people who want to make up an Apple to get mad at will still have their chance, I guess.
      - Obscurity4340 3y ago
        > what you can do is different Can you talk a bit more about how iMessage is fundamentally diferent than SMS on the functionality level? Is it like "Signal" different or is it like "different" different? Edit: bonus points if you can offer why iMessage is able to be the skeleton key into your iPhone, as often it and WebKit seem to be behind most of the serious 0-days...
        deleted 3y ago
        [deleted]
        scarface_74 3y ago
        I can edit an iMessage after sending it, I can use threads and it doesn’t require a cell carrier - just an Internet connection. It’s also e2e encrypted and I can optionally let people know I have do not disturb on. It integrates with sharing my location and I can tell when someone is actually typing
        marcellus23 3y ago
        > Can you talk a bit more about how iMessage is fundamentally diferent than SMS on the functionality level It's different in the same way every messaging app is different from SMS: * Group chats, with custom group names and icons * High quality images/videos * Reactions * Stickers * Rich link previews * Threads * etc. etc. > why iMessage is able to be the skeleton key into your iPhone I don't think a lot (any?) of the vulnerabilities are unique to iMessage. It's more about the fact that SMS/iMessage is a means for someone to send you data that's then parsed/decoded immediately by the system.
        Obscurity4340 3y ago
        Isnt that the reason sandboxes exist? I just feel like these thins happen way less often with Signal and [shudder] Whatsapp...
        dmonitor 3y ago
    - throw0101a 3y ago
      > I DO have an issue with them intentionally doing a shit job of integrating with a telecommunications standard and then slapping a green bubble on it to get their oblivious users to ostracize people's kids. The green bubble is there because in the past, when telcos charged money for individual SMS messages, green meant money. I.e., greenbacks, US dollars. * https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greenback https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greenback * https://english.stackexchange.com/questions/263943/meaning-of-green-and-greenback-in-american-english https://english.stackexchange.com/questions/263943/meaning-o... Blue meant no charge for the message, since it went over the data plan and through Apple's servers. The tribal/clan split of iPhone/no-iPhone came later.
- wolpoli 3y ago
  Speaking of opening up to other platforms due to Digital Markets Act: maybe we'll finally get FaceTime as an open industry standard at some point?
  - tomjen3 3y ago
    That would be an interesting chance: buy an iPhone and get it with the hardware, or download and app and pay Apple a subscription. I wonder how many Android users would be willing to pay the subscription?
  - greedo 3y ago
    I thought Apple intended to do that but found out the a lot of the tech was patent-encumbered.
    - MBCook 3y ago
      The story is Steve Jobs just announced that without consulting any engineers first. It was a total surprise to them. They actually seemed to be working on it, but Apple was quickly hit with a patent suit from some company over FaceTime. I believe they had to re-architect how it worked to get around the patent. They haven’t done anything about it since then. I wonder if they simply can’t because of patents. Either way by now I think they’ve decided it’s a strategic advantage and they wouldn’t do it by choice.
  - SSLy 3y ago
    AIUI FaceTime is already made from 3GPP and IETF standards, just apple holds the encryption keys and the auth servers.
baz00 3y ago
Hopefully I can turn it off. I do not know anyone who uses RCS who didn't end up on WhatsApp or Telegram pretty quickly afterwards.
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
- swozey 3y ago
  Why would you turn it off? What if you hire a contractor for some work and they need to send you pictures/video from an Android? Or a realtor, mechanic, craigslist seller, or just someone you don't have/want a personal relationship with. You're not adding these people to WhatsApp/Telegram.. I have probably hundreds more phone contacts than people I have on whatsapp.
  - baz00 3y ago
    It's just so bloody unreliable. UK here. Literally everyone is on WhatsApp. I haven't found anyone who isn't!
  - NOWHERE_ 3y ago
    Funnily it’s vice versa for me. I don’t give out my phone number to random people, but instead give them my telegram handle of a throwaway account.
  - mnd999 3y ago
    All the carriers in the UK use Googles service. Perhaps you don’t want to send all your messages via the worlds biggest advertising company.
    - microtonal 3y ago
      Google's service uses end to end encryption. Of course, Apple can choose not to implement it (seems that they'll only implement it if it's standardized).
      - 3y ago
wiredfool 3y ago
And eventually, we'll go through cvs, svn, and then _finally_ get git on the iPhone?
- mattl 3y ago
  yeah but first you're going to have to deal with them putting ,v after all the names in your address book.
- nailer 3y ago
  I know we're not supposed to use HN for throwaway jokes, but I came here for this comment and I love you.
summerlight 3y ago
The next significant step would be opening up iMessage and I'm pretty sure that Apple already has implemented most of it. Otherwise, they cannot realistically follow the DMA timeline in the worst case where EU designate iMessage as a gatekeeper.
- progbits 3y ago
  Yeah this sounds like they consider that outcome is at least possible, if not outright expecting it.
- turquoisevar 3y ago
  That's never going to happen for two main reasons. The first one is that, despite the EU’s blatant attempt to carve the rules around the likes of Apple while simultaneously trying to shield EU companies, they've overestimated the amount of iMessage users, excluding iMessage from the DMA rules. The other one, which is more important in this discussion, is that the EU kept the definitions of services rather broad to the degree that Apple’s adoption of RCS will automatically fulfill the interoperability requirement.
  - summerlight 3y ago
    > That's never going to happen for two main reasons. I wouldn't say "never". DMA is inherently political at its heart and designed to target US big techs precisely. Apple is not immune and EU gave the regulation board enough flexibility to target all of US big techs. Apple knows this and they decided to support RCS for this exact reason to gain public supports. > The other one, which is more important in this discussion, is that the EU kept the definitions of services rather broad to the degree that Apple’s adoption of RCS will automatically fulfill the interoperability requirement. EU already has defined iMessage as a separate core platform service from iOS and Apple hasn't argued against it because it would give them a chance to exclude iMessage from the scope of the regulation. Hence, OS level support for RCS won't cover iMessage if it's also designated as a gatekeeper.
  - stale2002 3y ago
    Apple wouldn't need to be blatantly targeted if they hadn't been engaging in significant anti consumer practices for years.
moritonal 3y ago
Note that this is "Rich Communication Services", not "Reaction Control System" from KSP which would have been a much more dramatic update.
- LeifCarrotson 3y ago
  I think that's a feature of the next XKCD Phone [1]. [1]: https://www.explainxkcd.com/wiki/index.php/Category:xkcd_Phones https://www.explainxkcd.com/wiki/index.php/Category:xkcd_Pho...
- smoldesu 3y ago
  I can imagine a pretty great commercial where Craig Federighi throws an iPhone like a football, and a tracking shot zooms in to show it swiveling around to correct it's orientation mid-flight.
- Am4TIfIsER0ppos 3y ago
  I think "Reaction Control System" is from more than just a simulator.
- JCharante 3y ago
  "Realtime... Control.. System?" was my 2nd guess.
- tomjen3 3y ago
  It would be a pretty awesome feature of the next phone if it has RCS fall control.
exabrial 3y ago
Can we please get SD Card expandable storage back next?
- mattl 3y ago
  iPhone never had this, so it wouldn't be "back".
  - hot_gril 3y ago
    Yeah, the thing to bring back would be headphone jack.
    - mattl 3y ago
      Do any mainstream phones ship with a headphone jack now?
      - hot_gril 3y ago
        Not any one I've heard of. Which will be an issue when my iPhone 6S eventually dies.
- Sohcahtoa82 3y ago
  The market has spoken. People don't care about that feature. Or at least, they don't care enough about it to vote with their wallet.
  - myself248 3y ago
    Supposing I did want to vote with my wallet, where would I have spent my money to make that vote heard? They seemed to disappear from everywhere at once, at least during the time I kept my last phone.
    - JCharante 3y ago
      The latest 7nm phone from Huawei lets you choose between using the second sim card tray for a sim card or removable storage up to 256GB (albeit their proprietary storage medium). From my experience, plenty of Chinese phones offer what geeks in the US want (expandable storage and removable batteries). https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Huawei_Mate_60 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Huawei_Mate_60 Removable storage NM card 256GB SIM Card slot 1: NANO-SIM Card slot 2: Choose one of the two NANO-SIM or NM memory card"
stephenr 3y ago
I'm curious if this means Apple will run their own RCS service for their customers or will rely on a telco provided one. I tried to find info for example about RCS in Australia, and saw a piece about Telstra launching RCS in 2017... but now it's apparently turned off and customers are expected to use the Google RCS service?
mattl 3y ago
I wonder what color the bubble will be?
- CharlesW 3y ago
  Not blue, because that signals capabilities which are specific to iMessages (E2E encryption, message effects, stickers, etc.).
- jwells89 3y ago
  Maybe not green, but it should probably remain different so there’s an unmistakable visual indicator of which conversations are encrypted (assuming Apple implements carrier-flavor RCS, which to my knowledge is not encrypted unlike Google-flavor).
  - mdasen 3y ago
    I think it'll remain green. Apple might feel pressure to implement RCS to ward off regulators, but keeping the chats green will likely still serve Apple's purpose. Even if RCS is 100% as good as iMessage, a decade of green bubbles has cemented the perception in people's minds. Even if people don't know why a green bubble is worse (and even if they aren't worse), it will still be their perception. Apple has no reason to change the color from green and let users know that they shouldn't care as much as they used to.
    - mattl 3y ago
      I don't know many people with Android who don't use WhatsApp or Signal. Keeping SMS green would be good for purely transactional type SMS messages, and using another color for RCS would be good.
  - stephenr 3y ago
    It says they're going to support Universal Profile, which is the GSMA defined feature set, and it's not immediately obvious to me if that includes E2EE capacity (I highly doubt it's a requirement) - I recall seeing something saying that "standard" (non-Google) RCS group chat doesn't support it.
edent 3y ago
I was working on RCS systems back in 2012. It was the future back them - incredible low latency for messaging and gaming, rich messaging, and a decent SDK. How did carriers fuck it up so badly that, a decade later, it's barely a blip on the messaging landscape? The were so desperate to stop OTT (over the top) services that they... locked everything down in the hope that customers wouldn't churn. It backfired spectacularly.
- bastard_op 3y ago
  It wasn't the carriers, it was Apple mostly winning the race in creating their walled garden, and everyone else being disinterested in an alternative in the phone race wars. It's now some badge of shame Apple users discriminate against the blue vs green windows if a friend or relative doesn't have an i-thing, and Apple loves it all the way to the bank.
  - rattlesnakedave 3y ago
    Apple only has dominant marketshare in the US. Everywhere else in the world people use Whatsapp. Why didn't they all hop on the RCS train? Because it sucks to implement and is a black box to use. Google was stuck with SMS because of their inability to implement a cohesive messaging app, despite owning and distributing an operating system. So what did they do? Pitched sob stories and got the europeans to threaten to regulate. Shitty move. They should have just built something good.
    - smoldesu 3y ago
      > They should have just built something good. This, but with Apple. Whether or not Google whined about it, iMessage was never going to last. It was never a matter of if iMessage would be forced to reconcile itself with the interoperable protocol it replaced, but when. So... Apple should have been ready. They should have been drafting absurd standards centered around their own servers, and taunting Google into adopting it. They could have even charged a license fee for the software. But instead they played high and mighty, and now they have to contend with the law. Frankly, I'm glad Google summoned Shai Hulud.
deleted 3y ago
[deleted]
simbolit 3y ago
this is meant to hold back regulators, just for a couple more years, so, for a couple more years it will be green bubbles android, blue bubbles iOS. The teenage market share is 87% currently. just a couple more years is all they need.
- partiallypro 3y ago
  There isn't enough discussion about the impending Apple phone monopoly in the US. It's inevitable at this point.
ceejayoz 3y ago
Hopefully this'll mean better Google Fi support for the iPhone. It's a little janky, but $20/line is hard to pass up.
- JCharante 3y ago
  I use Google Fi for my iPhone. What am I missing out on? (asides from using more than 1 carrier's network simultanously)
  - ceejayoz 3y ago
    I can't add cellular service for my Apple Watch, at all. Enabling MMS requires a somewhat convoluted set of changes to the phone's cellular settings, and despite having done them correctly I periodically get a "we couldn't send you all your texts, fix your settings" warning SMS from Google.
