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“It’s time for Apple to fix texting”

• sudden_dystopia 4y ago
  I have never experienced blurry photos or videos as this alleges. I hate read receipts and typing bubbles anyway. I do agree that Apples group chats are highly annoying. Personally, I think it is Androids text platform that is bloated and inferior.
  • bagacrap 4y ago
    you've definitely experienced blurry media if someone texted you from the other kind of phone (note that your own media will still show up crisp in the conversion window even though the other end gets a mega compressed version)
• milleramp 4y ago
  Loved “It’s time for Apple to fix texting”
  • vlmutolo 4y ago
    What's really ridiculous is that Android is now parsing this and displaying a reaction bubble.
    • meatmanek 4y ago
      What's really ridiculous is that iPhone _doesn't_ parse this and display the reaction bubble, so the SMS experience is better for Android people talking to iOS people than it is for iOS people talking to iOS people.
      • easton 4y ago
        This is fixed in iOS 16 (at least, they said it was. Haven’t tested it.)
  • monocularvision 4y ago
    Brilliant.
• hk1337 4y ago
  Let’s say Apple caves and implements RCS. What happens when Google does what Google does and changes it again, it breaks, then whines because Apple won’t implement it?
• Razengan 4y ago
  Oh, it’s the beginning of the horse corpse beating season just before every iPhone launch.
• moizici 4y ago
  Why would Apple fix something that do not affect Apple users ?
  • Veuxdo 4y ago
    Per the article, they do affect iPhone users.
    • bena 4y ago
      The article is an ad from Google. They have a vested interest. While I'm sure there are grains of truth in the article, I'm also sure they're presented in such a way to lead you to a conclusion. Google wants to either get access to the iMessage ecosystem or relegate it to the fringe. Because they can exert pressure on RCS, they cannot exert pressure on iMessage.
    • sudden_dystopia 4y ago
      Per experience, they do not. At least, they do not affect me in the slightest. Never had any of these alleged problems.
      • bhandziuk 4y ago
        It affects them in that everytime an iPhone users text me a video I have to ask them to post it somewhere else so I can view it. The videos are so small and blurry I can never see what's happening in them. I[hone users are have unsent messages to android users without cell service which happens all the time and is confusing why some texts send and some don't and it's a function of the type of phone the receiving party has (?!)
        • alexandreb 4y ago
          You get a notification if your iPhone can't send the SMS, and a clear indication that it didn't send.
      • smaryjerry 4y ago
• lostgame 4y ago
  I can’t take this site seriously. It says it’s ‘not about’ the green and blue bubbles. It is, and it’s largely that Apple has a vested interest in making their ecosystem look so much better in general. If I’m texting my friends with an Android and group chat, etc; isn’t working properly - I will automatically assume something about Android is broken, because it works perfectly to my other friends who use iPhones. Apple will never - ever - ‘fix’ this, because it’s not ‘broken’, it’s a design meant to create the illusion that iOS is the better ecosystem. iMessage is one of Apple’s most valuable psychological tricks to keep people within the ecosystem, or convert others to join in. This is a waste of a call to action. It will be about as effective as praying to Rain Gods for rain. :P Apple has a massive vested interest in not fixing this ‘problem’. There’s also a ton of cross platform messaging apps that already have no issues when used with each other - including popular open source ones like Signal. The websites’ creator has their heart in the right place, but their mind is confused. This is all intentional on Apple’s part. It’s genius and they know it. They will never willingly stop a plan that is working so very well.
  • Veuxdo 4y ago
    You've explained the subtext of the article. Which means the article did need to be written.
    • lostgame 4y ago
      lol, in no way. The article has a call to action to try to get Apple to change course. The author suggesting that indicates a total lack of comprehension to Apple’s plan and purpose/intention. Calling for people to ask Apple to change this is like politely asking Opioid manufacturers to stop killing people. It’s profit. It has nothing to do with what’s best for the consumer. My main point of the comment was not to explain the subtext of the article. It was to explain that the article just didn’t need to be written, and won’t change anything.
      • malermeister 4y ago
        The audience isn't really Apple. It's regulators.
• boesboes 4y ago
  Who uses sms anymore these days? I tried to go back to a non-smart phone, but it was impossible due to not having whatsapp. That might be a 'local' thing though, not sure. Anyway, they should just release imessage for android; that would piss off meta too, which is a win in my book ;)
  • r2_pilot 4y ago
    I use and prefer that others use SMS for messaging me. I do have other communication apps, but by far and away SMS is my daily driver.
  • pjmlp 4y ago
    Plenty of people in Europe with our pre-pay SIM cards, having like 5 000 free SMS per month, minimum.
    • tinus_hn 4y ago
      I have infinite free SMS per month and I uses less than 1 a month. In Europe everyone uses WhatsApp.
      • mrweasel 4y ago
        > In Europe everyone uses WhatsApp. That's a bit of an overstatement and really depend on who you ask. I'd say that no-one uses WhatsApp. I know exactly two people who uses WhatsApp, but that also not representative of their actual marketshare.
        • tinus_hn 4y ago
          https://www.similarweb.com/corp/blog/research/market-research/worldwide-messaging-apps/ https://www.similarweb.com/corp/blog/research/market-researc... I see that it’s more limited to Western Europe but it really is dominant in a lot of markets. But that’s not really the point, the point is that also in the markets where the network effect causes the majority of people to use Telegram, Viber or Facebook Messenger, they’re mostly not using SMS, because even if it is free, a messenger service is better.
• obnauticus 4y ago
  I would agree more if the RCS standard wasn’t also hot garbage… I would encourage anyone who is curious to read more about it. It’s taken so long to gain traction that it has also become somewhat legacy. Also, it still requires a carrier sponsored phone plan? How is this “modern” in comparison to say every other carrier agnostic messaging app in existence? Also this: https://twitter.com/RonAmadeo/status/1480679515298934786 https://twitter.com/RonAmadeo/status/1480679515298934786
  • a2tech 4y ago
    No one really wants to understand it, they just want to complain that Apple doesn't support it
  • lostgame 4y ago
    I miss XMPP :(
    • thiht 4y ago
      XMPP sucked, you guys have to stop bringing it out over and over again. Not having a common experience between clients because of that stupid « X » sucked. There’s an impossible to solve mismatch between XEPs supported by the clients and the servers. XMPP is dead for reason, stop trying to bring it back
      • MattJ100 4y ago
        Because of the "stupid X", modern XMPP supports far more than it used to, and isn't stuck in the past like email and SMS. There is a mismatch between iMessage (Apple) and RCS (Google's flavour of the month). To the point where there is almost no sensible interoperability between the two. All XMPP does is provide answers to "If I want to implement feature X, how should that look on the wire". Just as the XMPP Standards Foundation annually publishes the recommended baseline feature sets for XMPP clients, it wouldn't be hard for Apple and Google to follow that or (more likely) agree on their own baseline for interoperability between the two ecosystems. As I always say when this comes up: the wire protocol is of least concern - it's not the reason these businesses don't prioritize interoperability. No protocol engineering can magically fix that.
• lern_too_spel 4y ago
  It's also time for Google to fix texting. Google Voice still doesn't support RCS despite people asking for it for many years. It would be great if someone just copied this web page and filled in Google and Google Voice everywhere it talks about Apple and iMessage, but I get the feeling that Google doesn't even care how embarrassing it is.
  • ocdtrekkie 4y ago
    It's more embarrassing than that: For most of the time I used Google Voice, it couldn't even forward MMS. I used Google Voice as my primary number for years, and I had to tell people that I couldn't receive group texts or pictures, which always got me weird puzzled looks. And of course, now they've removed SMS forwarding entirely, and basically completely made the service useless/redundant. I'm glad I ported my main number out years ago.
    • bckygldstn 4y ago
      When I stopped using Google Voice a couple of years ago I still couldn't receive group photos, would only receive 50% of group texts, and (Swedish) accented letters were each replaced by a seemingly random selection of 1-4 ascii characters. Such a mess, I wish I'd never signed up.
• jonathan_oberg 4y ago
  more like, it's time to kill texting. how many times can we attempt to patch new features on top of a protocol that was never intended for those purposes and is fundamentally insecure.
• otterley 4y ago
  Apple, pointing to all the happy children in the iMessage pool: "nah, we good, thanks"
  • kelnos 4y ago
    Which is why regulation needs to step in. The "free" market has failed. > happy children Are they, though? Sure, if you're an iPhone user and everyone you know is an iPhone user, things are great. But once one person uses Android (or, god forbid, a feature phone), your experience gets much worse. No more E2EE, no more read receipts, no more typing notifications, no more reliable delivery and message ordering, no more sending videos at a watchable resolution...
    • otterley 4y ago
      Anyone who cares about communicating with Android devices uses WhatsApp. This is a non problem for 99.99% of the population. Google’s just complaining about sour grapes since they can’t compete.
