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Wealthy Americans are buying second passports as a 'plan B'

139 points by resonious 4y ago

deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
docdeek 4y ago
I didn't buy my second passport but having two has been very handy. Unless it is prohibited by a law in one country or the other, and assuming you look into all the details like compulsory military service and such things, a second passport is a great investment.
- RaoulP 4y ago
  In what way has it been handy? I happen to be getting a second passport soon.
  - toomuchtodo 4y ago
    You can move frictionlessly to another country. No visa hassles, no years long process.
  - pzh 4y ago
    You can travel between the countries you hold a passport of regardless of what emergency rules they impose. No country refused entry to its own citizens during the pandemic.
    - searchableguy 4y ago
      > No country refused entry to its own citizens during the pandemic. Australia
      - Cyph0n 4y ago
        Australia even prevented citizens from leaving unless they applied for an “exception”. A complete shitshow…
      - publicola1990 4y ago
        Is it anyway legal to refuse entry to one country's own citizens? Did Aus courts weigh in on the matter.
        jhugo 4y ago
        The law is ultimately defined by the country; there is no fundamental law which could answer the question posed in your first sentence.
        deleted 4y ago
        [deleted]
      - timbit42 4y ago
        Yes, but now we know where to not get a passport.
        Cyph0n 4y ago
        Eh, it’s still an excellent passport. Decent social safety net, visa-free entry to a ton of countries, E-3 US work visa (the best US work visa class out there), and automatic residency in New Zealand.
    - slaw 4y ago
      Chinese citizens cannot go back to China.
      - ailun 4y ago
        Yes, they can.
        slaw 4y ago
        I would really appreciate if you tell me how to get back to China from US. I can't even book a flight as all flights are cancelled. https://www.ikkyinchina.com/ https://www.ikkyinchina.com/
        lvturner 4y ago
        Via Hong Kong
        slaw 4y ago
        Need permit, you can't get it in US.
        lvturner 4y ago
        Ah, fair point. I’d forgotten about the HK / China travel permit bit. Edit: assume via Singapore also doesn’t work?
        slaw 4y ago
        Direct flight from Singapore to Xiamen is 14.5k USD, but you can't book it anyway. http 404
      - dron57 4y ago
        I know what you mean, but in legal terms Chinese citizens still have a "right of entry". In reality of course there are no flights and there are onerous rules about quarantines and "Green Codes". De-facto they are preventing citizens from entering but de-jure they are still allowed. But I mean it's China, is anyone surprised here?
    - postingawayonhn 4y ago
      I'm not sure that's completely true. Some certainly had strict limits on the numbers that could enter (Australia, New Zealand, etc.) as everyone had to go through he government run quarantine systems.
      - jhugo 4y ago
        Australia made it borderline impossible and also restricted citizens from leaving (I think they were the only country to do so?)
    - SapporoChris 4y ago
      >No country refused entry to its own citizens during the pandemic. "Japan suspends new reservations on all incoming flights" https://apnews.com/article/coronavirus-pandemic-health-japan-aabae0b831fbda78133981efc1b43399 https://apnews.com/article/coronavirus-pandemic-health-japan... This was a short lived measure but did have the effect of preventing some citizens from returning. It could be argued that they could travel by boat, but I believe most ocean travel was also restricted at the time.
    - publicola1990 4y ago
      India refused entry to Indian citizens during the first year of the pandemic.
    - outside1234 4y ago
      That’s not true. Norway did - no non-residents allowed to visit.
    - Visibly3348 4y ago
      Like others said, many countries make it very difficult or borderline impossible to go back during the pandemic. Funnily enough, being treated like that makes me want to immigrate/gain a second citizenship more than ever. It's tough to feel like a citizen of one's country when the basic thing of being able to go back is so damn tough.
  - docdeek 4y ago
    I have an Australian and a European passport. Australians travelling to Europe either need to be out of the Schengen Zone in 90 days or get a long term visa. My EU passport means I don't have to worry about visas, term of stay, and get all the rights of an EU citizen even if - to this point - I've never even visited the country that gave me the passport 20 years ago. An edge use case - but one I've enjoyed - was visiting Israel and then traveling on to other countries in the region. An Israel entry stamp can cause issues entering other Middle Eastern states but, in my case, I used a different passport when traveling to other ME countries.
- saco 4y ago
  Even better if you can get it for free.
- mattbee 4y ago
  Brexit was my catalyst to (re) claiming German citizenship - my father, sister & kids got it all at once. My kids will be able to work, travel and settle around the EU which I'd taken for granted when the first was born :(
unreal37 4y ago
And the US offers the EB-5 program that offers wealthy Chinese a Green Card and a path to citizenship. Pick the log from your own eye before you pick the speck from someone else.
withinboredom 4y ago
I spent a good first portion of my career badly picking startups that would fail. I got pretty darn good at sniffing failure. In 2018, I started getting those smells from the US itself. My family packed up and moved to the EU in 2018. I don’t regret it, not for a second.
- peteradio 4y ago
  Interesting, what smells were you picking up?
  - freddybobs 4y ago
    I can't speak for original poster. But in 2018 - fascism, authoritarianism and break down of political discourse were very alarming. Now in 2022, we see it is likely Roe vs Wade gets overturned. The basis of that argument works for throwing out civil rights, contraception and voting rights. There are already moves in some states to make abortion murder and so punishable by death. And that's not even getting into the attempted coup. I'd say that's all pretty terrifying. I think I'd agree that in 2018, if you were paying attention, that the 'smell' was that's where we were heading. Now we are here.
    - immigrantheart 4y ago
      To be fair, people who are on the other side of the proverbial fence issue across you also see the same problem.
      - freddybobs 4y ago