    - JCharante 3y ago
      Oh right. I have a cellular apple watch too but I've just forgotten about that.
photoGrant 3y ago
Looks like those Android iMessage guys had some information ahead of time.
- alphabettsy 3y ago
  How? Seems like they would’ve have gone through the effort if they knew.
nickvanw 3y ago
I'm pretty happy about this, I don't think Apple should be forced to open up iMessage, but not adopting the RCS standard always seemed a bit underhanded to me. Even if it sucks, better cross-platform messaging is a win for everyone.
simse 3y ago
This is great to hear. Apple should be selling phones because their phones are better, or iMessage is, not because of social pressure, which is crazy.
- voidwtf 3y ago
  What if the social pressure, is in part, a result of the better experience one gets with iMessage? Photos, videos, group messaging are all a significantly better experience with iMessage in my experience. This is not to say that other apps don't offer a similar experience, you can achieve much of the same functionality on Telegram or WhatsApp. It's just that it's built into the phone. Google might have achieved similar success with their own messaging platform had they'd not constantly thrown it under the bus and created a new one every month. Allo, Duo, Meet, Google+, Google Chat etc....
  - nerdix 3y ago
    Mobile messaging should be either be interoperable or cross platform. And any messaging platform that is tied to one mobile operating system is user hostile.
    - Affric 3y ago
      I received my first piece of spam on iMessage last week (used it since 2011) and it was deleted instantly by Apple. I presume because they identified and removed the account's iMessage privileges. Any messaging app that permits spam is user hostile. Spam takes up more of my time than I would ever want to give on Whatsapp/Messenger/Text. iMessage has prevented me from contacting precisely zero people. If I were to walk away from my iPhone I would lose nothing after exporting some messages. The barrier to entry to other potential users of $100s is well worth it for me.
Almondsetat 3y ago
Imagine being an exec at Nothing and seeing your acquisition turn into dust Edit: it was not an acquisition but a partnership
- bertman 3y ago
  Context: https://nothing.community/d/2968-introducing-nothing-chats https://nothing.community/d/2968-introducing-nothing-chats
- SuperNinKenDo 3y ago
  Wouldn't worry at all. It's a cool feature if it works. The value in that blue bubble is less about the features of iMessage and more about social capital, not that I personally care.
  - Almondsetat 3y ago
    It is about the features though. Apple users snob Android users because group messaging doesn’t work well, media features are not supported, etc. RCS offers such a rich environment that Apple could finally truly integrate most stuff transparently with iMessage. Send a video to the group chat? Everyone gets it at full quality. Make a poll? Everyone can vote.
    - freedomben 3y ago
      You're both right. The features matter, but so does the social stigma of bubble color. Nothing will still have a feature and an edge by offering a "blue bubble" on Android, but this announcement would reduce my excitement a little bit if I were them.
      - Almondsetat 3y ago
        The features Apple could not integrate with RCS will be very few, like watching an AppleTV show together or create a FaceTime call without having visible links in the chat. The social stigma stems from iMessage giving Apple users advanced and integrated messaging for free since the very beginning, which “spoiled” people into not wanting to deal with pure SMS chats.
no_wizard 3y ago
This is something I never thought I'd see. I hope the GSM association moves fast to make robust E2EE a standard required for proper implementation for carriers. That would go a long way in making a huge improvement over SMS/MMS. This is a win for RCS, ultimately. Maybe this will kick carriers into high gear to up their messaging standard support game and have standard interop. I don't think this will lead to a decline in iMessage usage, nor do I think it will be catalyst enough to get people to move to Android, because there are still things RCS won't be able to support[0] but its a big step forward for a more pleasant experience between iOS and Android. [0]: Memojis, reactions (tapbacks I think their called) and I'm curious about threaded messages. Also, at this time the actual RCS standard does not specificy that messages must be end to end encrypted. iMessage on the other hand has robust E2EE encryption (and you can get even more robust encryption by enabling Advanced Data Protection)
- hedora 3y ago
  The only reason they'd move to E2EE would be if Apple forced them. Looking at / selling message contents is a large potential revenue source for all the other major players.
  - no_wizard 3y ago
    Lets hope they will. Apple is a bit of a forcing function in the cellular industry, especially in the US.
  - greentea23 3y ago
    I am fairly certain that it's illegal to sell the content of SMS messages in the United States at least. The metadata like who is messaging who and timestamps and best guess locations maybe is sold though. But the contents can be obtained by law enforcement. However, I think the contents are purged after some expiration time.
    - xattt 3y ago
      > … fairly certain that it's illegal to sell the content of SMS messages in the United States at least There will be some ridiculous loophole like leasing will be allowed of all vowels on Mondays, and all consonants on Tuesdays.
throw0101a 3y ago
> Breaking: Apple will support RCS - the green bubble shame set to end Note that the green bubble could be kept for other reasons: RCS is a major improvement over SMS/MMS, but there could still be functionality that isn't on par with a completely in-house system like 'iMessage'. The green/blue distinction may still be useful for setting certain expectations on how things work.
- TechRemarker 3y ago
  Yeah definetly would not expect it to be blue as 9 to 5 noted how Apple mentioned it won't be as secure as iMessage and iMessage will be separate. So presumably people texting will still want to know if they see blue they get full privacy where is if they see green or a new color it means yes they get lots of new features like iMessage, but not as secure as iMessage. But the green bubble (or whatever new color) will be less shameful, if users in general can group chat and chat easily without worrying about not being able to do most all the standard features they can with other iPhone users. Time will tell.
  - sonicanatidae 3y ago
    "Privacy" is not the reason a lot of people comment on green text bubbles. It's status. That's it. If they truly cared about sec, they would use something like Signal.
    - averageRoyalty 3y ago
      Both Signal and iMessage are E2EE, SMS is not. Why do you feel Signal is better security wise?
      - sneak 3y ago
        iMessage, in practice, is not e2ee as devices escrow their “Messages in iCloud” cross-device sync keys to Apple in the non-e2ee iCloud Backup. Even if you turn on e2ee for iCloud (“Advanced Data Protection”), your endpoint keys will stop being escrowed in a way readable to Apple in your backup, but the endpoint keys for everyone you message with will still be escrowed because they have not enabled Advanced Data Protection (because it’s off by default), so Apple will still be able to read all of your iMessage traffic. 99.9%+ of iMessages pass through Apple servers encrypted with keys that Apple has copies of (thanks to the insecure non-e2ee default nature of iCloud Backup). If the middle transit service has the private keys, it’s not e2ee.
hedora 3y ago
I hope they continue the green bubble shaming. Apparently RCS (at least as implemented in practice) still doesn't support end to end encryption. In particular, they should color messages green if they can be forged by intermediaries / collected for bulk surveillance / used for ad targeting / sold to third parties by your carrier / etc.
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
apienx 3y ago
Google ran a clever “Time for SMS to exit the chat” campaign some time ago. Might have helped precipitate this decision. https://youtu.be/N_B0riy__rw?si=C-gDkNbmb3MFyWao https://youtu.be/N_B0riy__rw?si=C-gDkNbmb3MFyWao Telcos live in the Stone Age. A little disruption is well overdue.
- microtonal 3y ago
  Unlikely. This is most likely due to regulatory pressure of the EU. The Digital Services Act and Digital Markets Act both hit Apple pretty hard. Though the real losers here are potentially WhatsApp, Telegram and other third-party services (assuming that Apple will implement E2E encryption). Since iPhone is not as dominant in other countries as the US, WhatsApp and some other messaging services have become dominant outside the US. They are not really necessary anymore once there is a proper standard across platforms.
  - apienx 3y ago
    Right. They started investigating iMessage a couple of months back. https://www.theverge.com/2023/9/6/23861030/imessage-bing-european-union-commission-digital-markets-act-dma https://www.theverge.com/2023/9/6/23861030/imessage-bing-eur...
- lxgr 3y ago
  Telcos should be utilities. They supply the pipes that deliver services and applications. RCS is unfortunately a step backwards from that idea. And regarding Google's motivations for that campaign: They have acquired a company offering RCS services to telcos and marketers... https://jibe.google.com/ https://jibe.google.com/
- rootusrootus 3y ago
  > Telcos live in the Stone Age. A little disruption is well overdue. I thought RCS was still a Telco-based service? Don't you have to have a telephone number to use it, at least? I keep hoping we go away from POTS, instead of continuing to invent reasons to be stuck with it.
system16 3y ago
> This will work alongside iMessage, which will continue to be the best and most secure messaging experience for Apple users," said an Apple spokesperson. I could be wrong but I don’t see anything here to suggest non-iMessages will no longer have the “green bubble” like the author assumes.
- rconti 3y ago
  agreed, in fact I suspect it'll remain a green bubble for "insecure" but at least more features will be supported.
- collegeburner 3y ago
  it will remain green, which means the signaling effect will also remain. the funny thing is everyone claims it's down to quality but guessing it won't matter, plus no 8ball/facetime will still push people towards iphones. especially w young ppl, where i think like 90% have iphones. if i had a nickel for every time a gal mentioned green bubbles give her the ick, i wouldn't be rich but could probably buy a solid steak dinner off it.
  - thedaly 3y ago
    > green bubbles give her the ick I mean, I guess I would be grateful to have such an earlier indicator that someone is not worth pursuing. Truly, who cares.
    - filoleg 3y ago
      It’s not that they would reject you if they already had some sort of a connection formed with you or that they consider having “green bubbles”to be an absolute dealbreaker. But if you have 5 similarly good on paper dating candidates, you are in the very initial stage of the process with them, and you need to narrow down the list, I don’t think it is that unreasonable to do so based on “the ease of texting.” You gotta narrow down somehow, and if doing so based on “green bubbles” eliminates 1-2 max out of 5 in the very initial stage, it is kind of a not that terrible of a metric. If it was eliminating half or more, it would be a bit more questionable. Of course, eliminating someone for “green bubbles” after you had already developed some interest in is way too much and is indeed a trait that would make one not worth pursuing.
signal11 3y ago
What’s the story around e2e encryption on RCS these days? In the past there were a few countries that didn’t allow it, no idea if that has changed. Also, will iMessage support for RCS include e2ee?
- faet 3y ago
  Apple will be pushing for RCS/Carriers to adopt e2e, but it'll probably just flag green/notify users that messages are not encrypted.
  - lxgr 3y ago
    Anything that needs the participation of every carrier on the planet is doomed from the get-go.
  - threeseed 3y ago
    As someone who has worked for two carriers Apple, Google etc have little clout. Governments and their intelligence organisations are what matters. And countries like UK will be pushing as hard as possible to make E2EE optional.
- enragedcacti 3y ago
  The current status iirc is that Google built its own e2e solutions in Android Messages, first for one-on-one conversations and as of August 2023 for group chats as well. They released technical papers but I don't think the implementations are part of the official spec. I think this section is basically Apple saying that they are going to push for that standardization: > Finally, Apple says it will work with the GSMA members on ways to further improve the RCS protocol. This particularly includes improving the security and encryption of RCS messages. I doubt anything has changed since 2020 in terms of China, Cuba, Iran or Russia but I couldn't find any news one way or the other
  - microtonal 3y ago
    The good news is that Google's E2E solution is the Signal protocol: https://www.gstatic.com/messages/papers/messages_e2ee.pdf?sjid=15104526344564008424-EU https://www.gstatic.com/messages/papers/messages_e2ee.pdf?sj...
throw0101a 3y ago
Is there E2EE in the actual RCS specification? Can there be, given that telcos are usually subject to lawful intercept laws? AIUI, what Google/Android does is have their own extension, with the Content-Type of the message being "application/vnd.google.rcs.encrypted": * https://www.gstatic.com/messages/papers/messages_e2ee.pdf https://www.gstatic.com/messages/papers/messages_e2ee.pdf This is kind of like, with (E)SMTP/IMAP, having your own capability of "X-GOOG-ENCRYPT" if the standards-based "STARTTLS" was not around. So while RCS gives many other improvement over SMS/MMS, encryption is not one of them. (Personally I have an iPhone, but don't conect 'iMessage', and generally stick with SMS/MMS.)
