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I am done. I give up

• astoilkov 4y ago
  Thank you for fixing our survivorship bias.
• Patrick-AGAMI 4y ago
  Honestly, this realization is a success in itself. Some will tell you to not give up, but if your heart really isn't in it anymore, then it's ok to move on. Personally, I think you'll be happier later on in life knowing you tried and you gave it your all rather than growing older with regret because you never tried at all. Keep your head up. This, in itself, is a success story.
• bluecrab 4y ago
  Lmao
• mileyb 4y ago
  Why am I reading this instead of reading why your product is so great? It's sad that this ycombinator news about you failing reached me, and your product didn't. The world is against you. It's agains me too. And building something people actually want is really hard. And it's probably not what you want. You're probably different than your customers. Try again. You can do it. Don't be a customer. Be a provider. Do something for me. Do what I want done... something I am not willing to do myself. Don't build what you want. Build what people want. Ask what people want. I want to eat bread and drink orange juice but I don't want to bake bread or squeeze oranges. I am willing to pay probably up to $10 for orange juice every few weeks. Ask me (prospects/customers) what we want. You can't buy the answer. You have to ask for it many, many times and listen to what people say and then think really hard how you can deliver that to them and turn a profit. Three tries is not that many. Try again. Try smarter. Put in less work and less money but try again.
• dead_rubbish 4y ago
  Sounds like you've worked hard on this. Sorry it's not worked out. I hope you're ok.
• theGeatZhopa 4y ago
  Yeah. Sorry to read that. Wish you good luck for your future.
• solus_factor 4y ago
  That's why you need to build something that is at least an order of magnitude better, so people can't ignore you. Otherwise, yes, this was my experience too: in our noisy world dominated by huge corporations, indie hackers stand little chance to get their message out and pick some interest.
• smcn 4y ago
  You aren't alone. These influencers sell an unachievable dream that they themselves do not even live. I wish you all the best in whatever it is that you choose to do.
  • hackernewds 4y ago
    It is true. influencers show the highlights of their journeys mostly. while at the same time if they were doing so well, they wouldn't be needing to sell a course teaching you how. don't be so hard on yourself. sadly the market is rational when mature, and a lot of social media driven ideas have already hit that stage of low alpha.
    • smcn 4y ago
      I used to spend time on indiehackers and it's lousy with those types. Anyone selling 1) a course 2) a newsletter or 3) a community is a charlatan in my eyes. Maybe an unfair view but those are the "get rich quick with no effort" ideas that these people are into.
  • fastball 4y ago
    Which influencers?
    • smcn 4y ago
      I won't name names but I'd generalise it to people very obviously trying to sell a dream more than a product.
• jlangenauer 4y ago
  Why do "indiehackers" want attention from and create products for other "indiehackers"? As a group they seem the people with the least amount of money to spend on products, and are some of the most cheapskate people on the planet. Here's some advice: if you want to make money selling a software product, sell to people who are able and willing to spend money on it.
  • h05sz487b 4y ago
    That's what I asked myself reading the post. Business wise nobody cares about your product blog.
  • mschuster91 4y ago
    > Why do "indiehackers" want attention from and create products for other "indiehackers"? Two things come to my mind: 1) "indie hackers" are way easier to get a relation started with than companies or even start-ups. And forget about big enterprise if you don't have an angel investor or some other experienced and well-connected guidance. 2) With smaller users, you're more likely to get better testing and feedback. In companies of all sizes, it's rare to have a "we have an issue with vendor X's software" pipeline that goes straight from the affected user to the vendor, in most cases every report or feedback question will take six to seven steps in between.
    • tdeck 4y ago
      While these things are true, I can't help but think the advantages are outweighed by the fact that tech savvy people are some of the cheapest people around when it comes to paying for software. How many of us expect to build an MVP entirely on the free tier of something?
  • make_it_sure 4y ago
    that's because people that usually become indie hacker don't have much expertise outside of development and a few very saturated markets. Everything related to indie hackers, statups, etc are super crowded because it's easier for a newcomer to enter the market and build something familiar to them. Most people that have expertise on agriculture, oil drilling, saw-milling etc where there are real opportunities don't know much about startups or know how to build an app.
• dadarecit 4y ago
  [flagged]
• Normille 4y ago
  Welcome to the real world! There are millions of people out there with broken dreams and failed ambitions. Life for most of us is a succession of diminishing aspirations... I want to be rich and famous and loved by the world... I want a private jet... I want to be successful and admired by many... I want a big house... I want to be recognised as the best amongst my peers... I want a nice car... I want to get promotion and a pay rise... I want a house... I want to keep this job... I want to rent somewhere better... I want a job I don't hate... I want to afford to have the heating on... Unfortunately, as you point out, the internet makes your own perceived 'failure' seen like an outlier, rather than the norm that it actually is. It's infuriating when you've worked hard at something --like a product or a written piece or some art-- and got no interest at all. And you look at YouTube and see some vaccuous fuckwitt with a million views for a video of them opening a box. I know. I've 'Been there. Done that. Bought the T-shirt ' so many times I could open a T-shirt shop... which, naturally, wouldn't get any customers. I'm guessing you're pretty young, as you're taking this failure to become the next Elon Musk pretty personally. You also need to learn to separate you as a person from your crazy schemes and, when they come crashing down round your ears, just shrug and move on. As I've got older, I've come to terms with the fact I'm never going to amount to anything, if my yardstick for success is internet likes or upvotes. But I'm a decent person and, in the real world, my family and friends think I'm a good bloke. So fuck all that fake internet popularity shite.
• kissgyorgy 4y ago
  I agree with almost everything, except one thing. "It's okay to admit defeat". Why would it be defeat? I understand you would like to have taken this path, but it not meant to be for you, so what? I'm guessing you are under 30 and did not figure out everything life has to offer (as nobody ever can), but in the grand scheme of your life, you should be proud you tried and moved on, you probably won't regret it later. The things we always regret in life are the "what would have happened if"s, not the trying hards, so I consider this a win, not a failure.
• neontomo 4y ago
  Sounds like you need to think about working with other people, to learn from them but also to lean on their skills that you may be missing (marketing, community-building, and so on). From your post, it seems that you tried to do everything by yourself which requires you to be incredibly on-point in many different types of work.
  • karlerss 4y ago
    Finding the right people has made entrepreneurship bearable for me. And I didn't find those right people on my first attempt either. Staying disciplined for years is so much easier when you have competent and compassionate cofounders with you. You might even get away with a few vacations.
• jurmous 4y ago
  A big fact of the entrepreneur world is that it is hugely based on luck. Luck of finding the right idea, the right market, the right timing, the right connections, the right customers, the right employees, the right financing. The basic fact is that most startups and most entrepreneurial dreams fail or get consumed by another for their talent/clients. And as an entrepreneur you fight against all odds. Most will fail and you have to be ok with that for yourself. Even how many times you try. It is ok, it does not make you a failure because you tried. It makes you a brave and daring person you tried. It does not help that the media only celebrates the few lucky ones, and because they were lucky they will propagate all their steps of wonderful execution, but overlooking the fact that they were just with the right timing, market & people. That it was pure luck. There are more journeys in life to be happy than being an entrepreneur. There are more paths towards personal fulfilment.
  • rogereur 4y ago
    "Shallow men believe in luck. Strong men believe in cause and effect."
  • vineyardmike 4y ago
    > A big fact of the entrepreneur world is that it is hugely based on luck. And for anything with bigger ambitions than a lifestyle business, don’t forget connections. Most founders are still men from Ivies or Stanford. Just look at the “PayPal mafia” to see how inbred tech investing can be. Not that most entrepreneurs need or should expect VC funding, but this is HN, run by a VC. You can totally run a business and be successful without it.
    • mensetmanusman 4y ago
      Connections, where you were born, and where you go to school are also luck.
    • cies 4y ago
      > Most founders are still men from Ivies or Stanford Is that also true for YC startups? I felt like YC (while still playing the capitalist's game) was providing a more equal opportunity to start-up "luck" by just looking at the numbers :)
• cinntaile 4y ago
  What did you build?
  • quikoa 4y ago
    After reading this I really like to know as well!
    • odc 4y ago
      message to OP: you see? All you had to do is create some drama and now people are interested in you :)
• roysimkes 4y ago
  The thing is you are not the minority. Those who are successful are a very small minority who just had the stars aligned at the right moment at the right moment with some luck. When you consider it, those promoters are selling you picks and shovels so that you can find your gold. But similar to the gold rush, we know that very small amount of people actually found gold and from those who found it, a smaller amount was able to sustain that. I'm sorry that your enterprises have failed but this doesn't surprise me. I'm happy that you changed your direction (imho, it's not giving up) to something different. It's very hard to find the point where you let it go while success seems such a very short distance away like you can reach your hand and grab it. But it's so frustrating that even if you are approaching your goal, you can't just close the distance and it's still far away. There will be people who will label you as a "loser" as you "gave up on your dreams", but you are not actually. You are just one of millions of people who were trying to make it but didn't. I doesn't matter if your idea was great or not, if your execution was perfect or not, if your audience was willing to pay or not, if the time was right or not, sometimes it just doesn't work. And it's still OK. Best of luck to you.
• gpderetta 4y ago
  > It's okay to admit defeat and move on to something else. It is better to have tried and failed than not having tried at all. I live the comfortable life of a decently paid employee, but I always wonder what could have been had I chosen a different path. Good luck with whatever and wherever your life takes you next!
• rr808 4y ago
  I've always worked for a big corporates. The teams are large and infrastructure support is good. We produce apps with specialists for databases, networking, front end back end, middleware, tools, business analysts, project managers, HR etc etc. And we dont even have to worry about marketing or advertising or search optimisation. I realize corporates have overhead but dont know how one entrepreneur can do significant by themselves.
• asim 4y ago
  It must be the time of the year that makes people reflect and change the trajectory of their efforts in the year to come. I'm there with you. Most people say don't call it a failure, you didn't fail, despite it feeling like that. Everything you have done has gotten you to this point in your life, for some of that you have to be grateful, you have to look at the good things in your life and say, if it were not for this journey I would not have these things in my life. The experiences matter, the journey matters and the outcomes along the way are not as binary as you'd think. In your eyes you've failed to build a successful company, but if you reframe that by changing your expectations then you'll see how much you've grown, how much you've changed and that without trying to build these things you may have lived a life of regret, a lesser life. Head up, chin up. Take some time to breathe and reflect, but don't let it consume you. The best years of your life are still ahead of you. The journey isn't over. Maybe it's not the entrepreneurial journey you want, but it could be something else that lets you embody that other ideas, people and places.
• jonifico 4y ago
  Hello, I'd would love to talk with you if possible, juanpablosarmi on Twitter. DM open
• drpancake 4y ago
  Sorry to hear that. How long were you trying for? A lot of these guys were at it for years and years before they found success. It can be brutal in the beginning. I think it's unfair to characterise the "digital nomad influencers" on Twitter as making it seem easy. I know a few of them personally and they work incredibly hard. You can tell by the speed at which they ship new products. They work a lot. That said, building a Twitter audience of indie hacker types is massively overrated. It's a huge amount of work and the space is utterly saturated. These people generally don't buy stuff and if you try a lot of different ideas then the chances are that many of them are not in your target market.
  • make_it_sure 4y ago
    Exactly. I started building stuff at 17 and found "the one" (doing over 1 mil/year) at 27. I can't count how many failed projects I had.
    • jalapenos 4y ago
      How did you identify your ultimately successful niche, and what do you feel was different about it than your previous attempts?
      • drpancake 4y ago
        When you know you know. It's like the difference between pushing a boulder uphill and downhill. Very hard to predict ahead of time - you just have to keep shipping stuff.
• andrewstuart 4y ago
  Yep it's that hard. I respect your decision. Go do something else. Find yourself again. Replenish. Find a new life direction.
• esperent 4y ago
  I'm sorry you didn't find the success you were looking for as an entrepreneur. I've been there, burned out and desperate, and it's a horrible way to feel. But at least you did try and if you take the time you need to heal, you'll have energy to do sonagain in the future. Maybe it won't be entrepreneurship, however. The world is huge and there's an unlimited number of ways to define success besides creating a successful business. Mental and physical health and good social connections are one such way. If you can find your way back to those and recognize that as the success you need, at this time, then I for one will be applauding you. Once you've climbed that mountain another purpose will find it's way to you. On a personal note, I think the world would be a better place if less people defined success as personal wealth and power, and more defined it as improving the society around them. When you have energy to be active in the world again, maybe you could try looking at it that way instead? What kind of service can you, and your skills, best give to this world and its people, animals, and environment?
• superzamp 4y ago
  Props for getting that laid out here and you are in the right now by focusing on what matters, i.e. your health. FWIW, granted it's worth anything, I feel like everything you describe here (a.k.a. ProductHunt, Substack, etc) are byproducts of success but not a good ramp to success itself. Granted that you genuinely enjoy building stuff from scratch (which, without saying, is totally fine if not), those are the least of your concern when roaming the road to PMF. And you'll have better luck at finding it by becoming an authentic expert in a specific niche and building a shitty MVP along the way, which is a much more enjoyable journey. So I guess what I'm trying to say here is that, all these parts of entrepreneurship that you didn't like, they were actually just distractions posturing themselves as Entrepreneurship™ and their shilling was probably the product of other entrepreneurs. Take care and remember that failure is a byproduct of trying and there's absolutely no shame in that.
• make_it_sure 4y ago
  I tried 10 years building numerous projects since 17 until i reached the $1mil one. I did it because I loved building stuff, it wasn't a burden for me like i see it's for so many people that want to become entrepreneurs because they see on Tiktok how good others have it. If it becomes a burden, then it's a problem. Also, luck may play a big role, but there's something you learn failing over and over again. You start to see what it's actually working and what path is closer to success. Patterns will emerge. You know that saying that sometimes you do your own luck. The easiest path to success for a SaaS is getting a feature of a big product into a standalone specialized product and going after that niche. This simple thing so many indie hackers fail to realize, many try to build the next unicorn, the unique idea. If you keep trying like this, you'll likely fail 50 more times.
  • jacquesm 4y ago
    What you see on Tiktok rarely reflects reality.
  • ToJans 4y ago
    ^^ +10000 I think a lot of us have been there. There's a big difference whether your service: - is B2B/B2C; - uses product-led/marketing-led/sales-led growth; - targets a broad market or a niche (the more niche it is, the better it speaks to your target market, f.e. coaching vs developer coaching vs coaching Java developers VS coaching Java developers in machine learning vs coaching Java developers that use machine learning in the agricultural world...) - uses different pricing models; - ... I've been on this route for 8 years with some consulting stints in between to pay the bills, and it wasn't until this year that my sales pitch finally started to land. Refining my target audience has been a big part of this... There's a lot of nuance in how to present your offer, and you need to get everything exactly right to convert someone. You have to make someone an offer so good it would feel stupid for them to refuse. In my opinion a lot of the "snake oil sellers" try to pitch the universal product-led growth approach to a very broad market that works for everything and that you can do from your computer. In reality, they are most likely optimized to sell as much courses as possible, coming with very generic advice, and don't really care about the results for their target audience. Another point: unless your target audience is on indie hackers, you should not be spending your time there at all. I feel for you, so if you want to have a short chat, I might be able to give you some pointers. Feel free to reach out. In the end, there is a lot of survivorship bias going on, and as the world is in constant flux, what works today will probably not work tomorrow, so you have to find your own path... And, there's no shame in having tried and failed; by trying you're already within the minority that took action. By the way, in my experience, people pay way more for an IT consultant that has lived and experienced the bigger picture of running a business, so even if you failed, you should be better off that someone that didn't try... Update: formatting
• jacquesm 4y ago
  It's not defeat, it is the expected outcome. Out of 20 or so of my projects two have been break-out successes and the rest (commercially) complete failures, and I'm very lucky to have two out of those 20, with very small variations in timing it would have been a big fat zero. So don't beat yourself up about it, some people win the lottery and the majority don't. There is absolutely no recipe that will work every time, not even one that will work most of the time or a significant fraction of the times you try to apply it. Luck, luck, luck and timing. One problem is not just the influencers peddling their books and their bullshit, it's also the eco-system that sells the dream itself. This site is part of that and you should take the success stories with a large grain of salt, usually things are not as easy as they are made out to be and for every success there are 100 failures. And those are rarely talked about. Best of luck with the recovery, I can see it weighs heavily on you.
  • seydor 4y ago
    What rate is the cutoff at which people give up entrepreneurship altogether? I wonder how big has the opportunity cost of monopolies been in the past decade
    • jacquesm 4y ago
      That depends on the person, really. When you are younger or have rich parents you can afford yourself larger risks and that in turn has a positive effect on your chances of success. When you get older and have more responsibilities unless you have a prior success you tend to become more risk averse and so less willing to start new companies and/or make the kind of decisions that would lead to either success or complete failure. Playing it safe is an excellent way to lose against a crowd of others that can afford to take risks: some of them will get lucky and beat you, even if most of them fail. There are older, successful entrepreneurs, one guy I knew started his first company in his mid-50's and had a massive success but he's definitely the outlier. But most successful entrepreneurs I know started their first successful company in their 20's or 30's, rarely 40's. And most unsuccessful entrepreneurs have the exact same demographic... A couple of things that I've seen really do help, but they still require a substantial investment in time and have an opportunity cost as well: work for one of the large, well paying companies for a while, save up a nest egg and use that as a jump off point if you weren't born into capital (though the risk of becoming addicted to that income stream is real and letting go of it will not be easy). Another is to first start a regular career in order to identify pain points in some industry or other and then later use that knowledge to create a product that addresses those pain points. But that's not the kind of thing that you can spin out far enough for a book or a TED talk. I do believe that those two will increase your chances.
• johnhenry 4y ago
  I don't know if that's helpful; but one lesson I remember from a business program years ago was that the average business owner fails at least three times before becoming successful.
• theiz 4y ago
  Starting any business is very very very hard work. Creating a new product from nothing, is very very hard work. Combining the 2 means you have an insane amount of work to do. That leaves you to be CEO and R&D and manufacturing. How do you think marketing and sales fits into that? And finance and strategy? Those are the pitfalls and a reason to better not do startup alone. There are freelance sales people that will sell your product for a fee, with the advantages of using their network and their feedback in an early stage of development (if they say they can’t sell it, stop your work). For now: you have a ton of experience and are invaluable for any employer. See this as an investment and see you get a return.
  • PaywallBuster 4y ago
    > There are freelance sales people that will sell your product for a fee, with the advantages of using their network and their feedback in an early stage of development Can you elaborate on this please?
    • theiz 4y ago
      This is quite common in Europe, not sure on other areas now. These are people that have worked as account manager and decided to start their own business. I know one that has worked for Accenture, one ex Microsoft. They work for a percentage normally and with that it is in their benefit to sell as much of your product as possible. They have their network and knowledge, I liked working that way a lot.
• PaywallBuster 4y ago
  building startup = testing a new idea / market / product from 0 digital nomad = selling a common service - probably cheaper since you can work remotely from cheaper countries
• mateuszbuda 4y ago
  You’re right that your not alone in this. More than 50% of products built by indie hackers don’t make any money at all: https://scrapingfish.com/blog/indie-hackers-revenue https://scrapingfish.com/blog/indie-hackers-revenue
• spikeagally 4y ago
  You’re conflating your “entrepreneurship dream” with a very very small subset of entrepreneurs (indie hacker digital nomads). Entrepreneurs start corner shops. Sell physical products, digital products, provide services, etc. the number who build a SaaS alone and travel while doing it is very small. Also - in regards to the indie hacker space there are important things to watch out for: - Constant bragging about revenue but no talk of margin/profit. - Lots of talk that the product would still be a success without the persons huge Twitter following. - Lots of bragging about success that, when you actually look into it, is $1000MRR. That’s great but these people give off the impression that they are much more successful than that. Finally, you have to love entrepreneurship because it fits your personality. The risk taking necessary isn’t for everyone (rightly so) and for some people a stable career is much more fulfilling. You sound like you want to be an entrepreneur because of the lifestyle you see from these digital nomads but maybe the reality of it (risk, instability, failure) isn’t actually what you want.
• Konohamaru 4y ago
  It's a Darwinian world out there. Success is not up to you to produce. Telling people that it's all up to them and their free will is the most destructive lie you can tell, because it's not and the end result is that people start harming themselves with guilt because it's "their fault". It's not "your fault" and it's not because of your "free will". Guilt is an extremely destructive and evil emotion. Excise it from your heart.
  • robertlagrant 4y ago
    This is too far the other way. Hard work and good ideas are necessary but not sufficient. That's all.
    • Konohamaru 4y ago
      Yeah. I was in a bad state of mind when I wrote this. I'm sorry.
      • robertlagrant 4y ago
        Hope you're feeling better
        • Konohamaru 4y ago
          Thank you!
• Incipient 4y ago
  Having seen various projects go well, and go badly. The trend I've seen is that "quality" is massively overrated. All about knowing the right people that can further spread your network and reach.
  • fullstackchris 4y ago
    ugh, this so much, the cringe cofounders at my last startup were so painstaking annoying about how "perfect" the design had to be (for all 500 of our monthly users) that it took us MONTHS to ship new features. my wisdom: if a product is good, people will use it and pay for it, regardless of minor design problems (that can always be fixed later!)
• janalsncm 4y ago
  > constant stream of digital nomad influencers on Twitter who sell extremely distorted, rosy, and often times false dreams to indie entrepreneurs like myself I don’t know where the grindset culture comes from (on Instagram I often used to see sappy quotes slapped over an image of an overrated business type) but it must be very lucrative. Influencers are not there to show you reality, just like no one is ever driving their new car down empty streets in Manhattan. I don’t know what success is like, but it’s not that.
