24 ms·

I went to 50 different dentists: almost all gave a different diagnosis (1997)

• sedawk 3y ago
  [dead]
• deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
• bagacrap 3y ago
  [1997]
  • chriscjcj 3y ago
    From the bottom of the article: > This article originally ran in the February 1997 issue of Reader’s Digest. > [Stock photo of people shaking hands] > Originally Published: November 18, 2020 Is the 1997 date a printed issue and the 2020 date an online posting? Weird. Either way it's very old. It would be nice to know if the situation is as bad now as what was portrayed in the article.
• jph 3y ago
  How to add a date to HN title? The post says "This article originally ran in the February 1997 issue of Reader’s Digest."
• siva7 3y ago
  That's extreme but getting different diagnoses isn't unheard of. Always take a second opinion in case of a delayable invasive procedure. You'd be surprised how many times there is an alternative. Medicine is all about probabilities, not an exact science.
  • prepend 3y ago
    This is 50 diagnoses with extreme variance. It’s an issue of too many alternatives and having a hard time choosing the correct path. I don’t think this is a function of medicine but a function of poor ethics in dentistry.
• lacrimacida 3y ago
  Just like car mechanics:)
  • bluescrn 3y ago
    If you take a car to a mechanic, the upper limit anyone will likely pay for repairs is the value of the car. If you take a human into the healthcare system, there is no upper limit.
    • doubled112 3y ago
      A couple of my coworkers were paying up to the limit of their insurance and just leaving the rest. I think that’s probably even worse.
• kowalej 3y ago
  CBC Marketplace in Canada has done a couple similar assessments over the years where they have someone go to different dentists after an initial diagnosis by independent experts. They saw basically the same thing as this article, huge differences in opinions where clearly some practices were trying to scam money by doing unnecessary work. This is why I drive over an hour to visit my same dentist after moving house, they guy only does work if it is actually in my best interest.
• PaulHoule 3y ago
  When I first went to Ithaca I went to a quack dentist who charged me a lot for unnecessary diagnostics. I did not see a dentist for two years, then I got a referral to my current dentist where the whole family gets a cleaning twice a year. My wife thinks the exam with the dentist after seeing the hygienist is a scam, I see the dentist only if there is evidence of a problem. In that time I got a referral to extract one of my rear teeth (could have gotten an implant but decided against it.). My dentist gave me recommendations for sensitive teeth (saltpeter toothpaste and an electric toothbrush which was cheap when I got one that uses rechargeable AA’s) and a brace for tooth grinding which focalized my TMJ symptoms (shoulder, back, neck pain and headaches) to something which is somewhat annoying occasionally. I am satisfied. I hear though that a lot of dentists get into scams like Amway and Scientology.
  • evmar 3y ago
    (Wife is a dentist.) There are a lot of immoral people out there, but "see the dentist only if there is evidence of a problem" is a bad strategy. Tooth decay is a slow process and the treatments slowly ramp up in invasiveness: when it's minor you can use sealant (like painting over it), if it progresses you get a filling (with some minor drilling), if that progresses you get a root canal (drilling out the whole nerve and replacing the bulk of the tooth). You may only reach the threshold of feeling pain at the point of needing a root canal when it can be preventable earlier. (I do suspect hygienists are capable of spotting most of this but my impression is they're not licensed to diagnose.)
• kwanbix 3y ago
  What I don't understand is why dentist work is not better regulated and covered by health. I can get a heart operation covered but if I have to do an implant I have to pay for it. I mean, I understand if you charged me something as a punishment (lets say 100/200 dollars), but I don't get why is not covered. We can even make it an additional monthly payment or something. But it is crazy that there is no coverage for most things, as if one could go on with his life without teeth. Side Story: in my home country, Argentina, you can get national or imported screws/implants. The difference for doing one over the other is like 3 times. So let's say 500 dollars vs 1500 dollars (those are not the actual number), but I am friendish with a dentist, and he told me that the actual difference between a national vs imported screen is no more than 50 dollars.
  • OfSanguineFire 3y ago
    Dental work beyond tooth extraction is generally not covered by health because it is viewed as a cosmetic procedure. From a purely health perspective, a person can go on with their lives without teeth by installing dentures, and millions of people do so.
    • kwanbix 3y ago
      But that is not the truth. The impact in your life if you lose a tooth, and you cannot replace it, is horrible. Mentally it could have much more impact that many things that are covered.
  • zeroonetwothree 3y ago
    Wouldn’t covering it more just exacerbate the problem of overcharging and doing unnecessary work? Not sure this really helps. The real problem is that dentists business model assumes they will do a lot of restorative work but people’s dental health has improved so it’s far less necessary than before.
    • kwanbix 3y ago
      You should justify the need and you can be audited. Also, I do a tooth cleaning, 1 hour work, 100 euros. I do an implant, also 3 hours of work. 1800 euros. What is the reason? Wouldn't make more sense to do 10 implants at 800 than do 1 or 2 at 1800? I don't get it. One of the dentists I used to go told me that he was no longer doing implants because people won't pay for them. Of course! If it is a full minimum salary for 3/6 hour of work. Charge something reasonable and people would do it. We are in 2023, a dental implant can no longer be considered a luxury. It is crazy.
• freitzkriesler2 3y ago
  Man I had a really serious overbite as a kid and had a lot of orthodontia work done. I'm obsessive with my teeth now because of it. I'm also the child of doctors and coincidentally, when you're the child of medical professionals, other medical professionals treat you very very well. I had stellar dentists up until I moved to a new city and had my first experience with a bad dentist. Never again. Now I'm old enough to know better and here's my advice: brush and floss once a day before bed. Don't eat anything after you do so. If you want to get rid of "morning mouth", rinse your mouth using diluted hydrogen peroxide. Put a very gentle amount of pressure on the teeth using the brush. You don't need to scrub them. If you can get a descaling from a dentist, take advantage of it. Ask the hygienist to use a local numbing agent on your teeth before cleaning (the gel not the injection). They'll know what this is. It makes the descaling far less painful and sort of pleasant. When it comes to procedures like crowns or wisdom teeth, only deal with it if there is pain. I had my wisdom teeth removed and I disagree that it was medically necessary. They would have come in normally. And if you know a medical professional, ask them who their doctor is and then ask that doctor who their dentist/doctor/eye doctor/etc is. Go to the medical professional other medical professionals go to if your insurance allows for it. Good luck fellow HN friends.
  • unshavedyak 3y ago
    > I had stellar dentists up until I moved to a new city and had my first experience with a bad dentist. Never again. Is the only way to determine a bad dentist by going to many? I am in need of lots of work, but the thought of going to a ton of car-salesman-esque "medical professionals" to pick the correct one .. is terrifying.
    • cudgy 3y ago
      The above advice seems sound. Find out who your doctor(s) use as their dentist. Ask other people too like neighbors, coworkers, and friends. Google Reviews can be helpful in some cases like when there are a reasonable number of reviews from legitimate looking reviewers. Be wary of pushy dentists that are unwilling to treat you unless you agree to their “plan”. I once was told by a dentist as a new patient that they would not perform a standard cleaning until they could do a more extensive, more expensive, not covered by insurance cleaning. Immediately left that office and found another dentist. Turns out I did not need that cleaning.
• rossdavidh 3y ago
  At the very end of the article: "This article originally ran in the February 1997 issue of Reader’s Digest." Surely this should be noted in the HN title?
  • verisimi 3y ago
    Dentistry has improved in leaps and bounds since 1997 - as the monetary incentive to over-prescribe treatments has now gone, right? /s
    • rossdavidh 3y ago
      Yeah, agreed, I totally don't believe this problem has gone away. In fact, it is still a noteworthy article for the very reason that it was 26 years ago but sounds like it could have happened yesterday. But, it should be noted in the HN title.
    • superkuh 3y ago
      The current trend is for the remaining independent dentist (vets, pharmcies, etc) practices to be bought up by international private equity and enshittified.
  • MattRix 3y ago
    Hah, that explains why all the quoted prices seem low compared to what they are now.
    • gcanyon 3y ago
      Yeah, I read through this thinking "what the heck!" regarding the low prices.
  • mingus88 3y ago
    I caught that too…after I had already shared this with my wife But it still feels relevant. I had a dentist that wanted to drill cavities out with every visit, regardless of how often I flossed and brushed Been to four dentists since and haven’t been told anything bad at all. There absolutely still exist dentists who are cashing in on us.
• kevinmchugh 3y ago
  Another read on dental overdiagnosis and outright fraud: https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2019/05/the-trouble-with-dentistry/586039/ https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2019/05/the-tro...
  • jzl 3y ago
    Beat me to it. This is a superb article and I highly recommend that everyone read it in full.
  • raptor99 3y ago
    https://archive.is/tADVR https://archive.is/tADVR
• shipscode 3y ago
  There’s a reason that the dentistry model is Drill, Fill, and Bill.
• prepend 3y ago
  This is the one place I like insurance because it at least gives some cost conscious perspective to proposed procedures. My insurance sucks but at least it’s useful that insurance considers optional what my dentist says is essential. For example, my dentist only does tooth colored fillings and my insurance doesn’t cover them. My dentist says the covered ones are unsafe. It’s a weird situation. My last dentist said I needed an “emergency crown” because my tooth would shatter at any moment. It was $3000. My insurance covered $600. The dentist said it was because my insurance was terrible. Another dentist said the crown was optional and would cost $1800. That’s almost a 100% price difference. And my most recent dentist says I don’t need a crown at all and it’s been two years since the “emergency.” I’m not sure what’s going on, but of course it’s impossible to compare prices when choosing dentists and I don’t trust new dentists at all.
  • pryelluw 3y ago
    It’s at the point where I’m saving up to get my dental work in Mexico or Colombia. There’s no point of doing it in the states. I paid $6k for one implant. Ridiculous.
  • packetlost 3y ago
    The thing about teeth and crowns is, it's fine until it isn't. I've actually had a molar collapse while eating almonds. It's honestly more traumatic than you'd think. Anyways, as a result I did a bunch of research and it turns out that crowns are important for reducing further damage to the root. A split down the the root is it for a tooth, and prosthetics are not a great replacement. My dentist gave me a price breakdown between extraction or root canal and crown both as valid options. Just because they say it's optional doesn't mean they're trying to price gouge you (though clearly the former was).
    • prepend 3y ago
      I understand how crowns work. My issue is that one dentist thought it was an emergency and it obviously isn’t. It’s not the optionality, it’s that one said it was not optional. And that one dentist charged $3000 and one $1800. And they don’t have options. That is the only price they charge.