        No 'they' don't. And prefixing with 'to be fair' is sadistically hilarious in context. To clarify. There are people who want fascism. Who want authoritarianism. Who are purposefully breaking political discourse. Who think women should be forced to have babies even if there is incest and rape. That if they get an abortion they could potentially get the death penalty. That white people are superior. That overthrowing the democracy is good (if they are doing the overthrowing). And on and on... So no and 'to be fair', 'the other side of the proverbial fence' absolutely do not 'also see the same problem.'
immigrantheart 4y ago
For those which country doesn’t allow dual citizenship. How do they skirt it?
- DamnYuppie 4y ago
  You don’t need to get citizenship to get a passport. Panama and many other countries have resident visas that get you a passport without becoming a citizen.
  - searchableguy 4y ago
    That's not possible. You can only get a passport if you are a citizen. Edit: I meant in the case of panama but looks like I'm wrong which is good to know.
    - orangepurple 4y ago
      Panama will issue a non-citizen passport to investors. I have never heard any other country do this.
      - DamnYuppie 4y ago
        There are many of the Caribbean islands that do this, if you bring over $500,000, St. Lucia comes to mind of the top of my head.
        orangepurple 4y ago
        I think they provide citizenship for this. Panama does not.
    - MerelyMortal 4y ago
      Not possible for Panama, or not possible in general? Because it's definitely possible in general. You can even get passports from organizations such as the U.N. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Nations_laissez-passer https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Nations_laissez-passer
conradev 4y ago
> there are "four C's" currently driving the investor citizenship industry: COVID-19, climate change, cryptocurrency, and conflict One of these is not like the others – is someone able to legally avoid US taxes from selling cryptocurrency by holding another citizenship?
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
- dubswithus 4y ago
  > One of these is not like the others – is someone able to legally avoid US taxes from selling cryptocurrency by holding another citizenship? Not unless they renounce their US citizenship and pay the exit tax.
- cm2187 4y ago
  Hum, not sure you can avoid climate change or covid by moving either. You might escape climate change and covid policies though.
  - hedora 4y ago
    You could look at climate projections and figure out which areas are less screwed than the US. I wouldn't bet on Europe; the Atlantic currents are near a tipping point where they shut down. That'll cover most of Western Europe in a glacier if it happens. (Go look up European cities' latitudes; the fossil record also backs up this concern.) Moving to avoid covid policies seems secondary vs. what the Supreme Court is likely to do in the next decade (especially after more justices are appointed by minority-elected presidents and senates).
- qgin 4y ago
  Not a lot of overlap between people concerned with legality and crypto-wealthy seeking multiple passports.
- fredgrott 4y ago
  Nope, the only way to avoid US taxes is to give up US citizenship
mypastself 4y ago
The article defines 300% increase in the requests made to a particular company as “skyrocketing”, but I see no base value that this change is measured against. If four dudes got themselves an extra passport as opposed to one in 2019, the numbers start sounding far less impressive.
- DeathArrow 4y ago
  > If three dudes got themselves an extra passport as opposed to one in 2019, the numbers start sounding far less impressive. If those "dudes" are multi billionaires is still impressive.
  - mypastself 4y ago
    Should we really be drawing any kinds of conclusions based on such a small, statistically insignificant dataset?
    - throwaway0a5e 4y ago
      Based on my observation it depends on whether the conclusions support your ideologically motivated goals. (I wish I was joking)
      - tobr 4y ago
        So how big is the dataset of observations you drew this conclusion from?
    - dwater 4y ago
      A small dataset is not statistically insignificant. It changes the calculations, but it is possible to make significant conclusions from small data. Whether this situation is significant or not depends on the underlying data you first asked about. Without it we cannot say.
      - mypastself 4y ago
DeathArrow 4y ago
>He said his US clients often work in tech, real estate, or crypto, and are worth between $50 million and $20 billion. >The one thing they all have in common: deep-rooted fear about the future of American society, he said. That tells a lot about the changes that happened in the American society in the recent years. I wonder if they also try to fight against those changes or they will wait for the situation to degrade more and then leave.
- _fat_santa 4y ago
  Personally I look at it in a much more benign way: Billionaires that are bored and spending their money. It's not that they genuinely fear the future of American society, it's that they've run out of ideas to protect their wealth and getting a "golden passport" is the next logical step. It's a bit like a regular joe buying one of those "seed backup" (hunk of metal that you write your bitcoin seed phrase on) devices on Amazon. What are the chances your house will burn down, leaving nothing except this indestructible seed phrase device? I'd say very low. The same can be said for the fears of these billionaires buying foreign passports. The chances of American "turning" is vanishingly small, but when you have money to burn, why not prepare for that scenario too.
  - setgree 4y ago
    Conventionally, insurance is a financial instrument designed to hedge against unlikely events, like a house fire. In the US, it’s easy to lose sight of this because we use a product called ‘insurance’ to pay for a bunch of regularly occurring expenses, like medical checkups, but that’s not really insurance, it’s a healthcare plan. Even if I thought the US was 99.5% likely to remain politically stable in my lifetime, I might still think a second passport is a good idea.
    - Out_of_Characte 4y ago
      Very much this. Although sovereigns have alot of soft power over their citizens, There's very little they can do if you pack up and leave. You'd have to be china or north korea to influence this market of people leaving for greener pastures. Elites leaving is a telltale sign of instability.
exogeny 4y ago
- DeathArrow 4y ago
  What does Peter Thiel have to do with people worried about the US society and buying an exit?
  - exogeny 4y ago
    He’s bankrolling a truly odious class of disingenuous goon political candidates who are bent on rolling back not just civil rights for half of Americans but basic things like contraception. Just look at what his protege Blake Masters is tweeting and you’ll get the picture pretty quickly. That’s the “Plan B” reference. I know HN loves Peter Thiel (who also happens to have bought citizenship in New Zealand to bring his fuck-everyone-but-the-rich mentality there too) like fat kids love cake but I didn’t think I’d be downvoted so quickly for mentioning his obvious role in undermining Roe. C’est la vie. He sucks, and I pine for the day I can say that to his, Rabois’, or any of his enabler’s faces.