• highwaylights 4y ago
  Please don’t take any offence at this, it’s not meant to offend at all. I just feel like perhaps part of your outlook here may help to explain where you’re currently at. Firstly, you’ve learned that social media influencing is in essence a MLM scam. Good! A lot of people never realise this and get themselves into incredibly dire situations as a result, so kudos for realising this. > I tried everything - building an audience, making sure my product actually solved a problem, getting paying customers, and writing high-quality content and contributing to the community. But no matter what I did, I couldn't seem to get anywhere. My efforts were fruitless and I'm tired of trying. I barely had 20 followers, my substack and product blogs didn't get any signups, and while I did get a few upvotes (8) on Product Hunt once, I never had a paid customer. It was as if the world was against me and no matter how hard I tried, I couldn't make any progress. You’ve missed out on one critical ingredient in the above. Luck. A lot of things need to fall together just so in order for a product to gain traction. Broken down these are all fairly logical non-chance related factors, but no-one is realistically able to anticipate the millions of externalities that will play into that ahead of time, so from the perspective of someone trying to get a business off the ground, it is luck. All those factors you talked about in terms of substack and product hunt should be viewed as the cost of getting slightly better odds on your lottery ticket. YCombinator doesn’t expect a single random applicant to become AirBnb, and they have more experience in this than anyone. You’ve learned that social media is bad for you and that nothing on it is real. This is also good. You can take some time, and if you choose to have another attempt at this later, you’ll have that wisdom to carry with you. > Don't let your dreams consume you like they did for me Dreams are fleeting, but they’re still precious. It feels strange to say that as in my 20’s I had a very all-or-nothing view of success, but life happens regardless and what you want to get out of it will change over time. I’m grateful for my lot, and if I should achieve those dreams later then I’ll be grateful for that too, but if it doesn’t happen I really don’t regret the pitfalls along the way. You can’t take any of it with you anyway. > PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE PROTECT YOUR MENTAL HEALTH AT ALL COST! Don't make the same mistakes I did and realize that entrepreneurship may not be the path for you. It's okay to admit defeat and move on to something else. This is the correct answer. Speaking as someone with wild stories that are a little too close to the bone for sharing on the topic of mental health, it really does need to come first. Speaking personally - the costs aren’t obvious, they sneak up on you, and you’re usually the last to see it. Take the win here - learning this lesson while you’re young is very much “the easy way”. I wish you well and happy to chat if you ever want to reach out.
• blagie 4y ago
  Having done several options -- entrepreneurship, job, internal entrepreneurship, and consulting, my advice: - Entrepreneurship isn't a lifestyle. Stay in a job unless you have a good idea and are ready to execute. - Try your idea internally. Starting a new product in a company is easier than outside. It doesn't have a $1B upside, but it has enough upside, in all respects (not just financial -- learning, credibility, etc.). - If that doesn't pan out, go external only once you're pretty confident of success. My experience is that entrepreneurship isn't so much hard or take luck, as it takes a lot of groundwork: - You want a diverse set of skills. Management. Finance. Sales. Technical. Legal. Market research. Etc. It's not a place for specialists, and it takes time to develop those skills. You also ought to enjoy (or at least not hate) most of them. - You want good market timing, which comes with experience. - You want a good idea with traction. That's where nights / weekends fit in. Nights / weekends don't give enough time for a successful startup, but they give enough to do early prototyping. Doing a (failed) startup as a student is a good learning experience. I wish I had done it. I don't wish I had done it three times, or as an adult. Oh, and selling false dreams is part of being a successful entrepreneur. You'll get zero customers if people think you're on the verge of going broke. Every business I've seen takes a "fake it until you make it approach." If you rely on blogs for what entrepreneurship ought to look like, you're in for a nasty surprise. A better option to learn how to do a startup is a job at a startup; you'll see the process from the inside.
  • mikestaub 4y ago
    This is the best advice I've seen on this website in years!
  • drewcon 4y ago
    This is excellent advice. I followed roughly this path until I was in my late 30s. Now have a startup that is growing because we put in essentially 5 years of groundwork, while working full time day jobs, building product in an industry that isn’t sexy, being “lucky” (patient/observant) enough to ride a new federal regulation, having go throw away an entire product after 2 years and starting a new product in the same space/customers, showing customers we were in it for the long haul FOR THEM, with a well rounded seasoned founding team, business model first, taking the right amount of investment from the right investors at the right time. In that way I think entrepreneurship IS actually a lifestyle, but the behaviors are not what OP alludes to. The lifestyle is falling in love with a problem or a type of customer or both and just seeing what you can do to help while building a business along the way…SUSTAINABLY. If your version of lifestyle is somehow BEING caught up in acting a certain way based on influence (I have no idea what an indie hacker is), that seems destined for failure. TLDR. Go live your life, get a normal job to build security, don’t try and start a company at all, wait for a problem/opportunity to find you.
• causi 4y ago
  Now I really want to know what you were selling and for how much. I want to know if the product was bad or just unlucky.
• tluyben2 4y ago
  Since the late 90s, the fastest way to make money by doing very little is selling 'internet marketing' strategies. These strategies do work if you have a large following. They mostly do not work, at all, if you do not. So if you have a mailing list with engaged users (not bought), 100k+ twitter followers etc. The tips / books these people sell are usually actually from their own experience and they usually indeed made 100k overnight, however, these strategies were usually just luck/chance in their case and now they can do anything because they have the following and the fanbase. The worst thing you can do is believe them as some magic shortcut. But indeed, after all this time (search for 'warriorforum' to see a community that's entirely made out of this type of thing), the thing that can make you $100k+/year from the beach is still writing a book about you got $100k+/year by writing+selling that book. You probably read a few or followed a few of these internet marketers; they can make you feel very bad as they just send out something and make money immediately; that's because their followers are dreamers, not doers and they'll do anything for a quick fix.
  • gwbas1c 4y ago
    Sounds like a 0-sum-game. Just remember: There are only so many people willing to be suckered by the same pitch; so if you're selling a dream, your dream needs to be different enough so you can find new suckers.
• fakedang 4y ago
  My current advice, which seems to be working well so far, is to do small tasks for huge government corporations and organizations for FREE, no questions asked. Don't know how well this could work in the American context, but this has worked for 3 places I've lived in (UK, UAE, India). You don't earn cash but you will earn an INSANE amount of goodwill and connections. The next time, they need a tech solution, they'll get in touch with you, or you could sell to them much easier. Oh yeah, when shooting, shoot for the top of the pecking order. Selling to wantepreneurs, indie hackers and SMB owners is the worst. The market is super fragmented, and you'll have to do a ton of marketing to a bunch of people who won't even pay, what I like to call the Firebase problem.
  • moneywoes 4y ago
    Any outreach examples?
    • fakedang 4y ago
      Just an instance, I built a small feature module for the local transport authority, which could be easily integrated into their existing app. Through that tiny bit of weekend work, I was appreciated by the CEO of the public transport department of the transport authority. I could use him as a reference to get many further connections.
  • quickthrower2 4y ago
    I am interested in why it is the Firebase problem, or what that means?
    • fakedang 4y ago
      Firebase has a ton of users, but most of the users seem to be independent devs and hobbyists, with a small number of large clients. It's possible Firebase tends to attract non-hardcore users because of its superb UI/UX, which makes it extremely accessible for beginner devs and hobbyist programmers. But apart from a few features (which don't generate revenue, like Auth and Cloud Functions), Firebase has a hard time getting established companies to use them because at the end of the day, they're built on GCP, which has the lowest trust factor among the Big 3 - no serious company is going to trust the longevity of Google Products.
• makach 4y ago
  Thank you for sharing what you learned. Take a break, but don't burn any bridges, who know what the future will bring?!
• rowanG077 4y ago
  In general don't take the advise of ANY influencer. They are paid to dump a paid message into your brain.
• nudpiedo 4y ago
  You got to know yourself better. Honest self discovery is not defeat, now you know for sure what you want and you can pursue it without regrets. Many of us needed to go this path down to realize many dreams are not worth pursing, sometimes minor intensity dreams are the actual call and the actual happiness is in them, we just need to discover that first, and it is not a free journey. And all that said, you are also right about digital nomad lifestyle sellers. At least we are not in the 70s-90s when the popular call was "stay safe". We got the chance to try which lifestyle we want, desire, can live with. Take some time to pull yourself together, all things you did made you a better person, and this set of skills will be available for you in all sorts of situations. You got to know yourself better: honest self discovery is not defeat.
• 1rs 4y ago
  What have you been building?
• tluyben2 4y ago
  What type of products? Can you give any examples? If you rather don't publicly (as you created an account for this), my email is in my profile.
• 1rs 4y ago
  Curious to know what you have been building?
• philippz 4y ago
  You got a lot of good advice here. So I'll keep it short. I'm 32 now. I spent my last 12 years building companies. They all failed; I didn't earn a penny, and I didn't even get venture capital, and it made me feel like a failure. And I'm talking serious attempts. 6 years, 2 years, 1 year and in between a lot of research & freelancing to evaluate other ideas. I'm leading a 40 people team, and it's going well. How did I get there? By chance. Another hackathon resulted in the right industry at the right time. But also 12 years of exercise in pitching, structuring information, data, setting up on organization, addressing all kinds of different technologies and all of that. You are learning so much and you feel treated unfairly by not being able to show it off. Keep on going. Maybe go back to work for 10-12 months for some stability and to take a break, but then try again.
  • throwawaybbq1 4y ago
    How did you sustain yourself during periods of failure?
    • philippz 4y ago
      Freelancing and I had a co-founder (also technical) all along with whom I worked very closely in terms of survival. E.g. sometimes he was freelancing for the both of us while I was networking, researching, and evaluating opportunities. Having a co-founder that is complementary to your personality and skill-set is highly valuable. We've been working together for 10 years now.
      • philippz 4y ago
        Another tip here: Upwork can help kickstarting this.
    • deleted 4y ago
      [deleted]
  • blparker 4y ago
    Thanks for sharing your story. Your experience is key—there may be a strong luck component to success, but with enough attempts, it seems that your luck increases. Often, hidden behind "overnight successes" is a trail of failures.
• chaosbolt 4y ago
  >3 x failed attempts => spending time institutionalized >anyone can do it with the right mindset Those are contradictory, I would guess the right mindset is one where failure doesn't destroy you to the point you get institutionalized. Here is my stupid advice (won't work, it's a case of someone who knows less giving advice to someone who knows more, I have never started a company or anything, but as Gandalf said "Why Bilbo Baggins? Perhaps it is because I am afraid... and he gives me courage."): Buy a copy of a souls game (Dark Souls, Bloodborne, Sekiro, Elden Ring), play it with no summons and no over leveling, you'll eventually get to a difficult boss that will kill you many times, now the first Souls game I played was Bloodborne and I just gave up after a week, came back then gave up, came back again and it clicked and now they're my favorite series of games, I died like 50 times against some bosses, it would drive anyone crazy, the stupid mistakes I keep repeating, the unfairness of some of their moves, etc. doesn't matter, I chose to play the game and it's just a game so why get affected? This will obviously not help you in anything related to startups, but it's a light way to learn to accept failure, is it the same kind of acceptance? I don't know... Also you failed, maybe you're just 5 feet 6 and can never ever become a professional basketball player no matter how hard you try, does it mean you're less of a human being to the point you get institutionalized for it? of course not, you tried, you failed, maybe the 4th time's a charm, maybe not, if you become comfortable enough to try again without affecting your mental health sure, if not don't try again, a decent job, a family, a couple friends, couple hobbies, and you can live a meaningful life and maybe even be happier than many people who succeeded at what you tried.
  • totalZero 4y ago
    Also you failed, maybe you're just 5 feet 6 and can never ever become a professional basketball player no matter how hard you try Muggsy Bogues is 5'3" and played 14 seasons in the NBA. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muggsy_Bogues https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muggsy_Bogues
    • Fargren 4y ago
      There was once a time when I would have written a comment like this one, but now I'm down-voting it. There are two ways to read this message, and both of them are not something I would encourage, of different reasons, and being ambiguous between them is not in it's favor either. A. You are trying to highlight that the poster is technically incorrect, so that they learn a new fact. That is mostly fine, but it doesn't add a lot to the conversation, and distracts from the point that they are trying to make. or B. You are making a point that some people succeed despite handicaps, essentially that there are often exceptions and hard work can make up for lack of talent. This is true, but it's a mindset that I think should not be encouraged in the OP. They are clearly having problems with how hard they work, which had lead to them being institutionalized. Telling them that they could have succeeded if they tried harder is not what we should do here.
• hutzlibu 4y ago
  Yesterday I thought about a metapher for it: A small tree that grows in the shadow with minimal sunlight. If it just would get enough sunlight for once, it could grow high enough and reach direct sunlight, it could get the energy for real sustained growth. But as long as its in the shade, it will simply never get that energy, no matter how much it is told by other plants to just grow a little bit more. When there is no more energy, there is no more energy, even if the goal is close. Maybe an old tree will fall down, then suddenly there is enough air and light, until then you can only grow with what energy you have avaiable. Not everyone makes it and not everyone had even the chance.
• nonrandomstring 4y ago
  What you're giving up on is an unhealthy and unrealistic idea of what "entrepreneurship" means. And that's good. Sounds like you've been following someone else's dream, not your own. I've seen it often, in the music and games industries for example. We've all been there. Failure after failure. But one doesn't give up because the trick is to find the definition of "entrepreneur" that fits you, for which you are suited, and successful, and by definition that is what entrepreneurship is. Don't buy into the pop culture. That said, always take a healthy break between projects, as you say, for the sake of your mental health. Good luck.
• dm319 4y ago
  I wish you all the best for the future and I'm sure you will find satisfaction in whatever path you pursue going forwards.
• MariyaD96 4y ago
  Congrats! You have found out that influencers are gaining money through promising impossible stuff to people who believe that the million comes easy. ;) I am working in a startup's marketing team and we are constantly struggling to get some attention and customers. In comparison, big corporations have big sales, marketing, product development teams and etc... And these are constant efforts of hundreds of people so that the company has a good position in the market. So don't beat yourself up. It is not easy. Entrepreneurship can often be a very ungrateful job to do. You sacrifice too much. But what do you actually get in the end?
• tmilard 4y ago
  In a way the tremendous success of YC drove this false belief that : - Creating a startup is fun & rather EASY success. It's not. It's never been. It will never be. I am fifty three: I now know. I also was a teenager then a young adult, influenced by "entrepreneurs" of their time. Entrepreneurs dream is RISKY. Start-up's future is 90% of the time doomed. Worse : Chance plays a big role.
  • hgsgm 4y ago
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• moffkalast 4y ago
  Bottom text
• trabant00 4y ago
  I grew up in a family of successful small entrepreneurs and surrounded by their contacts and friends. I myself chose to get employed in IT and I've been like that for 20 years. A couple of years back I was starting to get the feeling that I'm not all I could be, that maybe I should start my own business and make "real" money. I presented this idea to my father during a lunch with a few of his business partners. The overall sentiment was "Fuck no! The money you're making working 9 to 5? You'd be crazy to give that up for all the trouble a business brings." I was quite surprised, not even one of them supported the idea and most envied my life style. I could go into how success in business is a lot about who you know and it's quite far from a fair playing field but I don't think it necessary nor do I want to write a book here.
• Gravityloss 4y ago
  Some similarities exist in many other businesses like music, games or sports. The distribution is varying degrees of L-shaped. The few successful ones are very successful while most are making a loss. Another key concept is asymmetric risk to the individual. The way it would make sense to an individual to be an enterpreneur is if they can reduce the downside, ie that failing will not result in a personal catastrophe. For example if they had a lot of money to start with. If you have enough savings to live (and feed your family) for a few years without money, then it makes a lot more sense. There are other methods like incubators or collectives. And the third one is survivorship bias. A lottery winner telling everyone what kind of pen to use to fill their ticket. People might not know very well why they were successful. Fourth one is "selling picks to gold miners". There's this business and buzz around enterpreneur culture, someone can make money right out of that without actually being an enterpreneur. No matter what it is, somebody will turn it into a meta business. Fishing is a big business. In the sixteenhundreds, Izaak Walton wrote a successful book on angling. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Compleat_Angler https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Compleat_Angler
• AstixAndBelix 4y ago
  This question might be off taste, but.... what are your actual skills? what can you actually do in your life? can you program? can you reverse engineer? can you design? can you market? Have you ever had a salaried job where you have matured a knowledge about how a product is planned, designed, produced and shipped? If you exit college with not ulterior education, building a successful business is extremely unlikely. You first have to at least know how stuff works in the job and products market and you have to study a lot about tech entrepenourship to avoid all the pitfalls and dumb errors that many inexperienced people make.
• ralphb 4y ago
  > It's also the constant stream of digital nomad influencers on Twitter who sell extremely distorted, rosy, and often times false dreams to indie entrepreneurs like myself. I believe that all sales are about selling into peoples dreams. I am sure that the false dreams you refer are an extremely good business and a willing market, because - who doesn't want to buy the dream of being a successful entrepreneur? Ironically, assuming these people are creating products primarily based on their own experiences, there might not be anything false about it - it's just that you've trying to sell into less desirable dreams! Fundamentally I believe that for me it is impossible to passionately pursue stuff I am not really interested in. This limits the desirability of the dreams I can sell into, and I have come to terms with that. You might even think of this as bad luck. I've also come to terms with the fact that I have to create for myself first, and any interest I get from other people is purely a bonus. Obviously that doesn't pay the bills :-)
  • redleader55 4y ago
    I a have a feeling that most influencers live off the story, not off the actual product they built. They sell coaching for how to live the great life. this works well, but in the end is nothing more than a Ponzi scheme or MLM scam.
  • WA 4y ago
    > I believe that all sales are about selling into peoples dreams. Nah, there's selling the dream of quitting the 9-to-5, financial independence, control over one's own time. That is what this is all about. It's on a totally different level than selling the dream of, I don't know, running a marathon (by selling you a running shoe) or stopping the flow of your period with a tampon. These are actual useful products. IMHO, selling the dream of quitting the rat race is financially extremely lucrative – and a somewhat cheap shot.
• Kinnard 4y ago
  Why don't you just win? Is there really any other option than winning? No. There isn't. Once you understand— and know— this then you won't be sad anymore. I'd be happy to help you win!
• simple-thoughts 4y ago
  First of all, you are not alone. Most people who try to become entrepreneurs do not succeed. Thankfully, you are self aware and willing to face the facts of your reality. A lot of people will say that success in entrepreneurship is primarily driven by luck. But what they leave out is that it’s input luck, not output luck. Inputs like a “small” $10k gift from a family member. Clean water and high nutrition during childhood that lead to above average intelligence. Literacy, citizenship, family wealth, and more. Not to mention having no mental or physical illnesses and a high capacity to endure stress. I completely agree with your last sentence, “It’s ok to admit defeat and move on.” In life, you got to play with the hand you were dealt and not the hand someone else’s. It’s unfortunate that some social circles encourage self damaging behavior in pursuit of some idealized lifestyle that can never be accessed by everyone, and it wouldn’t even be good if it was.
  • jacquesm 4y ago
    > But what they leave out is that it’s input luck, not output luck. Inputs like a “small” $10k gift from a family member. Clean water and high nutrition during childhood that lead to above average intelligence. Literacy, citizenship, family wealth, and more. Hm, no, even if all of those things are equal the expected outcome is still failure. Your comparison works on the world stage but say within the population of a wealthy country and even just one wealthy city if 100 people were to go down this path only one or two will have a success that offsets their opportunity cost. The kind of luck that entrepreneurs are talking about in this context is more related to markets being ripe just as your product hits them, technologies going mainstream, meeting the right business contact or partners early on and so on. Those little things can make - or break - a business depending on if they happen or not.
    • _just7_ 4y ago
      I will add that it's only about luck if your entering a certain kind of industry, where your succes is dependent on popularity. If for example you start lumber company selling timber wood, the only thing you need to have an edge is to undercut the market with 5% on price. Of cause you won't get rich quick or maybe even slow, but it's a tried and tested strategy. Before starting a business you should ask yourself is my business luck depend, or is my success guaranteed as long as I undercut the competition on price or quality.
• rmetzler 4y ago
  I tried to be my own boss, but I was really bad at acquiring new clients. I was broke and then really learned to appreciate being a salaried employee. It’s much easier to build something when you don’t risk homelessness or something similar. You seem to be really bad at marketing. HN frontpage and you don’t say anything about what you tried and what your skills are.
• tacker2000 4y ago
  I was lurking for a while on indiehackers and i noticed it being a closed off, somewhat “toxic”, self reinforcing bubble where the main goal seems to be to sell stuff to other “hackers”, or maybe it just evolved this way… Many of the products target other indiehackers, like courses how to grow a saas, “masterminds” to speak to each other, resources for being a digital nomad, etc. Most of the actual business ideas presented there are micro saas, like basic online tools to send notifications or some form generator. Most of the people talk about being on twitter in the indiehacker scene, as if retweeting and liking each others posts would make their business grow. But in the end its a bubble where theres a lot of talk and “nothing gets done” Instead of concentrating on being looked up on in the “community” these people should go out and talk to actual customers and solve real problems, thats where the money is. But of course this doesnt sound cool like being a “digital nomad indie hacker” sitting on a beach in bali and coding away.
• synu 4y ago
  Influencers are selling a dream, which can be a part of the big picture, but you have to remember, much like the people who used to sell pamphlets on tv about how to get rich, you have to ask yourself why they are selling pamphlets instead of just doing whatever their pamphlets say.
• soneca 4y ago
  I went through a similar realization. Check my history of Show HN. I also have another HN account with even more failed Show HN. Keep in mind that there is luck involved. It is not the world that’s against you, it’s the chances. Also, the world of high interest rates is very different from the current world where money is not that cheap and people antecipate recession. That matters for indie hackers also, not just VC. From your post, I feel I handled the mental health better. When I realized it was not working for me, I was ok with it. I got a job. Actually, during my indie hacking tenure, I decided to learn to code and got a better and better paying job than before as a software developer. Also, I was never under any illusion that my chances of earning millions working a few hours a week were any better than very tiny. Expectations matter. Finally, with a well paid job, I can keep a side project that I care about that’s not only about the money. In my case, being a fiction writer, with an accompanying digital product to pair with. Any, try to relax for sometime. Then go back and rethink what you want with your life. What you learned will make your life better going forward.
• jwr 4y ago
  It is fricking hard, and I agree that the influencers sell a rosy picture. Usually it's not just a picture they're selling, too — ever noticed how many of those influencers earn money on selling services to people like you and me? All those businesses helping with marketing, analytics, E-mail campaigns, etc. Anyway, as someone who failed a number of times and then eventually succeeded in building a stable (what is derogatively called "lifestyle") business, I'm not sure if I have good advice to offer, apart from perhaps one thing: don't do B2C, a B2B business is the only way to go. Otherwise, it's just hard. And I agree about caring for mental health: this is important.
• drumhead 4y ago
  There's no shame in giving up especially if you've tried before. Many people go their entire careers without having the courage to do what you did. Think of this as a tactical retreat so you live to fight another day. You tried and I've got immense respect for you for doing that.
• powerapple 4y ago
  Great for you to have that experience. Isn't that what's life is for? Many people are burnt-out and hit rock bottom without doing anything exciting. Life is boring, just enjoy whatever you do, and do whatever you enjoy. You didn't choose to do it because you totally did not like it. There is nothing wrong with not succeed. Many of us do not succeed in our boring departments. Congrats on the journey you had, wish you have come out stronger and better. Look at the bright side, you probably missed many funny YouTube hours while doing your startup, so what :)
• einpoklum 4y ago
  > I couldn't seem to get anywhere.... My efforts were fruitless I don't quite understand. You wrote that you offered a product which solves a problem for an audience. That's an achievement! Maybe even a great achievement, depending on what the product is and how many people use it and for what. I don't mean to belittle the sting of not enough people caring, following, upvoting etc. - but if people are using your product, then you've bettered their lives, and that is commendable and admirable. Building a successful startup is not just not-easy, it is nearly impossible, in the sense that the vast majority of start-ups fail. Indeed, some people might be in a social echo-chamber where they get a distorted sense of what's feasible and what's easy. I would say the point is not just "pushing forward", but thinking about both the future of success and the future of - quite probable - failure of a start-up initiative. Also, considering whether what you want to produce will better help humanity if you promote it via a commercial enterprise or a free/public-benefit initiative instead.
