30 ms·

How fast is 12th Gen Intel Core?

370 points by nreece 4y ago

DarkmSparks 4y ago
do intel have vulkan drivers yet? XP11.11 (2018) is ancient, current release is from late last year - but more importantly XP12 is coming very soon and going to be vulkan/metal only, and afaik even the Xe intel gpus are lacking drivers.
nominusllc 4y ago
I went from saying, "if only they had an AMD" to getting a different machine in ARM and now im saying "if only they had ARM". I never realized how much heat, vibration, air blowers negatively affected me before. A framework laptop with some type of ARM or ARM-like cpu could do a lot with the space savings on cooling.
- devwastaken 4y ago
  Apples M1 only worked because everything is in one chip. Very different from the goals of framework. There aren't any vendors offering M1 competitors either.
  - masklinn 4y ago
    > Apples M1 only worked because everything is in one chip. That’s not true in any way?
    - 3OCSzk 4y ago
      Could you elaborate why it isn't the case?
      - Nursie 4y ago
        They may be referring to the early rumours/misapprehension that the RAM was on-die and part of the SOC as well. This isn't true AFAICT.
      - masklinn 4y ago
        Because there’s no evidence for the claim, and the evidence is mostly “Apple has created a huge and complex chip”? And what does “Everything is in one chip” even mean? Because the memory certainly isn’t, it’s soldered on the package but it’s not part of the package, it just doesn’t take additional room on the main board. And there are a bunch of other chips on the mainboard Finally, it’s pretty much just following mobile / phone chip SoC design, so any other manufacturer could do the same, if they wanted to create a giant and expensive SOC. And I want to be really clear on the “giant and expensive” part: the M1 family is the sort of scale you usually see on giant workstation or server chips, the M1 Pro has 33.7 billion transistors, that’s more than a Threadripper 5995WX, a $6500 64 cores CPU. The M1 is just short of the 5950X’s transistor count (16 billions to 19.2), the M2 is above (~20).
        audunw 4y ago
        > And what does “Everything is in one chip” even mean? I guess he's mainly thinking of GPU, which isn't unique. But there's not that many SoCs with that amount of power in one SoC. So it's close to competing with alternatives with discrete GPUs, which does increase power consumption. I believe it has integrated Flash controller too, which is very unique for a laptop/desktop chip, no? > Because the memory certainly isn’t, it’s soldered on the package but it’s not part of the package, it just doesn’t take additional room on the main board. And there are a bunch of other chips on the mainboard It's on the package so it can be as close to the SoC as possible. That decreases the capacitance of the traces, which decreases power consumption. It's not stacked on top of the SoC, which might have been even better (but harder to cool), but it's close. > Finally, it’s pretty much just following mobile / phone chip SoC design, so any other manufacturer could do the same, if they wanted to create a giant and expensive SOC. Uh, yeah, anyone could copy the M1 for a laptop/desktop product. But they haven't exactly done that yet have they? That's kind of the point? > the M1 family is the sort of scale you usually see on giant workstation or server chips Yeah, which again, almost never packs the kind of functionality Apple does into the M1. With that many transistors, on such an advanced process, you're going to have a lot of leakage currents, so Apple must have put an impressive amount of work into power management. I mean, it's not just about being an SoC with lots of things packed within the chip or extremely close to the cheap (memory). No. It's apparent that they've focused on across the entire design process. Even the choice of ARM factors into that (fewer transistors needed for instruction decoding). But I wouldn't say the original comment is completely wrong.
  - mastax 4y ago
    AMD's laptop CPUs are also "everything in one chip." Intel still has a separate chipset die on the package as far as I can tell.
    - rowanG077 4y ago
      This is not true. AMD CPUs do not include NVME controllers for example. There probably are more things AMD does not do on the CPU itself.
      - paulmd 4y ago
        [citation needed] Cezanne SOC topology: https://cdn.mos.cms.futurecdn.net/ix6FrojFD7anKypadF2vKM.jpg https://cdn.mos.cms.futurecdn.net/ix6FrojFD7anKypadF2vKM.jpg Rembrandt SOC topology: https://cdn.mos.cms.futurecdn.net/8wnuFCokmeHjESuSbzYWMJ.jpg https://cdn.mos.cms.futurecdn.net/8wnuFCokmeHjESuSbzYWMJ.jpg Even on the desktop processors, there are onboard lanes dedicated to the NVMe itself, and the entire processor (including NVMe) is capable of booting without a supporting chipset at all - the "X300 chipset" is actually not a chipset at all, it is just using the SOC itself without an external chipset, and you do not lose NVMe functionality. Not sure if you are using some really weird meaning of "NVMe controller" that doesn't match what anyone else means?
        deleted 4y ago
        [deleted]
        rowanG077 4y ago
        I meant the controller that manages the NAND cells, I assumed it would be called NVMe controller. Essentially the IC that the "NVMe controller" in your image talks to.
        paulmd 4y ago
        That would normally be called a "flash controller" and yeah, of course that lives on the SSD. (unless it doesn't - eMMC doesn't normally have a flash controller and you just do direct writes to the flash cells... as do some IOFusion PCIe cards that are just flash directly attached to PCIe with no controller. Sometimes that functionality is just software-based. Flash cards (eg microSD) usually also do not have a flash controller directly either.) Anyway, it's true though that Apple does push the flash controller functionality into the SOC while AMD does not, Apple implements their SSD in a non-standard fashion, that's why it's not compatible with off-the-shelf drives. The flash is just flash on a board, I don't even think it's NVMe compatible at all either. So if you want to be maximally pedantic... neither does Apple implement onboard NVMe controllers, just flash controllers ;)
- wingmanjd 4y ago
  Is there any other ARM processors in Apple's M1 class of performance? I haven't kept up with progress on the CPU front.
  - specto 4y ago
    Unfortunately, not even close.
    - jjtheblunt 4y ago
      unfortunately? as in no competition to drive progress?
      - nwah1 4y ago
        Not too many companies have a market cap over a trillion dollars, and if you don't then you can forget about competing on the upcoming process nodes that will require enormous capital. Samsung's internal processor division seems to be sucking. Google is trying it half-heartedly like they do with nearly everything. Nvidia and AMD haven't really tried to compete for the desktop ARM market, and Intel certainly hasn't. Qualcomm has rolled their mobile chips for laptops, but they remain mobile chips in a larger form factor. So Apple is in a class of its own for desktop-grade ARM CPUs.
        deleted 4y ago
        [deleted]
        jagger27 4y ago
        Hopefully Qualcomm’s Nuvia acquisition will bear some fruit sometime soon.
        varispeed 4y ago
        I hope they move into workstation. Something like a quad M2 MAX would probably sell like there is no tomorrow.
      - hiyer 4y ago
- nwah1 4y ago
  I don't doubt those benefits are real, but I recently bought a Samsung Galaxy Book with Intel 12th gen and integrated graphics, and it is actually fantastic. Super thin, lightweight, silent, and low heat, while still boasting 12 extremely fast cores. And it was very affordable. It is very weird for me to buy a laptop where I have almost no complaints... and Samsung did a splendid job with all the fit and finish. I'm sure a lot of it is in fact thanks to the non-CPU upgrades like DDR5, since CPU is rarely the bottleneck, but it is all the same to me. This to me sounds like the experience people were praising the M1 chips for, and tbh Intel actually delivered for once. I say this as someone who had been solidly in the AMD camp for a long time. Thanks to competition, Intel now has to be good. Weird!
  - xuki 4y ago
    How is the battery life? M1 laptops can easily last the whole day without plugging for most users.
    - nwah1 4y ago
      I am able to get 4 or 5 hours of intensive programming done on battery power... running multiple IDEs, Android emulators, browsers, etc. I've never tried it with a normal usage pattern because I only use battery power for working.
      - jxi 4y ago
        That’s pretty bad compared to m1. Less than half the battery life. Also Samsung laptops don’t last in my experience. They make short term tradeoffs at the expense of long term reliability.
        bpodgursky 4y ago
        Maybe, but 4-5 hours is solidly the point at which it doesn't matter at all to me. I haven't had trouble finding an outlet for years, even at airports, planes, coffeeshops, etc.
- kcb 4y ago
  I've played with an AMD 6800u laptop and I would say it's the ideal x86 laptop chip right now. Normal usage at the 12w mode or light gaming at 20w mode was super impressive. Even though 12th Gen Intel chips have made great performance gains Intel is still relying on unsustainable high turbo boosts to get the benchmark numbers. I just recently stumbled across these two otherwise identical laptops. https://psref.lenovo.com/syspool/Sys/PDF/Lenovo/Lenovo_Slim_7_ProX_14IAH7/Lenovo_Slim_7_ProX_14IAH7_Spec.pdf https://psref.lenovo.com/syspool/Sys/PDF/Lenovo/Lenovo_Slim_... https://psref.lenovo.com/syspool/Sys/PDF/Lenovo/Lenovo_Slim_7_ProX_14ARH7/Lenovo_Slim_7_ProX_14ARH7_Spec.pdf https://psref.lenovo.com/syspool/Sys/PDF/Lenovo/Lenovo_Slim_... The AMD version is rated for 20% greater battery life just from the CPU difference.
