24 ms·

Sex worker-led payment platform shuts down after being cut off by processor

288 points by isaacfrond 4y ago

dtech 4y ago
Relevant context here: It's cryptocurrency not a "normal" payment platform
- yreg 4y ago
  > Wyre Payments, the company’s upstream payment processor, terminated SpankPay’s account because Wyre’s new payment processor, Checkout.com, doesn’t allow processing for payments related to sexual businesses, SpankPay said. Sounds like it would end the same if they were a "normal" sex work payment platform.
- springogeek 4y ago
  Not that relevant, this happens to a lot of sex-work oriented platforms. Payment processors often discriminate or demand heavy censorship/arbitrary rules from these platforms.
  - tvink 4y ago
    Different industries have different fraud rates and different legal difficulties around the globe. It might not be a good enough reason from your perspective to blanket ban them, but exclusion based on different legal overhead or risk profile is not the same as arbitrary rules or censorship.
    - johngladtj 4y ago
      This has little to do with fraud, and everything to do with political pressure
      - jwestbury 4y ago
        Whilst I suspect you're right, I'm not sure this goes without saying. I'd love to see some data to back up this claim.
        _cenw 4y ago
        Just look at Patreon and their continued stuggle with NSFW artists. I briefly worked on a similar smaller site that allows for artists drawing explicit things, and our payment processor would threaten us weekly to cut us off for arbitrary reasons. The chargeback/fraud rate did not differ based on the user drawing explicit content or not.
        springogeek 4y ago
        I can't point at data, but there's plenty of articles and reports, including this from the EFF: https://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2020/12/visa-and-mastercard-are-trying-dictate-what-you-can-watch-pornhub https://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2020/12/visa-and-mastercard-ar...
      - joosters 4y ago
        The political pressure (on crypto and banking) is also because of fraud. If you are transferring money via a blockchain with no KYC, it's going to be hard to get a legitimate banking partner to be happy with that. Now when you say 'but it's only going to be used by the sex industry', you're adding another area of high fraud on top. It's hardly surprising that financial companies want nothing to do with two high-risk sectors sandwiched on top of each other.
    - justusw 4y ago
      I wonder if there is anything to the trope, that when the adult video payment eventually shows up on a married couple’s credit card bill, the spouse who signed up for a heftily expensive subscription will claim that their credit card must have been stolen. Thus they will demand the charge to be reverted and thus, many charges being disputed simply because of people’s prudishness. And then porn site operators have high fraud rates. I wonder if they are also more liable to become victims of card testing.
      - bilbo0s 4y ago
        I don't know if we can say they are more or less likely to be victims of card stealing, but that there are a higher number of reversed charges unquestionably true. Had huge problems with that before ccbill. Even after, there were still a higher than normal number of issues. I think honest people would concede that there are many, many legit issues around chargebacks. But if it's about money, then just say it's about money and everyone can sit down and go to work on finding methods of reducing chargebacks that actually work.
  - seydor 4y ago
    they apply the same rules to e.g. nudism
- defrost 4y ago
  Allie Eve Knox, a sex worker and advisor to SpankPay. Knox has been banned from every mainstream payment app available today, including PayPal, Square, Circle, Cashapp, and Venmo, and uses crypto as a way to continue to live and pay the bills. Sex workers face near-constant deplatforming, loss of income, and instability in their work as a result of discriminatory financial institutions and laws. In December, Knox and Ameen Soleimani, co-founder of Spankchain, joined adult industry advocacy group The Free Speech Coalition on Congressional visits to discuss financial discrimination against sex workers with legislators. It's across all payment platforms, it's targeted against sex workers, and they're seeking federal intervention in the US to attain fair access.
  - moremetadata 4y ago
    [dead]
  - ClumsyPilot 4y ago
    > Allie Eve Knox has been banned from every mainstream payment app available today, including PayPal, Square, Circle, Cashapp, and Venmo, and uses crypto as a way to continue to live and pay the bills. This seeems to cross over from 'we dont want your business' into purposefully targetting and harrasing activists. Maybe their should be investigation to make sure these provideds aren't conspiring?
    - eldritch_4ier 4y ago
      Activist? She's a prostitute.
majikaja 4y ago
[flagged]
llanowarelves 4y ago
May as well get ahead of this, every time someone is yoinked from a platform: "If you don't like it, build your own <piece of underlying infrastructure>". [repeat recursively]. More productive comment: protocols > platforms.
- ameesdotme 4y ago
  This is true in many situations, but setting up full self-maintained payment processing isn't really a feasible option for small or even larger development teams. Payment processing is heavily regulated with many legal requirements, not to mention the countless security threats.
  - deleted 4y ago
    [deleted]
  - wsc981 4y ago
    Would be feasible with crypto though.
    - tdrgabi 4y ago
      "Crypto payment processor SpankPay announced on Monday that it would shut down because of financial discrimination" They were using crypto. Didn't help.
      - CydeWeys 4y ago
        I think the problem was in the gateway to USD. If they only accepted crypto, and paid it out to the sex workers, then it would work. But in the real world your average John has a credit card, not crypto, and your average sex workers can't pay their rent or buy groceries using crypto. The problem was, and always is, the gateways to fiat. And I don't see a solution to that.
        kevviiinn 4y ago
mellosouls 4y ago
Crypto payment processor SpankPay announced on Monday that it would shut down because of financial discrimination Interesting phrase, "financial discrimination" (and "banking discrimination" later in the article), curious to see it here considering Vice's (and similar media outlets) lack of interest or ra ra attitude to deplatforming when seeing it applied to services and people they disapprove of in the past. Seems a valid phrase to use though if a platform is powerful and ubiquitous enough to cause existential issues to legal entities it doesn't like or have bad PR.
- KingOfCoders 4y ago
  It is the lowest rung on the ladder of moral systems, "If I do it it is ok, if you do it it is wrong". You can stand on that, but it's very low.
  - deleted 4y ago
    [deleted]
  - hnbad 4y ago
    "It's good when bad things happen to bad people and bad when bad things happen to good people" seems to be a fairly universal sentiment regardless of one's personal stance on who/what good and bad are.
    - gvedem 4y ago
      It's not at all universal. It's just much harder for media to be consistent about than individuals, because unless a media outlet has very strict editorial policies, it is comprised of many people with many beliefs and will end up being inconsistent by default. Especially an outlet like Vice, which is entertainment-focused and doesn't make much of an effort to distinguish opinion pieces from reporting. If a "news" site doesn't have a separate tab that says "opinion", you're gonna get opinion all over everything. https://slatestarcodex.com/2014/03/08/the-slate-star-codex-political-spectrum-quiz/ https://slatestarcodex.com/2014/03/08/the-slate-star-codex-p...
cornholio 4y ago