• q-base 4y ago
  You are not your startup. And defining risky endeavours like entrepreneurship only by its outcome, is setting a trap for yourself. "Giving up" never got the recognition it needs. You cannot pursue new goals without letting go of old. You cannot find a new girlfriend without "giving up" on the old. Life is all about letting go and be open to where it takes you next. Good luck on your journey. Although the place you are in now feels miserable you will look back at it as a defining moment where new roads opened.
• deleted 4y ago
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• unrealp 4y ago
  You tried and failed. There are others who dont even try and live with regret. At least you have no regrets about not trying. Take care.
• locallost 4y ago
  There's a short part in Ed Catmull's book Creativity Inc. about how Steve Jobs timed the Pixar IPO after the Toy Story premiere to ride the hype wave and told Catmull to wear a dorky suit for the IPO investor tour that Catmull would never wear because it made him look like a scientist. It was important to present Catmull as a brilliant genius from the lab. Why I am saying this? I think selling something is a lot less rational then you'd think. And some people are frankly better than others at it. It's not enough to build something, even good, if people don't connect the dots on why it's good for them, or present it in a desirable way. And a lot of things these days people don't really need at all, so it gets even more difficult selling something. Another point that I think is important when I wear my amateur psychologist hat is, why are you doing that? Do you want to be recognized as a brilliant entrepreneur? Success? Money? Do you enjoy it for the ride? If it's that, is it really important what the outcome is? But your advice is also good - it's important to take care of yourself. Take care!
• jamil7 4y ago
  > I never had a paid customer Getting at least one paid customer shouldn't be all that hard, I feel like you've been spending too much time interacting with and marketing to "indiehackers" who are essentially influencers. Take a step back and a break from this world and maybe come at it from a different angle, go to the places your actual customers would be.
• piokoch 4y ago
  My experience shows that in order to succeed you need: 1) someone who knows marketing in the area you are targeting (medical equipment marketing is not the same as, say, cat hairdresser marketing or dev tools marketing); 2) someone who will sell - yes, a salesman, a person who likes to talk to customers, call people and knows how to sell stuff in your target group. I am not talking here about building all those famed sturtups created by 3 "scratch your own itch" techies in the cellar and that succeeded by pure chance or thanks to connections founders had or other factors that average indie founder cannot control. If you are indie dev, you should not make yourself dependent on luck or accident. Start with this: marketing guy, who knows the market, such person in two hours can invalidate your idea and give you 5 better ones. Learn some marketing stuff by yourself (books like Start Small, Stay Small will not make you rich in a day, but will open your eyes to the way things are working, most of this is obvious once you read it, but this is psychological "I knew that all along" phenomena - although you somehow knew this, you were not using this. Same with sales, stuff will not magically sell by itself. You can count that your product will become "viral" or something, but, again, you make yourself dependent on chance. Just have someone who will help you do the stuff, you are not that great at.
• vt85 4y ago
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• qikInNdOutReply 4y ago
  https://i.imgur.com/6GzFqxv_d.webp?maxwidth=520&shape=thumb&fidelity=high https://i.imgur.com/6GzFqxv_d.webp?maxwidth=520&shape=thumb&...
• fckvc 4y ago
  Entrepreneurship is a rich man's game. Notice that almost all of the guys who made it big come from wealth, and had the money and the contacts to lean on to make their product a success. I'm sorry you got caught out by the charlatans who hype up entrepreneurship and sell people lies about success. Please don't blame yourself, this isn't your fault, you were hoodwinked by false prophets.
  • tjpnz 4y ago
    >Entrepreneurship is a rich man's game. Notice that almost all of the guys who made it big come from wealth, and had the money and the contacts to lean on to make their product a success. That IMO puts you into a position where failure is all but impossible. As others have pointed out luck also has a part to play. But if you've got family financially supporting you (or at least able to bail you out) you will succeed eventually. How exactly do you do it when you're smart enough to be on here but don't come from that kind of background? Are you just supposed to accept it?
• kypro 4y ago
  Indie hackers had a great post a couple of years ago looking at how many projects posted there were actually successfully. I don't remember the details now, but I remember it being a depressingly small number that made me realise how statistically stupid it was to attempt to create a tech startup. I think the conclusion was that you probably had something like a low single digit percentage chance of building something that's profitable but makes < $1,000 / month. And the chance of building something that would replace your income was something like 1 in thousands. If you're building something you love then by all means do it, but as someone who's been in your position and who has seen several of my colleagues and friends in your position at this point I tend to recommend people against trying to create a tech startup. It's almost always a waste of time, money and more stress than it's worth. Plus it's not like we get paid bad for working a regular job in tech. Imo there's just way better ways to make money. Tech is weird in that you're competing against a lot of very smart people, the barriers to building a tech product are very low, and the competition is global. In contrast if you open a used car lot you'll typically be competing with few average business men in the area who had the capital to start the company. Your chances of success are astronomically higher even if it's capped. If you really want to start a company at least leverage the high income you make as a tech worker to start something with some barrier to entry. It might not make you a multimillionaire, but I've seen way more people successfully go from a tech job into opening a restaurant or into real estate. Anyway, sending you love man. I hope you're doing okay. I know how hard it can be accepting that your dreams will never materialise. I wanted to be an a tech entrepreneur since I was young teen. I wasted most of my best years behind a keyboard and monitor building stuff when I should have been having fun with friends. When I realised in my mid twenties that I wasted a decade of my life aspiring to something that would never happen it took something like 2-3 years for me to get over that feeling of being lost in life.
  • moneywoes 4y ago
    > If you really want to start a company at least leverage the high income you make as a tech worker to start something with some barrier to entry. It might not make you a multimillionaire, but I've seen way more people successfully go from a tech job into opening a restaurant or into real estate. Can you expand on this? Like commercial property? Restaurants are notoriously unprofitable
• deleted 4y ago
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• simon-am 4y ago
  Twitter's self made entrepreneurs are the worst, the endless threads how they make $50kPCM FROM THESE FEW TIPS. It's just modern day self-help gurus cashing in from a bit of influencing and self brand. As many people on this thread have said, this stuff is hard, and mainly about luck and of course all the stories that we hear are about success. I wouldn't discourage people to try though, if enough of us try one of us will make it. Just know that you'll probably fail, and as the op says, protect your mental health.
• Roark66 4y ago
  You know what helps (me)? Coming from the start with knowledge the success rate is about 10%. Some may say such "negative thinking" dooms your endeavour from the start. I disagree. One can be really committed and still know in the back of your head it is most likely to fail. This mindset not only means you'll not put your last savings into a venture that is very likely to fail, but also that you remain sane. Also, sometimes one just needs a break. If you can, take a year off. If you have to work to support yourself, try to take it easy.
• thom 4y ago
  For what it’s worth, your next venture will be more successful (and your mental health much better) if you turned off all social media and stopped comparing yourself to other entrepreneurs. It seems like what you’re seeking is acceptance and recognition more than business success. That’s fine and entirely human, but as you’ve discovered it’s an incredibly precarious pursuit. It’s not just business, you might start a family and see all the happy, positive posts by other parents which are also often lies. You have to find a way to be enough for yourself. The good news is, while it’s very hard to settle on the magic formula that gets you lots of followers and subscribers to your brand as an entrepreneur, actual entrepreneurship is quite straightforward if you are able to separate it from your identity. It does take perseverance because it’s a stochastic thing. But customers will tell you what pains them far more directly than someone could explain how to become a public figure. Forget about getting into the club. Concentrate on customers. Expect failure but don’t compare it to other people’s heavily curated success.
• welder 4y ago
  First, take care of yourself, then think about entrepreneurship. I'm reminded of the pinned tweet from the Nomad List entrepreneur[0]: > Only 4 out of 70+ projects I ever did made money and grew > Over 95% of everything I ever did failed > My hit rate is only about ~5% > So...ship more [0] https://twitter.com/levelsio/status/1457315274466594817 https://twitter.com/levelsio/status/1457315274466594817
• jsemrau 4y ago
  Take some time off. Spend time doing something else. Clear your mind. This year specifically is the Big Suck. I always have to laugh when people say it was so easy to raise funds in 2020/2021 and no DD was done. Maybe if you have the right network at the right time with the right product. I..e, all stars are aligned. But for the 99.99% this is not true.
• hunglee2 4y ago
  One of the most important things I've learned on the entrepreneur / solopreneur journey is that realistic expectation of failure is an important part of eventual success. That is launching ideas not because you are convinced that it will succeed or fearful that they will fail but with the mindset that no matter how great the idea, failure is a possible and even likely outcome. If you can cultivate a mindset of failure / feedback / iterate, you will increase your chances of eventual chances at something, not always the original idea. Agree on the insta-influencers tho, we need to see beyond this and understand that for these folks the brand / lifestyle is actually the product.
• gadders 4y ago
  I always like this comment:https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15659076 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15659076 "Entrepreneurship is like one of those carnival games where you throw darts or something. Middle class kids can afford one throw. Most miss. A few hit the target and get a small prize. A very few hit the center bullseye and get a bigger prize. Rags to riches! The American Dream lives on. Rich kids can afford many throws. If they want to, they can try over and over and over again until they hit something and feel good about themselves. Some keep going until they hit the center bullseye, then they give speeches or write blog posts about "meritocracy" and the salutary effects of hard work. Poor kids aren't visiting the carnival. They're the ones working it."
  • jacquesm 4y ago
    That's a fantastic comment.
• jraby3 4y ago
  You seem to be getting a lot of advice, some good some I disagree with. But I would say that this post on the front page of hacker news is an amazing opportunity for you to promote your three failed startups. Maybe one will get the traction you need.
• louison11 4y ago
  Have you considered stopping trying to be successful, and instead figuring out what would really make you happy? Just a thought. The most successful products in the world have come from people following their heart, trying to share something with the world, not people trying to get something FROM the world.
• mbtmac 4y ago
  Thank you for sharing this. Don't feel bad for failing after trying everything. I hope you get fully recovered soon, praying for you
• devdude1337 4y ago
  Let me just give a few opinions. First, social media is bad for mental health in general. From a business view it’s a marketing tool - use it as such and don’t follow anyone - why waste time reading stuff there anyway? As a founder you must run a business. A business is meant for earning money, not for fulfilling a dream. All the shiny posts about how successful a startup is, is just marketing. Smoke and whistles. It should attract the reader into buying the product or service. Your failure and bad feelings are you not realizing you still have a consumers mindset not that of a business man. Also there are endless business ideas and as such an idea has zero value. Execution is what adds value. Ideas themselves are worthless. As soon as you understand that a business is just about money, and you accept that cold reality of capitalism, the sooner you will find ways to success. Luck plays a role, too. But you need to be in places around people where opportunities are plenty. Successful businesses are built around successful people and their networks! Not social media networks!
• larsonnn 4y ago
  True
• antirez 4y ago
  You, cant', control, everything. Especially if you are not in the right place with the right connections and so forth. YC initial startups were cool built by smart people but their astonishingly high success rate is due to other factors as well: this not to diminish their value but to put things in context. So don't be mad at yourself if you can't create a successful business. Try to solve a smaller problem with paying customers to build your 500k/year business and enjoy life or just get a normal job and don't care. Take care.
• kmarc 4y ago
  I used to be a digital nomad (well, still a bit am) I never have been an entrepreneur. When I went to digital nomad events (cruise ship etc), most of them were pretentious Facebook advertisers, aka "digital marketing experts". With a quite low "salary", registered in one of those tax heavens (Cyprus) so that they kept most of their income, and didn't care about their future. Don't mix entrepreneurship with digital nomadism. They have nothing to do with each other. Once you are a successful entrepreneur, you might go to remote places to work, but the two doesn't have to (and usually doesn't) go together.
• jskrablin 4y ago
  Stop trying so hard and just do your own thing at your own pace. It might work it might not work and then you're back to a regular job with regular income, like most of the world. That's not a failure, that's how life usually goes. There are far worse things in life than failing as an entrepreneur. Or maybe instead of chasing business on Twitter, go about your local community, looking if there's anything you can offer to it. Ignore all the hyped up advice givers, book sellers and influencers. They aren't there to help you. They are there to promote themselves and sell their bs to their followers. You should've recognized this by now. Building anything is hard work. There aren't any shortcuts to get you a quick success... and if it seems there is one, you'll pay the full price for it sometimes later anyway. It is sometimes hard to stay sane in this world of "tech bros", likes, retweets, shares, sigups, etc... there's a lot of noise, but little signal.
• francois_h 4y ago
  I feel you. I’ve been trying to carve out my entrepreneurial dreams out for years too. I’ve got my main job, and trying different things on the side. At the end of the day, do what makes you happy. If you’re happy grinding away 18 hours a day to make that sale. Good on you. Me, I’m in my 40’s. I’m tired of trying to impress and grind. My current plan is to keep on doing my main job, but still look for opportunities. There’s this saying by mark Cuban I think. You only need to be right once. My recommendation is take some time off from entrepreneurship. Get a job or do consulting or contracting or something and make connections and just have fun doing it. The bug will bite again, but every failure makes you stronger and gives you insight on what not to focus on. Tweeting and social network stuff is nice to have but money pays the bills. Focus on the sale. Find out what problem there is and create an mvp and let people pay for it. Don’t spend 1000’s of hours building a solution when no one has even committed to it. Money pays the bills, not likes.
• noduerme 4y ago
  Just want to chime in as someone who lived as a "digital nomad" overseas for about a decade in the early 2000s before that was a fad - and never touted it: the influencers ruined it. Along with all the people trying to do the same thing. The whole point was to get away from the world of high school type popularity bullshit and go experience the world and other cultures long term, on their own terms. That's exactly the opposite of the package being sold by influencers. But also, although I had two major years-long, difficult and ultimately failed startup ventures of my own during that time period, they were side projects and never what paid the bills. So I'll let you in on what I see as the two big cons being sold to Gen Z: 1. Your startup will take off and be what establishes you. No. Startups are what you do in your spare time on the long chance that one of them hits and gets you to fuck you money. They only succeed if you already have connections from regular business, unless you're incredibly lucky and go viral for reasons no one can predict. 2. Degrees and certifications followed by 9-5 or 8-10 hours as an engineer will get you that freedom. They will not. What paid for my travel and for my house was something that is not sold at all on social media, and barely mentioned on HN. It was working as an independent contractor, coding and managing systems for small to midsized businesses. Shop owners. But not ANY shop. Only the ones where I thought they had a real chance of taking off. And then, at times, accepting some early equity as pay but only if I believed in it. At other times, demanding top dollar. And always working alone. Never under a boss, and never dealing with anyone lower than a CEO. I did not have a successful startup, and maybe I never will - although I still code for fun a lot, and who knows. But I took or turned down projects based on how I wanted to shape my career, and made myself indispensable and reliable at all hours for the clients I took, even if I was halfway around the world in a van on solar power. People like that are hard to find for a small business and eventually they rely on you. If I were in your shoes I would just print a business card and go to where people with growing small businesses hang out... with the idea of finding the next one that you can help grow, of which you will ultimately be CTO along with investments in other things, and time to pursue your own startups should you want to shoot the moon for that once-in-a-lifetime money. But the way it's sold these days reminds me of my little brother who graduated with a sociology degree and couldn't find a job. Working a regular job like retail was below him... but he spent years doing it having a grudge. Whereas I just didn't go to college, worked at a mall kiosk and learned to hack... and picked up my first major clients right there at the mall just by throwing ideas at them. [edit] I'd also like to add that I've never had an account on Instagram or Facebook, and the idea of trying to monetize a lifestyle - even one I actually had, let alone one I was just faking to gain followers - has always been revolting to me. But mainly for the same reason all self-help guruism is revolting, namely, if a person knows how to be as successful as they claim, they wouldn't need to sell the secret. Anyone who sells a supposed secret is therefore just cynically taking advantage of gullible people, which besides being unethical, doesn't count as an actual accomplishment.
• oliwarner 4y ago
  > It's okay to admit defeat and move on to something else. It is not defeat to not succeed at starting a business. I don't just mean in a semantic sense. It will hurt your ability to make good business decisions if you consider folding to be a personal failure. It is what it is. It didn't work this time and that still sucks, but you're absolutely on the right path here. Do something else for a while. Just being employed, doing something productive is a good antidote to all the soul-eroding things a business owner has to do. Oh and fuck social media. Seriously, if you choose to follow gigachads who risk money they can afford to risk and somehow make a profit every time, they're just not showing you the ventures that fail. Many are personality confidence tricks to begin with. The rest of us —that aren't Elon Stans anyway— are just slogging away. Do what makes you happiest. If you can afford the sentiment, money isn't everything.
• michaelin007 4y ago
  I think what matter most is the product. If the product already exist, the chance of success will be low especially if there are top companies in the competition. I think trying multiple time is great, chances of failure will always be higher than success but we gonna keep moving. Keep improving, learn SEO e.t.c Fund is really important, but one can always start small. I wish all indie entrepreneur like me well, we not gonna give up.
• racktash 4y ago
  I genuinely don't mean this to sound negative, or defeatist – sometimes nuance is difficult to convey in plain text. I think giving up a dream can sometimes be the best choice, the sensible choice. Some dreams just aren't going to work out (I say this from personal experience), and giving up on them allows you to move on to focus on other things that might work better. Take care of yourself and I wish you the best for the future.
• kebman 4y ago
  Survivor bias. Plus the mere act of "making it" is a great marketing tool on its own. People love to hear success stories, and in turn they might spend money on hearing those stories in order to learn the secrets of the survivor as it were. This is why there are so many such stories, yet one may wonder how many simply live off selling stories like that, instead of actually reaping the rewards of their purported success... IMHO if a guy can give out good advice for free, because he's already making enough on his success, then it's more authentic than a guy who sells his success stories. OTOH I get that successful people might be pressed for time, and that time taken away to tell the story might get in the way of following up on his actual success. In this way I guess success breeds success. And that's why you see a lot of people pushing their success stories due to survivor bias. We're actually talking pedagogy here. The perspective of a survivor is quite different than a guy still struggling. So the question really being asked is, how can the survivor better explain to the struggler how to succeed? It's difficult to answer, and it may entail such things as silent knowledge, or details that are hard to convey. The path to success is different for people, and some do indeed have it far easier than others. So how do you learn from that? Is the lessons from one-who-had-it-easy valuable? Well, sure, if those lessons lead to finding an easier route. But it could equally be a dead end. There is little to learn from one who was born with a silver spoon in his mouth, for instance, if your own spoon is made of lead. On the flipside, there might not be as much to learn from someone who struggled a lot, because what if that person simply made a lot of mistakes? Perhaps he is cognizant of those mistakes; well, then you may learn from them. But if not, then perhaps it isn't as valuable. Though in general, when you reflect over mistakes—your own, or others—there is perhaps a lot to learn from that, as you'll at least learn what to avoid.
• shanebellone 4y ago
  Fuck influencers. The vast majority haven't done shit but sell a dream.
• louison11 4y ago
  I struggled with the same before. What I invite you to look at is: are you trying to be successful more than you are trying to serve people? Business is helping people in exchange for money. If you’re super preoccupied about being successful, you don’t have the mental resourcefulness to genuinely figure out how to help others. The energy of “need” you put out in the world is reflected to you as scarcity. If you start shifting things around and genuinely look for people to help, things will change. But it may require some soul searching, which means time. I am sure there is something for you to learn here. You’ve given up on trying too hard, that’s a good thing. Now, don’t give up on yourself. You have something to give.
• emmelaich 4y ago
  I have met a few wanna be startup people in SV. I'm so often reminded of the 'ingenue in hollywood' trope. They really have some so much hope and so little experience. It can be brutal. https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/TheIngenue https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/TheIngenue
• kfrzcode 4y ago
  Can't handle the heat, get out of the kitchen. Guessing you're younger than 30.
• saluki 4y ago
  Hang in there. Creating something is hard. It can take many, many attempts and many years to have success. Stop for a while, take a job that can leverage your skills, learn new skills and get paid while doing it. There was a period where lots of startup founders I followed where getting real jobs I was like what is going on. Even the people you see as successful and idolize have issues and sometimes give up and take real jobs. Or take a real job and keep working on their side project. Entre-porn is a real issue, quit cold turkey. Relax, enjoy life with family and friends, get a pet, get new hobbies, enjoy nature. You can try this again in the future but give yourself a 1 yr of 2 yr break from it. And when you are ready to start again take it slow, look at Rob Walling's stair step approach. StartUpsForTheRestOfUs.com. This Startup School Talk by @DHH was made for you: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0CDXJ6bMkMY https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0CDXJ6bMkMY Make sure you're financially stable before trying again, having financial pressures can really add to the stress of trying to build your startup. It's totally possible to have a job and start something on the side. You'll enjoy startups for the rest of us. And if it feels all consuming and stressful, it might not be for you. Control your own situation, maybe you focus on your career and level up and then invest in startups instead of creating them. Make choices that are best for you and your happiness. Take care, enjoy the journey.
• kfrzcode 4y ago
  Giving up is giving up. Failing is continuing. Don't be a chump, don't give up.
• helloanoop 4y ago
  Ive said it before, I'll say it again. The thing that is harder than starting a startup is quitting it. You are brave, my friend, to even have attempted at building a startup. All people talk, very few have the conviction to give it a shot. The experience you gained while trying to build a business will pay dividends in the future. If you are a software engg, a lot of companies would love to hire you. And you can make great money, and you know what - You can mentally checkout at 6pm - salary will fall into your account on time everytime - You can enjoy your weekends PS: I am also a failed entrepreneur (sort of). The biggest thing my startup journey taught was how easy 9-5 is. And be grateful in life for having a job that pays well. All the best brother!
• jasfi 4y ago
  A lot of the journey is trying to pick the right idea. Something that people will take to and buy. I've heard that surveys can help with that, but there really is no guarantee. It also really helps to build up a following and be well known.
• usgroup 4y ago
  Indeed. You need blind luck and lots of it to be a successful first time entrepreneur. Just remember that there are also the people who sell shovels in a gold rush —- or for the modern times, start an exchange during a crypto craze. There are also investors and funds. Their maths looks different. Don’t be just a roll of the dice in someone else’s numbers game.
• yreg 4y ago
  >But please don't give up. Keep pushing forward and don't let the failures define you. There's always a chance for success, no matter how small it may seem. This advice is the exact opposite of the wisdom in the rest of the post. I’d say it’s okay to give up. If someone has a long term miserable life thanks to building their startup, then perhaps consider doing something that makes you more happy. There’s nothing wrong with that.