• bluescrn 3y ago
  'While you've got good insurance, we can upgrade all your teeth now, before they get bad'? There may be stereotypes about the British having bad teeth, but I've never had a dentist try to milk my wallet like that despite a poor diet having done a fair bit of damage over the years. Dentistry here seems much more about doing the minimum necessary work to save teeth and relieve pain. The thought of getting crowns done en-masse is terrifying, I've only had one done, and it wasn't a fun experience - it's something I see as a last resort to save a tooth, certainly not something I'd want to go through for cosmetic improvements.
  • unshavedyak 3y ago
    > I've only had one done, and it wasn't a fun experience - it's something I see as a last resort to save a tooth, certainly not something I'd want to go through for cosmetic improvements. What was "unfun" about it? I'm familiar with what they are, but not the pain-points (in the non-literal sense lol) of getting them.
    • doubled112 3y ago
      For me at least, I’ve had freezing fail many times. Once they begin, I believe you’re pretty much stuck there until the dentist is done, and that’s a lot of drilling. Not looking forward to ever needing anything like that.
      • ttymck 3y ago
        What is freezing? Anesthetic?
        • doubled112 3y ago
          Yes
    • bluescrn 3y ago
      In my case, it was just discomfort rather than pain, the worst bit was having a metal 'temporary crown' that felt/tasted uncomfortable and wouldn't stay in place over the mostly-drilled-away tooth for a week or more while the crown was being manufactured. And I couldn't stop myself from constantly probing it with my tongue. (This was over a decade ago, maybe the process is quicker, or they have better temporary crowns?) But the tooth had had a root canal done some years before the crown, so there was no nerve to cause pain when/after much of the tooth was drilled away to prepare for the crown. Not sure what the process is if the tooth is healthier/more sensitive to begin with. End result is good though. Just not something I'd choose to go through it if was mostly cosmetic rather than to save a tooth.
• evmar 3y ago
  My wife was shocked to learn in dental school how many people were there focused on the money. From her experience I learned that dentistry in particular is a profession that has a low investment / high payoff ratio. Relative to medical school dental school is easier to get into and shorter, and unscrupulous dentists can extract a lot of money out of patients. PS: I feel compelled to share her best advice re oral hygiene: "You only need to floss the teeth you want to keep."
  • fakedang 3y ago
    Reminds me of that argument scene between Capt. Holt and the dentist from Brooklyn 99.
  • whatever1 3y ago
    Ok sample of N = 1, but here it goes. Flossing daily was the single thing that imroved my dental hygiene more than anything else. Brushing, mouthwash, fluoride treatment, gum laser treatment, regular dentist visits, nothing worked. Still had bleeding gum, pain here and there, bad smell, unstopabble tooth decay. In my mid 20-s I started flossing daily (even multiple times when I feel like food is stuck). Really my mouth problems all went away. I wish someone had shown me in an earlier age the benefits. I would have saved a lot of my teeth.
    • toxik 3y ago
      Have you tried a waterpik? Considering an investment there myself.
      • leviathant 3y ago
        My parents had a Waterpik in the 80s - it was okay, I guess, but my go-to are Plackers, have been for years. I can get to every little nook and cranny with those things. Ultimately, whatever you're using, I think the important part is that you're doing it daily, and being thorough.
      • tiahura 3y ago
        Got one a year ago. They seem effective, however they make a huge mess - it’s a pressure washer in your bathroom.
• ravenstine 3y ago
  There's a lot of perverse incentives baked into dentistry. This is true of allopathic medicine was well, though I think it can be more difficult for someone to dispute a diagnosis from a dentist; who are you to say that little dot on your X-ray isn't serious enough to be drilled? It wouldn't surprise me if there are many fill-n-drill dentists out there. I knew people whose oral hygiene and diets were far worse than mine and yet they almost never were told they had cavities, and then there were those who ate properly who have had root canals and crowns. In my experience, and in my own opinion, the industry of dentistry would be nowhere near as necessary as it currently is if people largely gave up consuming too much carbohydrates and sugar, which feed the bacteria that are ultimately the root cause of tooth decay. Acidification of saliva is of course an issue as well, but I think the whole "drinking cola will rot your teeth" thing is an exaggeration and a sort of red herring. It's not the soda per se, or so much the acidity of carbonated water, but the fact that you're feeding bacteria which colonize in the crevices and pores of your teeth, forming biofilm, creating isolated pockets of acid that wear holes in teeth. If it was all about exogenous acid, then the entire tooth would be rotting evenly, but that's usually not what you see. My teeth aren't perfect. In fact, there's some decay that I've let sit there for nearly two decades now. Ever since I cut sugar from my regular diet, any caries I had either reversed (when extremely early) or stopped progressing. I do plan on seeing a dentist soon to actually address the decay, because it's silly to leave it there, but I'm confident that I otherwise stopped it in its tracks. My gums don't bleed, and I've seen no meaningful changes to my teeth in all that time. If my hypothesis is correct, then there's a real conundrum because the most affordable food available to people also tends to promote more tooth decay; dentistry largely exists to compensate for the fact that the cheapest available energy for humans comes with negative side effects.
  • pests 3y ago
    I had a rough life when I was younger. I went to the dentist maybe 7-10 years ago and they told me they wanted to pull over 10 teeth. Probably closer to 14. I was shocked and shaken. They were even talking dentures. I couldn't believe I was going to be basically toothless. I never went back and it ored dentistry for years. I just switched dentists last week. One cavity and they want to fix an old crown. I never had one of those teeth pulled.
• CommieBobDole 3y ago
  I've posted this before, but I went to a new dentist one time and though I'd never had a cavity, the new dentist said I had nine, some of which were pretty bad and needed immediate treatment lest they require a root canal. I didn't have any money or dental insurance at the time, so I didn't go back and just worried about it a lot for a while. That was twenty-five years ago. Haven't been to a dentist since. My teeth are fine, and always have been. Funny story about the 'no cavities' thing - when I was maybe 12 I went to a new dentist who found a cavity in a molar, drilled it out, and filled it with some sort of 'invisible' polymer filling and charged a whole bunch of money for it. Next dentist I went to, I mentioned the cavity and he said nobody had drilled on the tooth and there was no sign of a cavity or a filling of any type there. Some years later, I was reading somewhere online and found out that the dentist who "filled" the "cavity" was a subscriber to a dental practice management program run by the Church of Scientology that, in part, taught that it was OK to rip off patients who weren't Scientologists. A few years after that, the dentist got arrested for molesting children and is probably still in prison.
  • j45 3y ago
    What’s the saying.. At every meeting something is sold, either a reason why you’re buying, or a reason why you’re not buying.
  • leoqa 3y ago
    I had a similar experience, got up sold on more frequent cleanings and they always found something to iterate on. I took their offer once to fill a “potential infection” and then recognized the pattern. They probably legitimately think the tooth may decay further - it probably won’t and you probably don’t need pre-emptive correction but they make more money and “fix” the problem for you so they may not see the ethical issue.
    • microtonal 3y ago
      Frequent cleanings are nice though. As an avid tea drinker it's nice to have white teeth again once or twice a year. The insurance covers most of the cost, so ¯\_(ツ)_/¯.
• PointyFluff 3y ago
  [dead]
• prmph 3y ago
  Does anyone know the best way to get proper diagnostics care for a possible tooth fracture without being given the run around and ripped off by dentists? Whilst extracting my last wisdom tooth (in the US) the dentist must have made a bad mistake, because right after the procedure I couldn't bite down properly on the affected side on my mouth. I went for years with this situation, and started experiencing occasional pain on that side. Whilst a teaching assistant the the University of Washington (UW), I used to visit UW Medicine for faculty, telling the dentists that I suspected a fracture (based on my research). However they would invariably just throw me off, claiming it was very hard to identify such cracks, it might not actually be a crack, etc. Eventually I lost that tooth, almost certainly due to the widening crack, as I suspected. Now back home in Ghana, another tooth seems weak when eating certain very hard foods, and again I suspect a crack. Again, dentists in general seem unwilling to really address it, halfheartedly trying various diagnostic procedures that do not actually uncover the problem. One was quick to propose a root canal, which seemed weird to me as the first line option to address something like that. This dentist describes himself as a root-canal specialist, and it's not a stretch to assume that he sees every dental problem in terms of root canals. Another dentist suggested it was a small cavity, and did her drill and fill routine, which has done nothing at all to alleviate the problem. Yest another dentist claims I need some tooth tissue filed away to correct the problem. So now I'm not sure what to do. It seems cracks are hard to identify; I'm not sure why dental imaging cannot help much here. I'd like to know if there are better options than dealing with lazy dentists who just want your money.
  • deleted 3y ago
    [deleted]
• thedanbob 3y ago
  If anyone is in my situation where you need dental work but can't afford it and have some time/availability, see if there's a dental college nearby that has a student care program. The one I'm going to is costing me about 40% of the quote I got from a regular dentist for the same work. (The downside is it takes a lot longer.)
  • esafak 3y ago
    But don't sign up for any experimental procedures that they want to test on you. Also, be prepared for more pain since they're inexperienced.
• ustamills 3y ago
  I know my comment is anecdotal but for me it's relevant. I'm 60 years old. Up until about 25 I just listened to dentists. They drill-and-fill and I went along. No longer. In 35 years I've had one problem. I broke a tooth biting on a hard seed in some Indian food. I got a crown for that. A few years later the crown came off. I haven't bothered getting it replaced. I don't have tooth pain. My teeth have not shifted. I still eat what I want. I'm careful with Indian food. :) My takeaway? I'm not seeing the dentist until I'm in pain or something breaks. No one is drilling on X-ray shadows again.
  • shagie 3y ago
    Setting aside the drilling on shadows... There are studies that link gum disease to dementia. https://www.nia.nih.gov/news/large-study-links-gum-disease-dementia https://www.nia.nih.gov/news/large-study-links-gum-disease-d... > The mouth is home to about 700 species of bacteria, including those that can cause periodontal (gum) disease. A recent analysis led by NIA scientists suggests that bacteria that cause gum disease are also associated with the development of Alzheimer’s disease and related dementias, especially vascular dementia. The results were reported in the Journal of Alzheimer’s Disease. Going to the dentist for cleaning may be a good thing for those with less than ideal dental hygiene habits - even if no suggestions of cavities are ever drilled.
    • appplication 3y ago
      I go for a cleaning at least twice a year even though I brush thoroughly. The dentist will always be able of clear out plaque you can’t. That said, there might not be much reason to listen to them beyond that.