- Andrex 3y ago
  The MLS protocol proposed by Google provides a cross platform path to E2EE. https://thehackernews.com/2023/07/google-messages-getting-cross-platform.html?m=1 https://thehackernews.com/2023/07/google-messages-getting-cr...
- a2dam 3y ago
  There isn't E2EE in the RCS spec, but there's in-transit TLS encryption
- jvolkman 3y ago
  STARTTLS is client-to-server (or at least node-to-node). RCS node-to-node is already always encrypted. E2EE is like both sending and receiving parties agreeing to use PGP. The servers aren't involved with the details; they just move the opaque bytes.
deleted 3y ago
[deleted]
jmull 3y ago
> the green bubble shame set to end I'm betting the non-Apple bubbles will remain green... and remain a bit stigmatized. It was never about the resolution of pictures and even technical limitations around group chat was just part of it. It's a social thing and the technical protocol is incidental. Dr. Seuss probably explained it best in The Sneetches.
- hotnfresh 3y ago
  > It was never about the resolution of pictures and even technical limitations around group chat was just part of it. It can be about both. It’s really nice to know when the images you sent are gonna be potato-quality and you need to find some other channel to send them, or that message reliability and capabilities in general are being limited to SMS (or RCS!) levels. I don’t give a shit about the social aspects, it’s valuable as a UI affordance.
- sonicanatidae 3y ago
  I love when people comment on the color of a text message. It makes it real easy to know who to block, because they worry about entirely the wrong things.
  - Invictus0 3y ago
    There's no one to block, you just won't be included when the groupchat is setup. Big problem for teens.
    - ryandvm 3y ago
      I dunno. Sounds like being left out of those groups is a net positive.
      - rootusrootus 3y ago
        Yeah it kinda makes me want to get my kids Android phones.
    - 3y ago
crazygringo 3y ago
What a surprise! I'm quite sure RCS bubbles will be green though, and that's still going to be enough of a difference when it comes to teen groups and even adult dating. The EU may mandate interoperability, but I don't see them mandating bubble color...
- rattlesnakedave 3y ago
  > but I don't see them mandating bubble color I personally see no limit to what arbitrary nonsense regulation the EU is willing to push.
  - bloppe 3y ago
    The EU is interested in fair competition. Apple has managed to provide a terrible cross-platform messaging experience to their own customers for years while successfully convincing everyone that the problem is due to every other phone besides theirs. I agree it's almost comical, but it certainly affects competition in a negative way.
    - rattlesnakedave 3y ago
      I don't buy this. Customers needed no convincing from Apple. Even where iOS isn't dominant they saw their dropped and expensive SMS/RCS messages and picked up whatsapp.
      - bloppe 3y ago
        I'm mostly just talking about the noxious white-on-green color they chose for cross-platform chat bubbles. It's a great example of hostile architecture. RCS fixes the cost / reliability problems of SMS, so that annoying color choice will be the only thing they have left to make imessage users feel superior.
        sbuk 3y ago
        Historically, SMS messages have had green bubbles since the iPhone was introduced in 2007. When Apple introduced iMessage in 2011, the showed iMessages in blue, and maintained the green for SMS messages. They are not “cross-platform” messages, Messages only does SMS and iMessage. If you did some reading, instead of getting upset over the longstanding colour of a chat message, you’d know this and not be so angry. Or, like th rest of the world, you would already be using an alternative.
whoopdedo 3y ago
Is there a sunset timeline for SMS? No service lasts forever and if Apple knows carriers will want to turn it off sometime they'd have to get on board with the RCS sooner rather than too late.
- freedomben 3y ago
  Apple is big enough that they could make the carriers keep SMS. If a carrier tried to remove it and break "compatibility" with the iPhone, Apple would block that carrier from having iPhones altogether, which would decimate that carriers business. So through a causative chain, Apple could force carriers to keep SMS.
  - threeseed 3y ago
    a) Apple doesn't decide whether carriers keep SMS. Governments do. b) Apple won't stop users from using a particular carrier because of commercial considerations. It would be a clear breach of anti-competition laws. c) Many carriers don't have relationships with Apple to sell the iPhone. And in many places internationally the iPhone is not even that popular. What matters is whether you can buy a SIM and install it into your phone.
- lxgr 3y ago
  Probably never. At the very least, RCS itself needs SMS for account provisioning on a new device. I also don't see every business relying on SMS for B2C messaging (and in particular for SMS-OTP) switching to RCS anytime soon.
- averageRoyalty 3y ago
  Who would be in charge of sunsetting such a thing?
  - Symbiote 3y ago
    The GSM Association. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GSMA https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GSMA
- 3y ago
ChrisArchitect 3y ago
Oddly related from yesterday: Nothing Phone says it will hack into iMessage, bring blue bubbles to Android https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38271775 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38271775
commoner 3y ago
Excellent. The next step is for Google to release a free and open source way for Android developers to build apps that send RCS messages. Currently, the only messaging app on Android that fully supports RCS is Messages by Google, which is closed source and requires Google Play Services to activate RCS features. Also, end-to-end encryption is not part of the RCS specification, but is a proprietary extension to RCS that Google has made exclusive to Messages by Google.[1] This feature should be made open and added to the actual RCS specification so that Apple and other vendors can make use of it. (Notes: There is a proprietary RCS API which Google only allows Samsung apps to use to communicate with Messages by Google.[2] Verizon has an app called Verizon Messages or Message+ that uses RCS to some extent, but this is an incomplete implementation that only works on Samsung devices on the Verizon network with no cross-carrier compatibility.[3]) [1] https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2021/06/google-enables-end-to-end-encryption-for-androids-default-sms-rcs-app/ https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2021/06/google-enables-end-t... [2] https://www.xda-developers.com/google-messages-rcs-api-third-party-apps/ https://www.xda-developers.com/google-messages-rcs-api-third... [3] https://www.verizon.com/support/knowledge-base-222792/ https://www.verizon.com/support/knowledge-base-222792/
- jabart 3y ago
  Don't use the Verizon Messages app. The privacy policy was terrible three years ago.
- hbn 3y ago
  This is why I don't buy Google's bad faith shaming of Apple for not adopting RCS. The current version of it that people are using on Android isn't even a "standard" by any normal usage of the term, it's just another Google messaging service. No one can make their own app, and there's barely any carrier adoption, so Google is basically running the whole network. Does this mean that now if you send a message to someone from an iPhone that doesn't go through iMessage, it will instead go through Google's servers? Sure the service will hopefully be better than SMS but at the cost of giving Google the keys to pretending they're a "standard."
  - lxgr 3y ago
spiralpolitik 3y ago
The lede is quite cleverly buried here. Key sentence is "We will be adding support for RCS Universal Profile, the standard as currently published by the GSM Association" So no end to end encryption and the bubbles will most still likely be green. Even with the mutterings about improving security etc it's unlikely that the GSM Association will ever sign off on any encryption scheme that isn't weak or backdoored.
- danaris 3y ago
  To be clear, based on what I've read: "no end-to-end encryption" simply means that Apple is not going to either a) develop their own, proprietary E2EE system for RCS, or b) pay Google for theirs. And good grief, get over the bubble color thing. Of course RCS isn't going to have blue bubbles; those specifically indicate an iMessage message. Maybe they'll be green, or maybe they'll be purple, orange, or red, to differentiate them from SMS. That's all the different colors are for: a useful indication of what messaging system that user is currently using. If Apple didn't color the bubbles differently, you'd see people moaning and complaining that there's no way to tell who you can and can't make a group chat with, or whether you can send them stickers and reactions.
  - nu11ptr 3y ago
    > And good grief, get over the bubble color thing I agree it is stupid, but there most definitely is a "status thing" going on with the whole green vs. blue as well.
    - cubefox 3y ago
      This will probably go away over time as everyone supports most the same features.
    - danaris 3y ago
      Personally, I have no experience with it—but I don't doubt that it exists for some people. What I object to is people insisting that the "status thing" some people have going on with it is Apple's responsibility to fix by removing useful indicators of who's using what messaging services, or that Apple is deliberately and maliciously making people not using iMessage somehow look worse. (On the other hand, I think there's a perfectly legitimate argument that Apple could and should open iMessage, and is choosing not to do so for relatively selfish reasons. I don't have a strong opinion on that one either way.)
daft_pink 3y ago
I really hope Apple allows us to disable many of RCS's features like read receipts and previews. I really don't want spammy users to start seeing read receipts, etc.
- curt15 3y ago
  You can disable read receipts in RCS just like you can with iMessage: https://www.makeuseof.com/how-to-disable-read-receipts-rcs-android-samsung/ https://www.makeuseof.com/how-to-disable-read-receipts-rcs-a...
- kiwijamo 3y ago
  Previews are an app feature, not in the RCS protocol itself. I see message previews for SMS/MMS messages on Apple/Android devices despite the SMS/MMS protocol having no concept of previews. Most likely true for RCS as well.
- rootusrootus 3y ago
  I'm worried about the spam. I hope they provide the ability to turn RCS off altogether if that's going to be a problem.
  - daft_pink 3y ago
    I don't think they can turn it off altogether, because it's essentially replacing sms, but I hope they allow us to disable a ton of the features or put it into a separate app.
marwis 3y ago
I wonder when Google will add proper RCS to their own Google Fi? Currently one has to disable Fi cloud sync losing a lot of features.
- hot_gril 3y ago
  So what was the deal with Android users complaining about iPhones not supporting RCS all this time, when it's not so universal among carriers to begin with? Not to mention how many people just use WhatsApp instead.
  - dagmx 3y ago
    Most people aren’t technically savvy enough to understand the nuance, especially when team sports takes over
crop_rotation 3y ago
I have only used Android phones and I strongly dislike RCS. RCS in theory is a standard but in practice it is == "Google Messages" the app. I don't know of a single telco that supports it (hosting their own infra of it), nor does any other SMS app (maybe 1 or 2 being exception that proves the rule). RCS(Google Messages) is just another messaging app like Whatsapp/Signal just that it pretends being a standard. AFAIK AOSP has no RCS APIs like it has for SMS. Not to mention the amount of SPAM one gets on RCS is comparable only to traditional SMS, and blocking has no effect unlike Whatsapp. It exists mainly because Google got tired of making messaging apps that weren't dominating the world (Hangouts/Allo) and thought that forcing a standard might be the only option available to them. E2E is optional and there is no switch that says only do E2E. There might be some solution needed to let iMessage interoperate with Android, but pretending RCS is a standard just like SMS that Apple was not supporting is wishful thinking.
adrr 3y ago
Please let users be able to disable RCS support. One nice thing about iMessage is that lacks spam. It is the only platform where i don't get spammed by bots.
- eiiot 3y ago
  I still get plenty of iMessage spam. From this morning: "Your USPS package could not be delivered. please check this link for more information: https:// https://...."
bilal4hmed 3y ago
Interestingly enough the person who wrote the white paper for the signal protocol implementation in Googles RCS, Emad Omara, now works for Apple https://www.gstatic.com/messages/papers/messages_e2ee.pdf https://www.gstatic.com/messages/papers/messages_e2ee.pdf
mcculley 3y ago
Should we expect that delivery status notification will work and be surfaced in the UI? I end up encouraging those who are on SMS to go to WhatsApp just because I can never be sure that the message was delivered. Working across many countries and providers, SMS is still very unreliable. There is no way in iOS to know if a green bubble got the message or not.
bilal4hmed 3y ago
Interestingly enough the person who wrote the white paper for the signal protocol implementation in Googles RCS, Emad Omara, now works for Apple https://www.gstatic.com/messages/papers/messages_e2ee.pdf https://www.gstatic.com/messages/papers/messages_e2ee.pdf
viktorcode 3y ago
I'm willing to bet the RCS bubble will still be green to indicate loss of p2p encryption.
- sircastor 3y ago
  The RCS bubble will at best be a color other than blue. The whole "blue bubble" class stratification is a competitive advantage for Apple, even if it's not truly earned. RCS provides a lot of the features that have made iMessage a preferable experience. And over time the collective consciousness may drift towards inclusiveness or indifference towards whatever bubble color RCS turns out to be, but I feel confident that unless it's mandated by some government body, Apple will keep blue bubbles to exclusively indicated iMessage.