  • mikelovenotwar 4y ago
    > This advice is the exact opposite of the wisdom in the rest of the post. Very much this
• graemebenzie 4y ago
  Bet you didn't think you'd be top of hacker news
• jusssi 4y ago
  Getting no success is hard. But getting some initial success can be a trap. I spent 15 years of my life scraping by in various attempts to make something that sticks, and (too) slowly failed to find it. Finally I sold out to the dark side (consulting). The money is decent and the job is something I can forget when I clock out. Not being able to retire early will be my own fault for chasing the dream for too long, had I switched sooner it would still have been a possibility. Failing can be a good thing, it forces you out from something that's not working.
  • helloanoop 4y ago
    I feel you brother. The gut wrenching feeling of having waited far too long.
• bejonbee 4y ago
  Thank you for posting this. The world of solopreneur success stories is rife with survivorship bias. We need more candid conversations like this it balance the message. It is hard.
• axegon_ 4y ago
  I feel you. I'm gonna be honest, I've lost count of my attempts(solo or with others) for a course of 12 years. 2 years ago I completely gave up. This isn't an endeavor that anyone can take. Some of us are not built for it. As strange as it may sound, this is something best suited for people who are average at most related fields (marketing, sales and development) with slightly above average skills in one area. If your skills in any of those areas excel all others, you are doomed to fail. In my case I can easily devote a ton of effort to the tech side of things at near 0 mental cost and I'll go to insane lengths to make something perfect. The moment I step out of this field and have to face any of the other two, I can stare at a blank page for days not knowing what to do and feel mentally drained afterwards. When I came to realize this, I was kinda bummed, not gonna lie. My advice: don't sweat it and move on. Not worth spending effort thinking what it might have been: it isn't and it won't be so you shouldn't care. Simply move on.
  • rvba 4y ago
    If your startups kept failing for 12 years, where did you get money for food and rent?
    • axegon_ 4y ago
      Daily job: apart from it I have plenty of time on my hands: wfh, no family or kids, my diet strictly utilitarian(the most complicated meal I make is an omelette which takes less than 3 minutes), I am incapable of sleeping for over 6 hours/day. I've always had at least 6-7 hours a day to dedicate to whatever I want to do(usually more).
• mawadev 4y ago
  I'm a 27 year old nobody, but maybe I can give you a different perspective on things... Whatever you read online often has this goal: extract time and money out of you. So, whatever you expose yourself to online may skew the perspective on things for some purpose. A job however, is a balancing act between time, skill and money. The purpose is to satisfy your hierarchy of needs. A company is the same but with more moving parts, but the reality is often different from what is being said. So, in such an environment, I chose to never attach a deeper meaning to it - there is nothing special to it, unless I believe in it. I don't base my identity around any economic output, numbers or whatever my job title is at the moment. Running a startup would just mean more attachment to one thing. You have been sold on an idea and emotion, that has little basis in reality. This dissonance ripples through your entire being and it's taking a toll on you. A lot of people failed before you and you never hear from them. This experience however is necessary to shift your perception towards what is real. Having this detachment from what the consensus is, gives you the ability to see the things the way they are. You won't be stressed out when things go wrong, because your definition of wrong stops adapting. A startup ceases to be a vessel to be successful, because the very definition of successful stays within your intention and not what the world seems to define as successful. By getting rid of this, you can focus on whats real and what matters. You move out of your head and start observing and acting in the real world. You don't think of what should be - skewed by perception, but what could be - by letting your experience of life take over. This is the basis of creating things in my opinion. You won't be paralyzed by the things that people tell you should be right (like ticking off a checklist to build an audience for an ROI), but rather what makes the most amount of sense from your POV. I take things very slowly. As a developer I used to do very complicated things as fast as possible, but over time I embraced simplicity and balance over everything. Some things are out of your control and it's important to see when your area of influence stops and when you are being sold an idea that plays with that perception of reality. I managed to rest in myself and don't care "if I make it". My definition of "making it" is a roof over my head, food on the table, hygiene, transportation, physical activity, social interaction and time for myself. My value system is true or false, not a range between 0 and infinite. If a car gets me to a place for example, it does what its expected to do, I don't believe in the bells and whistles I'm being presented. So my intention is to keep this car driving and not how this car compares or relates to anything. It is a tool and stays a tool. Success in my books starts with a true in it's foundation and not what the treadmill of 10, 50 or 100 in all it's facets sums up to, if you know what I mean. Realizing this gave me a different perspective on dreams. I saw how some dreams were never mine to begin with. Whether I will achieve something the world tells me is successful now or in 10 years or if at all ultimately doesn't matter. I'm in for the experience and let nature unfold. I do what works out for me. When you layer this sense of security up, you can start replacing layers by moving or switching jobs or trying to launch a company, because your life won't fall apart and you have this eternal rest and trust in yourself. No idea can consume you or act on different layers. You can still get a good nights rest, because things stay where they are. I hope I could explain my perspective and give some insights...
• kybernetyk 4y ago
  Define "making it". Do you want a million/billion dollar startup? Or would be a "lifestyle business" enough for you? I can tell you that I'm pretty happy with my small business selling desktop software to "normies". But if my benchmark was Elon Musk or some VC funded dude having millions at his disposal ... well I'd be miserable, too. But my benchmark is the small business next door and compared to them I'm doing very well. Heck, I don't need to engage "fellow indie hackers" on "$product hunt" and collect twitter followers because that's completely irrelevant to my bottom line. All I need is a good sales copy and a little SEO. I don't know you but maybe re-aligning your goals would make you happy?
• tmp60beb0ed 4y ago
  There is some kind of a signal here. This message got you 373 upvotes in a few hours. Maybe you should do something with this.
• jimmydddd 4y ago
  Have you considered buying a working business? There's no shame in not starting from scratch. You can get something with proof of concept and take it to the next level. Even Tesla had some parts in place when Elon came in.
• fullstackchris 4y ago
  This hits very close to home, so I'll provide as much advice I can give. First: don't focus solely on the huge product launch / startup mentality. As a solo dev this is a recipe for a depressive disaster. Instead, I recommend you do a mix of things, like creating youtube videos, software courses, software consulting, and so on. This way you cast a wide net and if any one of those areas doesn't do well or hits a rough patch, you can put more effort into the others. Yeah, it's a grind, but that's kind of the social contract we sign when we go indy / soloprenuer. I have a modest following and I very often repeat your warnings about these so called digital nomad gurus and entrepeneuers, at least those you see all the time on socials. I hate that whole scene - the crap those people push out is mind bogglingly useless banter. It even drove me to delete my Twitter completely a few months back because I kept seeing like 6 of the same software accounts upvoted to the moon just by repeating stupid trope without any hands on advice, implementations, or anything of any real actionable value. Those people either got lucky or were first to market, but the overwhelming majority of them don't know a damn thing about software, let alone building full stack products or apps used by real customers. However, as you've said yourself: building any successful startup is extremely hard, time consuming, and can be extremely frustrating at times. If it helps further, I was exactly where you were only a few weeks ago and I posted nearly the same thing here on HN: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=33835532 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=33835532. This industry is unforgiving and we all have weeks or even months of dark times. I had just felt cheated by a few people I had otherwise trusted (so a slightly difference sense than your post I guess, but same discouraged theme). Fast forward two weeks later and I'm working for myself again and loving it. and usually, once you're an entrepeneuer, it likely won't go away ;) just don't force it, who knows, you may return with a badass product weeks, months, or years from today! Hope this helps and that you can enjoy the holiday season with whomever you may have in your life. Take a break! Best of luck, happy holidays, and best wishes.
• j245 4y ago
  Ironically if you linked your projects here, you would see more traffic :)
• panchtatvam 4y ago
  A baby learns to just walk in three years. If you want to fly in 3 years, you better do a job. Business is not for you.
• karol 4y ago
  Mate, if you failed to make $10 online it means there is something seriously wrong with your mental model of how the world and business works. I am sorry about your health, of course get that addressed first. Then ask yourself what you want and get someone who had more success than you to point out what's wrong with your beliefs and approach.
• JumpinJack_Cash 4y ago
  Considering all the comments about the amount of luck among the top performer entrepreneurs I am always flabbergasted by how HN is so vocally opposed to the confiscation of fortunes in excess of 1bn . It seems like the natural consequence, the bigger the lottery win, the bigger the cut that society takes out of the lucky winner. It’s only natural and if somebody were to spit on 999.99M they deserve to also have that remaining amount confiscated.
• szundi 4y ago
  I just exited my first one, bought up by a listed company. I think the main reason a lot of startups fail is that it is started out as "I want to have a startup just now at once", and not the reverse direction. All my high school and university life I was just open all the time, and every other week/month some good opportunity came with people holding money in their hands. My father was kind of a guy who everyone called if had a problem, he was the channel of these. One day this idea came that with years of work we can have this recurring revenues and this is even cool, started it with friends, win. Point is: the agenda was not to have a startup, but I had gigs with open eyes. And I was picky to stop and choose this, I can tell you. Just my 2 cents.
• ridruejo 4y ago
  "Building a startup is hard work and it takes time." "I'm giving up on my entrepreneurship dreams." Take time to recover mentally and financially. You can always try again at a later time (or not), and do it in a gradual way, not all-or-nothing (take a look at the 37Signals books). You at least tried, and won't have regrets of never have attempted it. Though it is hard to see it right now, you probably have learnt a few things that hopefully you can put to use in the future. Good luck and hope things improve.
• tpetry 4y ago
  > It's also the constant stream of digital nomad influencers on Twitter who sell extremely distorted, rosy, and often times false dreams to indie entrepreneurs like myself. They make it seem like building a successful startup is easy and anyone can do it with the right mindset and a few key tips. Most of them sell the idea they are successfull. But once in a blue moon they share their real MRR and you are shocked. Because most of them make 1-2k and behave like they are successfull and can live from it. Most are just pretending and are never successfull at all. But they know each other and push each other which make it seem you are the outlier of being a ”failure“.
• _davide_ 4y ago
  indie entrepreneurs?? this is not an hobby! either you are all in or do something else! prepare to fail! you should fail, if you are not failing you are not pushing yourself enough, and it's painful for everyone. I saw the evolution from a tiny 3 people company to a 150+ and growing, my boss and friend went from one struggle to another, as elon musk put "it's like staring into the abyss while eating glass". It's that hard and gets emotional right away. indie entrepreneurs? influencers? really? it's an insult to everyone that put their soul into it, it makes my blood boil. There is no half measure, if you think this way you won't succeed.
• bovermyer 4y ago
  What is your "entrepreneurship dream?" Being able to build startups for the rest of your life? Building a single successful company? Building a company that earns you enough to live?
• psychstudio 4y ago
  Been there, done that. However, the worst position to find yourself in is partial traction. A few customers, giving you that slight bit of hope to keep grinding. Then after 5 our more years, you've made 20K and are stone motherless broke. Or maybe that's just me. Chin Up dude.
  • helloanoop 4y ago
    So true brother. Partial traction is the worst. If you enter business, either go big or go home.
• pettycashstash2 4y ago
  Look at it this way. You are no SBF in terms of failing, ie it could be worse. Cheer up and know that you tried.
• sebastianconcpt 4y ago
  This is good starter for a conversation, but I'm afraid text is not the medium for it. You're right in going to a recover phase. Move on to something that isn't yours but give you a good foundation with at least a decent team and keep going waiting for a more adequate opportunity for you to try something of your own again.
• sjducb 4y ago
  I can only tell you what's working for me. I'm telling you my story because while you cite mental health as the problem, I think its reasonable to have mental health problems when your company and life collapses. Instead I think it's sensible to build a safety net so that you never hit "rock bottom." I've started 3 SAAS buisnesses that failed. I'm also almost FI because I saved (and invested) my salary as an employee and then later as a contractor. Now I split my time between contracting gigs, personal family time, holidays and working on new startup ideas. It's a long term sustainable lifestyle that gives a good standard of living, lots of free time, and the opportunity of a longshot where one of my bootstrapped start-ups takes off. The contracting gigs and investments give me that safety net so that it's ok if my startups fail. I know three people who took this approach, then had million dollar exits from their successful Startups, and another who pivoted into a successful million dollar buisness that they will never sell. The more common outcome is what im getting: a long career of short contracts, paid off house, family and upper middle class lifestyle.
• flybrand 4y ago
  Do what’s best for you; it’s hard to see other project a false reality about entrepreneurship when you’re doing the work and not achieving what you want.
• Eddy_Viscosity2 4y ago
  You can do everything right and still fail. It's just the way a system is works when there are more people trying to be successful then there is room in the space for them to be successful. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pigeonhole_principle https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pigeonhole_principle What's more frustrating is that people can also do the wrong things and succeed anyway.
• rtuin 4y ago
  I'm writing this post because I'm done. [...] But for me, I can't take it anymore. I've hit rock bottom and I have nothing left to give. [...] Don't let your dreams consume you like they did for me, I find this really alarming and hope that OP is OK'ish now, and that this is not a suicide note.
• deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
• athul_jayaram 4y ago
  Being a startup founder myself. I know the pain. Taking care of your mental health itself is very important. And yes listen to your heart and not what somebody says.
• mpdehaan2 4y ago
  Yeah you are absolutely not alone. I was lucky enough to have a startup make it about seven years ago. I do not think I could do it in today's environment AT ALL and also don't know how to use any of my past 'success' to repeat something. Starting from 'not that' would be infinitely harder, that's not fair for anyone, and that sucks. I completely agree with the whole problem of how social media and tech 'influencers' have ruined the ability to get ideas out there. I also think that the zeitgeist of what is possible and popular today is very limited, and made worse by many end-users being burnout and uncurious. This website glamorizes startups and should not. It's not a golden path for most anyone. It makes people think it's remotely easy, and it's 99.999% chance for most good people that are well rounded enough with a great idea and 99.999% rich people connections for everyone else. It requires (potentially) a ton of life force energy expenditure - if you're an honest person - that can potentially, quite literally, kill you. If you aren't honest you might make it in whatever grift, and wouldn't have as hard of time being around people that you aren't ethically compatible with. I can see without a platform to launch exactly the right idea without the absolute perfect timing how much harder or nearly impossible this would be. Those platforms are not really available to people who don't know "the right people" and act appropriately greasy and self-important these days, IMHO, so there's even more of a luck coefficient than there was 10 years ago. I want to say "happy thoughts" but we really need smaller communication paths, more diversity of tech approaches and alternative methods, and more funding that attempts to create stable profitable businesses and not unicorns. We need twitter to die so tech influencing stops being a thing that gets followers, and instead projects and ideas get that attention (and participation) instead. Even then, I'm not sure it's going to be "fixed". Right now, surely though, it does create some terribly bloated technology.
• dead_rubbish 4y ago
  I hope you're ok.
• tyiz 4y ago
  It takes 10 years until success
• schizo89 4y ago
  Troll
• petodo 4y ago
  I don't really understand why did you expect different result? The vast majority of startups fail, the odds are against you. I could understand trying once, but try two more times and be surprised by result? But maybe there is something wrong with me for not following any influencers and stay down to earth.
• paul7986 4y ago
  This stuff is hard whether it's crickets for what you're working on to there's people knocking but you can never seal the deal. That has happened to me with various technologies (some require lots of capital from our pockets we aren't willing to put up) I've created with technical co-founders a few times. When it does it's time to take a mental health break. After a 3 to 6 months to over a year break I'll come back and start working on one of those technologies yet now it's only for fun. Never do I now give it much thought of it ever making much to any money rather it's all for personal enjoyment. I have gained something awesome through from my startups I've help build and that is tech skills I learned/now use to make a decent living in tech.
• possiblydrunk 4y ago
  All things end. The trick is knowing when to move on to the next thing -- quitting when things are bad, but also cashing out when things are good. Don't get stuck in the well. I know it's frowned upon these days (perversely, in my view), but wow what resilience. @wakana should realize the value of that and how powerful that can be in the next endeavor. Maybe battered and bruised, but survived! In this case, maybe it was the wrong matchup - entrepreneurship isn't for everyone, or [bad] luck. Biggest mistake made was maybe hanging on too long -- resilience can be double-edged, too.
• brandelune 4y ago
  How many digital nomad influencers vs would-be entrepreneurs who keep wasting time on IT social networks? This ratio alone should make it very clear to you that most of that world is fake and just here to entertain you when you feel alone in front of your machine.
• memorable 4y ago
  This is also something that I feel when trying out a new hobby like gamedev or music or art. I know it is definitely possible to have success on those, but I feel like it was such a reach.
• forgotpwd16 4y ago
  >After three failed attempts at building a successful startup In many stories I read authors said they've done 20+ attempts before getting a success. >I tried everything Besides hard work, luck and connections also play a role. Maybe even the most important one. >Building a startup is hard work and it takes time. I am not participating in Twitter but think here in HN this is the general consensus.
• timwaagh 4y ago
  Look all these influencers do is get advertising revenue from their content. Which might be easy enough for them. They don't own a real economy type business.
• joshwolff 4y ago
  Hate to say it, but you sound like you're victimizing yourself. You're not a victim. And victimhood mentality likely played a large role in your failure. Try to change your mindset and try again when you feel you're ready.
  • nowherebeen 4y ago
    OP needs to accept responsibility for his choices. Blaming it on other people for his choices doesn’t seem right.
  • KaiserPro 4y ago
    I don't thinks this reply is helpful. Its basically saying "its your fault you failed, moreover you are going to fail again because of your attitude" turning this question around to you: have you ever managed to "change your mindset"? assuming you have changed your mindset, did it materially change your circumstances? Because if you're still in a hole, "being mindful" isn't going to affect that.
    • blix 4y ago
      > have you ever managed to "change your mindset"? did it materially change your circumstances? Not GP, but yes and yes. Personal growth is indeed possible!
    • joshwolff 4y ago
      Do you even know how to read? Did I say "being mindful"? The entitled OP claims they deserve millions of dollars (via a successful startup) - all they had to do was try. They then blamed everyone else for their failure except themselves. You will NEVER succeed in a startup if you cannot accept fault and be a leader. Actually, my reply is the ONLY reply they need. They don't need to be babied. Reread their post: "I tried everything [I was supposed to]" "But no matter what I did, I couldn't seem to get anywhere." "It was as if the world was against me" "no matter how hard I tried, I couldn't make any progress" "It was like I didn't even exist in the world of entrepreneurship." "please don't be fooled by the false promises"
• zelphirkalt 4y ago
  It is OK! Well, the selling of distorted dreams by others is not, but what I mean is, that it is OK to not be a founder or entrepreneur! For some people it is the right thing, for others it is not. There are many factors involved. Things like "How much can I accept to not do what I want, but to do what I am told by an employer?" or stress resistance. Best wishes!
• chrsw 4y ago
  I don't mean to sound glib but I thought that was the way our society was supposed to work: tell everyone to try really hard knowing only a few will make it. But with everyone busy trying that pushes things forward. Sure, the game is kinda rigged and the rewards aren't spread around evenly (not even close). But hey, it got us this far.
• sAbakumoff 4y ago
  >> But please don't give up. Keep pushing forward and don't let the failures define you. Yeah, sure, and then die one day realizing that you spent your life chasing illusionary goals that were injected into your mind by bulshitters on twitter. Way to go, mate!
• lettergram 4y ago
  > It's also the constant stream of digital nomad influencers on Twitter who sell extremely distorted, rosy, and often times false dreams to indie entrepreneurs like myself. I touched on this in an essay I wrote years ago https://austingwalters.com/an-essay-on-wealth-and-freedom/ https://austingwalters.com/an-essay-on-wealth-and-freedom/ While I think trying to build a startup is fine, it’s probably not the best way to build wealth. To put it bluntly, you are most likely to build a successful startup when you have domain expertise and nothing to lose. That’s why funding a kid who has no family and a few years experience is probably a decent bet. They are cheap, passionate (work hard for the money) and think a bit differently than the entrenched businesses (the YC model). If you want to build wealth, you probably take a different path. Find a good job in tech, work for 4-5 years playing politics a bit. Then cash out and find a mid-tier position at a remote job in rural USA, 30-60 min from a major city. Find a wife / husband from the area and buy 20 acres and have a farm. You’ll be wealthier and happier than anyone in the city and still be able to access most amenities within a short drive.
• MLH6ft1 4y ago
  Dude at least tell us what you were working on? I mean there is zero context to this post. How am I to process the fact your product got zero sign ups when you haven't even mentioned what it is. "Don't make the same mistakes I did", what mistakes have you even highlighted here (and I mean mistakes related to your product and not the fact that you fell for the honey trap posts' of social media influencers)???? 257 comments to this post submitted by user whose account was only created 2-3 hours ago!! I feel this is a post that someone may have generated using ChatGPT.
  • abhagsain 4y ago
    Exactly how I felt after reading the post lol.
  • FollowingTheDao 4y ago
    > Dude at least tell us what you were working on? Why doe sit matter? Jesus, he was just institutionalized, you people are cruel. And who cares about how long ago the account was created?
    • marcusverus 4y ago
      OP is not a delicate butterfly. Get off your high horse.
      • FollowingTheDao 4y ago
        What does having psychiatric issues have to do with being a "delicate butterfly"? I have schizoaffective bipolar disorder, nothing delicate about me.
    • kirso 4y ago
      I believe its because the person wants to gain a benefit from the post instead of being empathetic or giving his/her take on it. Well, not everything is about you. Be kind and empathetic. Merry Xmass everyone!
  • rightbyte 4y ago
• abhagsain 4y ago
  You have received a lot of advice here. I'm curious to know what were the products you shipped?
• nier 4y ago
  I gave up as well. Fell on hard times. Needed to take a job. Everything turned out great. My personal solution was to take all the humiliation and frustration, let it ripe and turn it into gratitude. So I’m grateful for not having the responsibility of running the business and finding customers. I gladly take the pay cut that comes with that. At this point of my life, I far more appreciate the positive feedback of „only“ a dozen colleagues coming my way and the success we share as a group. …and as it turns out Steve also has something nice to say about us „not destitute” people. :D https://twitter.com/nier/status/1606268364371869697 https://twitter.com/nier/status/1606268364371869697
• bbq123 4y ago
  Mental health is extremely important and should be given a priority in ones. Also, being a startup founder is not the only way to be happy and successful these days. Still, it is sad to see someone, who apparently has so much discipline and persistence to give. Hit me up on Twitter (@phprunner) in a few days, maybe we can talk.
• ajju 4y ago
  It is ok to give up. It is ok to come back to entrepreneurship to it if you want at some point. It is ok to never think about entrepreneurship again. What matters is that each point you make the decision that makes sense to you. And if you choose to look back one day, you may find that despite failing being an entrepreneur for some time helped you in ways you may not have realized or anticipated. Either way, as you said, optimize for your mental health. All responsibilities in life seem like chains some of the time, but if your startup feels like a chain all the time - then by all means - break the chain.
