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I've just opened a coffee shop in Los Angeles last month, and we don't take tips. We only use self-ordering iPads (I've custom coded an iOS app w/ Stripe Termin

I've just opened a coffee shop in Los Angeles last month, and we don't take tips. We only use self-ordering iPads (I've custom coded an iOS app w/ Stripe Terminal for it), and we don't accept cash either. We've had a few customers baffled by the no-tipping policy, and still insisting that they leave a tip. Some even left cash on the counter or on the table. We had to chase a few of them down to return their money. Also, some customers seem to think that the screen froze at the very end because it didn't ask for a tip. While it has been strange to see some customer's determination to leave a tip, I think overall it was well received by the great majority of people that just didn't say anything about it and made a mental note that the prices they see on the menu is what they'll actually end up paying. We will probably need to highlight that we pay a higher wage for baristas & cooks to account for the lack of tips, and give customers an option to donate to a charity if they still wish to part with additional money. I do believe that the incentive tips provide for employees to "act" friendly to customers can be transferred over into a review/feedback program, which is what we will be testing out. If customers rate their order and interaction with the barista to be satisfactory, a bonus payment will be made to the baristas on shift. Once we introduce this, I'll share the results.

bradwood 4y ago
Japan has been doing it like this for years. And it's much better. Pay people properly, and encourage them to be the best they can be (even for jobs that are so-called "unskilled") and then everyone's a winner.
- Renaud 4y ago
  Not just Japan. Basically most of the world except Noth America pay their waiters wages that don't depend on tips. Sure some places allow additional tipping, but it's not a mandatory fee and the workers don't have to get it to make a living.
  - jandrewrogers 4y ago
    The mandatory minimum wage where I live is $18.69/hr, which is higher than the median wage in many European countries. Any tips or mandatory service charges are always in addition to this and many waiters make more than the minimum wage. Replacing tipping with a 20% mandatory service charge -- tried many times here -- results in the employees earning less money, empirically. Eliminating tipping is unpopular with employees since it is effectively a pay cut. Proponents of "no tipping" policies in the US are not going to be successful until they address the elephant in the room of reduced pay for employees. Unlike in Europe, US employees know how much money they earn with tipping.
    - Renaud 4y ago
      >The mandatory minimum wage where I live is $18.69/hr, which is higher than the median wage in many European countries. That may true in raw numbers but is it still true when you consider that a European worker will have coverage for health, retirement, paid annual leave, paid medical leave, will have access to unemployment benefits, will get subsidised lunches (in some countries) and will be protected by laws that enforce overtime pay and their rights to not be fired without justifiable cause. Raw numbers are not the full picture.
    - autophagian 4y ago
      Generally, minimum wages are lower for tipped professions than non-tipped for this reason. Assuming you're talking about Seattle, which is the only place I could find with an $18.69/hr minimum wage, tipped employees make $16.50 in comparison [0]. [0]: https://www.seattle.gov/laborstandards/ordinances/minimum-wage https://www.seattle.gov/laborstandards/ordinances/minimum-wa...
      - ztrww 4y ago
        what about the entire state of California which has a higher population than most European countries?
      - jandrewrogers 4y ago
        In Seattle, waiters at many local restaurants and bars anecdotally seem to clear about ~$80k/year, so the minimum wage is kind of moot for most of them. I have several friends that work in the industry who have strong opinions on the matter. The tipping issue in Seattle isn't about a living wage, they already have that, it is about maximizing their income. After all, who doesn't want to maximize their income? The economic structure and dynamics of it are fascinating. What proponents of "no tipping" schemes fail to recognize is that it is against the interest of employees in many cases, even if it is often positioned otherwise.
bilsbie 4y ago
We had a no tipping restaurant we used to go to and the service was reliably terrible. Hopefully the rating system will work but I’d say you do need some kind of system. On the other hand Chick-fil-A is able to make their employees act friendly. I wonder how they do it. Finally I do wish you’d accept cash just for people that want to preserve their privacy.
- jmugan 4y ago
  I'd had bad service lately at a lot of places that require tips.
- jacktribe 4y ago
  Cash will tie up an additional employee behind the counter. One of the reasons we are able to not accept tips and pay fair wages instead, is because we don't need a person at the register. And while you can use that person for other tasks when there is no one in line, they do need to glove up each time they may handle a food item. Also, in LA cash is a safety issue if you plan on staying open late when traffic is low. To facilitate anonymous payments, we will accept crypto soon.
  - temprose 4y ago
    how does handling crypto work, do you exchange it for USD daily in order to avoid fluctuations in the value of crypto?
  - ramphastidae 4y ago
    It seems like promoting a fairer society is a priority for you, given your focus on paying fair wages. That’s great! Please consider extending that desire to serving people who do not have credit cards or bank accounts (or crypto …) Plenty of them exist and like coffee too.
    - kevin_thibedeau 4y ago
      NYC had to put a stop to the cashless trend because it is unfair to only offer services to those eligible for banking.
akomtu 4y ago
If you show the full price with taxes upfront, that's an astonishing level of integrity. One idea is to print qr codes on coffee cups: customers can scan those and leave anonymous feedback later.
- jacktribe 4y ago
  Taxes are included. We might do the QR for customers that did not order using the app on their phone. We're printing stickers anyway, using the Star Micronics SDK which makes QR code printing a breeze.
  - anonymouse008 4y ago
    Gotta say, love seeing the 'hack on my own rig' mentality applied to coffee shops. Curious to know how your culture views to-go orders? Based on the YouTube short (place looks awesome btw), I don't think the vibe is grab and go - but if it is, how are you handling the tickets? Just a separate Star for the togos? Nice getting that working, too - I'm stuck in a regional rep loop trying to get access to ours.
    - jacktribe 4y ago
      Roughly half of the customers do head out as soon as the order is ready, especially in the morning. We print stickers regardless of to-stay or to-go because it helps us keep track of fulfilled items, and you can easily pass a sticker to a colleague if you need help with an order.
- oefrha 4y ago
  > If you show the full price with taxes upfront, that's an astonishing level of integrity. It’s funny, what you see is what you pay doesn’t require an astonishing level of integrity in much (most?) of the world, it’s just standard practice; instead, tacking on hidden fees not on the price tag would be unthinkable.
  - TylerE 4y ago
sunsetMurk 4y ago
where's the coffee shop?
- jacktribe 4y ago
  Awakening Coffee in Inglewood
dang 4y ago
You should write a longer piece about your coffee shop! and the process behind it. If you do, you should submit it to HN - and if you do that you should email us (hn@ycombinator.com) because we might put it in the second-chance pool (https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26998308 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26998308).
- harrisi 4y ago
  Just wanted to say, please include some technical information if possible. I've spent time with and looked into developing for Clover and set up other POS systems. I've also tutored people pursuing their CS degree while bartending that want to make their own system. I'm very interested in this space since it seems impenetrable. Small businesses can't take too many risks and trying to sell a tailor-made POS seems impossible. Obviously the situation is different, though.
  - jacktribe 4y ago
    We've had a few customers that have shown real interest in the POS system because they are small business owners too, and split their time between the register and everything else they have to do behind the counter. I've started coding it only 5 days before opening, and it's paired with a kitchen app that shows & prints the orders, recipes, etc. They're both very raw and I'm working on v2 right now. Definitely a space worth exploring. I understand the needs of bartenders, baristas, etc. a lot better now that I'm behind the counter.
    - carlbarrdahl 4y ago
      Really cool! Would love to hear more because I'm working on a few concepts in this space. I'm trying to find the core value proposition and looking for people to collaborate with. Here are two proof of concepts I'm building: https://botto-app.vercel.app/merchant/sattvic_vegan https://botto-app.vercel.app/merchant/sattvic_vegan https://q-link.xyz/q/cld1u6ihc0001mq08j15yhog9 https://q-link.xyz/q/cld1u6ihc0001mq08j15yhog9 If this sounds interesting, please email me at my username @ gmail.com!
  - 4y ago
eric-hu 4y ago
I'm intrigued and would got out of my way to come to this place on principle.
peterhadlaw 4y ago
Please accept cash. We don't need to encourage credit card companies to track our purchases and give them the tools to control who can and cannot do business.
- tjpnz 4y ago
  Why would a credit card company do that?
  - hgsgm 4y ago
    For profit and compliance with authoritarian government.
  - recursive 4y ago
    I really don't know. But they must have reasons I don't know about.
  - patrick451 4y ago
    We can only speculate as to their internal motivations. But why doesn't really matter when we can watch them actively do it.
  - kevingadd 4y ago
    Because they can, and people with influence know they can. Then people with influence force the credit card companies to do it. Not hypothetical, in actuality
  - comte7092 4y ago
    Are you actually concerned with their motivations, or just unaware that this is a common practice already?
- lxgr 4y ago
  I'm a big fan of card payments myself, but I agree that cash should be accepted universally, until unbanking/underbanking is completely solved and there is a cash-analogous private way to pay. Besides the accessibility issue, not nearly all activities or situations making somebody want to transact anonymously are illegal (just consider e.g. people in unsafe domestic situations trying to get help/away but not having their own card). I believe we could strike a pretty good balance with some research, engineering, and product development, avoiding both possibilities for tax evasion and financial crimes on one extreme, and creating a complete financial panopticon on the other.
korroziya 4y ago
>and we don't accept cash either You're part of the problem, not the solution.
datatrashfire 4y ago
As someone who was in a service role and subject to an opt in post interaction survey, I don't believe systems like this are effective. They select for Karens with unreasonable demands. They use the survey to retaliate against the employee by leaving bad scores.
- kelnos 4y ago
  Yeah, I think the ridiculousness of the Uber/Lyft rating system (anything but a 5 means the driver should be fired) tells us that customer feedback of this sort is less than useless.
hedora 4y ago
Review / feedback programs are terrible (5/5: would f*ck over soulless management again). If the whole point of eliminating tips is to treat the workers fairly, why not institute some sort of profit share, or monthly bonus based on YoY revenue growth? Either way, you should accept cash.
- photochemsyn 4y ago
  I think profit share is not a bad idea, but to make it fair, it should also involve some degree of risk sharing. Counting up the costs of opening a coffee establishment (is it a roaster as well?), it's not as high as some other businesses but there's rent, equipment, seats and tables, etc. If every employee and the owner was a member of something like a LLC, what would the buy-in be? I have no idea, maybe $10K each or something like that? Most of that would be lost if the business failed, so it would provide a nice incentive, and once cleared, a steady stream of income. Of course a short-term employee (summer, tourist season, etc.) would probably not be interested in that arrangement, and would prefer a good steady wage.
  - kqr 4y ago
    Employees spend half their waking hours at work. That's a huge opportunity cost. I don't get where the idea comes from that they take no risk!
  - carlosjobim 4y ago
    Profit sharing can be things such as giving a bonus when sales are good. No need to make things as complicated as possible. Lots of other sectors give bonuses, restaurants/hospitality almost never.
barbariangrunge 4y ago
I wish you would take cash. Every other method of payment gets tracked and is used to profile people
- kenjackson 4y ago
  You can buy a gift credit/debit card with cash and use that. Those normally work.
