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Fucking good. It's bullshit that you can only run Safari on iOS or that the App Store is the only store you can use. Yes, I understand the security implicatio
by nunez 3y ago
Fucking good.
It's bullshit that you can only run Safari on iOS or that the App Store is the only store you can use.
Yes, I understand the security implications of a third-party browser having deeper integrations into the OS and potential battery life concerns.
I also don't care.
I want to run Firefox on my phone. The actual thing. With containers and extensions. Let Safari compete on the merits.
I want the choice of being able to pay for a great app or use its "good enough" open source equivalent outside of the App Store.
iOS is a fantastic operating system. iPhone and iPad are stellar hardware with brilliant physical UX. Apple Watch is leagues beyond anything else in its class. I will keep buying Apple stuff until I can't anymore.
But a monopoly on core system functions isn't necessary to keep that high bar high.
- highwayman47 3y ago[flagged]
- myko 3y agoThe AltStore apps I've installed are pretty reliable
- highwayman47 3y ago[flagged]
- idle_zealot 3y agoIt's a pain in the ass to use, and some permissions are still locked to Apple's first party apps.
- shuckles 3y agoIt's really funny that there are hackers arguing sincerely that software freedom is worth any price but think it's a "pain in the ass" to press a couple buttons for software freedom once a week (or annually, for $99).
- nrabulinski 3y agoWhy should I pay for what should be a basic right?
- shuckles 3y agoBeing able to run self-signed software for more than a week at a time without pressing a button to renew your signature is a basic right?
- idle_zealot 3y agoBeing able to run the software you want on a computer you own is a right, yes.
- shuckles 3y agoYou can already do that with a free developer account.
- eviks 3y agoIt's only funny in your trivialized dismissal that ignores the other 99% of users those hackers might care about (also "pain" and "worth it" aren't contradictory)
- shuckles 3y agoHackers do not care about 99% of users, as evidenced by the fact that Apple created the most popular and accessible consumer software in history, not hackers. You make a reasonable point that the poster didn’t imply painfulness made the Altstore not worthwhile for them personally.
- eviks 3y agoWhat is your evidence that caring is enough to build the most popular global business?
- eitland 3y agoThat it requires rooting and rooting means my banking app stops working AFAIK.
- faeriechangling 3y agoApple goes out of their way to make it time consuming and annoying enough to use that most people won't bother using it, and the alt store has substantial restrictions compared to the App Store.
- myko 3y agoIt costs me $99/yr to pay Apple for the privilege of using it to install apps on my own devices
- cozzyd 3y agomany of the best apps I have are from f-droid...
- henry2023 3y agoWhich ones? Maybe there's one or two I can check
- sureglymop 3y agoBreezyWeather, DavX5, jtx Board, Shelter, Floccus, FediLab, UntrackMe, Keepass2Android, andOTP, OpenKeychain, PCAPDroid, AnkiDroid. These are some good ones off the top of my head.
- filcuk 3y agoDavX5 is life changing
- gausswho 3y agoI'm not understanding how it's able to provide sync of calendar contacts while using the GSuite apps, without said apps dialing home.
- sureglymop 3y agoIt uses CalDav and CardDav to sync calendars and contacts with the android system, not with these apps. If you build android from source it doesn't come with the GApps suite and you can use any other calendar and contacts apps which then use the calendars and contacts provided by the system.
- johnnyworker 3y agoI'm sure there are many ways, but I used https://sabre.io/baikal/ https://sabre.io/baikal/ to get a CalDAV and CardDAV server on cheap (shared, bog standard) web hosting, and then pointed Thunderbird to it. Apart from automatic syncing of contacts between devices, I can now edit my phone contacts on the desktop, which is so awesome.
- mmis1000 3y agoWebkit is __not__ stable in any sense. It is the most buggy render engine I even seen. To make things even worse. Safari restrict the debugging of itself and also viewing the logs in the name of "s e c u ri t y". So you can't even see the reason that causes crashs and workaround it.
