13 ms·
Winter & Cold Weather EV Range Loss in 7,000 Cars
- JKCalhoun 4y agoDo EV's keep their batteries warm electrically? I know some RV LiPo batteries have integrated heaters to keep the batteries from going below freezing. I suspect that's an acceptable tradeoff in cold climates. Ideally you would keep the battery warm while charging since it's more or less free power when tethered, and thermally insulate the battery enclosure to try to retain that heat as long as possible.
- mrexroad 4y ago> thermally insulate the battery enclosure to try to retain that heat as long as possible Might pose a problem during heavy discharge with 105F ambient temps?
- Unklejoe 4y agoYou could use heat exchangers (coolant) with a thermostat. It would stay closed until the batteries reached a certain temperature then it would dissipate heat through a radiator. Just like a coolant system on an ICE car.
- mrexroad 4y agoThey do already :) Fwiw, Tesla already utilizes active (liquid) cooling as passive (air) cooling is insufficient even without insulation; further, air+liquid cooling is still not enough so refrigeration and heat exchanger is also used to remove thermal energy. Removing passive cooling and adding insulation would require refrigerated cooling to be used for a far greater percentage of time (more weight, more energy). It’s simply easier to heat the batts in cold than it is to cool them. Not to mention there’s worst case failure modes—too cold = dead batt, too hot = combustion.
- 51Cards 4y agoI wonder though if there would have to be a balance, as you wouldn't want it to over-heat when charging during an Arizona summer.
- dieortin 4y agoInsulation also works to keep heat out.
- yebyen 4y agoOr in – a battery while charging tends to emit quite a lot of heat on its own, doesn't it?
- dahfizz 4y agoNot if the battery itself is generating heat. Then the insulation keeps the heat in.
- jacquesm 4y agoDoing this in a passive way would put significant upper limits on charging speed. You'd have to combine insulation with some active way of getting rid of excess heat.
- Tagbert 4y agoMost EVs will both heat and cool their batteries as needed when plugged in to maintain a healthy temperature.
- sokoloff 4y agoSome do; the article lists some of them in the lower car-specific section. Mine [Nissan LEAF] runs an electric heater when the battery is below -20°C [-4°F], which is slightly different than the article [article says -1°F]. The problem with thermal insulation of the battery enclosure is that you want the battery to cool towards ambient in most conditions, so if you use ambient air cooling only [as the LEAF does], you probably don't want to do much thermal insulation for the rare times when it's below -20°C. Most EVs have a more active cooling solution, which could allow for thermal insulation of the pack while still having adequate cooling via a water/coolant loop.
- 2000UltraDeluxe 4y agoThat doesn't sound very practical; keeping the batteries of all cars warm 24/7 would require immense amounts of electricity on a country-wide scale. It's not like everyone have heated garages, and outdoor temperatures often reach -30c or below in arctic climates.
- lazide 4y ago1) the batteries are insulated 2) you don’t need to keep them warm 24/7, just above freezing when charging them or and/or when you want more efficiency or maximum power (like a longer trip, or midway through a drive). ICE engines are quite inefficient when ‘cold’ (and diesel may refuse to run at all), this isn’t a new problem. The batteries don’t need to be warm by human standards, and the vehicle will still work even when quite cold, just not very well.
- 2000UltraDeluxe 4y agoHow much energy does it take to heat a battery pack from -30c to 1c? ICE engines definitely have their own set of cold-related issues, but I can't imagine heating a 150 kg engine block would require the same amounts of energy required to heat 500 kgs of battery twice (charging and before driving). Mind you, I'm not arguing against EV's or anything; I'm just saying it sounds like there's an engineering problem that needs to be solved before EV's can replace ICE cars in very cold climates, which incidentally, also tend to be where the most range is needed.
- lazide 4y agoNope. It isn’t that much energy compared to losses in ICE engines/existing inefficiencies. Feel free to do the energy calcs - there is no engineering challenge here for EVs that is currently unsolved.
- 2000UltraDeluxe 4y agoI prefer practical tests. Right now, however, the authorities here encourage people to avoid using electric pre-heaters in order to save electricity, so I'll take your word for it. :) Ideally, things like this wouldn't be a problem, but where I live EV's is simply not an option during winter. Charging from a regular 240V/16A outlet takes too long, the nearest proper charging station is over 25km away, and the grid out here won't handle the load of everyone getting proper chargers at home. Adding additional load to heat batteries of thousands of cars probably won't be a viable option until the grid has been modernized. Luckily, this shouldn't be a problem in warmer, more densly populated areas anyway. Better to roll out EV's where it's viable, and sort out the fringe cases later.