- albert180 3y ago
  Why? There is E2E available with RCS
  - viktorcode 3y ago
    From what I read here it’s not a part of RCS standard. Another point is Apple uses their own p2p encryption for Messages, which will not be compatible with others.
Racing0461 3y ago
Yay, more third world pressure to bring ios down to android's level. What's next? My iphone coming preinstalled with whatsapp with 5 norton antivirus refund rooms already prejoined?
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
- PrimeMcFly 3y ago
  It's not "third world pressure", what the heck? Besides, I think you mean UP to Android's level. It's pressure to adhere to standards. Maybe you can't see it, but it's a good thing.
  - Shekelphile 3y ago
    > Besides, I think you mean UP to Android's level. Uh no, considering RCS is seriously flawed in design and implementation and doesn't encrypt messages end-to-end or even in flight. > It's pressure to adhere to standards. Maybe you can't see it, but it's a good thing. Calling RCS a standard is loaded. It was all but abandoned for years until google started forcing it on users and tacking proprietary extensions on top of it.
suddenexample 3y ago
Anyone have an idea what features the "RCS Universal Profile, the standard as currently published by the GSM Association" actually entails for users in terms of feature support? I know E2E encryption isn't a part of it, but was having trouble finding information about whether the Universal Profile includes other features like replies, read receipts, typing indicators, reactions, voice messages, etc. As an aside, this is huge but the media is really milking the clickbait when reporting "the end of green bubble shame" - even if Apple were to support all of the above features in their RCS implementation, I'm sure they'll keep the bubbles green. They've always been adept at designing for user psychology.
nashashmi 3y ago
Will Google drop their request for iMessage to be opened? Will that request become obsolete?
ralferoo 3y ago
As an Android user, it'd be nice if replying "No" to "Do you want RCS?" meant "Never ask me again" and wasn't just interpreted as "ask me again in next week and every week thereafter".
- solardev 3y ago
  Pssst... you sure you don't want RCS? All your cool blue bubble friends are using it now!
  - atonse 3y ago
    What? Are you saying this in jest? Then I'm missing the humor because this is completely false...
    - solardev 3y ago
      Yes :/ Like Android might soon use ios compatibility as a reason to further annoy you about changing protocols
- cesarb 3y ago
  > and wasn't just interpreted as "ask me again in next week and every week thereafter". It gets even worse; last week, on a relative's phone, after weeks of clicking "not now" it just force-enabled RCS, and displayed something like a "we automatically enabled RCS for you, here's what you should do if you want to disable it again" (completely confusing said non-technical relative). Needless to say, I quickly went into the settings and disabled it again; I just hope that it having been enabled for a few minutes doesn't mean it will no longer be able to receive messages from RCS users (like the rumors I heard many years ago of people who enabled iMessage and later changed back to Android no longer receiving any SMS from iMessage users).
- dcgudeman 3y ago
  why don't you want RCS?
  - 3y ago
northisup 3y ago
What is the over/under on RCS messages still being green?
solardev 3y ago
Someone please roll poor Steve back over.
viraptor 3y ago
I wonder what's the play here. They seem to make noise about RCS recently and give it attention, even though it seems they'll be forced by the EU to open up the iMessage system soon. Apple is not known for Google's "let's have 5 different communication apps at the same time", so... what's happening here?
- SllX 3y ago
  Probably the angle is to find some way to tell the EU to get stuffed as far as opening iMessage up goes. Apple only has to comply with the law. The issue is that the EC is on a high right now trying to see how far they can enforce control over US tech companies, so they might just go back and double down with more legislation if Apple finds a way to comply with the law without complying with the outcome the EC actually wanted.
- vineyardmike 3y ago
  There’s probably a few things at play. First, not every iPhone user can be iMessage-only and SMS is a shitty experience. In most non-US countries, they’re not winning the iMessage shame battle, they’re driving people to WhatsApp. They’d probably rather people use the built in messaging app, which will incentivize you to use iMessage. Secondly, getting more involved gives them opportunities to embrace/extinguish rcs (they said they won’t extend it). If they can use their market to force encryption on everyone, for example, that makes them look like the good guys against android makers. I could also see them trying to genuinely push UX improvements (eg stickers) on RCS and exiting iMessage from European Markets entirely. Finally, If the EU forces open iMessage, it’ll probably force open other messaging services, which gives RCS an opportunity to grow. See point 1 about them losing already in Europe. Or gives Apple a horse in the race even if they simply withdraw iMessage instead of opening it up.
  - albert180 3y ago
    RCS is already End to End decrypted by default on Pixel Phones
    - 3y ago
sva_ 3y ago
I doubt they'll give the messages the same background color though.
hospitalJail 3y ago
So now Apple users can finally receive video? Yay! I can send gym memes to my iphone friend! Oh wait they still cant open .webm without a half dozen steps. Oh well. Lols for us Androids only. Maybe iphones can open webms by 2028.
ars 3y ago
It would be nice if Google would support RCS first! Specifically in Google Voice which for some perplexing reason does not support it.
jedberg 3y ago
It's funny that everyone says "green bubble shame". Green bubble never meant "Android". It just meant SMS. I get green bubbles with iPhones sometimes when my data isn't working but SMS is. The whole point was to tell you that you may be charged for the message because some carries charge per SMS.
ephimetheus 3y ago
Is RCS a thing in Europe? I don’t think I’ve ever seen this mentioned anywhere. Does the carrier sell you an RCS package? Does it apply to messages to other countries? If that’s the case, I don’t see how it could compete with any internet message service that exists today in any capacity.
- hocuspocus 3y ago
  > Is RCS a thing in Europe? I don’t think I’ve ever seen this mentioned anywhere. Yes. Most Android users with either the Google or Samsung Messages app are already using RCS without noticing when they message each other. > Does the carrier sell you an RCS package? No, it's yet another OTT service, even if your messaging app is provisioned by your carrier to use its own RCS infrastructure (which is Google Jibe in all cases).
omnibrain 3y ago
From a german perspective that looks strange. 3 of at the time 4 carriers tried to adopt RCS and push it into the market a few years ago. They called it "joyn" but nobody ever used it. Everybody is using WhatsApp, except for some privacy conscious folks.
mikhael28 3y ago
Sweet! Now Google can stop complaining.
fyrn_ 3y ago
Probably related to https://www.engadget.com/nothing-phone-2-is-getting-imessage-support-this-friday--with-some-catches-194655776.html https://www.engadget.com/nothing-phone-2-is-getting-imessage... Or at least they may have moved the announcement forward
- MBCook 3y ago
  I doubt it. Also I don’t know how they’re doing that, but I’m more than willing to bet Apple will make sure it doesn’t work very long at all.
  - fyrn_ 3y ago
    Google has been trying thusfar unsuccessfully to get legislative forces involved. Really doubt Apple would decide to add any fuel to that fire by going after a small company trying to be compatible with their products. Would look terrible in court and they know it.
    - MBCook 3y ago
      I think it depends on how they do it. If it’s some sort of utility that runs on your Mac, that exists and would likely be ok. If they “broke in” somehow Apple will fix it and cut them off again.
meindnoch 3y ago
Thanks, I'm sticking to iMessage.
edandersen 3y ago
I wonder if Apple will let you disable iMessage and use just RCS instead?
- asadm 3y ago
  You can disable iMessage already and just use SMS/MMS... So should be possible.
  - hot_gril 3y ago
    You can also disable MMS.
nu11ptr 3y ago
Now if only they would open iMessage or at least release Windows/Linux/Web/Android clients so I can give up BlueBubbles. One can dream...
shmerl 3y ago
lol, Apple is so "innovative". It only takes them to be last to implement something like that. And USB-C too.
paxys 3y ago
Despite the usual "I want Apple to be a walled garden" sentiment that is prevalent on HN, I'm glad that the EU, DoJ and all the various corporate lawsuits are finally forcing Apple to open up their ecosystem, even if it is still far from where it should be. The smartphone is now the primary personal computer for most of the planet, and deserves to be treated as such.
- cubefox 3y ago
  iOS though is still very much a walled garden when it comes to installing apps.
- aalimov_ 3y ago
  I would assume that if you buy an iPhone you are (at least nowadays) aware that you are not going to be side loading applications or getting a device with third party bloatware installed that you can’t remove without a level of technical skill. How is it that they can be forced to open up their ecosystem if nobody is forced to purchase their devices, and when there are so many alternatives available. Especially when it seems (to me) that the only real beneficiaries from that move would be advertisers or companies like epic, spotify, google. > even if it is still far from where it should be. Where do you reckon it should be? Do you think they should let developers do/access whatever they want, or do you mean something else? Do you personally use an android or ios device (or maybe some niche os)?
  - ThatPlayer 3y ago
    Users are allowed to criticize devices they use. Do you think your phone is perfect and nothing can be improved? I think being able to install other app stores is an improvement on my device. "If you don't like it, leave" doesn't actually address the criticism. It's an informal fallacy: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ergo_decedo https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ergo_decedo . "If Apple don't like the EU's laws, they can just leave, but they don't so therefore they must be okay with the laws". You see how the "therefore" isn't true? That's why it being actual free market competition where consumers have a choice is the real test. If 100% of people on iOS want to stick exclusively with the Apple App Store, then it being forced open won't matter because all other stores will fail when no user installs them. On the other hand, if users are willing to use those other stores, maybe iOS users don't actually care about using exclusively Apple's App Store. Then the only one who benefits from blocking that is Apple to charge their extra fees. Look at their reasoning for removing Fortnite from the store: because Epic added an additional payment processor that wasn't Apple. It's not like they removed Apple payment as an option either. So users had the benefit of more choices!
bilsbie 3y ago
Would this allow texting without a phone? My kid doesn’t want a phone but wants to text his friends. Are there any options or will there be after this?
- onlyhumans 3y ago
  So a phone without it being a phone?
bilsbie 3y ago
It would be cool if They could add features to group chats like adding or removing participants.
aldousd666 3y ago
I don't think Google would have even cared about RCS if Apple would just make the bubbles the same color. Kids these days.
dboreham 3y ago
Bit late. They should at least support svn.
alams 3y ago
Did Nothing Phones chat app announcement influence Apple's surprise announcement?
qwertox 3y ago
PSA: While Google's Messages app previously always asked if you want to enable RCS (which I always declined), their latest October update enabled it without asking. It also enabled read messages notification to the sender as well as realtime typing notification to the peer.
alberth 3y ago
Thumbs up (and other reaction responses)? Does this mean giving an RCS message a "thumbs up" (or heart, or "haha") will now be supported from iOS and vice versa?
throwaway128128 3y ago
Hooray for regulation.
classified 3y ago
And there I was thinking that Apple would finally introduce a Revision Control System.
willhackett 3y ago
I love that this was but moments after Nothing was announcing iMessage support.
physicsguy 3y ago
It's almost too late, at least here in Europe, WhatsApp is pretty ubiquitous, probably because the split between Android and iPhone is much more even. Even my elderly relatives use WhatsApp, it's that popular. My local village has a chat group on it.
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
dark-star 3y ago
I wonder why they didn't at least go with SCCS, maybe even CVS?
car 3y ago
So does this mean we can run our own RCS servers, just like email? Probably a pain to set up, but should be possible. Since it's based on IMS which in turn is based on SIP, Open Source SIP servers could be the used, e.g. https://www.opensips.org/Documentation/Tutorials-RCS-Managing-Capabilities https://www.opensips.org/Documentation/Tutorials-RCS-Managin.... Also, will they allow using URI's instead of phone numbers for contacts?
issafram 3y ago
Now give us the FaceTime app...
avipars 3y ago
Still will have a green bubble though
hahamaster 3y ago
Time for another color, blue for iMessages, green for SMS, light brown for RCS.
swagempire 3y ago
Im not sure this is much of a surprise-- as shocking as it may seem to Americans -- iMessages is not widely used outside of North America. So Apple is just trying to bridge the technology gap here. iMessages is pretty dated.
lencastre 3y ago
Can’t they fix the 0-day no-open message exploits first?