- Keyframe 3y agoThat's just straight up drinking from the Apple Kool-Aid PR fountain.
- eviks 3y agoExcept it's not reliable, so there is no cake
- labrador 3y agoAgreed. Who doesn't want Apple to be more open?
- thehappypm 3y agoTo me the closed ecosystem is just a nice user experience. Explaining to my mom how to download Whatsapp is simple with just one way to do it. All apps are downloaded the same way. There’s one login. One payment method. Everything kinda “just works” and Apple does its best to keep apps sandboxed and secure. To the typical end user, a more open environment is just more choice and more headache.
- ankurdhama 3y agoHaving more choice means that in case you need them you can use these other choices, it doesn't mean you will have to explain to someone about all these different choices and how they work, your current explanation of how to download apps will still be valid. Also, these new choices will not impact the sandbox implementation of core iOS.
- numlock86 3y ago> Having more choice means that in case you need them you can use these other choices, it doesn't mean you will have to explain to someone about all these different choices and how they work, So you want to hide them from the user? Are they really choices then anymore? Or how would the user know that these are choices they can, if they want, ignore? "Hey mom, yeah, don't worry, just scroll past most of the 27 choices and pick the 16th one. That one turned out to be the one everyone uses, it's easiest to explain. Yes, the one between choice X and choice Y. Oh, wait that's Z for you? Hm, you must be on version C still. In version F it's the 16th one. Just tell me the last dozen ones. Hm, no. Oh, yeah, I guess that choice has not been added yet. I think it was part of update D that brought the other 3 choices. Yeah, sorry, guess you can't do it like everyone else then." Edit: I tried to over-dramatize this but it feels like a conversation about Android I had the other day now that I read it myself ...
- dnissley 3y agoSwitch to another phone then. Easy peasy. Why would you buy a phone with this known limitation if you care about it?
- partiallypro 3y agoNow apply this argument to PCs in the 90s and you can probably see how dumb it is.
- dnissley 3y agoWas Microsoft preventing people from installing firefox on their PCs? Am I misremembering this era?
- 1letterunixname 3y agoI guess you either are unaware or have an outdated device. I have Brave set to the default browser on iPadOS and iOS. There was/is previously a restriction on including dynamic content or non UIWebView/WKWebView rendering, but I'm unaware of current IAS-MAS policies. You're also demanding the impossible/very difficult because mobile browsers don't support extensions. It's just not a thing. Also, Firefox is already available for iOS. If it doesn't meet your requirements, then it's FOSS and you're welcome to contribute improvements that meet your requirements.
- frizlab 3y agoSafari on iOS does have support for extensions or am I missing something?
- hamandcheese 3y agoExtensions that are less powerful and must go through App Store review. Which is fine, if you want that keep using Safari! But I'd like to run actual Firefox.
- ericmay 3y agoWhy not buy an Android device then? Once you remove these things that you want to remove, you wind up losing the very things that attract you to iPhone in the first place!
- Moldoteck 3y agoPpl are not buying iphone bc they think they can't install ff with gecko lol, they buy iphones bc these are good hardware and longterm support. Both of these will remain unchanged with ability to sideload apps
- a-user-you-like 3y agoIncorrect. A select few greedy people are using force for stupid ends. Besides immorally using force now the iPhone will be littered with alt stores where you can only get certain popular apps making the iPhone a nightmare. Those who thought they were so clever in forcing change will be seen to be fools.
- madeofpalk 3y agoAlternate web browsers are allowed on iOS. The rendering engine is a boring, unimportant implementation detail that users do not care for. The success of Chrome for iOS is proof that rendering engine doesn't matter for diversity.
- kibwen 3y ago> The rendering engine is a boring, unimportant implementation detail that users do not care for. Then I'm sure users won't mind when I'm allowed to install my own rendering engine on my own computer, that I own, because I bought it, and, therefore, own it.