• sunsetandlabrea 4y ago
  This is pretty disingenuous I think. Other than Android who is using RCS? Why can't I message between WhatsApp and an RCS client. Or any other chat technology, how about Google Chat to RCS, or Slack to RCS, or anything else. Their examples for 'the modern standard adopted by most of the mobile world': Motorola, OnePlus, Google Pixel, Samsung, Snapdragon are all providers of Android phones, so clearly they would use the default Android messaging service. I have a few folk (mostly family) who uses Apple messaging, everyone else seems to be on WhatsApp.
  • ocdtrekkie 4y ago
    It's no different than half a dozen web "standards" Google invented like Web Serial, WebUSB, Web MIDI, etc. Google implemented it on their monopoly platform, and then declared it a "standard" and started getting their staff to start trying to shame everyone else for not adopting it as such.
    • simonjgreen 4y ago
      Actually it came from the GSMA https://www.gsma.com/futurenetworks/rcs/ https://www.gsma.com/futurenetworks/rcs/
  • kramerger 4y ago
    > Other than Android who is using RCS? Don't forget Android has over 80% world-wide market share.
    • sunsetandlabrea 4y ago
      This is like saying Windows is the standard operating system. My point still stands they are saying adopt our technology, but being disingenuous by calling it a standard. Besides that how many people are using WhatsApp instead on both iPhone and Android.
      • kramerger 4y ago
        No, it is not. The RCS standards are managed by the GSMA. It is supported by many companies, one of which is Google.
• throwayawya11 4y ago
  Maybe Google should enable push notification support again for Mail.app Gmail users too.
  • kitsunesoba 4y ago
    Or even just make Gmail’s IMAP support properly spec compliant instead of requiring third party clients to hack around its nonstandard behaviors.
    • AnonHP 4y ago
      Could you expand on the non-standard behaviors? Long ago I noticed that using tags in Gmail causes a mess because they seem to appear as folders on an IMAP client. I’d like to know what other issues exist with respect to its IMAP implementation.
    • jeroenhd 4y ago
      AFAIK, Gmail's IMAP uses OAUTH2 authentication through SASL (RFC7628). Legacy email clients don't implement that RFC, but it's far from a hack.
  • staticfish 4y ago
    I'm pretty sure last time I checked, Gmail supported IMAP's IDLE[1] extension just fine. I get instant notifications on Mail.app. [1]https://samjohnston.org/2008/07/18/proof-gmail-imap-gimap-supports-imap-idle/ https://samjohnston.org/2008/07/18/proof-gmail-imap-gimap-su...
• willio58 4y ago
  From what I’m seeing RCS just isn’t a true solution. Apple and Google should come together to create a standard outside of the carriers.
  • kitsunesoba 4y ago
    Absolutely agree. Carriers have no rightful place in the discussion, they’re dumb data pipes and shouldn’t be able to nickel and dime customers on messaging quotas and features, as RCS is designed to allow.
    • mongol 4y ago
      Not so sure about that. We still call these devices "phones", with the expectation that any phone in the world can call any phone number in the world. With no other information than a phone number, you need to involve the carriers to deliver a message texted to an arbitrary phone number. That is why Apple need to fallback to SMS. They have no other means to deliver the message. If Apple and Google teams up without carriers, they still don't have access to the full, true phone number database that carriers maintain.
      • mynameisvlad 4y ago
        Why, exactly, would Apple and Google not be able to fallback to SMS? Without involving carriers at all? It's not like there's any real benefit to having the carriers in that conversation, you can already text from either device just fine. That would continue into the future.
        • deleted 4y ago
          [deleted]
        • mongol 4y ago
          SMS is not transferred over the internet. It is transferred over a telecoms network. Only the carriers can deliver a SMS message. I guess it is possible to deliver a message over the internet to a SMS gateway somewhere, but as SMS is telecoms technology, only internet is not enough.
• cruano 4y ago
  > android.com I'm sure they are not biased at all
• KerrAvon 4y ago
  I mean, there are many people who would prefer an iPhone if you could only run Android on it -- including, apparently, the European Commission. But Apple doesn't make commodity hardware.
• Daunk 4y ago
  I haven't called a "normal" phone call or used SMS/MMS in many many years. Everyone I know (or care about rather) uses Telegram, and it's been great for us all.
  • bagacrap 4y ago
    that's terrific, but if telegram were the universal standard used for 95%+ of messaging then Google wouldn't bother with this effort.
    • fernandotakai 4y ago
      at least where i live, whatsapp is the defacto messaging platform -- i don't know a single person that doesn't have it, to the point where people won't call you, they just assume you have it so they just send you a message.
  • Tagbert 4y ago
    Telegram? Never heard of it. Messaging currently requires you and the people you are communicating with to agree on a platform. If all you use is Telegraph, then you are not communicating with those who don't.
• newaccount2021 4y ago
  pretty rich coming from Google who has been bungling its own messaging ecosystem for years
• drcongo 4y ago
  This is one of the funniest things I've seen in a long time. The company that has had 47 different messaging apps and changes them weekly trying to lecture the company that nailed it first time. Grow up Google.
  • ypeterholmes 4y ago
    But isn't the request for a cross platform standard? Sure Apple got their own internal standard right, but the experience across platforms still matters.
    • drcongo 4y ago
      Doesn't matter to me, I have an iPhone. But regardless of personal experience, Google has tried and failed endlessly to make a not-shit messaging app for Android, and has now seemingly given up and adopted a terrible protocol, and is crowing about it like they're the saviour of messaging. They're not, they've just given up trying.
      • blooalien 4y ago
        > "Google has tried and failed endlessly to make a not-shit messaging app for Android" … Sadly, some would say that they've tried and succeeded multiple times to make a "not-shit messaging app for Android" and then promptly murdered each success just as it became popular. > … "and has now seemingly given up and adopted a terrible protocol, and is crowing about it like they're the saviour of messaging." Yeah, this seems to be pretty much the "standard model" for most "tech giants" these days. :( > … "They're not, they've just given up trying." On so many levels beyond just messaging. :(
      • garciasn 4y ago
        Exactly. They've positioned this as creating problems for iOS users; however, all of these items are frustrating for Android users, not the other way around. They're preaching to the wrong choir.
        • 4y ago
• systemz 4y ago
  Looks like Google started to think about EU's DSA / DMA compliance and created this article to have proof to EU commission "look, we tried but they refused!"
• ocdtrekkie 4y ago
  Another fun one to point out: Google doesn't just want expanded RCS support because they have a monopoly on all the non-iMessage client devices, but they also run one of the largest providers of the data services for carriers to support RCS as well: https://jibe.google.com/jibe-platform/ https://jibe.google.com/jibe-platform/ Yet another angle on the Google vertical monopoly, and another reason Apple should stay very far away from RCS to protect user privacy.
• aquanext 4y ago
  I use an iPhone and have never experienced any of these issues with blurriness. Do they have specific examples? As others have said, I think I'm good with the way things are right now.
  • thomasahle 4y ago
    Ask a friend with an Android to text you a video, and see if it looks sharp or blurry. Using RCS as fall back would literally change nothing for you, except better quality conversations with Android users.
• __derek__ 4y ago
  First, Apple shaming Microsoft. Then, Microsoft shaming Google. Now, Google shaming Apple. > missing read receipts and typing indicators Life is better without both of these. > no texting over Wi-Fi This claim was odd. I visited Europe a few months ago and definitely sent/received SMS over wifi using my iPhone. > When people with iPhones and Android phones text each other, Apple relies on SMS and MMS, outdated systems which do not always support texting over wi-fi. That means if you don’t have a cellular network connection, depending on your carrier and situation, you may not be able to send and receive texts. Oh, so the claim was deliberately misleading. That's not a good way to build trust.
  • egwynn 4y ago
    > definitely sent/received SMS over wifi using my iPhone Are you certain? From what I understand about how SMS works, I don’t see how that’s possible. Apple’s own docs also appear to suggest that SMS-over-WiFi won’t work: https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT207006 https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT207006
    • frizlab 4y ago
      Most operators do cellular over wifi now (because 4G/5G sucks indoor). Not all of them though.
      • egwynn 4y ago
        I’m curious about how this works, can you link me someplace where I can read more about it? I tried searching for “cellular over wifi” but wasn’t about to find anything promising. EDIT: I searched harder and found “VoWiFi”. It looks like this can support SMS and is supported by iOS. TIL.
        • __derek__ 4y ago
          Bingo. My carrier offers it as Wifi Calling. It worked surprisingly well.
        • 4y ago
• xnx 4y ago
  I'm all for standards, but this is mainly sour grapes by Google. If they hadn't shot themselves in the foot dozens of times with messaging they could've dominated using the head start they had with Google Talk. Google should put all messages from iPhone users in comic sans.
  • ElijahLynn 4y ago
    This is sour grapes for users. Google doesn't own the RCS standard, fwiw. I still use SMS/MMS and it is really, really nice when another user is using RCS because modern messaging features actually work. I can send long voice memos/song ideas to others, high resolution photos, see if a message was read etc. RCS is a huge upgrade, and really has nothing to do with Google.