  • ajju 4y ago
    Here’s a corollary that has worked for me and that I want to share - if, in general your startup feels like freedom - even if it has required you to work long hours for many years -(as all startups do for at least a while) - long hours that most people equate with chains - then it’s not only ok to keep doing the startup but it’s perhaps advisable - that at those inevitable moments when you do feel like a failure you don’t give up - that you give yourself enough time to try all the things you’d want to. It is ok to fail at a startup and not give up because the mindbendingly frustrating thing about startups is that even when you are succeeding you experience a lot of failure, and success rarely seems to precede at least one period that feels like utter failure. I realize the tone of this advice may seem contradictory to my comment above, but it’s not. If a particular set of responsibilities that feel like chains to many / most people in the world feel like freedom to you - then by all means - keep enjoying the freedom, don’t let the world define it for you, and don’t give up when the roller coaster hits a low.
• gherlein 4y ago
  19 of 20 startups "fail." Meaning they don't exit for huge valuations. Go look at many of the "successes" and the founders had a deep safety net. Meaning they could afford it. Access to affordable capital and luck. Seriously. Don't be down on yourself. Did you learn? Probably. Did you make deep friendships along the way? Probably. Those count too. Don't let hyper-capitalism define "success" for you.
• contentboot 4y ago
  How hard it is to come up with good ideas is greatly underestimated. Here is a paper on A/B testing that the Bing search team conducted under Microsoft. https://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=3171224 https://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=3171224 Hidden in there in a distribution graph is that 2% of the ideas that were A/B tested resulted in 74.8% of the improvements. Now you can ask yourself what are they considering improvements which is a valid answer but that really struck me. Section 4.3 Figure 3a.
• hellothere1337 4y ago
  you might have skipped the most important step, being born in a well connected rich family that can give you free advertising for your products. This really boosts your luck!
  • sdze 4y ago
    That is the true secret.
• ArtemH 4y ago
  I cannot say that I'm a clear Indie Startup entrepreneur. Because I'm not. But I work in the area of engagement and finding new customers for the product that don't really exist yet. I've started to raise my language skill, so I even didn't know English well, and it seemed impossible to me like learn foreign language for 3 months. But I'm still here. I have already spent 7 months trying to find first customers (our early adopters). It's almost impossible, hard, it takes everything and more from your healthy life. But I stopped trying to give up because it's not an opportunity, rather a block - it's only in your mind. Of course, I want result, and success. My key is to diversify my life activities. Never forget about hobby and my personal time. It helps not to be frustrated. But work is work, make money is not the only target - more energy are eaten when you haven't any results..
  • moneywoes 4y ago
    May I ask what your strategies are? What do you find works best?
• kryz 4y ago
  Comparison is the thief of Joy. It sounds like you need to get off social media.
• dgudkov 4y ago
  I'm afraid the author has a very wrong attitude for entrepreneurship. Entrepreneurship is not about following someone's advice mechanically or a guaranteed get rich schema. It's about building competence and understanding something about the target market better than anyone else. The author didn't mention what kind of competence s/he has got from all those attempts, so I suppose it has never been the goal. The competence may or may not lead to a commercially successful enterprise. But even in the case of failure, the explanation should still be based on competence, e.g. "I understood that the product didn't provide much value to the target audience because of X, and also the audience turned out to be Y, and the competition was Z. So while I learned about the market a lot, I couldn't offer anything that would provide so much value that the target audience would be ready to pay for with amounts sufficient to maintain developing the product". If the postmortem is "I tried to follow what influencers said, but it didn't work, so I'm tired, I give up" then, well, no surprise here. And yes, startups are hard. Very hard.
• opyate 4y ago
  Succeeding in the startup world reminds me of the funfair analogy: The rich kid will have a go at throwing the dart at the balloon, and miss. But, because they're a rich kid, they just take out their wallet (or parents' wallet), get more stubs, and try again (and again) until they hit the balloon. The middle class kid will have a go at throwing the dart at the balloon, and also miss. Then they will walk away, saying that was fun, and go hang out with their mates. But maybe the 10th or the 100th middle class kid will hit the balloon. And the working class kids? They work at the funfair. They never get to throw darts. Here's the kicker: those kids who hit the balloons? One or two of them might go off and start a blog/podcast, or write a book titled - Zero To Plushy - The Dart Thing About Dart Things: Plushy Hunting When There Are No Easy Answers - Dart Throwers at Work: Stories of Plushy Hunters' Early Days - You Are a Badass at Hunting Plushies: Master the Mindset of Throwing Darts - The Lean Plushy Hunter - &c Hell, if it's the middle class kid writing the book, they might even throw a couple of anecdotes in there about how they didn't have an easy start (compared to the rich kid), and it might even be true for them. That book is the catnip that folks like you and me base our life decisions on. I had a go at 3 startups, only one of them quasi-full-time, as I self-funded with freelancing. (I spent years building a "turn PDFs into data" product, had a few paying customers, and then one day got made totally redundant by Google Vision.) Needless to say, I got completely burned out on startup number 3. I shuttered the business just as Covid hit. I spend more time with the family (wife, two daughters, 9 and 6), and we moved to the countryside to be closer to ageing parents and siblings with kids. It's healing time, baby I wish you all the best
  • syndacks 4y ago
    So…you’re a rich kid?
    • opyate 4y ago
      Heh, it's been a tumultuous ride for my family. Paternal grandad was a civil servant, and they were comfortable, but grandad died when dad was 6. Granny married a drunk and lost everything. Step-grandad beat them. My dad grew up a rebel. His saving grace was a teacher who said: I don't care if you don't come back to school, but promise me one thing: you'll read a book a week. Mum and dad meet quite young, and have me when mum was still a teen. We're dirt poor, and they borrow a lot of money from maternal grandad, who is a gold miner with 7 kids. He gets my dad a job at the mine. The 80s in South Africa were boom years for gold, and everyone does well. My dad pays maternal grandad back all their debts, and I distinctly remember how our lives changed as a young chap. Not rich by any stretch, but we're not hungry or shoddily dressed. My dad is smart enough to spend money on important things, like getting us a home PC, and paying for skills, like my Karate and scuba diving. However, in my late teens, things start changing again. Jobs dry up for dad, mum leaves him, he falls into depression. Finances rise and fall as dad gets back into work, and makes a bit of money day trading. I drop out of uni, as we can't pay for it anymore. He meets a nice new lady, who inherited a piece of land, and they scrape just about enough money and know-how together to start developing the first phase of a four-phase development. But, he gets fucked by the bank. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Absa_Group_Limited#Mortgage_loans_misconduct https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Absa_Group_Limited#Mortgage_lo... Three weeks after my wedding in 2014, he commits suicide. Either severely depressed, or so that the bank can't come after him. He leaves whatever they have left in a secure estate to the grandchildren, and stepmum can live in the house until she dies. The kids (me and sis, and 3 step sisters) inherit nothing. Me? I was privileged enough to learn programming in school. The gold mines funded the schools well, and in 1990 already (when I was 11/12), our classroom had 20 Commodores in it. That was my saving grace: coding. I could earn good money, and self-fund most of my bad decisions. (My first startup: we won Startup weekend, then got a £50K grant from Telefonica - all pure luck, and a little bit of tapping into the zeitgeist at the time: polling apps)
• Archipelagia 4y ago
  This might sound a bit assholish, but I'm writing this to hopefully help others spot a crucial mistake: Did you have anyone on your team with actual skill in sales or marketing? Because from your post it seems you tried the same channels that everyone else does (writing blog, engaging on Twitter, setting up ProductHunt launch) without any specific strategy for how to succeed. And this stuff is hard! There's a reason why good salespeople and marketers are paid so well! You definitely can learn that, it's a skillset like any other. But treating it like a secondary concern is a death trap for your business. If you are a tech founder, it's absolutely crucial you figure out a strategy for customer acquisition – find a sales co-founder, hire some good salespeople, get someone who can teach you how to do it – just do not treat it as something less important than tech, because then you are just counting on being lucky. And if you decide to sell yourself, expect that to be a difficult, time consuming job – don't be surprised if you spend more time chasing business rather than coding.
  • thealchemistdev 4y ago
    I 100% agree. I've been hacking away at my project for about 5 years, and it went absolutely nowhere until I found my co-founder. In a span of 4 months, she quadrupled the eyes on our product in comparison to what I was able to before our meeting. Sales & Marketing is just as complex as the tech stack. Yes, we techs can learn that side of the fence, but it takes a bit of humility to recognize that it'll come at a cost.
    • moneywoes 4y ago
      What levers did she implement?
  • sanderjd 4y ago
    This is the realization that turned me off of very early stage entrepreneurship. That stuff is so boring, and also pretty much the only thing that matters in the very early stage of a startup.
  • silent_cal 4y ago
    Maybe a dumb question, but where do you find people who are skilled in sales/marketing like this? I'm learning this lesson the hard way right now.
• andix 4y ago
  It’s really hard to be successful with something new. With new products. That’s why most companies do something very traditional. Plumbing, baking bread, hosting servers, building „boring“ websites, … If you want to invent something new, you need to be exceptionally creative and exceptionally lucky. It’s okay if you aren’t.
• groestl 4y ago
  > Building a startup is hard work and it takes time. It's not as easy as they make it seem and it's not for everyone. And, as others have mentioned, it takes a lot of luck. I mention this specifically, because your words seem like you still believe it's you. It's not. Your fine. It's circumstances, almost entirely.
• shahidkarimi 4y ago
  While reading this thread, I had the illusion that this was posted by me.
• xakpc 4y ago
  that's ok I gave up too (after a 6 years on my second company) I get back to a full time job I have more sleep, earn more, travel more and much more relaxed Now if I build something, I do it just for fun without any expectation Maybe in couple years I will try again, maybe not
• jasfi 4y ago
  There are a lot of things you can do for your mental health. Good habits for diet and exercise go a long way. Learn how to manage your stress. If entrepreneurship is taking a toll on you, then by all means do something else, you may come back to it one day in a better state to try again.
• alka0309 4y ago
  [dead]
• xyst 4y ago
  For what it’s worth, it seems like you put all of your eggs in one basket. You need to have clear indications of success AND failure. There’s always a point where you say, “it’s X months so far, none to minimal revenue, burn chart indicates this project will go under” and actually kill/shelf the project. It sucks that you got the idea that it was ever “easy” and your mental health suffered as a result. I fucking hate those people. These are probably the same people that say “programming is for everybody. Anybody can write code”. In reality, it’s just not.
• OhNoNotAgain_99 4y ago
  [dead]
• tqwhite 4y ago
  I am old. I have had two companies and about half my adult life self-employed. I have never gotten rich. I had fun for part of the time in each company or situation. Less fun for the rest. Here is my advice: Don't every do anything that is not fun. Don't ever do anything you cannot afford to do. This means do not waste your very, very short life on ambition for its own sake. Only start a company if it is fun to be doing it. Don't gamble your economic future. You have to pay for things. Failing to save for your old age is as irresponsible as not saving money for your kid's education or making your spouse pay all the bills. When I recognized that my fantasy of self-employment and riches was never going to be real, I got a job. It felt like a vacation. Someone else figured out what to do. I just solved the problem. Direct payroll deposit is like magic. You wake up one day and your bank account is full again. Putting money in savings is like an orgasm. You can do it again and again and it always feels good. Americans have this insane idea that work and business are so so so important. Like this kid, I have been through it. Unlike him, for decades. I am telling you: Capitalism is very often toxic. Don't do it unless you are doing something fun and can afford the price while meeting your other responsibilities. Don't do it at the cost of your real life, friends, spouse, kids, hobbies, books. You only live once. Business is absolutely not the right priority. Nobody old wishes they had worked more.
• worldsavior 4y ago
  You know how many people tried to build start-ups and failed? Many then you can imagine, and they're heartbroken has you are, it's not necessarily personal. Sometimes business needs some luck, or maybe you product just was...bad, which is ok, that's how you progress. Life is a hit and miss, but you need to learn from mistakes. Because if you aren't, you will never succeed. At least you gathered experience, and if you still have some motivation and a good idea for a start-up, go for it!
• brightball 4y ago
  9/10 small businesses and startups fail. Most don’t make money in the first 5 years. It’s a slog. It’s exhausting. Once you do it, your perspective about a lot of things changes. A full time job with a steady paycheck seems like vacation. https://www.brightball.com/articles/what-exactly-happened-to-brightball-for-hire https://www.brightball.com/articles/what-exactly-happened-to...
• asdfiwerio 4y ago
  The irony that this is perhaps your most popular post and you didn't plug the product, may want to add an edit and mention it?
• tunnuz 4y ago
  Do you have the mental support you need?
• jacksonkmarley 4y ago
  You mentioned "digital nomad influencers" a few times, were you trying to start businesses as a digital nomad, or was that just something you saw as a common feature of the "influencers" you paid attention to?
• risyachka 4y ago
  >> I tried everything - building an audience How many years have you spent every day doing it? If you haven't done it for multiple years with pushing content every single day - then this is not audience building and not worth even starting. >> making sure my product actually solved a problem If you are not sure if solves a problem - you never start building it. To create a startup (and make sure it solves a problem) you need a spreadsheet and stripe checkout page or landing page. If this is not enough - then your idea doesn't solve any real problem. Another criteria is if you show anyone a product that costs $100/month and clearly saves them $1000/month - everyone will give you $100 right on the spot. And if it doesn't clearly bring a ton of value - again, solving not a real problem. The reality is that many (especially engineers) love engineering way more than building startup (building startup involves literally zero engineering on founder part, except from a very very basic MPV) Also, indie hackers are not startup founders. They are mostly engineers trying to monetize their hobby. In this case you can do literally whatever for 5 years and you can get to 3-5k/month with it.
• yashg 4y ago
  Take care of yourself mate. Not everyone has to be an entrepreneur. I tried to be one for 10 years, couldn't make it work. Now I am happier and wealthier working for a good company enjoying my work and people around me. Go find meaningful employment, life doesn't have to be about hustling only.
• jll29 4y ago
  First, note that 9 out of 10 startups fail. I'm sorry you tried three times unsuccessfully - I'm sure you have learned a lot. Perhaps you would agree with me that the first attempt wasn't based on a lot of knowledge compared with the last; so maybe we discount that early one. Then trying for another 8 time would put you in a position where you can say "it doesn't work, I've done it all by the book". Now it is your right to stop. I would rather you stopped than have you get sick (again). But analysis your post suggests that you may potentially confuse "start up" and "indy developer", at least you use the terms rather interchangeably. That's not at all the same thing! For a startup, you need a team. An indy developer (freelancer) is a solo play, where you would be very unlikely to be impactful in comparison, even if you tried 30 times. Watching influencers is a waste of time. What I have observed is that people driven by their hunger for success more quickly burn out. You need to best pursue something that intrinsically passionate about, then you may never get tired. Anyone coding, writing a story or even sleeping uses their time better than watching influencers, IMHO.
• chiefalchemist 4y ago
  Before I jump in, I hope this opening up has helped you. You're not alone. You took the road less travelled. That isn't easy. God bless you. --- > "But it's not just the lack of success that's getting me down. It's also the constant stream of digital nomad influencers on Twitter who sell extremely distorted, rosy, and often times false dreams to indie entrepreneurs like myself. They make it seem like building a successful startup is easy and anyone can do it with the right mindset and a few key tips. But the reality is that it's not that simple. It's fucking hard and it takes more than just a positive attitude to make it." I know you said you're done. But for anyone else still looking, there's a market right there. Well, the opposite actually. That is, be a no BS social media "influencer." Tell it like it really is. Call out the snake oil sellers and the liars. Be honest. Be transparent. Share to help, not to deceive. Because: "I know I'm not alone in feeling this way."
• weard_beard 4y ago
  https://youtube.com/watch?v=l_F9jxsfGCw https://youtube.com/watch?v=l_F9jxsfGCw
• ixtli 4y ago
  I think it’s right to get out. Give yourself time and you will start to feel better. I’m hindsight you will see that this issue is with this “space” and not at all with you.
• kerng 4y ago
  Most will tell you that its about luck or perseverance, but reality it's about the network and people you know majority of the times. If you ever worked at FAANG or graduated from Ivy League, or have connected parents it's actually difficult to not get money from VCs - especially the last 2-3 years. Assuming that you have a reasonable sounding idea. Network and connections is highly undervalued. Once you have money, long term success becomes more likely also.
• deleted 4y ago
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• lbriner 4y ago
  I find it interesting that you have called out "digital nomad influencers". You make it sound like at some point you believed them, which I would say is an alarm bell for a potential business leader, except you have then run some businesses. Running a business is looking at what is happening and amplifying what works and fixing what doesn't. There is also an enormous amount of luck involved. I suspect if you look at all companies, most people running them will have most of the skills needed, most will have had some kind of luck/lead/timing that made things work and all of them will think they know how to do business because of survivorship bias. Even the most famous business leaders have had more companies fail than succeed but it is unbelieveably tiring unless you enjoy the journey, in which case, learn to stress less and keep working away.
• berniedurfee 4y ago
  Success is an addiction that many people long to suffer from. It’s just an illusion for all but a fraction of those try to roll the boulder up the hill. Comfort is what we should all learn to settle for. It’s really not that bad. Learn to be happy and fulfilled where you’re at. Life is short, enjoy it.
• SkipperCat 4y ago
  Hey, if its any consolation, your post made it to #1 on Hacker News for a while. I think that actually fits the definition of the word 'ironic'. Anyway, I feel for you. Having a dream and seeing it fail hurts. It may be painful in the present, but at least you know yourself. That is something many people never learn.
• peter_retief 4y ago
  Just do something for yourself, something that feels right and useful.
• FollowingTheDao 4y ago
  As someone else living with mental illness and :gave up" in 1999, I hear you. You did not give up, you were not defeated, you had a realization of your true nature. I hate the internet and all that comes with it, it has commoditized everything and turned everyone into a self promotor, an advertiser of the self. It's all a pyramid scheme, and the moment more people like us drop out the more quickly the pyramid collapses.
• vouaobrasil 4y ago
  In my opinion, thinking about success and failure is already the wrong path. I would say do things you find intrinsically worthwhile instead. For example, right now I'm developing an online course because I think it's fun to do. If no one signs up, then I'll do something else. If I do get students, I'll do something else anyway...in fact, I never even think about the word "failure". It's just something to do that enriches your life and move on from.
• dSebastien 4y ago
  Take care of yourself. Letting go and giving up is okay. Sometimes even the best/only option. I failed to recognize that for too long in 2019 and ended up victim of the sunk cost fallacy: https://www.dsebastien.net/2021-01-04-20-months-in-2k-hours-spent-and-200k-lost-a-story-about-resilience-and-the-sunk-cost-fallacy/ https://www.dsebastien.net/2021-01-04-20-months-in-2k-hours-... Now I prioritize my time, happiness and well-being way above MRR, success and whatever else ego related.
• deepGem 4y ago
  "and don't let the failures define you. There's always a chance for success, no matter how small it may seem." These small successes is what one needs, to propel them back into the entrepreneurship journey. I don't know about these influencers and not sure what they sell. You just have to get lucky. I have been through so many startup failures that I have stopped counting, but I attribute my failures to my own laziness and not being in the right market. So back to successes, what I found super helpful is a micro dosing of success like winning a point in a game of tennis, or getting 10 consecutive shots above the net , something like this, totally unrelated to the world of startups can bring in tremendous confidence and morale boost. Why I say tennis is because getting some of these shots right consistently involves some luck in the beginning. While you may not get all the 10 shots correct, that one lucky shot can bring in a high dose of morale boost. It could be shooting balls as well. I personally find that small successful acts like this, which involve your skill and some luck really help in overcoming failures, failures like what you state, which are truly a result of not just your effort but a lot of outside factors/luck. EDIT - Changed you to one. I didn't imply this message directly to OP, was more of a generic reply.
  • FollowingTheDao 4y ago
    > These small successes is what you need. To propel you back into the entrepreneurship journey. Jesus, leave the dude alone, will you? Didn't you read he was institutionalized? Your one of the influencers that make people's lives worse.
    • deepGem 4y ago
      My apologies. I didn't mean you to him, i meant it as a generic response to everyone. I will reword the reply to say one.
• Aulig 4y ago
  Sorry to hear that. Like others mentioned - the chances to succeed are very slim. I think 2 things are the root cause of failure for most businesses: - Running out of money - Running out of energy (founder burnout) Things like not finding product market fit etc. can all be categorized into these 2 points of failure. I find that helpful to take a step back when I'm feeling stressed and remember that worrying too much will just cause me to burn out, which is a bigger risk to the burnout than e.g. not fixing some bug or answering some email immediately.
• pc86 4y ago
  I'm reminded of that line in Silicon Valley where someone sarcastically says "oh, is it hard to build a billion dollar company?" Of course it's hard, and the entitlement here of "with an audience of 20 people, nobody signed up for my substack!" is astounding. The world isn't against you, the world just doesn't care about you. That's an extremely important distinction.
• bl4ckm0r3 4y ago
  the same dream that pushes you forward, can keep you down. I have felt (and still feel) in a similar way, my approach is to have an "healthy" relationship with my dreams and desires and don't let the lack of results, or just the disappointment of not finding the paradise island I was looking for, put me down. Good luck and don't give up.
• pettycashstash2 4y ago
  I'm sorry to hear about the struggles and setbacks you've experienced in your entrepreneurial journey. Building a successful startup can be a challenging and unpredictable process, and it's not uncommon for people to face setbacks and failures along the way. It's understandable that you may be feeling defeated and ready to give up, but I want to encourage you to consider taking a break and taking care of yourself before making any final decisions. Starting a business can be an all-consuming pursuit, and it's important to make sure you're taking care of your mental health and well-being. It's not uncommon for entrepreneurs to experience feelings of burnout, anxiety, and depression, and it's essential to prioritize your own self-care. This could mean seeking support from friends, family, or a mental health professional, taking breaks to rest and recharge, or finding ways to manage stress and maintain a healthy work-life balance. It's also important to remember that building a successful startup is a marathon, not a sprint. It can take time to find a product-market fit, build an audience, and gain traction. It's natural to have ups and downs and to face challenges along the way, but the key is to learn from your failures and keep moving forward. I understand that it may not be easy, but please don't give up on your entrepreneurial dreams just yet. Remember that you are not alone and there are resources and support available to help you through this difficult time. If you ever need to talk or just need someone to listen, don't hesitate to reach out.