      • lost_tourist 3y ago
        Yeah no way you don't go to the dentist for 20 years and not have a few millimeter thick worth of plaque on plaque. I brush and floss before I go to bed and go to the dentist every 9 months. I haven't had a cavity since I was 15 and my sweet tooth kind of faded out after that for some reason.
• Waterluvian 3y ago
  My son when 3 had a fall and a few teeth were bent. Went to our local dentist who mostly had a wait and see opinion. But then calls a day later and says they’ve decided they should just come out. Two top front teeth. Would have no top front teeth for years. I went into engineer mode and while I acknowledged I didn’t have domain expertise, I asked questions and probed the whole situation. Very unsatisfactory, meandering answers. This was a deeply distressing experience. For the first time ever I did the “call in a personal favour” thing and asked my dad to reach out a family friend, a former cosmetic dentist and former head of the province’s dental association for a second opinion. He saw my son a few hours later and he was just livid about the diagnosis. That it was possible they’d have to come out but it’s impossible to know this for at least a few more weeks or more. In a few months the teeth returned 100% to normal and firmed right up as the ligaments healed. I’m not a conspiracy nut. I believe in listening to experts (but ultimately making an informed decision). I believe in modern medicine. But that experience shook me and forever changed my trust in the dental industry. My feeling is that the nature of dentistry leaves a lot of room for subjectivity and COVID left a lot of dental chairs empty.
  • nazka 3y ago
    Thank you to share you story. Well no need to go into conspiracy it’s what is happening and you can see it in our field. Look at all the Oracle consultants out there. :) I would never recommend Oracle for anything. But how can a non tech guy know? All the non tech companies use it, even the top 500… So even more impossible to see that as a non tech guy. I am sure you came across many staff engineers with +10 years of exp that will give weird ideas too and architecture decisions, tech choice etc.. it’s everywhere not just for dentists.
  • xyzelement 3y ago
    Good for you figuring this out. I always point out to my wife that an expert with a financial benefit in the advice they are giving you is potentially more dangerous than an amateur. If you are a dentist, "more dentistry" is likely to resonate with them as a solution, especially if that means they charge for doing the work. No different than if you ask a software developer if you should hire them to automate some process. A true pro may say "nah it's not worth it for you" but that's rare... It's fashionable to dunk on folks who "do their own research" but I admire that more than those who are proud of unquestionably taking direction from vested parties.
• rthfnbbgedfgery 3y ago
  (Throwaway account) I can only say, avoid dental chains at all costs and only go to trusted dentist owned clinics if possible. I'm from EU and I got a yearly review + professional cleaning in a chain for my first job more than 15 years ago. The first time I used it they diagnosed me 4 or 5 caries that needed treatment, they said it was just a "beginning" but that it should be treated soon. I ignored it and left it untreated for 1 year. My family never had problems with caries and before that time I was going to a public dentist who never identified any problem. Next year I used the professional cleaning again but I went to a different clinic. They identified again 4 caries but in completely different teeth! Since that day I don-t trust any dentist that need an insurance to get patients or is managed by a profit-oriented chain. Note that in my country a lot of dentists don't work with insurance but that might not be the case in other places. It's not like the dentists shouldn't earn good money, but they the ones that have their own clinic earn more than enough to not have to scam their patients. And even these can be greedy, but at least they are not pushed by a manager with monthly goals, so the chances are lower. Fast-forward I met my now wife who is actually a dentist. 10 years later after my fake 5 caries she didn't find any. When she finished her studies, she had to work for a few chains as well. What she saw there is terrifying. The 1st job she was fired after 4 days because she was asking for autoclave sterilized material for every patient. First they tried to push back saying that ultrasound and chemical was enough, but she was having any of it. Later the same week, she had a family with 3 kids, and she also requested sterilized tools for each of the 5 patients. They were telling her that sharing tools with the same family is totally fine. She was ready to leave the job the next day but they were faster and fired her. I guess she was starting to raise ideas to the young assistants. After that she still worked in a few more places before she could find the right family owned clinic first and later start her own clinic. During this period, she saw multiple malpractices and the authorities are not checking anything until somebody is badly hurt: Non-graduated dentists doing full-licensed dentist procedures, low quality materials and tools from Aliexpress that shouldn't be used for any medical procedure, patients coming from other clinics where after checking the history of x-rays she could see the dentist "planted" the root canal treatment (difficult to 100% proof of course), dentists invoicing for things that they didn't really do, and the list goes on... Just please, be very careful when choosing your dentist. Some people can save tons of money and a lot of teeth if they have a knowledgeable and honest dentist.
• moomoo11 3y ago
  Doctors are just people. I personally don’t trust a single one and why I always get multiple opinions. The sooner they’re replaced by automation that’s far superior in terms of accuracy and diagnosis, the better. Just a hundred years ago doctors were doing wack shit like chopping off limbs and giving people toxins or cocaine. Maybe the cocaine isn’t so bad. Today they give us SSRIs and opioids. They are given far too much credit imo when they’re just mechanics. Just like you can get into an accident because brakes failed or something and you’re left with pain and suffering or you die. I’ve had a misdiagnosis before. It has left me with continued pain and I do thank the second doctor who realized the former doctors mistake and did his best to make me as whole as possible. I don’t trust doctors. And I don’t think that highly of them either.
  • kashunstva 3y ago
    > The sooner they’re replaced by automation that’s far superior in terms of accuracy and diagnosis, the better. I assume you are not referring to the procedural specialties of medicine. My spouse does complex aortic surgery; I don’t think most of her patients would consent to seeing her replaced by a robot. But who knows, techno-dystopias have a strange appeal for some.
  • thenerdhead 3y ago
    The reputation of these noble jobs are going straight out the window. The same that happened to "an honest mechanic" when that used to be a thing. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iatrogenesis https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iatrogenesis is absolutely a thing and is likely how many of these industries work. The excess activity causes more problems for others to solve.
  • esafak 3y ago
    Would a robot change much? The company that makes or leases it is still going to make more money when it is used.
• jeffmcmahan 3y ago
  Took my 7 year old daughter to a dentist. 8 cavities. Gotta get em right away! Went to another one. All good - zero cavities. Many dentists are criminals willing to drill holes in children's teeth in order fraudulently take your money. She's now 15. Never had a cavity ever.
  • hahamaster 3y ago
    I think the majority of these people are despicable individuals who damage children's teeth for profit. But some are just plain incompetent. My son doesn't have a single cavity but there were cases when dentists at his school (who visit once every few months) "detected" cavities which were later proven to be simple food stains.
  • fma 3y ago
    Been taking my 2 daughters to a pediatric dentist since they started about to have teeth. Our eldest had cavities, which we could visually see. We were very careful with the youngest, brushing and flossing more. And well, she has even MORE cavities. They are between the teeth - which I guess, well, trust the experts. The fillings expensive aren't that expensive as dental insurance covers it. Whats expensive is the nitrox oxide which the kids require because they can't sit still. Or maybe the dentist isn't good at her job and can't do it without it. This is 100% out of pocket. Insurance doesn't cover it. and the dentist can set whatever the price they want. This costs $100. The kids for sure, fight and the dentist is in there trying to get them to open their mouth. Well, my youngest had 5 cavities, and only 2 got filled because of her small mouth and not comfortable. You know what that means...more money to shell out because now she needs sedation. And that's $400, for a little drink that's like "Benadryl" as the dentist said...and it barely worked. The last filling couldn't be filled. If we were more knowledgeable we would have just given her melatonin before the first procedure as that's more effective in calming her. Oh and I found out the dentist is closed on Fridays. Must be nice to be able to charge so much you can pay yourself, staff the needed salaries and only work 4 days.
• kentonv 3y ago
  A couple years ago my dentist sold her practice to a new dentist. Before I had an appointment with the new dentist, my wife had an appointment, and he told her she had gum disease with bone loss and needed a deep cleaning and to go on a "periodontal schedule" where she would have to come in every three months instead of six. (Note: My wife and I have different last names and separate insurance, so he wouldn't have known we're related.) When I went in, the hygenist measured my pocket depths, and I noticed she seemed to be adding 1-3mm to what I remembered the measurements being every time I had that done in the past. The dentist then came in and gave me what sounded like a rehearsed speech concluding in the same diagnosis he had given my wife. I told him I'd like to think about it and could he please send me the records they based this on. They proceeded to rush me out of the office, outright refusing to do the regular cleaning. I went to another dentist and only told her I left my previous dentist because he gave me bad vibes. She started off with the pocket measurements which were magically back to normal! She said my teeth looked great. Then she asked about my previous dentist and I told her what happened. She said: "I suspected it was something like that." So... yeah... what an industry... ETA: Although now in my paranoia I wonder if the new dentist somehow knew the previous dentist's diagnosis and realized the way to keep me as a customer would be to tell me they were wrong. But they shouldn't be able to get my past records unless I authorize it, right?
  • kvmet 3y ago
    Many dentists ago for me but they got a new contraption that could measure enamel thickness. They waved this wand around in my mouth and told me that I was in need of (4) fillings. Now I have always had thin enamel so it's not unusual to need some fillings but I didn't trust this process at all so I told them I'd mull it over and call back. Waited 6 months for next cleaning and mysteriously I didn't need any fillings at all despite having no work done. I don't think it is necessarily done intentionally, but it's good to be a tiny bit skeptical especially when new factors are involved.
    • sjackso 3y ago
      Similar experience here. I went to a new dentist who had one of those machines and he told me I needed at least nine fillings. I declined and found someone else. Over 16 years and multiple moves/new dentists since then, maybe three of those teeth have actually needed fillings.
• ourmandave 3y ago
  I remember a story of a fraudulent dental service that were telling parents they needed all their children's baby teeth pulled. They were finally busted because parents got second opinions. I googled trying to find it and pulled up a bunch of other stories of dentists performing unnecessary procedures on children to defraud medicaid. F'ing monsters.
• moshegramovsky 3y ago
  I eventually found a great dentist. The first time I went to his office, it was extremely obvious that he was a Christian. Did that make me trust him more? Yes it sure did, but only because he was young. I would also trust an Orthodox Jewish dentist, but there aren't any here in Seattle that I can find. If I needed a lot of really expensive work, I would probably just go to a high end place in Mexico.
  • kashunstva 3y ago
    I don’t understand how the religious inclinations of the dentist have anything to do with their trustworthiness in terms of their diagnoses and treatment recommendations.
    • ilaksh 3y ago
      Because many dentists are fraudulent. Morality is a big part of many religious doctrines. So they might be less likely to lie about unneeded procedures. But overall I agree that it's not in any way something you could rely on.