  - sneak 4y ago
    Those are tracked, too, and can't be obtained without strong identity.
    - skeeter2020 4y ago
      ...and often have expiry dates and huge service fees
    - iancarroll 4y ago
      Disposable gift cards are widely available in the US that will run as debit/credit without any need for identity verification. They are disposable, though, and as the other comment mentions aren't very economical (~1% outright in fees if you buy in $500 increments).
      - kenjackson 4y ago
        Amex has gift cards with no expiry and no processing fees after purchase. The price on a $3000 card is $5.95. Which is about 0.2%.
        Larrikin 4y ago
        Is this only through a web portal that is tied directly to your bank account? Do you have a link? Such a card, if it exist, would quickly be the most popular card on all churning and credit card reward forums. Also if it exist but requires a bank account or Amex credit card to purchase, it goes back again to being pointless for the people who can't get banking services and rely on cash.
dumpsterdiver 4y ago
> Also, some customers seem to think that the screen froze at the very end because it didn't ask for a tip. Haha, I think that's totally reasonable of them. As a consumer I would appreciate a notification informing me that I couldn't tip, no matter how much I thought they deserved it. Edit: I wanted to add that there are a lot of places we're not expected to tip at whose employees deserve it just as much as the ones working at the places we are expected to tip at. Tipping culture may be out of control, but a lot of times people deserve a tip for providing exceptional service. That's our way of validating them and saying, "you're going to make it."
- taberiand 4y ago
  Maybe a section on the payment page for adding a tip with a single radio button already selected, titled "No tip required, we pay our servers well"
  - deleted 4y ago
    [deleted]
  - bmitc 4y ago
    It should say "no tips accepted".
- sacrosancty 4y ago
  [dead]
djbusby 4y ago
There is one like this in Ballard, WA. They have small signage about how it works. And also little pamphlets about both Fair Trade and Fair Wage policies. Ballard Coffee Works, corner of Leary & Market.
expensive_news 4y ago
Somewhat of a meta-comment but I’m shocked at how many people are complaining about you not taking cash. Has anyone ever walked out of your coffee shop because they only had cash on them? I can’t remember the last time I paid or even saw someone pay cash for anything.
- EVa5I7bHFq9mnYK 4y ago
  If a place doesn't accept cash, I leave. Cash is one of our last remaining bastions of freedom. I would gladly pay by card, if those cards were anonymous, refillable with cash. But these do not exist anymore, even for small amounts. They insist they must know your every last $0.50 transaction.
  - seanmcdirmid 4y ago
    If a place doesn’t accept credit cards, I leave also. I just don’t carry cash anymore. To each their own. They mostly do it for safety reasons. Being a target for being robbed for drug money just gets annoying after awhile. Getting rid of cash gets rid of that risk. They might lose some customers, but losing workers to stress about being robbed is a bigger problem these days.
    - mikhael28 4y ago
      It also costs money to handle cash. You have to count it at the end of the shift. And store it. And transport it to a bank to deposit it, which takes time ($$) and resources (gas, etc)
      - kelnos 4y ago
        I also expect banks charge larger businesses that deal with a lot of cash for the privilege of getting the bank to handle that cash for them.
  - int0x2e 4y ago
    I get your point, and I do think it's great for many people that we don't lose this outright, but I will offer an alternative view - Where I live, there always were a lot of people who don't report their income fully, which means they mostly transact in cash. We have fairly high and progressive taxes, which means that by transacting in cash, some medium to high earners can lower their tax payments significantly. After trying basically everything over many decades, the clear plan by to government is to make cash transactions obsolete as soon as possible. They've been slowly reducing the maximum legal cash transaction size for a while now, but the goal is clearly to get rid of cash. While I worry about people without access to banking (mostly people without documentation, but also the poor), I think they're on a course to resolve that too, and I for one would be very happy to not have to pay that much in taxes while seeing others cheat the system and reap the benefits...
csomar 4y ago
> and give customers an option to donate to a charity if they still wish to part with additional money. Please no. That's how it usually starts. It was with small change but now McDonalds harasses you every time you make an order to round up for some charity I never heard about. I'd donate to charities on my own. Needless to say I avoid these places like the plague.
- mhh__ 4y ago
  [flagged]
  - Dylan16807 4y ago
    You can avoid something like a much worse thing, that's not a problem. Avoid being insensitive with your bad thing reference, but "the plague" is not insensitive. Also the plague responds well to antibiotics.
- rideontime 4y ago
  You've never heard of the Ronald McDonald House?
  - skeeter2020 4y ago
    At least McDonalds covers all the overhead and gives 100% of money donated to Ronald McDonald house.
- eredengrin 4y ago
  > I'd donate to charities on my own. But lots of people won't think to do so, and it can raise awareness too. And in terms of payment processing fees it is probably much more efficient to include a small amount extra in a larger preexisting transaction and pool it up across customers than if everyone were to go out and donate $0.50 or whatever on their own.
  - TylerE 4y ago
    The problem is the store charaties are always awful. I donate to local charities that actually do good work with it (Non-affiliated-beyond-being-donor plug: https://www.nuci.org/ https://www.nuci.org/), not to bloated “awareness” charaties like Komen.
TheDesolate0 4y ago
[dead]
mc32 4y ago
This sounds great. I'm getting fed up with prompts for tips from places where tips are not customary (non-food) but also I am not a fan of seeking feedback from customers because they may over scrutinize their interactions with service workers --though presumably it averages out over time.
ddyevf635372 4y ago
There isn't any tip in New Zealand and Australia. Everybody get proper salary. The service is always exceptional. How is that possible?
- luxuryballs 4y ago
  culture/demographic
  - wyclif 4y ago
    It's difficult to explain the cause. You can't really account for it by a simple tipping/no tipping divide. In other countries that don't do tipping, you'll end up wishing they did because the service is so abysmal. You can't get decent service or expect a good waiter or waitress, because nobody is motivated to do the job well.
    - lovemenot 4y ago
      You must have not been to Japan.
      - midoridensha 4y ago
        He's never been outside the US.
        wyclif 4y ago
        Ah, that's bullshit. I've been all over the world and I'm guessing by your comment I'm more travelled than you. Currently, I'm in the Philippines, where there's no tipping. Go ahead, come down here on a trip and see what happens. No tipping. And the service is abysmal because nobody has any incentive to be an excellent waiter or waitress. What you don't understand is that tipping became a thing in order to reward good service and provide a decent income to service workers. It's not perfect, but it's there for a reason.
fbelzile 4y ago
> We will probably need to highlight that we pay a higher wage for baristas & cooks to account for the lack of tips, and give customers an option to donate to a charity if they still wish to part with additional money. Yes, after the total confirmation (including tax if you can), where you'd normally be asked to tip, you should see if it's possible to display the no tip policy and higher wage explanation. You could also tell customers that your business is donating to certain cause at this point. Just don't pass on the burden of deciding whether or not to donate to your customers. Another option is to dedicate certain profits from a specific product to a cause and note that on your menu.
kingkawn 4y ago
Just let people tip if they want instead of making a moral high ground out of it
- viraptor 4y ago
  I'm not sure if they're taking a moral high ground exactly, but I do appreciate a business taking a stand against tipping. It's bad for everyone in the end - I'd love it if it died soon.
sneak 4y ago
Unbanked people don't have bank cards. New York City has a law preventing businesses from refusing cash because only accepting cards is discriminatory.
inetknght 4y ago
> we don't accept cash either. Not accepting tips is one thing. But not accepting cash means you will never have me as a customer. Edit: I've already walked away from a dozen different food places in airports because of this kind of trash: please install this app, can't pay in cash, can't see a menu without scanning a QR code, use an iPad with shitty touchscreen that I can barely see or use... I just wanted to order some food and pay with legal tender.
- bongoman37 4y ago
  Yea, basically this is a data collection front end. I too hate where you can't pay without cash though I'll bend if no other alternatives are avaialble.
- Freak_NL 4y ago
  Mandatory digital ordering and refusing cash just radiates customer hostility to me. It's the opposite of hospitality.
  - musingsole 4y ago
    Decisions made for the convenience of the owner, not the customers nor the employees.
- BuckyBeaver 4y ago
  It's also illegal if they give you the item before you pay. Cash is "legal for all debts.' So if they let you establish a debt (by, for example, drinking some coffee), they must let you settle it in cash,
  - inetknght 4y ago
    Cash is legal for all debts but I don't believe cash is required to be accepted. I'm no lawyer though...
  - kibwen 4y ago
    "Contrary to common misconception, there is no federal law stating that a private business, a person, or a government organization must accept currency or coins for payment. Private businesses are free to create their own policies on whether they accept cash, unless there is a specific state law which says otherwise. For example, a bus line may prohibit payment of fares in cents or dollar bills. In addition, movie theaters, convenience stores, and gas stations may refuse to accept large denomination currency as a matter of policy or safety." "The principal purpose of [the Coinage Act of 1965] is to ensure the nationwide acceptance of U.S. currency, consistent with constitutional language that reserves to Congress the power to create a uniform currency that holds the same value throughout the United States. While the statute provides that U.S. money is legal tender that may be accepted for the payment of debts, it does not require acceptance of cash payments, nor does it provide that restrictions cannot be imposed upon the acceptance of cash." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Legal_tender#United_States https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Legal_tender#United_States
patrick451 4y ago
> and we don't accept cash either. I would not patronize your business.
- SilasX 4y ago
  Did you miss the six other comments that made a more substantive version of that objection?
throwaway292939 4y ago
Why don't you set the default to be $0 tip, and make anything else optional? This seems to go out of the way to fight tipping culture and seems to cause more confusion than necessary.
TylerE 4y ago
I find forced (or even strongly encouraged) rating even worse than tipping, especially given the inevitable anything less than 5 stars might as well be zero attitude.
- andirk 4y ago
  I try to almost always tip in cash which means I mark 0% tip, and I never give star reviews. One exception for a review is the smiley face vs sad face at airport restrooms. I've never marked sad face yet but if there was an issue I would gladly and that will simply let staff know there is something amiss in that spot.
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
- doktorhladnjak 4y ago
  Agreed. These customer satisfaction surveys where anything less than 5 stars or 10/10 is a fail is just as dystopian as tipping culture.
- xp84 4y ago
  Seriously. It's like if you had an insecure partner who incessantly asks you 10x a day "How do I look?" and if you say ANYTHING other than "FANTASTIC!" you know they're going to react really bad. Except it's worse since if you ever give an honest answer it's not you they'll berate, the bosses will just flagellate their underlings who might not even be truly responsible for the "low" rating.
- Freak_NL 4y ago
  Always rate negatively, and if possible supply that you are doing so because rudely getting asked to rate them at an inopportune moment sours your experience however great it may have been.
ilyt 4y ago
That seems like a whole lot better system. > I do believe that the incentive tips provide for employees to "act" friendly to customers can be transferred over into a review/feedback program, which is what we will be testing out. If customers rate their order and interaction with the barista to be satisfactory, a bonus payment will be made to the baristas on shift. Once we introduce this, I'll share the results. Might as well go full hog and add rating to food/drinks they ordered. Not to judge the person doing the service, just get a feel for what your customers enjoyed and what they didn't.