793 points by dm 3y ago

Using a compatible standard like this should be a requirement to be allowed to sell your phones anywhere or use any radio spectrum or be compatible with any carrier.

MalcolmWillis 3y ago

[dead]

alexb_ 3y ago

> This is not Apple opening up iMessage to other platforms. Instead, it’s the company adopting RCS separately from iMessage. Very important.

dmonitor 3y ago
I don't mind Apple adopting RCS the same way that SMS is implemented. I like that iMessage can add features at whatever pace Apple wants. RCS will at least fix the annoying group message problems that Android/iOS have.
- ryandvm 3y ago
  Agreed. I don't mind them having their messaging platform. I don't mind it being technically superior to RCS. I DO have an issue with them intentionally doing a shit job of integrating with a telecommunications standard and then slapping a green bubble on it to get their oblivious users to ostracize people's kids.
  - eropple 3y ago
    Apple doesn't put a green bubble on SMS "to ostracize people's kids". Kids are ostracized just for having a default skin in Fortnite--because kids can be little shitheads. Apple differentiates because what you can do with SMS is different from what you can do with iMessage and that's a clear way to demonstrate it (and also to indicate if there's something weird going on when it changes from iMessage to SMS). RCS is a suboptimal standard, and while it's good that Apple will support it to try to de-jank mixed-platform group messaging, I'd expect it also to be a different color because RCS in turn introduces its own jank that iMessage doesn't have. So people who want to make up an Apple to get mad at will still have their chance, I guess.
    - Obscurity4340 3y ago
      > what you can do is different Can you talk a bit more about how iMessage is fundamentally diferent than SMS on the functionality level? Is it like "Signal" different or is it like "different" different? Edit: bonus points if you can offer why iMessage is able to be the skeleton key into your iPhone, as often it and WebKit seem to be behind most of the serious 0-days...
      - deleted 3y ago
        [deleted]
      - scarface_74 3y ago
        I can edit an iMessage after sending it, I can use threads and it doesn’t require a cell carrier - just an Internet connection. It’s also e2e encrypted and I can optionally let people know I have do not disturb on. It integrates with sharing my location and I can tell when someone is actually typing
      - marcellus23 3y ago
        > Can you talk a bit more about how iMessage is fundamentally diferent than SMS on the functionality level It's different in the same way every messaging app is different from SMS: * Group chats, with custom group names and icons * High quality images/videos * Reactions * Stickers * Rich link previews * Threads * etc. etc. > why iMessage is able to be the skeleton key into your iPhone I don't think a lot (any?) of the vulnerabilities are unique to iMessage. It's more about the fact that SMS/iMessage is a means for someone to send you data that's then parsed/decoded immediately by the system.
        Obscurity4340 3y ago
        Isnt that the reason sandboxes exist? I just feel like these thins happen way less often with Signal and [shudder] Whatsapp...
        dmonitor 3y ago
  - throw0101a 3y ago
    > I DO have an issue with them intentionally doing a shit job of integrating with a telecommunications standard and then slapping a green bubble on it to get their oblivious users to ostracize people's kids. The green bubble is there because in the past, when telcos charged money for individual SMS messages, green meant money. I.e., greenbacks, US dollars. * https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greenback https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greenback * https://english.stackexchange.com/questions/263943/meaning-of-green-and-greenback-in-american-english https://english.stackexchange.com/questions/263943/meaning-o... Blue meant no charge for the message, since it went over the data plan and through Apple's servers. The tribal/clan split of iPhone/no-iPhone came later.
wolpoli 3y ago
Speaking of opening up to other platforms due to Digital Markets Act: maybe we'll finally get FaceTime as an open industry standard at some point?
- tomjen3 3y ago
  That would be an interesting chance: buy an iPhone and get it with the hardware, or download and app and pay Apple a subscription. I wonder how many Android users would be willing to pay the subscription?
- greedo 3y ago
  I thought Apple intended to do that but found out the a lot of the tech was patent-encumbered.
  - MBCook 3y ago
    The story is Steve Jobs just announced that without consulting any engineers first. It was a total surprise to them. They actually seemed to be working on it, but Apple was quickly hit with a patent suit from some company over FaceTime. I believe they had to re-architect how it worked to get around the patent. They haven’t done anything about it since then. I wonder if they simply can’t because of patents. Either way by now I think they’ve decided it’s a strategic advantage and they wouldn’t do it by choice.
- SSLy 3y ago
  AIUI FaceTime is already made from 3GPP and IETF standards, just apple holds the encryption keys and the auth servers.

baz00 3y ago

Hopefully I can turn it off. I do not know anyone who uses RCS who didn't end up on WhatsApp or Telegram pretty quickly afterwards.

deleted 3y ago
[deleted]
swozey 3y ago
Why would you turn it off? What if you hire a contractor for some work and they need to send you pictures/video from an Android? Or a realtor, mechanic, craigslist seller, or just someone you don't have/want a personal relationship with. You're not adding these people to WhatsApp/Telegram.. I have probably hundreds more phone contacts than people I have on whatsapp.
- baz00 3y ago
  It's just so bloody unreliable. UK here. Literally everyone is on WhatsApp. I haven't found anyone who isn't!
- NOWHERE_ 3y ago
  Funnily it’s vice versa for me. I don’t give out my phone number to random people, but instead give them my telegram handle of a throwaway account.
- mnd999 3y ago
  All the carriers in the UK use Googles service. Perhaps you don’t want to send all your messages via the worlds biggest advertising company.
  - microtonal 3y ago
    Google's service uses end to end encryption. Of course, Apple can choose not to implement it (seems that they'll only implement it if it's standardized).
    - 3y ago

wiredfool 3y ago

And eventually, we'll go through cvs, svn, and then _finally_ get git on the iPhone?

mattl 3y ago
yeah but first you're going to have to deal with them putting ,v after all the names in your address book.
nailer 3y ago
I know we're not supposed to use HN for throwaway jokes, but I came here for this comment and I love you.

summerlight 3y ago

The next significant step would be opening up iMessage and I'm pretty sure that Apple already has implemented most of it. Otherwise, they cannot realistically follow the DMA timeline in the worst case where EU designate iMessage as a gatekeeper.

progbits 3y ago
Yeah this sounds like they consider that outcome is at least possible, if not outright expecting it.
turquoisevar 3y ago
That's never going to happen for two main reasons. The first one is that, despite the EU’s blatant attempt to carve the rules around the likes of Apple while simultaneously trying to shield EU companies, they've overestimated the amount of iMessage users, excluding iMessage from the DMA rules. The other one, which is more important in this discussion, is that the EU kept the definitions of services rather broad to the degree that Apple’s adoption of RCS will automatically fulfill the interoperability requirement.
- summerlight 3y ago
  > That's never going to happen for two main reasons. I wouldn't say "never". DMA is inherently political at its heart and designed to target US big techs precisely. Apple is not immune and EU gave the regulation board enough flexibility to target all of US big techs. Apple knows this and they decided to support RCS for this exact reason to gain public supports. > The other one, which is more important in this discussion, is that the EU kept the definitions of services rather broad to the degree that Apple’s adoption of RCS will automatically fulfill the interoperability requirement. EU already has defined iMessage as a separate core platform service from iOS and Apple hasn't argued against it because it would give them a chance to exclude iMessage from the scope of the regulation. Hence, OS level support for RCS won't cover iMessage if it's also designated as a gatekeeper.
- stale2002 3y ago
  Apple wouldn't need to be blatantly targeted if they hadn't been engaging in significant anti consumer practices for years.

moritonal 3y ago

Note that this is "Rich Communication Services", not "Reaction Control System" from KSP which would have been a much more dramatic update.

LeifCarrotson 3y ago
I think that's a feature of the next XKCD Phone [1]. [1]: https://www.explainxkcd.com/wiki/index.php/Category:xkcd_Phones https://www.explainxkcd.com/wiki/index.php/Category:xkcd_Pho...
smoldesu 3y ago
I can imagine a pretty great commercial where Craig Federighi throws an iPhone like a football, and a tracking shot zooms in to show it swiveling around to correct it's orientation mid-flight.
Am4TIfIsER0ppos 3y ago
I think "Reaction Control System" is from more than just a simulator.
JCharante 3y ago
"Realtime... Control.. System?" was my 2nd guess.
tomjen3 3y ago
It would be a pretty awesome feature of the next phone if it has RCS fall control.

exabrial 3y ago

Can we please get SD Card expandable storage back next?

mattl 3y ago
iPhone never had this, so it wouldn't be "back".
- hot_gril 3y ago
  Yeah, the thing to bring back would be headphone jack.
  - mattl 3y ago
    Do any mainstream phones ship with a headphone jack now?
    - hot_gril 3y ago
      Not any one I've heard of. Which will be an issue when my iPhone 6S eventually dies.
Sohcahtoa82 3y ago
The market has spoken. People don't care about that feature. Or at least, they don't care enough about it to vote with their wallet.
- myself248 3y ago
  Supposing I did want to vote with my wallet, where would I have spent my money to make that vote heard? They seemed to disappear from everywhere at once, at least during the time I kept my last phone.
  - JCharante 3y ago
    The latest 7nm phone from Huawei lets you choose between using the second sim card tray for a sim card or removable storage up to 256GB (albeit their proprietary storage medium). From my experience, plenty of Chinese phones offer what geeks in the US want (expandable storage and removable batteries). https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Huawei_Mate_60 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Huawei_Mate_60 Removable storage NM card 256GB SIM Card slot 1: NANO-SIM Card slot 2: Choose one of the two NANO-SIM or NM memory card"

stephenr 3y ago

I'm curious if this means Apple will run their own RCS service for their customers or will rely on a telco provided one. I tried to find info for example about RCS in Australia, and saw a piece about Telstra launching RCS in 2017... but now it's apparently turned off and customers are expected to use the Google RCS service?

mattl 3y ago

I wonder what color the bubble will be?

CharlesW 3y ago
Not blue, because that signals capabilities which are specific to iMessages (E2E encryption, message effects, stickers, etc.).
jwells89 3y ago
Maybe not green, but it should probably remain different so there’s an unmistakable visual indicator of which conversations are encrypted (assuming Apple implements carrier-flavor RCS, which to my knowledge is not encrypted unlike Google-flavor).
- mdasen 3y ago
  I think it'll remain green. Apple might feel pressure to implement RCS to ward off regulators, but keeping the chats green will likely still serve Apple's purpose. Even if RCS is 100% as good as iMessage, a decade of green bubbles has cemented the perception in people's minds. Even if people don't know why a green bubble is worse (and even if they aren't worse), it will still be their perception. Apple has no reason to change the color from green and let users know that they shouldn't care as much as they used to.
  - mattl 3y ago
    I don't know many people with Android who don't use WhatsApp or Signal. Keeping SMS green would be good for purely transactional type SMS messages, and using another color for RCS would be good.
- stephenr 3y ago
  It says they're going to support Universal Profile, which is the GSMA defined feature set, and it's not immediately obvious to me if that includes E2EE capacity (I highly doubt it's a requirement) - I recall seeing something saying that "standard" (non-Google) RCS group chat doesn't support it.

edent 3y ago

I was working on RCS systems back in 2012. It was the future back them - incredible low latency for messaging and gaming, rich messaging, and a decent SDK. How did carriers fuck it up so badly that, a decade later, it's barely a blip on the messaging landscape? The were so desperate to stop OTT (over the top) services that they... locked everything down in the hope that customers wouldn't churn. It backfired spectacularly.

bastard_op 3y ago
It wasn't the carriers, it was Apple mostly winning the race in creating their walled garden, and everyone else being disinterested in an alternative in the phone race wars. It's now some badge of shame Apple users discriminate against the blue vs green windows if a friend or relative doesn't have an i-thing, and Apple loves it all the way to the bank.
- rattlesnakedave 3y ago
  Apple only has dominant marketshare in the US. Everywhere else in the world people use Whatsapp. Why didn't they all hop on the RCS train? Because it sucks to implement and is a black box to use. Google was stuck with SMS because of their inability to implement a cohesive messaging app, despite owning and distributing an operating system. So what did they do? Pitched sob stories and got the europeans to threaten to regulate. Shitty move. They should have just built something good.
  - smoldesu 3y ago
    > They should have just built something good. This, but with Apple. Whether or not Google whined about it, iMessage was never going to last. It was never a matter of if iMessage would be forced to reconcile itself with the interoperable protocol it replaced, but when. So... Apple should have been ready. They should have been drafting absurd standards centered around their own servers, and taunting Google into adopting it. They could have even charged a license fee for the software. But instead they played high and mighty, and now they have to contend with the law. Frankly, I'm glad Google summoned Shai Hulud.

deleted 3y ago

[deleted]

simbolit 3y ago

this is meant to hold back regulators, just for a couple more years, so, for a couple more years it will be green bubbles android, blue bubbles iOS. The teenage market share is 87% currently. just a couple more years is all they need.

partiallypro 3y ago
There isn't enough discussion about the impending Apple phone monopoly in the US. It's inevitable at this point.

ceejayoz 3y ago

Hopefully this'll mean better Google Fi support for the iPhone. It's a little janky, but $20/line is hard to pass up.