While the feature of these stories are always "independent sex workers" and students struggling to pay their college, the main users of adult payment services are very exploitative businesses that are not owned by the performers, operate in a dirty and unregulated market and are directly responsible for a large part of human trafficking in recent years. I know it doesn't invalidate the point made and I support the freedom of adult individuals to do whatever they want with consenting parties, but it's an important piece of information to consider for understanding the whole issue. We cannot simply turn a blind eye at the massive damage the porn and prostitution industries are doing to society.
- justusw 4y ago
  Looking at the recent Andrew Tate drama, one definitely gets the impression that a huge part of that industry is extremely shady. I worry though that forcing participants to use obscure payment methods will obscure evidence of human trafficking and rights abuse even more.
  - di4na 4y ago
    Note that Andrew Tate specific operation was quite small. That does not reduce the harm inflicted. But also it is worth keeping in mind that having an independent stream of income allows SW in the porn industry to better negotiate good working conditions. And re going for obscure stuff generating problems. It is already the case and we have good case studies following SESTA/FOSTA..
  - Proven 4y ago
    [dead]
- rippercushions 4y ago
  Making prostitution illegal is what drives a huge part of that human trafficking. With no legal oversight, the pimps have free reign, and when their work is illegal, the prostitutes have no recourse. The dynamics are very similar to drugs, and for both legalization is the best way to reduce harm.
Semaphor 4y ago
Does anyone know what’s the difference between them and whatever provider OnlyFans uses?
FreeHugs 4y ago
Wyre Payments, the company’s upstream payment processor, terminated SpankPay’s account because Wyre’s new payment processor, Checkout.com doesn’t allow processing for payments related to sexual businesses SpankPay, Wyre, Checkoutcom ... How does this all work? What does the person who wants to pay a sex worker via SpankPay do? Do they use their usual Visa credit card or is the process different?
- adrr 4y ago
  you change the laws in banking so the risk is much lower to financial companies. Sex work intertwined with trafficking and no company wants to take financial risk. Chase is in the headlines for getting sued for facilitating trafficking.
INTPenis 4y ago
I don't understand this, if pornhub and a million other porn sites can operate, why can't this one?
- coldtea 4y ago
  Wyre Payments, the company’s upstream payment processor, terminated SpankPay’s account because Wyre’s new payment processor, Checkout.com doesn’t allow processing for payments related to sexual businesses Pornhub and co wasn't using Wyre Payments, nor had their upstream payment processors company change recently to one that doesn't handle sexual businesses.
  - INTPenis 4y ago
    Well follow the leader then. Porn has always been the biggest industry online, Onlyfans does it, pornhub does it, just follow the leaders and do it right.
    - makeitdouble 4y ago
      PornHub being in troubles times and times again (sure, some of it is 100% their fault, but not all of it) and Onlyfans trying so hard to have a foot on safer business doesn't feel inspiring. I'm really not sure there is any business doing porn money processing in a way that is safe from getting the rug pulled below them at any moment.
      - hnbad 4y ago
        Also PornHub is operated by MindGeek ($460mn revenue in 2021). It's not some niche startup. "Why can't you do it if PornHub can do it" seems disingenious at best given their parent company's market share.
    - zokier 4y ago
      > Porn has always been the biggest industry online Umm. Do you think Pornhub is bigger than Google or Amazon, or even Netflix?
thathndude 4y ago
This is going to increasingly be a problem. We don’t need a National digital currency for there to be control in our finances. As long as everything flows through 3-4 “private” entities, and those entities owe their existence to gov’t bailouts, they’ll be quasi-govt organizations.
- pulse7 4y ago
  It will happen: with national digital currencies the control will happen and as soon there is some real threat, people WILL be cut from the possibilities to make payments!
  - newsclues 4y ago
    Anonymous payments are required for things to work, and will be taxed.
  - tokinonagare 4y ago
    > and as soon there is some real threat No, the threat won't need to be anywhere close to real. It will be abused politically against whoever is disagreeing with the government, like it was against the truckers demoing in Canada. The banking system is actually already weaponized case when stakes are high. In my own nominally democratic country, access to loans for the presidential campaign is already refused by national banks to the party that ranked second the last two times. The leader then had to ask for Russian funding...
    - jeromegv 4y ago
      Those "protesters" started having their banking denied once they started advocating for overthrowing the government. They were not just protesting, they were planning and requesting the government to be overthrown and guns were found. So at this point, it is possible that yes, the government will take exceptionally high measures to counter an attack against the state. Tons of people have been protesting about the Canadian government and COVID measures outside of that blockade (up to this day), and their bank account is still fine.
  - 4y ago
nashashmi 4y ago
Democracy in action. Companies are against any support for this kind of industry. And so get pushback from any and all kinds of services. I'm just waiting for some schmuck to argue a human rights argument and force vendors to service them.
- nashashmi 4y ago
  I said "Democracy in action" and liberals here are downvoting. Hypocrisy.
  - GrinningFool 4y ago
    That seems like a leap. How do you know who is downvoting or why? I did not downvote, but my opinion of your comment is at best it doesn't add to the discussion. At worst, it's flame-bait. I mention this only because these are potential reasons for downvote as well. It's all speculation though, because I too have no knowledge of who is downvoting you and why.
    - nashashmi 4y ago
      Good counter. I have observed posts with denunciation of porn industry and its relevant activities get downvoted often. Whereas posts that celebrate its freedom and openness, get upvoted, and they all have a left leaning or libertarian bias. That is where the speculation comes in. My hypothesis: HN crowd is more centered towards innovation and new ideas, and frown upon anything that mimics old regulations. I guess the porn industry is a ground of innovation and new ideas right now.
locallost 4y ago
Not a very helpful comment from my side in terms of proposing a solution for this, but: I bet people complaining against cancel culture will not complain about this.
- radu_floricica 4y ago
  we libertarians actually exist, you know. aren't just a legend.
  - minsc_and_boo 4y ago
    Do you though? What's your opinion on abortion? Because every libertarian I've met is pro state-enforced pregnancies.
    - radu_floricica 4y ago
      Really? US libertarians are a bit weird. Here in Europe we don't even have a dispute - it's legal up to a point, and we don't see much benefit to fight over when exactly this point happens. It's usually ok for practical purposes.
- gadders 4y ago
  The converse is also true, of course. Those cheering on previous cancellations will complain now that it has happened to someone they approve of.
  - locallost 4y ago
    I don't disagree. But my conclusion is that cancel culture is nothing new. The novelty is that those that used to get cancelled are now cancelling others.
    - gadders 4y ago
      I think it's become a case of "Don't hate the player, hate the game."
surprisetalk 4y ago
I met Ameen (CEO) and the SpankChain team back in 2018. Our teams spent a whole day together talking about life, payment strategies, and the future. Ameen is definitely 1 standard deviation smarter than me. The clock speed of his brain made me feel like an outdated CPU. They were kind people. They really cared about vulnerable people getting reliable income. I hope all of them the best. If you're in a position to hire anybody from their team, strongly consider reaching out to them.