gymbeaux 4y ago
A rare-interesting UX problem with people thinking the screen froze. I guess it’s easily solved, but there are surely many ways to solve it.
- jacktribe 4y ago
  It's very interesting observing people use the app in person, as opposed to privately on their phone where you have no idea how they interact with it. For instance the Stripe Terminal reader is immediately to the right of the iPad POS, but a good number of people don't know where to tap the card. I need to design an arrow on the checkout screen for that because I've seen many people tapping the card to the iPad screen. I think Square got them used to that.
  - carabiner 4y ago
    It's 2023 but I still think a lot of iPad based POS have a poor ending transaction UX. It needs to be a cute, super clear and simple "All done! Turn the screen around." It's jarring to sometimes be dumped at the item selection menu that is meant for the cashier. Or it just says "Thanks!" without a direction to put the screen back how it was.
kbos87 4y ago
I am really of two minds about this. On one hand, yes, the suggestion that I leave a tip and the amount suggested has ballooned to a ridiculous level in some businesses. On the other hand, I recognize that there are plenty of businesses that still don't offer a way to tip at all (Starbucks until very recently), and more importantly, that none of these employees make anywhere near a living wage. Having worked service industry jobs and found my way out, I can't help but thinking that most of these jobs are merely dark patterns that take advantage of people who can't or won't demand what they actually should be paid. The unfortunate conclusion I've arrived at is that US consumers simply aren't willing to pay the true price for many of the things they enjoy on a day to day basis. Just one example is that their daily coffee is subsidized through the misery of minimum wage coffee shop employees. You say you pay a "higher wage" - what does that actually equate to for someone working 40 hours a week?
- LudwigNagasena 4y ago
  > Just one example is that their daily coffee is subsidized through the misery of minimum wage coffee shop employees. Your everything is "subsidized" by low wages of people living in third world countries. US coffee shop employees aren't quite near the bottom of that hierarchy.
  - kbos87 4y ago
    100% true but doesn’t invalidate their situation. If we follow that logic to its end, there’s always someone in worse shape who is also further removed from those who have the ability to make a difference.
    - LudwigNagasena 4y ago
      Do you think you have no ability to make a difference for them?
  - kbos87 4y ago
    I don’t disagree, but are you suggesting that we shouldn’t act to solve a problem just because it isn’t the worst possible problem? Feels like a convenient out.
bigtunacan 4y ago
About 5.5% of Americans don't have bank accounts and pay primarily with cash. Most of these people are impoverished minorities, specifically blacks and Latinos. Not accepting cash is a pretty discriminatory practice.
- mikhael28 4y ago
  Handling cash is a hassle. It carries risk in terms of losing it, and it takes time to count it and transport/deposit it into a bank. All things that eat into your profit margin, in an industry that has crazy low margin. You a hater.
  - Jataman606 4y ago
    How much money you lose by counting money and depositing it into a bank?
    - mikhael28 4y ago
      It takes time to do those things. Time is money. It takes time to reconcile in a double entry accounting system the cash you received in business operations. Software does it automatically.
    - akvadrako 4y ago
      That depends on many factors of course, but I've seen it ballparked around 2-4%. You need safes, cash registers, insurance, etc. But credit cards in the US are also like 3% and come with additional risks.
    - nicbou 4y ago
      Where I live there is also a bank fee for dealing with large amounts of cash.
affgrff2 4y ago
I think this is cool and hope your location gets the HN effect today aka real world ddos :) Just to dump an idea: Maybe instead of using a scale based rating, you could experiment with something that has not a clear maximum value to prevent the all 5-star rating effect described by others. The only thing that directly comes to my mind would be a button, that the user has to hold until the time matches the perceived rating.
mnky9800n 4y ago
The review feedback program sounds like over engineered nonsense. You get metrics which you think represents customer experience which you can use to evaluate and motivate your employees to act a certain in this coffee fueled skinner box designed to train baristas. But the data won't represent that, the interaction with a barista is only a small fraction of what makes a coffee shop good (first should be good coffee, second probably a nice place to sit). And the obvious conclusion is that the barista tells the customer, "if you want to leave a tip please give me a 5 star rating, my salary is based on ratings." So now you just have tipping with extra steps. If all you care about is rewarding employees who are good, Why not just do profit sharing for employees who been around longer then x months?
- jacktribe 4y ago
  While profit sharing may work as an incentive for shift managers or store managers, in the absence of tips most baristas will expect some other immediate bonus pay, preferably based on a measurable metric that doesn't depend on factors beyond the barista's control, such as cost of goods sold, supply chain constraints, rent hikes, recessions, etc. If you occasionally ask the customer in-app "how was your service today?" with a simple thumbs up/down option, and you associate the order's rating with the barista behind the counter, you can get a good metric on their interaction with customers. You'd probably want to use the median and not the mean in order to remove any outliers.
  - mnky9800n 4y ago
    I don't feel like you responded to my comment. If you are paying a reasonable wage, profit sharing is a bonus. You are creating tipping with extra steps.
    - jacktribe 4y ago
      Profit sharing only works if you stick around long enough. In the service industry, and especially amongst young people, it's common to pick up a job like this for a few months and make some money, then move on to something else. And that's okay, not everyone wants to make a career out of making coffee. It's still a good formative experience to have, while earning some money, and there's no reason why you shouldn't do it right and get rewarded for it. But profit sharing won't work for someone that is around for a summer. For instance that person could benefit from any upswing caused by previous employees, but if they don't add a positive contribution to the customer experience themselves, they won't be around for the long-term impact. And if you don't give them an incentive at all for the first few months, then you're back to square one. Or even worse: they could negatively impact the profit sharing of employees that have been around for the long run. Ultimately, money is a motivator and pretending like it's not does not make tipping go away. The problem with tipping as I see it, is that it masquerades the real cost of doing business.
klintcho 4y ago
That is awesome! When you say: what the price on the menu is that is what the customer pays; does it include sales tax as well? If so, def a very happy development and pretty much revolutionary for being in the US. If not, is it something you could consider doing? I think it would be the next natural step :) Disclaimer: I’m Swedish, all prices in Sweden everywhere is always including everything, you’ll never pay more than what you see.
lozenge 4y ago
You should collect feedback to determine when you are understaffed or alert you to uncleanliness, not to reward individual baristas. Give your employees the same stress free and untransactional experience you are trying to provide to the customers.
kqr 4y ago
I would be concerned about any sort of individual bonus directly linked to the service just rendered. That tends to work against cooperation and creativity and problem solving. Only when you are unencumbered by incentives can you afford to experiment and learn from your mistakes and get better at what you do. (See e.g. Pink's Drive for more details on motivation.) It's especially bad if it's based on some variant of having scores "above average" or whatever, because that ends up being a lottery. At that point it's better to just establish a lottery among the employees. If you really have to do individual bonuses, I think it's better to take a leaf from Deming and only grant it for truly (statistically verified) outperformance. Someone else suggested collective bonuses (e.g. profit sharing). That aligns incentives nicely: it is slightly lagged, meaning you can afford to experiment and learn. It's also not individual, so it fosters collaboration. It's still something of a lottery, of course, but one decided by the customers, not by a manager.
- nicbou 4y ago
  The rest of the working world is unencumbered by incentives. They still show up.
  - kqr 4y ago
    Far from it -- many professionals, particularly in sales and finance, have bonuses tied to individual performance metrics. That's just as bad.
raverbashing 4y ago
> Also, some customers seem to think that the screen froze at the very end because it didn't ask for a tip. That sounds like the end of transaction screen can be improved Adding a message like "All Done" then "We're a tip free restaurant" go a long way
shellfishgene 4y ago
Here I thought it's nice that an American business does not force their employees to be over the top nice all the time to the customers even if they're having a bad day by making their wage depend on it, but then I read the last part...
robomartin 4y ago
> I've just opened a coffee shop in Los Angeles last month You are brave. A friend opened a coffee shop elsewhere in LA County a few years ago. The LA County permit and inspection process was nothing less than a utopian nightmare. I have done lots of construction projects myself and have learned to absolutely detest that part of the experience (going to the DMV is actually better). The usual outcome is that projects end-up costing a ton more and take much longer to complete. The issues, in my experience, rarely have to do with actual safety concerns, etc. It's mostly about process and check-boxes. I hope your experience was better.
conductr 4y ago
I’m in process of opening an all you can eat pancake shop and doing the same. I’m thinking of charging a small ~$x per table fee for bussing tables. Refundable if they self bus. Probably would always refund it unless they wreck the table. Not sure I want to administer it, or if it would be perceived as a punitive thing and get bad reviews. Just an idea I had while coding the self checkout app. Also, pancakes are made by a robot
- TylerE 4y ago
  That would definitely mKe me not-a-customer. There’s a lot more to something BEING clean than LOOKING clean.
  - conductr 4y ago
    Oh yeah I’d still clean it. Syrup is too messy to trust them. But it discourages people completely trashing the place is my thought. Difference of wiping things down quickly and having to bring out the broom and mop and spend 10 minutes on it.
- tomcam 4y ago
  Where? I’d love to hear more about this journey too.
  - conductr 4y ago
    Dallas area. Early days right now but I’ll post some content if it shapes up.
- Archipelagia 4y ago
  If you want to go thay route, it might be better instead to add a % to all the prices, and then at the end give it back if someone left a clean table. Something like "as a small token of gratitude for leaving the place clean and saving us time, here's 1% of your price back!" One is punitive, other one is rewarding.
  - 4y ago
zoover2020 4y ago
> (I've custom coded an iOS app w/ Stripe Terminal for it) Most HN thing I've read all day. Sounds awesome. Good luck!
lynx23 4y ago
I am blind. Would I be able to use your iPad setup to order something in your shop, or is the "lets make everything fancy" setup maybe exclusionary?
- adenozine 4y ago
  [flagged]
  - frameset 4y ago
    Would the Americans With Disabilities act apply here?
    - adenozine 4y ago
      The ADA is mostly environmental issues. By that I mean if your business has proper ramps, braille on signage for ingress/egress/restrooms/hard copy menus. It doesn’t mandate that a business must prioritize disabled customers or even that every person with a disability be able to use the service. Again, car companies are the canonical excepted business, but the ADA cannot force you to serve a customer that your business is not right for. I’m not necessarily advocating for either side, I just don’t like the idea of an automated process being disrupted when there’s other places someone with a disability can go for the same service. Doing business is mutual.
      - vegardx 4y ago
        At no point has anyone argued that people with disability should be prioritized over any other customers. Just that they should be able to get the same service as anyone else. How you think a car dealership is equivalent to a coffee shop is beyond me. That said, I can assure you that a blind person would be able to buy a car, if they wanted to. That they can't legally operate the vehicle isn't the business of the car manufacturer or dealership. You are clearly advocating for one specific side. You've only argued for one specific side.