JCharante 3y ago
I use Google Fi for my iPhone. What am I missing out on? (asides from using more than 1 carrier's network simultanously)
- ceejayoz 3y ago
  I can't add cellular service for my Apple Watch, at all. Enabling MMS requires a somewhat convoluted set of changes to the phone's cellular settings, and despite having done them correctly I periodically get a "we couldn't send you all your texts, fix your settings" warning SMS from Google.
  - JCharante 3y ago
    Oh right. I have a cellular apple watch too but I've just forgotten about that.

photoGrant 3y ago

Looks like those Android iMessage guys had some information ahead of time.

alphabettsy 3y ago
How? Seems like they would’ve have gone through the effort if they knew.

nickvanw 3y ago

I'm pretty happy about this, I don't think Apple should be forced to open up iMessage, but not adopting the RCS standard always seemed a bit underhanded to me. Even if it sucks, better cross-platform messaging is a win for everyone.

simse 3y ago

This is great to hear. Apple should be selling phones because their phones are better, or iMessage is, not because of social pressure, which is crazy.

voidwtf 3y ago
What if the social pressure, is in part, a result of the better experience one gets with iMessage? Photos, videos, group messaging are all a significantly better experience with iMessage in my experience. This is not to say that other apps don't offer a similar experience, you can achieve much of the same functionality on Telegram or WhatsApp. It's just that it's built into the phone. Google might have achieved similar success with their own messaging platform had they'd not constantly thrown it under the bus and created a new one every month. Allo, Duo, Meet, Google+, Google Chat etc....
- nerdix 3y ago
  Mobile messaging should be either be interoperable or cross platform. And any messaging platform that is tied to one mobile operating system is user hostile.
  - Affric 3y ago
    I received my first piece of spam on iMessage last week (used it since 2011) and it was deleted instantly by Apple. I presume because they identified and removed the account's iMessage privileges. Any messaging app that permits spam is user hostile. Spam takes up more of my time than I would ever want to give on Whatsapp/Messenger/Text. iMessage has prevented me from contacting precisely zero people. If I were to walk away from my iPhone I would lose nothing after exporting some messages. The barrier to entry to other potential users of $100s is well worth it for me.

Almondsetat 3y ago

Imagine being an exec at Nothing and seeing your acquisition turn into dust Edit: it was not an acquisition but a partnership

bertman 3y ago
Context: https://nothing.community/d/2968-introducing-nothing-chats https://nothing.community/d/2968-introducing-nothing-chats
SuperNinKenDo 3y ago
Wouldn't worry at all. It's a cool feature if it works. The value in that blue bubble is less about the features of iMessage and more about social capital, not that I personally care.
- Almondsetat 3y ago
  It is about the features though. Apple users snob Android users because group messaging doesn’t work well, media features are not supported, etc. RCS offers such a rich environment that Apple could finally truly integrate most stuff transparently with iMessage. Send a video to the group chat? Everyone gets it at full quality. Make a poll? Everyone can vote.
  - freedomben 3y ago
    You're both right. The features matter, but so does the social stigma of bubble color. Nothing will still have a feature and an edge by offering a "blue bubble" on Android, but this announcement would reduce my excitement a little bit if I were them.
    - Almondsetat 3y ago
      The features Apple could not integrate with RCS will be very few, like watching an AppleTV show together or create a FaceTime call without having visible links in the chat. The social stigma stems from iMessage giving Apple users advanced and integrated messaging for free since the very beginning, which “spoiled” people into not wanting to deal with pure SMS chats.

no_wizard 3y ago

This is something I never thought I'd see. I hope the GSM association moves fast to make robust E2EE a standard required for proper implementation for carriers. That would go a long way in making a huge improvement over SMS/MMS. This is a win for RCS, ultimately. Maybe this will kick carriers into high gear to up their messaging standard support game and have standard interop. I don't think this will lead to a decline in iMessage usage, nor do I think it will be catalyst enough to get people to move to Android, because there are still things RCS won't be able to support[0] but its a big step forward for a more pleasant experience between iOS and Android. [0]: Memojis, reactions (tapbacks I think their called) and I'm curious about threaded messages. Also, at this time the actual RCS standard does not specificy that messages must be end to end encrypted. iMessage on the other hand has robust E2EE encryption (and you can get even more robust encryption by enabling Advanced Data Protection)

hedora 3y ago
The only reason they'd move to E2EE would be if Apple forced them. Looking at / selling message contents is a large potential revenue source for all the other major players.
- no_wizard 3y ago
  Lets hope they will. Apple is a bit of a forcing function in the cellular industry, especially in the US.
- greentea23 3y ago
  I am fairly certain that it's illegal to sell the content of SMS messages in the United States at least. The metadata like who is messaging who and timestamps and best guess locations maybe is sold though. But the contents can be obtained by law enforcement. However, I think the contents are purged after some expiration time.
  - xattt 3y ago
    > … fairly certain that it's illegal to sell the content of SMS messages in the United States at least There will be some ridiculous loophole like leasing will be allowed of all vowels on Mondays, and all consonants on Tuesdays.

throw0101a 3y ago

> Breaking: Apple will support RCS - the green bubble shame set to end Note that the green bubble could be kept for other reasons: RCS is a major improvement over SMS/MMS, but there could still be functionality that isn't on par with a completely in-house system like 'iMessage'. The green/blue distinction may still be useful for setting certain expectations on how things work.

TechRemarker 3y ago
Yeah definetly would not expect it to be blue as 9 to 5 noted how Apple mentioned it won't be as secure as iMessage and iMessage will be separate. So presumably people texting will still want to know if they see blue they get full privacy where is if they see green or a new color it means yes they get lots of new features like iMessage, but not as secure as iMessage. But the green bubble (or whatever new color) will be less shameful, if users in general can group chat and chat easily without worrying about not being able to do most all the standard features they can with other iPhone users. Time will tell.
- sonicanatidae 3y ago
  "Privacy" is not the reason a lot of people comment on green text bubbles. It's status. That's it. If they truly cared about sec, they would use something like Signal.
  - averageRoyalty 3y ago
    Both Signal and iMessage are E2EE, SMS is not. Why do you feel Signal is better security wise?
    - sneak 3y ago
      iMessage, in practice, is not e2ee as devices escrow their “Messages in iCloud” cross-device sync keys to Apple in the non-e2ee iCloud Backup. Even if you turn on e2ee for iCloud (“Advanced Data Protection”), your endpoint keys will stop being escrowed in a way readable to Apple in your backup, but the endpoint keys for everyone you message with will still be escrowed because they have not enabled Advanced Data Protection (because it’s off by default), so Apple will still be able to read all of your iMessage traffic. 99.9%+ of iMessages pass through Apple servers encrypted with keys that Apple has copies of (thanks to the insecure non-e2ee default nature of iCloud Backup). If the middle transit service has the private keys, it’s not e2ee.

hedora 3y ago

I hope they continue the green bubble shaming. Apparently RCS (at least as implemented in practice) still doesn't support end to end encryption. In particular, they should color messages green if they can be forged by intermediaries / collected for bulk surveillance / used for ad targeting / sold to third parties by your carrier / etc.

deleted 3y ago
[deleted]

apienx 3y ago

Google ran a clever “Time for SMS to exit the chat” campaign some time ago. Might have helped precipitate this decision. https://youtu.be/N_B0riy__rw?si=C-gDkNbmb3MFyWao https://youtu.be/N_B0riy__rw?si=C-gDkNbmb3MFyWao Telcos live in the Stone Age. A little disruption is well overdue.

microtonal 3y ago
Unlikely. This is most likely due to regulatory pressure of the EU. The Digital Services Act and Digital Markets Act both hit Apple pretty hard. Though the real losers here are potentially WhatsApp, Telegram and other third-party services (assuming that Apple will implement E2E encryption). Since iPhone is not as dominant in other countries as the US, WhatsApp and some other messaging services have become dominant outside the US. They are not really necessary anymore once there is a proper standard across platforms.
- apienx 3y ago
  Right. They started investigating iMessage a couple of months back. https://www.theverge.com/2023/9/6/23861030/imessage-bing-european-union-commission-digital-markets-act-dma https://www.theverge.com/2023/9/6/23861030/imessage-bing-eur...
lxgr 3y ago
Telcos should be utilities. They supply the pipes that deliver services and applications. RCS is unfortunately a step backwards from that idea. And regarding Google's motivations for that campaign: They have acquired a company offering RCS services to telcos and marketers... https://jibe.google.com/ https://jibe.google.com/
rootusrootus 3y ago
> Telcos live in the Stone Age. A little disruption is well overdue. I thought RCS was still a Telco-based service? Don't you have to have a telephone number to use it, at least? I keep hoping we go away from POTS, instead of continuing to invent reasons to be stuck with it.

system16 3y ago

> This will work alongside iMessage, which will continue to be the best and most secure messaging experience for Apple users," said an Apple spokesperson. I could be wrong but I don’t see anything here to suggest non-iMessages will no longer have the “green bubble” like the author assumes.

rconti 3y ago
agreed, in fact I suspect it'll remain a green bubble for "insecure" but at least more features will be supported.
collegeburner 3y ago
it will remain green, which means the signaling effect will also remain. the funny thing is everyone claims it's down to quality but guessing it won't matter, plus no 8ball/facetime will still push people towards iphones. especially w young ppl, where i think like 90% have iphones. if i had a nickel for every time a gal mentioned green bubbles give her the ick, i wouldn't be rich but could probably buy a solid steak dinner off it.
- thedaly 3y ago
  > green bubbles give her the ick I mean, I guess I would be grateful to have such an earlier indicator that someone is not worth pursuing. Truly, who cares.
  - filoleg 3y ago
    It’s not that they would reject you if they already had some sort of a connection formed with you or that they consider having “green bubbles”to be an absolute dealbreaker. But if you have 5 similarly good on paper dating candidates, you are in the very initial stage of the process with them, and you need to narrow down the list, I don’t think it is that unreasonable to do so based on “the ease of texting.” You gotta narrow down somehow, and if doing so based on “green bubbles” eliminates 1-2 max out of 5 in the very initial stage, it is kind of a not that terrible of a metric. If it was eliminating half or more, it would be a bit more questionable. Of course, eliminating someone for “green bubbles” after you had already developed some interest in is way too much and is indeed a trait that would make one not worth pursuing.

signal11 3y ago

What’s the story around e2e encryption on RCS these days? In the past there were a few countries that didn’t allow it, no idea if that has changed. Also, will iMessage support for RCS include e2ee?

faet 3y ago
Apple will be pushing for RCS/Carriers to adopt e2e, but it'll probably just flag green/notify users that messages are not encrypted.
- lxgr 3y ago
  Anything that needs the participation of every carrier on the planet is doomed from the get-go.
- threeseed 3y ago
  As someone who has worked for two carriers Apple, Google etc have little clout. Governments and their intelligence organisations are what matters. And countries like UK will be pushing as hard as possible to make E2EE optional.
enragedcacti 3y ago
The current status iirc is that Google built its own e2e solutions in Android Messages, first for one-on-one conversations and as of August 2023 for group chats as well. They released technical papers but I don't think the implementations are part of the official spec. I think this section is basically Apple saying that they are going to push for that standardization: > Finally, Apple says it will work with the GSMA members on ways to further improve the RCS protocol. This particularly includes improving the security and encryption of RCS messages. I doubt anything has changed since 2020 in terms of China, Cuba, Iran or Russia but I couldn't find any news one way or the other
- microtonal 3y ago
  The good news is that Google's E2E solution is the Signal protocol: https://www.gstatic.com/messages/papers/messages_e2ee.pdf?sjid=15104526344564008424-EU https://www.gstatic.com/messages/papers/messages_e2ee.pdf?sj...

throw0101a 3y ago

Is there E2EE in the actual RCS specification? Can there be, given that telcos are usually subject to lawful intercept laws? AIUI, what Google/Android does is have their own extension, with the Content-Type of the message being "application/vnd.google.rcs.encrypted": * https://www.gstatic.com/messages/papers/messages_e2ee.pdf https://www.gstatic.com/messages/papers/messages_e2ee.pdf This is kind of like, with (E)SMTP/IMAP, having your own capability of "X-GOOG-ENCRYPT" if the standards-based "STARTTLS" was not around. So while RCS gives many other improvement over SMS/MMS, encryption is not one of them. (Personally I have an iPhone, but don't conect 'iMessage', and generally stick with SMS/MMS.)