  - ZuLuuuuuu 4y ago
    Exactly. Not just 1 model but you can compare identical ThinkPad models as well and AMD versions have significantly better battery life. Not only that, even last year's identical models with 11th Gen Intel CPUs have better battery life than their new 12th Gen models. So Intel's power efficiency actually decreased compared to last year, even though they introduced the hybrid architecture. In some instances Alder Lake CPUs slightly edge out Apple's CPUs in performance, but with a terrible battery life (~4 hours of real world battery life vs >10 hours on Apple laptops) and noisy fans. AMD on the other hand seems to have focused on getting a good balance this year. 6800U models have significant performance improvements over the last gen while improving the battery life as well. I am thinking of buying a new laptop this year, but I am waiting for the AMD models. For anyone interested, these are the models I am waiting for: https://psref.lenovo.com/Product/ThinkBook/ThinkBook_13s_G4_ARB https://psref.lenovo.com/Product/ThinkBook/ThinkBook_13s_G4_... https://psref.lenovo.com/Product/ThinkPad/ThinkPad_X13_Gen_3_AMD https://psref.lenovo.com/Product/ThinkPad/ThinkPad_X13_Gen_3... Both have much better battery life than their Intel counterparts: ThinkBook 13s Gen 4 (AMD): 14 hours ThinkBook 13s Gen 4 (Intel): 10.9 hours ThinkPaf X13 Gen 3 (AMD): 15.68 hours ThinkPad X13 Gen 3 (Intel): 11.8 hours These numbers are usually lower in real life, but they are comparable with each other.
    - microtonal 4y ago
- freedomben 4y ago
  I have absolutely no data or information to back this up, but I predict a RISC-V based Framework within the next 5 years. And I'll be one of the first customers to buy one.
  - selectodude 4y ago
    Why wait? https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2022/07/first-risc-v-laptop-expected-to-ship-in-september/ https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2022/07/first-risc-v-laptop-...
    - freedomben 4y ago
      That's super exciting, but I'm not familiar with Xcalibyte. are they a good and reputable maker?
      - necovek 4y ago
        Is frame.work a good and reputable maker? Not saying they won't turn out to be, but they are still young considering the space they are in. Similar holds for any other hw maker that is only starting out!
        tasubotadas 4y ago
        Or any maker that starts using RISC
        freedomben 4y ago
        Yes I think frame.work is a good and reputable maker. They are indeed still young, but they've made and kept a number of big early promises, and have been consistently shipping. There are some bugs/quality concerns but I'm confident they'll work them out. I've bought hardware before though from companies I'd never heard of, and either never received it or when I did it was much poorer quality than advertised or was so long after the order that I'd nearly forgotten about it. Would hate for that to happen with xcalibyte
  - 4y ago
- ben-schaaf 4y ago
  Lowering the power of an intel/AMD CPU enough to passively cool it would yield way more performance than currently commercially available arm CPUs. (Obviously excluding CPUs that aren't purchasable like Apple's)
  - ido 4y ago
    Does that include the Apple M1 / M2 lines?
    - ben-schaaf 4y ago
      I have absolutely no reason to believe Apple will ever sell those to third parties. I've edited the comment to clarify.
- KingOfCoders 4y ago
  My XPS didn't blow. My MacBook Pros (Intel) always did. As others have shown heat management in Intel MacBook Pros were abysmal and not comparable to other Intel Laptops. Yes, the M1 is a huge power efficiency jump forward, would love affordable ARM desktop machines, but a lot of the MacBook Pro (Intel) problems are from very bad heat management. [Edit] My understanding is, that a lot of power efficiency and performance comes from the large cache - not only ARM - which is more efficient than main memory and faster - also see AMD X3D. (per core AFAIK) Ryzen 7 L1/L2: 32/512, M1 L1/L2 192/3072
- varispeed 4y ago
  > I never realized how much heat, vibration, air blowers negatively affected me before. It's like a constant drilling sound that gets into your brain and makes thoughts flow like through the mud in the full sunlight. For that reason, despite that I don't like Apple and I am not a fan of macOS, I decided to buy M1 MBP. This is a lifechanging experience, that laptop. You can even put it on low power mode and won't lose much perfomance and it is absolutely silent. Even if you run a prolonged heavy task and fans kick in, you will barely hear them (ha hope it won't get worse over time and that there will be a way to disconnect them if that is going to be a problem). Oh and no coil whine. Even if my XPS 15 miraculously don't have fans on, you can be sure their noise is inconveniently replaced by distinct coil whine that is just as annoying as fans. I am probably going to buy another macbook, this time the Air one just for leisure and learning.
  - asdff 4y ago
    I'm honestly impressed that so many people in these threads work in environments quiet enough where the fan is the largest source of annoyance. If I'm inside its drowned out by my window AC unit. If I'm outside on the patio its drowned out by my neighbor's window AC unit. If I take it to work then its the hvac vent over my desk that's the dominant source of noise, followed by the construction site across the street. Usually I use third party tools to pin my fan at max speed when I'm doing anything because it keeps the keyboard cooler.
Temporal_Trout 4y ago
In the first table, in the first row (11th Gen), the professional column is missing the core count. It currently says "(Up to 4.8 GHz, Cores)" and by https://ark.intel.com/content/www/us/en/ark/products/208664/intel-core-i71185g7-processor-12m-cache-up-to-4-80-ghz-with-ipu.html https://ark.intel.com/content/www/us/en/ark/products/208664/... it should be "(Up to 4.8 GHz, 4 Cores)".
- nrp 4y ago
  Thanks for catching that! I’ve forwarded it to the team.
procodr 4y ago
For "Linux kernel compilation speed" they have compared a 16 GB model with 64 GB model for achieving 102.60% improvement! It's so funny =)
- walrus01 4y ago
  GB, not Gb
  - procodr 4y ago
    yes, tanx
- nrp 4y ago
  Yes, we intended to do an apples to apples comparison, but didn’t find the necessary units on hand when writing the post.
  - 1R 4y ago
    Saying that you intended to do something, and in the same breath that you were subsequently unable to do said thing, because you couldn't find what was required is very discouraging for a prospective customer. Also, "benchmarking" dissimilar systems comes across as marketing scam, scammy marketing, appealing to the deceivable, which some might view as reprehensible :(
    - rsyring 4y ago
      Reprehensible...really? There's lots of that in the world, pretty sure this isn't it. They put the memory difference right there in the stats, it's not like they are hiding it. Lighten up a bit. :)
  - Dunedan 4y ago
    Why didn't you just move the 16GB of RAM from the 11th Gen model to the 12th Gen model? Both use DDR4 after all, don't they?
itvision 4y ago
For MT performance and graphics Ryzen 5800U and 6800U are even better.
- bwhitty 4y ago
  6800U is awesome from what I’ve seen — better efficiency by far, and legit integrated graphics better than Xe — but it is vanishingly rare, even months after announcement. The scale Intel has in manufacturing mobile CPUs is still unmatched.
  - brokenmachine 4y ago
    >6800U is awesome from what I’ve seen — better efficiency by far The 6800U is only a 5% efficiency increase over 5800U, I agree that the GPU is _much_ better though. https://www.notebookcheck.net/AMD-Ryzen-7-6800U-Efficiency-Review-Zen3-beats-Intel-Alder-Lake.623763.0.html https://www.notebookcheck.net/AMD-Ryzen-7-6800U-Efficiency-R...
    - ben-schaaf 4y ago
      That article actually shows %5 worse efficiency over a 5600U in a heavy single threaded workload. It's a bit apples to oranges and there's a lot more to efficiency on a laptop than heavy single core workloads.
      - deleted 4y ago
        [deleted]
mmmeff 4y ago
Cool, now compare it to an M2
- corralina 4y ago
  For some people comparing to Apple is useless - Macbooks could be a thousand times faster and last for a year on battery, they still would be 100% useless to me because they don't run the software I need on a daily basis.
  - theonemind 4y ago
    What software do you find irreplaceable?
    - deleted 4y ago
      [deleted]
- kcb 4y ago
  Performance wise, quite favorable. Battery and power consumption, not so much.
  - senttoschool 4y ago
    Performance wise, the M2 is still faster.
    - cbg0 4y ago
      It isn't https://nanoreview.net/en/cpu-compare/intel-core-i7-12700h-vs-apple-m2 https://nanoreview.net/en/cpu-compare/intel-core-i7-12700h-v...
      - senttoschool 4y ago
        M2 is faster. Faster ST, GPU, video editing, AI and at significantly lower power. It loses on MT but that's because we don't have the M2 Pro/Max yet. M2 is just the entry-level SoC being compared to Intel's very best. Also, try running the benchmarks unplugged. Intel's performance will instantly drop by 25 - 50%. M2 will stay exactly the same.
stewbrew 4y ago
What I don't like about framework notebooks is that they seem to be mostly interested in speed, which is why they seemed to choose these P-series CPUs. With a notebook, I'm much more interested in energy consumption (how long can I work off grid), emissions like fan noise and the like. Why no U-series CPUs?
- kcb 4y ago
  Restricting TDP is generally an option on laptops if you really wanted to. Not sure if Framework provides any out of the box TDP switching but software like ThrottleStop can do it.
  - R0b0t1 4y ago