    - deleted 4y ago
      [deleted]
    - boeingUH60 4y ago
      I think you’re getting downvoted because there’s no mention of Peter Thiel in the article, you brought him up for unrelated reasons.
      - exogeny 4y ago
        Sure, granted. On that point though, it’s also well-known that he bought a vanity New Zealand passport for the very reasons laid out in the article.
        etherael 4y ago
        The reasons laid out in the article have nothing to do with vanity, so which is it?
searchableguy 4y ago
I think this is the right move for most upper middle class folks. Many big developed and developing countries are increasing their taxes on young people to fund unsustainable pension systems. They are introducing exit taxes, world wide citizen obligations, compulsory reporting overseas, and restricting ease of moving your business elsewhere. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pensions_crisis https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pensions_crisis Look up pension bombs. If you predict population will stop growing, who will pay for elderly pension and healthcare where majority of funding goes in developed countries? In times of covid, countries like Australia had greater restriction than China.
- immigrantheart 4y ago
  Your first and second paragraph seems contradictory or unrelated. Could you explain a bit more?
  - searchableguy 4y ago
    If you are a citizen of a single country and they turn authoritarian like Australia in the period of covid, you are at the mercy of them. They may restrict your capital flows, shut off your local bank accounts, make it impossible to get out of the country, and a lot more. Every action they take will impact you directly as the passport holder. So having more passports allow greater freedom and stability in the long run. Nobody would have thought a highly developed western country would refuse citizen entry before covid.
    - immigrantheart 4y ago
      > Many big developed and developing countries are increasing their taxes on young people to fund unsustainable pension systems. They are introducing exit taxes, world wide citizen obligations, compulsory reporting overseas, and restricting ease of moving your business elsewhere. How does 2nd passport skirt world wide citizen obligations, compulsory reporting overseas?
      - 4y ago
jollybean 4y ago
Wealthy people everywhere do that and it's just one of the things about 'new globalism' that is actually slightly problematic.
ilrwbwrkhv 4y ago
With abortion being made illegal, senile presidents, Capitol invasions, rampant poverty, homelessness, crumbling infrastructure it has become clear that the US is on its way to becoming a failed state like Afghanistan. I think a lot of smart people are seeing the writing on the wall and making escape plans for themselves as well as for their future generations. When Rome falls, not all the wealthy Romans do.
- usrn 4y ago
  Abortion hasn't been (and won't be) made illegal. It's been "delegated^" back to the states where the decision belongs. There are always going to be liberal states where it's legal. The structure of the US as independent states coordinated by the federal government means people can hold mutually exclusive ideas about law and morality without having to live in separate nations. ^The states really delegate a small number of powers to the federal government, things like murder and abortion aren't among those. This is really the way it was supposed to be and Roe vs Wade was a mistake that undermined the legitimacy of the Supreme Court. So delegation is really the wrong word for this but a surprising number of people here seem to have almost no understanding of American civics. EDIT, I'm out of quota, here's my reply to https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31304544 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31304544 : > How do you know it won't be made illegal? This ruling says the federal government has no say in abortion rights. That prevents the federal government from legislating on it. It actually protects your rights from populist right wing mobs on the other side of the continent. > Why do you assert that it was never under the mandate of the federal government? Obviously it's a contended issue. All of the powers the federal government has are delegated to it in the Constitution. Show me where this one is. >- why do you assert anyone who disagree with you is ignorant? Perhaps they listen to the very loud lobby of anti abortion goals, and view this milestone as part of a trend and extrapolate? Regardless of how they got confused it's not an accurate view of how American government works and thinking that way is harmful to both sides EDIT 2, my reply to https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31304674 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31304674: >Here are 13 states that have "trigger laws" Right, the population there wants it banned, the population in California does not. Now both groups get what they want. It won't be banned in California and, in fact, this ruling makes it harder for republicans to ban it in states like California. This protects your rights if you live in a liberal state.
xcambar 4y ago
Any european passport is a golden ticket. I was born in Europe and only as an adult with friends from around the world did I realise that. I feel so blessed.
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
- javert 4y ago
  I would happily trade my US citizenship for an EU one. You are lucky.
  - dorchadas 4y ago
    Yep. I'm glad I took a masters program in Ireland when I did. Now just to find a job where I can actually live in Dublin and not squeak by... which sadly isn't likely give Irish salaries and how ridiculous Dublin is.
- was_a_dev 4y ago
  Same thing happened with Brexit. Many British citizens looked for applying for second citizenship by descent to maintain EU status. I myself applied for a Irish passport since my gradparents are Irish citizens.
  - reom_tobit 4y ago
    How long did the application take if you don’t mind me asking? (Foreign birth register + passport application) I looked into it a few years ago but they had such a massive backlog to deal with I was told 24 months, so I put it off.
- mardifoufs 4y ago
  Funnily enough that's the complete opposite for me. I'd trade my canadian passport for an American one anytime
mariojv 4y ago