    • moshegramovsky 3y ago
      Note that I am not religious. The last religious thing I did was my bar mitzvah, which was like 35 years ago. I felt like my dentist was morally upstanding.
  • carabiner 3y ago
    I've used the same dentist in Bellevue for 4 years and he's never had me do anything besides my 2x a year cleanings. Never tried to sell me anything but tells me to floss. He's not noticeably Christian.
• karaterobot 3y ago
  > Others wanted ten, 20, even 50 times that amount. I am excited to see an article using AP style. Maybe it's because it's from 1997, back when there were copy editors.
• EMM_386 3y ago
  I've been told I'd have to have my wisdom teeth extracted by every dentist I've seen. Over 10 of them as I've moved around. Oral surgeons saying the same thing. The first one to recommend this was 35 years ago. I still have them, and the last dentist I saw says they are in good shape. The first one ever to tell me this. I've never had an issue with them. Go figure.
  • ilaksh 3y ago
    I had a problem with a single wisdom tooth (around 12 years ago? don't remember). I don't remember but I think it was starting to be impacted or something. It was quite sore and obviously needed to be removed. I don't remember the cost but it was something I could just manage to afford at the time (probably around $500 or something including the cleaning). The dentist said I really needed to have the other three removed also. I can't remember why exactly they claimed I needed to do that. But it ballooned the cost up well over $1000 (maybe $1500, don't remember). When I said no the second time, they had the very pretty receptionist (/model?) come into the room and sit right next time me and explain again why I needed to have them out. All told, I had to explain at least three times how I was definitely too broke to consider removing the other teeth. They didn't believe me and even asked again what my job was or something (was a low-paying job). The other wisdom teeth never caused a problem like that one I had removed. Or any other problem that I am aware of. I actually haven't been to the dentist since. Not aware of any teeth falling out or anything obvious like pain. I think it would be good to get them cleaned one of these days though.
  • matteoraso 3y ago
    This one rings hard for me. My grandmother had a perfectly good wisdom tooth removed a few months ago, and it got horribly infected. Makes me angry thinking about it. I've also had dentists want to pull my wisdom teeth as well, which seems to just be a form of superstition for them.
• ridiculous_fish 3y ago
  What are some techniques to find dentists who do not engage in such aggressive over-treatments? Asking friends for recommendations is the best approach I've found - are there others?
  • JulieCat757 3y ago
    [flagged]
• fferen 3y ago
  My tentative advice would be to find the one with the best reviews. Only pay attention to the lowest reviews, even a few 1-stars are informative. My story: I brush and floss every single day. At my regular checkup, the dentist measured 2-5mm gum depths, and insisted on doing a deep cleaning, which involves anesthesia and multiple visits. I argued that the 5mm depths were borderline, and could very well be 4mm with measurement error. (They did seem to be pushing rather hard.) They also pointed out some tiny supposed "pockets" on the X-ray that looked like just imaging blur or something. Feeling very suspicious, I left, and found another dentist with, surprisingly, zero bad reviews on Yelp. They measured 2-4mm gum depths, and did a much less aggressive cleaning.
• akakakak677 3y ago
  I spent 25 years with face pain. Saw more than 50 doctors in my lifetime. Finally, by chance, I was referred to a dentist that diagnosed me with TMJ. I'm wearing a plaque (or whatever it's called) and have zero pain now. I'm done all kinds of exams you can think of and it was just me pushing my teeth all the time.
• lost_tourist 3y ago
  This was my experience. I had been going to a dentist around 8 years. Regular cleanings, a couple of fillings. Then they got a new hygienists who was -very- judgmental, I was of course like WTF. Then my dentist comes does some hmmms and ohhhhhs and suddenly I need root clean (forget the name exactly) and 5 crowns. This was mind you 6 months after my last cleaning/x-ray. Naturally I was suspicious and told them "I'll call and schedule with you, work is crazy". I then go to another dentist, and he says my teeth looked great, and he'd like to take out one wisdom tooth for $120 because it was awfully out of place. So I switched and have been happy with him for a few years now.
• seventytwo 3y ago
  This article is originally published in 1997, btw.
• Invictus0 3y ago
  (1997)
• avodonosov 3y ago
  I believe for a long time already, that for any serious medical question it's better to hear at least 3 doctors. Visited several dentists recently, all gave me different diagnosis and recommendations. My mother also visited four dentists recently, all gave her different recommendations. When I say different, there is overlap between them. But also a significant difference. That's not only dentists. I have several examples in my family when non-dentist doctors give directly opposite opinions. Also a well known fact: surgeons always recommend to cut.
• gooseyman 3y ago
  This article was run in 1997. It reads exactly like what a modern dental experience is. If dentists want to start drilling, capping, or pulling. Go get a second opinion. I was referred to the Otho within my dentists office to look at my wisdom teeth. I was not in pain, they weren’t impacted, instead I was told “It’s a standard practice just to check.” It was supposed to be a consultation, but the ortho wanted to rip them out right then and there. He was frustrated at my insistence that we understand the total cost after insurance. I was awake for the procedure, local anesthetic only. My dentist at the next visit looked at my X-rays and asked why I got my wisdom teeth out. The ortho was no longer with them. Good riddance
  • criddell 3y ago
    > get a second opinion This guy got 50 opinions and 12 of the dentists gave reasonable treatment plans. At least one dentist said there was nothing wrong. I’m not sure two opinions is enough really.
    • nmz 3y ago
      If anything it seems the only ones to trust are the students.
• adamredwoods 3y ago
  I have many dentist anecdotes (I switch dentists often), and generally don't believe what dentists tell me. My first suspicion began when one told me to floss more, so I flossed daily for an entire year. When I went back in after six months, they told me to floss more. I told then I had flossed daily for an entire year and they did not believe me. I went to another dentist and they were impressed by my teeth from my flossing! I was more happy with the second dentist for noticing! I had another one tell me I had a 'dead' tooth and it needed extraction as it would rot my mouth. I saw a different dentist and I asked about my 'dead' tooth. They responded I had no dead teeth and weren't sure what I was referring to. Another anecdote: My child's teeth were coming in crooked, and had some late adult teeth. The first orthodontist suggested a spreader (a common procedure where your palate is split and made wider), followed by braces. The second said that they could also suggest an alternative, with only braces. End result-- the dentists that give options are the better ones (IMO). If they give only one option, I am cautious. In general, get a second opinion.
  • deleted 3y ago
    [deleted]
  • TheFreim 3y ago
    > My first suspicion began when one told me to floss more, so I flossed daily for an entire year. When I went back in after six months, they told me to floss more. Despite the fact that I haven't changed my dental practices in as long as I can remember I get told different things every time I go. One time they tell me I need to be better about brushing, next time I need to floss more. Most recently, again I haven't changed my habits at all, they said I'm doing a great job and shouldn't change my practices at all.
• laserDinosaur 3y ago
  There's an episode of Marketplace in Canada[1] where they found similar results themselves: "By the end, the dentists had recommended treatments covering 19 different teeth, ranging from nighttime mouth guards to veneers promising a "complete smile makeover," with cost estimates ranging from $144 to $11,931." When they asked for answers they were told "Dentistry is more of an art than a science". I damn near fell out of my chair when I heard that. [1]https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/dentists-vary-widely-on-diagnosis-and-cost-cbc-marketplace-finds-1.1279371 https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/dentists-vary-widely-on-diagn...
• entropicgravity 3y ago
  If you have an ongoing problem of plaque/tartar build up on your teeth then this BBC article[1] could be a life changer for you. It was for me. After a year of doing it right my gums are now close to perfect. I notice though that neither my hygenist's or my dentist's office has been handing out information about this approach. Not good for business perhaps. I believe this technique works via abrasion so toothpaste is a must. I use a Braun 4000 but any sturdy electric toothbrush should work. [1]https://www.bbc.com/future/article/20220718-the-best-way-to-brush-your-teeth#:~:text=The%20modified%20Bass%20technique%20involves,and%20forth%20at%20the%20gumline https://www.bbc.com/future/article/20220718-the-best-way-to-....
  • shrimpx 3y ago
    So it's just holding the electric brush at 45 degrees against the gum?
    • entropicgravity 3y ago
      Pretty much yes, holding your brush at 45 degrees and following your gum line. I found I could feel and follow my gum line except on my back upper outside molars where I had to turn the brush about 30 degrees up (in the front to back direction). For some reason I can't feel that part of my gums very well. I'm pretty sure your mileage may very. It's also helpful to have a reliable hygienist check how you're going until you get it right. I'll probably end up going about every six months in any case, with healthy gums. Which is much better than "I would hate to see you lose all your teeth." which is what my hygienist said before I got serious. Finally, I've only been brush once a day, before bed for two reasons. First to check how well things were going and second, to avoid too much wear and tear on the gums in case it wasn't necessary. As it turned out I'm fine with once a day. The primary way I check between check ups is to floss about once every two weeks. If my gums bleed then it's a sign I'm off track. Before I started this technique my gums would almost always bleed.
      • shrimpx 3y ago
        I appreciate the detailed reply! Just to clarify: You only floss once every 2 weeks?
• programmertote 3y ago
  I went to a new dentist after moving to FL. Pines True Smile is their name. The dentist and cleaning hygienist keeps selling me this Invisalign despite me being 40 years old with teeth in great condition (I have two front buck teeth, which are just 3mm ahead of others around them). The hygienist even said because of those two front teeth, the air gets into my mouth and the rest of the gum will be eroded by bacteria more (kind of like a scarce tactic to make me go through with their Invisalign procedure, which would cost me $2-300 out of pocket). I refused because I never had any issue with my teeth and have great set of teeth (my previous dentist and hygienist in NY would always praise how well I maintain my oral hygiene). I even joked them that I'm happily married and don't need to look dapper anymore. Then the dentist (who's the owner of that clinic) started giving me an attitude. He then told me I need to extract a wisdom tooth that never came out. I saw the X-rays and it is not touching/hitting other molar like some of the nightmare wisdom scenarios that I've seen on the internet. It just didn't come out of the gum and it wasn't hurting me for the last 20 years of my life. So I refused saying because it never give me a problem, I'll leave it at that. My worry was that once it's taken out, it would give more space for the molar and other teeth nearby to start shifting, and my teeth spacing will become sparse (thereby, needing Invasilign for real). Then he started talking to me impatiently. Finally, he suggested I redo the fillings, 4 of them total, that I had done ~10 years ago in SF. I never had any discomfort and there is no stain or sign of old-age in these fillings. The dentist didn't show me any picture of these fillings and why they need to refilled. But given that I have read about fillings needing to be redone every decade or so before, I said alright. Then he did it in 20 mins. Now one of the molars that he refilled has been giving me some uncomfortable sensations occasionally when I chew something with it. This is not to mention that because I mentioned that the last time I went to a dentist was 1 year ago (I was busy from moving to FL), they suggested me to a deep cleaning. Turns out, that deep cleaning was quoted to be $2592 on paper and cost me $237.80 out of pocket (plus $569.20 paid out by my dental plan). The fillings cost $384 on paper and $36 out of pocket (plus $225 paid out by my dental plan). The worst was that the "deep cleaning" they gave me was EXACTLY the same that I got every six months from my NY dentist, who I had been seeing for 4-5 years. Basically, my conclusion is that the dentist and hygienists decided to extract (pun intended) as much money out of me as possible because it was my first visit and my teeth are in good condition, so they realize if they couldn't scare me with mis-aligned teeth, closeted wisdom teeth, etc. then they might as well make up some excuses to charge me as much money as possible for "deep cleaning" and refillings. The clinic still made $237.80+$569.20+$36+$225=$1068 for a total of maybe 20 mins with the dentist and 25-30 mins with the hygienist. Needless to say that I refused to schedule bi-annual (every 6 months) visit with them this July. The point I'm trying to make is that in this day and age of profit-oriented healthcare, we, as patients, cannot trust doctors and dentists without questioning (yet, some doctors and dentists don't like us questioning their judgment/recommendations because they are the ultimate authorities).
