20 ms·

FairEmail stopping development after Google falsely flags app as spyware

436 points by worble 4y ago

thayne 4y ago
So, google is flagging an app which competes with an app they make (gmail) as spyware without any real path of recourse, and effectively blocking it from a platform they control? Could this be grounds for an anti-trust suit?
Nasreddin_Hodja 4y ago
But why are they stopping development? Google is not the only place. I prefer f-droid if an app is available there.
nelblu 4y ago
This sucks, Marcel is a great developer. I have donated to this project a few times and I have been using this app for quite some time now. He is very responsive to your emails and questions. I hope he continues to develop.
worble 4y ago
Link to the main website: https://email.faircode.eu/ https://email.faircode.eu/ (HN wouldn't let me post it)
bronikowski 4y ago
That's not great. I just recommended a paid version to a friend.
- icc97 4y ago
  You can still get it from f-droid (https://f-droid.org/en/packages/eu.faircode.email/ https://f-droid.org/en/packages/eu.faircode.email/). It still works great even if there is no further development. I much prefer it to the K-9 email client. The main thing I love is that it blocks all images by default whilst still keeping the email readable.
tut-urut-utut 4y ago
Google should be ashamed. Just cancel an app without a possibility to actually appeal to the person. Maybe in this case, Google didn't act in bad faith, but having such a system in place has a method. It's something every developer should have in mind before deciding to develop anything on Google platform.
- prox 4y ago
  Yup, another case of the Monopoly of Google.
  - charcircuit 4y ago
    It's not like you can't get the app on android anymore. You can download it right now from fdroid.
    - mdrzn 4y ago
      He won't be maintaining or supporting it anymore.
    - Barrin92 4y ago
      I would wager the amount of android users who even know what fdroid is, is < 5%, if not much lower. Getting flagged as spyware or booted from the Play Store effectively destroys any project that relies on funding.
    - prox 4y ago
      It’s kind of missing the point of having a company shutting down your business without much recourse for objection. I currently have to deal with Google on a matter, and the lengths I have to go through to even get a response is ridiculous. And this is on their ads platform, so technically I am their best kind of client who brings in money. And there is no alternative, that is the monopoly.
    - FabHK 4y ago
      From the author (in the linked thread): > If the app can't be in the Play store anymore, there is no point in continuing supporting this app because about 99% of the users download the app from the Play store. And some more context: --- Begin quote --- The balance The few euros I receive in return for what's being offered and the fun of developing things are no compensation for the thousands of questions I answer every month, for unfair Play store reviews and for stress about unclear Google requirements. The verdict I have not reached a conclusion yet, but the question I am asking myself is why I would continue with the project. Maybe it is the moment, with a sick girlfriend, but I currently don't see it. Alternatives GitHub only version: 98% of the audience will be lost. Strip down the app: more bad reviews Paid support: more bad reviews Stop answering questions: more bad reviews Bad reviews will shift the balance only in the wrong direction. Core problem Google. There is no sensible way to appeal in case of bad reviews or alleged violations of Play store policies. People. They are generally pretty demanding and on the other hand everything should be free. Myself. An old and grumpy developer, who maybe should retired. Input is welcome. --- End quote ---
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
Jenk 4y ago
It's difficult not to assume some kind of hidden "anti-privacy apps" agenda when seeing things like this. Even more difficult to test this given Google continues to violate their obligation for transparency.
- alaricus 4y ago
  This is textbook anti-competitive behaviour.
dt3ft 4y ago
The author has every right to stop accepting the uncalled for abuse from users and drop development and support. I hope he can direct his attention to things that give him joy instead.
- pietro72ohboy 4y ago
  What abuse are you talking about? Google banned the app. That's it. I have donated to this app and I am genuinely happy with Marcel's efforts to add features. Users aren't always the problem.
  - k0k0r0 4y ago
    I'd argue choosing to use PlayStore for downloading Apps is already abuse. It's negligience towards the creators. On the other hand you don't need to put your app there, except for maybe if you want to attract some users./s
  - sodality2 4y ago
    Marcel made several references to the very high volume of support requests and how it contributed to the problem.
  - BeefWellington 4y ago
    Indeed, I would donate again were Marcel to continue development via pure sideloading. FairEmail is REALLY REALLY good.
  - barterr 4y ago
    He talks about users expectations and unfair reviews a bit in a few comments on that page, I imagine there's more I didn't read
    - deleted 4y ago
      [deleted]
    - dt3ft 4y ago
      This is what I was referring to. Thank you for clarifying.
hkt 4y ago
Google are vile. Decisions like this should always be appealable to an independent tribunal, the way that employment disputes are. I'd go so far as to suggest that app developers are de facto employees, on that note: a recent ruling in the UK against Uber suggests that those who rely on such platforms are entitled to protections. I'd suggest that could apply here, too.
- jaywalk 4y ago
  > I'd go so far as to suggest that app developers are de facto employees Google is wrong here, but so is this suggestion. Nothing about publishing on an app store fits the definition of an employee.
  - hkt 4y ago
    In the UK we have a category of "worker" which is between self employed and employed. I strongly suspect the fact that google play is the sole marketplace for most apps has an effect that brings people into that definition. It is about whether or not a business is captive, and whether it relies entirely on one platform for its customers. These things are what got GMB their victory over Uber in the employment tribunal.
privacyking 4y ago
Shame. This is the only decent android email app. Another one killed by Google.
lizardactivist 4y ago
Google and the U.S. monopoly on e-mail and communication must burn.
nonrandomstring 4y ago
What is happening with Google? Seems there have been quite a number of "Google broke it" stories flying around - or am I just seeing confirmation bias as my negative experiences of Google increase daily. Search is awful. It can't deliver mail reliably. Is Google broken inside and turning into a hostile entity?
- e3bc54b2 4y ago
  > What is happening with Google? They lived long enough to see themselves become a villain.
  - aidenn0 4y ago
    It's not the app store we need, but it's the one we deserve.
- Sebb767 4y ago
  In my anecdotal experience, there have been a few outrages a month over something Google has f-ed up on HN for years now. I'm not too happy with them, either, but you also have to factor in Google's size - at a billion users, they're bound to have a lot of unhappy ones, even if they would be perfect. Lastly, HN has been successfully used for contacting Google support in the past, so this also increases the number of posts.
  - thfuran 4y ago
    >also have to factor in Google's size - at a billion users, they're bound to have a lot of unhappy ones, even if they would be perfect Sure, but the things that Google does to make some of their users unhappy and the total lack of recourse Google makes available to them are decidedly far from perfect. That some people are going to be unhappy no matter what is beside the point.
- Ekaros 4y ago
  They are the other big player. So of course things happen there as lot of entities or nearly all of them actually deal with them. Doesn't mean their decisions or products aren't getting worse for users.
jasonvorhe 4y ago
Not to diss the developer, but am I really the only one who can't stand the arcane UI? Props for keeping up the apk though. For everyone using the app I hope it'll live on as fork.
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
- k0k0r0 4y ago
  Did you actally read the thread? His rage-quit feels actually quite tragic right now. Additionally to the insane problems with Google and the PlayStore-enviroment/ecosystem, his girlfriend is currently sick, and taking care of her is his priority. I'd find it more appropriate if the (current)top-comment doesn't casually criticize some simple looks of the app as if nothing. I mean if somebody's drowning right now next to me, I don't want to hear commentary about how shitty her/his shoes look like. Well, you didn't choose to be top-comment right now for everybody to see this like on a silver plate, but to everybody else... In real life I'd suggest: maybe discuss this on some other day. Edit: Not top-comment anymore.
- Aachen 4y ago
  Yes. I have absolutely no problems with the UI, no idea what you're talking about. Are you sure this is about FairEmail?
- nicolas_t 4y ago
  I like the UI, it works well is easy to configure and gives me everything I need. I tend to dislike new UIs that have hidden defaults, are not configurable enough (because users won't understand) and focus on form over function. FairEmail is great because it's super useable and gets out of my way when I want to do anything.
- Aeolun 4y ago
  I have that when I look ar anything Material Design. It just looks really bad to me.
Diris 4y ago
I love that app, I'm so disappointed
klabb3 4y ago
Can anyone summarize the events and the (non?)explanation from Google? That thread was quite long.
- Crono 4y ago
  You don't have to read the whole thread, the message where the mentioned events start is this one: https://forum.xda-developers.com/t/app-5-0-fairemail-fully-featured-open-source-privacy-oriented-email-app.3824168/post-86908335 https://forum.xda-developers.com/t/app-5-0-fairemail-fully-f...
alaricus 4y ago
Google has an anti-privacy agenda. We need to force Google to give up it's monopoly on Android.
kyrra 4y ago
- draw_down 4y ago
- icc97 4y ago