    Yeah. I tried locking some of my older CPUs to, say, 700MHz. Still entirely usable unless I started compiling something, say. Issue is Intel tries to race to halt which demonstrably saves more power on average. The power consumption of your chip probably is some intrinsic quality related to how the package and die are set up.
  - lhl 4y ago
    Also on Linux most distros have thermald installed and you can change the config to limit the max temperature to defacto throttle power usage. Alternatively, you can modify the RAPL limits to cap power usage directly to taste: https://community.frame.work/t/thermal-management-on-linux-with-rapl-limits/17416 https://community.frame.work/t/thermal-management-on-linux-w...
- nrp 4y ago
  The U and P series parts are actually the same dies on 12th Gen, but binned. If you set the Power Mode to Best Power Efficiency on Windows or the equivalent power limiting in Linux, you can make a P behave pretty similarly to what a U would (with the Intel DTT settings we used).
  - wtallis 4y ago
    Isn't it the H and P series that use the same die, while the U series is a much smaller die (2 instead of 6 P cores)?
anderfernandes1 4y ago
2muchcoffeeman 4y ago
Surely the real story here is that Framework have released a CPU upgrade for a laptop?
- nrp 4y ago
  Yep! We released an announcement around starting shipments of this two weeks ago. Our blog post this week was just a round-up of benchmarks both from reviewers and from us, to respond to common questions we got around performance improvements.
  - 2muchcoffeeman 4y ago
    Unfortunately you don’t ship to my country!
  - joyhumin 4y ago
    What's the plan to open the region in New Zealand?
CarVac 4y ago
Very glad I ordered my Framework with the 1240P. The performance benefits of the higher-end parts seem dubious.
jacknews 4y ago
The coolest thing isn't just the cpu upgrade, but that the whole mainboard is something like a standard. Other laptops have weird shaped boards just for that one model. If this 'standard' takes off it could start an entire ecosystem of modular hardware. That's exciting. I'm hoping for a 'Framework surface', a 'Framework tv', a 'Framework 400', etc.
- lhl 4y ago
  An even cooler thing is that since the mechanicals are all published, anyone can actually make their own relatively easily, like this Framework Tablet: https://www.reddit.com/r/framework/comments/wgzwv1/two_big_drops_today_ive_released_v13_of_the/ https://www.reddit.com/r/framework/comments/wgzwv1/two_big_d... * https://github.com/whatthefilament/Framework-Tablet https://github.com/whatthefilament/Framework-Tablet * https://www.instructables.com/Framework-Tablet-Assembly-Manual/ https://www.instructables.com/Framework-Tablet-Assembly-Manu...
  - xattt 4y ago
    Let me just get the tooling set up on the dining room table, I am sure my spouse won’t mind …
    - azeirah 4y ago
      You're not allowed to have hobbies or tinker around? :(
      - bejelentkezni 4y ago
        I think it's more of a "people are getting tired of internet DIY projects that require thousands of dollars of tooling and existing materials."
        yencabulator 4y ago
        You're in a startup-biased forum. If you don't like it as a hobby, how about thinking how the openness is good for business? Your buddy can start a company making Framework-compatible tablets, or a mini server rack, or Framework-compatible keyboards (ortholinear layout please!), etc.
dcw303 4y ago
I've been drooling over the framework laptops for a while now, can't wait until they're available in Japan.
pram 4y ago
The mainboard is really great. I’m reminded of the i9 NUC “compute element” and I’m disappointed Intel hasn’t really done anything more innovative in these kinds of form factors. Seems like they could easily standardize a swappable module like this for laptops and small computers. https://hardwarecanucks.com/wp-content/uploads/Intel-NUC-9-Extreme-Review-7.png https://hardwarecanucks.com/wp-content/uploads/Intel-NUC-9-E...
chx 4y ago
I so badly wish these things had TrackPoints :( the patents have expired...
- killingtime74 4y ago
  Since the keyboard is replaceable you could make your own and also sell to other like-minded people?
  - exyi 4y ago
    That's quite a bit more expensive than complaining on HN, or just buying a Lenovo
    - lhl 4y ago
      The HP EliteBooks (and the new Dev One Linux variant) also have trackpoints. Just in case anyone's interested in making their own though, I've seen a few DIY trackpoint projects over the years (mostly on custom mechs, not laptop keyboards though). Here's a writeup on one: https://edryd.org/posts/tp-mk/ https://edryd.org/posts/tp-mk/
      - nicolaslem 4y ago
        > The HP EliteBooks also have trackpoints. Not anymore, they are gone with Gen 9 :(
      - vladvasiliu 4y ago
        > The HP EliteBooks (and the new Dev One Linux variant) also have trackpoints. Are those supposed to be any good? I have an EB Gen8 with one, but I find it horrendous. I'd like to know whether it's because I have no idea how to use it, or if my Linux setup is broken, or if the hardware is actually shitty.
        f1refly 4y ago
        I had a company provided 2019 dell at my last job and the trackpoint was barely comparable to that of a 2011 thinkpad. If that's the only trackpoint experience is that some people get I understand why they'd never touch one again.
User23 4y ago
Title should reflect this is about some OEM and not Intel's offering per se.
wodenokoto 4y ago
After Apples announcement of M1, I feel like it is mandatory for such a laptop test to discuss power per watt and for how long you can game on the 11 vs 12th gen processor. I also feel like it is worth mentioning that 12th gen laptop is priced ~ $150 over the 11th gen. If you're coding against an online build system and 11 last an extra hour (or whatever), it's a no-brainer to stick with the old one.
- blackoil 4y ago
  As per most reviews 12th gen is more power efficient. Particularly for the use cases you have mentioned, as P cores wouldn't be working most of the time and E core are much more power efficient.
- ddorian43 4y ago
  You can't game on M1 or Mac AFAIK
  - preisschild 4y ago
    With MacOS probably never in a good way as MacOS doesn't support standard graphic APIs (Vulkan) In the near future you might if you install linux. Using box64 for amd64 translation and steam proton for windows translation if necessary.
  - sercand 4y ago
    Lots of people just don't game at all. Also, a lot of people like me prefer different gaming and work setup (and different rooms) in order to achieve better work-life balance. I build games on my M1 machine, just don't play on it.
    - bodge5000 4y ago
      How is M1 for game dev? I've been thinking of getting one for my own personal laptop, but have had a few concerns, mostly just due to the issues of building software on a totally different platform to the majority of your target users (which'll be Windows, x86). I used to have some compatibility worries but I'd guess they've gone away now.
philliphaydon 4y ago
I’m rather disappointed in 12th Gen for mobile. I have a AMD 5800h Lenovo laptop and a 12700 Dell. The dell stutters, fans spin, etc. the Lenovo is just rock solid and fast. Never stutters or slows down. Fans spin up only when playing games. I wish framework would do an AMD laptop. But Linus put them in touch with AMD and they done nothing.
- blackoil 4y ago
  Building a new laptop from scratch is time-taking and costly. So Framework may rightly be spending their time on optimising product, reducing cost and reaching more countries.
  - philliphaydon 4y ago
    Linus said he put them in touch and they haven't even spoken to each other. It's going to take time, but they aren't even engaging at the moment...
    - gkkirilov 4y ago
      small companies have less resources?
      - philliphaydon 4y ago
        Which is why it will take time… but they are not even entertaining the idea.
        qzw 4y ago
        I would love to see them add an AMD (and even ARM) option, but right now I applaud them for being tight-lipped about any future developments. What would they gain by acknowledging that they’re entertaining such ideas? People postponing their purchases, endlessly asking for ETA updates, getting mad when there are delays, etc. They’re much better off saying nothing and doing the work in the background. I also would understand if they choose not to offer a second CPU platform at this point. From their standpoint, it’s hugely expensive and time consuming to develop, potentially doubles their QA and support costs, makes their supply chain and inventory story more complicated, and probably makes their relationship with Intel a little worse. And realistically, they won’t get double the sales from just having an AMD option. So I would be pleasantly surprised if they offer an AMD option within 3 years, but I’m not holding my breath.
preisschild 4y ago
AMD and high performance ARM mainboards would be nice.
SpacePortKnight 4y ago
In a laptop, I care far more about battery life and the fan noise. However, Intel 12th gen is only able to pull these impressive performance feats due to very high turbo boost clocks. It's not that Intel is bad, it's still pretty great but in the age of M1 I wish Intel released a processor with similar power consumption. I use my Intel i5-1240p with turbo boost disabled when on battery. Here's the geekbench with TB disabled. https://browser.geekbench.com/v5/cpu/16497299 https://browser.geekbench.com/v5/cpu/16497299
- sroussey 4y ago
  Ouch
- augustl 4y ago
  How is 12th gen compared to 10th gen, in your experience? My XPS 13 on a 10th gen i7 just becomes absolute syrup on battery, even if I put it in high performance mode.
  - okasaki 4y ago