  • hbn 4y ago
    They had a surefire strategy starting in 2013 when they added SMS integration to Hangouts and made it a default-installed app on all Androids. It was tied to your Google account so most people (and basically all Android users) already had an account. It was pre-installed, meaning you didn't need to pitch people to install another app, which is usually a big ask. Instead you say "hey open this app you already have installed, we can chat here and it's better, and you can text all your other contacts who don't have it too." It had video calling too, basically all you needed. But then Allo and Duo came along. Remember Allo? Me neither! It was Hangouts' death sentence anyway! And now Duo is being rebranded/merged into Meet for some reason. Get out of the Google ecosystem wherever you can. They're only getting worse.
    • xmonkee 4y ago
      I still remember the glory that was Google Talk back in 2005-ish. And you could connect to it from other xmpp networks. It's insane to me that the current google chat app (a neglected box within gmail) is WAYYY worse than it was almost 20 years ago.
  • worthless-trash 4y ago
    This is genius.
• altairprime 4y ago
  Most businesses, consumers, and developers universally continue to ignore the primary reason that iMessage is a closed platform, rather than an app on every platform as iTunes is: Apple is using device serial numbers for anti-spam, supported by a fully-authenticated hardware and software stack that does not allow user modification. This permits Apple to simply “console ban” any Apple device that spams on iMessage. This makes it prohibitively expensive to send spam over iMessage. They have been doing so since iMessage was launched. Android offers no such attestation that I’m aware of. Windows, on Pluton, could offer this attestation securely — and that is a key deliverable of Pluton. It’s easy, then, to predict what Apple’s first non-Apple platform will be: Microsoft Windows 12, only if secure-booted, with Pluton-signed attestation that the kernel is unmodified. And it’s easy to predict how Apple will implement anti-spam: by applying “console” bans to specific Pluton chips by their serial number. If Android wants to join the party, then Android phone builders need to implement secure boot with hardware-signed attestation of non-rooted-ness, in the style of Apple T2 + macOS or Microsoft Pluton + Secure Boot. Until then, Apple iMessage will remain single platform. (I recognize that this is extremely unpalatable to device hackers, but the same freedom to modify an OS kernel that hackers desire is also the freedom to spam all users, as we have seen repeatedly with all messaging software platforms operated without hardware-backed attestation for the past thirty years — including email, Jabber, and HN itself.) (No, I do not work at Apple.)
  • upbeat_general 4y ago
    This is just wrong because as others have pointed out, you can have a fully virtualized macOS environment with no secure boot or any kind and iMessage will run just fine. Also, since basically every device that receives message also receives sms, isn’t this irrelevant?
  • gofreddygo 4y ago
    So the reason to track and identify every app on every device and have a switch to remotely brick it is to reduce spam ? My BS detectors just tripped. Would you be ok if your home had the same "security" features? Say BigCo home builders install a front door, sensors, cameras and scanners in your home that allow them to monitor track and remotely lock you out of your home, your water and power supply ? Their reason? ... so that they can shutdown "bad neighbors" and keep the neighborhood "clean". And remember there's no fkin way you can get rid of those scanners, cameras and other control mechanisms. But ya'know they gave you a piece of paper that says "we respect your privacy" with BigCo logo on it ? I don't get why Apple, MS or anyone should be able to get away with this.
• nneonneo 4y ago
  Right now Apple is facing quite a lot of regulation in various places to open up their platform: open up app loading, open up repairs, etc. It’s hard not to imagine this being yet another salvo in forcing Apple to open up their messaging platform (and it aligns with recent regulatory efforts). Except, unlike app stores and repairs, the standard being pushed here, RCS, is not a good solution by comparison. It’s locked to carriers, who have different and inconsistent implementations, rather than being tied to an identity like iMessage. It’ll be a shame if Apple is forced to adopt an inferior standard here…
  • lern_too_spel 4y ago
    This is about RCS vs. SMS. Apple and Google support SMS as a cross-platform standard. They should support RCS, which is superior.
  • jeroenhd 4y ago
    Apple will probably be forced to open up their iMessage implementation once the Digital Markets Act will be adopted, forcing large messenger companies to make their messaging services interoperable. If they're smart, they work together with Google and other large messenger providers to form some sort of secure standard. If they keep being stubborn, they'll be forced to either stop selling iMessage in Europe or accept consequences to their technology much worse than cooperation. I'm no fan of breaking E2EE for interoperation, but since none of the big market players seem interested in working together, I think this will be unavoidable. It's a shame, really, that it had to come to regulation to get the market to work in the users' favour. This probably won't matter to users outside the EU but big changes are coming over here.
• deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
• firloop 4y ago
  Feels like sort of a non issue, even the bottom of the page pushes people to apps like Whatsapp/Signal. If Google wants better iPhone messaging - can’t it just ship its solution in the App Store? Not really sure why Apple must update iMessage for Google to get what it wants. I personally love iMessage and use it and Signal primarily - I don’t like the idea of Google dictating its feature set, especially considering its horrible messaging track record.
  • bagacrap 4y ago
    No, Google isn't trying to ship another messaging app. It's trying to improve the interoperability of Android and iPhone when using phone number texting. Your experience in iMessage when texting with an Android user would be improved.
    • meepmorp 4y ago
      I have an iPhone and friends with android. I don't have any problems texting them, nor they me. At most, this seems to be a problem for android users, and I'm skeptical because I've never really had anyone I actually know complain. Maybe we're just lucky?
    • jonathankoren 4y ago
      It's about the color of the messages. https://www.wsj.com/articles/why-apples-imessage-is-winning-teens-dread-the-green-text-bubble-11641618009 https://www.wsj.com/articles/why-apples-imessage-is-winning-...
• rhacker 4y ago
  Apple connect to our messaging platform voice, i mean messages i mean allo i mean duo i mean hangouts i mean...
  • tick_tock_tick 4y ago
    Funny thing is the EU doesn't give a fuck and is going to force them.
    • malermeister 4y ago
      Yeah this is gonna happen soon anyways. Not because of some Google website, but because of the Digital Markets Act.
    • rootusrootus 4y ago
      I find it interesting how many HN'ers now think bureaucratic control of technology is a Good Thing(tm).
      • jabbany 4y ago
        I find it interesting how many HN'ers now don't think consumer protection is a good thing. (Actually, in hindsight it isn't that surprising. Tech companies only make the money they do because of the lack of consumer protections... so definitely in most HN'ers interest to keep the status quo.
        • rootusrootus 4y ago
          European legislators are why I now have a cookie banner on every website I visit. It is hard to be enthusiastic for more of that. I could support basic antitrust actions that actually promote competition, but when it gets into actually writing technical requirements, the outcome seems less than ideal.
          • ryandrake 4y ago
            Web developers’ deciding to use cookies, knowing the regulation exists, is why you now have a cookie banner on every website you visit.
• ElijahLynn 4y ago
  Really hopeful this is the push needed to get RCS mainstream. I use RCS on Android a bunch, and when the other user has it working it is amazing!!!
• victorbstan 4y ago
  Adroid.com not biased
• blinkingled 4y ago
  > iPhones make texts with Android phones difficult to read, by using white text on a bright green background. Wow. I can't really come up with anything creative to blame Google for this one. Whatever you want to say about Google's messaging mess and RCS - Apple seems to go out of their way to make it inconvenient to text with Android users. Also it doesn't sound like Google's asking Apple to give up iMessage - just that they use RCS instead of SMS/MMS to talk to Android users. Not an unreasonable ask given RCS is likely to be a widely adopted standard and an non-trivial improvement over SMS. Edit: Color aside, the read receipts, MMS quality, Wifi send etc all seem worth fixing with RCS.
  • wincy 4y ago
    What? I don't even notice the difference in color except that I know not to use the tapback stuff when I'm texting an Android user. Does the green on white actually bother anyone? This seems like grasping at straws to me.
    • dymk 4y ago
      I've never heard this issue ever raised by anyone in real life. I've only seen it brought up in internet tiffs about how Apple is using green message bubbles to "shame" non-Apple users. Which is similarly straw-graspy.
      • kelnos 4y ago
        Given how cruel and capricious children tend to be, it would not surprise me in the least that iPhone-using US teenagers ostracize peers with Android devices because of the green bubbles.
        • XorNot 4y ago
          While it doesn't surprise me, if it wasn't one thing it would probably be another. Conversely if you're a parent with a distraught teenager being teased about this, I imagine that's cold comfort.
        • 4y ago
• radiojasper 4y ago
  I still don't get why people use SMS/MMS anyway? I've been using WhatsApp for ages now and so does everybody else in my country - and every country I've been in, apart from China and Japan. My friend who's from the US once said "I've paid for those text messages, so I'm going to use them!" But if I send him a text from Europe to the US, I pay 1 damn euro per delivered text. WhatsApp is free! Is there any viable reason why Apple users use SMS so much?
  • lotsofpulp 4y ago
    There are many people in the US who have no international contacts, and so they grew up using only the default messaging app. And they are not sufficiently incentivized to install another app like WhatsApp. Between NYC/SF, I do not know a single person that does not use both iMessage and WhatsApp. But typically it is people who are not children of immigrants and whose social circles have no one outside the country that tend to not have WhatsApp.