In my anecdotal experience, it is not just ultra wealthy Americans trying to get second passports. We can't afford these investment visas, but because of our fear that gay marriage rights may be repealed [0], my husband and I are exploring the possibility of Spanish citizenship via descent. It's unclear if we can even apply before my dad gets it or become citizens without at least a year of residency, but when my dad emailed a major consulate recently, they had an automated message saying there's a 5 day wait for return emails. Their listed phone number also had no response and went to voicemail with no automated message. My in laws are also looking into Mexican citizenship by descent. I am curious how many folks are fleeing states or looking into it, also. We've checked with our workplaces about relocating out of state (Texas). That seems a lot easier than figuring out visas, but we are really dreading about how far things are going to go. We're hoping for the best, preparing for the worst. I am sure it is not just UHNW individuals who are preparing. [0] See: https://nitter.net/NoLieWithBTC/status/1521912691824148482 https://nitter.net/NoLieWithBTC/status/1521912691824148482 https://nitter.net/BrynnTannehill/status/1521481078376181760 https://nitter.net/BrynnTannehill/status/1521481078376181760 and Google around for some op-eds. There's a lot of debate around this and whether stare decisis will outweigh the court's extreme views, but ultimately there's a lot of uncertainty.
- toomuchtodo 4y ago
  Your in laws might be better served with Mexican permanent residency. The economic solvency requirements are reasonable (about $120k in a savings/investment/retirement account seasoned for a year), and once approved by a Mexican consulate in the US, the process moves very fast once you get to Mexico. There is no upkeep cost, you have it for life once obtained. The only downside is that if you bring a vehicle to Mexico from the US, even temporarily, you’re paying duty on the vehicle’s value.
  - samstave 4y ago
    Serious question, can you drive a rental car to Mexico and not pay duty? For example, could you have a car here in the us and owned by your llc, or even a friends, and “rent it from them” and drive it around Mexico?
throwawaymanbot 4y ago
danielovichdk 4y ago
There shouldn't be a second passport option. There should be an always open option to move to another country, given you can provide for yourself. The world should be open. But people must be able to provide for themselves.
- aiisjustanif 4y ago
  No borders would lead to some negative effects for societies and governments. Whether that be currency/economic instability, disease, sovereignty issues, cultural issues with human rights. We have a long way to go before we even begin a discussion on an open world.
- pc86 4y ago
  None of what you said supports the thesis that there shouldn't be an option to have multiple passports. Why?
  - mdp2021 4y ago
    OP means that "there should be no passports". Which still does not stand, because there where you have free movement that legal position can change and the citizen should inherit pertinence to some side; and even there where you have free movement it is realistically difficult to rule out the existence of some other entities which one may be interested in as document providers.
djohnston 4y ago
I've taken a paycut in the UK with the aim of getting a second passport. I'm not sure the UK will fare well in a scenario where the US goes full tilt bozo, but being an island surrounded by shitty weather has proven advantageous historically.
jmclnx 4y ago
I thought the US prohibited this by law, which to me means you can only have citizenship in the US. To me that means these people should be stripped of their citizenship and deported.
- aaomidi 4y ago
  I have two citizenships ama.
  - Hendrikto 4y ago
    Which two countries? Why? Are you spending time in both, or is it just a backup measure?
    - aaomidi 4y ago
      Iran and the US. Initially it was because I became a US citizen, I didn't really feel the need to do anything with my Iranian citizenship. At this point though, it's a backup. Some things would definitely be harder for me in Iran - but depending on how things go in the US - I might feel like I'd be safer in Iran.
- coffeefirst 4y ago
  Not at all. Actually, dual citizenship US + Canada or US + European countries is pretty common.
midislack 4y ago
Makes sense, America has been in decline for quite a while. If the violent anarchists which seemed to have the protection of our intelligence and law enforcement communities didn't scare you off, maybe an adjustment of what you thought were rights will. Alinsky will dominate American politics now that everybody knows how it works, and I think it's a good thing. We're all past pretending now.
- hall0ween 4y ago
  Violent anarchists, who are these? Also, as I am interested to learn, sources would be helpful.
  - Handytinge 4y ago
    The fascinating thing is that depending on their politicial preference, you could get a number of answers, each based off their interpretation of real events.
  - Hendrikto 4y ago
    I am guessing the violent MAGA crowd, and people looting and burning stores down.
  - midislack 4y ago
    Wow you forgot about the 2020 summer of terror already, fascinating.
    - hall0ween 4y ago
      Your political bias blocks your vision of violence at protests: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unite_the_Right_rally https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unite_the_Right_rally https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/2021_United_States_Capitol_attack https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/2021_United_States_Capitol_a... Next time you have, what I imagine you believe to be, a real good comment. Head for a mirror and look at yourself and say these words allowed: “ There are more ways to look at life, society, politics than the one I have. I haven’t given this adequate thought and my opinion is likely wrong. I should educate myself rather than write comments.”
sys_64738 4y ago
Irish passport is the golden ticket. Get access to the EU and CTA.
gcanyon 4y ago
Portugal has been the retirement plan for my wife and me since we spent time there six years ago. We’re from Southern California, so the weather feels similar, it’s beautiful, and the people were super nice. But the key differentiator was health care. We have issues that require multiple medications, and while there we needed refills. The person renting to us said to go to the ER, so we did. We were with a doctor in twenty minutes, who asked us why we had come. We said we had double-checked with the landlord and he insisted that was the right course to take. The doctor said they could have been busy and we would have had to wait, but in any case she was happy to write that refills. All up it took under half an hour and cost under $30. We’ve been to the ER multiple times in the US and never seen a doctor in less than an hour (except when I had a motorcycle accident, but that’s a different circumstance entirely). And of course no ER visit in the US costs less than thousands of $$$. And filling the prescriptions cost less than the copay in the US. Retirement is some time away, so I hope the wealthy don’t screw it up for us :-/