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
- cifiod 4y ago
  [flagged]
  - surprisetalk 4y ago
    Not sure if it matters to you, but I believe SpankPay was created for digital sex-work payments. I know this a touchy subject, but I think their hearts were in the right place back in 2018 when we met. Please let me know if there have been any allegations since then and I'll amend my previous comment.
- yucky 4y ago
  [flagged]
  - giraffe_lady 4y ago
    Don't like 90% of men use porn? And your issue with it seems to be a failed attempt to get the sex workers paid for it?
    - yucky 4y ago
      There is no way that 90% of men pay for porn. I would imagine the number is closer to 1-2% max.
Havoc 4y ago
Financial providers shouldn't be issuing moral judgements. It seems to be more common too. The other day I got a notification that was "FYI we sold your shares in company X (NASDAQ listed)". They've decided they're no longer keen on weed companies and have taken it upon themselves to fix my portfolio to remove such evilness. Left me slightly speechless...I'm paying you to hold shares not be moral police ffs. edit: this was a self-managed portfolio hence my surprise at getting notified about successful trade
- bioemerl 4y ago
  Who did you get that notification from?
- devoutsalsa 4y ago
  If you’re willing to share, what broker was that? I’ll avoid.
  - Havoc 4y ago
    Wasn't broker, but their upstream provider Euroclear
    - devoutsalsa 4y ago
      Interesting. I looked it up and found some more information. https://thedalesreport.com/cannabis/euroclear-to-stop-supporting-cannabis-stocks-beginning-next-year/ https://thedalesreport.com/cannabis/euroclear-to-stop-suppor...
- hawk_ 4y ago
  If they are custodians and not managing your portfolio, that might even be illegal.
  - LtdJorge 4y ago
    But will OP sue, tho?
jacknews 4y ago
I think payment services really come under 'utilities' or 'essential services', if not quite 'human rights'. And thus processors should be required by law to provide service to everyone unless they are clearly doing something illegal, and even then, it's a matter for the police and courts, not private corporations or individuals.
- Kinrany 4y ago
  UN lists [1] the right to work as a human right. Payment services are irreplaceable for all kinds of businesses, so a blanket denial of payment services is arguably already a violation of human rights. [1]: https://www.un.org/en/global-issues/human-rights https://www.un.org/en/global-issues/human-rights
  - localplume 4y ago
    [dead]
- throwayyy479087 4y ago
  Selling ass is illegal in the USA though (even though it shouldn't be)
  - jacknews 4y ago
    Not in some parts, as I understand. And I think this is also targeted at pornography? I'm not sure where USA is in the pornography rankings, but I'm fairly sure it's nowhere near the bottom (sorry). But the point is, even if it were all illegal, that's probably a matter for the police, not for private interests to deny an essential service 'just in case', or because 'we don't want to do business with those people' , etc.
- Miner49er 4y ago
  This is already probably happening because of a law. FOSTA-SESTA.
  - 4y ago
DeathArrow 4y ago
> "Crypto payment processor SpankPay announced on Monday that it would shut down because of financial discrimination" That's hard to convert from real money -> random crypto -> real money. There are lots of legal and trust issues. I wonder why they didn't use a more established crypto like bitcoin or ethereum and invented their own instead.
JoeAltmaier 4y ago
COnfused. It was a bitcoin platform? Isn't the whole point of that stuff, to allow anonymous payments? How can this issue even be a thing? I'm guessing, because bitcoin never worked. Never provided the anonymity it promised. Became just another currency, regulated by whatever random public exchange you signed up for.
- varjag 4y ago
  The moment you try to cash out your tokens into money with established bank is the moment you run into KYC requirements.
- max51 4y ago
  The company receiving the payment needs to convert the BTC to fiat if they want to pay their employees, infrastructure costs, etc. At a small scale, there are a lot of options to go around it and also avoid KYC, but it's not really a viable solution for a company. They have to work with a bank or another payment processor to convert the crypto and/or manage whatever traditional currency the crypto is converted to. A few years ago, there was a wave of large company accepting crypto (eg. tesla), but most of them have backed down from it. It's like accepting gold coins as a payment for your company. You can't pay your taxes or wages with those even if they have a stable value.
harry8 4y ago
Remember when this happened to Wikileaks?
nailer 4y ago
> Wyre Payments, the company’s upstream payment processor, terminated SpankPay’s account because Wyre’s new payment processor, Checkout.com, doesn’t allow processing for payments related to sexual businesses, SpankPay said. I wonder if they could go direct to Wyre’s old payment processor?
cyberbolt23 4y ago
A good and entertaining piece on who Rules the online Porn industy is the podcast " Hot Money: porn, power and profit" [1] from The Financial Times In the end it is the credit card industry who dictacte what is and is not allowed to be paid using their system. If they shut you off you are basically fucked.. [1]: https://www.ft.com/content/762e4648-06d7-4abd-8d1e-ccefb74b3244 https://www.ft.com/content/762e4648-06d7-4abd-8d1e-ccefb74b3...
jimnotgym 4y ago
If they can cut payment services for this they can cut it for you. Imagine if banks cut off access to MAGA, or the GOP, or scientology, or Greenpeace? More regulation needed
- zirgs 4y ago
  Many people would consider cutting off access for those a very good thing. Political polarisation sucks.
  - jimnotgym 4y ago
    Perhaps the inability to fundraise through donations pushes all political discourse into the hands of people who already had money.
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
fatneckbeard 4y ago
how is it "sex worker led". Is Ameen Soleimani a sex worker? Oh Ameen is also working on Tornado Cash, https://twitter.com/ameensol https://twitter.com/ameensol is that part of his sex work?
hgsgm 4y ago
Misleading title. "Crypto" is as much a factor as "sex work", and "sex work" (like "crypto") is not clearly described -- there are both legal and illegal forms. Also no comment on the fraud/chargeback rate in Spank's transaction flow.
xyst 4y ago
Why would a sex worker want to get paid in crypto currency and then pay a shit ton of fees to convert it to local fiat currency to pay for basic living expenses (rent, health, food, credit card bills). I thought cash is king in the sex worker world.
- zamnos 4y ago
  To be crass, you can't beat the person unconscious and then steal their crypto. You can do that if they're holding large amounts of cash.
- ElfinTrousers 4y ago
  The easiest way to steal crypto involves complicated computer shenanigans. The easiest way to steal cash involves a gun.
- iudqnolq 4y ago
  Because this is for digital transactions for digital product. They want you to be able to click a button and then watch a video.
onetrickwolf 4y ago
We completely privatized payments without realizing it. Credit cards are no longer some extra benefit on top of your bank account, it's how basically almost all commerce is required now. Private companies collect basically a tax on almost all transactions in our economy. I don't know how we let them get away with this. Facilitating commerce should 100% be a government operation and be free. To accept cash I pay paying the US government a fraction of a percent I'm taxes compared to credit card fees. The fact that, on top of all this, they are essentially policing what can and cannot be sold and bought should be outrageous to people. It's a complete conflict of interest that companies can shut down payments to and from competitors to their investments. People can say "oh just don't use or accept visa etc" but good luck staying in business or buying anything online. We absolutely need some kind of government backed digital payment system in my opinion. Credit card rewards should also be illegal they are nothing but hidden fees passed to you by charging the business more.