- natch 3y agoApple is trying to prevent familial and household abuse where people install invasive software on devices of household members to spy on them or otherwise take away their privacy and freedoms. What solution would you suggest? Just look the other way?
- toyg 3y agoLol, this excuse is a new variation on "think of the children", I had not seen it in the wild before. Apple is just trying to keep support costs low and extractive prices high. Everything else is fanboyish rationalisation.
- madeofpalk 3y agoI'm otherwise indifferent to alternate browsers/engines on iOS, but this is a complete fiction. You made this up just to prop up your personal preference.
- natch 3y agoNope, Apple has been saying this for years.
- ThatPlayer 3y ago
- tinus_hn 3y agoIf only there were phones that did exactly what you wanted
- smoldesu 3y agoThe parent just said the iPhone is what they wanted. Is it hard to believe that someone could both like Apple and look forward to a world with more control over their phone?
- herbst 3y agoIt's hard to believe yes. If people buying decisions won't reflect their believes the market has no reason to change.
- smoldesu 3y agoIf people's buying decisions aren't impacted by your belief, the market is stuck in a monopoly position. Remember Carnegie steel?
- tinus_hn 3y agoIt’s not hard to believe someone would like to have their cake and eat it too. That doesn’t make it a reasonable demand though. The parents say the iPhone is what they want and that is because the iPhone is the phone you can’t accidentally break by installing alternative stores or apps or making the wrong settings. If Apple is forced to allow alternative stores, apps and settings that can break the system, the iPhone is no longer the phone they wanted.
- smoldesu 3y ago> If Apple is forced to allow alternative stores [...] the iPhone is no longer the phone they wanted. I just re-read it and couldn't find the part where they said that. Do you have a direct citation from the parent, or are you just floating a guess to support your opinion?
- quickco 3y ago> iOS is a fantastic operating system. iPhone and iPad are stellar hardware with brilliant physical UX. Apple Watch is leagues beyond anything else in its class. I will keep buying Apple stuff until I can't anymore. People want Apple’s quality, reliability and performance, but also want no restrictions so they can run any app and install anything. Those things aren’t compatible. E.g., Windows and Linux (Desktop distros) don’t have many restrictions. But they can be unreliable.
- jacquesm 3y agoIt's mostly a matter of how much you can throw at it in terms of resources. If there was a five dollar charge for every Linux kernel running you could have all of those and you'd probably still have cash left over.
- LeoNatan25 3y agoYes, let’s ignore the macOS elephant in the room, and jump to Windows and Linux to straw-man an argument. There are “no restrictions”, one can “install anything” and “run any app” on that, and still it is … “reliable”? But actually both Windows and Linux are “reliable” too. Windows is much, much stable in terms of backwards compatibility than macOS and certainly iOS. Linux is so reliable that it runs about 99.9% of the server, appliance and mobile world. Windows has lost its design forte (peaked in Windows 7), but so has Apple’s claim on design. macOS is a mishmash of OK, bad and worse, as is iOS.
- coldtea 3y ago>let’s ignore the macOS elephant in the room The worst experiences on macOS come from companies with enough clout to piss on the standard mechanisms. Installing their BS installers, having "updaters" to run on the background, not shipping a DMG or PKG, asking you to disable the SIP, never bothering to update to newer APIs, not using the Mac App Store, and so on... (and it's usually some of the more expensive software)
- LeoNatan25 3y ago
- faeriechangling 3y ago>you can only run Safari on iOS Apple mandating WebKit is the only thing holding v8 back from a total monopoly, while WebKit itself has no chance of being a monopoly in the forseeable future, so I doubt there's a good anti-competitive case to be made for forcing Apple to stop doing this. It would only accelerate the monopolisation of the browser market if this happened. It would be good for consumers in the short term to allow v8 on iOS but I deeply distrust Google. Breaking the App Store monopoly there is a much stronger case for. There is a security argument for the app store, which I would accept were it not for Apple adding 43% to the purchase price of most paid applications, which is much worse for the end user than the average piece of malware. Not to mention the expenses it imposes on developers, like requiring them to maintain a subscription and buy Apple hardware.