• abeppu 3y ago
  I'm guessing this can't happen for institutional reasons, but given that dentists are using x-rays + cameras, and apparently even sending people home with copies of images, is there room for a standardized ML-based "check" which could help catch cases where individual dentists are recommending something well outside some consensus/standards of care? If everyone could easily check their images against the same bot, and pool information, one could identify dentists who regularly recommend unnecessary work. Or we could normalize the idea of getting the exam done by dentist A, and getting the work done by some other undisclosed dentist B, so they're not incentivized to give bogus recommendations?
• glimshe 3y ago
  Diagnostic from 2 dentists for me: 3 crowns vs no cavities. Just like every profession, doctors and dentists can be criminally immoral or incompetent.
• whack 3y ago
  I've had a similar experience with tax preparers. I once decided to hire two different tax preparers, both of whom had good reviews and strong credentials. I naively assumed that I would spend an hour tops comparing the two returns side-by-side, and examining any small differences between them. What ended up happening was that both returns were so dramatically different, along many different dimensions. It took me nearly 40 hours to catalog all the different decisions made by each preparer, and which of the two decisions is the better one. Through this exercise, I realized that both preparers had made some major errors - and by reconciling them, I ended up saving more than $10,000, while also making my tax returns more resilient if audited. I'm convinced that for any non-trivial decision in any field, the best way to make them is to hire multiple independent professionals, and cross-check their independent recommendations. And yes, this applies to software engineers as well.
• pierat 3y ago
  Unfortunately I have an anecdote, but is also a concern. I had a tooth pulled. Could have been a root canal, but whatever. (Insert sob story) The real problem was that this dentistry was quietly affiliated to the local university's dental school. Many of the students end up here. The problem, is that the dentistry IS NOT UPFRONT this is a teaching business, and not actual professionals. I found it out when I was digging through unrelated records in GIS, and found they were legally registered as a school. Dug deeper, and they're basically misrepresenting and lying to the public. So yeah, keep this scam in mind as well. (I call it a scam cause I wasn't getting student rates, and they did their damndest to hide that.)
  • ahelwer 3y ago
    That's just... all of medical care. The procedures are almost all done by residents and, yes, med students under supervision of a full doctor. How do you think we get new doctors? Nobody wants to be the person who is used for teaching new doctors but that's how it is.
• thenerdhead 3y ago
  Seeing that this article ran in 1997 originally, someone ought to build a website that lists this type of information or experiences for the type of care you're looking to get in your area. I've had similar experiences that make me never want to go to a dentist again because these new practices are so detached from reality. They only care about what is covered by your insurance and will deceive you with non-answers to maximize it. I've also had experiences where one dentist will tell me I have a cavity and I'll get it checked out by another dentist who cannot confirm. These types of things need some type of tally from the public so others don't let these money-grabbers get off scot free.
• xchip 3y ago
  make sense, they are very biased towards the treatment most expensive
• intrasight 3y ago
  I went to 50 different software engineers: Almost all give a different refactor suggestion.
• rsync 3y ago
  Some easy heuristics that will save you: - shower curtains instead of glass doors: subpar airbnb - Kikkoman soy sauce: probably not the best sushi - teeth whitening services: dentist not optimizing for dental health The problem is that they all push teeth whitening ... but it's a strong signal if you find one that doesn't.
  • LegitShady 3y ago
    Free whitening kit with your cleaning! means they're charging you enough for both in the fees.
  • Ekaros 3y ago
    I probably don't agree with Kikkoman one. Maybe with sushi, but other Chinese food here it is more premium brand. Many others are cheaper and worse.
  • soared 3y ago
    Isnt kikkoman one of the only mainstream brands that makes soy sauce the traditional way?
• m3kw9 3y ago
  Dentist can overtreat/under treat/aggressive/conservative(let’s not drill that cavity if we don’t have to). All depend their hungryness for money or morals. Some dentist can remove teeth for the smallest thing which could be borderline valid, but they get paid much more than saving the teeth
• Madmallard 3y ago
  Where do you get the most trustworthy or realistic dental diagnosis and advice? Dental schools?
• justinator 3y ago
  If you think dentists are bad, go to a doctor about a sprained ankle.
• the-alchemist 3y ago
  I know HN will have the answers if no one else will: Anyone have links to good studies (or even RCTs) about flossing, different kinds of toothpaste, etc.? I don't wanna open up the whole fluoride debate, but it seems _stannous_ fluoride is more effective than _sodium_ fluoride. The mouthwash I bought stained my teeth (can't find the link, but you had to dilute it with water. Something like [0]). I remember reading a study that pulling wisdom teeth was unnecessarily common. I can attest that, as the best dentist actually compared two X-rays six months apart to see whether they moved. P.S. Castle Dental is the worst. They quoted me for almost $3k worth of work! A second opinion told me I just needed a cleaning and maybe a filling. [0]: https://www.amazon.com/3M-ESPE-PerioMed-Stannous-Concentrate/dp/B00K5HV05C/r https://www.amazon.com/3M-ESPE-PerioMed-Stannous-Concentrate...
  • dawnerd 3y ago
    I switched to importing novamin based toothpaste from Canada and it’s greatly improved my teeth. Used to be sensitive when chewing and it’s all gone now until I run out and have to use normal toothpaste.
  • zackmorris 3y ago
    My dad was a dentist and I've never had a cavity. TBH any fluoride is fine, so other preventative care should take priority. The idea being that with proper technique, and barring other health conditions like dairy allergies, nobody should experience tooth decay. This is anecdotal, but ranked from highest to lowest (top 3-5 especially!), I'd say: * Brush teeth morning and night with any name brand fluoride toothpaste, replacing toothbrush often like every 6 months * Use a floss pick morning and night, and preferably on any gum pockets after meals, since cavities form where the tartar is, where the food sits, which can be revealed by using disclosing tablets periodically * Use a water pick morning and night * Get fluoride treatments from the dentist every 6 months until adulthood, after that is too late except as maintenance, but continue that schedule for checkups * Sleep with mouth closed at night using nasal strips and optionally taping mouth in an x-shape to not stretch philtrum, because dry mouth causes gum disease * Avoid sugar and foods like potato chips which stick to roots and cause tartar, or brush afterwards * Drink milk until adulthood and continue until intolerant, also eat leafy green vegetables and other high-calcium foods * Eat whole fresh firm foods which develop the jaw and teeth, especially in youth while still growing * Exercise, especially weights and athletic movements that exercise the face and jaw to promote development and encourage blood flow * Work on head/neck posture and sit upright in chair while working, since mouth breathing is caused by poor posture that narrows the throat's air supply, which causes dry mouth which leads to bad breath and tooth decay * Don't smoke and avoid excessive alcohol * Consider orthodontic treatment if bite is off, since once enamel is worn, it takes too long to redeposit before the tooth wears to the point of failure, but get multiple opinions and avoid all extractive dental work and/or headgear, since orofacial myofunctional exercises accomplish the same thing and can have better long-term results
• throwawaysleep 3y ago
  I asked my dentist about this (someone who has never done any major work on me despite 20+ years of the option to do so) and he said that insurance reimbursements are such that you need to do X amount of work per Y patients to make money. With him, I pay a 50% premium on the regular dentistry, well above what insurance will pay. Worth it, but makes sense.
• dctoedt 3y ago
  Never ask a barber if you need a haircut.
  • esafak 3y ago
    So whom would you ask if you need oral surgery if not a dentist?
• morningsam 3y ago
  Rule of thumb from my anecdotal experience: If the dentist's office looks all fancy and feng-shui, they're usually the kind that does pointless work (which is where the money for the fancy office comes from). You can't turn this around and say that any dentist with a humble office will be honest and only do what's necessary, but the likelihood is higher.
• can16358p 3y ago
  "You do not have access to www.rd.com. The site owner may have set restrictions that prevent you from accessing the site." WTH?
• Xcelerate 3y ago
  Might as well add my anecdote to the fray: no cavities for decades, perfect teeth. I move and get a new dentist. Suddenly I have a cavity! She “fixed” the back molar and it has given me nonstop pain ever since then. Like someone else mentioned on here, I’m disinclined to believe in conspiracy theories, but I do believe there is a massive amount of incompetence and irreproducibility in the practice of medicine. It’s not rigorous science by any stretch.
• bigmattystyles 3y ago
  It was so jarring coming from France in the late 80s to the US and going to the dentist. In France, the dentist's office was one woman, was the dentist and ran her office (Scheduling, seeing patients, etc...) She had modified her house so she ran her practice from a wing of her house. It was modern at the time, sanitary and she was a very nice dentist, but no assistants or anything. It was very much 1 patient at a time, you waited in the waiting room. At the time, though I was a child, I don't remember cleanings being a thing, just an occasional visit (maybe every 2 years for adults) or you went if something hurt. My family had means but we would still pay partially with mutuelle coupons everyone was given by the government. (Not sure how this works, I was young) Moved to the US in the early 90s, the dental practice in the US, holy moly! TVs with cartoons mounted to the ceiling, a bunch of staff from office workers dealing with insurance and scheduling to dental assistants. Then 1 or 2 dentist moving from patient to patient sequentially. It was a business first. I don't know what it's like in France now, this was in the north, in a traditionally not affluent area (though my family was by all standards affluent). Has it become more like the US now? I don't which one is best, I do know all my grandparents (who were not affluent) had full dentures by the time they were 60.