  Yes he does sound stressed out, I have done similarly drastic things when I felt like he does. Going cold turkey is sometimes the only way out. But saying that "annoying" is a very cold understated way of describing Google's actions. I'm in awe of the work this guy has put in. Google I would hope amongst their developers would recognise that this is an important useful project. The developer himself it appears could handle the negative comments but they clearly ground him down [1]: > The few euros I receive in return for what's being offered and the fun of developing things are no compensation for the thousands of questions I answer every month, for unfair Play store reviews and for stress about unclear Google requirements. Note: the stress comes from the unclear Google requirements. If you do have any access to the Play Store (you're one degree of separation closer at least) then please ask them to find out what's going wrong. FairMail is a really good app. [1]: https://forum.xda-developers.com/t/app-5-0-fairemail-fully-featured-open-source-privacy-oriented-email-app.3824168/post-86909365
- manfre 4y ago
  In that thread he commented that this happened before. Having your "landlord" lock you out on multiple occasions with no clear communication about why is a lot more than simply "annoying". He may have other sources of stress in his life, but those don't mitigate Google's ownership of killing the app.
- kolme 4y ago
  Crystal clear, quote: "If the app can't be in the Play store anymore, there is no point in continuing supporting this app because about 99% of the users download the app from the Play store." So your employer is the _main reason_ this guy is giving up. Also you defending your employer in this thread, given the context, is highly insensitive. Makes you look bad, that's why you're getting downvoted. You should have not commented this, or even better, you should switch to a company that doesn't suck!
Kuinox 4y ago
EU is working on new regulation to fight this kind of things: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Digital_Markets_Act https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Digital_Markets_Act
- Nicksil 4y ago
  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Digital_Markets_Act https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Digital_Markets_Act
  - teddyh 4y ago
    https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/skip-mobile-wikipedia/ https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/skip-mobile-w...
- dan-robertson 4y ago
  How would this regulation help in this specific case? I find I sympathise a lot with both narratives about app stores: it does seem that big mistakes are made and sometimes it seems apps are removed anti competitively but it also seems that there are a lot of apps that are basically malware already and forcing app stores to remove fewer apps would lead to more of it.
  - krageon 4y ago
    Google makes boatloads of money, but somehow they cannot seem to implement a good people-focused review system for whether or not apps are malicious. "But that doesn't scale", I hear you say. They could simply hire more people, that scales fine. It's quite simply that Google has never been a people company and the culture has never shifted from engineering first to people first. It is a shame, because this leads to an ever more shitty experience for the humans using their stuff.
    - dragonwriter 4y ago
      > Google makes boatloads of money Because they have businesses that scale: dominated by fixed costs with very small unit costs, where twice as many units have very much less than twice as much total cost to deliver. > "But that doesn't scale", I hear you say. They could simply hire more people, that scales fine. No, it doesn't. Hiring more people with any given skill set has superlinear costs very quickly (because of supervision heirarchies and increased quantity even before that increasing the clearing price). Cost scaling worse than linearly is pretty much what people mean when they say, “Doesn’t scale".
squarefoot 4y ago
This is sad, however the app is 100% FOSS, so in due time someone could continue its development. https://github.com/M66B/FairEmail https://github.com/M66B/FairEmail Open Source: this is the way.
- k0k0r0 4y ago
  Seems like you found yourself a new hobby.
  - squarefoot 4y ago
    Heh, I wish I had the skills.
pimterry 4y ago
Looks like he's also shutdown Netguard, another Android app from the same developer: https://netguard.me/ https://netguard.me/ / https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=eu.faircode.netguard https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=eu.faircode.ne.... I'd never heard of FairEmail, but I've definitely heard of Netguard! It was comfortably the best Android firewall & had 5 million installs or so via Google Play. Ouch.
- Vladimof 4y ago
  Well that stinks, I'm using both.
- propogandist 4y ago
  Netguard is essential software for Android, imo. It is the first app I install on Android devices, as the entire android OS is spyware and all the pre-installed apps try to phone home, constantly. I am very disappointed to hear this news.
- k0k0r0 4y ago
  FairMail is an insanely good Email-App. I have little to compare to, but it's sick how good FairMail is. I'd be surprised if there is something comparably good.
  - jcul 4y ago
    Yes it's such a good piece of software, and you can really tell it's a labour of love. It's sad to see that the Dev is stopping work on it because they seemed quite passionate and responsive. I paid for the pro version to support the app and usually install it from F-Droid but I guess losing the exposure of the play store is a huge blow.
  - Aachen 4y ago
    FairEmail and K9 are the only real options on mobile that I know of if you want open source. Comparing the two, I'm much happier on FairEmail though K9 wasn't bad either. Particularly the link dialog is nice and helps avoid tracking or accidental taps sometimes.
hericium 4y ago
> FairEmail stopping development after Google falsely flags app as spyware Disgraceful. What kind of mentality a person has to have to take money from the biggest spyware vendor and mark others' work as spyware? Or even allow automated systems, built by spyware vendor, to slap a "spyware" label on anything?
- netizen-936824 4y ago
  The biggest spyware vendor? What role is Microsoft playing here?
  - Aeolun 4y ago
    Microsoft is selling to your employer. Google is selling you. I’m kind of inclined to give MS the benefit here.
  - parkingrift 4y ago
    One where they collect and sell an order of magnitude less data. Maybe 2 orders of magnitude.
    - pretext-1 4y ago
      lol have you heard of ... Windows 10? No OS collects more usage data. And no you can't disable it. And if you try, it will re-enable tracking after some updates.
      - parkingrift 4y ago
        Have you heard of… Google? Search, Gmail, Maps, Android, YouTube, Smart Assistants, home security cameras, thermostats, Chrome, and more, and more, and more. I’ll stick with my assertion that Google collects 1-3 orders of magnitude more data than Microsoft.
        pretext-1 4y ago
        Those are services not OS. And Microsoft services are no different. Difference is that Google is more successful (has more users and services and therefore more data).
jimmydeans 4y ago
It's sad, but I paid for this. So hearing that you gave up because it'll be harder to profit sucks. I'm sick of buying especially software and soon as the developers is bored or won't get rich they abandon it ot Jack up the price.
matwood 4y ago
People dislike Apple's App Store, but I have always found Googles to be worse. The problem with Google's App Store is if you get caught up in the algorithmic kafkaesque maze, it's very hard to get to a real person to get it situated. Apple has been so much easier to work with in this regard.
- black_puppydog 4y ago
  "come over here, this side of the pasture is slighly less kafkaesque" I think using Apple as the reference here is the wrong kind of baseline shift.
  - matwood 4y ago
    I may disagree with an Apple App Store policy or decision, but IME I've never found it kafkaesque. Google's really is a maze. I recently had an app pulled from Google about a month after its latest update (the app has been in the store for years) b/c I hadn't checked some new privacy box in the UI. I received no warning prior to the take down or when I last submitted, and the take down message didn't even point me in the UI where I could check this box. After searching SO, I was able to track it down. Then the app was rejected for an unrelated reason that required an appeal. I appealed and they simply stated rejection again. I appealed again asking if they actually read the original appeal and received no response. A week or so later the app was back live - and I only knew because I checked.
    - withinboredom 4y ago
      I had an app taken down 5 years after the last update for a trademark violation in the store listing: a photo of a logo. The app was a logo identification app (basically). So that was utterly hilarious. I never fixed it. I lol’d so hard I didn’t even care.
      - nulld3v 4y ago
        Sound like a reasonable take down. You are using someone else's logo.
oxplot 4y ago
Eons ago, I built an Android app which allowed using high quality photos for contacts. I made the "huge" mistake of using a celebrity photo in one of my screenshots. Lo and behold, few months later, my free with no advertising app got removed from the store and the only way to put it back was to create a new app which would have a new URL and none of the ratings or reviews carried over. The reasonable thing would have been to send a warning asking to change the damn screenshot, which would have taken me literally 10 second to do. No more app development for me, not unless I control the distribution channel.
- indigochill 4y ago
  > No more app development for me, not unless I control the distribution channel. What about something like F-Droid? F-Droid users can even add new repos to source apps from if you don't want to submit it to wherever F-Droid sources from by default. That said, the culture around smartphones unfortunately was poisoned from the beginning so that normal users are suspicious of anything that doesn't come from the "official" corporate app stores, unlike PCs where they'll download just about anything on the internet, so I do sympathize with swearing off app development.
  - account42 4y ago
    > unlike PCs where they'll download just about anything on the internet Google has that covered too with their "Google Safe Browsing" crap.
  - oxplot 4y ago