    I have an XPS 17 with 12th gen and it drains around 50% battery per hour on a zoom call. edit: My laptop has a i7-12700H, which uses more power than the cpu in the framework laptop. More thoughts: The laptop is pretty much always plugged in. When I'm out I carry a little 60W charger with me. However for other reasons I wouldn't recommend the XPS 17. I have a Lenovo legion 7 at home that I'm more happy with (cheaper, better performance, lots of ports, etc)
    - 867-5309 4y ago
      the one with a 17" 4K HDR touchscreen and RTX 3000 series? they will deplete the battery far quicker than the processor
    - augustl 4y ago
      Thanks for the real-world numbers! This is good for my emotional state, as I've switched from Windows to a MB Pro solely because of the battery life and performance of the M1 Pro chip.
midjji 4y ago
I would have been impressed a decade ago, but this is just an extremely marginal improvement, even if you can trust them, which you know intel, so you cant.
lynguist 4y ago
I don’t like that we call it 12th Gen Intel. It would be more correct to just call it the 12000 series Intel. Intel didn’t change CPU generations from 6000-10000 series, they’re all the same generation. Just because the years advance and they refresh their products with increased product numbers doesn’t mean that they’re a new generation of products.
- cbg0 4y ago
  Aside from being pedantic, why is this relevant? I'm sure most people that care enough know that it isn't Intel's 12th generation.
  - lynguist 4y ago
    It breaks where generations and numbers mix. While 12xxx and 12xx are Alder Lake, 11xxx is Rocket Lake (based on Ice Lake) and 11xx is Tiger Lake. 10xxx is based on Skylake, 10xx is Ice Lake. That’s where it’s misleading. The number is only a product number that shows the approximate year of release for these mixed product lines. Because of this, you can’t say things like “compared to the previous generation” any more. 12xxx is two generations newer than 11xxx. 10xxx is the same generation as 9xxx.
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
sharmin123 4y ago
qyahz 4y ago
I don't care how fast M1 is if it can't run my 32-bit x86 Windows programs. It may as well not exist.
- nightfly 4y ago
  Good for you?
- thijsvandien 4y ago
  It can though, if you install the ARM build of Windows (in a VM), which translates instructions like Rosetta 2 does: https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/arm/overview#support-for-existing-windows-apps-on-arm https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/arm/overview#suppor....
- theonemind 4y ago
  What 32 bit x86 Windows programs do you still use?
_odey 4y ago
Maybe I'm spoiled, but it feels like an article like this would have turned out way better if they contracted Michael Larabel from Phoronix to do an in depth benchmark run with both versions of the laptop comparing multiple type of workloads, temperature, performance per watt (or if they would have used the full Phoronix test suite themselves). Although there is nothing wrong with the current one, it feels a bit... shallow on details.
- _odey 4y ago
  Something a little like this: https://www.phoronix.com/review/apple-m2-linux https://www.phoronix.com/review/apple-m2-linux
AndrianV 4y ago
Ryzen 5800U and 6800U are even better than its predecessors in terms of MT performance and graphics.
mstaoru 4y ago
I think for those who primarily work on AC and do not mind increased power draw, 12th Gen is a good choice. As a software developer, I appreciate a few seconds shaved off here and there. With good thermal design, 12th Gen laptops can be silent and cool (I've never heard my MSI GT77 spin up the fans, unless I tell it to with a dedicated hardware button). I understand that people have different use cases and for lot of customers laptops need to be lightweight. I'm okay with the bulk and weight. Just ran Phoronix Linux kernel compilation test (defconf), I get 74.68 sec on my laptop, on par with desktop Intel Core i7-12700K, but I can carry my "desktop" around. :) In comparison, Apple M2 result is 416 sec, AMD Ryzen 9 5900HX is 103 sec. It's not much, but it's compound gains if you compile and test a lot.
- antihero 4y ago
  Do you think the very broad loose culture of macOS users (developers/creatives - coffee shops, nomadic etc) vs Windows (most corporate stuff - workstations, meetings etc) could be some factor in how they are optimised?
  - ChuckNorris89 4y ago
    Are windows laptop users not allowed into coffee shops and MacOS users never have corporate meetings? They're just tools ffs, no need to romanticize or stereotype them.
    - coolspot 4y ago
      My local Starbucks checks every laptop. Customers with Windows OS on a laptop are asked to leave. Windows VMs are okay if not fullscreen.
      - mstaoru 4y ago
        What about ReactOS?
codewiz 4y ago
Just yesterday, I ran a few CPU benchmarks to compare my new System76 Lemur Pro (12th Gen i7-1255U) against my older ThinkPad X1G7 (10th Gen i7-10710U). Both are ultra low-power processors, so it's a fair comparison. Here are the results: https://mstdn.io/@codewiz/108785771608278574 https://mstdn.io/@codewiz/108785771608278574
- ArrayBoundCheck 4y ago
  Maybe it's my imagination but it seems like more cores isn't helping performance as much? Does it seem every core after 6 cores is about 1/2 or 1/3rd the performance gain?
rcarmo 4y ago
Although CS:GO is an FPS that can run on a potato, the GPU results are interesting. But I would love to see a Framework laptop with a Ryzen APU (I have a Lenovo with a 5700U and it is nothing short of amazing, even though it’s almost two years old by now). Provided they can do Thunderbolt, that is (I rely on that for a number of things).
webmobdev 4y ago
I hope this doesn't mean that frame.work is planning to stick with Intel processors even for its next gen laptops? Many of us are eagerly waiting for the AMD models. On a slightly different note, this is again a good example of how Intel continues to oneup AMD through its business and management practices, even when AMD has better products. Ofcourse AMD can't be imitate Intel in spending money and undercutting them (sometimes illegally), but they should certainly try to copy some of the decent practices of Intel, like for e.g. supporting hardware manufacturers by offering reference designs. China has many Intel tablets because of this. It is easier to develop hardware with Intel processors because Intel offers more support (free and paid). Something AMD needs to focus on more and fix. They really need to work on their PR and sales tactic.
ithkuil 4y ago
I'm developing in rust for $dayjob and I absolutely hated it until I got a M1 mac. CPU speed (including single core speed) absolutely made the difference. The compilation speed crossed that threshold between "a little pause" and getting distracted doing something else while waiting for a little incremental compile
- sergiosgc 4y ago
  I'm also developing in Rust, with a 12th gen i7-1270P. It's an absolute beast; I'd say it's on the range of 2x speedup vs my previous laptop (11th gen i7). I have no idea about power consumption yet (the laptop is a couple weeks old). On light load, the laptop easily crosses the 8h mark but it won't, certainly, when grinding rust compiles. The M1's power efficiency is on a different league.
dbeley 4y ago
Those figures are useless without power consumption.
thomasfl 4y ago
The Apple M1 processor should be used as a benchmark. Not other Intel processors.
tgtweak 4y ago
Can't wait for raptor lake to come out with new core architecture, higher peak clocks and more E cores.
jvanderbot 4y ago
Yes, AMD and ARM exist, but the fact that frame.work exists is a bigger win than any drawbacks of them using Intel.
CA0DA 4y ago
I'm not sure why the Framework laptop is getting so much credit for being upgradable - the main board upgrade (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mog6T9Rd93I https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mog6T9Rd93I) seems to be an identical process as my Dell Precision 5530.
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
- enragedcacti 4y ago
  legit question, does Dell offer a drop-in generational upgrade for your machine? I think the main appeals are: 1) its simple to repair or upgrade. If Dell's design is also simple to work on then that's great! 2) A culture of providing replacement and upgrade parts affordably to the end user. In addition to the I/O modules and replacement parts, so far framework has the upgradeable mainboard, an upgraded top cover with more rigidity, and an improved hinge kit.
sebastianconcpt 4y ago
Beats M1?
stargrazer 4y ago
So.... is the Framework laptop with a 12th Gen core noisy or not? Is it quiet most of the time? Do the fans become noisy during a compile or benchmark? Does it remain relatively cool? What are people's experiences with these laptops? My primary use would be C++ development with frequent large multi-core builds.
cromka 4y ago
> 11th Gen Intel® Core™ i7-1185G7 (with *16GB* of RAM) 224.49 > 12th Gen Intel® Core™ i7-1280P (with *64GB* of RAM) 110.77 > % Improvement 102.60% Are they for real?
mmcnl 4y ago
Is it far to compare 11th Gen U-series to 12th Gen P-series? Performance is higher, but this comes at the expensive of much higher power draw. I think 11th Gen U-series vs 12th Gen U-series is a more interesting comparison.
deepsquirrelnet 4y ago
If I’m working a job where I really need performance, I try my hardest to get a desktop. The last 20 years of hardware development has not replaced the workstation for even light computational workloads. My biggest frustration with remote work so far is the corporate fixation with laptops. For some types of work, performance isn’t just a convenience, but weeks of lost productivity. If the difference between the 11th and 12th generation of Intel in your laptop really moves the needle for you, you’re using the wrong form factor to do your work.