- makotech221 4y ago
  [dead]
- thethimble 4y ago
  I have a feeling that a government run payment system would also forbid illegal activity (eg laundering, etc). I agree that a private payments network is not ideal but the question at hand is how should transactions facilitating illegal activity be handled? To be clear I’m not passing a moral judgement on sex work - just pointing out the fact that it’s presently illegal in many forms and jurisdictions and that fact is relevant.
  - Schroedingersat 4y ago
    The problem isn't that laws are being enforced. The problem is private institutions are enforcing extra-legal penalties on legal activity.
- onlyrealcuzzo 4y ago
  Well Visa, Mastercard, American Express, and Discover combined have almost a $1.5T market cap - so if you think the government is going to put them out of business - you must have a different perception of what the government does than I do...
Nifty3929 4y ago
Corporations, especially banks, have been co-opted by the government and used for enforcing their whims. This is one example of that. Would the upstream processor really care what their customers' business is - probably not. But are they afraid of political and legal issues that would outweigh the benefit of working with sex (or marijuana, etc) businesses? Yes, certainly.
- ChickenNugger 4y ago
  >Corporations, especially banks, have been co-opted by the government and used for enforcing their whims. This is one example of that. I think it's the opposite way around really. Banks aren't allowed to fail thanks to their pet government since 2008 at least.
kid64 4y ago
The article and comments are missing important context. There might be some kind of moral discrimination at play here, but the article doesn't actually show this. Risk discrimination, on the other hand, is central to the existence of the upstream processors, and risk can be determined somewhat objectively based on current and historical data. The priority for the processors is money, they're not going to turn money down unless the risk is unsustainable.
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
shagymoe 4y ago
Imagine what they'll do with a CBDC.
qikInNdOutReply 4y ago
Its very strange, when more prude cultures like the us project this prudishness upon other parts of the world. When its viewed through the eyes of abroad the cultural perversion of it all pops out like a hologram. Its totally a human right/free speech to have the tools necessary to end a human life. Its totally evil/harassment worthy to document/publish the creation process of a human life. What is the origin for this puritan fervor by those engaging in virtual interest wankery all day? "If I have no life, none shall have it? NaneShallActBare."
- tb84 4y ago
  I'm not really sure this view of things is accurate. If anything, prostitution is far less accepted elsewhere around the world, unless maybe you're talking about Canada or Europe. East Asia, India, SEA, Middle East, Africa? Don't think so.
- eldritch_4ier 4y ago
  "Why do you care about the aggregate mental health of the society you live in? How does that affect you?". Of course we all have a stake in what drug are illegal, what gambling can be done, what prostitution is acceptable - because I don't want to live in a society of drug addicted, gambling addicted, hooker addicted people. Do you think we're just atomized individuals who shouldn't care if your neighbor is caught in self-destructive behaviors they can hardly escape due to addiction? Do you think that doesn't affect you? Do you not care about your community and how healthy your community is? This libertarian idea that "it doesn't matter if others are engaged in the most unhealthy behaviors because its not you!" needs to die, because the end result is a shittier society we're ALL forced to live it.
  - qikInNdOutReply 4y ago
    So you would describe a social violent, abstinent monastry in the desert as a healthy society? As in, a society is the sum of artifacts & progress it produces, not the well being of its members?
    - 4y ago
JumpinJack_Cash 4y ago
Instant wire transfers such as the ones availible in Europe and the ones coming to the US with FedWNow will finally solve the chargeback problem. That is you cannot chargeback the wire once it's sent so better make it a worthwile wank.
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
ThorsBane 4y ago
Take care of people via universal basic income to guarantee that sex-work is a legitimate choice and not someone's last ploy. And vet in public the people who talk a lot about sex-work being work. These people are suspicious to me and I don't trust them, insofar as I've seen in person the types of people (which is limited data indeed) who really care about this type of thing much. I want be sure that it's actually a choice born of free will, not a lifestyle someone is forced into because of not being able to provide for themself or because of being roped into it by an Andrew Tate or other megalomaniac who cannot otherwise obtain love or sex.
_8j50 4y ago
"Sex worker" is a little weird phrasing it like that and unspecific too. Onlyfans and truckstop discount prostitute is not the same field of work. It's like calling a software architect and help desk guy both "Tech worker". Or a janitor "property management".
binx_ 4y ago
Long time reader, first time commenter. Career sex worker with many years experience from online work to in person, including service provider or companion. I also happen to have written my undergrad thesis on the topic of international sex trafficking. FOSTA-SESTA became US law in 2018, a day after Backpage was taken down from the web. Because of the wide and vague net that it casts, it has harmful effects on both online and in person workers. Under the guise of spearheading anti-sex-trafficking sentiments, it essentially kneecaps internet platforms by logistically forcing them to not only censor types of content and users, it also ripples into the financial sector. This compounds when considering factors like cash being preferred but extremely difficult to do anything with it without raising flags, while at the same time the every day average client is not using crypto as payment and cash related or payment processor apps have long since also capitulated to F-S. Additionally, the only ad site I use to advertise my business has also dropped the ability to pay with anything except BTC of all things. An insidious problem inherent in FOSTA-SESTA related policies or behaviors that I can veritably confirm is that it conflates all forms of sex work with sex trafficking -- insinuating that like trafficking, it is inherently exploitative. This cements stigma but also removes the agency I have as someone who chooses the industry that I do and my lived experience as someone who has used both online and in person sex work to help save my own life, get out of abusive living situations, establish financial independence, and also put myself through more school. I have watched how the internet and society at large have become more hostile and paternalistic to people with stories like mine since I started many years ago, long before OF was even a thing, and I think even some earlier comments that have since vanished here are a good example of that. This is not to say that sex trafficking shouldn't or can't be dealt with - it certainly should. But I don't think a lot of people realize that the reality of sex trafficking usually starts at home, for instance, not between two consenting adults in a hotel room. Not only that, but FOSTA-SESTA actually helps to make conditions that lead to being further marginalized (and potentially trafficked) to increase. Hacking//Hustling has an insightful online survey discussing the above more: https://hackinghustling.org/erased-the-impact-of-fosta-sesta-2020/ https://hackinghustling.org/erased-the-impact-of-fosta-sesta...