    F-Droid came to be in late 2010 and I built the app in early 2012. As such, I didn't really hear about F-Droid at the time and I assume the user base would have been very small (but still better than nothing).
- thecleaner 4y ago
  If it was free and not without ads, why not publish the code and have people build the APK ?
Aachen 4y ago
I realized I never donated. Usually I do this after using an app for a bit. For whatever it's worth, I feel bad so I will do this now still. If you are in the same situation as me: https://email.faircode.eu/donate/ https://email.faircode.eu/donate/ IBAN DE31 1001 1001 2620 6925 85 - name Marcel Bokhorst - description FairEmail
nicolas_t 4y ago
I loved netguard, I donated 20 euros a couple of years ago and was thinking of donating again :( Really pissed at Google at the moment. It's frustrating when one of the main reason I'm still on Android stops development because of the short sighted corrupted practices of a behemoth like Google.
Aeolun 4y ago
To be honest, I can see why he would close all threads. All those messages seem exhausting.
tauntz 4y ago
Years ago I built an Android app that started to finally gather enough users for paying some of my bills. And then I made the irredeemable mistake of switching the app name from "$SocialMediaCompany $MyProductName" (think "Hacker News Comments") to "$MyProductName for $SocialMediaCompany" (think "Comments for Hacker News") and then back again to "$SocialMediaCompany $MyProductName" because I noticed that all "competitors" were using the same format as I originally did and wrongly assumed it's not an offense that would instakill my app. I was wrong. Without any prior warning, the app was taken down and I could only submit it as a totally new app with a fixed application name ("X for Y" was considered OK back then). Now I could have done that but a) together with the app takedown, Google ads for this app were disabled as well(!) so all income suddenly vanished and b) It took over a year to get enough users so I could buy a beer or two per month - no way I was going to spend another year starting from scratch again with that app. I tried to submit an appeal and explain that I'm more than happy to change the name back to "$MyProductName for $SocialMediaCompany" - it takes 10 seconds and it's done. All the rest of the metadata (icon, screenshots, description) were good, the app itself was good.. it was just the title, that didn't pass the review. But no.. all gone in an instant. In the iOS ecosystem, this would have played out similar to this: reviewer: Hey, this app name is confusing for the users as it can leave the impression that it's an official app by $SocialMediaCompany (see rule 1.2.3) me: gotcha, I'll change it reviewer: Great, you're good to go! I've been an Android developer from the early beta days and I'm still happily developing apps as my day job but I haven't written any personal Android apps since that time and I don't think I ever will.
- hammyhavoc 4y ago
  Am I right in thinking that this was for a popular platform that focuses heavily on voting up and down?
  - tauntz 4y ago
    You are correct!
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
lesgobrandon 4y ago
memorable 4y ago
I don't use FairEmail much, but pretty sad to see it go.
memorable 4y ago
Formatted and clickable links for convenience: [0] https://github.com/k9mail/k-9/issues/655#issuecomment-1131645640 https://github.com/k9mail/k-9/issues/655#issuecomment-113164... [1] https://email.faircode.eu/ https://email.faircode.eu/ [2] https://github.com/M66B/FairEmail/releases https://github.com/M66B/FairEmail/releases [3] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26386374 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26386374 [4] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31426915 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31426915 [5] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31432334 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31432334
tawhk 4y ago
I have a story with FairEmail. As I'm always looking for 'libre' (or at least open source) alternatives to the apps I use, one day I came across FairEmail. I saw that it had an app in the Playstore and in F-droid... I did a little research in their repository and then I decided to try the F-droid version. I had to enable Google's option for "unsafe" apps to allow me to use my Gmail. About a week later I get the alert of an attempted login with my Google password. I decided, after changing my password, to uninstall Fairmail (it was the only place I put my password so it could have been leaked). But I was always left with the doubt that Google might have possibly spoofed that login attempt so that I would just go back to using the official Gmail app.
- easyKL 4y ago
  That's the way Alphabet has to force you to use the official app. It also happens with Gmail accounts on Thunderbird. They claim is just because the need of OAuth support for third party email apps.
gommm 4y ago
Is there anyone at google who can help with that? It's sad that the only way to contact Google is by making a big enough stink, but I'd hope that Google would at least have some kind of manual processes for well loved app with a huge amount of downloads like fairemail?
- g_p 4y ago
  Ultimately the inability to reach an intelligent human at Google that responds with something other than an automated response seems to be the root issue here. Indeed, Google is actually breaking EU law here (with impunity), due to some 2019 legislation requiring transparent and meaningful communication that is clear, and not automated. Interestingly, that legislation also requires that developers be treated equally, so Google would need to offer that kind of manual process for all developers. Arguably that would be a better outcome for everyone.
neogodless 4y ago
I see #4 is actually a different link than this one: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31432334 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31432334 FairEmail stopping development after Google falsely flags app as spyware (xda-developers.com) 277 points, 113 comments
- richardboegli 4y ago
  Thanks @neogodless, I've updated post to include it too.
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
my69thaccount 4y ago
What the fuck? FairEmail is the best email client on Android. If they don't fix this, I won't switch to K-9, I'll just switch off Android.
- sam_lowry_ 4y ago
  And then what? PinePhone?
  - my69thaccount 4y ago
    Or Librem
    - aerique 4y ago
      SailfishOS
- encryptluks2 4y ago
  If they don't fix this I'll switch to using CTemplar on an Anom phone. That'll teach them.
  - CyMonk 4y ago
    ctemplar is shutting down. https://ctemplar.com/ctemplar-is-shutting-down/ https://ctemplar.com/ctemplar-is-shutting-down/
    - watusername 4y ago
      I just assumed it's sarcastic, pairing a privacy-focused email provider that's shutting down with a "privacy-focused" phone that was actually developed by the FBI as part of a sting operation.
- cowtools 4y ago
  It's still on f-droid
my69thaccount 4y ago
What the fuck? FairEmail is the best email client on Android. If they don't fix this, I won't switch to K-9, I'll just switch off Android.
crowbahr 4y ago
I just commented on the reddit post about this but I'll bring it in here too: The app implementation is out of touch with modern Google Play privacy requirements and APIs. I read through his code, starting with the Main Activity: https://github.com/M66B/FairEmail/blob/master/app/src/main/java/eu/faircode/email/ActivityMain.java https://github.com/M66B/FairEmail/blob/master/app/src/main/j... 1. He's using ancient APIs. All written in Java with Activities instead of Kotlin with a single Activity and many Fragments. There are some fragments but it's definitely an old writing style 2. He's using Tasks for multithreading/event handling 3. Using Handlers & runnables is a terrible idea and intrinsically fragile 4. The way he's handling synchro (persistent foreground service) is _explicitly something Google is targeting for battery issues_ 5. This code is entirely unmaintainable. He's got a 3k line service file here: https://github.com/M66B/FairEmail/blob/maser/app/src/main/java/eu/faircode/email/ServiceSynchronize.java https://github.com/M66B/FairEmail/blob/maser/app/src/main/ja..., nested deeply with multiple different handlers running. I'm not even going to discuss the fact that he has Logging statements peppered throughout the code etc. This app looks like a 5+ year old code base, not something persistently maintained. He also does not appear to use any modern Android APIs that Google requires, despite declaring the following restricted permissions: 1. READ_CONTACTS 2. READ_EXTERNAL_STORAGE In fact I see him explicitly calling deprecated methods that Google has declared off limits: Line 474 of https://github.com/M66B/FairEmail/blob/master/app/src/main/java/eu/faircode/email/FragmentSetup.java https://github.com/M66B/FairEmail/blob/master/app/src/main/j... `requestPermissions` is an illegal call, which he has documented as throwing an exception that he can't figure out. That's absolutely a smoking gun and potentially the reason Google would ban him. ActivityResultLauncher is required for permissions grants. My summary of this is: This is what bitrot looks like and what happens when you don't manage app scope to handle tech debt. It got too big to maintain.
- alaricus 4y ago
  I call bullshit on this. Google should not get to decide this. As I consumer I want this app.
  - crowbahr 4y ago
    Then build & side load it. The issue is that he's not respecting the required APIs. It literally does not function on a modern Android device because of the permissions. Do you want privacy on your phone? Apps are required to implement the new API for better user control of privacy and permissions. The developer was incapable of maintaining their app to modern API changes. That sucks but it's like complaining that you can't run a Windows 95 program on Win 7 without having to do some work on it yourself.
boole1854 4y ago