• college_physics 4y ago
  This is not an era of entrepreneurs and there might never again be one that conforms to the stereotype. Its an era of industrialized cookiecutter startup generation, too much money chasing too few worthy ideas, overwhelming oligopoly power, permacrises that wake nobody up from the consumerist get-rich-quick stupor, an era of dwarf politicians, and supersized hypes, engineered manias and fomo and a dazed, confused and bitter body politic. Its an era of startups-as-a-service and right now we are probably entering the managing-startup-failure-as-a-service phase. We are, in part, complicit in this state of affairs, the way the cogs of a malfunctioning machine are both cause and victims of its unhappy unraveling.
• aizyuval 4y ago
  > I know I'm not alone in feeling this way. There are so many other indie entrepreneurs out there who are struggling and feeling like they'll never make it. If you're one of them, I want you to know that you're not alone. It's okay to feel defeated and to want to give up. But please don't give up. Keep pushing forward and don't let the failures define you. There's always a chance for success, no matter how small it may seem. It’s interesting how one can say something to others and do the exact opposite a second later. It seems like you’re ok with others doing the hard work, but not yourself. IMO its hard, but possible. If others could do it, so can I. I have learnt that by being consistent and working hard, things eventually work out someway.
• michael_daconta 4y ago
  Great post and I am sorry that you have suffered these failures. While I agree with you that the scam artist influencers share some of the blame, I think there is another culprit at work here: the mindset that it must be the "brass ring" or nothing! What about a simpler path of just being a good developer, working for a stable tech company and building a life around the good salary, good work and good people that an IT Career affords? Though I also had dreams of a hit product and failed at one such endeavor, it was as a side-gig, and I have become modestly successful in my career. Or maybe I should say "successful enough". I hope you can also find a path that is deeply satisfying. Best Wishes!
• Oras 4y ago
  > Keep pushing forward and don't let the failures define you. Next line > But for me, I can't take it anymore. How can you advice something you're not doing? I don't question you have worked really hard and pushed yourself to the limit, but I would look at the experience you've gained as a learning experience and seeing things from different perspective when you get a job. Now you will see in more clarity why decisions are made at work, and how hard it is to sell a product. Celebrate your learnings, your situation is the majority, very few startups will succeed.
• dinkumthinkum 4y ago
  I hope you find some peace. I don’t know what generation but if you are a zoomer, maybe this really is a shocking thing. Influencer culture is very alluring and I think for newer generations that didn’t have people explaining basic things about the world, it is very easy to believe social media influencers have discovered a new reality. Many of these influencers are what we used to call frauds and what they are selling is the appearance of a lifestyle, which they ultimately fulfill, many times, by influencers and not whatever method they are claiming. People that presented themselves as rich and sold get-rich-quick schemes, actually got rich selling courses. Not all “digital nomads” are exactly like this but many of these self-proclaimed nomads are really doing consulting work. The word “startup” is just a hip way of saying “new business” and they have all the same problems that businesses have had since time immemorial. Most businesses fail. If it was really this easy to get rich in a startup, everyone would do it; it’s not like everyone is just totally stuck in the Matrix, as far startups go. The typical advice is to learn from your failures. I don’t know you or your startup abs don’t want to presume too much but it seems like you spent too much time buying into social media hype. Many people fail several times before they are successful or just give up. A lot of startups are risks; several big startups were just people that looked at existing industries and laws around them and asked “what would happen if we just break all those laws and regulations?” like AirBnB, Uber, FTX, etc. Some times it works out and sone times it doesn’t. Maybe rather than looking at social media influencers, you should look at entrepreneurs that were successful in the past; not looking at vanity self-aggrandizing social media but look at biographies and post-mortems and try to understand real business.
• aurizon 4y ago
  You are not alone, Google and Meta are in that same desolate box. You say your startup filled a valid need? Usually items like that get at least a look. That look has to make the user take the next step = +feedback to proceed. If he/she likes it they promulgate it. Ever see the old hair shampoo commercial, I told my friend, and she told to friends, and they told......screen full of faces. The fact that you could not progress beyond ~~20 tells me that your App had no 'gain'. Your gunpowder is wet and you will have no explosions. As to why? this is down to function/feel. If you had instructions that offended people on social/religious/gender grounds - any one of those are killers. Condescension in phrasing - a killer. Apps need good ideas/coders/manual writers, often these are not embodied in one person. You write good code, but the manual is so badly written people toss it away and walk - same for a number of other aspects. A good app can need a team of several people, each filling a niche. So analyse your app(s) and see if you can isolate the flaws. It may have a fatal flaw that killed it, or it could be you trying to be a one man band and doing a bad job in one or more aspects. Now you look down on 'influencers' - AKA advertising or promotion. Their job is eyeballs, once you get eyeballs, you still need gain or traction among users that the influencer attracted to your App, or once the dancing stops, your users will trickle away..
• pickledvlad 4y ago
  Here's an unpopular opinion: (i tweeted this a long time ago) All the solopreneurs on #buildinpublic Twitter seem to be so successful and hard-working, but the reality is most of them are not making anything sustainable or good. It feels like this community leans toward a shady and awkward Q&A show about how to grow your new venture. This show is the main engine of growth for some shady "bUsInESs" models on #buildinpublic. It's now a hype train for everything: truth, lie, scam, happiness, sadness, etc. And everyone is trying to use it: Engage with broken founders, ask them about their opinion, tell them how good their ideas are, show off some fake numbers, feed them with productivity hacks, add more emojis , promote your "SaaS", and you'll "succeed". I feel sad comparing what's happening rn with the way it was in the beginning, N years ago. It went from "sharing my journey" to "growth hacking my shady scheme" on twtr.
• yonz 4y ago
  Wish you all the best as you focus on healing over the coming days. Do you have any counter-intuitive advice on how to build a following? I assume your startup is B2C.
• totalhack 4y ago
  It's not for everyone, and yes there is some luck involved. Some luck in terms of timing, some in terms of how good your network is. Some ideas just aren't that good too. I would say don't give up, at least on the general idea of entrepreneurship. If you have that drive, that is more of the equation than you think. Perhaps consider a more stable approach if your situation allows -- get another job and use moonlighting to see what ideas might take off. And keep in mind the saying: alone you go fast, together you go far.
• jerrygenser 4y ago
  Sounds like you've been going it alone. Have you tried teaming up with someone else? Many successful projects wouldn't be successful if they were done alone, having another person can help sanity check and motivate you.
• nutate 4y ago
  You’ll be ok. I’ve been institutionalized many times and I’ve never even tried to start a business. Take care of yourself and shield yourself from the liars who profit from your belief in their fabrications. Be well, health is a process and has nothing to do with monetary or business success, but is far more valuable.
• aliswe 4y ago
  You're an investor of time, so the following quote applies: The lesson for investors, Buffett says, is that you don't have to swing at every pitch. "The trick in investing is just to sit there and watch pitch after pitch go by and wait for the one right in your sweet spot. And if people are yelling, 'Swing, you bum!,' ignore them." https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.cnbc.com/amp/2017/02/02/warren-buffett-simplifies-investing-with-a-baseball-analogy.html https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.cnbc.com/amp/2017/02/02/war...
• ideamotor 4y ago
  When “digital nomad influencers” say it’s easy, they are mostly referring to selling the idea that it’s easy.
• icoder 4y ago
  Ah, you mean those influencers that make money through talking about how they make money? That only works for them as - not the most perfect analogy but it does the job - the top of the pyramid.
• ACV001 4y ago
  you should have associated yourself with other people rather than going solo all this time.
• deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
• jrvarela56 4y ago
  Thanks for sharing your story, I see where you're at and have had similar thoughts throughout my career. It definitely is not a fair game: I literally started my first company because I knew my parents wouldn't let me starve and I could just crash at their place for years before I 'made it'. ~13 years in, still haven't made it but I can make a living. Every time I talk to aspiring entrepreneurs I make sure to highlight all the crap you have to go through to counter the media doing a great job at highlighting the good stuff.
• koalala 4y ago
  Have you considered just duplicating an existing business in a still growing market and then hiring a PPC/seo marketing agency? You don't have to invent anything new perse, and you absolutely need professional marketing in most cases.
• ineedasername 4y ago
  This seems to be the toxic end result of “hustle porn”. The promise that you “Yes even you!” Can start the next unicorn, or even just bootstrap to ramen profitable & gain the attention of some VC money, maybe find a lucrative graceful exit if your runway runs out. It’s a subtle lie, because it directly or indirectly says “everyone could be…” when in reality it’s “anyone might be…” in the sense of “anyone might be the next lottery winner!” Anyone might, but not everyone can, and a significant amount of the outcome (sure, much more on the lottery) is determined by luck. Only with hustle porn the themes pervading it all, unlike the lottery, is that if you fail, it’s because you did something wrong. You didn’t work hard enough. You didn’t network in the right places, that fundamental something is wrong with you Most who have studied the progression of Christian religion throughout the history of colonizing the North American continent may recognize here the trappings of the Prosperity Gospel, itself a pernicious offshoot & watered down version of Predestination as found in some Protestant sects, that boils down to the belief that the unsuccessful, the sick, the poor, are all that way because it’s their own fault, because they have failed to achieve some vague notion of god’s grace. Predestination is a complex topic with multiple interpretations, but the strong Calvinist version basically says that god not only knows who is predestined to heaven and hell, but that we might see that destiny here on earth in the trappings of a person’s life. The successful and healthy must surely have god’s blessing while the sick and the poor are clearly among the damned. As you might imagine, theological explanations and biblical references supporting this are complex, but that’s the nutshell. You can see it’s roots in the concept of the American Dream among other attitudes that seem have been popular in the US— a sometimes, among some people, disdain for the poor who surely are there by some form of choice. That is hustle porn. Modern repackaging of and stitching together of bits & pieces of the worst pieces of theology found in early (and some recent) groups of protestants. (See Joel Osteen for recent incarnations)
  • JanisErdmanis 4y ago
    I have always been curious on the mindset christians have regarding sick and poor. Can you recommend any books which supports your take?
    • ineedasername 4y ago
• cmos 4y ago
  good. It's not a sustainable lifestyle. Imagine if you had employees and payroll to hit and sales are slumping and you are running low on cash and your investors are yelling at you, your customers are never happy... That's a lot harder of a situation to deal with. I dropped out of being an entrepreneur and normal life with a normal job is just a sweet sweet vacation. Bonus if you don't have to talk to the outside world and have good coworkers. You are a super human now.. be considerate of those who can't produce as much as you. The normal world moves slow. Turn up your patience dial and get home for soccer practice.
• gwbas1c 4y ago
  What did you learn? That's the most important question to ask yourself. I also tried running a startup that got nowhere. What I learned is that I like spending most of my time behind a computer, programming. Thus, I decided I was better off joining someone else's startup so I could spend all day programming. I'm a lot happier that way. Perhaps there's something in the process that you really enjoyed? Can you do just that piece in someone else's startup? Do you believe you'll be more successful working in a team when you're doing what you do best, and someone else is running the company? I think you can, and with some self reflection on what you were good at, I think you'll find a great direction for your future career.
• nla 4y ago
  I'm very sorry that you are having mental health issues as a result of your efforts, that sucks. But as someone who has been where you are, and has a couple of small exits, dude... you're trying to get into the NBA. It's really fucking hard.
• seraphsf 4y ago
  Silicon Valley trains entrepreneurs the way World War I trained infantry. The goal is NOT to make most succeed.
• logicalmonster 4y ago
  Just a comment for wakana. First, I feel for you, and would say hang in there. Most startups even from very successful people, don't work out. It's up to you, but you could pursue something as a hobby in the background of your life that won't drive you batty or present too much risk if it fails. If you pursue anything next time, do something focused on fun and cheap that you love and won't harm your mental health even if it doesn't work out. Now, onto my main comment that I think many people here will disagree with. Conventional wisdom in life is bullshit designed to make yourself look good: you only have to look at the dumb advice given to distraught men about pursuing relations to recognize that. To me, it sounds like you're trying to take the startup community's bullshit about how to grow your business way too literally. The good sounding advice that all of the bloggers out there give (stuff like writing high-quality content and contributing to the community) is all well and good and something you should strive towards, but you're a sucker if you think that this kind of advice is designed to do anything but make the writer of that piece seem like a noble individual. Yeah, maybe if you're Mark Cuban wealthy you can fund a big marketing campaign for your startup and do things entirely above-board and fund it until it wins out, but that's not 99% of us who are bootstrapping something. You know what smart business minded people do to grow their startup when they have 20 followers? They go out there and spend a few dollars to buy a bunch of fake followers to appear way more popular than they actually are. It's social proof and is designed to persuade people that you're legit. How did Reddit get their start? Wasn't it a bunch of fake bullshit accounts posting nonsense? How do all dating sites get started? They find pictures of hot people online and make a bunch of fake profiles. If you're pursuing your business entirely honestly, well you might win some points with the big guy upstairs, but it's not a path to business success unless you get insanely lucky. It sucks, but this is the way the world works.
  • moneywoes 4y ago
    Any other poignant examples? Like a review site like glassdoor would they fake reviews?
    • logicalmonster 4y ago
      I'm not going to make assumptions about websites I don't know about, and I'm sure some companies are completely honest. Maybe the company is honest, but many of the reviews are bullshit? But one good example of how important social proof is nightclubs keeping people lined up outside waiting even when they could easily fit everybody inside fairly quickly. Why do they intentionally provide a shitty, subpar experience for their customers? Social proof. They're trying to get people to wonder "Hey, why is everybody lined up outside of that club even though it's cold outside? Must be something great going on in there. I want to check it out."
• nprateem 4y ago
  I think programmers are often dismissive of business people. Most of us could probably do marketing or managerial jobs if we were interested since we're the ones who really build the product. How hard can the business side be right? People who are serious about business study MBAs for several years, because there's a lot to learn. You're not just going to learn it by reading some influencer blog posts. When you're preinvestment, the best skills for entrepreneurs aren't technical, they're strategic. If you can assess a business idea like an investor you'll stop wasting time on things that are hopeless prospects to begin with. You also won't need to listen to influencers. Steve Jobs said he was as proud of the things Apple didn't do as the things they did. They only took forward 20% of ideas IIRC, and probably canned a load of those too. I'm working on a rapid innovation pipeline. I want to be able to brainstorm ideas, filter out the strategically weak ones, run quick tests on more promising ones, dig deeper into the target market/problem/technology that enables the idea, and move quickly. I want to do as much as possible without writing a line of code. That's the only way to keep things fast and low cost so I can carry on working in my cushy job and do this on the side. If one takes off, I'll then decide to focus on it, but by then the business model will be well validated and I'll be more certain about the potential.
  • moneywoes 4y ago
    > strategic. If you can assess a business idea like an investor you'll stop wasting time on things that are hopeless prospects to begin with Can you define this?
    • nprateem 4y ago
      The main things are a huge (ideally uncontested) potential market and a sustainable competitive advantage (i.e. moat). This means it's VRINE - valuable, rare, inimitable (can't be copied), non-substitutable (nothing else will do), exploitable (people will pay for it). What is VRINE may be proprietary technology (ideally patented), key strategic partners (e.g. suppliers, distributors, collaborators), or perhaps brand if you're first to market. You also need the relevant resources and capabilities (i.e. skills) to be able to make it happen or attract people who can help you. You should be at the leading edge of a new trend before other people are aware of it so you can become the dominant product ("blue ocean") and become associated with the product category itself. However, this is easier said than done since innovation is often messy, with no clear end point, so agility and learning is key. Also, Apple were consistently second movers, in which case you need a clear differentiator (think Stripe focussing on ease of use, Apple on design, etc.). You may also want to research value chain reconfiguration. This explains how you can avoid competing head-on in established industries in ways the incumbents just can't respond to rapidly because it cuts against the core of their business model. The classic example is low cost airlines. These aren't hard and fast rules. But check out the Innovator's Dilemma to see why entrepreneurs will always be needed.
• hummel 4y ago
  Probably you forgot the most important part. Have rich parents.
• oldstrangers 4y ago
  It's pretty brutal. I offered a service essentially undercutting what I do for my day job by $15-$30k and its been nearly impossible to market that and convince anyone of the value. Despite it being exactly the same work companies already pay (me) for, lol. The effort required to attract new clients isn't something people that build want to spend time on. Its just a numbers game and ultimately entirely subjective. Build for fun, build for yourself. That's the only way it doesn't beat you down.
• Mark33 4y ago
  Maybe you should see it more as doing things other people need and want to pay you for instead as an more abstract entrepreneurship...
• noveltyaccount 4y ago
  At one point, about 15 years ago, I realized that if I dedicated myself to my career rather than dividing my attention with startup dabbling in the evenings and weekends, I'd probably be better off. At least for me, focus helped, I landed a job in big tech, and have done well. One thing at a time.
• bnert 4y ago
  To the OP (if you read this), I appreciate your candor, and you're not alone. Heal well. Heal with your family and loved ones. Lean into them. I sincerely hope you move onto greener pastures.
• deleted 4y ago
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• MaGra 4y ago
  Sorry the three times "at bat" doing startups was such an arduous journey, and more sorry your mental health suffered so greatly. Influencers, mentors, coaches and the ilk are usually all just selling unreal outcomes in a package they try to show as something only they know, "the secrets". I've been fortunate in building things over the years, some small success and some failure and one massive failure. It is hard. Mental health, mindset and balance is so very important. My 02 worth, and you'll likely want change back. Find some early stage startup founders in your town (or online, I guess). If you can afford to take the time to do this. Buy them coffee & ask them if you can work on pure straight commission selling their product/service for 90 days. Maybe do it for a couple startups at the same time? Just a thought and wish you nothing but the best of luck in 2023 and beyond. Be well.
• renewedrebecca 4y ago
  I hope you're ok, and I hope you find peace. More importantly, I hope you take to heart that so much in life really is luck of the draw. Even people who have everything together still fail. I know it may sound silly but the Picard quote is still true. You can do everything right and still lose. It's not a weakness, it's life.
• g051051 4y ago
  > It's also the constant stream of digital nomad influencers on Twitter who sell extremely distorted, rosy, and often times false dreams to indie entrepreneurs like myself. Good lord, why on earth would you pay any attention to these people? I can barely type "digital nomad influencer" without laughing. Have you never heard of survivorship bias?
• bulbosaur123 4y ago
  What's your startup?
• Hendrikto 4y ago
  TL;DR > constant stream of digital nomad influencers on Twitter who sell extremely distorted, rosy, and often times false dreams to indie entrepreneurs like myself. They make it seem like building a successful startup is easy and anyone can do it with the right mindset and a few key tips. But the reality is that it's not that simple. It's fucking hard and it takes more than just a positive attitude to make it.
• adamsmith143 4y ago
  Sounds like you ignored Product Market Fit and were building solutions in search of problems.
• pkd 4y ago
  I don't know you, and I don't have startup advice to give. But take care of yourself. There are people in your life that will care about you outside of your success or failure with startups. Try something else for a while and forget that this echo chamber exists. Hope you are able to put this behind you.
• visox 4y ago
  Yeah been there, luckily enough i almost always had also a job so failure was always an option. Only projects that worked for me where of different nature which didnt require marketing to make money, one could say hacking side projects.
• gilbertmpanga12 4y ago
  [dead]
• bulbosaur123 4y ago
  Also, aren't stats something like 1 in 10 startups succeeds? Or one in 100? So you have a long way to go.
• lo_zamoyski 4y ago
  "Human History [...] is the long terrible story of man trying to find something other than God which will make him happy." --C. S. Lewis
  • kirse 4y ago
    If viewed in the narrow interpretation that you're presenting it, then sure, trying and failing at startups is "something other than God". Maybe that is his frustration. But if building a startup is simply part of the process of tested faith through challenges, being stripped of ulterior motives, servant leadership, creating something from nothing, bringing order & structure to chaos, enabling people to feed families, then it's quite on par with discovering who God is. Work itself is a divine activity given from the very beginning, certainly not meant to be our god but about as divinely predestined as one can get on the list of "things one can be doing". I mean shoot, one of the first tasks was to name things, what else is programming other than naming things?
• ryanp88 4y ago
  My advice, pivot to crypto. If you build anything, literally "anything" of actual substance, you can raise 7 figures easily in the next bull market. I've seen absolute dogsh*t nft projects and projects with barely working landing pages and no users raise millions. If you build an actual working product, then the incentives and grants on the layer 2 chains like Optimism and Arbitrum are there for the taking
  • dinkumthinkum 4y ago
    It sounds like sound advice to do a crypto pump and dump and get in early for the next rug pull. But I think you have to stress that to do this in a sound way you need to have a team of lawyers and a way to insulate yourself from prosecution, if only an exit strategy to a non-extraditing country. Yeah, this is a good plan.
• czbond 4y ago
  It's a hard game. This topic will fill up why all the failures were because of lack of privilege, and the successes are privilege and luck. Luck comes to the startup founder who takes the difficult and hard steps to starting a business and iterating on finding what works. Edit: the game is hard. Really hard. And it's not just luck, but some of it is. Luck without lots of hard work means nothing.
• ffiirree 4y ago
  I spent 8 years trying to be a professional musician, running my own music project. I gave up opportunities, travel, etc. for it. Lived with family a lot of those years to save money for the studio, and to work part time so I could write songs and make demos. I made some things I'm really proud of. But it didn't pick up, I didn't get signed, I made no money from it and lost many thousands of dollars from it, etc. By the end I was completely burned out, and saw I gave up most of my 20s for that. If I were to go back I wouldn't change anything. I gave it my best shot. But like OP here, I am burned out and need to just enjoy life now.
• jviotti 4y ago
  It is not defeat and you did not fail. Running a business is incredibly hard, and I think the entire HN audience would applaud you for even trying and give you our support.
• yawnr 4y ago
  Almost all of the successful “entrepreneurs” I know are just rich kids who had the time and space to figure things out over the course of 10-15 years after college without worrying about money. Same thing for all of the successful people I know who work in media. It’s a racket.
• rchaud 4y ago
  Digital nomads and internet hustlefluencers have definitely skewed the perception of what entrepreneurship is like. You mentioned Product Hunt, Indie Hackers (the website I'm guessing), Twitter, Substack.....these are all marketing channels, and marketing is a lot of work. But are you taking your message to the customer, or to other entrepreneurs on the same grind? In 2022 I started a paper magazine on a niche topic (URL is on my profile). I have a full time job, so I don't worry financially about how the magazine will do. I also definitely do not compare my thing to what someone else is making. I have around ~100 customers, probably acquired at a loss. I couldn't care less about the absolute numbers. For me, the minimum number I was trying to reach is 1. I've exceeded that and can talk to customers about what they'd like to see in the future. I wouldn't have been able to do that had I been focusing on acquiring thousands of subscribers first.
• mguerville 4y ago
  The influencers you see are the 1% who made it, and given luck plays a role it's indeed possible they made it "easily" and therefore candidly but erroneously preach that story. I've failed a half dozen times too, but only at side-hustles, and that discouraged me from going all in, but I've also been successful once (albeit very moderately) and that was with the least effort of all my attempts. So I think the lesson is to keep trying only if you value the journey as much as the intended destination, that way even if you don't reach the target you'll presumable still get some fulfillment from the journey (for me it was learning no-code tools, learning to produce professional quality print materials, etc.)