- jws 4y agoThe common RV battery for cold weather is a LiFePO4 battery. These can be used down to -20°C (-4°F), but you must not charge them below freezing, it will destroy the electrodes. The batteries integrate a heater which absorbs charging energy until the battery is safely warm enough to accept the charge, then charges normally. In an EV this would be handled when charging by running a heater until it is a safe to accept charge. When driving, any time the battery becomes too cold you would divert regenerative braking energy into heating the batteries instead.
- Gordonjcp 4y agoAs an aside, many former-Soviet-bloc vehicle manuals mention switching the headlights on for a couple of minutes before attempting to start the car in extremely cold weather. The reason is that pulling ~10A or so causes enough resistive heating that the battery voltage will go *up* over that time, and allow the lead-acid battery chemistry to work better when you throw a couple of hundred amps of starter motor across it. Edit: typo
- davedx 4y agoYup my wife just almost got stranded in her Mach-e. Fantastic car but cold weather battery is noticeably worse than our Model 3’s. Something to keep in mind.
- joshgachnang 4y agoFord's decision to forgo a heat pump is a real head scratcher. Sad the Lightning didn't make the page, because I'm very interested how much it affects it.
- clysm 4y agoMy 2019 Model 3 doesn't have a heat pump either.
- dymk 4y agoYeah, but it's 2022 now, and the Model 3 has a heat pump. It is a head-scratcher why Ford didn't put one in their 2022 flagship EV.
- itsoktocry 4y agoHoovies Garage tested the Lightning, and its towing capacity and cold weather performance were both terrible. I don't think EV trucks are ready for the big time yet. https://youtu.be/j8gH52gKejE https://youtu.be/j8gH52gKejE
- heresie-dabord 4y agoHere's an article about the F-150 Lightning being driven in Quebec. You can use Google Translate to obtain a serviceable English version. https://mobile.guideautoweb.com/articles/68882/ford-f-150-lightning-2022-on-a-remorque-et-on-a-ete-franchement-decu/ https://mobile.guideautoweb.com/articles/68882/ford-f-150-li...
- totalview 4y agoThe data in their nicely colored graph is wildly inaccurate. I have a long range Tesla model 3 (in Alaska) and the range is over 290 miles (it says 310 miles when full, but doesn’t quite get that, even in the summer). This is information you can trivially look up… I know Tesla gets a lot of flak, but it’s batteries outperform most of the other cars that are listed.
- SQueeeeeL 4y agoSounds like a lot of variance in experience, even in this thread. But if your car isn't breaking down, sounds like you should keep using it! But also be aware of inherent differences in battery performance in cold weather when recommending EVs to other Alaskans
- isoprophlex 4y agoWe have a tiny electric fiat 500 for small distance trips. 21 kWh battery. My wife routinely gets 7 km/kWh out of it, I struggle to reach above 5.5 km/kWh. Driving style really matters. Especially with such a small battery ;)
- jacquesm 4y agoThe Germans would say that you have a heavy foot.
- jackmott 4y ago
- anamexis 4y agoAre you suggesting there is nearly zero difference in battery range in cold weather? Because that seems like something you can trivially look up as well. Heaters use power. Plenty of other articles seem to back up the ~20% loss for Teslas, such as: https://www.carscoops.com/2021/01/how-much-worse-is-a-tesla-model-3s-range-over-2000-miles-in-the-winter/ https://www.carscoops.com/2021/01/how-much-worse-is-a-tesla-... One interesting thing that points out is that internal combustion engines are also about 15% less efficient at cold temperatures.
- plebianRube 4y agoI make sure the displayed range on the M3 is double for the distance I want to travel. Winter tires, snow and ice sticking to the car, and -15C are quite normal occurrences here, and range display is pretty consistently half of what to expect.
- rconti 4y agoDoes the nav system do a good job of compensating? The "normal" display on the 3 is based on the EPA rating and is always wrong, but when I navigate, I find the trip range thing to be quite accurate -- even factoring in upcoming hills and traffic.
- plebianRube 4y agoIt may be better, but I generally look at my current Wh/km usage for an estimate of my remaining range. Average over 130000km (3y) is 191Wh/km Winter can be as bad as 330Wh/km (-30C 110km/h) Summer can be good, but I've never seen a 100km trip better than 145Wh/km. Generally the lower the remaining range, the better the EPA range (estimate) is.