I guess I'll take the contrarian view here: the developer violated a reasonable Play Store policy, refused to fix the problem, and received an expected outcome. If you read the details of the Play Store complaint, you will see that they say the app was uploading information from the user's contact list without properly disclosing to the user that this was happening [1]. This is a violation of Play Store policy (a disclosure is required). It's not an unreasonable policy. You can see in the app's source code where some of this happens [2]. In short, the contact list is read off the device, email addresses associated with each contact are parsed out, and the app does HTTP requests to remote servers to get the favicon associated with each email contact domain. Note that this is the sending of information off each user's contact list (the email address domains) to those remote servers. As such, it requires a disclosure to the user. The developer's response is that he refuses to add a disclosure to the app because he is not uploading "contact info". [3]. Ok... not a great response. Certainly I would expect apps to disclose whether or not they are using any information on my contact list to reach out to third-party servers, even if only domain names. In any case, it's Play Store policy. In the end, he finally removed the favicon feature. And Play agreed to allow the app back into the store. [4] But he has not yet backed down on shutting down the whole project because he's still upset. Sources [1] https://forum.xda-developers.com/t/app-5-0-fairemail-fully-featured-open-source-privacy-oriented-email-app.3824168/post-86913731 https://forum.xda-developers.com/t/app-5-0-fairemail-fully-f... [2] https://github.com/M66B/FairEmail/blob/master/app/src/main/java/eu/faircode/email/ContactInfo.java https://github.com/M66B/FairEmail/blob/master/app/src/main/j... [3] https://forum.xda-developers.com/t/app-5-0-fairemail-fully-featured-open-source-privacy-oriented-email-app.3824168/post-86913771 https://forum.xda-developers.com/t/app-5-0-fairemail-fully-f... [4] https://forum.xda-developers.com/t/app-5-0-fairemail-fully-featured-open-source-privacy-oriented-email-app.3824168/post-86914375 https://forum.xda-developers.com/t/app-5-0-fairemail-fully-f...
- pan69 4y ago
  > Certainly I would expect apps to disclose whether or not they are using any information on my contact list I would expect the app to ask for permissions when first started and that if access to contacts is one of those permissions that I can disable that. Its for the app to work around not having this permission and if part of the app is not working due to not have the permission, so be it.
darau1 4y ago
Seriously? I configured all five of my email accounts on FairEmail literally a week ago, because K9 doesn't have a unified inbox. I was even going to pay for it, just so I could snooze mails without having to use the Gmail client. I hope to see updates to the app somewhere else.
- lerela 4y ago
  I am surprised you are saying K9 does not have a unified inbox, because I use it daily (Settings/General Settings/Display/Show Unified Inbox). Do you mean that the way it works does not meet your needs?
  - darau1 4y ago
    > Do you mean that the way it works does not meet your needs? Yes. I can't give you specifics, because even they are not clear in my head; I just know what FairEmail does out of the box works perfectly for me. Also, filters. I don't move things out of my Inbox after having read them, so I rely heavily on FairEmail's powerful filtering mechanism. I can tell K9 to sort by unread first, but that isn't the same thing. edit: Since we're on the topic, what alternatives are there? I know of none off the top of my head.
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
- kingofpandora 4y ago
  I just did pay for it.
na85 4y ago
God fucking damn it. This one is particularly galling because fair email is actually far superior to k9. I'm so sick of these giant faceless corporations.
hedora 4y ago
I noticed a lot of threads about how it's good that this (apparently more reliable than K-9 or gmail) app needs to be thrown out and rewritten because of android-side API drift. There's an effect called "survivor bias", which for software, usually means that the older a popular application, the better it is. For instance, Unix shell has survived more or less intact for 50 years. That implies no significantly better CLI language has been invented by the last two generations of programmers. This idea of just deleting quality software every five years for no reason is setting the field back. Imagine what things would look like today if Microsoft had managed to replace 100% of unix shell implementations with the DOS command prompt!
- psd1 4y ago
  > Unix shell has survived more or less intact for 50 years. That implies no significantly better CLI language has been invented False. Network effect is an equally good explanation. In fact, one of the arguments that repeatedly crops up on HN in favour of bash is "it's installed already". The first thing I install on a Linux box is powershell. Your mention of the DOS shell is a straw man - it hasn't been state of the art on Windows for nearly twenty years. So you picked a bad example but your point has merit? No. I don't think it does. Kernel devs see problems with fork. Fork is thirty years old, maybe forty? Sometimes things need to change.
- 0xbadcafebee 4y ago
  "The new shell is more advanced, so it's better!" is false equivalence bias. It's more complex, which isn't the same thing as better. Shells are user interfaces, not programming languages. This user interface has been good enough that we have not yet needed to invent a small, portable, ubiquitous, systems programming language [sans user interface]. The interest in making a new more complex shell, rather than a programming language, is the survivor bias. Because we've used user interfaces for systems programming for eons, and that use case hasn't died yet, we must just need a more advanced shell, rather than a different solution.
- g_p 4y ago
  Indeed - what a lot of comments on this topic seem to overlook is that a lot of device specific bug fixes have been put into effect for push sync in FairEmail, without battery drain, and while only using IMAP IDLE (therefore avoiding cloud sync or sending email passwords to third party services for push messages). The idea of rewriting that every few years in a new language, or using new APIs, is counter to the principle of writing robust, reliable software without regressions. In my experience, those writing software that reinvents the wheel every 5 years end up ignoring and externalising the impact of regressions on their users, for the sake of using a new language or framework every few weeks...
2-718-281-828 4y ago
Maybe he should just offer sexual services to the key employees at Google to have the app unterminated.
- dang 4y ago
  Please don't do this here.
  - 2-718-281-828 4y ago
    It's a reference to the Kitty Lixo story (https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31436182 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31436182)
ospzfmbbzr 4y ago
Oh the irony of Google flagging ANYTHING as spyware. Google is blocked to the maximum degree possible on every device and network under my control, along with anything to do with microsoft. Funny how they are indistiguishable now. No talent and middle management heavy. Amazing how fast sites are when they aren't spying on you with google fonts being remotely loaded every time for no reason except to violate your privacy. 'Don't (just) be evil... be the prince of darkness!'
dbg31415 4y ago
Hey, I don't like the title of this post. I'm not entirely sure "falsely" is correct. After reading what I could read, seems like there was a legitimate security concern, and rather than work on it the dev just sort of said, "Meh, I don't want to do non-dev things, let's just cancel this project. It's not fun anymore." Paraphrased. He also wrote: > Core problem > Google. There is no sensible way to appeal in case of bad reviews or alleged violations of Play store policies. > People. They are generally pretty demanding and on the other hand everything should be free. > Myself. An old and grumpy developer, who maybe should retired. I 100% believe all of those points, but especially with open-source devs... most people who do those projects do them to avoid "real software" -- what I mean by that is the process that it takes to make enterprise software or software at scale. Project Managers, Product Owners, UX Designers, QA Testers, Security Consultants, etc. Most open-source projects tend to be the software equivalent of some guy in his garage building a model train set... just something you can do for fun to flex your skills. Focus on building, but not having to deal with the overhead of communicating, taking input, and compromising with others. Anyway, building a side project is fine. But... like in another post someone was complaining about the certification cost of dealing with Google Data as a 3rd Party Developer... and like... I can't get on board with the sympathy bandwagon there. I want there to be a stringent process before Google even gives app developers the ability to request access to my data -- even if it's on my behalf. And so... back to the analogy, building a model train is fine, but like... wanting to build a fully operational train all by yourself, and have others use it, ride on it, rely on it... at some point, it needs to turn into a "real" project. One of the hardest things about dealing with open-source projects is all the original creators of those projects who just don't want to play nice, and don't want to grow a team to grow and support their code. One thing I've done when an agency or company I work for has used open-source code, we try and at least set up a lunch and learn with the creator. Good to get their vision of where the code is going, good to have that line if we need them to fix bugs. But like... 99% of the time, I know that any input we give... there's just no point. The creator doesn't want input, he only really wants to play in his basement with his model train. Buy him lunch, give him as big of a guest lecture stipend as I can, and move on.
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
dang 4y ago
Related ongoing thread: EFF and EU should respond to Google taking FairEmail off the Play store - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31433051 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31433051 - May 2022 (42 comments)
vfclists 4y ago
With over 5 million downloads ommon sense says the developer is giving up because it is not worth it, ie not enough people buy the software or donate to support its development. This is really not due to Google. Google does this a lot and not all developers rage quit on account of that. Android users it is time you forked out more to support free software developers.