  • themagician 4y ago
    Apple users don't use SMS—they use iMessage. It's seamless and automatic. All your contacts are automatically there as long as you have a phone number or email address which is an AppleID. It's so seamless most people don't even realize they are using it.
    • samwhiteUK 4y ago
      There you go talking about the US again and assuming it represents the whole world. You Americans are so bad for that.
  • stonemetal12 4y ago
    It comes preinstalled, works, is free. Why would I look for a different messaging app? What does WhatsApp do that the preinstalled, free, messaging app doesn't?
    • radiojasper 4y ago
• deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
• kelnos 4y ago
  I don't love RCS[0], but Apple implementing it (including the E2EE extensions) would strike a huge blow to messaging fragmentation immediately, at least in the US. Hell, Apple doesn't have to ditch iMessage; they just have to support RCS for messaging with Android users, or group messaging with mixed Android/iOS devices. I would also (grudgingly) accept an opening of the iMessage protocol so Google could implement it in the Android Messages app. Not ideal by any measure, and I figure Apple would never do this (and I suspect Google would hypocritically not want to do this anyway), but it would at least improve things. The thing that's sad overall is that the current state of affairs is just a result of an anti-consumer corporate pissing match. The only losers here are the users, both on iOS and Android. And meanwhile both Apple and Google get to tout the benefits of their preferred solution as if they're both the good guys, fighting for their users. When in reality they're merely fighting for their own market dominance. [0] Tying messaging to your carrier is just a continuation of the crappy SMS "portability" experience. Sure, most RCS backend implementations are currently provided by Google, but one thing I'd like to see would be the ability to select your RCS provider. Maybe others would crop up if this were an option, and if RCS were actually popular.
  • thomasahle 4y ago
    > the current state of affairs is just a result of an anti-consumer corporate pissing match. This would be true if Google didn't want to implement the iMessage protocol as you predict; but in the current state of affairs it's just Apple being anticompetitive.
    • kelnos 4y ago
      Has Google said that they'd implement iMessage if Apple were to open up the protocol/service? Given Google's history with messaging, I'd be surprised if they'd be so interested in doing this. More likely they'd prefer Apple just build a standalone iMessage app for Android. (And I feel like this option would be more palatable to Apple too, if the alternative is opening up the protocol to third parties.)
      • thomasahle 4y ago
• jes 4y ago
  I wish Apple would give me a way to filter junk SMS texts via a regexp or something, without needing a third-party app.
  • aaaaaaaaaaab 4y ago
    Settings → Messages → Filter Unknown Senders
    • jes 4y ago
      I appreciate your help. The reservation I have is that I still have to wade through a raft of shit when it comes to sorting out legitimate texts that wound up in Unknown Senders because they weren't in my Contacts. I would like more control over the filtering of incoming messages, without sending them off-device.
• deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
• LeoPanthera 4y ago
  > Texts from iPhones can’t always be sent to Android over Wi-Fi, leaving your messages unsent and convos hanging if you don’t have cell service. Yes they can? I have no cellular service at home but I have wifi, and my iPhone connects to "T-Mobile Wi-Fi" via my home internet. SMS messages are sent and received just fine.
  • throwaway67743 4y ago
    Assuming you have an operator that supports wifi calling and a phone that both supports it and is "whitelisted" (basically USA, Europe does not do such silly things)
    • tpush 4y ago
      > [...] (basically USA, Europe does not do such silly things) What? Europe has Wi-Fi Calling, too [0]. [0] https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT204040 https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT204040
      • throwaway67743 4y ago
        woosh - read the comment again, it clearly implied the US has a prominent idea of whitelisting "compatible" handsets (ie; those bought from the network because unlocked is a hilariously quaint idea) whereas in Europe, unlocked handsets are generally the default, since people don't like it and regulations prevent it for the most part anyway, in those cases it's just incompatible/old/awful implementations, rather than operators denying said features. But just in case: the quotes emphasised the act, the parenthesis referenced said nonsense with the target being the first mentioned (it could not possibly be interpreted any other way) as a result of the parent comment likely being from the US as T-Mobile outside of the US does not refer to itself as such, it's either what it became (ie; EE in the UK) or a regional variant.
        • DangitBobby 4y ago
          You really gotta dial down the smugness. It made your comment difficult to actually understand and so annoying that I didn't want to finish reading it. Take whoosh back to reddit, please.
• throwaway67743 4y ago
  The solution isn't RCS either, shoehorning yet another nonsense over a system designed to transmit operational messaging is absurd, just use proper rich media systems like the 10s of im platforms, or the reinvented wheels like matrix etc, it's in a similar vein to trying to add voice calls to IRC.
• Li7h 4y ago
  They couldn't even find a hi-res logo for WhatsApp on the bottom. [1] [1] https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/Jv09_Bj8cea5-_S6DdpoA_MolGoIj0qriTrmVKODDwZ_4ulJgrDqmOI6PIuhUj3amib6F6tXacNW1JB8ZXbHzjHXr54JUu_urd0199wXQjxC_Wn5ww=w157-rw-e365-v1 https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/Jv09_Bj8cea5-_S6DdpoA_MolG...
• hgsgm 4y ago
• vzaliva 4y ago
  Apple messaging is super annoying. I use Android phone but also have an iPad. Whenever I chat with someone on iPhone, is suddenly decides to route all messages via iMessage instead of SMS and I do not see them on my phone. You have to disable iMessage in iPad to avoid this.
  • isatty 4y ago
    I don’t see how this is a problem. If you want to use an inferior method then it should be opt out (like you are doing) instead of the other way around.
    • vzaliva 4y ago
      The opt-out is global. I could not keep using iMessage on iPad and SMS on Android as long as Apple account is associated with the same mobile phone number. Also, changing the mode of communication withot asking or informing users sounds like a bad idea. I send you SMS from my phone. You see it in your iMessage and type a reply and it goes back to my iPad.
• 1MachineElf 4y ago
  I hope the EU continues on it's legislative path to force Apple into playing nice.
• Asdrubalini 4y ago
  Side note: I wonder why they didn't put Telegram in the "Other messaging apps." section, instead of only Whatsapp and Signal.
  • sneak 4y ago
    WhatsApp and Signal are E2EE. Telegram is not.
• vzaliva 4y ago
  One way looking at it is that carrier job is only to provide data service. They should not be in the business of messaging. Users (and market) will chose to use whatever messaging service they want. This even applies to voice. I rather do Signal voice call than carrier voice call with most of my friends. Better quality, encryption, etc.
  • kelnos 4y ago
    I like this in theory, but in practice it is very useful to have a universal way to contact people that doesn't depend on both parties having the same proprietary[0] app installed. If I give someone my phone number (or email address, for that matter), I know they will be able to contact me without any more coordination required. That has a lot of value to me. If we eliminate phone numbers entirely (and thus SMS, MMS, and telco-mediated voice calling), we lose that ability. I do think that, in the future (perhaps not in our lifetimes) we'll do away with phone numbers, but only after there is another universal way to contact via messaging or voice that involves only sharing some sort of identifier, without any other setup required. [0] Yes, Signal is open source, but since they refuse to allow people to use modified clients, or build support for federation, they are a proprietary, closed system, just like WhatsApp or Telegram. It's just we can have more confidence in the privacy of our communications on Signal due to its open source nature.
    • sneak 4y ago
      Signal's APIs do not prohibit modified clients.
  • asdff 4y ago
    I think that is shortsighted because data service does not overlap cell service. Go into a grocery store and try and imessage a photo. If your stores are anything like mine it just won't work, until you defer to sending it via SMS, at which point it sends instantly no problem. At the end of the day I'm not paying for data service, I'm paying for data service plus cell service. I want cell service, it has benefits and is not replaced by data only service.
• ivoras 4y ago
  This is a US thing, right? Haven't received an SMS from a real person (in other words, all SMSes I get are 2FA etc) for, at least 5 years, maybe 10. Even people who use iPhones don't send SMSes, MMSes or anything as obsolete (including RCS). Everyone just seems to use WhatsApp and Telegram (or if they don't know any better, Viber). Locale: Central Europe. So, why would anyone stick to the obsolete stuff? Are there regions of the US which have cell phone signals but no Internet access?
  • rootusrootus 4y ago
    Network effect. SMS works everywhere, all phones support it out-of-the-box. WhatsApp is opt-in. Almost nobody I communicate with regularly has a WhatsApp account.
    • komali2 4y ago
      How do you SMS people without a USA phone number?
      • tedmiston 4y ago
        Social networks. But as other comments mentioned, the number of people I "text" with regularly without a U.S. phone number / the ability to send and receive SMS is very small.
      • mikebenfield 4y ago
        Most Americans have few or zero regular international contacts. The US is geographically huge and there are only two other nations within relatively reach. Personally I have one person in my contacts who's not in the US. This is someone I communicate with about twice a year, and we do indeed use WhatsApp for that.