139 points by resonious 4y ago

deleted 4y ago

[deleted]

I didn't buy my second passport but having two has been very handy. Unless it is prohibited by a law in one country or the other, and assuming you look into all the details like compulsory military service and such things, a second passport is a great investment.

RaoulP 4y ago
In what way has it been handy? I happen to be getting a second passport soon.
- toomuchtodo 4y ago
  You can move frictionlessly to another country. No visa hassles, no years long process.
- pzh 4y ago
  You can travel between the countries you hold a passport of regardless of what emergency rules they impose. No country refused entry to its own citizens during the pandemic.
  - searchableguy 4y ago
    > No country refused entry to its own citizens during the pandemic. Australia
    - Cyph0n 4y ago
      Australia even prevented citizens from leaving unless they applied for an “exception”. A complete shitshow…
    - publicola1990 4y ago
      Is it anyway legal to refuse entry to one country's own citizens? Did Aus courts weigh in on the matter.
      - jhugo 4y ago
        The law is ultimately defined by the country; there is no fundamental law which could answer the question posed in your first sentence.
      - deleted 4y ago
        [deleted]
    - timbit42 4y ago
      Yes, but now we know where to not get a passport.
      - Cyph0n 4y ago
        Eh, it’s still an excellent passport. Decent social safety net, visa-free entry to a ton of countries, E-3 US work visa (the best US work visa class out there), and automatic residency in New Zealand.
  - slaw 4y ago
    Chinese citizens cannot go back to China.
    - ailun 4y ago
      Yes, they can.
      - slaw 4y ago
        I would really appreciate if you tell me how to get back to China from US. I can't even book a flight as all flights are cancelled. https://www.ikkyinchina.com/ https://www.ikkyinchina.com/
        lvturner 4y ago
        Via Hong Kong
        slaw 4y ago
        Need permit, you can't get it in US.
        lvturner 4y ago
        Ah, fair point. I’d forgotten about the HK / China travel permit bit. Edit: assume via Singapore also doesn’t work?
        slaw 4y ago
        Direct flight from Singapore to Xiamen is 14.5k USD, but you can't book it anyway. http 404
    - dron57 4y ago
      I know what you mean, but in legal terms Chinese citizens still have a "right of entry". In reality of course there are no flights and there are onerous rules about quarantines and "Green Codes". De-facto they are preventing citizens from entering but de-jure they are still allowed. But I mean it's China, is anyone surprised here?
  - postingawayonhn 4y ago
    I'm not sure that's completely true. Some certainly had strict limits on the numbers that could enter (Australia, New Zealand, etc.) as everyone had to go through he government run quarantine systems.
    - jhugo 4y ago
      Australia made it borderline impossible and also restricted citizens from leaving (I think they were the only country to do so?)
  - SapporoChris 4y ago
    >No country refused entry to its own citizens during the pandemic. "Japan suspends new reservations on all incoming flights" https://apnews.com/article/coronavirus-pandemic-health-japan-aabae0b831fbda78133981efc1b43399 https://apnews.com/article/coronavirus-pandemic-health-japan... This was a short lived measure but did have the effect of preventing some citizens from returning. It could be argued that they could travel by boat, but I believe most ocean travel was also restricted at the time.
  - publicola1990 4y ago
    India refused entry to Indian citizens during the first year of the pandemic.
  - outside1234 4y ago
    That’s not true. Norway did - no non-residents allowed to visit.
  - Visibly3348 4y ago
    Like others said, many countries make it very difficult or borderline impossible to go back during the pandemic. Funnily enough, being treated like that makes me want to immigrate/gain a second citizenship more than ever. It's tough to feel like a citizen of one's country when the basic thing of being able to go back is so damn tough.
- docdeek 4y ago
  I have an Australian and a European passport. Australians travelling to Europe either need to be out of the Schengen Zone in 90 days or get a long term visa. My EU passport means I don't have to worry about visas, term of stay, and get all the rights of an EU citizen even if - to this point - I've never even visited the country that gave me the passport 20 years ago. An edge use case - but one I've enjoyed - was visiting Israel and then traveling on to other countries in the region. An Israel entry stamp can cause issues entering other Middle Eastern states but, in my case, I used a different passport when traveling to other ME countries.
saco 4y ago
Even better if you can get it for free.
mattbee 4y ago
Brexit was my catalyst to (re) claiming German citizenship - my father, sister & kids got it all at once. My kids will be able to work, travel and settle around the EU which I'd taken for granted when the first was born :(

unreal37 4y ago

And the US offers the EB-5 program that offers wealthy Chinese a Green Card and a path to citizenship. Pick the log from your own eye before you pick the speck from someone else.

withinboredom 4y ago

I spent a good first portion of my career badly picking startups that would fail. I got pretty darn good at sniffing failure. In 2018, I started getting those smells from the US itself. My family packed up and moved to the EU in 2018. I don’t regret it, not for a second.

peteradio 4y ago
Interesting, what smells were you picking up?
- freddybobs 4y ago
  I can't speak for original poster. But in 2018 - fascism, authoritarianism and break down of political discourse were very alarming. Now in 2022, we see it is likely Roe vs Wade gets overturned. The basis of that argument works for throwing out civil rights, contraception and voting rights. There are already moves in some states to make abortion murder and so punishable by death. And that's not even getting into the attempted coup. I'd say that's all pretty terrifying. I think I'd agree that in 2018, if you were paying attention, that the 'smell' was that's where we were heading. Now we are here.
  - immigrantheart 4y ago
    To be fair, people who are on the other side of the proverbial fence issue across you also see the same problem.
    - freddybobs 4y ago
      No 'they' don't. And prefixing with 'to be fair' is sadistically hilarious in context. To clarify. There are people who want fascism. Who want authoritarianism. Who are purposefully breaking political discourse. Who think women should be forced to have babies even if there is incest and rape. That if they get an abortion they could potentially get the death penalty. That white people are superior. That overthrowing the democracy is good (if they are doing the overthrowing). And on and on... So no and 'to be fair', 'the other side of the proverbial fence' absolutely do not 'also see the same problem.'

immigrantheart 4y ago

For those which country doesn’t allow dual citizenship. How do they skirt it?