Andrex 3y ago
The MLS protocol proposed by Google provides a cross platform path to E2EE. https://thehackernews.com/2023/07/google-messages-getting-cross-platform.html?m=1 https://thehackernews.com/2023/07/google-messages-getting-cr...
a2dam 3y ago
There isn't E2EE in the RCS spec, but there's in-transit TLS encryption
jvolkman 3y ago
STARTTLS is client-to-server (or at least node-to-node). RCS node-to-node is already always encrypted. E2EE is like both sending and receiving parties agreeing to use PGP. The servers aren't involved with the details; they just move the opaque bytes.

deleted 3y ago

[deleted]

jmull 3y ago

> the green bubble shame set to end I'm betting the non-Apple bubbles will remain green... and remain a bit stigmatized. It was never about the resolution of pictures and even technical limitations around group chat was just part of it. It's a social thing and the technical protocol is incidental. Dr. Seuss probably explained it best in The Sneetches.

hotnfresh 3y ago
> It was never about the resolution of pictures and even technical limitations around group chat was just part of it. It can be about both. It’s really nice to know when the images you sent are gonna be potato-quality and you need to find some other channel to send them, or that message reliability and capabilities in general are being limited to SMS (or RCS!) levels. I don’t give a shit about the social aspects, it’s valuable as a UI affordance.
sonicanatidae 3y ago
I love when people comment on the color of a text message. It makes it real easy to know who to block, because they worry about entirely the wrong things.
- Invictus0 3y ago
  There's no one to block, you just won't be included when the groupchat is setup. Big problem for teens.
  - ryandvm 3y ago
    I dunno. Sounds like being left out of those groups is a net positive.
    - rootusrootus 3y ago
      Yeah it kinda makes me want to get my kids Android phones.
  - 3y ago

crazygringo 3y ago

What a surprise! I'm quite sure RCS bubbles will be green though, and that's still going to be enough of a difference when it comes to teen groups and even adult dating. The EU may mandate interoperability, but I don't see them mandating bubble color...

rattlesnakedave 3y ago
> but I don't see them mandating bubble color I personally see no limit to what arbitrary nonsense regulation the EU is willing to push.
- bloppe 3y ago
  The EU is interested in fair competition. Apple has managed to provide a terrible cross-platform messaging experience to their own customers for years while successfully convincing everyone that the problem is due to every other phone besides theirs. I agree it's almost comical, but it certainly affects competition in a negative way.
  - rattlesnakedave 3y ago
    I don't buy this. Customers needed no convincing from Apple. Even where iOS isn't dominant they saw their dropped and expensive SMS/RCS messages and picked up whatsapp.
    - bloppe 3y ago
      I'm mostly just talking about the noxious white-on-green color they chose for cross-platform chat bubbles. It's a great example of hostile architecture. RCS fixes the cost / reliability problems of SMS, so that annoying color choice will be the only thing they have left to make imessage users feel superior.
      - sbuk 3y ago
        Historically, SMS messages have had green bubbles since the iPhone was introduced in 2007. When Apple introduced iMessage in 2011, the showed iMessages in blue, and maintained the green for SMS messages. They are not “cross-platform” messages, Messages only does SMS and iMessage. If you did some reading, instead of getting upset over the longstanding colour of a chat message, you’d know this and not be so angry. Or, like th rest of the world, you would already be using an alternative.

whoopdedo 3y ago

Is there a sunset timeline for SMS? No service lasts forever and if Apple knows carriers will want to turn it off sometime they'd have to get on board with the RCS sooner rather than too late.

freedomben 3y ago
Apple is big enough that they could make the carriers keep SMS. If a carrier tried to remove it and break "compatibility" with the iPhone, Apple would block that carrier from having iPhones altogether, which would decimate that carriers business. So through a causative chain, Apple could force carriers to keep SMS.
- threeseed 3y ago
  a) Apple doesn't decide whether carriers keep SMS. Governments do. b) Apple won't stop users from using a particular carrier because of commercial considerations. It would be a clear breach of anti-competition laws. c) Many carriers don't have relationships with Apple to sell the iPhone. And in many places internationally the iPhone is not even that popular. What matters is whether you can buy a SIM and install it into your phone.
lxgr 3y ago
Probably never. At the very least, RCS itself needs SMS for account provisioning on a new device. I also don't see every business relying on SMS for B2C messaging (and in particular for SMS-OTP) switching to RCS anytime soon.
averageRoyalty 3y ago
Who would be in charge of sunsetting such a thing?
- Symbiote 3y ago
  The GSM Association. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GSMA https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GSMA
3y ago

ChrisArchitect 3y ago

Oddly related from yesterday: Nothing Phone says it will hack into iMessage, bring blue bubbles to Android https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38271775 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38271775

commoner 3y ago

Excellent. The next step is for Google to release a free and open source way for Android developers to build apps that send RCS messages. Currently, the only messaging app on Android that fully supports RCS is Messages by Google, which is closed source and requires Google Play Services to activate RCS features. Also, end-to-end encryption is not part of the RCS specification, but is a proprietary extension to RCS that Google has made exclusive to Messages by Google.[1] This feature should be made open and added to the actual RCS specification so that Apple and other vendors can make use of it. (Notes: There is a proprietary RCS API which Google only allows Samsung apps to use to communicate with Messages by Google.[2] Verizon has an app called Verizon Messages or Message+ that uses RCS to some extent, but this is an incomplete implementation that only works on Samsung devices on the Verizon network with no cross-carrier compatibility.[3]) [1] https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2021/06/google-enables-end-to-end-encryption-for-androids-default-sms-rcs-app/ https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2021/06/google-enables-end-t... [2] https://www.xda-developers.com/google-messages-rcs-api-third-party-apps/ https://www.xda-developers.com/google-messages-rcs-api-third... [3] https://www.verizon.com/support/knowledge-base-222792/ https://www.verizon.com/support/knowledge-base-222792/

jabart 3y ago
Don't use the Verizon Messages app. The privacy policy was terrible three years ago.
hbn 3y ago
This is why I don't buy Google's bad faith shaming of Apple for not adopting RCS. The current version of it that people are using on Android isn't even a "standard" by any normal usage of the term, it's just another Google messaging service. No one can make their own app, and there's barely any carrier adoption, so Google is basically running the whole network. Does this mean that now if you send a message to someone from an iPhone that doesn't go through iMessage, it will instead go through Google's servers? Sure the service will hopefully be better than SMS but at the cost of giving Google the keys to pretending they're a "standard."
- lxgr 3y ago

spiralpolitik 3y ago

The lede is quite cleverly buried here. Key sentence is "We will be adding support for RCS Universal Profile, the standard as currently published by the GSM Association" So no end to end encryption and the bubbles will most still likely be green. Even with the mutterings about improving security etc it's unlikely that the GSM Association will ever sign off on any encryption scheme that isn't weak or backdoored.

danaris 3y ago
To be clear, based on what I've read: "no end-to-end encryption" simply means that Apple is not going to either a) develop their own, proprietary E2EE system for RCS, or b) pay Google for theirs. And good grief, get over the bubble color thing. Of course RCS isn't going to have blue bubbles; those specifically indicate an iMessage message. Maybe they'll be green, or maybe they'll be purple, orange, or red, to differentiate them from SMS. That's all the different colors are for: a useful indication of what messaging system that user is currently using. If Apple didn't color the bubbles differently, you'd see people moaning and complaining that there's no way to tell who you can and can't make a group chat with, or whether you can send them stickers and reactions.
- nu11ptr 3y ago
  > And good grief, get over the bubble color thing I agree it is stupid, but there most definitely is a "status thing" going on with the whole green vs. blue as well.
  - cubefox 3y ago
    This will probably go away over time as everyone supports most the same features.
  - danaris 3y ago
    Personally, I have no experience with it—but I don't doubt that it exists for some people. What I object to is people insisting that the "status thing" some people have going on with it is Apple's responsibility to fix by removing useful indicators of who's using what messaging services, or that Apple is deliberately and maliciously making people not using iMessage somehow look worse. (On the other hand, I think there's a perfectly legitimate argument that Apple could and should open iMessage, and is choosing not to do so for relatively selfish reasons. I don't have a strong opinion on that one either way.)

daft_pink 3y ago

I really hope Apple allows us to disable many of RCS's features like read receipts and previews. I really don't want spammy users to start seeing read receipts, etc.

curt15 3y ago
You can disable read receipts in RCS just like you can with iMessage: https://www.makeuseof.com/how-to-disable-read-receipts-rcs-android-samsung/ https://www.makeuseof.com/how-to-disable-read-receipts-rcs-a...
kiwijamo 3y ago
Previews are an app feature, not in the RCS protocol itself. I see message previews for SMS/MMS messages on Apple/Android devices despite the SMS/MMS protocol having no concept of previews. Most likely true for RCS as well.
rootusrootus 3y ago
I'm worried about the spam. I hope they provide the ability to turn RCS off altogether if that's going to be a problem.
- daft_pink 3y ago
  I don't think they can turn it off altogether, because it's essentially replacing sms, but I hope they allow us to disable a ton of the features or put it into a separate app.

marwis 3y ago

I wonder when Google will add proper RCS to their own Google Fi? Currently one has to disable Fi cloud sync losing a lot of features.

hot_gril 3y ago
So what was the deal with Android users complaining about iPhones not supporting RCS all this time, when it's not so universal among carriers to begin with? Not to mention how many people just use WhatsApp instead.
- dagmx 3y ago
  Most people aren’t technically savvy enough to understand the nuance, especially when team sports takes over

crop_rotation 3y ago

I have only used Android phones and I strongly dislike RCS. RCS in theory is a standard but in practice it is == "Google Messages" the app. I don't know of a single telco that supports it (hosting their own infra of it), nor does any other SMS app (maybe 1 or 2 being exception that proves the rule). RCS(Google Messages) is just another messaging app like Whatsapp/Signal just that it pretends being a standard. AFAIK AOSP has no RCS APIs like it has for SMS. Not to mention the amount of SPAM one gets on RCS is comparable only to traditional SMS, and blocking has no effect unlike Whatsapp. It exists mainly because Google got tired of making messaging apps that weren't dominating the world (Hangouts/Allo) and thought that forcing a standard might be the only option available to them. E2E is optional and there is no switch that says only do E2E. There might be some solution needed to let iMessage interoperate with Android, but pretending RCS is a standard just like SMS that Apple was not supporting is wishful thinking.

adrr 3y ago

Please let users be able to disable RCS support. One nice thing about iMessage is that lacks spam. It is the only platform where i don't get spammed by bots.

eiiot 3y ago
I still get plenty of iMessage spam. From this morning: "Your USPS package could not be delivered. please check this link for more information: https:// https://...."

bilal4hmed 3y ago

Interestingly enough the person who wrote the white paper for the signal protocol implementation in Googles RCS, Emad Omara, now works for Apple https://www.gstatic.com/messages/papers/messages_e2ee.pdf https://www.gstatic.com/messages/papers/messages_e2ee.pdf

mcculley 3y ago

Should we expect that delivery status notification will work and be surfaced in the UI? I end up encouraging those who are on SMS to go to WhatsApp just because I can never be sure that the message was delivered. Working across many countries and providers, SMS is still very unreliable. There is no way in iOS to know if a green bubble got the message or not.

bilal4hmed 3y ago

viktorcode 3y ago

I'm willing to bet the RCS bubble will still be green to indicate loss of p2p encryption.

sircastor 3y ago
The RCS bubble will at best be a color other than blue. The whole "blue bubble" class stratification is a competitive advantage for Apple, even if it's not truly earned. RCS provides a lot of the features that have made iMessage a preferable experience. And over time the collective consciousness may drift towards inclusiveness or indifference towards whatever bubble color RCS turns out to be, but I feel confident that unless it's mandated by some government body, Apple will keep blue bubbles to exclusively indicated iMessage.
albert180 3y ago
Why? There is E2E available with RCS
- viktorcode 3y ago
  From what I read here it’s not a part of RCS standard. Another point is Apple uses their own p2p encryption for Messages, which will not be compatible with others.