      • Rebelgecko 4y ago
        For non-North American recipients from a North American phone number, you have to prefix with the country code[0]. So unnecessary if you're in the US and want to call Canada or Jamaica or wherever. But say you want to call someone with a UK phone number, you just send the SMS to +44-<their phone number>. [0]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_country_calling_codes https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_country_calling_codes
• deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
• QuarterReptile 4y ago
  Once upon a time, I couldn't see myself moving to an iPhone because of the limited options for ad blocking. Now that ad blocking on Brave iPhone presumably works, Apple's messaging behavior is the last thing that keeps me away. On the occasions when I get stuck in a group chat outside Signal and someone has an iPhone, it always seems to break the chats. Otherwise the iPhone mini seems like it would be a great option.
• sneak 4y ago
  This is spam for the Android operating system, nothing more. Google claiming that RCS includes end-to-end encryption here is misleading. Encryption got explicitly axed from the RCS spec because carriers don't like it. The end-to-end crypto they're talking about is a custom Google thing and not part of RCS. Friends don't let friends use unencrypted everyday communications. Reject RCS and reject Google platform marketing. PS: Note also that iMessage has a crypto backdoor maintained by Apple for the FBI; Google should not be encouraging iMessage to become more useful/popular, as this reduces privacy and makes people less safe.
  • giantrobot 4y ago
    > Note also that iMessage has a crypto backdoor maintained by Apple for the FBI Describing iMessage as having an encryption back door is disingenuous at best. There's no known encryption back doors in iMessage. As far as can be determined iMessage is fully E2EE. There is however a caveat that the unencrypted local messages backed up to iCloud can be turned over to LEAs/governments. This caveat holds for any unencrypted data synced to iCloud. It's no different than your e-mails sitting in your iCloud mail account. Disabling syncing of Messages with iCloud closes this hole.
    • sneak 4y ago
      > Disabling syncing of Messages with iCloud closes this hole. It does not. The people you iMessage with still have it turned on, because it is on by default, and Apple will get it from those devices instead.
      • giantrobot 4y ago
        Which is the same as any other E2EE system. Your OpSec is only as good as the worst OpSec as whoever you communicate with. Pretending this is an Apple issue is absurd.
        • sneak 4y ago
          This is also false! Signal stores messages and keys in iOS storage classes that do not leave the device and are not included in backups.
• alexklarjr 4y ago
  When it is time for Google to fix android?
• pwpw 4y ago
  This is such a weirdly US specific issue. It's hard to understand why people in this country refuse to adopt a data-based messaging service such as Signal or WhatsApp like the rest of the world has. Why are US citizens so set on having a terrible experience when messaging half of the population? How did other countries decide that using platform agnostic messaging services are better? I believe the UK has a similar split in Android/iOS users, yet they largely use WhatsApp. In a way, it feels perfectly inline with America. We use Imperial when everyone else uses Metric. We use Fahrenheit when everyone else uses Celsius. But in this case, it's not as if our government led us down this path. The problem was entirely created by our market of users. Ultimately, poor communication stifles society and innovation. It's in all of our best interests to improve the current situation. Sure, better alternatives such as Signal exist, but we will have to move mountains to convert everyone onto a new service. For now, I think it's best if we all apply pressure to Apple to adopt RCS. It's significantly better than where we are now, and that's a good thing.
  • TheRealPomax 4y ago
    Ah yes, whatsapp, that bastion of privacy, and not at all a messaging service that exists primarily for Meta to mine. If everyone was on Signal, sure, but if everyone's on Whatsapp, maybe not the kind of thing to go "why don't you just do this too, why are North Americans so backward?" for something owned by what is basically still just Facebook.
    • baby 4y ago
      Oh yes, let’s ignore the fact that whatsapp has end to end encryption
      • hot_gril 4y ago
        That doesn't mean a whole lot.
        • baby 4y ago
          If you don’t know what these words mean sure
• aaaaaaaaaaab 4y ago
  Ah, another "grassroots" initiative to adopt a "standard" (RCS) from Google! No thanks, I don't want this RCS crap on my phone. iMessage works seamlessly on my multiple phones, iPads, and Macs. Fuck off with that carrier lock-in trash.
  • simonjgreen 4y ago
    It's from GSMA https://www.gsma.com/futurenetworks/rcs/ https://www.gsma.com/futurenetworks/rcs/
    • aaaaaaaaaaab 4y ago
      Originally yes. Today it’s Google’s playground. Much like the WHATWG.
    • davidro80 4y ago
• balls187 4y ago
  Does Twilio support RCS?
  • simonjgreen 4y ago
    Yes. https://www.twilio.com/learn/call-and-text-marketing/what-is-rcs-messaging https://www.twilio.com/learn/call-and-text-marketing/what-is...
    • tlogan 4y ago
      Not anymore: they say “The RCS Business Messaging Developer Preview is currently paused”.
• vonwoodson 4y ago
  android(dot)com says Apple product bad! Shocking!
• seydor 4y ago
  This is not very smart, as apple doesn't do such things unless coerced by law. Instead , android should drop/cripple iphone support until they adopt RCS
  • thomasahle 4y ago
    The problem is that in the markets that use SMS and iMessage heavily (the US) Android has the minority. In general minority players have to go for interoperability, while majority players can try to force everyone else out of the market.
• deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
• listless 4y ago
  That video reminds me of the “I’m a Mac” ads in that it does a great job of making Apple look dated and out of touch. I love good marketing.
• syntaxing 4y ago
  Contrary to everyone complaining, I would argue fragmentation is part of the innovation process. FireWire vs USB, Blu-ray vs HD-DVD etc. Whoever the market chooses is the winner and survivor. No one needs to “fix” anything. You just make a product that people will buy to survive.
• tannhaeuser 4y ago
  When considering Google pushing for RCS, keep in mind Google has sabotaged MMS in Android for 10+ years due to the convenient Stagefreight bug. MMS being a practical and once widely used (for ringtones and such) content distribution channel with carrier billing out of Google's reach and ever increasing lust for sensor data that can be used for ad targeting. Think sending literature, reports, music for pennies (with greedy telcos kept in check in a regulated market).
• zaps 4y ago
  “RCS is the modern standard adopted by most of the mobile world…” (logos of Motorola, Samsung, OnePlus, Google Pixel, Snapdragon) So…. Android then.
  • kelnos 4y ago
    This may not be true in the US, but in the "mobile world", Android is "most of".
• j1elo 4y ago
  EDIT: ok I read other comments and learned that it's mostly a US-specific, cultural thing. I'm impressed that people in the US are still sending SMS, to be honest. Even with cheapest or free SMS, more modern chat apps became mainstream long ago in Europe, (probably) because they allowed to send photos and videos seamlessly, and messages didn't have length limitations. Original message follows: Could someone explain what this is about? The page complains that pictures or videos are poor quality on SMS/MMS, and they lack encryption, like if those were relevant amd not a thing from the 90's. Also I am reading things like "Since I'm on Android, I'm stuck using SMS a lot, since most people I know have iPhones", and that adds to my confusion. I guess the issue is that I simply cannot start to understand who would in today's context use SMS to chat. I too use Android and have a lot of friends with iPhones... we just send encrypted, good-enough quality pictures with whatsapp, telegram, or what have you. SMS or other cellular-based services are a thing of the past that nobody would use. So what's all the fuss about?
  • sour-taste 4y ago
    If you friends an family use text you will too. It's simple network effects.
• NetOpWibby 4y ago
  It's time for Google to fix browsing. It's tine for Google to fix search.
• partiallypro 4y ago
  Surprised the awful videos from platform to platform aren't highlighted more in the comments here. It's cleary Apple nerfing the video to make it look bad. The site's top video goes over it. It's awful.
  • latexr 4y ago
    > It's cleary Apple nerfing the video to make it look bad. The site itself contradicts that claim. From the FAQ (emphasis added): > When people with iPhones and Android phones text each other, Apple relies on SMS and MMS, outdated systems that cannot support large media files. That means photos and videos are often compressed and come through blurry. The severity varies by location and carrier based on compression and size limits.
    • thomasahle 4y ago
      > Apple relies on SMS and MMS This is the whole point. Apple chooses to fall back to an outdated system instead of one that supports higher quality media files. And that's just one of the ways they provide a worse quality experience for everyone involved in a cross platform group chat. There is really no reason for them to do that, except to force people onto Apple if they want to be part of group conversations with most Americans.
      • latexr 4y ago
        > This is the whole point. It’s the point of the website but is not the point the person I replied to made. I replied to what I quoted, not the article.
        • partiallypro 4y ago
          Nothing you said contradicted my point. Apple forces SMS which nerfs videos, they choose that on purpose to inconvenience Android users. Android to Android works perfectly because they aren't using SMS, they are using RCS.
• blibble 4y ago
  so last month Google finally shut down their gtalk XMPP gateway talk about hypocrisy
• yubiox 4y ago
  It seems like apple phones ruin photo and video quality when messaging with android too, even over third party apps like whatsapp and signal. Do they think I will run out and buy an apple phone so this doesn't happen?
  • Gigachad 4y ago
    That's the apps themselves compressing the shit out of media to save on costs. Apps have full ability to get lossless media out and send it to anyone.