288 points by isaacfrond 4y ago

dtech 4y ago

Relevant context here: It's cryptocurrency not a "normal" payment platform

yreg 4y ago
> Wyre Payments, the company’s upstream payment processor, terminated SpankPay’s account because Wyre’s new payment processor, Checkout.com, doesn’t allow processing for payments related to sexual businesses, SpankPay said. Sounds like it would end the same if they were a "normal" sex work payment platform.
springogeek 4y ago
Not that relevant, this happens to a lot of sex-work oriented platforms. Payment processors often discriminate or demand heavy censorship/arbitrary rules from these platforms.
- tvink 4y ago
  Different industries have different fraud rates and different legal difficulties around the globe. It might not be a good enough reason from your perspective to blanket ban them, but exclusion based on different legal overhead or risk profile is not the same as arbitrary rules or censorship.
  - johngladtj 4y ago
    This has little to do with fraud, and everything to do with political pressure
    - jwestbury 4y ago
      Whilst I suspect you're right, I'm not sure this goes without saying. I'd love to see some data to back up this claim.
      - _cenw 4y ago
        Just look at Patreon and their continued stuggle with NSFW artists. I briefly worked on a similar smaller site that allows for artists drawing explicit things, and our payment processor would threaten us weekly to cut us off for arbitrary reasons. The chargeback/fraud rate did not differ based on the user drawing explicit content or not.
      - springogeek 4y ago
        I can't point at data, but there's plenty of articles and reports, including this from the EFF: https://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2020/12/visa-and-mastercard-are-trying-dictate-what-you-can-watch-pornhub https://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2020/12/visa-and-mastercard-ar...
    - joosters 4y ago
      The political pressure (on crypto and banking) is also because of fraud. If you are transferring money via a blockchain with no KYC, it's going to be hard to get a legitimate banking partner to be happy with that. Now when you say 'but it's only going to be used by the sex industry', you're adding another area of high fraud on top. It's hardly surprising that financial companies want nothing to do with two high-risk sectors sandwiched on top of each other.
  - justusw 4y ago
    I wonder if there is anything to the trope, that when the adult video payment eventually shows up on a married couple’s credit card bill, the spouse who signed up for a heftily expensive subscription will claim that their credit card must have been stolen. Thus they will demand the charge to be reverted and thus, many charges being disputed simply because of people’s prudishness. And then porn site operators have high fraud rates. I wonder if they are also more liable to become victims of card testing.
    - bilbo0s 4y ago
      I don't know if we can say they are more or less likely to be victims of card stealing, but that there are a higher number of reversed charges unquestionably true. Had huge problems with that before ccbill. Even after, there were still a higher than normal number of issues. I think honest people would concede that there are many, many legit issues around chargebacks. But if it's about money, then just say it's about money and everyone can sit down and go to work on finding methods of reducing chargebacks that actually work.
- seydor 4y ago
  they apply the same rules to e.g. nudism
defrost 4y ago
Allie Eve Knox, a sex worker and advisor to SpankPay. Knox has been banned from every mainstream payment app available today, including PayPal, Square, Circle, Cashapp, and Venmo, and uses crypto as a way to continue to live and pay the bills. Sex workers face near-constant deplatforming, loss of income, and instability in their work as a result of discriminatory financial institutions and laws. In December, Knox and Ameen Soleimani, co-founder of Spankchain, joined adult industry advocacy group The Free Speech Coalition on Congressional visits to discuss financial discrimination against sex workers with legislators. It's across all payment platforms, it's targeted against sex workers, and they're seeking federal intervention in the US to attain fair access.
- moremetadata 4y ago
  [dead]
- ClumsyPilot 4y ago
  > Allie Eve Knox has been banned from every mainstream payment app available today, including PayPal, Square, Circle, Cashapp, and Venmo, and uses crypto as a way to continue to live and pay the bills. This seeems to cross over from 'we dont want your business' into purposefully targetting and harrasing activists. Maybe their should be investigation to make sure these provideds aren't conspiring?
  - eldritch_4ier 4y ago
    Activist? She's a prostitute.

majikaja 4y ago

[flagged]

llanowarelves 4y ago

May as well get ahead of this, every time someone is yoinked from a platform: "If you don't like it, build your own <piece of underlying infrastructure>". [repeat recursively]. More productive comment: protocols > platforms.

ameesdotme 4y ago
This is true in many situations, but setting up full self-maintained payment processing isn't really a feasible option for small or even larger development teams. Payment processing is heavily regulated with many legal requirements, not to mention the countless security threats.
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
- wsc981 4y ago
  Would be feasible with crypto though.
  - tdrgabi 4y ago
    "Crypto payment processor SpankPay announced on Monday that it would shut down because of financial discrimination" They were using crypto. Didn't help.
    - CydeWeys 4y ago
      I think the problem was in the gateway to USD. If they only accepted crypto, and paid it out to the sex workers, then it would work. But in the real world your average John has a credit card, not crypto, and your average sex workers can't pay their rent or buy groceries using crypto. The problem was, and always is, the gateways to fiat. And I don't see a solution to that.
      - kevviiinn 4y ago

mellosouls 4y ago

Crypto payment processor SpankPay announced on Monday that it would shut down because of financial discrimination Interesting phrase, "financial discrimination" (and "banking discrimination" later in the article), curious to see it here considering Vice's (and similar media outlets) lack of interest or ra ra attitude to deplatforming when seeing it applied to services and people they disapprove of in the past. Seems a valid phrase to use though if a platform is powerful and ubiquitous enough to cause existential issues to legal entities it doesn't like or have bad PR.

KingOfCoders 4y ago
It is the lowest rung on the ladder of moral systems, "If I do it it is ok, if you do it it is wrong". You can stand on that, but it's very low.
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
- hnbad 4y ago
  "It's good when bad things happen to bad people and bad when bad things happen to good people" seems to be a fairly universal sentiment regardless of one's personal stance on who/what good and bad are.
  - gvedem 4y ago
    It's not at all universal. It's just much harder for media to be consistent about than individuals, because unless a media outlet has very strict editorial policies, it is comprised of many people with many beliefs and will end up being inconsistent by default. Especially an outlet like Vice, which is entertainment-focused and doesn't make much of an effort to distinguish opinion pieces from reporting. If a "news" site doesn't have a separate tab that says "opinion", you're gonna get opinion all over everything. https://slatestarcodex.com/2014/03/08/the-slate-star-codex-political-spectrum-quiz/ https://slatestarcodex.com/2014/03/08/the-slate-star-codex-p...