- fredgrott 3y agoclearly you forgot what Google Chrome uses as a code base....Safari....whoops and clearly Google Chrome is somewhat a monopoly on PC devices
- HWR_14 3y agoJust like Apple mandating WebKit is the only thing holding v8/Chromium from a total monopoly, the App Store monopoly is the only thing holding back "use Meta omni-permission store or get cut off from FB/IG/WhatsApp". And then Meta getting most companies to use their store because they'll take 10% and just the data.
- crop_rotation 3y agoBy this kind of logic there is so much bullshit wherever there is consumer choice, and all products should be legislated to be the same, Soviet style.
- stardek 3y agoTo a large degree I think this is more true than not. Putting style aside, it's ridiculous that we don't have basic common designs that "just work". I want a kettle and toaster that are expected to work for decades and can be easily repaired if something goes wrong. There are some reasons to differentiate (e.g. I want shoes that work well and last but people have different foot support needs) but in my ideal world we have shared product functionality and slap stylistic preferences on top of that.
- crop_rotation 3y agoThe problem is once you do that that particular design will stop improving fast. e.g what if phones were legislated to all be open to everything and everyone and standardized at Symbian S40.
- sznio 3y agoI'd actually be for it if it was S60.
- kibwen 3y agoPro-consumer stances are literally communism now?
- crop_rotation 3y agoIt is not a pro consumer stance, it is pro power consumer stance, and anti the layperson consumer stance (who arguably deserve more support).
- kibwen 3y ago
- coldtea 3y agoYou care enough to buy iPhones and iOS, but not enough to buy Android and do all those things.
- emodendroket 3y agoIt turns out in practice I don't make much use of the extra freedoms that Android allows, certainly not to the point that it justifies buying worse hardware
- nunez 3y agoI can love my Apple devices and also wish for features.
- a-user-you-like 3y agoWish for extra features is not the same thing as crush the free market with the arm of government.
- malermeister 3y agoCrushing the free market by... opening a monopoly up to market competition?
- a-user-you-like 3y agoIf Apple was so good that men voluntarily gave them 90% market share you’d call them a monopoly, though it was freely given. Now if they acted immorally, they ought to be reprimanded, but you demanding freedom by coercion is immoral.
- malermeister 3y agoThey are acting immorally by restricting what users can do with devices they own. They are using their market power to coerce users into using their services. The rules were made by representatives voluntarily elected by the people and are an expression of their free will.
- kibwen 3y ago> Fucking good. Seconded. Perpetually baffled by the so-called hackers in all of these threads arguing vociferously against user freedom.
- martimarkov 3y agoYou have freedom to chose the platform.
- Aeolun 3y agoI have the freedom to choose between Google or Apple. That’s not very free at all.
- rTX5CMRXIfFG 3y agolol that isnt going to change even if they allow app sideloading or other web browser engines
- nouveaux 3y agohttps://puri.sm/products/liberty-phone/ https://puri.sm/products/liberty-phone/
- oneplane 3y ago> But a monopoly on core system functions isn't necessary to keep that high bar high. That's an extraordinary statement to make, got any matching evidence? Lots of competitors have been trying for over a decade but nothing has emerged thus far. While I don't believe Apple's current methods and models are the only way that could possibly work, I haven't seen any other successful way either. It's a bit like PKI and E2EE in that way, lots of noise around it (be it Secure Boot, Signal or Boot Guard or something else) but no true alternative. All we get so far is regurgitated ideas with Clipper chip concepts.
- KorematsuFredt 3y agoPlease buy an Android then. Why insist on giving your hard earned money to someone who does not care about your requirements ?
- henry2023 3y agoBecause I like iPhone hardware. It's high quality and lasts. The EU has the right to mandate rules on what corporations sell to its population. No one is forcing Apple to keep selling phones in the EU. They could even create a version of iPhone exclusively for them. Hopefully that hasn't been the case and finally we all have USB-C. Thanks EU. Hopefully they start being much more strict about repairability and openness.