  • Izkata 3y ago
    > At the time, though I was a child, I don't remember cleanings being a thing Dentist cleanings are to remove tartar buildup, which even if it was a thing you may not have needed (depends on diet and how good you are at cleaning your own teeth).
  • deleted 3y ago
    [deleted]
• alainchabat 3y ago
  My initial Invisalign treatment consisted of approximately 30 trays (invisible aligners) for a total of $5,000, covering all expenses. However, after completing the 30th aligner, my dentist determined that I required additional aligners. Today, approaching my 45th aligner, but it didn't incur any additional charges for the extra aligners. I'm curious about the reason behind not having to pay more. During each monthly visit, the dentist evaluates my progress by conducting scans (done by the intern) and occasionally cleaning my teeth. The process was quite straightforward, and appears to be much simpler compared to making adjustments for traditional braces. I'm interested in finding real cost for Invisalign trays and what share get the dentist
• Aeolun 3y ago
  Why does this say 2022 when the original article is claimed to be from 1997? That kind of makes a difference.
• deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
• electrondood 3y ago
  I've never had cavities. No problems. Went to a new dentist and they told me I had two, and needed fillings. Went back to my usual dentist and they said there was some slight enamel erosion, but that I didn't need fillings. This article is right on the money.
• charles_f 3y ago
  This resonates so much. I have had some heavy dental work in the past because of actual problems that got my mouth (or rather both the issue and it's fix) published, but then I moved far away and had to change dentists. And since then... > Your dental work is lousy This makes me fly away faster than anything else. > Some of your crowns have jagged edges and need immediate attention. They will trap food and cause decay I've also heard this one for the first time from a dentist that I thought I could trust. She initially said the previous work was nicely done, but one day, curiously while she started renovation work in her office, this became a problem that "she wasn't comfortable with anymore" This is to the point that I switch dentists often and only get cleanings, reject everything they propose. Nothing they recommend ever align, and I'm quite open to them about that, and they still go ahead and affirm that the previous one was wrong and they know their shit. > what I really ought to do, he said, would be to crown all 28 teeth How can you reasonably be comfortable proposing that to someone? I can't begin to imagine all the problems you're gonna create for your customer at this stage. Incentives for dentists are built in a way that only a very strong ethical sense will make them do the right thing. And since the standard is so low, of course things are going this way. Unless ethical boards are made to be more independent and get much stronger on this kind of malpractice, or you reform training so that dentists don't start with huge student debt, there's no good way out.
• prakhar897 3y ago
  I really lucked out that Indians families push for Doctor/Engineer career so hard. My family has dentists, surgeons, general practice doctors etc. This gives me immense leverage as trusted second opinion is just a call away. Also, Can anyone tell why don't more people fly to other countries for these procedures? Paying something like 6k$ for a crown is pure extortion. In India, a decent one (with quality equivalent to US) costs around 60$. That a difference of 100x.
  • deleted 3y ago
    [deleted]
  • solardev 3y ago
    Medical tourism is totally a thing, but it's harder when you don't know the other country's culture and/or language and can't tell a good doctor apart from a bad one. It's a lot easier when you have family and referrals in the other country who can point you at a trusted source. Just like most outsourcing, I suppose.
• gumby 3y ago
  I had the same experience in the last two weeks! I hadn't been to the dentist since covid. My gf convinced me to try her dentist -- I left with a $6000 proposal to fix all sorts of problems (including the one that sent me there -- a lost filling). So I went back to my old dentist; she identified the missing filling and a couple of holes "worth keeping an eye on" with a total projected cost of... $300.
• deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
• aj_nikhil 3y ago
  Its an old article "This article originally ran in the February 1997 issue of Reader’s Digest."
• PopAlongKid 3y ago
  >What, then, can Americans do to protect themselves from overtreatment and overcharging? Says the ADA’s Dr. Seldin, “We encourage patients to seek out—certainly if there’s a lot of work to be done—second or third opinions so they can have comfort with the practitioner’s recommendations.” Actually, the article already identified the prime protection mechanism -- insurance. The data in the article is nearly meaningless, because in each case it was presented as "I will get reimbursed for whatever you charge me". Having said that, you also need to get quality insurance, not the kind that limits you to the local "Smiles" dental franchise office.
  • solardev 3y ago
    Isn't dental insurance kinda a scam itself? They pay for a couple cleanings and give you maybe a slight discount on major work, but the payout limit is so low that you might as well pay out of pocket for all of it (and just save your premiums for operations) or use the clinic's own subscription program. When would dental insurance actually be cost effective for any major operations?
    • PopAlongKid 3y ago
      I wouldn't say it's a scam, but yes it is in many cases just pre-paid expenses. If all you need is cleanings and periodic x-rays, it might end up a wash against the cost of premiums. I recently went through a transition from employer-provided group dental insurance, to the basic Medicare Advantage dental offered through Kaiser, and had to pay out of pocket for some major work that couldn't wait (root canal). Since then I have found an affiliation-based group plan that costs a little more but results in much lower amounts charged by the dentist for non-routine work. The quality of the dentists in the network is much higher, in my limited experience.
• i_like_apis 3y ago
  I have always agreed with Vinod Khosla about doctors. Much of what they do today should be replaced by AI. My own opinion: their arrogance is the most offensive part of the situation. There are plenty of great doctors and surgeons out there, don’t get me wrong. But the majority seem to think they are a superior species.
  • dclowd9901 3y ago
    No doubt an artifact of their cult like educational experience. The whole system should be uprooted.
• dclowd9901 3y ago
  I’ve always suspected this was the case, but this result is kind of astounding. I would expect, generally, dentists agree on mouth health. Indeed, the ones he sees initially that lack financial motive have general agreement on his treatment plan. A very generous interpretation of the results here are that none of these dentists have a good context for the reporter’s overall dental health, hence such variation, but I suspect it is the far more banal profiteering that is driving the differences. My own experiences mirror this when I go to a dentist. A gleaming office with several very expensive cars parked out front makes me immediately suspicious. This industry had better tighten up or it’s going to have real problems with trust.
• swe_dima 3y ago
  When I was in beginning of my 20s I would put blind trust in doctors. Unfortunately I had a ligament tear in my knee and after 4 surgeries I developed some pretty bad pains. I took a vacation and scheduled visits to 10 orthopedic surgeons who had some of the highest medical credentials in the country. Everyone told me that pain was caused by a different thing and dismissed ideas of other doctors. The confidence with which they told me the reason would have convinced me have I not visited other doctors. Later I had similar experience with doctors from other health areas. Essentially, in medicine they can only diagnose the most typical stuff, for anything else it's just a bunch of wild guesses.
  • ProjectArcturis 3y ago
    Did you ever get it solved? Also, they just discovered a new ligament in the knee a few years ago. Orthopedic science is not where a layman would imagine it to be.
    • swe_dima 3y ago
      I think I solved it to a reasonable degree given the situation. Took a few years and about 50 of PRP and hyaluronic acid injections inside the knee joint, one SVF procedure (probably the most efficient thing), and regular muscle strengtening. MRI shows that missing cartilage in my knee has grown back. Funny thing, if you Google right now "can cartilage in the knee grow back?" you are going to get a "NO" except for some experimental treatments.
  • dumdumchan 3y ago
    That's probably how we'll see AI take over. AI will prescribe and humans will do the manual labor.
• smallerdemon 3y ago
  Yeah, if you find an honest dentist in 2023 in the United States, never, ever go to anyone else. Thank GOD I found one recently. After a cross country move I put off going to the dentist for FIVE years because my previous dentist was amazing. The first one I tried was a bizarre Christian cult with a bunch of chi-chi crap in the lobby, and contemporary Christian music that -the dentist hummed along to while working on my teeth-. And then the calls started "You need X, Y, Z and probably A, B and C." and I was like "Nah. Fuck right off." Two more years without, and FINALLY found a guy who was like "You're teeth are fine. We'll keep an eye on some of these, but only worry about them if they cause you pain or have sudden changes." Guy is a gem.
• mildavw 3y ago
  I have a good friend who is a hygienist for two dentists. One is completely inept and the other an outright scammer. The inept guy generates business by doing such a poor job with fillings that crowns and root canals are always eventually needed. And he does such a poor job with those that bridges and implants are then needed. He's a master bullshitter and most patients trust him (a few catch on, and a few have sued). My friend keeps records for the lawsuits, covers her own butt, and discreetly encourages some patients to go elsewhere. The fraudster puts everyone on "perio" schedules (cleanings every 3 months instead of 6) whether they need it or not. And also bills insurance for treatment he didn't do. His actual dental skills are decent, however. We laypeople assume we can trust these "experts" with degrees and white coats when we really have no clue if what they're doing is legit. Next time you get your teeth cleaned, ask the hygienist if they themselves (or their family -- kids, parents) use the dentist you're about to see. My friends says that this is the question with the most valuable answer. She wouldn't let either guy within 100 miles of her teeth or her kids' and will happily tell people where she goes if they ask. This is assuming the hygienist isn't crooked too. In the US, hygienists are typically paid hourly but with "production" bonuses, meaning they get a cut of the dentists fees for treatment beyond cleaning. So beware that they're incentivized to do more treatment than necessary too. In my friend's case, the bonuses are a small %, so it's not a huge incentive. She stays because they pay well, give her the hours she needs as a single mom, and likes her co-workers. But the patient care and outcomes do take moral toll on her.
• TimTheTinker 3y ago
  Should say (1997) - this was a reprint in 2022
• duffpkg 3y ago
  Wrote Hacking Healthcare, healthcare executive for 20+ years... About 10 years into my career we had already been managing some very large hospital groups but ended up with a mangement contract for a diverse group health system that through accidents of history including some dental clinics. ~50 suites across several sites/brands. I had had some exposure to dental clinics and generally had not been impressed but not overly concerned either. First meeting we had with the senior staff across the clinics set my hair on fire. It was one of the most callous, fraudulent and shocking things I had ever seen in my career. Dentistry does not have a notion or ethical obligation of "first do no harm...". The entire agenda of the strategy setting meeting was how to trick "patients" into unecessary procedures, generally defraud insurance companies (especially breaking things across many visits that could easily be done in one) and every other deceptive way to inflate profit at "patient" expense that could be conceived. There were quotas for procedures, something unimaginable and defacto illegal in a healthcare setting. Needless to say we divested the dental clinics as soon as possible. I came to find in later years that those modes of operation are more or less commonplace in the industry.