cornholio 4y ago

While the feature of these stories are always "independent sex workers" and students struggling to pay their college, the main users of adult payment services are very exploitative businesses that are not owned by the performers, operate in a dirty and unregulated market and are directly responsible for a large part of human trafficking in recent years. I know it doesn't invalidate the point made and I support the freedom of adult individuals to do whatever they want with consenting parties, but it's an important piece of information to consider for understanding the whole issue. We cannot simply turn a blind eye at the massive damage the porn and prostitution industries are doing to society.

justusw 4y ago
Looking at the recent Andrew Tate drama, one definitely gets the impression that a huge part of that industry is extremely shady. I worry though that forcing participants to use obscure payment methods will obscure evidence of human trafficking and rights abuse even more.
- di4na 4y ago
  Note that Andrew Tate specific operation was quite small. That does not reduce the harm inflicted. But also it is worth keeping in mind that having an independent stream of income allows SW in the porn industry to better negotiate good working conditions. And re going for obscure stuff generating problems. It is already the case and we have good case studies following SESTA/FOSTA..
- Proven 4y ago
  [dead]
rippercushions 4y ago
Making prostitution illegal is what drives a huge part of that human trafficking. With no legal oversight, the pimps have free reign, and when their work is illegal, the prostitutes have no recourse. The dynamics are very similar to drugs, and for both legalization is the best way to reduce harm.

Semaphor 4y ago

Does anyone know what’s the difference between them and whatever provider OnlyFans uses?

FreeHugs 4y ago

Wyre Payments, the company’s upstream payment processor, terminated SpankPay’s account because Wyre’s new payment processor, Checkout.com doesn’t allow processing for payments related to sexual businesses SpankPay, Wyre, Checkoutcom ... How does this all work? What does the person who wants to pay a sex worker via SpankPay do? Do they use their usual Visa credit card or is the process different?

adrr 4y ago
you change the laws in banking so the risk is much lower to financial companies. Sex work intertwined with trafficking and no company wants to take financial risk. Chase is in the headlines for getting sued for facilitating trafficking.

INTPenis 4y ago

I don't understand this, if pornhub and a million other porn sites can operate, why can't this one?

coldtea 4y ago
Wyre Payments, the company’s upstream payment processor, terminated SpankPay’s account because Wyre’s new payment processor, Checkout.com doesn’t allow processing for payments related to sexual businesses Pornhub and co wasn't using Wyre Payments, nor had their upstream payment processors company change recently to one that doesn't handle sexual businesses.
- INTPenis 4y ago
  Well follow the leader then. Porn has always been the biggest industry online, Onlyfans does it, pornhub does it, just follow the leaders and do it right.
  - makeitdouble 4y ago
    PornHub being in troubles times and times again (sure, some of it is 100% their fault, but not all of it) and Onlyfans trying so hard to have a foot on safer business doesn't feel inspiring. I'm really not sure there is any business doing porn money processing in a way that is safe from getting the rug pulled below them at any moment.
    - hnbad 4y ago
      Also PornHub is operated by MindGeek ($460mn revenue in 2021). It's not some niche startup. "Why can't you do it if PornHub can do it" seems disingenious at best given their parent company's market share.
  - zokier 4y ago
    > Porn has always been the biggest industry online Umm. Do you think Pornhub is bigger than Google or Amazon, or even Netflix?

thathndude 4y ago

This is going to increasingly be a problem. We don’t need a National digital currency for there to be control in our finances. As long as everything flows through 3-4 “private” entities, and those entities owe their existence to gov’t bailouts, they’ll be quasi-govt organizations.

pulse7 4y ago
It will happen: with national digital currencies the control will happen and as soon there is some real threat, people WILL be cut from the possibilities to make payments!
- newsclues 4y ago
  Anonymous payments are required for things to work, and will be taxed.
- tokinonagare 4y ago
  > and as soon there is some real threat No, the threat won't need to be anywhere close to real. It will be abused politically against whoever is disagreeing with the government, like it was against the truckers demoing in Canada. The banking system is actually already weaponized case when stakes are high. In my own nominally democratic country, access to loans for the presidential campaign is already refused by national banks to the party that ranked second the last two times. The leader then had to ask for Russian funding...
  - jeromegv 4y ago
    Those "protesters" started having their banking denied once they started advocating for overthrowing the government. They were not just protesting, they were planning and requesting the government to be overthrown and guns were found. So at this point, it is possible that yes, the government will take exceptionally high measures to counter an attack against the state. Tons of people have been protesting about the Canadian government and COVID measures outside of that blockade (up to this day), and their bank account is still fine.
- 4y ago

nashashmi 4y ago

Democracy in action. Companies are against any support for this kind of industry. And so get pushback from any and all kinds of services. I'm just waiting for some schmuck to argue a human rights argument and force vendors to service them.

nashashmi 4y ago
I said "Democracy in action" and liberals here are downvoting. Hypocrisy.
- GrinningFool 4y ago
  That seems like a leap. How do you know who is downvoting or why? I did not downvote, but my opinion of your comment is at best it doesn't add to the discussion. At worst, it's flame-bait. I mention this only because these are potential reasons for downvote as well. It's all speculation though, because I too have no knowledge of who is downvoting you and why.
  - nashashmi 4y ago
    Good counter. I have observed posts with denunciation of porn industry and its relevant activities get downvoted often. Whereas posts that celebrate its freedom and openness, get upvoted, and they all have a left leaning or libertarian bias. That is where the speculation comes in. My hypothesis: HN crowd is more centered towards innovation and new ideas, and frown upon anything that mimics old regulations. I guess the porn industry is a ground of innovation and new ideas right now.

locallost 4y ago

Not a very helpful comment from my side in terms of proposing a solution for this, but: I bet people complaining against cancel culture will not complain about this.

radu_floricica 4y ago
we libertarians actually exist, you know. aren't just a legend.
- minsc_and_boo 4y ago
  Do you though? What's your opinion on abortion? Because every libertarian I've met is pro state-enforced pregnancies.
  - radu_floricica 4y ago
    Really? US libertarians are a bit weird. Here in Europe we don't even have a dispute - it's legal up to a point, and we don't see much benefit to fight over when exactly this point happens. It's usually ok for practical purposes.
gadders 4y ago
The converse is also true, of course. Those cheering on previous cancellations will complain now that it has happened to someone they approve of.
- locallost 4y ago
  I don't disagree. But my conclusion is that cancel culture is nothing new. The novelty is that those that used to get cancelled are now cancelling others.
  - gadders 4y ago
    I think it's become a case of "Don't hate the player, hate the game."

surprisetalk 4y ago

I met Ameen (CEO) and the SpankChain team back in 2018. Our teams spent a whole day together talking about life, payment strategies, and the future. Ameen is definitely 1 standard deviation smarter than me. The clock speed of his brain made me feel like an outdated CPU. They were kind people. They really cared about vulnerable people getting reliable income. I hope all of them the best. If you're in a position to hire anybody from their team, strongly consider reaching out to them.

deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
cifiod 4y ago
[flagged]
- surprisetalk 4y ago
  Not sure if it matters to you, but I believe SpankPay was created for digital sex-work payments. I know this a touchy subject, but I think their hearts were in the right place back in 2018 when we met. Please let me know if there have been any allegations since then and I'll amend my previous comment.
yucky 4y ago
[flagged]
- giraffe_lady 4y ago
  Don't like 90% of men use porn? And your issue with it seems to be a failed attempt to get the sex workers paid for it?
  - yucky 4y ago
    There is no way that 90% of men pay for porn. I would imagine the number is closer to 1-2% max.