370 points by nreece 4y ago

do intel have vulkan drivers yet? XP11.11 (2018) is ancient, current release is from late last year - but more importantly XP12 is coming very soon and going to be vulkan/metal only, and afaik even the Xe intel gpus are lacking drivers.

nominusllc 4y ago

I went from saying, "if only they had an AMD" to getting a different machine in ARM and now im saying "if only they had ARM". I never realized how much heat, vibration, air blowers negatively affected me before. A framework laptop with some type of ARM or ARM-like cpu could do a lot with the space savings on cooling.

devwastaken 4y ago
Apples M1 only worked because everything is in one chip. Very different from the goals of framework. There aren't any vendors offering M1 competitors either.
- masklinn 4y ago
  > Apples M1 only worked because everything is in one chip. That’s not true in any way?
  - 3OCSzk 4y ago
    Could you elaborate why it isn't the case?
    - Nursie 4y ago
      They may be referring to the early rumours/misapprehension that the RAM was on-die and part of the SOC as well. This isn't true AFAICT.
    - masklinn 4y ago
      Because there’s no evidence for the claim, and the evidence is mostly “Apple has created a huge and complex chip”? And what does “Everything is in one chip” even mean? Because the memory certainly isn’t, it’s soldered on the package but it’s not part of the package, it just doesn’t take additional room on the main board. And there are a bunch of other chips on the mainboard Finally, it’s pretty much just following mobile / phone chip SoC design, so any other manufacturer could do the same, if they wanted to create a giant and expensive SOC. And I want to be really clear on the “giant and expensive” part: the M1 family is the sort of scale you usually see on giant workstation or server chips, the M1 Pro has 33.7 billion transistors, that’s more than a Threadripper 5995WX, a $6500 64 cores CPU. The M1 is just short of the 5950X’s transistor count (16 billions to 19.2), the M2 is above (~20).
      - audunw 4y ago
        > And what does “Everything is in one chip” even mean? I guess he's mainly thinking of GPU, which isn't unique. But there's not that many SoCs with that amount of power in one SoC. So it's close to competing with alternatives with discrete GPUs, which does increase power consumption. I believe it has integrated Flash controller too, which is very unique for a laptop/desktop chip, no? > Because the memory certainly isn’t, it’s soldered on the package but it’s not part of the package, it just doesn’t take additional room on the main board. And there are a bunch of other chips on the mainboard It's on the package so it can be as close to the SoC as possible. That decreases the capacitance of the traces, which decreases power consumption. It's not stacked on top of the SoC, which might have been even better (but harder to cool), but it's close. > Finally, it’s pretty much just following mobile / phone chip SoC design, so any other manufacturer could do the same, if they wanted to create a giant and expensive SOC. Uh, yeah, anyone could copy the M1 for a laptop/desktop product. But they haven't exactly done that yet have they? That's kind of the point? > the M1 family is the sort of scale you usually see on giant workstation or server chips Yeah, which again, almost never packs the kind of functionality Apple does into the M1. With that many transistors, on such an advanced process, you're going to have a lot of leakage currents, so Apple must have put an impressive amount of work into power management. I mean, it's not just about being an SoC with lots of things packed within the chip or extremely close to the cheap (memory). No. It's apparent that they've focused on across the entire design process. Even the choice of ARM factors into that (fewer transistors needed for instruction decoding). But I wouldn't say the original comment is completely wrong.
- mastax 4y ago
  AMD's laptop CPUs are also "everything in one chip." Intel still has a separate chipset die on the package as far as I can tell.
  - rowanG077 4y ago
    This is not true. AMD CPUs do not include NVME controllers for example. There probably are more things AMD does not do on the CPU itself.
    - paulmd 4y ago
      [citation needed] Cezanne SOC topology: https://cdn.mos.cms.futurecdn.net/ix6FrojFD7anKypadF2vKM.jpg https://cdn.mos.cms.futurecdn.net/ix6FrojFD7anKypadF2vKM.jpg Rembrandt SOC topology: https://cdn.mos.cms.futurecdn.net/8wnuFCokmeHjESuSbzYWMJ.jpg https://cdn.mos.cms.futurecdn.net/8wnuFCokmeHjESuSbzYWMJ.jpg Even on the desktop processors, there are onboard lanes dedicated to the NVMe itself, and the entire processor (including NVMe) is capable of booting without a supporting chipset at all - the "X300 chipset" is actually not a chipset at all, it is just using the SOC itself without an external chipset, and you do not lose NVMe functionality. Not sure if you are using some really weird meaning of "NVMe controller" that doesn't match what anyone else means?
      - deleted 4y ago
        [deleted]
      - rowanG077 4y ago
        I meant the controller that manages the NAND cells, I assumed it would be called NVMe controller. Essentially the IC that the "NVMe controller" in your image talks to.
        paulmd 4y ago
        That would normally be called a "flash controller" and yeah, of course that lives on the SSD. (unless it doesn't - eMMC doesn't normally have a flash controller and you just do direct writes to the flash cells... as do some IOFusion PCIe cards that are just flash directly attached to PCIe with no controller. Sometimes that functionality is just software-based. Flash cards (eg microSD) usually also do not have a flash controller directly either.) Anyway, it's true though that Apple does push the flash controller functionality into the SOC while AMD does not, Apple implements their SSD in a non-standard fashion, that's why it's not compatible with off-the-shelf drives. The flash is just flash on a board, I don't even think it's NVMe compatible at all either. So if you want to be maximally pedantic... neither does Apple implement onboard NVMe controllers, just flash controllers ;)
wingmanjd 4y ago
Is there any other ARM processors in Apple's M1 class of performance? I haven't kept up with progress on the CPU front.
- specto 4y ago
  Unfortunately, not even close.
  - jjtheblunt 4y ago
    unfortunately? as in no competition to drive progress?
    - nwah1 4y ago
      Not too many companies have a market cap over a trillion dollars, and if you don't then you can forget about competing on the upcoming process nodes that will require enormous capital. Samsung's internal processor division seems to be sucking. Google is trying it half-heartedly like they do with nearly everything. Nvidia and AMD haven't really tried to compete for the desktop ARM market, and Intel certainly hasn't. Qualcomm has rolled their mobile chips for laptops, but they remain mobile chips in a larger form factor. So Apple is in a class of its own for desktop-grade ARM CPUs.
      - deleted 4y ago
        [deleted]
      - jagger27 4y ago
        Hopefully Qualcomm’s Nuvia acquisition will bear some fruit sometime soon.
      - varispeed 4y ago
        I hope they move into workstation. Something like a quad M2 MAX would probably sell like there is no tomorrow.
    - hiyer 4y ago
nwah1 4y ago
I don't doubt those benefits are real, but I recently bought a Samsung Galaxy Book with Intel 12th gen and integrated graphics, and it is actually fantastic. Super thin, lightweight, silent, and low heat, while still boasting 12 extremely fast cores. And it was very affordable. It is very weird for me to buy a laptop where I have almost no complaints... and Samsung did a splendid job with all the fit and finish. I'm sure a lot of it is in fact thanks to the non-CPU upgrades like DDR5, since CPU is rarely the bottleneck, but it is all the same to me. This to me sounds like the experience people were praising the M1 chips for, and tbh Intel actually delivered for once. I say this as someone who had been solidly in the AMD camp for a long time. Thanks to competition, Intel now has to be good. Weird!
- xuki 4y ago
  How is the battery life? M1 laptops can easily last the whole day without plugging for most users.
  - nwah1 4y ago
    I am able to get 4 or 5 hours of intensive programming done on battery power... running multiple IDEs, Android emulators, browsers, etc. I've never tried it with a normal usage pattern because I only use battery power for working.
    - jxi 4y ago
      That’s pretty bad compared to m1. Less than half the battery life. Also Samsung laptops don’t last in my experience. They make short term tradeoffs at the expense of long term reliability.
      - bpodgursky 4y ago
        Maybe, but 4-5 hours is solidly the point at which it doesn't matter at all to me. I haven't had trouble finding an outlet for years, even at airports, planes, coffeeshops, etc.
kcb 4y ago
I've played with an AMD 6800u laptop and I would say it's the ideal x86 laptop chip right now. Normal usage at the 12w mode or light gaming at 20w mode was super impressive. Even though 12th Gen Intel chips have made great performance gains Intel is still relying on unsustainable high turbo boosts to get the benchmark numbers. I just recently stumbled across these two otherwise identical laptops. https://psref.lenovo.com/syspool/Sys/PDF/Lenovo/Lenovo_Slim_7_ProX_14IAH7/Lenovo_Slim_7_ProX_14IAH7_Spec.pdf https://psref.lenovo.com/syspool/Sys/PDF/Lenovo/Lenovo_Slim_... https://psref.lenovo.com/syspool/Sys/PDF/Lenovo/Lenovo_Slim_7_ProX_14ARH7/Lenovo_Slim_7_ProX_14ARH7_Spec.pdf https://psref.lenovo.com/syspool/Sys/PDF/Lenovo/Lenovo_Slim_... The AMD version is rated for 20% greater battery life just from the CPU difference.
- ZuLuuuuuu 4y ago
  Exactly. Not just 1 model but you can compare identical ThinkPad models as well and AMD versions have significantly better battery life. Not only that, even last year's identical models with 11th Gen Intel CPUs have better battery life than their new 12th Gen models. So Intel's power efficiency actually decreased compared to last year, even though they introduced the hybrid architecture. In some instances Alder Lake CPUs slightly edge out Apple's CPUs in performance, but with a terrible battery life (~4 hours of real world battery life vs >10 hours on Apple laptops) and noisy fans. AMD on the other hand seems to have focused on getting a good balance this year. 6800U models have significant performance improvements over the last gen while improving the battery life as well. I am thinking of buying a new laptop this year, but I am waiting for the AMD models. For anyone interested, these are the models I am waiting for: https://psref.lenovo.com/Product/ThinkBook/ThinkBook_13s_G4_ARB https://psref.lenovo.com/Product/ThinkBook/ThinkBook_13s_G4_... https://psref.lenovo.com/Product/ThinkPad/ThinkPad_X13_Gen_3_AMD https://psref.lenovo.com/Product/ThinkPad/ThinkPad_X13_Gen_3... Both have much better battery life than their Intel counterparts: ThinkBook 13s Gen 4 (AMD): 14 hours ThinkBook 13s Gen 4 (Intel): 10.9 hours ThinkPaf X13 Gen 3 (AMD): 15.68 hours ThinkPad X13 Gen 3 (Intel): 11.8 hours These numbers are usually lower in real life, but they are comparable with each other.
  - microtonal 4y ago
freedomben 4y ago
I have absolutely no data or information to back this up, but I predict a RISC-V based Framework within the next 5 years. And I'll be one of the first customers to buy one.
- selectodude 4y ago
  Why wait? https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2022/07/first-risc-v-laptop-expected-to-ship-in-september/ https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2022/07/first-risc-v-laptop-...
  - freedomben 4y ago
    That's super exciting, but I'm not familiar with Xcalibyte. are they a good and reputable maker?
    - necovek 4y ago
      Is frame.work a good and reputable maker? Not saying they won't turn out to be, but they are still young considering the space they are in. Similar holds for any other hw maker that is only starting out!
      - tasubotadas 4y ago
        Or any maker that starts using RISC
      - freedomben 4y ago
        Yes I think frame.work is a good and reputable maker. They are indeed still young, but they've made and kept a number of big early promises, and have been consistently shipping. There are some bugs/quality concerns but I'm confident they'll work them out. I've bought hardware before though from companies I'd never heard of, and either never received it or when I did it was much poorer quality than advertised or was so long after the order that I'd nearly forgotten about it. Would hate for that to happen with xcalibyte
- 4y ago
ben-schaaf 4y ago
Lowering the power of an intel/AMD CPU enough to passively cool it would yield way more performance than currently commercially available arm CPUs. (Obviously excluding CPUs that aren't purchasable like Apple's)
- ido 4y ago
  Does that include the Apple M1 / M2 lines?
  - ben-schaaf 4y ago
    I have absolutely no reason to believe Apple will ever sell those to third parties. I've edited the comment to clarify.
KingOfCoders 4y ago
My XPS didn't blow. My MacBook Pros (Intel) always did. As others have shown heat management in Intel MacBook Pros were abysmal and not comparable to other Intel Laptops. Yes, the M1 is a huge power efficiency jump forward, would love affordable ARM desktop machines, but a lot of the MacBook Pro (Intel) problems are from very bad heat management. [Edit] My understanding is, that a lot of power efficiency and performance comes from the large cache - not only ARM - which is more efficient than main memory and faster - also see AMD X3D. (per core AFAIK) Ryzen 7 L1/L2: 32/512, M1 L1/L2 192/3072
varispeed 4y ago
> I never realized how much heat, vibration, air blowers negatively affected me before. It's like a constant drilling sound that gets into your brain and makes thoughts flow like through the mud in the full sunlight. For that reason, despite that I don't like Apple and I am not a fan of macOS, I decided to buy M1 MBP. This is a lifechanging experience, that laptop. You can even put it on low power mode and won't lose much perfomance and it is absolutely silent. Even if you run a prolonged heavy task and fans kick in, you will barely hear them (ha hope it won't get worse over time and that there will be a way to disconnect them if that is going to be a problem). Oh and no coil whine. Even if my XPS 15 miraculously don't have fans on, you can be sure their noise is inconveniently replaced by distinct coil whine that is just as annoying as fans. I am probably going to buy another macbook, this time the Air one just for leisure and learning.
- asdff 4y ago
  I'm honestly impressed that so many people in these threads work in environments quiet enough where the fan is the largest source of annoyance. If I'm inside its drowned out by my window AC unit. If I'm outside on the patio its drowned out by my neighbor's window AC unit. If I take it to work then its the hvac vent over my desk that's the dominant source of noise, followed by the construction site across the street. Usually I use third party tools to pin my fan at max speed when I'm doing anything because it keeps the keyboard cooler.