436 points by worble 4y ago

So, google is flagging an app which competes with an app they make (gmail) as spyware without any real path of recourse, and effectively blocking it from a platform they control? Could this be grounds for an anti-trust suit?

Nasreddin_Hodja 4y ago

But why are they stopping development? Google is not the only place. I prefer f-droid if an app is available there.

nelblu 4y ago

This sucks, Marcel is a great developer. I have donated to this project a few times and I have been using this app for quite some time now. He is very responsive to your emails and questions. I hope he continues to develop.

worble 4y ago

Link to the main website: https://email.faircode.eu/ https://email.faircode.eu/ (HN wouldn't let me post it)

bronikowski 4y ago

That's not great. I just recommended a paid version to a friend.

icc97 4y ago
You can still get it from f-droid (https://f-droid.org/en/packages/eu.faircode.email/ https://f-droid.org/en/packages/eu.faircode.email/). It still works great even if there is no further development. I much prefer it to the K-9 email client. The main thing I love is that it blocks all images by default whilst still keeping the email readable.

tut-urut-utut 4y ago

Google should be ashamed. Just cancel an app without a possibility to actually appeal to the person. Maybe in this case, Google didn't act in bad faith, but having such a system in place has a method. It's something every developer should have in mind before deciding to develop anything on Google platform.

prox 4y ago
Yup, another case of the Monopoly of Google.
- charcircuit 4y ago
  It's not like you can't get the app on android anymore. You can download it right now from fdroid.
  - mdrzn 4y ago
    He won't be maintaining or supporting it anymore.
  - Barrin92 4y ago
    I would wager the amount of android users who even know what fdroid is, is < 5%, if not much lower. Getting flagged as spyware or booted from the Play Store effectively destroys any project that relies on funding.
  - prox 4y ago
    It’s kind of missing the point of having a company shutting down your business without much recourse for objection. I currently have to deal with Google on a matter, and the lengths I have to go through to even get a response is ridiculous. And this is on their ads platform, so technically I am their best kind of client who brings in money. And there is no alternative, that is the monopoly.
  - FabHK 4y ago
    From the author (in the linked thread): > If the app can't be in the Play store anymore, there is no point in continuing supporting this app because about 99% of the users download the app from the Play store. And some more context: --- Begin quote --- The balance The few euros I receive in return for what's being offered and the fun of developing things are no compensation for the thousands of questions I answer every month, for unfair Play store reviews and for stress about unclear Google requirements. The verdict I have not reached a conclusion yet, but the question I am asking myself is why I would continue with the project. Maybe it is the moment, with a sick girlfriend, but I currently don't see it. Alternatives GitHub only version: 98% of the audience will be lost. Strip down the app: more bad reviews Paid support: more bad reviews Stop answering questions: more bad reviews Bad reviews will shift the balance only in the wrong direction. Core problem Google. There is no sensible way to appeal in case of bad reviews or alleged violations of Play store policies. People. They are generally pretty demanding and on the other hand everything should be free. Myself. An old and grumpy developer, who maybe should retired. Input is welcome. --- End quote ---

deleted 4y ago

[deleted]

Jenk 4y ago

It's difficult not to assume some kind of hidden "anti-privacy apps" agenda when seeing things like this. Even more difficult to test this given Google continues to violate their obligation for transparency.

alaricus 4y ago
This is textbook anti-competitive behaviour.

dt3ft 4y ago

The author has every right to stop accepting the uncalled for abuse from users and drop development and support. I hope he can direct his attention to things that give him joy instead.

pietro72ohboy 4y ago
What abuse are you talking about? Google banned the app. That's it. I have donated to this app and I am genuinely happy with Marcel's efforts to add features. Users aren't always the problem.
- k0k0r0 4y ago
  I'd argue choosing to use PlayStore for downloading Apps is already abuse. It's negligience towards the creators. On the other hand you don't need to put your app there, except for maybe if you want to attract some users./s
- sodality2 4y ago
  Marcel made several references to the very high volume of support requests and how it contributed to the problem.
- BeefWellington 4y ago
  Indeed, I would donate again were Marcel to continue development via pure sideloading. FairEmail is REALLY REALLY good.
- barterr 4y ago
  He talks about users expectations and unfair reviews a bit in a few comments on that page, I imagine there's more I didn't read
  - deleted 4y ago
    [deleted]
  - dt3ft 4y ago
    This is what I was referring to. Thank you for clarifying.

hkt 4y ago

Google are vile. Decisions like this should always be appealable to an independent tribunal, the way that employment disputes are. I'd go so far as to suggest that app developers are de facto employees, on that note: a recent ruling in the UK against Uber suggests that those who rely on such platforms are entitled to protections. I'd suggest that could apply here, too.

jaywalk 4y ago
> I'd go so far as to suggest that app developers are de facto employees Google is wrong here, but so is this suggestion. Nothing about publishing on an app store fits the definition of an employee.
- hkt 4y ago
  In the UK we have a category of "worker" which is between self employed and employed. I strongly suspect the fact that google play is the sole marketplace for most apps has an effect that brings people into that definition. It is about whether or not a business is captive, and whether it relies entirely on one platform for its customers. These things are what got GMB their victory over Uber in the employment tribunal.

privacyking 4y ago

Shame. This is the only decent android email app. Another one killed by Google.

lizardactivist 4y ago

Google and the U.S. monopoly on e-mail and communication must burn.

nonrandomstring 4y ago

What is happening with Google? Seems there have been quite a number of "Google broke it" stories flying around - or am I just seeing confirmation bias as my negative experiences of Google increase daily. Search is awful. It can't deliver mail reliably. Is Google broken inside and turning into a hostile entity?

e3bc54b2 4y ago
> What is happening with Google? They lived long enough to see themselves become a villain.
- aidenn0 4y ago
  It's not the app store we need, but it's the one we deserve.
Sebb767 4y ago
In my anecdotal experience, there have been a few outrages a month over something Google has f-ed up on HN for years now. I'm not too happy with them, either, but you also have to factor in Google's size - at a billion users, they're bound to have a lot of unhappy ones, even if they would be perfect. Lastly, HN has been successfully used for contacting Google support in the past, so this also increases the number of posts.
- thfuran 4y ago
  >also have to factor in Google's size - at a billion users, they're bound to have a lot of unhappy ones, even if they would be perfect Sure, but the things that Google does to make some of their users unhappy and the total lack of recourse Google makes available to them are decidedly far from perfect. That some people are going to be unhappy no matter what is beside the point.
Ekaros 4y ago
They are the other big player. So of course things happen there as lot of entities or nearly all of them actually deal with them. Doesn't mean their decisions or products aren't getting worse for users.

jasonvorhe 4y ago

Not to diss the developer, but am I really the only one who can't stand the arcane UI? Props for keeping up the apk though. For everyone using the app I hope it'll live on as fork.

deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
k0k0r0 4y ago
Did you actally read the thread? His rage-quit feels actually quite tragic right now. Additionally to the insane problems with Google and the PlayStore-enviroment/ecosystem, his girlfriend is currently sick, and taking care of her is his priority. I'd find it more appropriate if the (current)top-comment doesn't casually criticize some simple looks of the app as if nothing. I mean if somebody's drowning right now next to me, I don't want to hear commentary about how shitty her/his shoes look like. Well, you didn't choose to be top-comment right now for everybody to see this like on a silver plate, but to everybody else... In real life I'd suggest: maybe discuss this on some other day. Edit: Not top-comment anymore.
Aachen 4y ago
Yes. I have absolutely no problems with the UI, no idea what you're talking about. Are you sure this is about FairEmail?
nicolas_t 4y ago
I like the UI, it works well is easy to configure and gives me everything I need. I tend to dislike new UIs that have hidden defaults, are not configurable enough (because users won't understand) and focus on form over function. FairEmail is great because it's super useable and gets out of my way when I want to do anything.
Aeolun 4y ago
I have that when I look ar anything Material Design. It just looks really bad to me.

Diris 4y ago

I love that app, I'm so disappointed

klabb3 4y ago

Can anyone summarize the events and the (non?)explanation from Google? That thread was quite long.