- a-user-you-like 3y agoI’d lol if Apple pulls out of the EU.
- seszett 3y agoThis comment comes every single time the EU asks Apple anything. And yet, every time Apple gives in to the demands of the authorities of the largest market in the world, unsurprisingly (even if Europe is only Apple's second region per revenue, because they lag very much behind Android there). Anyone who thinks Apple will give up about 100 billion dollars of revenue to spite the EU is not being realistic.
- a-user-you-like 3y agoSo far
- criddell 3y agoI wonder if Apple came out with an Android version of iPhone, would that eliminate pressure on them to open iOS?
- KorematsuFredt 3y ago
- sugarkjube 3y ago> I want to run Firefox on my phone. The actual thing Dream on. I use Firefox on my (android) phone and tablet, and it is seriously crippled. Also evolving in the wrong direction. (becoming more crippled)
- hn_throwaway_99 3y agoWhy do you say that. I use Firefox on my Android, specifically because I can install plugins, which I can't do in Chrome. What functionality do you think is "crippled"?
- brokenmachine 3y agoIn what way is android Firefox crippled? I have adblocking and even use Tampermonkey on it.
- dmt0 3y agoAnd in fact you can use ANY extensions if you use Firefox Nightly with Collections https://www.androidpolice.com/install-add-on-extension-mozilla-firefox-android/ https://www.androidpolice.com/install-add-on-extension-mozil...
- Sprocklem 3y agoAlso, firefox on android will be supporting the install of any extension without using nightly and collections very soon.
- Moldoteck 3y agoIdk, I use ff for some years and it's pretty nice, esp with ublock and darkreader and yt background extension
- deleted 3y ago[deleted]
- m463 3y agoI'd like to do (good) things apple doesn't allow, such as owning my phone. I'd like to put in a firewall, I'd like to prevent apps from doing things I don't want them to do, and I'd like to run my own apps (without asking permission).
- ValentineC 3y ago> It's bullshit that you can only run Safari on iOS or that the App Store is the only store you can use. What I really want is an up-to-date browser even if iOS stops being supported on an old phone of mine. (And they seem to be dropping support faster, what with iOS 17 not supporting the iPhone X — introduced in 2017 — without any legitimate hardware reason.) It's ridiculous that Safari and the underlying WebKit engine only get updated with every accompanying iOS release.
- bsimpson 3y agoThat's the biggest problem with Chromebooks (or at least was the last time I used one). The thing becomes useless as soon as it stops getting updates, because your browser doesn't get new features and gets locked out of various parts of the internet as time matches on without you. On any other computer, you can keep the browser up to date long after the OS stops receiving patches.
- robocat 3y ago"Chromebooks will get 10 years of automatic updates": https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=37510865 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=37510865
- bsimpson 3y agoGlad to hear it. Not sure why I'm getting downvoted. The Chromebook Pixel was an awesome home computer until it stopped getting OS updates, which also pinned it on a version of Chrome that got obsoleted from the web. (Unlike IE, nobody cares if something works in old Chrome, and some sites actively reject old versions for security reasons.)
- zuhsetaqi 3y ago> The iOS and iPadOS 16.7 update covers all devices that could run version 16, including older stuff like the iPhone 8, iPhone X, and first-gen iPad Pro that can't be upgraded to version 17. In a couple of months, if precedent holds, newer devices will have to upgrade to keep getting security fixes, while iOS 16 updates will continue to support older devices for at least another year. https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2023/09/ios-16-7-arrives-for-older-iphones-and-people-who-dont-want-to-upgrade/ https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2023/09/ios-16-7-arrives-for... Could you update to iOS 16.7 and check which Safari version it uses? Would be interesting to know. On macOS you can already install the newest Safari version even when running 3 year old macOS.
- MagicMoonlight 3y agoI don’t want Facebook to be able to say that I can’t use Whatsapp unless I install their rootkit store.