        4y ago
divan 4y ago
Thank you for sharing your story. Continuing the geek vibe, I believe the best starting point to make sense of inner workings of incentive systems and rewards is SDT - Self-Determination Theory. It's 70+ yr old theory of motivation in psychology that originated in studies of how external rewards (i.e. tips or bonuses) crowd out intrinsic motivation. In other words, if we want employees to act friendly to customers - should we design a system of external motivation (rewards and punishements) or design a system that boost intrinsic motivation for this behaviour. For example, SDT has many studies on how different rewards giving patterns affect motivation. As far as I remember, the least detrimental is task-noncontingent rewards (giving "reward" for just "showing up", basically). The most detrimental to motivation is competitive-contingent (give reward to those who outperform others).
- atchoo 4y ago
  It sounds insane that you need "rewards and punishments" for one human to be nice to another. Friendliness should be a natural by product of happy people in a good workplace. I'd suggest a different tack, analyse what in the system has led to one person to be unfriendly to another, and solve it without assuming the buck stops with the individual as some type of perfectly free agent in a skinner box. Proper pay, proper healthcare, leaders that lead by demonstration and treat colleagues with respect and a business that does not lead to angry customers by being scummy... are just table stakes for example.
BuckyBeaver 4y ago
The no-tipping/fair-pay policy is good, but not accepting cash is bullshit.
csunbird 4y ago
A sign that says “We pay our staff fairly, tips are not required” could be a good advertisement for your shop!
collyw 4y ago
> and we don't accept cash either Can I ask why not? I see the rise of CBDCs as a threat to democracy (governments able to monitor and control what you spend your money on) and cash as a vital tool in a fight against that. Though as a European I always find American tipping culture quite insane. Nothing wrong with tipping for good service, but they way it seems expected in the US is very off putting
lofaszvanitt 4y ago
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V4sbYy0WdGQ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V4sbYy0WdGQ
shawn-butler 4y ago
The issue is that I have to trust the proprietor. In my locale it has become common for restaurants to add ‘health & wellness’ surcharges which began as charity/Covid response and of course never went away. It is almost never the case that the restaurant provides any of this to their employees and there is no transparency involved. I honestly see it as a scam to charge higher prices without itemizing properly on the menu. Even if you highlight the wage disparity in signage, I would have no way of knowing whether the information is accurate or just another piece of propaganda.
cykros 4y ago
"Yelp" is the sound a dog makes when you step on its tail. "Review" websites are, to a large portion of the population, complaint websites. By all means, keep an eye on what's being said about you and look for red flags, but don't be that neurotic boss that rides your employees every time a review under 5 stars comes in. The best restaurants around that have stayed for more than a few years often are the ones with 3 stars -- 5 usually just means they're new, not particularly good, and people coming in are adventurous, rather than following what someone advised.
SoftTalker 4y ago
I'm happy to tip when I'm receiving actual table service. I don't tip for a strictly carry-out or over-the-counter sale (e.g. coffee shop). Even in Europe I tip servers and bartenders. It just seems nice. I've never had one turn it down.
noduerme 4y ago
Generational divide here. I used to work at Cacao coffeehouse in west LA in the 90s. Only took cash. Also, basically made no money other than tips. I moved to NYC and waited tables where there was no pay whatsoever other than tips. That was around when standard tipping went from 15% to 20%. Having worked in the service industry, I usually tip 25-30%, per drink or per meal. But here's the relevant point: When I encounter a place that doesn't allow tipping, I still want to tip, and make sure to tip, because it's for the worker. I absolutely loathe the new system that's come into trendy restaurants in Seattle where gratuity is supposedly included. That's a skinflint way for a restaurant to raise their prices and assure you that their workers are being paid, without you as the customer having any say (or direct contact) with the workers. You may put up QR code menus and try to isolate the service staff from the customers, and eliminate tipping, but does that make happier employees? Does it make happier customers? Tipping serves several purposes. One of them is to get the employees to give customers who tip well better service. Sometimes at the expense of an extra ounce from a whisky bottle, sometimes just with more personal care. The insertion of the management into the situation - trying to say it's good for customers and employees - strikes me as a very false, self-serving line of bullshit. And from everyone I know in the service industry, it seems like it quickly turns into a racket against them as well. My prediction is that by 2025, places that eliminated tipping will be seen as just as infamous as any of the scammy disruptors of the tech industry in the 2010s; the practice of banning tips will be seen as disreputable, and life will return to its natural equilibrium where customers pay extra for good service.
- franciscop 4y ago
  Why do you expect as a customer to have anything to say about a worker getting paid? Do you follow your shoes manufacturing process making sure everyone in the chain is paid properly? I expect the employer to pay properly, otherwise for the employee to take their case to their union/court. This concept/way of thinking seems so strange as a non-American. > My prediction is that by 2025 [...] You do know that for the rest of the world, the CURRENT system of needing tips to make up the pay that the employer does not pay is seen as disreputable, part of the infamous scammy lawless American low-pay healthcare-less work landscape, right? Employers are supposed to pay livable wages, not let random customers make up for it.
xutopia 4y ago
Think of turning things around with a simple sentence on the last screen: "We don't accept tips but gladly accept a smile."
pards 4y ago
> the prices they see on the menu is what they'll actually end up paying Is the sales tax included in the listed price? One of my pet peeves is how "tax and tip" are not included in the displayed prices in Ontario, Canada. I hate having to do arithmetic on every purchase I make. I grew up in Sydney, Australia where what you see is what you pay - tax incl. Tipping is generally not part of the culture because the minimum wage is a livable wage (in most areas).
frankfrankfrank 4y ago
Keep in mind that a far more pernicious and rather evil system is that of the donation receiving “non-profit”. It has over time been exposed and highlighted at various points, but I don’t think it has really at all penetrated the consciousness of the general public as to what a vast majority of “non-profits are, borderline con-jobs; and that’s being generous. I won’t go into explaining and outlining exactly why that is for the time being, but suffice it to say that I have personal knowledge of the extremely manipulative industry that “non-profits” are. But I get it, some will not want to believe me, I mean they’re called “non-profits” and profits are bad, right? The point of my caution is essentially this, what you are trying to avoid by stopping tipping, you will only far undo by essentially making “non-profit” executives and their friends and family rich instead of that money going to your employees.
- ethbr0 4y ago
  Non-profit are required to file financial disclosures, available via the IRS. https://apps.irs.gov/app/eos/ https://apps.irs.gov/app/eos/ You're looking for Lines 15-17 in Part I of Form 990. The information's trivially available, if you're concerned.
brk 4y ago
If customers rate their order and interaction with the barista to be satisfactory, a bonus payment will be made to the baristas on shift. As a customer, please just leave well enough alone. I'd really prefer to just leave a tip if I'm going to be gently shamed into leaving reviews to make sure your employees somehow get the wages they were led to believe they would earn. I would go a bit out of my way to frequent any non-tipping coffee shop/restaurant. And I'm quite happy to pay a higher price in the menu items to reflect the fact that the business isn't shifting some of their payroll burden to me in lieu of realistic pricing.
- cptskippy 4y ago
  But with his system, he gets to charge you extra and can deny staff bonuses. It's like stealing tips but more legal.
jononomo 4y ago
I agree with others that you should not introduce a rating system or suggest giving to charity. If no one complains about an employee and you don't notice anything bad, then just take that to be a rating of "satisfactory".
flanbiscuit 4y ago
There was a restaurant that opened near my old apartment (literally on my block) that started off with no tipping. It was a great fancy pizza place. Loved going there. Fast forward about 5 years, we've moved a few subway stops away so didn't go there as often (also the pandemic). We go back in 2021 and we come to find out as we pay that there is a tip line on their receipt. Never truly found out why but I wonder if it was hard to find or retain staff that can work at similar, or better, caliber restaurants and make more money via tips. From comments in their Yelp reviews it looks like they started taking tips before the pandemic so that wasn't the cause. I hope you'll be able to continue not taking tips because I really wish we'd abolish this practice. Good luck with your cafe and I would love to try it out next time I'm in LA!
jmorenoamor 4y ago
I would not run after anyone or fight my customers. Just put it in a jar and twice a year donate it to a good cause.
jpcfl 4y ago
I tried this when I started my popup restaurant. I rolled taxes into my prices, and didn’t ask for tip when collecting with Square. I did this because I love the simplicity of dining in Europe, where you pay exactly the price you see, and don’t get guilt tripped at the register. My customers complained that my prices were too high. So, I lowered my prices, added tax, then asked for a tip. About 50% of people tip, so my profits have actually gone up on average after this adjustment. People seem to be buying more, too. I hate it, but this model seems to work better from a business perspective, despite it being a worse customer experience (subjective, I know). How do you train your customers not to have sticker shock? Do I need to hang a banner that says “TAX AND TIP INCLUDED IN ALL PRICES” in comic sans?
- notch656c 4y ago
  It would be simple for me. I would refuse to go to your restaurant because dealing with multiple systems is too much work for my feeble mind. And my wife tells me I'm better with math than the common person. Your system is better. But it's special. Special is bad because I don't like having to do things X different ways for X different restaraunts. I would rather pay a little more and not have to remember the quarks of your restaurant. I am also just trained to tip so I will feel icky leaving your restaurant no matter if you are paying them a fair amount already. So if you charge more money to include the tip I will still feel obliged to tip anyway and I will leave with the experience your restaurant is too expensive and not come back. In short I think you've done the right thing. Don't fight the mob, embrace it.
crakhamster01 4y ago
Curious to hear your thoughts on this? [0] It's a post from Eric Huang - he's a chef based out of NYC and recently wrote about why his restaurant has decided to accept tips (while acknowledging that it's a bad system). It's a long read, but his point about more established hospitality groups/restaurateurs trying and failing to adopt a non-tipping model resonated with me. [0] https://www.instagram.com/p/CnozdBwu0pM/ https://www.instagram.com/p/CnozdBwu0pM/
aagha 4y ago
I thought accepting cash was mandatory, but I was mistaken: https://www.federalreserve.gov/faqs/currency_12772.htm https://www.federalreserve.gov/faqs/currency_12772.htm
snowflakeandrey 4y ago
Compared to US tipped-staff service, non-tipped staff in Japan seem a lot more genuine in their desire to help. It seems a matter of culture and professional pride to be provide excellent service, which leads to a significantly more thorough experience -- being that nice in the context of a tip would seem pushy and awkward.
zeekerbeek 4y ago
There is a brewery in my town that does the same thing. They do accept cash and any "tips" (which is any amount over the total) goes to their charity of the month. On their cc entry system, its never shown to the customer so there is never that awkward tipping part you see on a lot of POS systems now. If the customer asks, they say that they don't take tips and if they'd like to leave one in cash, it will all go towards their charity that month. By doing this, they appease the customer who wants to leave one and don't get in a back and forth with them over tips.