Havoc 4y ago

Financial providers shouldn't be issuing moral judgements. It seems to be more common too. The other day I got a notification that was "FYI we sold your shares in company X (NASDAQ listed)". They've decided they're no longer keen on weed companies and have taken it upon themselves to fix my portfolio to remove such evilness. Left me slightly speechless...I'm paying you to hold shares not be moral police ffs. edit: this was a self-managed portfolio hence my surprise at getting notified about successful trade

bioemerl 4y ago
Who did you get that notification from?
devoutsalsa 4y ago
If you’re willing to share, what broker was that? I’ll avoid.
- Havoc 4y ago
  Wasn't broker, but their upstream provider Euroclear
  - devoutsalsa 4y ago
    Interesting. I looked it up and found some more information. https://thedalesreport.com/cannabis/euroclear-to-stop-supporting-cannabis-stocks-beginning-next-year/ https://thedalesreport.com/cannabis/euroclear-to-stop-suppor...
hawk_ 4y ago
If they are custodians and not managing your portfolio, that might even be illegal.
- LtdJorge 4y ago
  But will OP sue, tho?

jacknews 4y ago

I think payment services really come under 'utilities' or 'essential services', if not quite 'human rights'. And thus processors should be required by law to provide service to everyone unless they are clearly doing something illegal, and even then, it's a matter for the police and courts, not private corporations or individuals.

Kinrany 4y ago
UN lists [1] the right to work as a human right. Payment services are irreplaceable for all kinds of businesses, so a blanket denial of payment services is arguably already a violation of human rights. [1]: https://www.un.org/en/global-issues/human-rights https://www.un.org/en/global-issues/human-rights
- localplume 4y ago
  [dead]
throwayyy479087 4y ago
Selling ass is illegal in the USA though (even though it shouldn't be)
- jacknews 4y ago
  Not in some parts, as I understand. And I think this is also targeted at pornography? I'm not sure where USA is in the pornography rankings, but I'm fairly sure it's nowhere near the bottom (sorry). But the point is, even if it were all illegal, that's probably a matter for the police, not for private interests to deny an essential service 'just in case', or because 'we don't want to do business with those people' , etc.
Miner49er 4y ago
This is already probably happening because of a law. FOSTA-SESTA.
- 4y ago

DeathArrow 4y ago

> "Crypto payment processor SpankPay announced on Monday that it would shut down because of financial discrimination" That's hard to convert from real money -> random crypto -> real money. There are lots of legal and trust issues. I wonder why they didn't use a more established crypto like bitcoin or ethereum and invented their own instead.

JoeAltmaier 4y ago

COnfused. It was a bitcoin platform? Isn't the whole point of that stuff, to allow anonymous payments? How can this issue even be a thing? I'm guessing, because bitcoin never worked. Never provided the anonymity it promised. Became just another currency, regulated by whatever random public exchange you signed up for.

varjag 4y ago
The moment you try to cash out your tokens into money with established bank is the moment you run into KYC requirements.
max51 4y ago
The company receiving the payment needs to convert the BTC to fiat if they want to pay their employees, infrastructure costs, etc. At a small scale, there are a lot of options to go around it and also avoid KYC, but it's not really a viable solution for a company. They have to work with a bank or another payment processor to convert the crypto and/or manage whatever traditional currency the crypto is converted to. A few years ago, there was a wave of large company accepting crypto (eg. tesla), but most of them have backed down from it. It's like accepting gold coins as a payment for your company. You can't pay your taxes or wages with those even if they have a stable value.

harry8 4y ago

Remember when this happened to Wikileaks?

nailer 4y ago

> Wyre Payments, the company’s upstream payment processor, terminated SpankPay’s account because Wyre’s new payment processor, Checkout.com, doesn’t allow processing for payments related to sexual businesses, SpankPay said. I wonder if they could go direct to Wyre’s old payment processor?

cyberbolt23 4y ago

A good and entertaining piece on who Rules the online Porn industy is the podcast " Hot Money: porn, power and profit" [1] from The Financial Times In the end it is the credit card industry who dictacte what is and is not allowed to be paid using their system. If they shut you off you are basically fucked.. [1]: https://www.ft.com/content/762e4648-06d7-4abd-8d1e-ccefb74b3244 https://www.ft.com/content/762e4648-06d7-4abd-8d1e-ccefb74b3...

jimnotgym 4y ago

If they can cut payment services for this they can cut it for you. Imagine if banks cut off access to MAGA, or the GOP, or scientology, or Greenpeace? More regulation needed

zirgs 4y ago
Many people would consider cutting off access for those a very good thing. Political polarisation sucks.
- jimnotgym 4y ago
  Perhaps the inability to fundraise through donations pushes all political discourse into the hands of people who already had money.

deleted 4y ago

[deleted]

fatneckbeard 4y ago

how is it "sex worker led". Is Ameen Soleimani a sex worker? Oh Ameen is also working on Tornado Cash, https://twitter.com/ameensol https://twitter.com/ameensol is that part of his sex work?

hgsgm 4y ago

Misleading title. "Crypto" is as much a factor as "sex work", and "sex work" (like "crypto") is not clearly described -- there are both legal and illegal forms. Also no comment on the fraud/chargeback rate in Spank's transaction flow.

xyst 4y ago

Why would a sex worker want to get paid in crypto currency and then pay a shit ton of fees to convert it to local fiat currency to pay for basic living expenses (rent, health, food, credit card bills). I thought cash is king in the sex worker world.

zamnos 4y ago
To be crass, you can't beat the person unconscious and then steal their crypto. You can do that if they're holding large amounts of cash.
ElfinTrousers 4y ago
The easiest way to steal crypto involves complicated computer shenanigans. The easiest way to steal cash involves a gun.
iudqnolq 4y ago
Because this is for digital transactions for digital product. They want you to be able to click a button and then watch a video.