DamnYuppie 4y ago
You don’t need to get citizenship to get a passport. Panama and many other countries have resident visas that get you a passport without becoming a citizen.
- searchableguy 4y ago
  That's not possible. You can only get a passport if you are a citizen. Edit: I meant in the case of panama but looks like I'm wrong which is good to know.
  - orangepurple 4y ago
    Panama will issue a non-citizen passport to investors. I have never heard any other country do this.
    - DamnYuppie 4y ago
      There are many of the Caribbean islands that do this, if you bring over $500,000, St. Lucia comes to mind of the top of my head.
      - orangepurple 4y ago
        I think they provide citizenship for this. Panama does not.
  - MerelyMortal 4y ago
    Not possible for Panama, or not possible in general? Because it's definitely possible in general. You can even get passports from organizations such as the U.N. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Nations_laissez-passer https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Nations_laissez-passer

conradev 4y ago

> there are "four C's" currently driving the investor citizenship industry: COVID-19, climate change, cryptocurrency, and conflict One of these is not like the others – is someone able to legally avoid US taxes from selling cryptocurrency by holding another citizenship?

deleted 4y ago
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dubswithus 4y ago
> One of these is not like the others – is someone able to legally avoid US taxes from selling cryptocurrency by holding another citizenship? Not unless they renounce their US citizenship and pay the exit tax.
cm2187 4y ago
Hum, not sure you can avoid climate change or covid by moving either. You might escape climate change and covid policies though.
- hedora 4y ago
  You could look at climate projections and figure out which areas are less screwed than the US. I wouldn't bet on Europe; the Atlantic currents are near a tipping point where they shut down. That'll cover most of Western Europe in a glacier if it happens. (Go look up European cities' latitudes; the fossil record also backs up this concern.) Moving to avoid covid policies seems secondary vs. what the Supreme Court is likely to do in the next decade (especially after more justices are appointed by minority-elected presidents and senates).
qgin 4y ago
Not a lot of overlap between people concerned with legality and crypto-wealthy seeking multiple passports.
fredgrott 4y ago
Nope, the only way to avoid US taxes is to give up US citizenship

mypastself 4y ago

The article defines 300% increase in the requests made to a particular company as “skyrocketing”, but I see no base value that this change is measured against. If four dudes got themselves an extra passport as opposed to one in 2019, the numbers start sounding far less impressive.

DeathArrow 4y ago
> If three dudes got themselves an extra passport as opposed to one in 2019, the numbers start sounding far less impressive. If those "dudes" are multi billionaires is still impressive.
- mypastself 4y ago
  Should we really be drawing any kinds of conclusions based on such a small, statistically insignificant dataset?
  - throwaway0a5e 4y ago
    Based on my observation it depends on whether the conclusions support your ideologically motivated goals. (I wish I was joking)
    - tobr 4y ago
      So how big is the dataset of observations you drew this conclusion from?
  - dwater 4y ago
    A small dataset is not statistically insignificant. It changes the calculations, but it is possible to make significant conclusions from small data. Whether this situation is significant or not depends on the underlying data you first asked about. Without it we cannot say.
    - mypastself 4y ago

DeathArrow 4y ago

>He said his US clients often work in tech, real estate, or crypto, and are worth between $50 million and $20 billion. >The one thing they all have in common: deep-rooted fear about the future of American society, he said. That tells a lot about the changes that happened in the American society in the recent years. I wonder if they also try to fight against those changes or they will wait for the situation to degrade more and then leave.

_fat_santa 4y ago
Personally I look at it in a much more benign way: Billionaires that are bored and spending their money. It's not that they genuinely fear the future of American society, it's that they've run out of ideas to protect their wealth and getting a "golden passport" is the next logical step. It's a bit like a regular joe buying one of those "seed backup" (hunk of metal that you write your bitcoin seed phrase on) devices on Amazon. What are the chances your house will burn down, leaving nothing except this indestructible seed phrase device? I'd say very low. The same can be said for the fears of these billionaires buying foreign passports. The chances of American "turning" is vanishingly small, but when you have money to burn, why not prepare for that scenario too.
- setgree 4y ago
  Conventionally, insurance is a financial instrument designed to hedge against unlikely events, like a house fire. In the US, it’s easy to lose sight of this because we use a product called ‘insurance’ to pay for a bunch of regularly occurring expenses, like medical checkups, but that’s not really insurance, it’s a healthcare plan. Even if I thought the US was 99.5% likely to remain politically stable in my lifetime, I might still think a second passport is a good idea.
  - Out_of_Characte 4y ago
    Very much this. Although sovereigns have alot of soft power over their citizens, There's very little they can do if you pack up and leave. You'd have to be china or north korea to influence this market of people leaving for greener pastures. Elites leaving is a telltale sign of instability.