- nrabulinski 3y agoThat’s great because with the platform being open you’ll be able to sideload it like any other app :)
- Moldoteck 3y agoIf they do this, maybe not use Wa at all?
- throwaway29645 3y agoI'm not aware of any other alternative client available other than the default Meta one.
- Moldoteck 3y agoI mean, just don't use it. Also there are matrix/element, signal, telegram(a bit worse for security), or you can use Beeper if WA is so mega important
- Manfred 3y agoI personally don’t use WhatsApp because I enjoy it, it’s just the app with the critical mass in my family and friend group.
- Moldoteck 3y agoI've used messenger in the past, after that i've just convinced family/friends to install telegram and chat there. Now I'm thinking abt moving to Signal, so imo, it's not that a big deal, users can migrate/install alternatives. If ppl care, they'll install an app to communicate with you, if they don't, well...
- huytersd 3y agoEverything is stellar because it’s locked down. You can go “hack” on your android and leave the perfectly good status quo as is on the iPhone.
- oblio 3y agoAgreed. I'm going to do what you're saying and also <<vote>> for the EU politicians that just told Apple to <<open up>> :-) How do you like them apples?
- huytersd 3y agoI think EU politicians are great and they come from a good place with the right rationale. I just don’t want it and think it’s a bad idea.
- ojosilva 3y agoJust don't "hack" YOUR iPhone then. I'm even ok with Apple warning on pre-install: "You're about to install software that could disrupt your stellar performance on your iPhone. Proceed? Yes, I understand the risks / No, take me back to the safety of the Apple ecosystem"
- huytersd 3y ago[dead]
- layer8 3y ago> Everything is stellar Many would disagree with that assessment.
- deleted 3y ago[deleted]
- fbn79 3y ago> I want to run Firefox on my phone It's simple, don't buy an iPhone. If you say "But I want an iPhone because is better than any Android", than you have to think that maybe iPhone is better because of the more restrictive rules.
- jahnu 3y agoAnd they don't even properly honour default browser settings for the other WebKit browsers they allow. There are many instances of this; E.g. make Brave your default browser. Then select a word or phrase in a page in this browser, then hit "Search Web" and ... it opens in Safari. Bastards!
- dividedbyzero 3y agoI mean, it is a very neat and easy-to-use platform at this point with relatively good privacy. I hope that doesn't entirely go away and I hope Apple will move some of the restrictions they make in the App Store into the OS. I really like that apps have to disclose what personal data they process and that apps can't just use private APIs for unlimited spying (two things I'm sure Instagram and my bank would love to get around, and I can't realistically do without either). Also hope I won't have to manage 12 different app stores because every large brand will try to force their own. I'd be happy enough with just side-loading apps I write myself, as Apple will doubtless add some scary messaging, so Meta et al won't be able to use it for their apps.
- fingerlocks 3y ago> I'd be happy enough with just side-loading apps I write myself I say this every time this topic comes up. You can side load on your iPhone. Like right now. And it’s easiest if you compile from source. About a quarter of the apps on my phone are side loaded. It’s git-clone-click easy. No jail break required. No App Store restrictions. We can complain about other things, like that you need a Mac (usually), there’s restrictions without a small fee, and you can’t debug other processes. But that’s a separate set of issues.
- dotancohen 3y ago> I want to run Firefox on my phone. The actual thing. With containers and extensions. Let Safari compete on the merits. I want to run AnkiDroid. So I bought a phone that runs it. I don't have an opinion on this EU decision - but what precludes you from purchasing a phone that supports Firefox if that's what you want. Isn't the classical argument that the market would push users like you away from an Apple device, and that market pressure would be the tipping factor in Apple deciding whether or not to allow Firefox?
- whiddershins 3y agoChrome runs on iOS
- whiddershins 3y agoHuh, i never knew it’s webkit all the way down
- whiddershins 3y agoOk, so we kiss a good Genius Bar experience goodbye.