Crono 4y ago
You don't have to read the whole thread, the message where the mentioned events start is this one: https://forum.xda-developers.com/t/app-5-0-fairemail-fully-featured-open-source-privacy-oriented-email-app.3824168/post-86908335 https://forum.xda-developers.com/t/app-5-0-fairemail-fully-f...

alaricus 4y ago

Google has an anti-privacy agenda. We need to force Google to give up it's monopoly on Android.

kyrra 4y ago

draw_down 4y ago
icc97 4y ago
Yes he does sound stressed out, I have done similarly drastic things when I felt like he does. Going cold turkey is sometimes the only way out. But saying that "annoying" is a very cold understated way of describing Google's actions. I'm in awe of the work this guy has put in. Google I would hope amongst their developers would recognise that this is an important useful project. The developer himself it appears could handle the negative comments but they clearly ground him down [1]: > The few euros I receive in return for what's being offered and the fun of developing things are no compensation for the thousands of questions I answer every month, for unfair Play store reviews and for stress about unclear Google requirements. Note: the stress comes from the unclear Google requirements. If you do have any access to the Play Store (you're one degree of separation closer at least) then please ask them to find out what's going wrong. FairMail is a really good app. [1]: https://forum.xda-developers.com/t/app-5-0-fairemail-fully-featured-open-source-privacy-oriented-email-app.3824168/post-86909365
manfre 4y ago
In that thread he commented that this happened before. Having your "landlord" lock you out on multiple occasions with no clear communication about why is a lot more than simply "annoying". He may have other sources of stress in his life, but those don't mitigate Google's ownership of killing the app.
kolme 4y ago
Crystal clear, quote: "If the app can't be in the Play store anymore, there is no point in continuing supporting this app because about 99% of the users download the app from the Play store." So your employer is the _main reason_ this guy is giving up. Also you defending your employer in this thread, given the context, is highly insensitive. Makes you look bad, that's why you're getting downvoted. You should have not commented this, or even better, you should switch to a company that doesn't suck!

Kuinox 4y ago

EU is working on new regulation to fight this kind of things: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Digital_Markets_Act https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Digital_Markets_Act

Nicksil 4y ago
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Digital_Markets_Act https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Digital_Markets_Act
- teddyh 4y ago
  https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/skip-mobile-wikipedia/ https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/skip-mobile-w...
dan-robertson 4y ago
How would this regulation help in this specific case? I find I sympathise a lot with both narratives about app stores: it does seem that big mistakes are made and sometimes it seems apps are removed anti competitively but it also seems that there are a lot of apps that are basically malware already and forcing app stores to remove fewer apps would lead to more of it.
- krageon 4y ago
  Google makes boatloads of money, but somehow they cannot seem to implement a good people-focused review system for whether or not apps are malicious. "But that doesn't scale", I hear you say. They could simply hire more people, that scales fine. It's quite simply that Google has never been a people company and the culture has never shifted from engineering first to people first. It is a shame, because this leads to an ever more shitty experience for the humans using their stuff.
  - dragonwriter 4y ago
    > Google makes boatloads of money Because they have businesses that scale: dominated by fixed costs with very small unit costs, where twice as many units have very much less than twice as much total cost to deliver. > "But that doesn't scale", I hear you say. They could simply hire more people, that scales fine. No, it doesn't. Hiring more people with any given skill set has superlinear costs very quickly (because of supervision heirarchies and increased quantity even before that increasing the clearing price). Cost scaling worse than linearly is pretty much what people mean when they say, “Doesn’t scale".

squarefoot 4y ago

This is sad, however the app is 100% FOSS, so in due time someone could continue its development. https://github.com/M66B/FairEmail https://github.com/M66B/FairEmail Open Source: this is the way.

k0k0r0 4y ago
Seems like you found yourself a new hobby.
- squarefoot 4y ago
  Heh, I wish I had the skills.

pimterry 4y ago

Looks like he's also shutdown Netguard, another Android app from the same developer: https://netguard.me/ https://netguard.me/ / https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=eu.faircode.netguard https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=eu.faircode.ne.... I'd never heard of FairEmail, but I've definitely heard of Netguard! It was comfortably the best Android firewall & had 5 million installs or so via Google Play. Ouch.

Vladimof 4y ago
Well that stinks, I'm using both.
propogandist 4y ago
Netguard is essential software for Android, imo. It is the first app I install on Android devices, as the entire android OS is spyware and all the pre-installed apps try to phone home, constantly. I am very disappointed to hear this news.
k0k0r0 4y ago
FairMail is an insanely good Email-App. I have little to compare to, but it's sick how good FairMail is. I'd be surprised if there is something comparably good.
- jcul 4y ago
  Yes it's such a good piece of software, and you can really tell it's a labour of love. It's sad to see that the Dev is stopping work on it because they seemed quite passionate and responsive. I paid for the pro version to support the app and usually install it from F-Droid but I guess losing the exposure of the play store is a huge blow.
- Aachen 4y ago
  FairEmail and K9 are the only real options on mobile that I know of if you want open source. Comparing the two, I'm much happier on FairEmail though K9 wasn't bad either. Particularly the link dialog is nice and helps avoid tracking or accidental taps sometimes.

hericium 4y ago

> FairEmail stopping development after Google falsely flags app as spyware Disgraceful. What kind of mentality a person has to have to take money from the biggest spyware vendor and mark others' work as spyware? Or even allow automated systems, built by spyware vendor, to slap a "spyware" label on anything?

netizen-936824 4y ago
The biggest spyware vendor? What role is Microsoft playing here?
- Aeolun 4y ago
  Microsoft is selling to your employer. Google is selling you. I’m kind of inclined to give MS the benefit here.
- parkingrift 4y ago
  One where they collect and sell an order of magnitude less data. Maybe 2 orders of magnitude.
  - pretext-1 4y ago
    lol have you heard of ... Windows 10? No OS collects more usage data. And no you can't disable it. And if you try, it will re-enable tracking after some updates.
    - parkingrift 4y ago
      Have you heard of… Google? Search, Gmail, Maps, Android, YouTube, Smart Assistants, home security cameras, thermostats, Chrome, and more, and more, and more. I’ll stick with my assertion that Google collects 1-3 orders of magnitude more data than Microsoft.
      - pretext-1 4y ago
        Those are services not OS. And Microsoft services are no different. Difference is that Google is more successful (has more users and services and therefore more data).

jimmydeans 4y ago

It's sad, but I paid for this. So hearing that you gave up because it'll be harder to profit sucks. I'm sick of buying especially software and soon as the developers is bored or won't get rich they abandon it ot Jack up the price.

matwood 4y ago

People dislike Apple's App Store, but I have always found Googles to be worse. The problem with Google's App Store is if you get caught up in the algorithmic kafkaesque maze, it's very hard to get to a real person to get it situated. Apple has been so much easier to work with in this regard.

black_puppydog 4y ago
"come over here, this side of the pasture is slighly less kafkaesque" I think using Apple as the reference here is the wrong kind of baseline shift.
- matwood 4y ago
  I may disagree with an Apple App Store policy or decision, but IME I've never found it kafkaesque. Google's really is a maze. I recently had an app pulled from Google about a month after its latest update (the app has been in the store for years) b/c I hadn't checked some new privacy box in the UI. I received no warning prior to the take down or when I last submitted, and the take down message didn't even point me in the UI where I could check this box. After searching SO, I was able to track it down. Then the app was rejected for an unrelated reason that required an appeal. I appealed and they simply stated rejection again. I appealed again asking if they actually read the original appeal and received no response. A week or so later the app was back live - and I only knew because I checked.
  - withinboredom 4y ago
    I had an app taken down 5 years after the last update for a trademark violation in the store listing: a photo of a logo. The app was a logo identification app (basically). So that was utterly hilarious. I never fixed it. I lol’d so hard I didn’t even care.
    - nulld3v 4y ago
      Sound like a reasonable take down. You are using someone else's logo.

oxplot 4y ago

Eons ago, I built an Android app which allowed using high quality photos for contacts. I made the "huge" mistake of using a celebrity photo in one of my screenshots. Lo and behold, few months later, my free with no advertising app got removed from the store and the only way to put it back was to create a new app which would have a new URL and none of the ratings or reviews carried over. The reasonable thing would have been to send a warning asking to change the damn screenshot, which would have taken me literally 10 second to do. No more app development for me, not unless I control the distribution channel.

indigochill 4y ago
> No more app development for me, not unless I control the distribution channel. What about something like F-Droid? F-Droid users can even add new repos to source apps from if you don't want to submit it to wherever F-Droid sources from by default. That said, the culture around smartphones unfortunately was poisoned from the beginning so that normal users are suspicious of anything that doesn't come from the "official" corporate app stores, unlike PCs where they'll download just about anything on the internet, so I do sympathize with swearing off app development.
- account42 4y ago
  > unlike PCs where they'll download just about anything on the internet Google has that covered too with their "Google Safe Browsing" crap.
- oxplot 4y ago
  F-Droid came to be in late 2010 and I built the app in early 2012. As such, I didn't really hear about F-Droid at the time and I assume the user base would have been very small (but still better than nothing).
thecleaner 4y ago
If it was free and not without ads, why not publish the code and have people build the APK ?