exogeny 4y ago

DeathArrow 4y ago
What does Peter Thiel have to do with people worried about the US society and buying an exit?
- exogeny 4y ago
  He’s bankrolling a truly odious class of disingenuous goon political candidates who are bent on rolling back not just civil rights for half of Americans but basic things like contraception. Just look at what his protege Blake Masters is tweeting and you’ll get the picture pretty quickly. That’s the “Plan B” reference. I know HN loves Peter Thiel (who also happens to have bought citizenship in New Zealand to bring his fuck-everyone-but-the-rich mentality there too) like fat kids love cake but I didn’t think I’d be downvoted so quickly for mentioning his obvious role in undermining Roe. C’est la vie. He sucks, and I pine for the day I can say that to his, Rabois’, or any of his enabler’s faces.
  - deleted 4y ago
    [deleted]
  - boeingUH60 4y ago
    I think you’re getting downvoted because there’s no mention of Peter Thiel in the article, you brought him up for unrelated reasons.
    - exogeny 4y ago
      Sure, granted. On that point though, it’s also well-known that he bought a vanity New Zealand passport for the very reasons laid out in the article.
      - etherael 4y ago
        The reasons laid out in the article have nothing to do with vanity, so which is it?

searchableguy 4y ago

I think this is the right move for most upper middle class folks. Many big developed and developing countries are increasing their taxes on young people to fund unsustainable pension systems. They are introducing exit taxes, world wide citizen obligations, compulsory reporting overseas, and restricting ease of moving your business elsewhere. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pensions_crisis https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pensions_crisis Look up pension bombs. If you predict population will stop growing, who will pay for elderly pension and healthcare where majority of funding goes in developed countries? In times of covid, countries like Australia had greater restriction than China.

immigrantheart 4y ago
Your first and second paragraph seems contradictory or unrelated. Could you explain a bit more?
- searchableguy 4y ago
  If you are a citizen of a single country and they turn authoritarian like Australia in the period of covid, you are at the mercy of them. They may restrict your capital flows, shut off your local bank accounts, make it impossible to get out of the country, and a lot more. Every action they take will impact you directly as the passport holder. So having more passports allow greater freedom and stability in the long run. Nobody would have thought a highly developed western country would refuse citizen entry before covid.
  - immigrantheart 4y ago
    > Many big developed and developing countries are increasing their taxes on young people to fund unsustainable pension systems. They are introducing exit taxes, world wide citizen obligations, compulsory reporting overseas, and restricting ease of moving your business elsewhere. How does 2nd passport skirt world wide citizen obligations, compulsory reporting overseas?
    - 4y ago

jollybean 4y ago

Wealthy people everywhere do that and it's just one of the things about 'new globalism' that is actually slightly problematic.

ilrwbwrkhv 4y ago

With abortion being made illegal, senile presidents, Capitol invasions, rampant poverty, homelessness, crumbling infrastructure it has become clear that the US is on its way to becoming a failed state like Afghanistan. I think a lot of smart people are seeing the writing on the wall and making escape plans for themselves as well as for their future generations. When Rome falls, not all the wealthy Romans do.

usrn 4y ago
Abortion hasn't been (and won't be) made illegal. It's been "delegated^" back to the states where the decision belongs. There are always going to be liberal states where it's legal. The structure of the US as independent states coordinated by the federal government means people can hold mutually exclusive ideas about law and morality without having to live in separate nations. ^The states really delegate a small number of powers to the federal government, things like murder and abortion aren't among those. This is really the way it was supposed to be and Roe vs Wade was a mistake that undermined the legitimacy of the Supreme Court. So delegation is really the wrong word for this but a surprising number of people here seem to have almost no understanding of American civics. EDIT, I'm out of quota, here's my reply to https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31304544 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31304544 : > How do you know it won't be made illegal? This ruling says the federal government has no say in abortion rights. That prevents the federal government from legislating on it. It actually protects your rights from populist right wing mobs on the other side of the continent. > Why do you assert that it was never under the mandate of the federal government? Obviously it's a contended issue. All of the powers the federal government has are delegated to it in the Constitution. Show me where this one is. >- why do you assert anyone who disagree with you is ignorant? Perhaps they listen to the very loud lobby of anti abortion goals, and view this milestone as part of a trend and extrapolate? Regardless of how they got confused it's not an accurate view of how American government works and thinking that way is harmful to both sides EDIT 2, my reply to https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31304674 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31304674: >Here are 13 states that have "trigger laws" Right, the population there wants it banned, the population in California does not. Now both groups get what they want. It won't be banned in California and, in fact, this ruling makes it harder for republicans to ban it in states like California. This protects your rights if you live in a liberal state.

xcambar 4y ago

Any european passport is a golden ticket. I was born in Europe and only as an adult with friends from around the world did I realise that. I feel so blessed.

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javert 4y ago
I would happily trade my US citizenship for an EU one. You are lucky.
- dorchadas 4y ago
  Yep. I'm glad I took a masters program in Ireland when I did. Now just to find a job where I can actually live in Dublin and not squeak by... which sadly isn't likely give Irish salaries and how ridiculous Dublin is.
was_a_dev 4y ago
Same thing happened with Brexit. Many British citizens looked for applying for second citizenship by descent to maintain EU status. I myself applied for a Irish passport since my gradparents are Irish citizens.
- reom_tobit 4y ago
  How long did the application take if you don’t mind me asking? (Foreign birth register + passport application) I looked into it a few years ago but they had such a massive backlog to deal with I was told 24 months, so I put it off.
mardifoufs 4y ago
Funnily enough that's the complete opposite for me. I'd trade my canadian passport for an American one anytime