• gdilla 4y ago
  Another way to look at it - from here on out, you have the experience to start and maneuver from a better place. That's pretty valuable. All the hustling in the world won't fix a bad idea, a bad or non existent problem-solution. A lot of ideas just aren't viable businesses, no matter how good one or two people might think it is. On the other hand, you don't really know what can get traction unless you're willing to kill your ideas aggressively. Only big changes give you big changes in outcomes. Small tweaks to an idea get you small change in outcomes - in the early going. Sure at scale, a button change can be a million dollar benefit but not when you're seeking out the "does anyone give a shit and will they pay for it stage"?
• HEmanZ 4y ago
  It sounds to me like your expectations are way out of whack. I’ve seen friends, acquaintances, and colleagues become entrepreneurs. Without an exception, every one that has a serious social media presence is a fraud. They have a company that is either money losing or fed by their parents. They pretend to be entrepreneur geniuses on social media but really have done nothing but basically be instagram models. The people I know who have successfully started companies are nothing like this. They usually have industry experience directly involved with or at least closely related to what they start (e.g “my company has to do this ourselves every time but we’d definitely hire it out if we could”). My advice would be stick to climbing in whatever industry you think you’ll enjoy most and just keep your eyes open. Worst case scenario you’ll have a good career
  • trollerator23 4y ago
    Excellent advice
  • icedchai 4y ago
    Also one needs to keep in mind that many startup "successes" are actually either negative or neutral outcomes. I know several "acquisitions" where the end result was investors making negative returns (receiving back pennies-on-the-dollar, if anything.) Meanwhile, the former CEO gets a cushy job as an advisor at the new place, announcements all over social media, etc. The actual companies barely had any revenue.
    • aledalgrande 4y ago
      Yep so called firesales. One of the companies I worked at sold so low all employees options were worthless. But they were in the news and they had been on Deloitte’s fastest growing startups for a few years (never reached profit).
    • gdog21 4y ago
      This was the case with Rancher being acquired by SUSE. The financials were so out of whack for a normal acquisition but SUSE had a dire need to acquire a k8s company and Rancher wanted to exit and now the board has huge regrets over spending so much on something thats brought so little value to the business!
• sudo_navendu 4y ago
  Looking back at my career, there have always been points where I felt I hit rock bottom and anything I did wasn't helping. When I quit my job to start a new career in software engineering, I hoped to find a job after a couple of months of preparation. Even after 8 months and close to 200 applications, I still couldn't find a job. I felt like I made the wrong decision by quitting my previous job and whether I actually had any skills to work in tech. I almost decided to stop and take a different job when I received a life-changing opportunity as a software engineer. The good thing about hitting rock bottom is that the only place you have left to go is high. It will be hard, but slow progress will surely help you reach your goal. If things aren't working out as you expected, it might be time to switch your goals and try something different. Anyway, this is undoubtedly not the end. You were clearly determined to pursue what you wanted, but maybe it wasn't aligned. I genuinely wish you all the best for your future, and I hope to see you reach your goals.
• c16 4y ago
  Irrespective of what you think of Levels, he's shown me that it's a case of keep trying. He has 215k followers, has tried 70 different things, and only done well with 4 of them [1]. I'm in the same boat - I've tried many things, and most have failed. I currently have a side project with 1k users making no money, and I'm going to try monetise it - but I expect it to most likely fail. And I'm okay with it. There's joy in being creative, making, growing, marketing, trying, learning. I can't remember where I read it, but once a founder makes their money, they often get lost in life. The common advice is then: "now do it again but this time enjoy the journey". > They make it seem like building a successful startup is easy [...] [but] It's fucking hard and it takes more than just a positive attitude to make it. Welcome to startups! Another great quote I read was "Bam! Overnight success story! It only took 7.5 years" [2]. [1] https://twitter.com/levelsio/status/1457315274466594817 https://twitter.com/levelsio/status/1457315274466594817 [2] https://siliconvict.com/articles/5-lessons-starting-a-500m-a-5m-company-in-5-years https://siliconvict.com/articles/5-lessons-starting-a-500m-a...
  • verse 4y ago
    KEEP GOING.
  • fastball 4y ago
    You can bump that up with avatarai.me and interiorai.com added to the list[1] [1] https://twitter.com/levelsio/status/1605391667959316481 https://twitter.com/levelsio/status/1605391667959316481
• PhiLambda 4y ago
  As a business owner myself I understand how hard it can be first hand. But if there’s one thing I can tell you is that very rarely is someone’s startup successful the first or even first couple times they try. If that was the case everyone would have a business. It’s all about learning from the mistakes and reasons your business/idea failed. My father has been an entrepreneur his whole life and he had a couple successful businesses throughout his career but his first truly successful business wasn’t until his 6 or 7th business (I lost count on how many he has made) over the course of 20 years. In order to be a successful entrepreneur you have to accept failure and even be ok with failing if it means you are learning something and use it as a tool to improve your future businesses. A quick note about digital influencers, learning from mentors and people who have done what you want to do is very important you just want to make sure they have actually accomplished what they say and walk the talk they are speaking. Lastly, sure it is not for everyone but if you are truly passionate about being an entrepreneur than all I can say is don’t give up and keep trying, all it takes is one success.
• hpcjoe 4y ago
  What I'd learned from almost 15 years running a "startup" hitting multi-million revenue years for the last 6 of the life of the company, is that there is a preternatural bias against you (not personally, but your small company) for business and academic customers. For individuals, I'd imagine its worse. This bias makes it very hard to achieve escape velocity, never mind low earth orbit. Even when you show multiple million dollar revenues and good margins, investors will demand more before they commit. Customers will demand you jump through more hoops. And will seek to impose fairly crazy T&C on you. All while you have a team you are trying to care for, a business you are trying to grow. It f***g sucks. It is as bad for your mental health as STEM graduate school. I'm 5 years out of my business, which was shot in the head behind the barn by our bank. I am still not fully recovered from that experience. The comments in this thread about success is really luck in disguise? Yeah, they are spot on. Vanishingly few entrepreneurs really force their way to success. Most are there at the right time and place, with a product that does 80% of what the customer needs. And the customer need is the driving factor. Note that the same is true of VCs. Who are, as a collection, mostly dumb money. There are a minute fraction who have any real value. The point of all of this is, no one has your back but you. So take care of yourself. If something isn't working and you feel yourself slipping down a slope, get out. Your health, mental and physical, is simply not worth it.
• xwdv 4y ago
  The world is against you. People really don't like to accept the reality that most businesses and startups will fail, they like to think they will be the exception because they are willing to work hard. It's not enough to just work hard. You have to be lucky, and the smarter and more ruthless you are the luckier you will tend to be. What you have described is pretty much what you should expect to happen for the vast majority of startups. No one cars about you in any sustainable, repeatable way. There's always something new and more important coming up. Fuck startups. You want money? Just work in tech. Get a remote job, maybe two. You'll make more money than you will by trying to juggle the million different responsibilities you'll have bootstrapping a startup, half of which you probably don't really even care about doing. And you will end up working less and living, truly living, more. You want fame and to touch the lives of millions? Just be some kind of influencer, that's all people really follow these days. Make content. You want to change the world? Forget about it, the world will change with or without you. Trying to change the world the way you think it should be is just a thinly veiled lust for power. A selfish goal. If you still want to have your own business, first figure out the existing businesses in the industry and find where you can close a gap to add value. This is going to take real insight, and skill, not some tweets or votes on "Product Hunt". You will have to work in the industry. Don't bother with the shiny world of mass consumer tech, it's garbage. A digital version of selling C.R.A.P. on Amazon FBA. Better to find something where you can sell a very expensive product or service to businesses that most people don't even know about. Example: We offer services where we audit tech code bases for clients who are acquiring tech companies. You've never heard of us, we sound boring (audits?!), and if we posted our business on Product Hunt no one would give a fuck. And yet we gross nearly $1.2 million a year in fees doing this, and it's not even our full time jobs. We beat out the shitty little failed startups with good graphics and social media footprints and enthusiastic CEOs. Yet the only thing people will find interesting about us is that we make some money. So just give up, startups don't work if you force it. The more you have to try the more likely you will have to fail so you can get your life back.
• cf141q5325 4y ago
  As dumb as it sounds, good for you. There is this great podcast with Annie Duke about how quitting is a difficult skill and how easily we get trapped chained to not functioning approaches due to not looking at it rationally. Maybe the analogy of all the corpses on Mount Everest who ignored the turnaround time will make you feel a bit better about your decision. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7jMLqcfX9dU https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7jMLqcfX9dU edit: For anyone not listening to it, the practical take away is the importance of setting kill criteria (to recognize something isnt working) upfront to combat cognitive biases and your emotions in the moment.
• james2doyle 4y ago
  I had my own company for a while. We were doing pretty well given my founder and I were in our 20s, it was our first company, and neither of us worked anywhere else before. We started it right out of college. We ended up having half a dozen employees and a nice office in the downtown of our city. We worked on some cool projects and had a good reputation. But the stress was insane. Being that young and not having the experience or support around us was incredibly difficult. Having the thought in the back of your mind each month that you might have to let an employee go, lose a project/employee, or have a client bail on you, was overwhelming. I ended up quitting after about 3 years. I now work for other companies and let them worry about all these things. I am much happier now and my work is much better. I also have a better work/life balance. Consider the "having my own company" phase over if you feel that way. It isn't for everyone. A lot of society applauds entrepreneurs and glorifies them. Makes it seem like it's a great option for everyone and if you aren't running some company you must be a loser in the cog of the machine... That is not the case. I actually make more money now than I did running my own company. I used to say I had more freedom but given I work from home now too, it is actually almost the same. I take more vacations now too. I couldn't afford to be away for a week when I had my own business. I know once you pass a certain point you work "on the business, not in the business" but that is, like others have mentioned, the minority of companies that actually get that far and succeed.
• gabereiser 4y ago
  This may seem a bit off base but have you tried marketing? Sounds like it's an area that may be a weakness for you. Have you looked at partnering or hiring a PR/marketing firm to do some of that for you? The old saying is "Work Smart, Not Hard". It sounds like you were working harder and harder to try to make it happen without looking at whether those efforts are actually being successful. You can tweet and engage and support the community but unless you're marketing a product or executing a plan, you're just working hard, not smart. Luck has a lot to do with it. Being at the right place, at the right time, with the right product. Network has to do with it as well. Who you know can get you farther than what you know. Finally, marketing, are you selling a service? a product? How are you attracting new users? What's your growth? Conversion rate? etc. Building something is just one part of the jigsaw. Making people aware you built something is the other. Convincing them it's a good thing, well, that's sales.
• andreyazimov 4y ago
  can you please share links to your projects?
• poorbutdebtfree 4y ago
  I don't know what an indie entrepreneur is but this startup scam really look off in 2011 when Eric Reis released the book Lean Startup. Within 4 months there were already Lean Startup Consultants on LinkedIn. Within 8 months people like Ash Maurya were releasing hardcovers on product market fit when all he had ever done was sell a rails app for 4 figures. The scene has obviously evolved since then but just as goldrushy as ever. At least we got uber and airbnb out of it.
  • glangenderfer 4y ago
    sir, not everything is a scam or a conspiracy. There have been hucksters since the beginning of time. If you're the type of person who can't stand working in an authoritarian environment as an employee, starting your own business is worth it.
  • danielbraun 4y ago
    I always knew there was something fishy about Eric Reis. An academia person who's never started a business all of a sudden is a business guru. The entire "startup" industry is basically an MLM scheme perpetuated by VC firms. The same goes for the "Indie" industry - a scheme initiated by Tim Ferriss, Eric Reis, IndieHackers, etc. I'm getting completely red-pilled over here. Fascinating thread
• jcoletti 4y ago
  Maybe your journey was meant to include some type of cold turkey exit from entrepreneurship to force you to step back, reevaluate things, rebuild mental health, etc., and maybe it's all temporary and you'll be back, better and stronger. Or maybe it'll give you the chance to find something else more fulfilling. Wishing you the best of luck either way.
• rapind 4y ago
  > It's also the constant stream of digital nomad influencers on Twitter who sell extremely distorted, rosy, and often times false dreams to indie entrepreneurs like myself. They make it seem like building a successful startup is easy and anyone can do it with the right mindset and a few key tips. This is just startup porn. It’s the same in any category (make money flipping houses!, crypto!, etc.) As a rule of thumb, assume 99% of influencers are full of shit. Stay off instagram. Running a business is definitely hard. I don’t think it’s for everyone. You need to handle failure, long hours, lack of balance, and disappointment in a sort of irrational way. Kind of like a fanaticism / religion of self. Ultimately it’s probably not healthy! I don’t recommend persevering due to FOMO. See if working for others scratches the itch so you have something to compare it to.
  • moooo99 4y ago
    > This is just startup porn. It’s the same in any category (make money flipping houses!, crypto!, etc.) As a rule of thumb, assume 99% of influencers are full of shit. Stay off instagram. This 100x! Many of the big influencers in these indie/startup/productivity niches seem to earn a lot of money at first sight. If you look deeper, a lot of these influencer seem to be making a lot of money from courses they are selling instead of operating the business they sell courses about.
    • tiffanyh 4y ago
      Would you mind naming who specifically you would put into that group? E.g. Would you put Pieter Levels into that category?
    • KETpXDDzR 4y ago
      My all time favorite is Robert T. Kiyosaki's book "Poor dad, rich dad". Pretty much everything he teaches about financial success is fiction. In reality he worked a regular 9 to 5 job, failed at starting his own business, and finally made money by selling this book and providing seminars.
      • rchaud 4y ago
• ericmcer 4y ago
  Take a break, also you are on the front page of HN with this post, maybe add some links to your three failed products and you can get some traction, or at worst some advice.
• munbun 4y ago
  Please understand that rock bottom is temporary. Entrepreneurship is a story of perseverance being extended long enough to meet luck. Take time to recover and plan. Then get up try again.
• freediver 4y ago
  I could probably copy OPs thoughts, to describe trying to learn to play the guitar. Comparing to entrepreneurship, which feels natural and is something I am reasonably good at, I just could never manage to get past the very minimal abilty to play the guitar. For the past several years I took private lessons, watched YouTube videos, practised and still I sucked. The fact that I enjoy doing it and am ready to invest time into it still didn't help. Same can be said for my chess skills. Chess is probably the game I play the most and have probably put thousands of hours into it. Still, my elo rating is around 1,500 and has been stuck there for years. One would imagine that I would get better at it with so much time and energy invested, but not. It feels like it was not meant to be. And the reason it does in both these cases is that there are other things I enjoy more, like being an entrepreneur and being a dad. One can't do everything, and natural affinity and other circumstances will lead everyone down different paths.
  • deleted 4y ago
    [deleted]
  • mijustin 4y ago
    I don’t think “learning to play the guitar” and “becoming a successful entrepreneur” are equivalent. Statistically, entrepreneurship has a high failure rate because it’s incredibly demanding, and the path to success isn’t linear.
    • freediver 4y ago
      Interestingly in mind they are. I believe that becoming a successful guitar player is just as hard as becoming a successful entrepreneur, swimmer or a chess player. Does it appear to be that the number of successful people in the world in each of these 4 is roughly the same?
• birdyrooster 4y ago
  Most people flaunting their startups and stuff are rich and using this firstly to manage their tax liability, making it big doesn’t matter because they already made it. You should be more established before trying again. Stop trying to make your come-up with a startup it’s cringe af.
• vikp 4y ago
  Don't start a business unless it's a pain point you are personally invested in. Lifestyle-wise, it's a grind with mental health challenges along the way, as you pointed out. Salary-wise, it's unlikely that your own business will ever match a regular developer job. It took me 4 years of bootstrapping before I had a decent baseline salary, and it's still lower than my ML engineer salary 10 years ago. I don't get the current culture of starting a business for the sake of starting a business. The lifestyle can be great after a few years when everything is running smoothly. But the marketing ignores the fact that it takes multiple years of grinding to get there, with no guarantees. Specific to your situation, it sounds like you were reaching the wrong audience. You need to reach the audience interested in your product, not an audience of other entrepreneurs. This takes a lot of time and energy. Marketing needs to be more than 50% of your effort these days. Content marketing on social, blogs, and Youtube tends to do well, but takes a couple of years to ramp up. Thanks for sharing, and I'm glad you made the right decision for you. Mental health is the most important asset you have - you're wise to protect it.
• fdhfdjkfhdkj 4y ago
  [dead]
• jglmn 4y ago
  Truth is, trying hard is a necessary, not sufficient, condition to make it. So many products are good in theory, but derivative. Built with the express aim of becoming a startup zillionaire. This does not work. So called "rich kids" don't win because they have some kind of magic "safety net" (there are tons of rich kids who bounce around those safety nets their entire lives with nothing to show for it). No, startup founders from every class, color and creed win because getting or growing wealth and status has very little to do with their reasons for founding. In other words, they don't set out to "become a founder/entrepreneur". They set out to create something the world really truly needs. Something they couldn't find anywhere else. Sounds like you started with a certain end in mind – become a founder. In a perverse way, this ruled you out from the get go. Your compass was calibrated to false north. I'm saddened to hear about your struggles, and support your choice to devote time to healing. However, if/when you do decide to jump back in the game, I hope you bear this advice in mind.
• botswana99 4y ago
  I am so sorry you feel bad. Want some advice from an older engineer turned entrepreneur? Be proud of what you have done. Not many people take risks in life. You did. Being the 'man in the arena' is enough. I read this quote from Teddy Roosevelt often: "It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood; who strives valiantly; who errs, who comes short again and again, because there is no effort without error and shortcoming; but who does actually strive to do the deeds; who knows great enthusiasms, the great devotions; who spends himself in a worthy cause; who at the best knows in the end the triumph of high achievement, and who at the worst, if he fails, at least fails while daring greatly, so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who neither know victory nor defeat."
  • Shocka1 4y ago
    I've had this quote bookmarked for 7 years now.
  • johnohara 4y ago
    To yours I add this from Teddy Roosevelt: "Do what you can, with what you have, where you are."
  • mitjam 4y ago
    "It is hard to fail, but it is worse to never have tried to succeed." - Theodore Roosevelt
  • tayolo12345 4y ago
    Thank you for this, this lifted me up. I'm going through something similar to the OP, I haven't given up yet and don't really consider it either. But, it's really hard. My mental health certainly took a hit and I'm full of anxiety as my savings are not enough to cover the upcoming bills and couldn't find a contracting gig so far to support the cashflow. I've experienced severe panic attacks and bouts of depression. I sometimes dread the passing of days. Hope I'll find a way. It might be illogical to say this but I know we'll make it one way or another. I believe in what we are doing and what we built actually resonated with the customers as well. Just need to power through this last mile somehow. Anyway, reading your comment gave me a little more strength. Much appreciated.
• pupperino 4y ago
  One thing that stood out for me is how much emphasis you put on having an online presence in a certain community as a driver of your business. I have next to zero information on how you actually spent your time, but it seems much of it was on chasing the social clout, hoping it would give you momentum. Online presence and social clout are not goals, they're side effects of successful directed effort - but of course you can also build a low-agency audience with startup porn. In the long run, there aren't hacks in this business. You really do have to identify a real demand which meeting is both technically feasible and economically viable given the current interest curve and technological frontier. Making sure your product actually solves a problem and getting paid customers is non-negotiable, not something you can just try and see if it works. You make it sound like you put these requirements in the same relevance bracket as building an audience or getting noted on product hunt. Anyway, hope you go through this moment in your life with lessons learned and experience you can put to good use wherever you see fit.
• firatsarlar 4y ago
  A-->B
• codyb 4y ago
  I think it's wonderful you tried. Three times! Wow! Most people don't even try once. Sorry things didn't blow up the way you hoped, but I doubt you'll ever regret the fact you gave it a go. Hope you feel better soon. Good luck with everything.
• glonq 4y ago
  I deliberately avoid startup porn and hustle porn. Otherwise, my impostor syndrome would get 100% worse. I would feel that my salary is terrible, my skills are dull, and I'm lazy. Some days, even just scanning the headlines here on Hacker News makes me tense... But generaly, I'm happy with me.
• andreygrehov 4y ago
  Feel free to reach out in person. I'm happy to provide an honest feedback about what you have built.
• chayesfss 4y ago
  Don't give up! Pivot and find the niche your product can fit! All kinds of amazing app/product add-ons that NEED to be made. I recommend focusing your efforts on whatever app is 'best' in the same category as your attempts and then trying those apps out and trying to figure out what YOU would pay for, then just pivot your attempts to that and try some google/linkedin marketing. I'll be happy to share, just PM me for my linkedin profile and I'll be happy to maybe share some of my lowly point of view friend. DO NOT GIVE UP!!!
• jeporter 4y ago
  Good job for trying. What are you giving up on, ever selling something? Ever building something. The communal urgency and necessity around the terms "startup" and "entrepreneur" shouldn't be framed like this. How "hard" any action is and whether it is good to do and if it produces positive outcomes is knowable but only after completion and iteration. People will say if your 0/3 you might get to 1/10 or 1/100. People don't pay for ideas, provide a solution, a benefit, make your life objectively better and analyze that. Most of us are disappointed if we don't have a large monetary outcome, however if you did have that you would just think about money less. Find success in any small thing, keep building, get your morning sun.
• duttaoindril 4y ago
  I haven't given up. I'm still trying. If anybody wants to try with me - I'm looking for co-founders - please contact me: @duttaoindril, duttaoindril@gmail.com
• jasfi 4y ago
  For a SaaS to help founders I had over 200 wait-list sign-ups. I think only one tried the MVP and that was about it. I put significant time and effort into building it. Marketing is incredibly difficult. Possibly why Paul Graham says there needs to be at least 2 co-founders.
• danielbraun 4y ago
  Related: https://www.indiehackers.com/post/why-i-hate-the-indie-hackers-community-on-twitter-f4d12cf1c1 https://www.indiehackers.com/post/why-i-hate-the-indie-hacke...
• nunorbatista 4y ago
  I honestly feel for you and understand how frustrated you must be feeling. I also think you put too much pressure on yourself and that you went after a lifestyle instead of working on a product that solves a problem and with that achieve your goals. Two things that come to my mind: - The majority of the startups operate in new/unproven markets. Three startups is far from being a lot in this scenario. Ask how many failed startups the best entrepreneurs have worked on and on some cases you'll see 30+. - If you don't have access to venture capital, it's wise to work on your startup as a side gig and see how it goes from there. You would have much likely had more runaway ($$$) and be confronted with other business opportunities that would result in other (sometimes better) ideas. The last point I want to add is related with the type of startups I see being founded. I view the Product Hunt feed on my Telegram and if I do a scroll over the next month or so, +80% are startups about tools for other entrepreneurs or slight variations of already existing companies (with the majority being note taking apps). I'm really not feeling a lot of innovation there. PS - I run a side-gig Cybersecurity newsletter (cyb3rsecurity.tips) with decent results and the traction is definitely there while having 0 followers on Twitter.