- newZWhoDis 4y agoYes, but you need to use the “energy” app and have nav destination set. The little mi number next to the battery is “miles of ideal range”, so flat 65mph 70 degrees etc. The energy app shows you live estimates based on distance, elevation, wind speed, temperature, humidity, tire pressure, cabin climate load, and even your phone charger.
- plebianRube 4y agoThe energy app is pretty good, it fits pretty well with my double policy but I don't look at it anymore, since it requires diverting my attention moreso than glancing ant the estimate, and additional tapping to bring it up. As a rule of thumb I halve the EPA estimate in winter and 2/3-3/4 it in summer. I have had no range issues doing this for the 130000km + I have owned the vehicle. Edit: If I'm going to tap, I check the Wh/km, as that is what I'm used to. It was better before they removed it from the swipe, but hey, we gotta fill those sprints somehow.
- whoisthemachine 4y agoInteresting data, but for the Model 3, I think an important piece is missing: model year. Around 2021 they switched out the resistive cabin heating for heat pump heating, which had a positive impact on cold weather range. Anecdotally speaking, my 2020 Model 3 gets between a 30-40% range hit in the winter.
- Someone1234 4y agoThis article is about battery capacity loss due to cold weather (either directly or due to use of battery-heaters). Cabin heating is over and above the loss discussed here.
- tedd4u 4y agoThe article explicitly compares real-world data as experienced during on-road usage, showing how EVs with more efficient cabin heating (heat pump e.g.) lose less range in the cold.
- mannykannot 4y agoThis is explicitly a study of real-world driving experiences, so, unless people generally drive through winter without cabin heating, then to exclude its effects, their use of it must be controlled for, and I see no evidence that they have done so. In fact, this paragraph about the BMW i3 suggests that they are lumping together cars having different cabin heating methods and options, if they are the same make and model: This little BMW clearly experiences some winter range loss in cold temperatures. But keep in mind that many i3 models include a heat pump in the US and some feature a gasoline range extender (called REx). Both of those help to preserve range in cold temperature.
- crazygringo 4y agoI find it strange that the charts only go down to 20°F, when for example at the moment I write this comment, it's -5°F (-21°C) in Bismarck, North Dakota. And sub-zero Fahrenheit temperatures are pretty common in the winter across the Northeast, especially at night. "Normal" driving conditions extend way below just 20°F.
- dwighttk 4y agoMaybe there aren’t many people driving EVs there
- rconti 4y agoWell they're quite common in nordic countries; of course, the population of nordic countries tends to be in the southern latitudes.
- whoisthemachine 4y agoWhile they aren't as popular in the Dakota's, there's quite a few EV's in Minnesota, where the temperature ranges are similar (1 degree Fahrenheit at the moment).
- dwighttk 4y ago> It includes aggregated and anonymized data from 7,000 vehicles in the Recurrent community from across the United States as well as tens of thousands of data points from on-board devices that provide data on energy usage. Maybe some more Northerners should join Recurrent?
- AtlasBarfed 4y agoKeep in mind ICEs lose range in winter as well. I used to hypermile on occasion and I could get 500 miles on a tank in summer but 350-400 in winter. The air is more dense, the tires are probably less efficient, the wind is stronger, and cold start efficiency is reduced.
- 1970-01-01 4y agoThis does not translate well to EVs as they have nothing to start and don't use air to move.
- topspin 4y ago> Keep in mind ICEs lose range in winter as well. Yes, this talking point has been made enough times. What isn't said is the ICE range loss is trivially simple to overcome: buy fuel more frequently.
- Geee 4y agoHow did they collect the data? It seems to be some kind of crowdsourcing. It's not possible to accurately determine range if they don't run them completely out of charge. It's doubtful that they got that many datapoints on every vehicle and every temperature.
- api 4y agoThe Leaf has a bad reputation for this but this shows it’s toward the middle of the pack. I have one and this matches my experience. Of course I have a 2022 and this looks at later models. Maybe older models were a lot worse. They’ve changed up the battery chemistry to be more tolerant of a wider temperature range I think.
- wazoox 4y agoYes old Leafs are notorious for terrible battery management. The battery overheated on long, rapid trips in summer and gave terrible charge times, too.