Aachen 4y ago

I realized I never donated. Usually I do this after using an app for a bit. For whatever it's worth, I feel bad so I will do this now still. If you are in the same situation as me: https://email.faircode.eu/donate/ https://email.faircode.eu/donate/ IBAN DE31 1001 1001 2620 6925 85 - name Marcel Bokhorst - description FairEmail

nicolas_t 4y ago

I loved netguard, I donated 20 euros a couple of years ago and was thinking of donating again :( Really pissed at Google at the moment. It's frustrating when one of the main reason I'm still on Android stops development because of the short sighted corrupted practices of a behemoth like Google.

Aeolun 4y ago

To be honest, I can see why he would close all threads. All those messages seem exhausting.

tauntz 4y ago

Years ago I built an Android app that started to finally gather enough users for paying some of my bills. And then I made the irredeemable mistake of switching the app name from "$SocialMediaCompany $MyProductName" (think "Hacker News Comments") to "$MyProductName for $SocialMediaCompany" (think "Comments for Hacker News") and then back again to "$SocialMediaCompany $MyProductName" because I noticed that all "competitors" were using the same format as I originally did and wrongly assumed it's not an offense that would instakill my app. I was wrong. Without any prior warning, the app was taken down and I could only submit it as a totally new app with a fixed application name ("X for Y" was considered OK back then). Now I could have done that but a) together with the app takedown, Google ads for this app were disabled as well(!) so all income suddenly vanished and b) It took over a year to get enough users so I could buy a beer or two per month - no way I was going to spend another year starting from scratch again with that app. I tried to submit an appeal and explain that I'm more than happy to change the name back to "$MyProductName for $SocialMediaCompany" - it takes 10 seconds and it's done. All the rest of the metadata (icon, screenshots, description) were good, the app itself was good.. it was just the title, that didn't pass the review. But no.. all gone in an instant. In the iOS ecosystem, this would have played out similar to this: reviewer: Hey, this app name is confusing for the users as it can leave the impression that it's an official app by $SocialMediaCompany (see rule 1.2.3) me: gotcha, I'll change it reviewer: Great, you're good to go! I've been an Android developer from the early beta days and I'm still happily developing apps as my day job but I haven't written any personal Android apps since that time and I don't think I ever will.

hammyhavoc 4y ago
Am I right in thinking that this was for a popular platform that focuses heavily on voting up and down?
- tauntz 4y ago
  You are correct!
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]

lesgobrandon 4y ago

memorable 4y ago

I don't use FairEmail much, but pretty sad to see it go.

memorable 4y ago

Formatted and clickable links for convenience: [0] https://github.com/k9mail/k-9/issues/655#issuecomment-1131645640 https://github.com/k9mail/k-9/issues/655#issuecomment-113164... [1] https://email.faircode.eu/ https://email.faircode.eu/ [2] https://github.com/M66B/FairEmail/releases https://github.com/M66B/FairEmail/releases [3] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26386374 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26386374 [4] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31426915 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31426915 [5] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31432334 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31432334

tawhk 4y ago

I have a story with FairEmail. As I'm always looking for 'libre' (or at least open source) alternatives to the apps I use, one day I came across FairEmail. I saw that it had an app in the Playstore and in F-droid... I did a little research in their repository and then I decided to try the F-droid version. I had to enable Google's option for "unsafe" apps to allow me to use my Gmail. About a week later I get the alert of an attempted login with my Google password. I decided, after changing my password, to uninstall Fairmail (it was the only place I put my password so it could have been leaked). But I was always left with the doubt that Google might have possibly spoofed that login attempt so that I would just go back to using the official Gmail app.

easyKL 4y ago
That's the way Alphabet has to force you to use the official app. It also happens with Gmail accounts on Thunderbird. They claim is just because the need of OAuth support for third party email apps.

gommm 4y ago

Is there anyone at google who can help with that? It's sad that the only way to contact Google is by making a big enough stink, but I'd hope that Google would at least have some kind of manual processes for well loved app with a huge amount of downloads like fairemail?

g_p 4y ago
Ultimately the inability to reach an intelligent human at Google that responds with something other than an automated response seems to be the root issue here. Indeed, Google is actually breaking EU law here (with impunity), due to some 2019 legislation requiring transparent and meaningful communication that is clear, and not automated. Interestingly, that legislation also requires that developers be treated equally, so Google would need to offer that kind of manual process for all developers. Arguably that would be a better outcome for everyone.

neogodless 4y ago

I see #4 is actually a different link than this one: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31432334 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31432334 FairEmail stopping development after Google falsely flags app as spyware (xda-developers.com) 277 points, 113 comments

richardboegli 4y ago
Thanks @neogodless, I've updated post to include it too.
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]

my69thaccount 4y ago

What the fuck? FairEmail is the best email client on Android. If they don't fix this, I won't switch to K-9, I'll just switch off Android.

sam_lowry_ 4y ago
And then what? PinePhone?
- my69thaccount 4y ago
  Or Librem
  - aerique 4y ago
    SailfishOS
encryptluks2 4y ago
If they don't fix this I'll switch to using CTemplar on an Anom phone. That'll teach them.
- CyMonk 4y ago
  ctemplar is shutting down. https://ctemplar.com/ctemplar-is-shutting-down/ https://ctemplar.com/ctemplar-is-shutting-down/
  - watusername 4y ago
    I just assumed it's sarcastic, pairing a privacy-focused email provider that's shutting down with a "privacy-focused" phone that was actually developed by the FBI as part of a sting operation.
cowtools 4y ago
It's still on f-droid

my69thaccount 4y ago

What the fuck? FairEmail is the best email client on Android. If they don't fix this, I won't switch to K-9, I'll just switch off Android.

crowbahr 4y ago

I just commented on the reddit post about this but I'll bring it in here too: The app implementation is out of touch with modern Google Play privacy requirements and APIs. I read through his code, starting with the Main Activity: https://github.com/M66B/FairEmail/blob/master/app/src/main/java/eu/faircode/email/ActivityMain.java https://github.com/M66B/FairEmail/blob/master/app/src/main/j... 1. He's using ancient APIs. All written in Java with Activities instead of Kotlin with a single Activity and many Fragments. There are some fragments but it's definitely an old writing style 2. He's using Tasks for multithreading/event handling 3. Using Handlers & runnables is a terrible idea and intrinsically fragile 4. The way he's handling synchro (persistent foreground service) is _explicitly something Google is targeting for battery issues_ 5. This code is entirely unmaintainable. He's got a 3k line service file here: https://github.com/M66B/FairEmail/blob/maser/app/src/main/java/eu/faircode/email/ServiceSynchronize.java https://github.com/M66B/FairEmail/blob/maser/app/src/main/ja..., nested deeply with multiple different handlers running. I'm not even going to discuss the fact that he has Logging statements peppered throughout the code etc. This app looks like a 5+ year old code base, not something persistently maintained. He also does not appear to use any modern Android APIs that Google requires, despite declaring the following restricted permissions: 1. READ_CONTACTS 2. READ_EXTERNAL_STORAGE In fact I see him explicitly calling deprecated methods that Google has declared off limits: Line 474 of https://github.com/M66B/FairEmail/blob/master/app/src/main/java/eu/faircode/email/FragmentSetup.java https://github.com/M66B/FairEmail/blob/master/app/src/main/j... `requestPermissions` is an illegal call, which he has documented as throwing an exception that he can't figure out. That's absolutely a smoking gun and potentially the reason Google would ban him. ActivityResultLauncher is required for permissions grants. My summary of this is: This is what bitrot looks like and what happens when you don't manage app scope to handle tech debt. It got too big to maintain.

alaricus 4y ago
I call bullshit on this. Google should not get to decide this. As I consumer I want this app.
- crowbahr 4y ago
  Then build & side load it. The issue is that he's not respecting the required APIs. It literally does not function on a modern Android device because of the permissions. Do you want privacy on your phone? Apps are required to implement the new API for better user control of privacy and permissions. The developer was incapable of maintaining their app to modern API changes. That sucks but it's like complaining that you can't run a Windows 95 program on Win 7 without having to do some work on it yourself.