• nprateem 4y ago
  If you haven't already, you could reflect on your 'failures' to see what you can learn from them. You may identify areas you want to develop in yourself, spot something you could tweak in your products, or just clarify your career aspirations.
• jacktribe 4y ago
  You may feel differently in a couple of years, and if you do, consider a business with tangible goods or in-person services, where you see immediate results. It's unlikely it will have the growth of a tech startup, but you will get some satisfaction with every product/service you deliver. I've been bouncing between writing code and work-with-your-hands type startups for 16 years and it has kept me (arguably) sane.
• yccheok 4y ago
  Spending time on social media platforms like Twitter, ProductHunt, and IndieHacker can often have negative effects on mental health, as seeing others' successes and high earnings can cause feelings of toxic jealousy and comparison. To improve mental health, it may be beneficial for the author to reduce their time on these platforms and focus on practical tasks such as talking to customers, finding new customers, and developing their product. These actions can lead to a more fulfilling and balanced life. If the author feels that quitting these social media platforms entirely is the best decision for their mental health, that is a valid choice. Alternatively, the author may find it more mentally healthy to transition from being a solo entrepreneur to an employee with a stable monthly paycheck. Ultimately, the goal is to find a path that leads to greater happiness and well-being.
• marcossponton 4y ago
  I feel you. I wish you all the best. The Hard Thing About Hard Things is the only book I've read that shares a real vision on how hard is to try it.
• lallysingh 4y ago
  You should give up. Influencers are total bullshit and should not be followed, because they're only leading you to themselves. Give that up. Figure out what you want and use your mind to go get it.
• albanx123 4y ago
  I failed different time, it is not about giving up, it is about just trying. If you have passion and time you can try again. You can take time off, work in 9-5 job, and after try again. many twitter indee "startupers" are just fakers, or hyperbooled. I invested lot of time my time, working late nights, and still failed, I sold some software, made some money for a period of time, then died, and that is fine. I kept working in 9-5 job as I do today, and still trying new stuff. Keep trying and do not mind. It is super hard to succeed and it is not like easy like the twitter bulls claim. I have seen friend succeed but literally not having a life. Getting the right idea in the right moment sometimes is just luck. Not 99% but 99.9999% percent of influencers are full of shit, I can guarantee you that a real startuper does not have 1 minute free to piss, meanwhile the successful "influencers" stay 10 hours on social praising about their achievements.
• wirewalker 4y ago
  I'm going to say something to you that you might not have thought of. Perhaps the meaning of what you went through, the enormous success you have achieved, is this post. Because it is important! This post is one of the best "products" I have ever seen "shipped". You've "Dented the Universe" as Steve Jobs liked to say. Please know that all you went through had meaning, purpose. You just didn't recognize your final pivot was going to take this form. You didn't see it coming that it would be so successful. But it's incredible! Someday I hope to achieve the great success I'm witnessing right before my very eyes. You're an icon!
• gotrythis 4y ago
  After building a few startups and working at a few, I spent a lot of years advising people who wanted to start a startup, and 99% of the time I told them not to waste their time and money. They massively underestimate how hard and expensive it will be, how many skills are needed... and how much LUCK has to do with it. With my million dollar startup, it was years of research and stupidly hard work, and I had a tech and marketing background to build off of... and I had the luck of meeting the assistant to an Internet marketing "guru" in a bar and giving them a ride home. That assistant got the marketer to promote my product, which got others to promote. Without that bit of luck, it wouldn't have been nearly as successful. In truth, I probably would have gone bankrupt. Another example... the year that YC startup school accidentally let everyone in, they had a speaker who was talking about what market fit looks like. They failed over and over again, building stuff nobody cared about. They had wasted nearly $500k of investment and were down to the last few dollars, and one of the founders had an idea. The guy speaking implemented it just to prove his cofounder wrong! That idea went viral and they grew into a unicorn. In my opinion the talk wasn't about market fit. It was a cautionary tale about how lucky you need to get. Last I checked, I read that 82% of venture funded startups fail, even with all that money, talent, and connections. We rarely hear about them. We hear about the success stories, which expound upon the hard work and great idea and seem to overlook how much luck was a factor - and it always is a giant factor. Having said that, I do think success can be engineered for some startups, if you have the time, money, patience, and constitution to go through lots of small quick failures to find that market fit, and then build your product with the support of a community. And, I think luck can be engineered for some people, like by going to conferences, being nice and providing value... and by befriending the assistants of influential people.
  • ahaferburg 4y ago
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_6pl5GG8RQ4 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_6pl5GG8RQ4 This one?
• glyphy177 4y ago
  [dead]
• FollowingTheDao 4y ago
  I am done as well. Reading the comments here and being downvoted for saying things that are true, the internet is just the worst and social media (yes, HN is social media) is just a bunch of bullies and mob censorship. I love that wakana's post has this many comments, and it is because it strikes a nerve of truth here at HN. That you all are suckers or just want to be the next authoritarian boss with a yacht. So long suckers.
• Saulivar 4y ago
  Been in your shoes, man. But according to smartest marketers (like Garry Halbert), we programmers are doing it backwards. Because when all you have is a hammer (or programming skills), then everything looks like a nail. According to Gary Halbert, you first have to find a starving market. And there are three things people are starving for -- health, wealth and relationships. It's what they crave. It's what keeps them up at night. Notice, I did not say that they are starving for software of any kind. Unless this software helps them make money. For example, there's some software that generates $750/month per month per user. It's called Overflow. Why? because it generates more revenue for each of those clients. CBSplit is another one. It helps generate wealth to it's clients. Health supplements market is exploding. Golf buyers are so passionate, they'll spend thousands just to get an edge. So in short -- we programmers suck as marketers. And until we unsuck ourselves, we will feel like giving up. Now I'm going to give you the legends you can learn from - Gary Halbert, Gary Bencivenga, Michael Masterson, Dan Kennedy. They wrote books they've learned from even bigger masters. The sad fact is - your software or your product doesn't matter. Only your marketing does.
• scoofy 4y ago
  Listen to Nassim Taleb on success. If you want maximize your chance at success, you need to do something non-scalable. The number of successful barbers is astounding, the number of successful tech startup founders is vanishing, and half of the founders have given away much of their equity before even making money. Focus on your mental health. Life is hard. Treat the people you care about well because they're really what you have in life.
  • lcedp 4y ago
    > If you want maximize your chance at success, you need to do something non-scalable. What is the meaning of 'scalable' here? Popular/widely-known?
    • scoofy 4y ago
      It means you can only sell the product on a case-by-case basis, and it does not scale. Author: scalable. One book can be sold to 1 person or 1,000,000 with little extra work. Barber: non-scalable. One haircut can be sold to 1 person, but not 2 people without doubling the amount of work.
• aprdm 4y ago
  Don't trust social media. VC funded startups in general are a scheme to get the rich investors richer, the people who actually work on the start up (including founders) are very rarely going to do better than a person who worked as SWE in a big tech company for the same amount of years..
• pie6k 4y ago
  We always only hear success stories. Its simply because no one writes or likes 'normal failure stories'. Once in a while we have such a beautiful story that goes viral, but for 99% of normal stories of 'it just failed' never see the light of the day. I believe I found my success (screen.studio), but first I had to give up on it to start having a healthy relationship with my career. Only then I was able to look at myself being proud, even while seeing everyone tweet (remember, only successful people tweet - thus 'everyone' is a bit biased) about their success. Good luck!
  • makomatic 4y ago
    Yes, I have written to Courtland Allen of indiehackers.com a number of times saying I want to hear more from those who fail. What I actually want is people working with mentors and the mentors saying why they are failing. But Courtland has always wanted to focus on the success stories, since those are the models to follow. I understand that logic. But still I want to hear from those who fail, especially those who are in the process of failing.
• jasaloo 4y ago
  Sounds like you were motivated, hard-working, and played the game as best you could. Though it sounds like you might've overlooked two of the most important ingredients entrepreneurs need when getting something off the ground: - vast web of influential family connections - inherited wealth Maybe go back and try it with these two?
• Kalanos 4y ago
  The SaaS age is over. It's biotech's turn now.
• taternuts 4y ago
  I've given up on being that 10x developer that has a laundry list of accomplishments in tech everyone would be proud of about 5 years ago. Unlike most people, I did know what it would take as my dad had done it (and his dad before him as a nuclear physicist). I've seen the insane amount of hours and dedication it takes to run a successful company, I've seen the tradeoffs in life you have to make, and I've seen it really run my dad down. I became a lot happier in life when I decided I was not going to follow in their footsteps. Neither of them have been great at being happy, and that's something I'm more focused on now.
• rkagerer 4y ago
  Sorry to hear you're burned out. I hope you can find a healthy reset, and happiness in what you focus on next. I never had a paid customer To others, I would suggest building something you have someone willing to pay for is not a bad start for a new venture. May not be as glamourous as burning gobs of VC capital but it's probably more sustainable.
• krumpet 4y ago
  The simple fact that you understand the rough road to success tells me you have a lot to offer to entrepreneurs that follow you. Regardless of whether your product achieved monetary success, everything you've learned and the wisdom you've gained makes you a success in my book. I couldn't agree more about people peddling quick solutions to everything. Any time I see a "learn X in 24-hours" or whatever, I just shake my head. Anything worth learning / pursuing takes time, dedication, and hard work. Nobody builds a company, learns to play guitar, or masters baking in a day, a week, or even a year. People peddling such false promises are just selling snake oil. You, however, have the scars to prove you've been there, lived the journey, and could offer a lot of support to other struggling entrepreneurs.
• kh0st 4y ago
  It sounds like you fell in love with the idea of "the tech-start up dream"... Willing to sleep in the closet at HQ to fulfil that dream, put your heart and soul into it - but don't have matching tech. And I get it, that's backwards. But deciding to be an inventor is a tough road to walk. And being in the tech-start up space you are going to be dealing with vipers and scorpions - not ideal. And even if YOU have a perfect idea - your chances of success are still slim. Start small and build up. You don't need a facility, team, or anything but the smallest decent product. Build it, the rest will come. But these influencers are going to destroy us all. Avoid for advice at all costs.
• rafalbel 4y ago
  Could you show us your products please? Maybe other indie hackers are not the best audience for your stuff, and you're just digging in the wrong place.
• willmadden 4y ago
  Entrepreneurship is mostly sales.
• MarcelOlsz 4y ago
  Don't worry I'm the same way but with 10x your level of failure. I am done with tech and money and every cunt obsessed with any variation of these two things. The mistake you made was thinking you were going to make free money by click clacking at a keyboard like all these other keyboard warrior stories you read. Don't worry, I made the exact same mistake for 15 years straight. The part we probably missed is being born well connected with family members that can give you $50k on a whim. No ivy and no connections = no chance. It was designed this way. We had no chance.
• neycoda 4y ago
  This is why there needs to be good jobs, wages, and benefits, so that so many people aren't feeling like they have to be entrepreneurs to have a good life. These things have been undercut over the decades to maximize profit for the few. Not everybody can be an entrepreneur, but most entrepreneurs need good worker, and they typically far outnumber the entrepreneurs. Workers make the entrepreneurs money, and need to be treated well. Treat them well, and you'll have less people trying to compete with you, and more wanting to help you build your dream and benefit from with you.
• templarchamp 4y ago
  You have to choose the right road with right companion for the journey. If you choose the wrong road, does not matter how fast or hard you go, you will never get there.
• templarchamp 4y ago
  I have vast industry experience. I know lot of problems in different businesses. The challenge I have is putting together a good 2-3 member team. My friends are retired full time workers. If you are interested, DM me.
• n1c00o 4y ago
  Sorry if it might look subjective or raw, but I think the problem here is, as you greatly highlighted, the entrepreneurial porn bullshit existing on the Internet. The thing is almost everyone wants to get the saint Graal, financial freedom blah blah... and thus, the same people overthink the life to find problems to solve where in reality, the problem is not worth solving. Nevertheless, I like your point since it is rare to see *real* posts of someone giving up and realising their errors. Your second paragraph is important and I hope more people could realise that Product Hunt is mainly full of junk, from raw copies of existing and successful products to fake comments. Every time I open Product Hunt and click on some random product, I can clearly see comments that are unrealistic, and it contributes to this idea of "everything is. problem to solve". At the end of the day, the real freedom for someone is finding who they really are, and thus what they have to do to be happy, because once you do something you like, you will feel free. Once again, I am glad you realised your mistakes and hope you can find your way in this world. However, don't give up forever, you never know the future /shrugh.
• deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
• Existenceblinks 4y ago
  > building an audience This is the most BS thing I've observed on twitter. It's for e-books and courses, not for usual target customers. "Build audience before selling" is also utter BS. To be fair, one type of this approach works, that is solving customers' problems for free (it may be counted as building audience in a broad sense), and sell them a package of full-blown solutions later. I mean, building friends on twitter is a good thing, but that's indirect benefit or benefit that doesn't affect the process of getting customers at all.
• mitjam 4y ago
  If you think you have nothing left to give, look at the success of this very submission. You hit a nerve. It would be interesting to learn more about the specifics of your venture and learn more about your lessons learned. Wish you all the best.
• dennis_jeeves1 4y ago
  >PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE PROTECT YOUR MENTAL HEALTH AT ALL COST! You forgot to mention physical health, unlike mental health the damage to physical health can be relatively permanent and relatively irreversible. And of course physical health and mental health is related.
• ouraf 4y ago
  There's no shame in being a freelance or employee. The whole "foster community" thing is extremely demanding and unlike what these "success stories" on youtube imply, it isn't for everyone. Focus on what you do best or what is less stressful for you to do in the area you work on. Make some new friends, share some stories and have a laugh about the worst parts of the job when you can. A humble, but peaceful life is better than getting consumed by a vortex of false promises and lies.
• di-sukharev 4y ago
  For some reason you are talking about making a start up and not solving a problem and helping people. As I got it — you want the success and not just to help people. Looks like your ideas didn’t drive you really and it was just about being successful entrepreneur. If you love what you do, then it doesn’t matter how many times you fall, it’s just fun. I believe this is the mindset, but please don’t listen to me like I am one of this in the influencers on business making money out of nothing. I’m just a software engineer, I haven’t helped people a lot myself by creating a product that would be making me happy by just creating it and improving. So anyway, I believe that if things don’t drive you — then don’t do them and if you do something that makes you happy — then it’s fun to fail and you don’t feel like giving up if you don’t have upvotes on product hunt, you do this for yourself. Sure, if you don’t have feedback on what you are doing or the feedback is negative it’s less fun and the point to think again, if it really drives you and worth spending more time or or putting this game on pause and go playing another game that is more fun.
• johdesilentio 4y ago
  What do people think of Alex Hormozi in this regard?
• moonlight12 4y ago
  Giving up is not an option find you and get your life back.
• Cort3z 4y ago
  I have been down a similar path as you, and I too have given up on several products. One thing I have learned is that in many cases you do not have to work 100% on your product for it to become a success. First and foremost you have to generate income for your life. Without it you will never succeed. There is, in my opinion, a misconception that this has to come from an investor. From the years I have been doing this, most kinds of investment is only complicating the process. Now there are stakeholders requiring stuff, and you lose some degree of control. Disclaimer; The next section is my personal opinion with statements I cannot back up with anything other than my own experience. What most startups need is cash flow. The most reliable way to achieve this us to sell hours. It does require you to spend time building someone else’s stuff, but the team will gain experience and you can build up a cash reserve. Then spend your own money buildings your own product. This approach will drastically increase yours chances for success, but possibly reduce the probability of creating “the next Facebook” or whatever. From my experience, you go from 1/20 to 3/4 probably of being able to live off of the company. It’s a grind, but it is much more reliable. With all this said, you do not need to “give up”, but to change mode. If you are able, let the product live. The more time it gets to exist the more chances it has to meet new customers. Of course, there are costs involved, and it might not be possible to do this.
• kirso 4y ago
  I posted this ages ago, but stats are against you: https://twitter.com/kirso_/status/1314138323951050753?s=20 https://twitter.com/kirso_/status/1314138323951050753?s=20 In the end, you just need to place enough bets without going all-in. If you go all in, you always have an extreme event of losing it all and starting from scratch. 90% of the people should not go into startups but just build an SMB. Who cares about $1B outcomes? Get freedom first, then swing for the fences. EDIT: After reading several comments on bad mental health and going into debt. There is nothing glorifying in poverty and mental illness. Take care of yourself. Knowing when to quit is as important as when to persevere. But I wish everyone a good, calm and balanced life rather than being on both ends of the extreme. Perhaps its time to celebrate mediocrity?
• tinodb 4y ago
  I like to follow Pieter Levels in this regard. He’s very open on what works and what doesn’t. Yes he has thousands of followers now, but that didn’t come easy. He tried a lot, only 4 projects out o 70+ made money: https://twitter.com/levelsio/status/1457315274466594817 https://twitter.com/levelsio/status/1457315274466594817
• tikiman163 4y ago
  You're not an Indie Entrepreneur, that is complete nonsense. Indie just means independent, and given that all entrepreneurs are by definition independent, you're kind of giving me insight into why you failed. Indie only applies to 2 industries, game development and music, both of these industries are mainly dominated by major studios which people work for even if they are well known publicly. Don't get me wrong, starting a business is extremely hard work, and I'm sure you did everything you could, but when every 5th word you say or write is essentially a buzz word, people don't respond to that. Also, if all of your advertising was digital, then you need a minimum startup capital that can pay influences to make people aware of you and your product. It sucks, but unless you have a sizable following or are yourself a really good salesman, you're more likely to fail. This is something I've studied extensively, and it's painful every time I have to tell a friend they would suck at running their own business.
• yef 4y ago
  I'm very curious what you may have done differently knowing what you know now. Particularly any self-care / mental health. Please feel free to contact me at the email in my profile. You sound like you're in a down place, and I sympathize. You had the guts to try though. And it sounds like you built something useful. That's pretty good.
• limbojunkie 4y ago
  Do what 99% of startup "influencers" do and write a book and create a course on how to do a startup and avoid your mistakes. I am serious here.
• monkeybusiness1 4y ago
  Amigo, stay strong. we generated 200k in revenue in our first year by burning through 100k. Now we have no liquidity, and no investor wants to seed us further. our revenue is going to drop and we are literally not able to pay our people. I am millionaire on paper, and broke irl :) Feels bad to fail now, but it is what it is.
• PovilasID 4y ago
  I had a couple of projects that failed. I still think I could have increased my odds of succeeding by putting in more effort but at that point I was too drained to even try. I remember showing research paper to one of decision makers and them saying 'I do not believe this' without even looking at it. I knew then that I was done. That did not have enough energy to try to enter a new market and build a new business model.
• dawit123 4y ago
  If you failed on your startup i would recommend you to read "The Right It: Why So Many Ideas Fail and How to Make Sure Yours Succeed" book by Alberto Savoia. This will give you basic tools to succeed and an explanation for why you failed before. Check it out and you will understand why you failed building your startup. Also don't get over your self, try to give some time for your self and take rest then after reading this book start building something new that you can test and validate the market. Good Luck.
• arendtio 4y ago
  Some time ago I read 'The Hard Thing about Hard Things' by Ben Horowitz and what you describe reminds me about 'The Struggle'. Ben Horowitz wrote about it in a blog post too [1] and I find it gives a much better impression how entrepreneurship feels like, than most other descriptions. Always monitor your mental health and when in doubt, keep it first. [1]: https://a16z.com/2012/06/15/the-struggle-2/ https://a16z.com/2012/06/15/the-struggle-2/
• AyodeleTijesuse 4y ago
  I'll still say don't give up yet. Rest and look at it again. There might be something you ain't seeing yet.
• Nomentatus 4y ago
  The vast majority of new businesses fail. Always have. Using the "E" word doesn't change that. SO don't start a business that isn't really worth the risk; have a Why, have some special sauce that nobody else has (such as genuine intellectual property), or develop it fast; or maybe a very uncommon insight about the future. The good news that you have valuable experience, should you bump up against those last mentioned factors at some point.
• chrisyeh 4y ago
  It's hard to bring something new into the world. If it were easy, it would have already happened. Nearly all startups fail. They're trying to do something new, and the status quo is one hell of a competitor. Doing nothing is easy and most people's default choice. Don't jump into entrepreneurship because you're lured in by the potential results; start a company if the process, regardless of the result, is something you enjoy or need. Back in the early 2000s, after my first failed startup, I tried doing the math. If only 10% of VC-backed startups succeed (the numbers for bootstrapped startups are even worse) and assuming that I could manage to get VC backing for my idea, and further assuming that each failed attempt to start a company could consume five years of time (you have to account for the time you likely need to spend working for established companies between startups to rebuild your finances after years of below-market pay), and finally assuming that at age 30, I would get four more attempts before I'd be 50 and face increasing ageism that would prevent me from raising money, then the math was simple: There was a 0.9 X 0.9 x 0.9 x 0.9, or 0.66 chance that I'd spend my entire career chasing this dream and never succeed. I had to get comfortable with this as a default outcome if I wanted to keep going down the entrepreneurship path. It's a little better if you're starting out at age 20, but even then, 0.9 to the 6th power is still 0.53. In other words, the majority outcome for entrepreneurship, even if you persevere for 30 years, is that you never succeed. Yet it may still be worth doing because A) I'm sure you think your odds are better than average and B) It's what you really want to do.
• proteo5 4y ago
  Learn to rest, but not to give up. Rest for some time. It seems that you just need to learn a couple of things to continue, also to find mentors that have build real and tangible things, not the ones that you see on youtube. The foundation of everything is to provide value to the customers. If you allow me lest talk.
• kasvith 4y ago
  As a person who is running a startup, I know how hard it is to get there. Its been 2years since we started and still we are working days/nights without even having a single chance to get a vacation or a day off. Only day offs I had was my sick days where I was unable to work at all. This is the reality with starting a business, making a real impact. Its no easy thing to do. If I look back, we are in a good place compared to where we were...But still it has a long journey to go, tbh I really have no idea we will make it...
• rubizza 4y ago
  I heard one of the founders of YCombinator say on a podcast that you have to be brought up upper middle class to succeed. He said he didn't like saying it, and I guess I believe him. I also believe he's right, and that it sucks. You didn't say anything about class in your post, but connections and confidence are something that the upper middle class (and higher) life brings. Quite possible that it also awards mental health advantages. I would have been a good founder, had I been born later and richer. Sometimes life just gives you what you get. I wish you luck. There's no shame in being an IC or a manager rather than a founder.