bradwood 4y ago

Japan has been doing it like this for years. And it's much better. Pay people properly, and encourage them to be the best they can be (even for jobs that are so-called "unskilled") and then everyone's a winner.

Renaud 4y ago
Not just Japan. Basically most of the world except Noth America pay their waiters wages that don't depend on tips. Sure some places allow additional tipping, but it's not a mandatory fee and the workers don't have to get it to make a living.
- jandrewrogers 4y ago
  The mandatory minimum wage where I live is $18.69/hr, which is higher than the median wage in many European countries. Any tips or mandatory service charges are always in addition to this and many waiters make more than the minimum wage. Replacing tipping with a 20% mandatory service charge -- tried many times here -- results in the employees earning less money, empirically. Eliminating tipping is unpopular with employees since it is effectively a pay cut. Proponents of "no tipping" policies in the US are not going to be successful until they address the elephant in the room of reduced pay for employees. Unlike in Europe, US employees know how much money they earn with tipping.
  - Renaud 4y ago
    >The mandatory minimum wage where I live is $18.69/hr, which is higher than the median wage in many European countries. That may true in raw numbers but is it still true when you consider that a European worker will have coverage for health, retirement, paid annual leave, paid medical leave, will have access to unemployment benefits, will get subsidised lunches (in some countries) and will be protected by laws that enforce overtime pay and their rights to not be fired without justifiable cause. Raw numbers are not the full picture.
  - autophagian 4y ago
    Generally, minimum wages are lower for tipped professions than non-tipped for this reason. Assuming you're talking about Seattle, which is the only place I could find with an $18.69/hr minimum wage, tipped employees make $16.50 in comparison [0]. [0]: https://www.seattle.gov/laborstandards/ordinances/minimum-wage https://www.seattle.gov/laborstandards/ordinances/minimum-wa...
    - ztrww 4y ago
      what about the entire state of California which has a higher population than most European countries?
    - jandrewrogers 4y ago
      In Seattle, waiters at many local restaurants and bars anecdotally seem to clear about ~$80k/year, so the minimum wage is kind of moot for most of them. I have several friends that work in the industry who have strong opinions on the matter. The tipping issue in Seattle isn't about a living wage, they already have that, it is about maximizing their income. After all, who doesn't want to maximize their income? The economic structure and dynamics of it are fascinating. What proponents of "no tipping" schemes fail to recognize is that it is against the interest of employees in many cases, even if it is often positioned otherwise.

bilsbie 4y ago

We had a no tipping restaurant we used to go to and the service was reliably terrible. Hopefully the rating system will work but I’d say you do need some kind of system. On the other hand Chick-fil-A is able to make their employees act friendly. I wonder how they do it. Finally I do wish you’d accept cash just for people that want to preserve their privacy.

jmugan 4y ago
I'd had bad service lately at a lot of places that require tips.
jacktribe 4y ago
Cash will tie up an additional employee behind the counter. One of the reasons we are able to not accept tips and pay fair wages instead, is because we don't need a person at the register. And while you can use that person for other tasks when there is no one in line, they do need to glove up each time they may handle a food item. Also, in LA cash is a safety issue if you plan on staying open late when traffic is low. To facilitate anonymous payments, we will accept crypto soon.
- temprose 4y ago
  how does handling crypto work, do you exchange it for USD daily in order to avoid fluctuations in the value of crypto?
- ramphastidae 4y ago
  It seems like promoting a fairer society is a priority for you, given your focus on paying fair wages. That’s great! Please consider extending that desire to serving people who do not have credit cards or bank accounts (or crypto …) Plenty of them exist and like coffee too.
  - kevin_thibedeau 4y ago
    NYC had to put a stop to the cashless trend because it is unfair to only offer services to those eligible for banking.

akomtu 4y ago

If you show the full price with taxes upfront, that's an astonishing level of integrity. One idea is to print qr codes on coffee cups: customers can scan those and leave anonymous feedback later.

jacktribe 4y ago
Taxes are included. We might do the QR for customers that did not order using the app on their phone. We're printing stickers anyway, using the Star Micronics SDK which makes QR code printing a breeze.
- anonymouse008 4y ago
  Gotta say, love seeing the 'hack on my own rig' mentality applied to coffee shops. Curious to know how your culture views to-go orders? Based on the YouTube short (place looks awesome btw), I don't think the vibe is grab and go - but if it is, how are you handling the tickets? Just a separate Star for the togos? Nice getting that working, too - I'm stuck in a regional rep loop trying to get access to ours.
  - jacktribe 4y ago
    Roughly half of the customers do head out as soon as the order is ready, especially in the morning. We print stickers regardless of to-stay or to-go because it helps us keep track of fulfilled items, and you can easily pass a sticker to a colleague if you need help with an order.
oefrha 4y ago
> If you show the full price with taxes upfront, that's an astonishing level of integrity. It’s funny, what you see is what you pay doesn’t require an astonishing level of integrity in much (most?) of the world, it’s just standard practice; instead, tacking on hidden fees not on the price tag would be unthinkable.
- TylerE 4y ago

sunsetMurk 4y ago

where's the coffee shop?

jacktribe 4y ago
Awakening Coffee in Inglewood

dang 4y ago

You should write a longer piece about your coffee shop! and the process behind it. If you do, you should submit it to HN - and if you do that you should email us (hn@ycombinator.com) because we might put it in the second-chance pool (https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26998308 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26998308).

harrisi 4y ago
Just wanted to say, please include some technical information if possible. I've spent time with and looked into developing for Clover and set up other POS systems. I've also tutored people pursuing their CS degree while bartending that want to make their own system. I'm very interested in this space since it seems impenetrable. Small businesses can't take too many risks and trying to sell a tailor-made POS seems impossible. Obviously the situation is different, though.
- jacktribe 4y ago
  We've had a few customers that have shown real interest in the POS system because they are small business owners too, and split their time between the register and everything else they have to do behind the counter. I've started coding it only 5 days before opening, and it's paired with a kitchen app that shows & prints the orders, recipes, etc. They're both very raw and I'm working on v2 right now. Definitely a space worth exploring. I understand the needs of bartenders, baristas, etc. a lot better now that I'm behind the counter.
  - carlbarrdahl 4y ago
    Really cool! Would love to hear more because I'm working on a few concepts in this space. I'm trying to find the core value proposition and looking for people to collaborate with. Here are two proof of concepts I'm building: https://botto-app.vercel.app/merchant/sattvic_vegan https://botto-app.vercel.app/merchant/sattvic_vegan https://q-link.xyz/q/cld1u6ihc0001mq08j15yhog9 https://q-link.xyz/q/cld1u6ihc0001mq08j15yhog9 If this sounds interesting, please email me at my username @ gmail.com!
- 4y ago

eric-hu 4y ago

I'm intrigued and would got out of my way to come to this place on principle.

peterhadlaw 4y ago

Please accept cash. We don't need to encourage credit card companies to track our purchases and give them the tools to control who can and cannot do business.

tjpnz 4y ago
Why would a credit card company do that?
- hgsgm 4y ago
  For profit and compliance with authoritarian government.
- recursive 4y ago
  I really don't know. But they must have reasons I don't know about.
- patrick451 4y ago
  We can only speculate as to their internal motivations. But why doesn't really matter when we can watch them actively do it.
- kevingadd 4y ago
  Because they can, and people with influence know they can. Then people with influence force the credit card companies to do it. Not hypothetical, in actuality
- comte7092 4y ago
  Are you actually concerned with their motivations, or just unaware that this is a common practice already?
lxgr 4y ago
I'm a big fan of card payments myself, but I agree that cash should be accepted universally, until unbanking/underbanking is completely solved and there is a cash-analogous private way to pay. Besides the accessibility issue, not nearly all activities or situations making somebody want to transact anonymously are illegal (just consider e.g. people in unsafe domestic situations trying to get help/away but not having their own card). I believe we could strike a pretty good balance with some research, engineering, and product development, avoiding both possibilities for tax evasion and financial crimes on one extreme, and creating a complete financial panopticon on the other.

korroziya 4y ago

>and we don't accept cash either You're part of the problem, not the solution.

datatrashfire 4y ago

As someone who was in a service role and subject to an opt in post interaction survey, I don't believe systems like this are effective. They select for Karens with unreasonable demands. They use the survey to retaliate against the employee by leaving bad scores.

kelnos 4y ago
Yeah, I think the ridiculousness of the Uber/Lyft rating system (anything but a 5 means the driver should be fired) tells us that customer feedback of this sort is less than useless.

hedora 4y ago

Review / feedback programs are terrible (5/5: would f*ck over soulless management again). If the whole point of eliminating tips is to treat the workers fairly, why not institute some sort of profit share, or monthly bonus based on YoY revenue growth? Either way, you should accept cash.

photochemsyn 4y ago
I think profit share is not a bad idea, but to make it fair, it should also involve some degree of risk sharing. Counting up the costs of opening a coffee establishment (is it a roaster as well?), it's not as high as some other businesses but there's rent, equipment, seats and tables, etc. If every employee and the owner was a member of something like a LLC, what would the buy-in be? I have no idea, maybe $10K each or something like that? Most of that would be lost if the business failed, so it would provide a nice incentive, and once cleared, a steady stream of income. Of course a short-term employee (summer, tourist season, etc.) would probably not be interested in that arrangement, and would prefer a good steady wage.
- kqr 4y ago
  Employees spend half their waking hours at work. That's a huge opportunity cost. I don't get where the idea comes from that they take no risk!
- carlosjobim 4y ago
  Profit sharing can be things such as giving a bonus when sales are good. No need to make things as complicated as possible. Lots of other sectors give bonuses, restaurants/hospitality almost never.