• tlogan 4y ago
  Is RCS supported by twilio?
• simonjgreen 4y ago
  SMS to me is solely the channel for machines to force a bad MFA implementation on me and couriers to tell me something is on the way/nearly there/delivered. All person to person comms, without exception, iPhone or Android users, is via WhatsApp. Anecdata from UK.
  • baby 4y ago
    Same, from the US
    • nr2x 4y ago
      Really? iMessage is very much used in the USA.
      • baby 4y ago
        I guess not where I’ve lived (chicago, sf)
  • pineconewarrior 4y ago
    I agree that SMS is obsolete, but I will not so willingly jump to another zuckerberg platform
  • Andrex 4y ago
    I far, far prefer a protocol over Zuckerware, but to each their own.
  • benknight87 4y ago
    If the current dumb phone comeback continues, SMS won't be going anywhere any time soon
  • raxxorraxor 4y ago
    I think the argument about SMS being insecure is very real but exaggerated. We send password reset with capability URLs through non encrypted mail. Sure, the channel is most likely encrypted but anyone at mail service providers could easily take over a massive amount of accounts. Although the user would notice at least. Sure, there are tools to intercept SMS without the user noticing, but as a second factor an attacker still doesn't have access to other factors. The successor RCS has the problem that users cannot reset the password. If you are compromised you need to urgently contact your ISP.
• throwaway220810 4y ago
• tony-allan 4y ago
  Two systems are suboptimal for developers. It would be great if Apple and Google could get their heads together and find a way to interoperate. I don't mind the bubble colour... I'm OK with an Apple colour, Google colour, and an interoperable colour. It would be useful to signal what features might be available with each technology. What I would really like is for the interoperable solution to have a common API so I can programmatically sent a message to anyone (at least the two main players with an option for other phone makers — and also apps like Telegram — to join).
  • fbanon 4y ago
    >What I would really like is for the interoperable solution to have a common API so I can programmatically sent a message to anyone No thanks, we don't want your spam.
    • tony-allan 4y ago
      Doesn't fix SPAM but I can still dream of a better environment.
• baby 4y ago
  I always thought iMessage was the dumbest thing. I’m abroad, I try to iMessage someone because I know it’s going to be free: oops, it downgrade to text and I end up paying. Or I’m on a bad wifi connection: oops, I will not use your signal and just block. In any case everybody I know uses whatsapp so I don’t think it’s a huge deal. Texts are for spams or restaurant waiting lists.
  • deleted 4y ago
    [deleted]
  • fancyham 4y ago
    Then disable ‘send as SMS if iMessage fails'. There’s a toggle for it.
    • baby 4y ago
      I just use whatsapp instead
• kart23 4y ago
  I and a ton of other kids switched to iphones in HS purely because of imessage. Google knows how big a lock-in factor it is. the wsj article from a while ago is actually the truth: group chats are terrible, mms just doesn't work, etc. https://www.wsj.com/articles/why-apples-imessage-is-winning-teens-dread-the-green-text-bubble-11641618009 https://www.wsj.com/articles/why-apples-imessage-is-winning-...
  • smoldesu 4y ago
    Maybe deep down, a lot of people on HN did too but won't admit it. Not calling anyone out, but I know how the crowd around here values 'networking' and the vanity associated with it.
    • broodbucket 4y ago
      Also just because the bubble vanity isn't an issue in your circles, doesn't mean it isn't an issue in other circles. Whether it's a stupid issue or not is irrelevant, it seems to be a real thing in many people's lives
• hot_gril 4y ago
  I agree that Apple is annoying about this, but it's silly for Android (.com?) to complain that texting _in general_ is broken because of Apple. They've got clearly the larger market share worldwide, and wherever Android is more popular, people are on WhatsApp instead of SMS anyway. Even a group chat purely between US Android users tends to be carried out on Facebook Messenger, not SMS, I guess cause SMS sucks even on Android.
• pipeline_peak 4y ago
  They tried so hard to make it look like a political statement. And ofc the tongue and cheek references came off as spiteful instead of productive in convincing Apple. They don’t care, they want to make it inconvenient so we’ll all jump aboard the iShip. Until the bold image that Job’s left wears if in 30 years (give or take?) they’ll get away with it along with lightening ports and every other mediocre capitalization that makes them reminiscent of their previous cutting edge former self. Back then, their proprietarization at the very least helped drew their brand image. Google pretending to be good guys as if there was any other major player they’d be helping out in this campaign was funny though.
• tristor 4y ago
  This is a complete non-issue. I have no idea why people are complaining about this, except as another way in which Android users are trying to force their ecosystem choices on everyone else. The majority of people globally don't even use built-in messengers, they use WhatsApp or a similar application, most of which uses similar stylistic design choices as Apple uses for SMS, so it's hardly an issue. I'm well aware that high schoolers get bullied for being poor and not being able to afford an iPhone. High schoolers were getting bullied for being poor and not being able to afford fancy clothes before cell phones were even a thing, and prior to smartphones were bullied for being poor and not being able to afford pagers or a cell phone (or a car, or ... or ...). High schoolers are assholes and will find some excuse to torment each other regardless of what aesthetic and design choices somebody in Apple's UX team makes for their built-in messaging app. This is a massive nothingburger and I honestly have no idea why the media gives this any credence other than the shift of the media generally towards being anti-tech.
  • collsni 4y ago
    lol
  • refulgentis 4y ago
    I really appreciated this comment. It subverted my expectations by inverting the situation: its not Apple's phone being locked to either Apple's messaging service or the texting standard from 1997, its people forcing Apple to implement a more modern standard.
  • pipeline_peak 4y ago
    The second the guy in the video complained about Android users getting blamed as if it were an actual problem I questioned the age demographic they were targeting.
  • thomasahle 4y ago
    > regardless of what aesthetic and design choices somebody in Apple's UX team makes for their built-in messaging app It's not about aesthetic design, and it's not just about high schoolers. Lots of grown up Apple users don't like adding Android users to their group chats, because falling back to MMS degrades the messaging experience for everyone. Things like images sending in low enough resolution to be useless. As a European moving to the US, I can attest how hard it is to get Apple users to switch their group chats to WhatsApp/Facebook/Signal. I don't think I'm in a single such group that isn't majority non-Americans. You can say Apple doesn't need to care about Android users being socially isolated. But some Apple users might like an easier way to include their non-Apple friends.
• collsni 4y ago
  These comments are a firestorm. It would be nice for apple to adobt the rcs standard, would benefit native communications.
  • Gigachad 4y ago
    Why are "native" communications worth saving? Personally I prefer the current state where you can use whatever internet based platform you want and all these platforms are free to implement new features without spending decades trying to negotiate a new version between vendors and carriers. RCS right now is already and outdated and substandard platform.
• ROARosen 4y ago
  While they might sound convincing that they might mean this for everyone's good (and it might be good for everyone, this is typical of Google in GCP and elsewhere trying to force more modern experiences because "they know better" than everyone unwilling to upgrade their platform.
• turtlebits 4y ago
  1. There's nothing wrong with SMS, it's just text 2. From the article - "It’s supported by most carriers". Unless it can be used everywhere, it doesn't sound like a replacement for SMS.
• deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
• wyager 4y ago
  RCS has no E2E encryption. Pass. Apple does need to fix messaging, but this isn't the way.
• O__________O 4y ago
  Neither SMS, nor RCS, have built-in end-to-end encryption — and both should die a quick and timely death. iMessage to use end-to-end encryption, but it’s not open, and should also die. What messaging needs is an open modern standards, nothing more, nothing less.
  • DoctorOW 4y ago
    RCS on Signal/Android does: https://www.gstatic.com/messages/papers/messages_e2ee.pdf https://www.gstatic.com/messages/papers/messages_e2ee.pdf
    • O__________O 4y ago
      Hence why I said “not built in” — also per the document, “all RCS chat messages will be E2EE if both clients have the latest version of Messages” which means if an attacker with enough resources blocked the target end-point and inserted a device without the add-on E2EE encryption, sounds like the messages would be sent in the clear, which to me is not end-to-end encryption; that is unless both parties get an alert the messages will be sent in the clear, preferably before they are, using prior method a nation state or telecommunications company at their order could likely easily read all the messages and forward them on without either party knowing. Hence, SMS & RCS need to die. Am I missing something? PS- Assuming that document is by Google, but unclear, what is the source that links to it?
• zeusk 4y ago
  As someone who worked around Windows Phone and had to deal with Google's unwillingness to support other eco systems; Pound sand android.
  • broodbucket 4y ago
    Companies will always act in their own best interest, that doesn't mean you should let spite get in the way of what would be a positive change for consumers. Google sucks. Apple sucks. Microsoft sucks. Unifying a broken ecosystem is a net positive regardless of which entity happens to be championing it
    • zeusk 4y ago
      Precisely why apple is acting in their best interest. I don't want RCS or anything to do with Google on my phone.