• pragmatic8 3y ago
  The dental and vision “care” industry is rife with fraudsters to the extent that they are more akin to rackets.
• imperfect_light 3y ago
  It's because in many of these fields (medical, dentistry etc) professionals are making decisions based on intuition and what they learned in school (which may or may not considered accurate anymore). They should be consulting a formal decision tree based on latest research, but many doctors consider that to be insulting, much like they pushed back on check lists when they first became a thing.
• zw123456 3y ago
  OK, throwing my dental horror story on the pile. About 15 years ago I bit on something in a wrap, and it hurt like heck, and I went to the dentist, and he said I needed an implant. $3000 later, I had a cool fake tooth. Then a few years later, something similar happened but this time I decided to try another approach. I used my water pick and sonic toothbrush and just kept after it while taking naproxen to deal with it. Guess what, the tooth healed up and stopped hurting and stopped wiggling in there. that was about 10 years ago, and it's been fine ever since. Now, I use the water pick 3 times a day and brush at least the same number of times or more. And I have not been back to the dentist since. I just keep everything nice and clean in there. I am not a doctor and blah blah warning. Just my personal experience. Chiropractor == Dentist (IMHO)
• _yb2s 3y ago
  I went to one dentist that said I had over 20 cavities. I didn't believe them and went to a second dentist that said I had none, but one spot was eroded and would soon become a cavity. I waited a full 10 years without doing anything and then went to a 3rd dentist, that said I have no cavities. I'm convinced dentistry is a total scam. I'm the only person in my friends group that has never had a cavity or dental work, and I strongly suspect it's not because there's anything special about me, except that I don't go to dentists as often as most people do.
• alwa 3y ago
  I do think this is a (1997) rather than a (2022), judging by the line at the bottom where it says that’s when it was originally published. Also, language in the piece—selecting dentists at random from 28 cities’ Yellow Pages, the claim that “the average income for dentists in private practice for 1994, the last year for which figures are available, was $117,610”—seem to support the idea that these figures are from 26 years ago rather than last year. And if those prices were in 1997 dollars, I can’t imagine they’d be anything but much higher in 2022.
• tamimio 3y ago
  Sometimes healthcare systems feel like it’s run by Mafias, hell, even Mafias have code of ethics.
• crakhamster01 3y ago
  Can the HN title be updated? Read this whole article thinking the numbers were from last year, not 1997...
• deagle50 3y ago
  A few months ago my gf went in for a 6 month cleaning (to her regular dentist office of several years) and they told he she had 4 cavities, after having none 6 months prior. She got a second opinion and the diagnosis was zero cavities. She called the original office to see what their angle was and they said something to the effect of "ok, no problem. See you in 6 months." They were so used to getting away with fraud (or worse), they didn't even blink.
• commiepatrol 3y ago
  I had a very similar experience at the dentist. Top of my crown cracked and I went to a new dentist(because we recently moved) to check it out. They told me that I need to get an implant and that implants are much better than real teeth anyway and it would only cost me $6k. The crazy part is they also had a foot massage place inside the office that was free after your procedure and you also get a free fresh cut rose when you come in...weird. Anyway, so I went to a different place for a second opinion and they told me the crack is superficial and unless I'm concerned with the way it looks I can just ignore it. Which I did. This was about 3 years ago and I've been going to the second dentist ever since.
• superb-owl 3y ago
  Year should be 1997 based on the disclaimer at the bottom. Cc @dang
• baby 3y ago
  My experience with dentists in France has always been good, but as I moved to the US I noticed that suddenly I was having cavities, suddenly floss was important (when studies say that they don't add any value), suddenly I had to take X-rays every 6 months, suddenly I was being pushed on doing aesthetic changes, suddenly I was seeing insane bills that had no connection with the service I was getting. I'm convinced that regulators should take a look at (ortho)dentists in the US, it's one of the most scammy group of people. Also, I'm so happy that invisalign is being disrupted by all these online companies like SmileDirectClub/Byte/NewSmile/Candid/etc. It's literally the exact same service but you'll find plenty of FUD online about it. Can't wait for invisalign to die.
  • KoftaBob 3y ago
    How would floss not add any value? It literally removes food particles that otherwise would feed bacteria that cause cavities and bad breath. It was hard to take the rest of your comment seriously after that, and only reinforces the “europeans have bad teeth” stereotype.
    • baby 3y ago
      https://www.health.harvard.edu/blog/tossing-flossing-2016081710196#:~:text=According%20to%20reviews%20of%20the,or%20dental%20caries%20(cavities) https://www.health.harvard.edu/blog/tossing-flossing-2016081.... > the authors of these guidelines could not find convincing evidence to support flossing, and the guidelines are supposed to be evidence-based. According to reviews of the evidence published in 2011 and 2015, there is minimal, short-term, and generally unreliable evidence that flossing might reduce gum inflammation, but no convincing evidence that it promotes plaque removal or prevents tooth decay or dental caries (cavities). Basically, brush your teeth and you'll be fine. Europeans have great teeth, they just care less about having the great white hollywood smile, and care more about having their healthcare cover dental work.
      • sarchertech 3y ago
        Reread your article. There’s no evidence that “brush your teeth and you’ll be fine”. There’s no good evidence that flossing is effective because there are nearly no large randomized controlled studies of flossing. Nearly all of the studies rely on self reporting. Flossing isn’t some kind of conspiracy. Dentists make no money off it. Many dental associations and government agencies outside of the US recommended it. Dental hygienist can frequently tell when you don’t floss because flossing reduces bleeding gums. Bleeding gums are correlated with all kinds of poor health outcomes. Furthermore The proposed mechanism of action for improving gum health is plausible and reasonable. We know that food stuck between teeth leads to gum inflammation—it is very reasonable that removing that food is beneficial. There is no conclusive peer reviewed evidence that wiping your ass is beneficial either.
• jbrowning 3y ago
  > This article originally ran in the February 1997 issue of Reader’s Digest.
• phyzome 3y ago
  Tangential anecdote: I needed a crown some years ago, and did some research on what materials to go with. It turns out gold is more biocompatible, safer for the opposing tooth, and will last something like twice as long. It's not much more expensive, even as the price of gold increases. But the first dentist I talked to wanted to do some kind of ceramic, and didn't even suggest gold. The second one, I said I wanted gold, and he seemed relieved, saying that was the far better choice, but that he basically never brings it up any more because it has gone out of style. ...it really bothers me that neither of them would have mentioned the safer, superior, more durable option even as just that, an option. :-X I wonder if this might be an interesting litmus test.
• roody15 3y ago
  3 years ago I went to a dentist who told me it looked like a cavity was forming on the bottom row near the back. He said he was going to drill it out and fill it. I told him I would schedule another appointment later to get this done…. Fast forward to three weeks ago I go to new dentist… I am 45 and have no cavities .. (never had one in my life am lucky :) So dentist three years ago was prepared to drill a hole into my tooth and fill it with metal because it “looked like a cavity may be forming” O
• dennis_jeeves1 3y ago
  Now that we know what the problem is, here is one potential solution that I can think of besides the obvious 'find-a-good-dentist' . Take dentistry and medicine into your own hands to the best possible extent, yes I know it's 'illegal' but... Anyway read my profile and get in touch with me.
• zugi 3y ago
  This article names the dentists who got it right, while leaving anonymous those dentists who conspired to commit physical assault by performing unnecessary medical procedures. A factual listing of what each dentist recommended should not incur any legal liability. Maybe the legal system that makes journalists afraid to name and shame clearly dangerous dentists is part of the problem?
• jiggawatts 3y ago
  This reminds me of a classic "scientific vs magical thinking" comparison investigating "woo" such as Feng shui. They set up an apartment identically for a about a dozen different Feng shui experts and recorded their recommendations. They all said wildly different things: "You need your bed facing east", "The bed should face away from the door", "The bed should face so that the morning light isn't blocked", etc... Same variability with the couch, dining table, and so on. Literally nothing was consistent. Both the furniture layout and the justifications given were about as variable as it was possible to get. I've internalised that little experiment as my "acid test of scientific maturity". A random example that passes with flying colours is Chemistry: the exact same periodic table is taught in every school in every country. Nobody debates the existence of benzene, or the ability of acids to dissolve metals. There is no "eastern school" competing with the "orthodoxy of the south" or whatever. There is only one chemistry, globally. A lot of other supposedly "highly scientific" fields fail this test. For example, there was a survey of practising theoretical physicists about the foundations of quantum mechanics, and it turned out that they disagreed on everything. Meanwhile they were all individually convinced that there is consensus, and that they're in agreement with it.
• dudeinhawaii 3y ago
  I once had a troubling experience with a dentist who urged me to get a root canal for a tooth that appeared healthy. Despite the tooth only exhibiting some sensitivity to hot and cold, the dentist warned that I would be in severe pain within weeks, deeming the procedure critical. However, they couldn't provide any substantial evidence through X-rays or other means to support this claim. I decided to trust my instincts (weird pushy vibe from the dentist) and wait. Eight months later, I started seeing a new dentist who performed a full set of X-rays and new patient scans. They found that my teeth were in good shape and made no mention of needing a root canal. The sensitivity I had initially experienced had also completely vanished. The entire ordeal led me to view dentistry in a new light. It reminded me that in many specialized trades, you're often at the mercy of the professionals in that field. Whether it's a dentist or any other specialist, there's always the risk that their profit motive might influence their advice or actions. Finding trustworthy specialists of any kind is tricky; more so when the economy is faltering.
• sharts 3y ago
  Business is business, what do people expect?
• Supersaiyan_IV 3y ago
  My sister completed a 3 year dentist technician education, only to decide that she doesn't want to work in the field. Why? Because of what you just described. Immoral dentists proposing the most expensive procedure regardless of the aesthetics or outcome, to milk insurance money. Rough framing of situation: same story you told, but imagine it's a young girl, that will be insecure for life because of a dentist's greed. He removed two front teeth and installed a bridge, which he orders from dentist technicians - that immediately observe from the order details how deeply immoral the procedure is. The problem is that if dentis technicians speak up against a dentist, it usually means they lose a customer. Dentists will find someone else to fill their order. It's basically a mafia. This happens in other fields as well, such as: shoving expensive pills down depressed teens throats to milk insurance money, then gain power of attorney over said kid to feed him 16 pills instead of one (true story, friend's son, named Bobby, would have otherwise recovered naturally, but is simply not himself anymore). Here are a few problems: * Money inventivizes immortal practices. Bigger (albeit unnecessary) procedure with lifetime consequences, but more insurance money. Or just money if you don't have insurance. * The craft is polluted by bad role models. Normalizing said practices, effectively absolving young professionals from accountability. * Flawed definition of good mentorship. Young Professionals need mentors that are a figurative handrail to honesty, and acceptance of feedback from peers. i.e. when dentists get remarks from dentist technicians that said procedure is unnecessary.