barbariangrunge 4y ago

I wish you would take cash. Every other method of payment gets tracked and is used to profile people

kenjackson 4y ago
You can buy a gift credit/debit card with cash and use that. Those normally work.
- sneak 4y ago
  Those are tracked, too, and can't be obtained without strong identity.
  - skeeter2020 4y ago
    ...and often have expiry dates and huge service fees
  - iancarroll 4y ago
    Disposable gift cards are widely available in the US that will run as debit/credit without any need for identity verification. They are disposable, though, and as the other comment mentions aren't very economical (~1% outright in fees if you buy in $500 increments).
    - kenjackson 4y ago
      Amex has gift cards with no expiry and no processing fees after purchase. The price on a $3000 card is $5.95. Which is about 0.2%.
      - Larrikin 4y ago
        Is this only through a web portal that is tied directly to your bank account? Do you have a link? Such a card, if it exist, would quickly be the most popular card on all churning and credit card reward forums. Also if it exist but requires a bank account or Amex credit card to purchase, it goes back again to being pointless for the people who can't get banking services and rely on cash.

dumpsterdiver 4y ago

> Also, some customers seem to think that the screen froze at the very end because it didn't ask for a tip. Haha, I think that's totally reasonable of them. As a consumer I would appreciate a notification informing me that I couldn't tip, no matter how much I thought they deserved it. Edit: I wanted to add that there are a lot of places we're not expected to tip at whose employees deserve it just as much as the ones working at the places we are expected to tip at. Tipping culture may be out of control, but a lot of times people deserve a tip for providing exceptional service. That's our way of validating them and saying, "you're going to make it."

taberiand 4y ago
Maybe a section on the payment page for adding a tip with a single radio button already selected, titled "No tip required, we pay our servers well"
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
- bmitc 4y ago
  It should say "no tips accepted".
sacrosancty 4y ago
[dead]

djbusby 4y ago

There is one like this in Ballard, WA. They have small signage about how it works. And also little pamphlets about both Fair Trade and Fair Wage policies. Ballard Coffee Works, corner of Leary & Market.

expensive_news 4y ago

Somewhat of a meta-comment but I’m shocked at how many people are complaining about you not taking cash. Has anyone ever walked out of your coffee shop because they only had cash on them? I can’t remember the last time I paid or even saw someone pay cash for anything.

EVa5I7bHFq9mnYK 4y ago
If a place doesn't accept cash, I leave. Cash is one of our last remaining bastions of freedom. I would gladly pay by card, if those cards were anonymous, refillable with cash. But these do not exist anymore, even for small amounts. They insist they must know your every last $0.50 transaction.
- seanmcdirmid 4y ago
  If a place doesn’t accept credit cards, I leave also. I just don’t carry cash anymore. To each their own. They mostly do it for safety reasons. Being a target for being robbed for drug money just gets annoying after awhile. Getting rid of cash gets rid of that risk. They might lose some customers, but losing workers to stress about being robbed is a bigger problem these days.
  - mikhael28 4y ago
    It also costs money to handle cash. You have to count it at the end of the shift. And store it. And transport it to a bank to deposit it, which takes time ($$) and resources (gas, etc)
    - kelnos 4y ago
      I also expect banks charge larger businesses that deal with a lot of cash for the privilege of getting the bank to handle that cash for them.
- int0x2e 4y ago
  I get your point, and I do think it's great for many people that we don't lose this outright, but I will offer an alternative view - Where I live, there always were a lot of people who don't report their income fully, which means they mostly transact in cash. We have fairly high and progressive taxes, which means that by transacting in cash, some medium to high earners can lower their tax payments significantly. After trying basically everything over many decades, the clear plan by to government is to make cash transactions obsolete as soon as possible. They've been slowly reducing the maximum legal cash transaction size for a while now, but the goal is clearly to get rid of cash. While I worry about people without access to banking (mostly people without documentation, but also the poor), I think they're on a course to resolve that too, and I for one would be very happy to not have to pay that much in taxes while seeing others cheat the system and reap the benefits...

csomar 4y ago

> and give customers an option to donate to a charity if they still wish to part with additional money. Please no. That's how it usually starts. It was with small change but now McDonalds harasses you every time you make an order to round up for some charity I never heard about. I'd donate to charities on my own. Needless to say I avoid these places like the plague.

mhh__ 4y ago
[flagged]
- Dylan16807 4y ago
  You can avoid something like a much worse thing, that's not a problem. Avoid being insensitive with your bad thing reference, but "the plague" is not insensitive. Also the plague responds well to antibiotics.
rideontime 4y ago
You've never heard of the Ronald McDonald House?
- skeeter2020 4y ago
  At least McDonalds covers all the overhead and gives 100% of money donated to Ronald McDonald house.
eredengrin 4y ago
> I'd donate to charities on my own. But lots of people won't think to do so, and it can raise awareness too. And in terms of payment processing fees it is probably much more efficient to include a small amount extra in a larger preexisting transaction and pool it up across customers than if everyone were to go out and donate $0.50 or whatever on their own.
- TylerE 4y ago
  The problem is the store charaties are always awful. I donate to local charities that actually do good work with it (Non-affiliated-beyond-being-donor plug: https://www.nuci.org/ https://www.nuci.org/), not to bloated “awareness” charaties like Komen.

TheDesolate0 4y ago

[dead]

mc32 4y ago

This sounds great. I'm getting fed up with prompts for tips from places where tips are not customary (non-food) but also I am not a fan of seeking feedback from customers because they may over scrutinize their interactions with service workers --though presumably it averages out over time.

ddyevf635372 4y ago

There isn't any tip in New Zealand and Australia. Everybody get proper salary. The service is always exceptional. How is that possible?

luxuryballs 4y ago
culture/demographic
- wyclif 4y ago
  It's difficult to explain the cause. You can't really account for it by a simple tipping/no tipping divide. In other countries that don't do tipping, you'll end up wishing they did because the service is so abysmal. You can't get decent service or expect a good waiter or waitress, because nobody is motivated to do the job well.
  - lovemenot 4y ago
    You must have not been to Japan.
    - midoridensha 4y ago
      He's never been outside the US.
      - wyclif 4y ago
        Ah, that's bullshit. I've been all over the world and I'm guessing by your comment I'm more travelled than you. Currently, I'm in the Philippines, where there's no tipping. Go ahead, come down here on a trip and see what happens. No tipping. And the service is abysmal because nobody has any incentive to be an excellent waiter or waitress. What you don't understand is that tipping became a thing in order to reward good service and provide a decent income to service workers. It's not perfect, but it's there for a reason.

fbelzile 4y ago

> We will probably need to highlight that we pay a higher wage for baristas & cooks to account for the lack of tips, and give customers an option to donate to a charity if they still wish to part with additional money. Yes, after the total confirmation (including tax if you can), where you'd normally be asked to tip, you should see if it's possible to display the no tip policy and higher wage explanation. You could also tell customers that your business is donating to certain cause at this point. Just don't pass on the burden of deciding whether or not to donate to your customers. Another option is to dedicate certain profits from a specific product to a cause and note that on your menu.

kingkawn 4y ago

Just let people tip if they want instead of making a moral high ground out of it

viraptor 4y ago
I'm not sure if they're taking a moral high ground exactly, but I do appreciate a business taking a stand against tipping. It's bad for everyone in the end - I'd love it if it died soon.

sneak 4y ago

Unbanked people don't have bank cards. New York City has a law preventing businesses from refusing cash because only accepting cards is discriminatory.

inetknght 4y ago

> we don't accept cash either. Not accepting tips is one thing. But not accepting cash means you will never have me as a customer. Edit: I've already walked away from a dozen different food places in airports because of this kind of trash: please install this app, can't pay in cash, can't see a menu without scanning a QR code, use an iPad with shitty touchscreen that I can barely see or use... I just wanted to order some food and pay with legal tender.

bongoman37 4y ago
Yea, basically this is a data collection front end. I too hate where you can't pay without cash though I'll bend if no other alternatives are avaialble.
Freak_NL 4y ago
Mandatory digital ordering and refusing cash just radiates customer hostility to me. It's the opposite of hospitality.
- musingsole 4y ago
  Decisions made for the convenience of the owner, not the customers nor the employees.
BuckyBeaver 4y ago
It's also illegal if they give you the item before you pay. Cash is "legal for all debts.' So if they let you establish a debt (by, for example, drinking some coffee), they must let you settle it in cash,
- inetknght 4y ago
  Cash is legal for all debts but I don't believe cash is required to be accepted. I'm no lawyer though...
- kibwen 4y ago
  "Contrary to common misconception, there is no federal law stating that a private business, a person, or a government organization must accept currency or coins for payment. Private businesses are free to create their own policies on whether they accept cash, unless there is a specific state law which says otherwise. For example, a bus line may prohibit payment of fares in cents or dollar bills. In addition, movie theaters, convenience stores, and gas stations may refuse to accept large denomination currency as a matter of policy or safety." "The principal purpose of [the Coinage Act of 1965] is to ensure the nationwide acceptance of U.S. currency, consistent with constitutional language that reserves to Congress the power to create a uniform currency that holds the same value throughout the United States. While the statute provides that U.S. money is legal tender that may be accepted for the payment of debts, it does not require acceptance of cash payments, nor does it provide that restrictions cannot be imposed upon the acceptance of cash." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Legal_tender#United_States https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Legal_tender#United_States

patrick451 4y ago

> and we don't accept cash either. I would not patronize your business.

SilasX 4y ago
Did you miss the six other comments that made a more substantive version of that objection?

throwaway292939 4y ago

Why don't you set the default to be $0 tip, and make anything else optional? This seems to go out of the way to fight tipping culture and seems to cause more confusion than necessary.