mariojv 4y ago

In my anecdotal experience, it is not just ultra wealthy Americans trying to get second passports. We can't afford these investment visas, but because of our fear that gay marriage rights may be repealed [0], my husband and I are exploring the possibility of Spanish citizenship via descent. It's unclear if we can even apply before my dad gets it or become citizens without at least a year of residency, but when my dad emailed a major consulate recently, they had an automated message saying there's a 5 day wait for return emails. Their listed phone number also had no response and went to voicemail with no automated message. My in laws are also looking into Mexican citizenship by descent. I am curious how many folks are fleeing states or looking into it, also. We've checked with our workplaces about relocating out of state (Texas). That seems a lot easier than figuring out visas, but we are really dreading about how far things are going to go. We're hoping for the best, preparing for the worst. I am sure it is not just UHNW individuals who are preparing. [0] See: https://nitter.net/NoLieWithBTC/status/1521912691824148482 https://nitter.net/NoLieWithBTC/status/1521912691824148482 https://nitter.net/BrynnTannehill/status/1521481078376181760 https://nitter.net/BrynnTannehill/status/1521481078376181760 and Google around for some op-eds. There's a lot of debate around this and whether stare decisis will outweigh the court's extreme views, but ultimately there's a lot of uncertainty.

toomuchtodo 4y ago
Your in laws might be better served with Mexican permanent residency. The economic solvency requirements are reasonable (about $120k in a savings/investment/retirement account seasoned for a year), and once approved by a Mexican consulate in the US, the process moves very fast once you get to Mexico. There is no upkeep cost, you have it for life once obtained. The only downside is that if you bring a vehicle to Mexico from the US, even temporarily, you’re paying duty on the vehicle’s value.
- samstave 4y ago
  Serious question, can you drive a rental car to Mexico and not pay duty? For example, could you have a car here in the us and owned by your llc, or even a friends, and “rent it from them” and drive it around Mexico?

throwawaymanbot 4y ago

danielovichdk 4y ago

There shouldn't be a second passport option. There should be an always open option to move to another country, given you can provide for yourself. The world should be open. But people must be able to provide for themselves.

aiisjustanif 4y ago
No borders would lead to some negative effects for societies and governments. Whether that be currency/economic instability, disease, sovereignty issues, cultural issues with human rights. We have a long way to go before we even begin a discussion on an open world.
pc86 4y ago
None of what you said supports the thesis that there shouldn't be an option to have multiple passports. Why?
- mdp2021 4y ago
  OP means that "there should be no passports". Which still does not stand, because there where you have free movement that legal position can change and the citizen should inherit pertinence to some side; and even there where you have free movement it is realistically difficult to rule out the existence of some other entities which one may be interested in as document providers.

djohnston 4y ago

I've taken a paycut in the UK with the aim of getting a second passport. I'm not sure the UK will fare well in a scenario where the US goes full tilt bozo, but being an island surrounded by shitty weather has proven advantageous historically.

jmclnx 4y ago

I thought the US prohibited this by law, which to me means you can only have citizenship in the US. To me that means these people should be stripped of their citizenship and deported.

aaomidi 4y ago
I have two citizenships ama.
- Hendrikto 4y ago
  Which two countries? Why? Are you spending time in both, or is it just a backup measure?
  - aaomidi 4y ago
    Iran and the US. Initially it was because I became a US citizen, I didn't really feel the need to do anything with my Iranian citizenship. At this point though, it's a backup. Some things would definitely be harder for me in Iran - but depending on how things go in the US - I might feel like I'd be safer in Iran.
coffeefirst 4y ago
Not at all. Actually, dual citizenship US + Canada or US + European countries is pretty common.

midislack 4y ago

Makes sense, America has been in decline for quite a while. If the violent anarchists which seemed to have the protection of our intelligence and law enforcement communities didn't scare you off, maybe an adjustment of what you thought were rights will. Alinsky will dominate American politics now that everybody knows how it works, and I think it's a good thing. We're all past pretending now.

hall0ween 4y ago
Violent anarchists, who are these? Also, as I am interested to learn, sources would be helpful.
- Handytinge 4y ago
  The fascinating thing is that depending on their politicial preference, you could get a number of answers, each based off their interpretation of real events.
- Hendrikto 4y ago
  I am guessing the violent MAGA crowd, and people looting and burning stores down.
- midislack 4y ago
  Wow you forgot about the 2020 summer of terror already, fascinating.
  - hall0ween 4y ago
    Your political bias blocks your vision of violence at protests: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unite_the_Right_rally https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unite_the_Right_rally https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/2021_United_States_Capitol_attack https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/2021_United_States_Capitol_a... Next time you have, what I imagine you believe to be, a real good comment. Head for a mirror and look at yourself and say these words allowed: “ There are more ways to look at life, society, politics than the one I have. I haven’t given this adequate thought and my opinion is likely wrong. I should educate myself rather than write comments.”

sys_64738 4y ago

Irish passport is the golden ticket. Get access to the EU and CTA.

gcanyon 4y ago

Portugal has been the retirement plan for my wife and me since we spent time there six years ago. We’re from Southern California, so the weather feels similar, it’s beautiful, and the people were super nice. But the key differentiator was health care. We have issues that require multiple medications, and while there we needed refills. The person renting to us said to go to the ER, so we did. We were with a doctor in twenty minutes, who asked us why we had come. We said we had double-checked with the landlord and he insisted that was the right course to take. The doctor said they could have been busy and we would have had to wait, but in any case she was happy to write that refills. All up it took under half an hour and cost under $30. We’ve been to the ER multiple times in the US and never seen a doctor in less than an hour (except when I had a motorcycle accident, but that’s a different circumstance entirely). And of course no ER visit in the US costs less than thousands of $$$. And filling the prescriptions cost less than the copay in the US. Retirement is some time away, so I hope the wealthy don’t screw it up for us :-/