  • deleted 4y ago
    [deleted]
• tonymet 4y ago
  RCS rollout has been a mess with a poor UX , unclear consent etc. Apple definitely doesn't want to inconvenience users with that garbage. There are tons of great cross-device messaging apps e.g. Whatsapp , Signal, Telegram. The market has provided solutions.
  • Victerius 4y ago
    How does have RCS have poor UX?
    • tonymet 4y ago
      onboarding and distinguishing feature support
• kriskrunch 4y ago
  I setup a BlueBubbles server on a spare Mac and I installed the BlueBubbles App. Boom. iMessages on Android. Done. Messaging is already extremely fragmented. BB is only the eighth messaging app on my phone. Considering getting on Beeper to consolodate this madness. Matrix/Element was too rough to utilize as is. Almost everyone I text with is on iMessage in the US. 95% or more of my regular contacts. Many are often outspoken about their cult like allegiance to iMessage. Finally some respect. The look on their face when I send them an iMessage from my Galaxy is priceless. Now, nearly all of the SMS messages I get are spam. Google Messages and the phone companies are pathetic at stopping them.
  • GekkePrutser 4y ago
    Yeah and there's also mautrix-imessage for those wanting to use element. I know it's rough setting up but there's a really great ansible playbook that makes it easy to maintain. I really love having all my messaging consolidated and not having all those privacy-invasive apps on my phone. Having my chats all in one big database is another boon. The playbook doesn't support mautrix-imessage but that's because that needs to be run on macOS.
    • navanchauhan 4y ago
      mautrix-imessage is actually developed by Beeper. iirc they just send you a jailbroken iPhone if you subscribe to them (as far as I can remember)
      • GekkePrutser 4y ago
        Yes, tulir works for beeper. But I think they stopped doing that iPhone thing, and if you use iOS there are less features available: https://github.com/mautrix/imessage/blob/master/ROADMAP.md https://github.com/mautrix/imessage/blob/master/ROADMAP.md . A Mac with SIP disabled is now the recommended method (apparently this can be a VM too!) That iPhone thing was something they did in the beginning, before they used the name Beeper, I forget the name they used. I like the idea of Beeper but self-hosting is important to me, so I use the ansible playbook instead. For hosted services there's also Element One by the way, though that doesn't include the iMessage bridge.
• fnordpiglet 4y ago
  * if you use the right carrier
• chrismsimpson 4y ago
  Pfft. What a joke.
• yieldcrv 4y ago
  RCS implementations are broken too, Google adding their own expanded or nonstandard implementation But a step in the right direction
• nr2x 4y ago
  The unconventional hair color is why I know I can trust this dude in the video.
• bamboozled 4y ago
  "It's time for WhatsApp, which everyone seems to want to use, to stop intrusively requesting access to my contacts for me to be able to use it." "It's time for Android to stop being such a POS" ...etc
• MBCook 4y ago
  RCS itself does not support E2E encryption. That’s an extension Google developed. It only works if BOTH people are using Google’s Messages app. Group chats? Totally plain text in the clear. No encryption at all. RCS is not good enough. Fix the issues, develop something better, I don’t care. Only E2E is good enough.
  • jvolkman 4y ago
    SMS/MMS, which is the only iMessage fallback today, is not E2E.
    • atonse 4y ago
      Not that I'm a proponent of keeping SMS around, but then what's the incentive to move to RCS? The actual "open" parts of RCS don't seem any better.
      • infotogivenm 4y ago
        I agree 100% tbh, but the site does list a few incentives - no more blurry images/videos, possibility for tapback and animations etc.
      • jvolkman 4y ago
        Apart from better media, typing indicators, etc., RCS allows richer metadata (like content types) and various side channels (AFAIK) that allow extensions like E2E to be added. SMS is just 160 characters. I believe Google will share their E2E spec with others. They published an overview a while ago [1], but presumably they'd offer more to someone wanting to actually implement it. 1: https://www.gstatic.com/messages/papers/messages_e2ee.pdf https://www.gstatic.com/messages/papers/messages_e2ee.pdf
        • tommit 4y ago
          Better media is a valid point, but I feel like mentioning typing indicators right after totally takes away from it. It felt so out of place in the article as well. Sorry, but who gives a fuck? All you need to do is wait a couple more seconds and you will know whether the recipient got your message, because in 99/100 cases, guess what follows the typing indicator? A message. I honestly do not get the benefit. If anything, it stresses me out. Sorry to pick and choose from your comment. Like I said, the other points are definitely valid. It's just this feature I don't understand bringing up.
• jesprenj 4y ago
  What's wrong with continuing to use SMS exactly? Why do we need to use alternative incompatible protocols if existing protocols are reliable and work even of 20 years old devices? Both iPhone and Android support SMS and I see no improvement in either using iMessage or RCS. I may be biased because I don't use neither of them.
  • thomasahle 4y ago
    > What's wrong with continuing to use SMS exactly You can't send images with SMS. People like to send each other images.
  • eftychis 4y ago
    The only reason (from my POV) to stop using SMS, is that it is a security nightmare (no integrity or authentication, can be MITM) and for some crazy reason everyone has decided it is a splendid idea to use it for 2FA. That is like using wolves to protect your sheep -- sure if you keep them well-fed it might work... Otherwise, Google is complaining because iMessage is a moat Apple has, that Google can not break on its own.
    • navanchauhan 4y ago
      How exactly does RCS fix the security issue? The texts are only E2E when both users are using the Google messaging app, plus group messages are just plain text
      • eftychis 4y ago
        I didn't say one should use RCS.
• harry8 4y ago
  It's time for SMS to BE SMS. Always. If I want to use something else, I'll use it. If a contact of mine who uses apple tries to SMS me that should work as expected. Always. It _never_ does. Apple intercept it and screw it up to try for their vendor lock-in anti-competitive behaviour. Apple need to be broken up every bit as badly as google do. It's just insane the way they _both_ behave. It's a competitive race to see how can screw the public harder, faster and deeper. It has to stop, now!
• eftychis 4y ago
  RCS is dead. The Cross Carrier Messaging Initiative (CCMI) has given up. Google is the one still pushing for it. iMessage is simply a big Apple moat. Why would Apple give it up to enhance Google's business position? Google wants us to pick theirs over Apple's. Also note that to my knowledge, RCS is not available in all countries. The other funny thing is that Google complains about SMS being insecure -- all while RCS does not support end to end encryption. Google Messages added that feature recently relatively (last year? please correct me below) and I still can't understand if it's on by default or not. Here is a random article about RCS state. Feel free to google for more: https://linustechtips.com/topic/1327240-in-the-us-rcs-text-messaging-is-now-bascially-dead-for-now/ https://linustechtips.com/topic/1327240-in-the-us-rcs-text-m... I would love a common solution, but rationally I can not blame Apple for keeping a (to me from experiencing both) superior experience that brings in customers. And Google has just managed to catch up. Google will need to make their messaging an order or two better, to the point that Apple will have to join. P.S. Also, I am skeptical any time the phrases privacy, end-to-end encryption, and Google cohabitate the same statement. (Edit)P.S.2. Just use https://apps.microsoft.com/store/detail/bluebubbles/9P3XF8KJ0LSM?hl=en-us&gl=US https://apps.microsoft.com/store/detail/bluebubbles/9P3XF8KJ... in the meantime.
  • dools 4y ago
    I run a phone business in Australia which is, as far as I'm aware, the only product that supports voice, txt and picture messaging on a virtual number outside of North America. Ever since I built the product, people have been telling me SMS is obsolete and RCS is coming (4 years now). Google bought Jibe Mobile in 2015, if you go to the Jibe website and try to submit their "Get Started" form there is an error. I have tried to get in touch with carriers to find out how to connect up RCS from my product (because hey, don't want to get behind the 8 ball) and haven't found any way to get it set up, even when asking my upstream providers. I really don't think RCS is going anywhere, but if it is, it would be good to be able to build it into my product! [0] http://www.benkophone.com/ http://www.benkophone.com/
    • pabs3 4y ago
      IIRC with RCS, carriers don't run the infrastructure, Google does.
• minhdanh72 4y ago
  For me another frustrating thing when using iMessage on iPhone is that I often receive spam messages from unknown contacts, which I cannot block at all.
  • Jtsummers 4y ago
    Click on the message thread, click on the sender at the top of the thread, select "info" for the contact, at the bottom select "block". Not obvious, I'll agree, but you can definitely block it (it should be a much shorter path). This works for iMessages and SMS.
• m3kw9 4y ago
  Apple needs to fix their keyboard auto correct. It sucks for texting
  • dbg31415 4y ago
    You're ducking right they do!
• mrcarruthers 4y ago
  As much as there's somewhat of a point where a "standard, no vendor lock-in" messaging system is desirable, (RCS or otherwise), Google is the last company that should be giving anyone any sort of shit about messaging.
• bubblethink 4y ago
  What a shame that google is posting this on the android.com domain. Not only is RCS broken and regressive, google does not even ship a reference implementation in AOSP. They haven't updated their stock AOSP apps in a decade. So why should Apple implement some proprietary backwards standard that google only implements in their proprietary app ?