TylerE 4y ago

I find forced (or even strongly encouraged) rating even worse than tipping, especially given the inevitable anything less than 5 stars might as well be zero attitude.

andirk 4y ago
I try to almost always tip in cash which means I mark 0% tip, and I never give star reviews. One exception for a review is the smiley face vs sad face at airport restrooms. I've never marked sad face yet but if there was an issue I would gladly and that will simply let staff know there is something amiss in that spot.
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
doktorhladnjak 4y ago
Agreed. These customer satisfaction surveys where anything less than 5 stars or 10/10 is a fail is just as dystopian as tipping culture.
xp84 4y ago
Seriously. It's like if you had an insecure partner who incessantly asks you 10x a day "How do I look?" and if you say ANYTHING other than "FANTASTIC!" you know they're going to react really bad. Except it's worse since if you ever give an honest answer it's not you they'll berate, the bosses will just flagellate their underlings who might not even be truly responsible for the "low" rating.
Freak_NL 4y ago
Always rate negatively, and if possible supply that you are doing so because rudely getting asked to rate them at an inopportune moment sours your experience however great it may have been.

ilyt 4y ago

That seems like a whole lot better system. > I do believe that the incentive tips provide for employees to "act" friendly to customers can be transferred over into a review/feedback program, which is what we will be testing out. If customers rate their order and interaction with the barista to be satisfactory, a bonus payment will be made to the baristas on shift. Once we introduce this, I'll share the results. Might as well go full hog and add rating to food/drinks they ordered. Not to judge the person doing the service, just get a feel for what your customers enjoyed and what they didn't.

gymbeaux 4y ago

A rare-interesting UX problem with people thinking the screen froze. I guess it’s easily solved, but there are surely many ways to solve it.

jacktribe 4y ago
It's very interesting observing people use the app in person, as opposed to privately on their phone where you have no idea how they interact with it. For instance the Stripe Terminal reader is immediately to the right of the iPad POS, but a good number of people don't know where to tap the card. I need to design an arrow on the checkout screen for that because I've seen many people tapping the card to the iPad screen. I think Square got them used to that.
- carabiner 4y ago
  It's 2023 but I still think a lot of iPad based POS have a poor ending transaction UX. It needs to be a cute, super clear and simple "All done! Turn the screen around." It's jarring to sometimes be dumped at the item selection menu that is meant for the cashier. Or it just says "Thanks!" without a direction to put the screen back how it was.

kbos87 4y ago

I am really of two minds about this. On one hand, yes, the suggestion that I leave a tip and the amount suggested has ballooned to a ridiculous level in some businesses. On the other hand, I recognize that there are plenty of businesses that still don't offer a way to tip at all (Starbucks until very recently), and more importantly, that none of these employees make anywhere near a living wage. Having worked service industry jobs and found my way out, I can't help but thinking that most of these jobs are merely dark patterns that take advantage of people who can't or won't demand what they actually should be paid. The unfortunate conclusion I've arrived at is that US consumers simply aren't willing to pay the true price for many of the things they enjoy on a day to day basis. Just one example is that their daily coffee is subsidized through the misery of minimum wage coffee shop employees. You say you pay a "higher wage" - what does that actually equate to for someone working 40 hours a week?

LudwigNagasena 4y ago
> Just one example is that their daily coffee is subsidized through the misery of minimum wage coffee shop employees. Your everything is "subsidized" by low wages of people living in third world countries. US coffee shop employees aren't quite near the bottom of that hierarchy.
- kbos87 4y ago
  100% true but doesn’t invalidate their situation. If we follow that logic to its end, there’s always someone in worse shape who is also further removed from those who have the ability to make a difference.
  - LudwigNagasena 4y ago
    Do you think you have no ability to make a difference for them?
- kbos87 4y ago
  I don’t disagree, but are you suggesting that we shouldn’t act to solve a problem just because it isn’t the worst possible problem? Feels like a convenient out.

bigtunacan 4y ago

About 5.5% of Americans don't have bank accounts and pay primarily with cash. Most of these people are impoverished minorities, specifically blacks and Latinos. Not accepting cash is a pretty discriminatory practice.

mikhael28 4y ago
Handling cash is a hassle. It carries risk in terms of losing it, and it takes time to count it and transport/deposit it into a bank. All things that eat into your profit margin, in an industry that has crazy low margin. You a hater.
- Jataman606 4y ago
  How much money you lose by counting money and depositing it into a bank?
  - mikhael28 4y ago
    It takes time to do those things. Time is money. It takes time to reconcile in a double entry accounting system the cash you received in business operations. Software does it automatically.
  - akvadrako 4y ago
    That depends on many factors of course, but I've seen it ballparked around 2-4%. You need safes, cash registers, insurance, etc. But credit cards in the US are also like 3% and come with additional risks.
  - nicbou 4y ago
    Where I live there is also a bank fee for dealing with large amounts of cash.

affgrff2 4y ago

I think this is cool and hope your location gets the HN effect today aka real world ddos :) Just to dump an idea: Maybe instead of using a scale based rating, you could experiment with something that has not a clear maximum value to prevent the all 5-star rating effect described by others. The only thing that directly comes to my mind would be a button, that the user has to hold until the time matches the perceived rating.

mnky9800n 4y ago

The review feedback program sounds like over engineered nonsense. You get metrics which you think represents customer experience which you can use to evaluate and motivate your employees to act a certain in this coffee fueled skinner box designed to train baristas. But the data won't represent that, the interaction with a barista is only a small fraction of what makes a coffee shop good (first should be good coffee, second probably a nice place to sit). And the obvious conclusion is that the barista tells the customer, "if you want to leave a tip please give me a 5 star rating, my salary is based on ratings." So now you just have tipping with extra steps. If all you care about is rewarding employees who are good, Why not just do profit sharing for employees who been around longer then x months?

jacktribe 4y ago
While profit sharing may work as an incentive for shift managers or store managers, in the absence of tips most baristas will expect some other immediate bonus pay, preferably based on a measurable metric that doesn't depend on factors beyond the barista's control, such as cost of goods sold, supply chain constraints, rent hikes, recessions, etc. If you occasionally ask the customer in-app "how was your service today?" with a simple thumbs up/down option, and you associate the order's rating with the barista behind the counter, you can get a good metric on their interaction with customers. You'd probably want to use the median and not the mean in order to remove any outliers.
- mnky9800n 4y ago
  I don't feel like you responded to my comment. If you are paying a reasonable wage, profit sharing is a bonus. You are creating tipping with extra steps.
  - jacktribe 4y ago
    Profit sharing only works if you stick around long enough. In the service industry, and especially amongst young people, it's common to pick up a job like this for a few months and make some money, then move on to something else. And that's okay, not everyone wants to make a career out of making coffee. It's still a good formative experience to have, while earning some money, and there's no reason why you shouldn't do it right and get rewarded for it. But profit sharing won't work for someone that is around for a summer. For instance that person could benefit from any upswing caused by previous employees, but if they don't add a positive contribution to the customer experience themselves, they won't be around for the long-term impact. And if you don't give them an incentive at all for the first few months, then you're back to square one. Or even worse: they could negatively impact the profit sharing of employees that have been around for the long run. Ultimately, money is a motivator and pretending like it's not does not make tipping go away. The problem with tipping as I see it, is that it masquerades the real cost of doing business.

klintcho 4y ago

That is awesome! When you say: what the price on the menu is that is what the customer pays; does it include sales tax as well? If so, def a very happy development and pretty much revolutionary for being in the US. If not, is it something you could consider doing? I think it would be the next natural step :) Disclaimer: I’m Swedish, all prices in Sweden everywhere is always including everything, you’ll never pay more than what you see.

lozenge 4y ago

You should collect feedback to determine when you are understaffed or alert you to uncleanliness, not to reward individual baristas. Give your employees the same stress free and untransactional experience you are trying to provide to the customers.

kqr 4y ago

I would be concerned about any sort of individual bonus directly linked to the service just rendered. That tends to work against cooperation and creativity and problem solving. Only when you are unencumbered by incentives can you afford to experiment and learn from your mistakes and get better at what you do. (See e.g. Pink's Drive for more details on motivation.) It's especially bad if it's based on some variant of having scores "above average" or whatever, because that ends up being a lottery. At that point it's better to just establish a lottery among the employees. If you really have to do individual bonuses, I think it's better to take a leaf from Deming and only grant it for truly (statistically verified) outperformance. Someone else suggested collective bonuses (e.g. profit sharing). That aligns incentives nicely: it is slightly lagged, meaning you can afford to experiment and learn. It's also not individual, so it fosters collaboration. It's still something of a lottery, of course, but one decided by the customers, not by a manager.

nicbou 4y ago
The rest of the working world is unencumbered by incentives. They still show up.
- kqr 4y ago
  Far from it -- many professionals, particularly in sales and finance, have bonuses tied to individual performance metrics. That's just as bad.

raverbashing 4y ago

> Also, some customers seem to think that the screen froze at the very end because it didn't ask for a tip. That sounds like the end of transaction screen can be improved Adding a message like "All Done" then "We're a tip free restaurant" go a long way

shellfishgene 4y ago

Here I thought it's nice that an American business does not force their employees to be over the top nice all the time to the customers even if they're having a bad day by making their wage depend on it, but then I read the last part...

robomartin 4y ago

> I've just opened a coffee shop in Los Angeles last month You are brave. A friend opened a coffee shop elsewhere in LA County a few years ago. The LA County permit and inspection process was nothing less than a utopian nightmare. I have done lots of construction projects myself and have learned to absolutely detest that part of the experience (going to the DMV is actually better). The usual outcome is that projects end-up costing a ton more and take much longer to complete. The issues, in my experience, rarely have to do with actual safety concerns, etc. It's mostly about process and check-boxes. I hope your experience was better.

conductr 4y ago

I’m in process of opening an all you can eat pancake shop and doing the same. I’m thinking of charging a small ~$x per table fee for bussing tables. Refundable if they self bus. Probably would always refund it unless they wreck the table. Not sure I want to administer it, or if it would be perceived as a punitive thing and get bad reviews. Just an idea I had while coding the self checkout app. Also, pancakes are made by a robot

TylerE 4y ago
That would definitely mKe me not-a-customer. There’s a lot more to something BEING clean than LOOKING clean.
- conductr 4y ago
  Oh yeah I’d still clean it. Syrup is too messy to trust them. But it discourages people completely trashing the place is my thought. Difference of wiping things down quickly and having to bring out the broom and mop and spend 10 minutes on it.
tomcam 4y ago
Where? I’d love to hear more about this journey too.
- conductr 4y ago
  Dallas area. Early days right now but I’ll post some content if it shapes up.
Archipelagia 4y ago
If you want to go thay route, it might be better instead to add a % to all the prices, and then at the end give it back if someone left a clean table. Something like "as a small token of gratitude for leaving the place clean and saving us time, here's 1% of your price back!" One is punitive, other one is rewarding.
- 4y ago

zoover2020 4y ago

> (I've custom coded an iOS app w/ Stripe Terminal for it) Most HN thing I've read all day. Sounds awesome. Good luck!

lynx23 4y ago

I am blind. Would I be able to use your iPad setup to order something in your shop, or is the "lets make everything fancy" setup maybe exclusionary?

adenozine 4y ago
[flagged]
- frameset 4y ago
  Would the Americans With Disabilities act apply here?
  - adenozine 4y ago
    The ADA is mostly environmental issues. By that I mean if your business has proper ramps, braille on signage for ingress/egress/restrooms/hard copy menus. It doesn’t mandate that a business must prioritize disabled customers or even that every person with a disability be able to use the service. Again, car companies are the canonical excepted business, but the ADA cannot force you to serve a customer that your business is not right for. I’m not necessarily advocating for either side, I just don’t like the idea of an automated process being disrupted when there’s other places someone with a disability can go for the same service. Doing business is mutual.
    - vegardx 4y ago
      At no point has anyone argued that people with disability should be prioritized over any other customers. Just that they should be able to get the same service as anyone else. How you think a car dealership is equivalent to a coffee shop is beyond me. That said, I can assure you that a blind person would be able to buy a car, if they wanted to. That they can't legally operate the vehicle isn't the business of the car manufacturer or dealership. You are clearly advocating for one specific side. You've only argued for one specific side.
      - 4y ago

divan 4y ago

Thank you for sharing your story. Continuing the geek vibe, I believe the best starting point to make sense of inner workings of incentive systems and rewards is SDT - Self-Determination Theory. It's 70+ yr old theory of motivation in psychology that originated in studies of how external rewards (i.e. tips or bonuses) crowd out intrinsic motivation. In other words, if we want employees to act friendly to customers - should we design a system of external motivation (rewards and punishements) or design a system that boost intrinsic motivation for this behaviour. For example, SDT has many studies on how different rewards giving patterns affect motivation. As far as I remember, the least detrimental is task-noncontingent rewards (giving "reward" for just "showing up", basically). The most detrimental to motivation is competitive-contingent (give reward to those who outperform others).

atchoo 4y ago
It sounds insane that you need "rewards and punishments" for one human to be nice to another. Friendliness should be a natural by product of happy people in a good workplace. I'd suggest a different tack, analyse what in the system has led to one person to be unfriendly to another, and solve it without assuming the buck stops with the individual as some type of perfectly free agent in a skinner box. Proper pay, proper healthcare, leaders that lead by demonstration and treat colleagues with respect and a business that does not lead to angry customers by being scummy... are just table stakes for example.