Racing0461 3y ago

Yay, more third world pressure to bring ios down to android's level. What's next? My iphone coming preinstalled with whatsapp with 5 norton antivirus refund rooms already prejoined?

deleted 3y ago
[deleted]
PrimeMcFly 3y ago
It's not "third world pressure", what the heck? Besides, I think you mean UP to Android's level. It's pressure to adhere to standards. Maybe you can't see it, but it's a good thing.
- Shekelphile 3y ago
  > Besides, I think you mean UP to Android's level. Uh no, considering RCS is seriously flawed in design and implementation and doesn't encrypt messages end-to-end or even in flight. > It's pressure to adhere to standards. Maybe you can't see it, but it's a good thing. Calling RCS a standard is loaded. It was all but abandoned for years until google started forcing it on users and tacking proprietary extensions on top of it.

suddenexample 3y ago

Anyone have an idea what features the "RCS Universal Profile, the standard as currently published by the GSM Association" actually entails for users in terms of feature support? I know E2E encryption isn't a part of it, but was having trouble finding information about whether the Universal Profile includes other features like replies, read receipts, typing indicators, reactions, voice messages, etc. As an aside, this is huge but the media is really milking the clickbait when reporting "the end of green bubble shame" - even if Apple were to support all of the above features in their RCS implementation, I'm sure they'll keep the bubbles green. They've always been adept at designing for user psychology.

nashashmi 3y ago

Will Google drop their request for iMessage to be opened? Will that request become obsolete?

ralferoo 3y ago

As an Android user, it'd be nice if replying "No" to "Do you want RCS?" meant "Never ask me again" and wasn't just interpreted as "ask me again in next week and every week thereafter".

solardev 3y ago
Pssst... you sure you don't want RCS? All your cool blue bubble friends are using it now!
- atonse 3y ago
  What? Are you saying this in jest? Then I'm missing the humor because this is completely false...
  - solardev 3y ago
    Yes :/ Like Android might soon use ios compatibility as a reason to further annoy you about changing protocols
cesarb 3y ago
> and wasn't just interpreted as "ask me again in next week and every week thereafter". It gets even worse; last week, on a relative's phone, after weeks of clicking "not now" it just force-enabled RCS, and displayed something like a "we automatically enabled RCS for you, here's what you should do if you want to disable it again" (completely confusing said non-technical relative). Needless to say, I quickly went into the settings and disabled it again; I just hope that it having been enabled for a few minutes doesn't mean it will no longer be able to receive messages from RCS users (like the rumors I heard many years ago of people who enabled iMessage and later changed back to Android no longer receiving any SMS from iMessage users).
dcgudeman 3y ago
why don't you want RCS?
- 3y ago

northisup 3y ago

What is the over/under on RCS messages still being green?

solardev 3y ago

Someone please roll poor Steve back over.

viraptor 3y ago

I wonder what's the play here. They seem to make noise about RCS recently and give it attention, even though it seems they'll be forced by the EU to open up the iMessage system soon. Apple is not known for Google's "let's have 5 different communication apps at the same time", so... what's happening here?

SllX 3y ago
Probably the angle is to find some way to tell the EU to get stuffed as far as opening iMessage up goes. Apple only has to comply with the law. The issue is that the EC is on a high right now trying to see how far they can enforce control over US tech companies, so they might just go back and double down with more legislation if Apple finds a way to comply with the law without complying with the outcome the EC actually wanted.
vineyardmike 3y ago
There’s probably a few things at play. First, not every iPhone user can be iMessage-only and SMS is a shitty experience. In most non-US countries, they’re not winning the iMessage shame battle, they’re driving people to WhatsApp. They’d probably rather people use the built in messaging app, which will incentivize you to use iMessage. Secondly, getting more involved gives them opportunities to embrace/extinguish rcs (they said they won’t extend it). If they can use their market to force encryption on everyone, for example, that makes them look like the good guys against android makers. I could also see them trying to genuinely push UX improvements (eg stickers) on RCS and exiting iMessage from European Markets entirely. Finally, If the EU forces open iMessage, it’ll probably force open other messaging services, which gives RCS an opportunity to grow. See point 1 about them losing already in Europe. Or gives Apple a horse in the race even if they simply withdraw iMessage instead of opening it up.
- albert180 3y ago
  RCS is already End to End decrypted by default on Pixel Phones
  - 3y ago

sva_ 3y ago

I doubt they'll give the messages the same background color though.

hospitalJail 3y ago

So now Apple users can finally receive video? Yay! I can send gym memes to my iphone friend! Oh wait they still cant open .webm without a half dozen steps. Oh well. Lols for us Androids only. Maybe iphones can open webms by 2028.

ars 3y ago

It would be nice if Google would support RCS first! Specifically in Google Voice which for some perplexing reason does not support it.

jedberg 3y ago

It's funny that everyone says "green bubble shame". Green bubble never meant "Android". It just meant SMS. I get green bubbles with iPhones sometimes when my data isn't working but SMS is. The whole point was to tell you that you may be charged for the message because some carries charge per SMS.

ephimetheus 3y ago

Is RCS a thing in Europe? I don’t think I’ve ever seen this mentioned anywhere. Does the carrier sell you an RCS package? Does it apply to messages to other countries? If that’s the case, I don’t see how it could compete with any internet message service that exists today in any capacity.

hocuspocus 3y ago
> Is RCS a thing in Europe? I don’t think I’ve ever seen this mentioned anywhere. Yes. Most Android users with either the Google or Samsung Messages app are already using RCS without noticing when they message each other. > Does the carrier sell you an RCS package? No, it's yet another OTT service, even if your messaging app is provisioned by your carrier to use its own RCS infrastructure (which is Google Jibe in all cases).

omnibrain 3y ago

From a german perspective that looks strange. 3 of at the time 4 carriers tried to adopt RCS and push it into the market a few years ago. They called it "joyn" but nobody ever used it. Everybody is using WhatsApp, except for some privacy conscious folks.

mikhael28 3y ago

Sweet! Now Google can stop complaining.

fyrn_ 3y ago

Probably related to https://www.engadget.com/nothing-phone-2-is-getting-imessage-support-this-friday--with-some-catches-194655776.html https://www.engadget.com/nothing-phone-2-is-getting-imessage... Or at least they may have moved the announcement forward

MBCook 3y ago
I doubt it. Also I don’t know how they’re doing that, but I’m more than willing to bet Apple will make sure it doesn’t work very long at all.
- fyrn_ 3y ago
  Google has been trying thusfar unsuccessfully to get legislative forces involved. Really doubt Apple would decide to add any fuel to that fire by going after a small company trying to be compatible with their products. Would look terrible in court and they know it.
  - MBCook 3y ago
    I think it depends on how they do it. If it’s some sort of utility that runs on your Mac, that exists and would likely be ok. If they “broke in” somehow Apple will fix it and cut them off again.

meindnoch 3y ago

Thanks, I'm sticking to iMessage.

edandersen 3y ago

I wonder if Apple will let you disable iMessage and use just RCS instead?

asadm 3y ago
You can disable iMessage already and just use SMS/MMS... So should be possible.
- hot_gril 3y ago
  You can also disable MMS.

nu11ptr 3y ago

Now if only they would open iMessage or at least release Windows/Linux/Web/Android clients so I can give up BlueBubbles. One can dream...

shmerl 3y ago

lol, Apple is so "innovative". It only takes them to be last to implement something like that. And USB-C too.

paxys 3y ago

Despite the usual "I want Apple to be a walled garden" sentiment that is prevalent on HN, I'm glad that the EU, DoJ and all the various corporate lawsuits are finally forcing Apple to open up their ecosystem, even if it is still far from where it should be. The smartphone is now the primary personal computer for most of the planet, and deserves to be treated as such.

cubefox 3y ago
iOS though is still very much a walled garden when it comes to installing apps.
aalimov_ 3y ago
I would assume that if you buy an iPhone you are (at least nowadays) aware that you are not going to be side loading applications or getting a device with third party bloatware installed that you can’t remove without a level of technical skill. How is it that they can be forced to open up their ecosystem if nobody is forced to purchase their devices, and when there are so many alternatives available. Especially when it seems (to me) that the only real beneficiaries from that move would be advertisers or companies like epic, spotify, google. > even if it is still far from where it should be. Where do you reckon it should be? Do you think they should let developers do/access whatever they want, or do you mean something else? Do you personally use an android or ios device (or maybe some niche os)?
- ThatPlayer 3y ago
  Users are allowed to criticize devices they use. Do you think your phone is perfect and nothing can be improved? I think being able to install other app stores is an improvement on my device. "If you don't like it, leave" doesn't actually address the criticism. It's an informal fallacy: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ergo_decedo https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ergo_decedo . "If Apple don't like the EU's laws, they can just leave, but they don't so therefore they must be okay with the laws". You see how the "therefore" isn't true? That's why it being actual free market competition where consumers have a choice is the real test. If 100% of people on iOS want to stick exclusively with the Apple App Store, then it being forced open won't matter because all other stores will fail when no user installs them. On the other hand, if users are willing to use those other stores, maybe iOS users don't actually care about using exclusively Apple's App Store. Then the only one who benefits from blocking that is Apple to charge their extra fees. Look at their reasoning for removing Fortnite from the store: because Epic added an additional payment processor that wasn't Apple. It's not like they removed Apple payment as an option either. So users had the benefit of more choices!

bilsbie 3y ago

Would this allow texting without a phone? My kid doesn’t want a phone but wants to text his friends. Are there any options or will there be after this?

onlyhumans 3y ago
So a phone without it being a phone?

bilsbie 3y ago

It would be cool if They could add features to group chats like adding or removing participants.

aldousd666 3y ago

I don't think Google would have even cared about RCS if Apple would just make the bubbles the same color. Kids these days.

dboreham 3y ago

Bit late. They should at least support svn.

alams 3y ago

Did Nothing Phones chat app announcement influence Apple's surprise announcement?

qwertox 3y ago

PSA: While Google's Messages app previously always asked if you want to enable RCS (which I always declined), their latest October update enabled it without asking. It also enabled read messages notification to the sender as well as realtime typing notification to the peer.

alberth 3y ago

Thumbs up (and other reaction responses)? Does this mean giving an RCS message a "thumbs up" (or heart, or "haha") will now be supported from iOS and vice versa?

throwaway128128 3y ago

Hooray for regulation.

classified 3y ago

And there I was thinking that Apple would finally introduce a Revision Control System.

willhackett 3y ago

I love that this was but moments after Nothing was announcing iMessage support.

physicsguy 3y ago

It's almost too late, at least here in Europe, WhatsApp is pretty ubiquitous, probably because the split between Android and iPhone is much more even. Even my elderly relatives use WhatsApp, it's that popular. My local village has a chat group on it.

deleted 3y ago
[deleted]

dark-star 3y ago

I wonder why they didn't at least go with SCCS, maybe even CVS?

car 3y ago

So does this mean we can run our own RCS servers, just like email? Probably a pain to set up, but should be possible. Since it's based on IMS which in turn is based on SIP, Open Source SIP servers could be the used, e.g. https://www.opensips.org/Documentation/Tutorials-RCS-Managing-Capabilities https://www.opensips.org/Documentation/Tutorials-RCS-Managin.... Also, will they allow using URI's instead of phone numbers for contacts?

issafram 3y ago

Now give us the FaceTime app...

avipars 3y ago

Still will have a green bubble though

hahamaster 3y ago

Time for another color, blue for iMessages, green for SMS, light brown for RCS.

swagempire 3y ago

Im not sure this is much of a surprise-- as shocking as it may seem to Americans -- iMessages is not widely used outside of North America. So Apple is just trying to bridge the technology gap here. iMessages is pretty dated.

lencastre 3y ago

Can’t they fix the 0-day no-open message exploits first?