• thayne 4y ago
  What I really want to happen is for an independent, secure, ideally federated messaging system (matrix maybe?) to become ubiquitous and replace SMS and iMessage. Sadly, I don't have much hope that will happen anytime soon.
• Affric 4y ago
  Would Apple moving to RCS mean more of their users data to google?
• saxonww 4y ago
  This is so funny because they don't even do a good job themselves with their own service. I'm a Google phone user on Google Fi, and make heavy use of the web app (message.google.com/web) in addition to texting via the phone. Once you get a long conversation history, the phone experience becomes poor - conversations won't load, messages won't send - and the web will often lose sync and need to be re-paired (which may or may not itself work). On top of that, some days messages just will not send quickly, not over wifi or 5g, to the point that it's too hard to converse via text and we just give up. Google has an alternative configuration for Fi users, btw: you can do all your calls and texts through Fi, have Fi store your messages and voicemails, etc. Except you have to turn off RCS for this, because Fi doesn't support it. So you get the SMS/MMS experience they are complaining about, and on top of that they convert all your audio and video to 3gpp and downscale the heck out of it such that it's nearly worthless. Who knows what's realistically possible but I wonder if Google is going about this the right way. Call up Tim Cook and say we'd like to give Android users a better messaging experience, how can we work with you to do that. Don't try to embarrass Apple into helping you - Apple very likely does not care - and certainly if you're going to point out where their choices lead to a worse experience for your users, make sure you're not doing the same thing.
  • DangitBobby 4y ago
    Just to counter your anecdote, I've never had a single performance issue on the Android Messages app on my phone or the web interface. I have had friends with iPhones that fail to render images I've sent them, and they send this obnoxious "so and so responded with a thumbs up" (still do, android phones just do the right thing now and show a thumbs up reaction instead of the text). So YMMV. Apple needs to fix their broken messaging app.
• GrabbinD33ze69 4y ago
  If you're an iPhone user, why would you care for apple to implement change? If you use iMessage, you'll keep using imessage, and if you live in a market where whatsapp dominates, then you just use whatsapp. I get this is a very shortsighted attitude, but I'd imagine how this is the avg iPhone use would think.
• bern4444 4y ago
  I can understand Google's frustration but they have no one to blame but themselves. Everyone is familiar with their graveyard of failed messaging applications (along with their graveyard of products generally). When I had an android phone, I tried RCS with someone else on Android. It never worked. I'm sure it's improved, but as the common theme of this story goes, Google blew their chance. I also don't trust google to abide by the "standard" they've created. Their track record is abysmal. I don't want to use yet another messaging service that they've built. I don't trust it to exist in the future, receive support and updates, and for it to be maintained. If google abandons it that means the telecoms are stuck holding the bag and when we demand even more from the next iteration of messaging apps, RCS will go the way SMS has today. This is nothing more than Google reaping the results of their own failures. It's a shame they squandered the opportunity over the last 15 years to develop a cohesive messaging app strategy across their products, but its their shame and now they have to pay the price. In a last ditch effort they're trying to throw all the blame on Apple who was able to innovate and launch a successful messaging service years ago. Apple recognized that SMS could be improved, and they improved it. They didn't wait for anyone and they recognize the importance of continued support - a quality Google does not seem to foster. Google had their chance over and over again but they blew it over and over again. I don't care about the little things RCS adds, message bubbles, delivery confirmation etc. These may be nice additions but they truly don't make a large difference. If an Android phone wants to send a high quality image, video etc they can share a link. That's good enough for me. Google failed, miserably and publicly. This latest campaign is just embarrassing for them.
  • thomasahle 4y ago
    > I don't want to use yet another messaging service that they've built. You literally wouldn't be. You would keep using iMessage. All that would be different is that you could now send images and videos to Android users. Right now you have to switch to another app to do that. This is not a '"standard" they've created', this is a GSM Association standard, and it would be Apple, not Google, implementing it.
    • KaiserPro 4y ago
      Are you saying that Apple doesn't send MMS? because from my experience, it totally can. I know because I've got the bill for it. But to go back to the original point, I don't want google near my chat history. I don't really like Apple having it either.
• camillomiller 4y ago
  In Europe it’s WhatsApp or Telegram all over. I have maybe four people I know I can reliably text on iMessage. This green vs blue bubble is rather an example of how self centered America is, always thinking its own big bubble is actually the world. In Tech that’s quite clear to see.
  • GrabbinD33ze69 4y ago
    It's quite frustrating as it's a uniquely North American issue. I also never see this being fixed, as I'm fairly certain iMessage dominates in markets where the iPhone also holds a majority market share as well (makes sense). If you're an iPhone user in north america, many of your friends use iMessage so you don't care about this. If you're an iPhone use elsewhere, you still don't care as you most likely use whatsapp, telegram, line etc.
• thomasahle 4y ago
  ITT: Hundreds of iPhone users who'd rather have a shitty fallback to MMS than a better standard benefitting users of both platforms. I don't see a single way using RCS as fallback over MMS would result in a worse experience for iMessage users. Apple users always like to complain about green messages in group chats. Why not do something simple that would fix it?
• gravytron 4y ago
  So we’re just going start kicking and screaming because iOS users have a different experience than android users? Can anyone here help me understand why Android feels entitled to dictate non Android users’ experience? This seems like a cultural failure within Android that is a byproduct of their inability to satisfy their users. They have completely run out of cards and all that they have left is low budget low effort marketing like this - or is that actually all that they ever had, to begin with after all? Haha. Maybe focus on delivering a meaningful experience for your users and pull your nose out of the tail end of the iPhone?
  • upbeat_general 4y ago
    It’s a pain for iOS users as well. I have a friend with an android phone I want to message. We all have issues with the various 3rd party apps but her phone has solid RCS support. My iPhone does not (and cannot) until Apple implements RCS support.
• Too 4y ago
  It’s funny the article uses blurry images as an example of broken experience and then suggests WhatsApp as an alternative, where image quality is absolutely horrendous. Many of my friends groups stopped using WhatsApp only for this reason.
• Cub3 4y ago
  I'm honestly getting to the point where I want to ban sms entirely from my phone, 99% of the messages I'd receive are spam / phishing / advertising related. How does RCS solve this?
• gigatexal 4y ago
  Apple has no obligation to do anything. Messaging is broken on Android and it isn’t helped by Google’s stewardship. So the Android fans want Apple to swoop in and save them? No. That’s not how this works.
• pabs3 4y ago
  It sounds like RCS is simply some additional specs on top of IMS, which is the basis of VoLTE/VoWiFI and IMS is some additional specs on top of SIP. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rich_Communication_Services https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rich_Communication_Services
• jamisteven 4y ago
  Apple would rather Android users feel isolated and thus pressured into adoption of a superior product than enhance iMessage to be RCS compatible. In Europe, people rarely use iMessage for group chats at all, WhatsApp / Telegram / Threema / Signal are defacto group chat apps for this very reason. People know iMessage is not multi-device friendly and no benefit to using it. I imagine this problem is nowhere near their list of actual problems worth looking at.
• fbn79 4y ago
  From personal experience, in Italy, texting is always done using app like Whatsapp, Telegram or similar. The native Android messaging app is just used to receive transactional SMS like OTP codes or similar, nothing else.
• username223 4y ago
  Pathetic, Google. Just pick a single chat app that uses data on top of SMS. WhatsApp and the other Facebook messaging apps won in Latin America because they’re zero-rated, like SMS effectively is within the US. If you want to make a popular chat app, pay those telcos.
• mocmoc 4y ago
  Whatever
• parkingrift 4y ago
  Why in the world does anyone want another carrier standard? What do the carriers want? Who. Cares. Say absolutely NO to any standard that requires carrier implementation.
• dbg31415 4y ago
  You know what's really funny? As a Google Fi user for all my cell coverage, but an Apple user for all my phones... Google doesn't let iPhone users send SMS messages to Android users out of the box. They've done something custom to their network that mucks up the ability to user an iPhone to send messages. Anyway they're just as guilty as Apple of trying to manipulate users, this whole campaign is just PR. They don't like the fact that their users show up as inferior green-bubbles on Apple devices. But really, these are separate platforms at this point. iMessage, Facebook Messenger, Signal, Snapchapt, AIM, ICQ, whatever else the kids are using today... you can't send messages between them all. And look, dumbing communications down so they aren't using end-to-end encryption has consequences. https://www.theverge.com/2022/8/10/23299502/facebook-chat-messenger-history-nebraska-teen-abortion-case https://www.theverge.com/2022/8/10/23299502/facebook-chat-me...
• mikhael28 4y ago
  Google just salty because cool young people want the blue. Only old, ugly people use Android. … believe it or not, this is how young people think. When I was single, it was rare to find a hot girl I was interested in use Android. Now, maybe my taste in women is questionable, but that was the reality - much easier to ‘trust’ the blue, instead of that sketchy, broke ass Android green.
• JohnFen 4y ago
  Personally, I keep RCS disabled on my phone. After trying it for a while, I found it very, very annoying. I strongly prefer plain text.