- deleted 4y ago[deleted]
- cameronh90 4y agoMy fuel economy drops about 20% on my petrol car in cold weather city driving. I don't know what causes the difference, perhaps waiting for the car to warm up and windows to defrost.
- St-Clock 4y agoWinter tire (if you have them) and heating are the likely culprits!
- Hamuko 4y agoHeating shouldn't take any fuel efficiency in a petrol-powered car since the heat is (usually) just a by-product of the engine's inefficiencies.
- kube-system 4y agoLetting the vehicle idle in the driveway while the windshield defrosts will decrease fuel mileage, because the engine runs for longer.
- Hamuko 4y agoIt's not really the fault of "heating" that you're idling your car unnecessarily. I'm definitely not idling my car to defrost my windshield, as I'll most likely pre-heat my car, or if I don't, I'll scrape the frost off.
- kube-system 4y agoI feel like we’re losing context here. My comment wasn’t in reference to what I do, or what you do. It was in reference to what the root comment said they did. The person in the root comment proposed that their practice of letting their ICE car warm up to defrost in the winter may lead to decreased gas mileage. This is correct; it will.
- cameronh90 4y ago
- donatj 4y agoAs a Minnesotan with an unheated detached garage, I’d be very interested to know about -40°F performance. We get a couple of those days every year. I have been looking at my next car potentially being an EV and am really curious about the extremes.
- castratikron 4y agoA lot of ICE cars won't even start at 40 below. Those cases should count as zero mile range
- laptop-man 4y agocold batts always get worse range got to plug it in and have a batt warmer (like Tesla). not such a foreign idea when you have to do that for Diesel to get them to start in the cold.
- 5e92cb50239222b 4y agoThose can be warmed up with a g̶a̶s̶o̶l̶i̶n̶e blowtorch. Or you can fit your car with an alarm system that auto starts the engine throughout the night to keep it warm. That's what pretty much everyone is doing where I'm from (-25°C is a pretty typical winter temperature here, with drops down to -40-45°C for a couple weeks each winter). After that you get tolerable gas mileage. I don't drive much, but from my friends' description it sounds like you get around 30-40% more gas usage compared to warmer months.
- metadat 4y agoWhat is a gasoline torch? Would blowtorching a vehicle be detrimental and destructive to it?
- 5e92cb50239222b 4y agoYeah, I probably should have looked in the dictionary before posting that. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blowtorch https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blowtorch It's pretty dangerous, burns down quite a few cars each year, but people don't care or have no other options. I think during the last couple of years there were two fires near my house alone.
- markus_zhang 4y agoWait, judging from some comments people actually take heating and winter tires into consideration when calculating differences in mileage? But I have to disagree. You have to use heating and winter tires during winter. The correct calculation should be take that out first and then compare the numbers. For example if heating and winter tires take say 100 miles, full mileage says 500, but car stops around 300 miles, then it loses 100 miles, not 200 miles. For sure ordinary people don't know how many miles heating and winter tires take away but researchers should be able to test them separately.
- killjoywashere 4y agoUh, you don't loose range to heating in an ICE engine. The heater is just a secondary radiator, so it actually improves engine efficiency. Old trick for driving an under-powered car over the Rockies in the summer: open the windows and turn the heater on.
- cmrdporcupine 4y agoYou don't lose "range" on an ICE vehicle but you definitely lose mileage efficiency. But ICE vehicles also just throw off insane amounts of wasted energy in the form of heat all year long and in the winter some of it gets converted into comfort. People are just accustomed to throwing that money away, I guess.
- frosted-flakes 4y agoNot all of them do. My diesel VW struggles to maintain coolant temperature in really cold weather, and even in summer the radiator fans almost never turn on unless the AC is used. When it's -25C out it takes 10-15 minutes before I get full heat out of the vents (hooray for heated seats), and if I pull up to a stop light with the heater on the coolant temperature immediately starts to drop. And there's nothing wrong with my car; they're all like that. And the fuel efficiency reflects it: I normally get about 5 L/100 km (46 mpG).
- 4y ago
- jakewins 4y agoIn the end it’s not clear to me that the winter range reduction will matter; battery learning rate is about 20% per production doubling, and there must be another 2-3 doublings (or more?) before the sigmoid levels off. So, by the time 50%+ of new cars in US are EV, you can buy something with 2-3x the range of today at todays price point. And the range today is not bad; on Friday I drove 200 miles in my Kona, in 5F with winter tires, stopped to eat and then drove another 200 miles.. like, road tripping is for sure less smooth than with gasoline, but it’s marginally worse, not show stopper, and is gap rapidly closing.