• iamnotsure 3y ago
  Humans - the only animal species on the planet with mass teeth problems. Dentists are devil representatives.
  • dumdumchan 3y ago
    Literally every other animal on the planet https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kfGEUmkQv1k https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kfGEUmkQv1k
• JoshTko 3y ago
  The benefits of capitalism.
• neycoda 3y ago
  Yay we can't trust dentists anymore. Any other ways we're turning into Russia? Maybe we can privatize everything and let a NASCAR religious corporation teach all K-12.
• gcanyon 3y ago
  For anyone who's interested, dental work costs half as much, or less, in Bangkok. I worked there for two years, and I needed five crowns -- multiple dentists had told me the enamel on my front upper teeth was thin and going to go sooner or later. So I got five crowns for about $2500 in Bangkok. I did not shop around at all, I just went to the local chain dentists and sat in the chair. You could get cheaper. My current dentist (Seattle) says they did excellent work.
• cleandreams 3y ago
  I went to a dentist for 20 years. He was a visiting professor in a dental school and was of the school, "if it ain't broke, don't fix it." My teeth are basically good and I take care of them well. After he retired the new dentist who bought the practice had no end of things she wanted to do. I have a new crown or two and new fillings. What really got to me is that she kept wanting to put me in braces. I'm 67. I said no once, twice, thrice. After that I found a new dentist who was a colleague of my old dentist. No unnecessary work!! I'm glad I left that practice.
• gmerc 3y ago
  PE starting to buy up dentist practices certainly has nothing to do with that.
  • ChiperSoft 3y ago
    Note that the footnote says this was originally published in 1997
    • gmerc 3y ago
      So we’re enshittifying from an incredibly low base. Nice.
• demondemidi 3y ago
  Its like when the optometrist assistant says, "Why are worried about glasses costing $700? Your insurance pays for it?" Not exactly: my premiums go up and care goes down because of the insane gouging. Then I tell them I'll just buy a few $50 pair on Zenni and they get wildly aggressive. Sorry, been wearing Zenni for a long time, they're excellent.
• anonzzzies 3y ago
  Every dentist I went to when I was younger told me I have cavities and wanted to start drilling; my parents and after that me always said no. I am 50 now and have 0 cavities (or any other teeth or gum issues). Always wonder how many people have their teeth messed up for life without any cause.
• sytelus 3y ago
  I found that about 10% of dentist worth anything. This is because training quality has taken nose dive and it’s now mostly a business of hiring dozen hygienists and take the cut. Similar thing is happening in optometrists. I got 3 completely different prescriptions at 3 places. Even worse is neurology and physiotherapy.
• nojvek 3y ago
  Went to a dentist in Redmond. Had all sorts of fancy goody bag gifts. I knew thereon I’ll be charged a fortune just to see their face. Lo and behold he found all sorts of problems and recommended some procedures. I acknowledged but didn’t go for them. Still got a huge bill and had to pay $300 out of pocket. Healthcare in US is robbery in daylight. It’s kind of a joke they call it a capitalist country. Can’t compare prices, get 5 different bills over 6 months, in-network / out-network voodoo. A dentist/doctor could be in-network and yet insurance pays only $10 out of $500 bill and still charges $600/month premium. The whole industry needs a big refactor.
• resolutebat 3y ago
  Despite the misleading CMS dateline up top, this is actually (1997): This article originally ran in the February 1997 issue of Reader’s Digest.
• matesz 3y ago
  A couple of years ago I stayed in south Oregon, on my 2 week visit to the US. I started having incredible tooth ache, so I found dentist clinic and went there. I had no insurance or anything. After being quite impressed with the facility, the dentist came and started testing my teeth at the back. He was putting small swab with cold water, but he didn't find it. He told me that there should be root canal, and that I should look for a good dentist to do it for me. I was going to New York on my way back to Poland, and he mentioned that New York have best dentists and that root canal can cost around $2000 there. It would be cheaper for me to fly back Poland, have a root canal done there and back btw. Eventually he prescribed me antybiotic which helped. I payed $150 for the visit (down from $250 because I was foreigner I guess?). Long story short after 2 weeks I went to the dentist in Poland. He did the same thing with cold swab, but this time he touched on the side which I immediately noticed. Dentist in the US touched only from the top, he didn't even bother to touch on the side. It was root canal indeed and was fixed in 1 visit for $200.
  • latchkey 3y ago
    Dentistry (and most medical care) in the US is absurdly expensive compared with other countries. Medical tourism is a thing, for sure. I know of a few people that just fly to Puerto Vallarta, have a vacation in a nice 5 star hotel, get multiple days worth of dental work done and then fly back. All for less money than a single dental visit in the US and equal or better care.
• trompetenaccoun 3y ago
  >Dentistry is a stunningly inexact science. Because it's not a science at all as far as going to these dental clinics goes. It's a business.
• cipheredStones 3y ago
  (2022) should really be (1997): at the very bottom of the article there's the disclaimer "This article originally ran in the February 1997 issue of Reader’s Digest."
• Roark66 3y ago
  Pro life tip: all medical doctors are like that. When your health is on the line question everything. Yes, doctors are just technicians trying to fix your body. In your It career how many lousy technicians have you met? This is exactly the same, but it's your life, or the quality of it on the line. Remember it next time you get "a diagnosis" and you have this little voice of doubt in your head "hmm, that seems weird".
• lhoff 3y ago
  I believe the Label on the headline here should be 1997 as per the last paragraph of the article: „This article originally ran in the February 1997 issue of Reader’s Digest.“
• bigbacaloa 3y ago
  Dentist are quacks but when you break a tooth and it gets infected the pain will take you to one and you will get an implant.
• rexkwondo 3y ago
  "A revolving door chopped rush hour crowds into people." That's quite beautiful
• ctenb 3y ago
  Is anyone able to compare this story with dentistry situations in other countries? Perhaps EU countries?
• isomorphic- 3y ago
  Misleading title. Bottom of article says it was originally published in 1997 edition of Reader's Digest.
• rolfus 3y ago
  I would be shocked by this, but I just finished reading "Noise: A Flaw in Human Judgment" by Daniel Kahneman (the author of Thinking fast and slow") and therefore I'm not at all surprised. In the book they show many well-documented examples where experts (including doctors) are giving wildly different judgements on the same case. In this specific article there's another factor that compounds the problem; bias towards more expensive treatments.
• layer8 3y ago
  It's actually (1997).
• mensetmanusman 3y ago
  In our town a dentist was making bank pulling teeth of poor kids and collecting Medicaid checks. Also post Covid a new dentist said I had built up 6 cavities, so I went somewhere else and they said it was maybe 1 but that if I did fluoride rinse it might just heal over the next year.
• lampshades 3y ago
  My dad is a dentist and he’s talked about how in his younger days he was more aggressive with his treatment and as he got older and understood more, he became less aggressive and more of a “wait and see what happens”. He’s mentioned that he commonly sees aggressiveness in treatment with younger dentists.
• T3RMINATED 3y ago
  [dead]
• shellfishgene 3y ago
  A group at ETH Zurich did this experiment in a rather elaborate way some years back [1]. They sent the same guy, who had only one very minor dental problem, to 180 (!) dentists. About 25% of them incorrectly found cavities that they said had to be taken care of, some up to 6, and some in varying teeth. As an interesting extra they dressed him up in high and low socioeconomic status clothes (jeans, t-shirt and backpack vs. suit with Rolex and car keys) and found the "student" was 'overtreated' more than the business man. The assumption was that richer patients are more likely to get a second opinion, and thus the dentists didn't make up problems. [1] https://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=3036573 https://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=3036573
• koromak 3y ago
  I also had a dentist outright lie about needing a procedure.
• jjk166 3y ago
  I can't speak to other professions, but I know for mechanical engineering if you asked 50 engineers what they thought the best solution to a problem was they'ed give you 50 different answers. Of course if you got them all together in a room, probably 40 of them would say "oh that's a much better idea" right away, and a few more would as well after a bit of back and forth. Still, you'd probably be left with three or four proposals, each with a few die hard proponents and detractors. I'm sure any profession that it takes years of training to practice probably comes with enough complexity that broad consensus becomes generally unachievable.
• Rudism 3y ago
  Some years ago I was seeing a dentist that I had no complaints about--I try to take good care of my teeth, and she would tell me what I was used to hearing, teeth look great, nothing concerning, and so on. Then one day I go to my 6 month cleaning appointment and something is off. The name of the practice is the same, my dentist's name is still on the door, but I don't recognize anyone on the staff. When I'm greeted by the hygienist (who I've also never seen before), she says I'll need x-rays taken, even though I had them taken the previous appointment, because their computers crashed and they lost all their old ones. Um. Ok. Then after my cleaning, a _new_ dentist I've never seen before comes in to check my teeth. I can't remember what excuse he gave for why the previous dentist (whose name was still on the door, I remind you) wasn't there, but it was something hand wavy. Anyway, surprise, surprise, it turns out I needed several thousand dollars of dental work done, also it's apparent that I grind my teeth and need a night guard to prevent further damage, all my enamel is cracked or something and needs sealant, and all other kinds of craziness. Anyway, I said no thanks and high-tailed it out of there. Not sure what happened--almost seemed like some new money hungry dentist weaseled his way into my old dentist's existing practice, somehow got all her patient details and appointments, and then tried to pull a switcheroo on everyone. I found a new dentist for my next cleaning 6 months later and got my usual teeth look great, no problems, see you in six months. That whole experience does not foster feelings of trust toward the profession, to say the least.
  • nunez 3y ago
    > also it's apparent that I grind my teeth and need a night guard to prevent further damage THE SAME THING HAPPENED TO ME! I went to a dentists office that I found on ZocDoc for a routine cleaning. They took lots of X-rays, etc. The dentist told me that I grind my teeth and needed a night guard. Never heard this before up until that point. A few years later, I went to get another cleaning. This dentist never mentioned the grinding, despite having taken a bunch of X-Rays...
• joker_minmax 3y ago
  My dentist is in his early 60s. I'm so scared of him retiring because he's never done me dirty. I just know I can't trust these other ones due to the anecdotal stories of people I know, but also articles like this one.
• pietrod 3y ago
  don't try with psychologists then