BuckyBeaver 4y ago

The no-tipping/fair-pay policy is good, but not accepting cash is bullshit.

csunbird 4y ago

A sign that says “We pay our staff fairly, tips are not required” could be a good advertisement for your shop!

collyw 4y ago

> and we don't accept cash either Can I ask why not? I see the rise of CBDCs as a threat to democracy (governments able to monitor and control what you spend your money on) and cash as a vital tool in a fight against that. Though as a European I always find American tipping culture quite insane. Nothing wrong with tipping for good service, but they way it seems expected in the US is very off putting

lofaszvanitt 4y ago

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V4sbYy0WdGQ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V4sbYy0WdGQ

shawn-butler 4y ago

The issue is that I have to trust the proprietor. In my locale it has become common for restaurants to add ‘health & wellness’ surcharges which began as charity/Covid response and of course never went away. It is almost never the case that the restaurant provides any of this to their employees and there is no transparency involved. I honestly see it as a scam to charge higher prices without itemizing properly on the menu. Even if you highlight the wage disparity in signage, I would have no way of knowing whether the information is accurate or just another piece of propaganda.

cykros 4y ago

"Yelp" is the sound a dog makes when you step on its tail. "Review" websites are, to a large portion of the population, complaint websites. By all means, keep an eye on what's being said about you and look for red flags, but don't be that neurotic boss that rides your employees every time a review under 5 stars comes in. The best restaurants around that have stayed for more than a few years often are the ones with 3 stars -- 5 usually just means they're new, not particularly good, and people coming in are adventurous, rather than following what someone advised.

SoftTalker 4y ago

I'm happy to tip when I'm receiving actual table service. I don't tip for a strictly carry-out or over-the-counter sale (e.g. coffee shop). Even in Europe I tip servers and bartenders. It just seems nice. I've never had one turn it down.

noduerme 4y ago

Generational divide here. I used to work at Cacao coffeehouse in west LA in the 90s. Only took cash. Also, basically made no money other than tips. I moved to NYC and waited tables where there was no pay whatsoever other than tips. That was around when standard tipping went from 15% to 20%. Having worked in the service industry, I usually tip 25-30%, per drink or per meal. But here's the relevant point: When I encounter a place that doesn't allow tipping, I still want to tip, and make sure to tip, because it's for the worker. I absolutely loathe the new system that's come into trendy restaurants in Seattle where gratuity is supposedly included. That's a skinflint way for a restaurant to raise their prices and assure you that their workers are being paid, without you as the customer having any say (or direct contact) with the workers. You may put up QR code menus and try to isolate the service staff from the customers, and eliminate tipping, but does that make happier employees? Does it make happier customers? Tipping serves several purposes. One of them is to get the employees to give customers who tip well better service. Sometimes at the expense of an extra ounce from a whisky bottle, sometimes just with more personal care. The insertion of the management into the situation - trying to say it's good for customers and employees - strikes me as a very false, self-serving line of bullshit. And from everyone I know in the service industry, it seems like it quickly turns into a racket against them as well. My prediction is that by 2025, places that eliminated tipping will be seen as just as infamous as any of the scammy disruptors of the tech industry in the 2010s; the practice of banning tips will be seen as disreputable, and life will return to its natural equilibrium where customers pay extra for good service.

franciscop 4y ago
Why do you expect as a customer to have anything to say about a worker getting paid? Do you follow your shoes manufacturing process making sure everyone in the chain is paid properly? I expect the employer to pay properly, otherwise for the employee to take their case to their union/court. This concept/way of thinking seems so strange as a non-American. > My prediction is that by 2025 [...] You do know that for the rest of the world, the CURRENT system of needing tips to make up the pay that the employer does not pay is seen as disreputable, part of the infamous scammy lawless American low-pay healthcare-less work landscape, right? Employers are supposed to pay livable wages, not let random customers make up for it.

xutopia 4y ago

Think of turning things around with a simple sentence on the last screen: "We don't accept tips but gladly accept a smile."

pards 4y ago

> the prices they see on the menu is what they'll actually end up paying Is the sales tax included in the listed price? One of my pet peeves is how "tax and tip" are not included in the displayed prices in Ontario, Canada. I hate having to do arithmetic on every purchase I make. I grew up in Sydney, Australia where what you see is what you pay - tax incl. Tipping is generally not part of the culture because the minimum wage is a livable wage (in most areas).

frankfrankfrank 4y ago

Keep in mind that a far more pernicious and rather evil system is that of the donation receiving “non-profit”. It has over time been exposed and highlighted at various points, but I don’t think it has really at all penetrated the consciousness of the general public as to what a vast majority of “non-profits are, borderline con-jobs; and that’s being generous. I won’t go into explaining and outlining exactly why that is for the time being, but suffice it to say that I have personal knowledge of the extremely manipulative industry that “non-profits” are. But I get it, some will not want to believe me, I mean they’re called “non-profits” and profits are bad, right? The point of my caution is essentially this, what you are trying to avoid by stopping tipping, you will only far undo by essentially making “non-profit” executives and their friends and family rich instead of that money going to your employees.

ethbr0 4y ago
Non-profit are required to file financial disclosures, available via the IRS. https://apps.irs.gov/app/eos/ https://apps.irs.gov/app/eos/ You're looking for Lines 15-17 in Part I of Form 990. The information's trivially available, if you're concerned.

brk 4y ago

If customers rate their order and interaction with the barista to be satisfactory, a bonus payment will be made to the baristas on shift. As a customer, please just leave well enough alone. I'd really prefer to just leave a tip if I'm going to be gently shamed into leaving reviews to make sure your employees somehow get the wages they were led to believe they would earn. I would go a bit out of my way to frequent any non-tipping coffee shop/restaurant. And I'm quite happy to pay a higher price in the menu items to reflect the fact that the business isn't shifting some of their payroll burden to me in lieu of realistic pricing.

cptskippy 4y ago
But with his system, he gets to charge you extra and can deny staff bonuses. It's like stealing tips but more legal.

jononomo 4y ago

I agree with others that you should not introduce a rating system or suggest giving to charity. If no one complains about an employee and you don't notice anything bad, then just take that to be a rating of "satisfactory".

flanbiscuit 4y ago

There was a restaurant that opened near my old apartment (literally on my block) that started off with no tipping. It was a great fancy pizza place. Loved going there. Fast forward about 5 years, we've moved a few subway stops away so didn't go there as often (also the pandemic). We go back in 2021 and we come to find out as we pay that there is a tip line on their receipt. Never truly found out why but I wonder if it was hard to find or retain staff that can work at similar, or better, caliber restaurants and make more money via tips. From comments in their Yelp reviews it looks like they started taking tips before the pandemic so that wasn't the cause. I hope you'll be able to continue not taking tips because I really wish we'd abolish this practice. Good luck with your cafe and I would love to try it out next time I'm in LA!

jmorenoamor 4y ago

I would not run after anyone or fight my customers. Just put it in a jar and twice a year donate it to a good cause.

jpcfl 4y ago

I tried this when I started my popup restaurant. I rolled taxes into my prices, and didn’t ask for tip when collecting with Square. I did this because I love the simplicity of dining in Europe, where you pay exactly the price you see, and don’t get guilt tripped at the register. My customers complained that my prices were too high. So, I lowered my prices, added tax, then asked for a tip. About 50% of people tip, so my profits have actually gone up on average after this adjustment. People seem to be buying more, too. I hate it, but this model seems to work better from a business perspective, despite it being a worse customer experience (subjective, I know). How do you train your customers not to have sticker shock? Do I need to hang a banner that says “TAX AND TIP INCLUDED IN ALL PRICES” in comic sans?

notch656c 4y ago
It would be simple for me. I would refuse to go to your restaurant because dealing with multiple systems is too much work for my feeble mind. And my wife tells me I'm better with math than the common person. Your system is better. But it's special. Special is bad because I don't like having to do things X different ways for X different restaraunts. I would rather pay a little more and not have to remember the quarks of your restaurant. I am also just trained to tip so I will feel icky leaving your restaurant no matter if you are paying them a fair amount already. So if you charge more money to include the tip I will still feel obliged to tip anyway and I will leave with the experience your restaurant is too expensive and not come back. In short I think you've done the right thing. Don't fight the mob, embrace it.

crakhamster01 4y ago

Curious to hear your thoughts on this? [0] It's a post from Eric Huang - he's a chef based out of NYC and recently wrote about why his restaurant has decided to accept tips (while acknowledging that it's a bad system). It's a long read, but his point about more established hospitality groups/restaurateurs trying and failing to adopt a non-tipping model resonated with me. [0] https://www.instagram.com/p/CnozdBwu0pM/ https://www.instagram.com/p/CnozdBwu0pM/

aagha 4y ago

I thought accepting cash was mandatory, but I was mistaken: https://www.federalreserve.gov/faqs/currency_12772.htm https://www.federalreserve.gov/faqs/currency_12772.htm

snowflakeandrey 4y ago

Compared to US tipped-staff service, non-tipped staff in Japan seem a lot more genuine in their desire to help. It seems a matter of culture and professional pride to be provide excellent service, which leads to a significantly more thorough experience -- being that nice in the context of a tip would seem pushy and awkward.

zeekerbeek 4y ago

There is a brewery in my town that does the same thing. They do accept cash and any "tips" (which is any amount over the total) goes to their charity of the month. On their cc entry system, its never shown to the customer so there is never that awkward tipping part you see on a lot of POS systems now. If the customer asks, they say that they don't take tips and if they'd like to leave one in cash, it will all go towards their charity that month. By doing this, they appease the customer who wants to leave one and don't get in a back and forth with them over tips.