Temporal_Trout 4y ago

In the first table, in the first row (11th Gen), the professional column is missing the core count. It currently says "(Up to 4.8 GHz, Cores)" and by https://ark.intel.com/content/www/us/en/ark/products/208664/intel-core-i71185g7-processor-12m-cache-up-to-4-80-ghz-with-ipu.html https://ark.intel.com/content/www/us/en/ark/products/208664/... it should be "(Up to 4.8 GHz, 4 Cores)".

nrp 4y ago
Thanks for catching that! I’ve forwarded it to the team.

procodr 4y ago

For "Linux kernel compilation speed" they have compared a 16 GB model with 64 GB model for achieving 102.60% improvement! It's so funny =)

walrus01 4y ago
GB, not Gb
- procodr 4y ago
  yes, tanx
nrp 4y ago
Yes, we intended to do an apples to apples comparison, but didn’t find the necessary units on hand when writing the post.
- 1R 4y ago
  Saying that you intended to do something, and in the same breath that you were subsequently unable to do said thing, because you couldn't find what was required is very discouraging for a prospective customer. Also, "benchmarking" dissimilar systems comes across as marketing scam, scammy marketing, appealing to the deceivable, which some might view as reprehensible :(
  - rsyring 4y ago
    Reprehensible...really? There's lots of that in the world, pretty sure this isn't it. They put the memory difference right there in the stats, it's not like they are hiding it. Lighten up a bit. :)
- Dunedan 4y ago
  Why didn't you just move the 16GB of RAM from the 11th Gen model to the 12th Gen model? Both use DDR4 after all, don't they?

itvision 4y ago

For MT performance and graphics Ryzen 5800U and 6800U are even better.

bwhitty 4y ago
6800U is awesome from what I’ve seen — better efficiency by far, and legit integrated graphics better than Xe — but it is vanishingly rare, even months after announcement. The scale Intel has in manufacturing mobile CPUs is still unmatched.
- brokenmachine 4y ago
  >6800U is awesome from what I’ve seen — better efficiency by far The 6800U is only a 5% efficiency increase over 5800U, I agree that the GPU is _much_ better though. https://www.notebookcheck.net/AMD-Ryzen-7-6800U-Efficiency-Review-Zen3-beats-Intel-Alder-Lake.623763.0.html https://www.notebookcheck.net/AMD-Ryzen-7-6800U-Efficiency-R...
  - ben-schaaf 4y ago
    That article actually shows %5 worse efficiency over a 5600U in a heavy single threaded workload. It's a bit apples to oranges and there's a lot more to efficiency on a laptop than heavy single core workloads.
    - deleted 4y ago
      [deleted]

mmmeff 4y ago

Cool, now compare it to an M2

corralina 4y ago
For some people comparing to Apple is useless - Macbooks could be a thousand times faster and last for a year on battery, they still would be 100% useless to me because they don't run the software I need on a daily basis.
- theonemind 4y ago
  What software do you find irreplaceable?
  - deleted 4y ago
    [deleted]
kcb 4y ago
Performance wise, quite favorable. Battery and power consumption, not so much.
- senttoschool 4y ago
  Performance wise, the M2 is still faster.
  - cbg0 4y ago
    It isn't https://nanoreview.net/en/cpu-compare/intel-core-i7-12700h-vs-apple-m2 https://nanoreview.net/en/cpu-compare/intel-core-i7-12700h-v...
    - senttoschool 4y ago
      M2 is faster. Faster ST, GPU, video editing, AI and at significantly lower power. It loses on MT but that's because we don't have the M2 Pro/Max yet. M2 is just the entry-level SoC being compared to Intel's very best. Also, try running the benchmarks unplugged. Intel's performance will instantly drop by 25 - 50%. M2 will stay exactly the same.

stewbrew 4y ago

What I don't like about framework notebooks is that they seem to be mostly interested in speed, which is why they seemed to choose these P-series CPUs. With a notebook, I'm much more interested in energy consumption (how long can I work off grid), emissions like fan noise and the like. Why no U-series CPUs?