onetrickwolf 4y ago

We completely privatized payments without realizing it. Credit cards are no longer some extra benefit on top of your bank account, it's how basically almost all commerce is required now. Private companies collect basically a tax on almost all transactions in our economy. I don't know how we let them get away with this. Facilitating commerce should 100% be a government operation and be free. To accept cash I pay paying the US government a fraction of a percent I'm taxes compared to credit card fees. The fact that, on top of all this, they are essentially policing what can and cannot be sold and bought should be outrageous to people. It's a complete conflict of interest that companies can shut down payments to and from competitors to their investments. People can say "oh just don't use or accept visa etc" but good luck staying in business or buying anything online. We absolutely need some kind of government backed digital payment system in my opinion. Credit card rewards should also be illegal they are nothing but hidden fees passed to you by charging the business more.

makotech221 4y ago
[dead]
thethimble 4y ago
I have a feeling that a government run payment system would also forbid illegal activity (eg laundering, etc). I agree that a private payments network is not ideal but the question at hand is how should transactions facilitating illegal activity be handled? To be clear I’m not passing a moral judgement on sex work - just pointing out the fact that it’s presently illegal in many forms and jurisdictions and that fact is relevant.
- Schroedingersat 4y ago
  The problem isn't that laws are being enforced. The problem is private institutions are enforcing extra-legal penalties on legal activity.
onlyrealcuzzo 4y ago
Well Visa, Mastercard, American Express, and Discover combined have almost a $1.5T market cap - so if you think the government is going to put them out of business - you must have a different perception of what the government does than I do...

Nifty3929 4y ago

Corporations, especially banks, have been co-opted by the government and used for enforcing their whims. This is one example of that. Would the upstream processor really care what their customers' business is - probably not. But are they afraid of political and legal issues that would outweigh the benefit of working with sex (or marijuana, etc) businesses? Yes, certainly.

ChickenNugger 4y ago
>Corporations, especially banks, have been co-opted by the government and used for enforcing their whims. This is one example of that. I think it's the opposite way around really. Banks aren't allowed to fail thanks to their pet government since 2008 at least.

kid64 4y ago

The article and comments are missing important context. There might be some kind of moral discrimination at play here, but the article doesn't actually show this. Risk discrimination, on the other hand, is central to the existence of the upstream processors, and risk can be determined somewhat objectively based on current and historical data. The priority for the processors is money, they're not going to turn money down unless the risk is unsustainable.

deleted 4y ago

[deleted]

shagymoe 4y ago

Imagine what they'll do with a CBDC.

qikInNdOutReply 4y ago

Its very strange, when more prude cultures like the us project this prudishness upon other parts of the world. When its viewed through the eyes of abroad the cultural perversion of it all pops out like a hologram. Its totally a human right/free speech to have the tools necessary to end a human life. Its totally evil/harassment worthy to document/publish the creation process of a human life. What is the origin for this puritan fervor by those engaging in virtual interest wankery all day? "If I have no life, none shall have it? NaneShallActBare."

tb84 4y ago
I'm not really sure this view of things is accurate. If anything, prostitution is far less accepted elsewhere around the world, unless maybe you're talking about Canada or Europe. East Asia, India, SEA, Middle East, Africa? Don't think so.
eldritch_4ier 4y ago
"Why do you care about the aggregate mental health of the society you live in? How does that affect you?". Of course we all have a stake in what drug are illegal, what gambling can be done, what prostitution is acceptable - because I don't want to live in a society of drug addicted, gambling addicted, hooker addicted people. Do you think we're just atomized individuals who shouldn't care if your neighbor is caught in self-destructive behaviors they can hardly escape due to addiction? Do you think that doesn't affect you? Do you not care about your community and how healthy your community is? This libertarian idea that "it doesn't matter if others are engaged in the most unhealthy behaviors because its not you!" needs to die, because the end result is a shittier society we're ALL forced to live it.
- qikInNdOutReply 4y ago
  So you would describe a social violent, abstinent monastry in the desert as a healthy society? As in, a society is the sum of artifacts & progress it produces, not the well being of its members?
  - 4y ago

JumpinJack_Cash 4y ago

Instant wire transfers such as the ones availible in Europe and the ones coming to the US with FedWNow will finally solve the chargeback problem. That is you cannot chargeback the wire once it's sent so better make it a worthwile wank.

deleted 4y ago

[deleted]

ThorsBane 4y ago

Take care of people via universal basic income to guarantee that sex-work is a legitimate choice and not someone's last ploy. And vet in public the people who talk a lot about sex-work being work. These people are suspicious to me and I don't trust them, insofar as I've seen in person the types of people (which is limited data indeed) who really care about this type of thing much. I want be sure that it's actually a choice born of free will, not a lifestyle someone is forced into because of not being able to provide for themself or because of being roped into it by an Andrew Tate or other megalomaniac who cannot otherwise obtain love or sex.

_8j50 4y ago

"Sex worker" is a little weird phrasing it like that and unspecific too. Onlyfans and truckstop discount prostitute is not the same field of work. It's like calling a software architect and help desk guy both "Tech worker". Or a janitor "property management".

binx_ 4y ago

Long time reader, first time commenter. Career sex worker with many years experience from online work to in person, including service provider or companion. I also happen to have written my undergrad thesis on the topic of international sex trafficking. FOSTA-SESTA became US law in 2018, a day after Backpage was taken down from the web. Because of the wide and vague net that it casts, it has harmful effects on both online and in person workers. Under the guise of spearheading anti-sex-trafficking sentiments, it essentially kneecaps internet platforms by logistically forcing them to not only censor types of content and users, it also ripples into the financial sector. This compounds when considering factors like cash being preferred but extremely difficult to do anything with it without raising flags, while at the same time the every day average client is not using crypto as payment and cash related or payment processor apps have long since also capitulated to F-S. Additionally, the only ad site I use to advertise my business has also dropped the ability to pay with anything except BTC of all things. An insidious problem inherent in FOSTA-SESTA related policies or behaviors that I can veritably confirm is that it conflates all forms of sex work with sex trafficking -- insinuating that like trafficking, it is inherently exploitative. This cements stigma but also removes the agency I have as someone who chooses the industry that I do and my lived experience as someone who has used both online and in person sex work to help save my own life, get out of abusive living situations, establish financial independence, and also put myself through more school. I have watched how the internet and society at large have become more hostile and paternalistic to people with stories like mine since I started many years ago, long before OF was even a thing, and I think even some earlier comments that have since vanished here are a good example of that. This is not to say that sex trafficking shouldn't or can't be dealt with - it certainly should. But I don't think a lot of people realize that the reality of sex trafficking usually starts at home, for instance, not between two consenting adults in a hotel room. Not only that, but FOSTA-SESTA actually helps to make conditions that lead to being further marginalized (and potentially trafficked) to increase. Hacking//Hustling has an insightful online survey discussing the above more: https://hackinghustling.org/erased-the-impact-of-fosta-sesta-2020/ https://hackinghustling.org/erased-the-impact-of-fosta-sesta...