- sitkack 4y agoIt is too bad they don't have the estimated reduction next to the actual, then we could reason about a transfer function between estimated and actual. As it is, when they have an actual reading, they don't include the estimate on the chart. We have no idea how closely they correlate.
- mikeytown2 4y agoLiFeYPO4 - lithium yttrium has an incredible temperature range of -45°C to 85°C. Slightly less energy dense than LiFePO4 and has more cycles (5000+). Winston Is one manufacturer that I know of.
- pifm_guy 4y agoAt some point, it will be worth fitting a car out with double glazed windows to reduce heat loss/gain through the windows. That should give reduce the energy used for cabin heating, reducing range loss, perhaps by half for longer journeys.
- falcolas 4y agoAny gains to winter range would likely be lost to the added weight year round.
- pifm_guy 4y agoTrue, although with double glazing you can probably make the HVAC unit smaller, saving weight there too. And you might not need air vents to defog the screen either - a well insulated window won't get condensation on it to start with. And double glazing typically needn't be much thicker than single glazing - as long as the air gap between the panels is sealed, then the air itself gives the whole window dynamic rigidity. That's why you sometimes see a thief throw a brick at a double glazed window and it doesn't break.
- kube-system 4y agoSome cars already have this, for sound isolation… including the model 3 and model S. I’ve had some cars in the past with this feature as well. It is relatively common.
- roody15 4y agoYes northerner checking in here. Yes in the winter at sub zero temps your cars battery looses half of its starting crank amps. Half just from the low temps. Makes complete sense that an EV would have much worse performance in winter conditions. Further longevity of such vehicle would likely be much less than one found it warmer temps. We still have a ways to go to solve EV issues for mass adoption… however am optimistic that we are on the right path.
- lazide 4y agoAs with all things ‘it depends’ - most EV’s have battery thermal management that will heat up/cool down the pack so it’s within its optimal range. If the EV is left plugged in overnight, it’s probably going to be in better shape than an ICE car with a block and battery heater.
- nonethewiser 4y agoAnd this is only comparing 70 degrees to 32. Whereas normal temps in many northern states (not to mention Canada) are going to be closer to 0. Not to mention lows that dip way below 0. What is an EV's range at -15? It's hard to imagine EVs fulfilling more than a niche for many. EVs probably look reasonably to people with money in urban areas but that's a minority of people.
- twobitshifter 4y agoI can’t decide on my next car - Live in cold village on US east coast - ICE might be going obsolete - BEVs are improving quickly so what I buy might be superseded soon - feels almost like the early days of smartphones. - Gas prices are very high - Used and new car prices are unreasonably high - There’s not enough chargers to support the number of EVs being driven in my area leading to long waits. - I could charge at home, but don’t have a garage - My car now is 8 years old but has 150k miles.
- eastendguy 4y ago> I could charge at home, but don’t have a garage No problem (why should it?) > BEVs are improving quickly so what I buy might be superseded soon That WAS my concern, but EV resale value is amazingly stable, better than most ICE in my area (EU). After all, EVs are still cars, so innovation cycles are long (many years).
- falcolas 4y agoFWIW, my own investigations into this from a location that is currently 0: I’m going with a plug-in hybrid. There are precious few charging stations in the Midwest (especially those affiliated with the Subaru/Toyota brands), and a lot of miles between cities. A majority of my driving is inside the 45 mile range so the batteries, and the ability to fill up conventionally eases my worries about detours or delays. Hopefully when this new vehicle dies, the charging (and cold weather) story will have improved.
- thenameipicked 4y agoI'm in the midwest, with a plug-in hybrid. I wish I had gotten a BEV instead of the hybrid I have. With the plug-in, I was filling up more than I had hoped (maybe once every 2-3 months), but more importantly, the maintenance is still all there. It's arguably even worse, since there are even more moving parts than a ICE vehicle (the 12V battery notably is difficult to replace). I have a Chevy Pacifica Hybrid, so your experience may be different. Unfortunately, there aren't many great options for a BEV vans (yet), but here's to hoping.
- 4y ago
- yason 4y agoRule of thumb: divide the official range by half when driving in winter conditions because of a) takes a long time for the battery to heat up b) higher friction in colder temps c) cabin and window heating eat up 20-25% of the capacity.