kcb 4y ago
Restricting TDP is generally an option on laptops if you really wanted to. Not sure if Framework provides any out of the box TDP switching but software like ThrottleStop can do it.
- R0b0t1 4y ago
  Yeah. I tried locking some of my older CPUs to, say, 700MHz. Still entirely usable unless I started compiling something, say. Issue is Intel tries to race to halt which demonstrably saves more power on average. The power consumption of your chip probably is some intrinsic quality related to how the package and die are set up.
- lhl 4y ago
  Also on Linux most distros have thermald installed and you can change the config to limit the max temperature to defacto throttle power usage. Alternatively, you can modify the RAPL limits to cap power usage directly to taste: https://community.frame.work/t/thermal-management-on-linux-with-rapl-limits/17416 https://community.frame.work/t/thermal-management-on-linux-w...
nrp 4y ago
The U and P series parts are actually the same dies on 12th Gen, but binned. If you set the Power Mode to Best Power Efficiency on Windows or the equivalent power limiting in Linux, you can make a P behave pretty similarly to what a U would (with the Intel DTT settings we used).
- wtallis 4y ago
  Isn't it the H and P series that use the same die, while the U series is a much smaller die (2 instead of 6 P cores)?

anderfernandes1 4y ago

2muchcoffeeman 4y ago

Surely the real story here is that Framework have released a CPU upgrade for a laptop?

nrp 4y ago
Yep! We released an announcement around starting shipments of this two weeks ago. Our blog post this week was just a round-up of benchmarks both from reviewers and from us, to respond to common questions we got around performance improvements.
- 2muchcoffeeman 4y ago
  Unfortunately you don’t ship to my country!
- joyhumin 4y ago
  What's the plan to open the region in New Zealand?

CarVac 4y ago

Very glad I ordered my Framework with the 1240P. The performance benefits of the higher-end parts seem dubious.

jacknews 4y ago

The coolest thing isn't just the cpu upgrade, but that the whole mainboard is something like a standard. Other laptops have weird shaped boards just for that one model. If this 'standard' takes off it could start an entire ecosystem of modular hardware. That's exciting. I'm hoping for a 'Framework surface', a 'Framework tv', a 'Framework 400', etc.

lhl 4y ago
An even cooler thing is that since the mechanicals are all published, anyone can actually make their own relatively easily, like this Framework Tablet: https://www.reddit.com/r/framework/comments/wgzwv1/two_big_drops_today_ive_released_v13_of_the/ https://www.reddit.com/r/framework/comments/wgzwv1/two_big_d... * https://github.com/whatthefilament/Framework-Tablet https://github.com/whatthefilament/Framework-Tablet * https://www.instructables.com/Framework-Tablet-Assembly-Manual/ https://www.instructables.com/Framework-Tablet-Assembly-Manu...
- xattt 4y ago
  Let me just get the tooling set up on the dining room table, I am sure my spouse won’t mind …
  - azeirah 4y ago
    You're not allowed to have hobbies or tinker around? :(
    - bejelentkezni 4y ago
      I think it's more of a "people are getting tired of internet DIY projects that require thousands of dollars of tooling and existing materials."
      - yencabulator 4y ago
        You're in a startup-biased forum. If you don't like it as a hobby, how about thinking how the openness is good for business? Your buddy can start a company making Framework-compatible tablets, or a mini server rack, or Framework-compatible keyboards (ortholinear layout please!), etc.

dcw303 4y ago

I've been drooling over the framework laptops for a while now, can't wait until they're available in Japan.

pram 4y ago

The mainboard is really great. I’m reminded of the i9 NUC “compute element” and I’m disappointed Intel hasn’t really done anything more innovative in these kinds of form factors. Seems like they could easily standardize a swappable module like this for laptops and small computers. https://hardwarecanucks.com/wp-content/uploads/Intel-NUC-9-Extreme-Review-7.png https://hardwarecanucks.com/wp-content/uploads/Intel-NUC-9-E...

chx 4y ago

I so badly wish these things had TrackPoints :( the patents have expired...

killingtime74 4y ago
Since the keyboard is replaceable you could make your own and also sell to other like-minded people?
- exyi 4y ago
  That's quite a bit more expensive than complaining on HN, or just buying a Lenovo
  - lhl 4y ago
    The HP EliteBooks (and the new Dev One Linux variant) also have trackpoints. Just in case anyone's interested in making their own though, I've seen a few DIY trackpoint projects over the years (mostly on custom mechs, not laptop keyboards though). Here's a writeup on one: https://edryd.org/posts/tp-mk/ https://edryd.org/posts/tp-mk/
    - nicolaslem 4y ago
      > The HP EliteBooks also have trackpoints. Not anymore, they are gone with Gen 9 :(
    - vladvasiliu 4y ago
      > The HP EliteBooks (and the new Dev One Linux variant) also have trackpoints. Are those supposed to be any good? I have an EB Gen8 with one, but I find it horrendous. I'd like to know whether it's because I have no idea how to use it, or if my Linux setup is broken, or if the hardware is actually shitty.
      - f1refly 4y ago
        I had a company provided 2019 dell at my last job and the trackpoint was barely comparable to that of a 2011 thinkpad. If that's the only trackpoint experience is that some people get I understand why they'd never touch one again.

User23 4y ago

Title should reflect this is about some OEM and not Intel's offering per se.

wodenokoto 4y ago

After Apples announcement of M1, I feel like it is mandatory for such a laptop test to discuss power per watt and for how long you can game on the 11 vs 12th gen processor. I also feel like it is worth mentioning that 12th gen laptop is priced ~ $150 over the 11th gen. If you're coding against an online build system and 11 last an extra hour (or whatever), it's a no-brainer to stick with the old one.

blackoil 4y ago
As per most reviews 12th gen is more power efficient. Particularly for the use cases you have mentioned, as P cores wouldn't be working most of the time and E core are much more power efficient.
ddorian43 4y ago
You can't game on M1 or Mac AFAIK
- preisschild 4y ago
  With MacOS probably never in a good way as MacOS doesn't support standard graphic APIs (Vulkan) In the near future you might if you install linux. Using box64 for amd64 translation and steam proton for windows translation if necessary.
- sercand 4y ago
  Lots of people just don't game at all. Also, a lot of people like me prefer different gaming and work setup (and different rooms) in order to achieve better work-life balance. I build games on my M1 machine, just don't play on it.
  - bodge5000 4y ago
    How is M1 for game dev? I've been thinking of getting one for my own personal laptop, but have had a few concerns, mostly just due to the issues of building software on a totally different platform to the majority of your target users (which'll be Windows, x86). I used to have some compatibility worries but I'd guess they've gone away now.

philliphaydon 4y ago

I’m rather disappointed in 12th Gen for mobile. I have a AMD 5800h Lenovo laptop and a 12700 Dell. The dell stutters, fans spin, etc. the Lenovo is just rock solid and fast. Never stutters or slows down. Fans spin up only when playing games. I wish framework would do an AMD laptop. But Linus put them in touch with AMD and they done nothing.

blackoil 4y ago
Building a new laptop from scratch is time-taking and costly. So Framework may rightly be spending their time on optimising product, reducing cost and reaching more countries.
- philliphaydon 4y ago
  Linus said he put them in touch and they haven't even spoken to each other. It's going to take time, but they aren't even engaging at the moment...
  - gkkirilov 4y ago
    small companies have less resources?
    - philliphaydon 4y ago
      Which is why it will take time… but they are not even entertaining the idea.
      - qzw 4y ago
        I would love to see them add an AMD (and even ARM) option, but right now I applaud them for being tight-lipped about any future developments. What would they gain by acknowledging that they’re entertaining such ideas? People postponing their purchases, endlessly asking for ETA updates, getting mad when there are delays, etc. They’re much better off saying nothing and doing the work in the background. I also would understand if they choose not to offer a second CPU platform at this point. From their standpoint, it’s hugely expensive and time consuming to develop, potentially doubles their QA and support costs, makes their supply chain and inventory story more complicated, and probably makes their relationship with Intel a little worse. And realistically, they won’t get double the sales from just having an AMD option. So I would be pleasantly surprised if they offer an AMD option within 3 years, but I’m not holding my breath.

preisschild 4y ago

AMD and high performance ARM mainboards would be nice.