boole1854 4y ago

I guess I'll take the contrarian view here: the developer violated a reasonable Play Store policy, refused to fix the problem, and received an expected outcome. If you read the details of the Play Store complaint, you will see that they say the app was uploading information from the user's contact list without properly disclosing to the user that this was happening [1]. This is a violation of Play Store policy (a disclosure is required). It's not an unreasonable policy. You can see in the app's source code where some of this happens [2]. In short, the contact list is read off the device, email addresses associated with each contact are parsed out, and the app does HTTP requests to remote servers to get the favicon associated with each email contact domain. Note that this is the sending of information off each user's contact list (the email address domains) to those remote servers. As such, it requires a disclosure to the user. The developer's response is that he refuses to add a disclosure to the app because he is not uploading "contact info". [3]. Ok... not a great response. Certainly I would expect apps to disclose whether or not they are using any information on my contact list to reach out to third-party servers, even if only domain names. In any case, it's Play Store policy. In the end, he finally removed the favicon feature. And Play agreed to allow the app back into the store. [4] But he has not yet backed down on shutting down the whole project because he's still upset. Sources [1] https://forum.xda-developers.com/t/app-5-0-fairemail-fully-featured-open-source-privacy-oriented-email-app.3824168/post-86913731 https://forum.xda-developers.com/t/app-5-0-fairemail-fully-f... [2] https://github.com/M66B/FairEmail/blob/master/app/src/main/java/eu/faircode/email/ContactInfo.java https://github.com/M66B/FairEmail/blob/master/app/src/main/j... [3] https://forum.xda-developers.com/t/app-5-0-fairemail-fully-featured-open-source-privacy-oriented-email-app.3824168/post-86913771 https://forum.xda-developers.com/t/app-5-0-fairemail-fully-f... [4] https://forum.xda-developers.com/t/app-5-0-fairemail-fully-featured-open-source-privacy-oriented-email-app.3824168/post-86914375 https://forum.xda-developers.com/t/app-5-0-fairemail-fully-f...

pan69 4y ago
> Certainly I would expect apps to disclose whether or not they are using any information on my contact list I would expect the app to ask for permissions when first started and that if access to contacts is one of those permissions that I can disable that. Its for the app to work around not having this permission and if part of the app is not working due to not have the permission, so be it.

darau1 4y ago

Seriously? I configured all five of my email accounts on FairEmail literally a week ago, because K9 doesn't have a unified inbox. I was even going to pay for it, just so I could snooze mails without having to use the Gmail client. I hope to see updates to the app somewhere else.

lerela 4y ago
I am surprised you are saying K9 does not have a unified inbox, because I use it daily (Settings/General Settings/Display/Show Unified Inbox). Do you mean that the way it works does not meet your needs?
- darau1 4y ago
  > Do you mean that the way it works does not meet your needs? Yes. I can't give you specifics, because even they are not clear in my head; I just know what FairEmail does out of the box works perfectly for me. Also, filters. I don't move things out of my Inbox after having read them, so I rely heavily on FairEmail's powerful filtering mechanism. I can tell K9 to sort by unread first, but that isn't the same thing. edit: Since we're on the topic, what alternatives are there? I know of none off the top of my head.
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
kingofpandora 4y ago
I just did pay for it.

na85 4y ago

God fucking damn it. This one is particularly galling because fair email is actually far superior to k9. I'm so sick of these giant faceless corporations.

hedora 4y ago

I noticed a lot of threads about how it's good that this (apparently more reliable than K-9 or gmail) app needs to be thrown out and rewritten because of android-side API drift. There's an effect called "survivor bias", which for software, usually means that the older a popular application, the better it is. For instance, Unix shell has survived more or less intact for 50 years. That implies no significantly better CLI language has been invented by the last two generations of programmers. This idea of just deleting quality software every five years for no reason is setting the field back. Imagine what things would look like today if Microsoft had managed to replace 100% of unix shell implementations with the DOS command prompt!

psd1 4y ago
> Unix shell has survived more or less intact for 50 years. That implies no significantly better CLI language has been invented False. Network effect is an equally good explanation. In fact, one of the arguments that repeatedly crops up on HN in favour of bash is "it's installed already". The first thing I install on a Linux box is powershell. Your mention of the DOS shell is a straw man - it hasn't been state of the art on Windows for nearly twenty years. So you picked a bad example but your point has merit? No. I don't think it does. Kernel devs see problems with fork. Fork is thirty years old, maybe forty? Sometimes things need to change.
0xbadcafebee 4y ago
"The new shell is more advanced, so it's better!" is false equivalence bias. It's more complex, which isn't the same thing as better. Shells are user interfaces, not programming languages. This user interface has been good enough that we have not yet needed to invent a small, portable, ubiquitous, systems programming language [sans user interface]. The interest in making a new more complex shell, rather than a programming language, is the survivor bias. Because we've used user interfaces for systems programming for eons, and that use case hasn't died yet, we must just need a more advanced shell, rather than a different solution.
g_p 4y ago
Indeed - what a lot of comments on this topic seem to overlook is that a lot of device specific bug fixes have been put into effect for push sync in FairEmail, without battery drain, and while only using IMAP IDLE (therefore avoiding cloud sync or sending email passwords to third party services for push messages). The idea of rewriting that every few years in a new language, or using new APIs, is counter to the principle of writing robust, reliable software without regressions. In my experience, those writing software that reinvents the wheel every 5 years end up ignoring and externalising the impact of regressions on their users, for the sake of using a new language or framework every few weeks...

2-718-281-828 4y ago

Maybe he should just offer sexual services to the key employees at Google to have the app unterminated.

dang 4y ago
Please don't do this here.
- 2-718-281-828 4y ago
  It's a reference to the Kitty Lixo story (https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31436182 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31436182)

ospzfmbbzr 4y ago

Oh the irony of Google flagging ANYTHING as spyware. Google is blocked to the maximum degree possible on every device and network under my control, along with anything to do with microsoft. Funny how they are indistiguishable now. No talent and middle management heavy. Amazing how fast sites are when they aren't spying on you with google fonts being remotely loaded every time for no reason except to violate your privacy. 'Don't (just) be evil... be the prince of darkness!'

dbg31415 4y ago

Hey, I don't like the title of this post. I'm not entirely sure "falsely" is correct. After reading what I could read, seems like there was a legitimate security concern, and rather than work on it the dev just sort of said, "Meh, I don't want to do non-dev things, let's just cancel this project. It's not fun anymore." Paraphrased. He also wrote: > Core problem > Google. There is no sensible way to appeal in case of bad reviews or alleged violations of Play store policies. > People. They are generally pretty demanding and on the other hand everything should be free. > Myself. An old and grumpy developer, who maybe should retired. I 100% believe all of those points, but especially with open-source devs... most people who do those projects do them to avoid "real software" -- what I mean by that is the process that it takes to make enterprise software or software at scale. Project Managers, Product Owners, UX Designers, QA Testers, Security Consultants, etc. Most open-source projects tend to be the software equivalent of some guy in his garage building a model train set... just something you can do for fun to flex your skills. Focus on building, but not having to deal with the overhead of communicating, taking input, and compromising with others. Anyway, building a side project is fine. But... like in another post someone was complaining about the certification cost of dealing with Google Data as a 3rd Party Developer... and like... I can't get on board with the sympathy bandwagon there. I want there to be a stringent process before Google even gives app developers the ability to request access to my data -- even if it's on my behalf. And so... back to the analogy, building a model train is fine, but like... wanting to build a fully operational train all by yourself, and have others use it, ride on it, rely on it... at some point, it needs to turn into a "real" project. One of the hardest things about dealing with open-source projects is all the original creators of those projects who just don't want to play nice, and don't want to grow a team to grow and support their code. One thing I've done when an agency or company I work for has used open-source code, we try and at least set up a lunch and learn with the creator. Good to get their vision of where the code is going, good to have that line if we need them to fix bugs. But like... 99% of the time, I know that any input we give... there's just no point. The creator doesn't want input, he only really wants to play in his basement with his model train. Buy him lunch, give him as big of a guest lecture stipend as I can, and move on.

deleted 4y ago

[deleted]

dang 4y ago

Related ongoing thread: EFF and EU should respond to Google taking FairEmail off the Play store - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31433051 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31433051 - May 2022 (42 comments)

vfclists 4y ago

With over 5 million downloads ommon sense says the developer is giving up because it is not worth it, ie not enough people buy the software or donate to support its development. This is really not due to Google. Google does this a lot and not all developers rage quit on account of that. Android users it is time you forked out more to support free software developers.