- InTheArena 4y agoI made the change to a Model Y because of the heat pump for better cold water behavior. so far so good.
- gytisgreitai 4y agoCitroen ec4 (with heatpump) WLTP: 350km ev-database: 260km Short city distances (5-10km) in summer: 310km Short city distnces (5-10km) at -4 Celcius: 100km wltp is a joke. Guessometer is a joke. Range with ev in winter is a joke.
- everdrive 4y agoI wish they did tests where cabin heat was minimized. Depending on what your temperatures are, driving a cold car might not be viable. But, it would be nice to know how much of the loss is due to cold itself, and how much of the loss is due to comfort.
- d_runs_far 4y agoFirst winter with a Kia Soul EV here - and at -20° C this past week, after about 10 minutes with just heated seats/steering wheel on and no fan/forced air heating, it starts fogging up and my feet (even in decent winter boots) start getting chilly. Turn on the heater and crank the fan, and watch the range drop about 3-5km per increment on the fan dial. Our other vehicle is an old Jeep Liberty with a V6; gas mileage drops on it as well in winter - combination of some pre-warming and using full time 4WD more. I've always planned for 20-40% less range since I started driving well over 30 years ago, it is just something you do living in a truly cold winter climate.
- jjtheblunt 4y agoAs a 7+ year driver of a pure electric BMW i3, not the range extender version, in a HOT climate its last four years, far more overlooked is the degeneration of battery capacity when run and charged in heat. I mean 40+ Celsius summers have been brutal on the battery which is a cooled pack. Possibly this has improved a ton since our i3 was the original model year, and BMW replaced the original pack and sent it back to Germany for analysis, consistent with the i3 being an experiment by design. It’s made me curious if this is purposefully overlooked by the EV bandwagon.
- galangalalgol 4y agoThe nissan leaf demonstrated this problem in Phoenix immediately upon release, it is a known thing. Tesla seems to take yhe cooling loop very seriously. The batteries in the early model s had some issues but after that they seem to asymptote at 20% range loss and stay there. At least so far. I don't know who else takes cooling that seriously. I'd look for liquid cooling but also phase change hooked into the ac system, as liquid and a radiator only gets you down to ambient, which is too hot in an increasingly large number of locations much of the year.
- jjtheblunt 4y agoYep, our i3 battery is cooled as a pack, but degraded fast north of Phoenix (higher altitude, still hot as hell for 4 months, super nice for 8 months including freezing and occasional snow). Turned out the cooling system for the original pack broke, but it was unclear if that happened in Arizona or was a one-off quirk, so the degradation of the original pack happened for sure in Arizona.
- ZeroGravitas 4y agoThe original LEAF was also susceptible to heat degredation as it was purely air cooling the pack. People who lived in places like Arizona had issues.
- abalone 4y ago[flagged]
- reaperducer 4y agoNot just Elon, but also the Muskovites who ape him. In Tesla's early days, I asked on HN and another online forum if cold weather affected range, and was soundly mocked for even asking the question. It made sense to me. Heater uses electricity. Moving uses electricity. Using heater means less electricity for moving. But, no. I was entirely wrong because Musk has discovered the magic combination of pixie dust and unicorn farts that negate cold, or heat, as a factor.
- colordrops 4y agoWhat are you talking about? These articles have nothing to do with the topic.
- abalone 4y agoIt's literally about EV range loss in the winter. The journalist put Tesla's advertising to the test and took a drive up the east coast. Experienced massive range loss and had to sacrifice speed and heating. Was not instructed to plug in overnight. When he woke up he was dangerously low and only trickle charging was available at his destination in the country, which couldn't help him. Musk tried to do damage control by attacking his reputation. For example he claimed "the data showed" the NYT journalist circled one of the charger stops to run down the battery on purpose to make a juicier story. People ate it up. But turns out he just had a little trouble finding the charger in the dark.
- saltcured 4y agoForget driving range... how do EVs cope with long term parking, and how much does the winter affect that? I have become acutely aware that some car designers have not really considered "must work after parking" as a feature of a car. I had not thought much about it, but some ICE or HEV cars cannot maintain their basic (non-traction) battery unless driven several times per week at minimum. I had not thought about this much before the pandemic disrupted prior commute and travel patterns. But now, I think it is absurd that a parked car can ruin a perfectly good battery in a matter of weeks and maroon the occasional motorist. I can't understand how a marketplace allowed these designs to prosper. You shouldn't need to put a wrench to the battery terminals to park a car.