SpacePortKnight 4y ago

In a laptop, I care far more about battery life and the fan noise. However, Intel 12th gen is only able to pull these impressive performance feats due to very high turbo boost clocks. It's not that Intel is bad, it's still pretty great but in the age of M1 I wish Intel released a processor with similar power consumption. I use my Intel i5-1240p with turbo boost disabled when on battery. Here's the geekbench with TB disabled. https://browser.geekbench.com/v5/cpu/16497299 https://browser.geekbench.com/v5/cpu/16497299

sroussey 4y ago
Ouch
augustl 4y ago
How is 12th gen compared to 10th gen, in your experience? My XPS 13 on a 10th gen i7 just becomes absolute syrup on battery, even if I put it in high performance mode.
- okasaki 4y ago
  I have an XPS 17 with 12th gen and it drains around 50% battery per hour on a zoom call. edit: My laptop has a i7-12700H, which uses more power than the cpu in the framework laptop. More thoughts: The laptop is pretty much always plugged in. When I'm out I carry a little 60W charger with me. However for other reasons I wouldn't recommend the XPS 17. I have a Lenovo legion 7 at home that I'm more happy with (cheaper, better performance, lots of ports, etc)
  - 867-5309 4y ago
    the one with a 17" 4K HDR touchscreen and RTX 3000 series? they will deplete the battery far quicker than the processor
  - augustl 4y ago
    Thanks for the real-world numbers! This is good for my emotional state, as I've switched from Windows to a MB Pro solely because of the battery life and performance of the M1 Pro chip.

midjji 4y ago

I would have been impressed a decade ago, but this is just an extremely marginal improvement, even if you can trust them, which you know intel, so you cant.

lynguist 4y ago

I don’t like that we call it 12th Gen Intel. It would be more correct to just call it the 12000 series Intel. Intel didn’t change CPU generations from 6000-10000 series, they’re all the same generation. Just because the years advance and they refresh their products with increased product numbers doesn’t mean that they’re a new generation of products.

cbg0 4y ago
Aside from being pedantic, why is this relevant? I'm sure most people that care enough know that it isn't Intel's 12th generation.
- lynguist 4y ago
  It breaks where generations and numbers mix. While 12xxx and 12xx are Alder Lake, 11xxx is Rocket Lake (based on Ice Lake) and 11xx is Tiger Lake. 10xxx is based on Skylake, 10xx is Ice Lake. That’s where it’s misleading. The number is only a product number that shows the approximate year of release for these mixed product lines. Because of this, you can’t say things like “compared to the previous generation” any more. 12xxx is two generations newer than 11xxx. 10xxx is the same generation as 9xxx.

deleted 4y ago

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sharmin123 4y ago

qyahz 4y ago

I don't care how fast M1 is if it can't run my 32-bit x86 Windows programs. It may as well not exist.

nightfly 4y ago
Good for you?
thijsvandien 4y ago
It can though, if you install the ARM build of Windows (in a VM), which translates instructions like Rosetta 2 does: https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/arm/overview#support-for-existing-windows-apps-on-arm https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/arm/overview#suppor....
theonemind 4y ago
What 32 bit x86 Windows programs do you still use?

_odey 4y ago

Maybe I'm spoiled, but it feels like an article like this would have turned out way better if they contracted Michael Larabel from Phoronix to do an in depth benchmark run with both versions of the laptop comparing multiple type of workloads, temperature, performance per watt (or if they would have used the full Phoronix test suite themselves). Although there is nothing wrong with the current one, it feels a bit... shallow on details.

_odey 4y ago
Something a little like this: https://www.phoronix.com/review/apple-m2-linux https://www.phoronix.com/review/apple-m2-linux

AndrianV 4y ago

Ryzen 5800U and 6800U are even better than its predecessors in terms of MT performance and graphics.

mstaoru 4y ago

I think for those who primarily work on AC and do not mind increased power draw, 12th Gen is a good choice. As a software developer, I appreciate a few seconds shaved off here and there. With good thermal design, 12th Gen laptops can be silent and cool (I've never heard my MSI GT77 spin up the fans, unless I tell it to with a dedicated hardware button). I understand that people have different use cases and for lot of customers laptops need to be lightweight. I'm okay with the bulk and weight. Just ran Phoronix Linux kernel compilation test (defconf), I get 74.68 sec on my laptop, on par with desktop Intel Core i7-12700K, but I can carry my "desktop" around. :) In comparison, Apple M2 result is 416 sec, AMD Ryzen 9 5900HX is 103 sec. It's not much, but it's compound gains if you compile and test a lot.

antihero 4y ago
Do you think the very broad loose culture of macOS users (developers/creatives - coffee shops, nomadic etc) vs Windows (most corporate stuff - workstations, meetings etc) could be some factor in how they are optimised?
- ChuckNorris89 4y ago
  Are windows laptop users not allowed into coffee shops and MacOS users never have corporate meetings? They're just tools ffs, no need to romanticize or stereotype them.
  - coolspot 4y ago
    My local Starbucks checks every laptop. Customers with Windows OS on a laptop are asked to leave. Windows VMs are okay if not fullscreen.
    - mstaoru 4y ago
      What about ReactOS?

codewiz 4y ago

Just yesterday, I ran a few CPU benchmarks to compare my new System76 Lemur Pro (12th Gen i7-1255U) against my older ThinkPad X1G7 (10th Gen i7-10710U). Both are ultra low-power processors, so it's a fair comparison. Here are the results: https://mstdn.io/@codewiz/108785771608278574 https://mstdn.io/@codewiz/108785771608278574

ArrayBoundCheck 4y ago
Maybe it's my imagination but it seems like more cores isn't helping performance as much? Does it seem every core after 6 cores is about 1/2 or 1/3rd the performance gain?

rcarmo 4y ago

Although CS:GO is an FPS that can run on a potato, the GPU results are interesting. But I would love to see a Framework laptop with a Ryzen APU (I have a Lenovo with a 5700U and it is nothing short of amazing, even though it’s almost two years old by now). Provided they can do Thunderbolt, that is (I rely on that for a number of things).

webmobdev 4y ago

I hope this doesn't mean that frame.work is planning to stick with Intel processors even for its next gen laptops? Many of us are eagerly waiting for the AMD models. On a slightly different note, this is again a good example of how Intel continues to oneup AMD through its business and management practices, even when AMD has better products. Ofcourse AMD can't be imitate Intel in spending money and undercutting them (sometimes illegally), but they should certainly try to copy some of the decent practices of Intel, like for e.g. supporting hardware manufacturers by offering reference designs. China has many Intel tablets because of this. It is easier to develop hardware with Intel processors because Intel offers more support (free and paid). Something AMD needs to focus on more and fix. They really need to work on their PR and sales tactic.

ithkuil 4y ago

I'm developing in rust for $dayjob and I absolutely hated it until I got a M1 mac. CPU speed (including single core speed) absolutely made the difference. The compilation speed crossed that threshold between "a little pause" and getting distracted doing something else while waiting for a little incremental compile

sergiosgc 4y ago
I'm also developing in Rust, with a 12th gen i7-1270P. It's an absolute beast; I'd say it's on the range of 2x speedup vs my previous laptop (11th gen i7). I have no idea about power consumption yet (the laptop is a couple weeks old). On light load, the laptop easily crosses the 8h mark but it won't, certainly, when grinding rust compiles. The M1's power efficiency is on a different league.

dbeley 4y ago

Those figures are useless without power consumption.

thomasfl 4y ago

The Apple M1 processor should be used as a benchmark. Not other Intel processors.

tgtweak 4y ago

Can't wait for raptor lake to come out with new core architecture, higher peak clocks and more E cores.

jvanderbot 4y ago

Yes, AMD and ARM exist, but the fact that frame.work exists is a bigger win than any drawbacks of them using Intel.

CA0DA 4y ago

I'm not sure why the Framework laptop is getting so much credit for being upgradable - the main board upgrade (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mog6T9Rd93I https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mog6T9Rd93I) seems to be an identical process as my Dell Precision 5530.

deleted 4y ago
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enragedcacti 4y ago
legit question, does Dell offer a drop-in generational upgrade for your machine? I think the main appeals are: 1) its simple to repair or upgrade. If Dell's design is also simple to work on then that's great! 2) A culture of providing replacement and upgrade parts affordably to the end user. In addition to the I/O modules and replacement parts, so far framework has the upgradeable mainboard, an upgraded top cover with more rigidity, and an improved hinge kit.

sebastianconcpt 4y ago

Beats M1?

stargrazer 4y ago

So.... is the Framework laptop with a 12th Gen core noisy or not? Is it quiet most of the time? Do the fans become noisy during a compile or benchmark? Does it remain relatively cool? What are people's experiences with these laptops? My primary use would be C++ development with frequent large multi-core builds.

cromka 4y ago

> 11th Gen Intel® Core™ i7-1185G7 (with *16GB* of RAM) 224.49 > 12th Gen Intel® Core™ i7-1280P (with *64GB* of RAM) 110.77 > % Improvement 102.60% Are they for real?

mmcnl 4y ago

Is it far to compare 11th Gen U-series to 12th Gen P-series? Performance is higher, but this comes at the expensive of much higher power draw. I think 11th Gen U-series vs 12th Gen U-series is a more interesting comparison.

deepsquirrelnet 4y ago

If I’m working a job where I really need performance, I try my hardest to get a desktop. The last 20 years of hardware development has not replaced the workstation for even light computational workloads. My biggest frustration with remote work so far is the corporate fixation with laptops. For some types of work, performance isn’t just a convenience, but weeks of lost productivity. If the difference between the 11th and 12th generation of Intel in your laptop really moves the needle for you, you’re using the wrong form factor to do your work.