- lazide 4y agoThey definitely handle it a lot better than ICE cars! ICE cars, more than a week or two with any frequency is tempting fate.
- darknavi 4y agoNot sure about others but I parked our Tesla Model Y at the airport for ~18 days this spring and came back with only a few percent of the battery missing. This might be abnormal for Tesla owners though because many leave the dash cam/Sentry mode on which drains something like 7% a day.
- drewg123 4y agoMy Tesla Model X 100D looses 25-40% of range in the winter (and by "winter, I mean 20-50F, as I live in Virginia). This is partially due to resistance heating, and the range is better if you're somehow able to live with keeping the heat off and using just the steering wheel and seat heaters. However, one thing I've never gotten used to is just how cold my feet get in the winter in this car. Even with the heat at full blast, the footwells are quite cold. This is a very different experience from most ICE cars I've owned, where engine heat blows directly on your feet and keeps them toasty.
- pitaj 4y agoNot having enough hot air on the feet is a common issue across cars in general, from my experience.
- drewg123 4y agoThis car takes it to an entirely new level. I've never had to use heated socks in any other car I've owned, including horrible old 80s economy cars I owned in Buffalo, NY.
- darknavi 4y agoVery odd. I noticed my Model 3's floor gets quite warm in the winter on long road trips (like warm to the touch).
- steelframe 4y agoI noticed that the estimated cold weather range drop in the article for the Jaguar I-PACE is only 3%, for their definition of "cold weather." I think that's about right. I've been driving one for about 3 years now. Its rapid charge curve isn't winning any accolades, and its range given the battery size doesn't compare well against most other EVs on the market today. I've got winter tires during the cold season, so that ostensibly drags on efficiency, along with all the other reasons the article lists. The I-PACE comes equipped with a heat pump. What I will say about the I-PACE is that I find it amazingly consistent when it comes to battery consumption. There's a 150-mile trip with 9,000 feet of elevation gain that I regularly do through the Cascade mountain range year round. The speed limit for much of the trip is 70mph, but in keeping with the flow of traffic I often go a little faster than that. I never have to worry about running out of charge on that trip. During the summer I'll often arrive with about a quarter of the pack remaining. During the winter, if it's below freezing and there's snow/sleet/ice, I can get down to a little over one-eighth state of charge, depending on how aggressive I am on the throttle. I never experience so-called "range anxiety" and am never surprised by a sudden drop in estimated remaining range. Furthermore in the 3 years I've owned it, I haven't gotten a reduction in maximum range at all. This is my 4th EV, and I know how lithium ion battery packs degrade over time. The fact that I've gotten no range reduction tells me that Jaguar must have chosen to reserve a significant fraction of the pack capacity as buffer, which might help explain why the range given the pack size is less than other EV manufacturers when the car is new. I wonder what the range of your typical 5-year-old I-PACE is when compared to, say, a typical 5-year-old Audi e-tron.
- kkfx 4y agoA small note about "keep the EV plugged", I do not know, since it's LARGELY NOT DOCUMENTED, as usual, but my MG ZS EV actually "keep the battery warm", consuming around 900W. Oh, sure it's not that much, but for 24H that means 21.6kWh, witch might be around 5+€/day in various EU countries. Sure it's really not much, but it's a thing to consider. The other note is for ALL fellows IT guys, no matter their role, in automotive (and any other sector): please DO TELL the value of full disclosure. Do teach anyone that documenting things is useful and even in the process of doing it design errors came up before transmuting in horrors. Actual mean software in cars is crapware, documenting it do dot make it less crappy ALONE, but still help because people might read and compare and marking might start being warred about the disclosure of crappy designs...
- neals 4y agoAs an operator of 10 fast charging locations in Europe, I can confirm that winter business is booming.
- segmondy 4y agoWhat's crazy is how bad the Detroit made cars Bolt & Mustang are and it get's really cold in Detroit.
- jiggawatts 4y agoAlso hot weather. I rented a Model S over a weekend and got less than the 60% of the advertised range because it was 44 C (111 F) outside. With the air conditioning running at max and the battery pack likely overheating, the expected range just wasn't there.
- _ea1k 4y agoTBH, the warm weather temperatures for the Teslas listed are very atypical and borderline contradictory. I'm doubtful as to the overall accuracy of the data in this report.