30 ms·

I accidentally loaned all my money to the US government

• postpawl 4y ago
  “if you buy before May this year, you get a guaranteed ~8.5% return over the next 12 months” I don’t think this is correct. They’re going to re-calculate the interest rate 6 months from May and it could be less than ~8.5%. So you’re really just guaranteed ~4.25% for half the year.
  • OJFord 4y ago
    Nitpick, but that's still 8.5% for half the year; it's 4.25% total return after half the year. But anyway it staying inflation-linked is presumably what people buying it want? The more often it updates the better, could go up too.
  • bombcar 4y ago
    The key was an Apr 30 purchase locked in 6 months of the rate at Apr and you knew what the next adjustment would be. There are blogs that explain it in detail.
  • Trasmatta 4y ago
    If you bought in April, you locked in the April rate for 6 months, and then the May rate for 6 more. Both values were known last month, which is why it's ~8.5%. If you buy in May, you lock in the May rate for 6 months and then an unknown rate after that.
    • postpawl 4y ago
      Ah, I see: https://www.treasurydirect.gov/indiv/research/indepth/ibonds/res_ibonds_iratesandterms.htm#change https://www.treasurydirect.gov/indiv/research/indepth/ibonds... “We set the inflation rate every six months (on the first business day of May and on the first business day of November)” So by buying in April, the next rate change on your own bond would be in October, which would still be before the next inflation rate change.
• jfk13 4y ago
  I wonder: when they say "A refund of the excess purchase will be made...", does that mean they'll refund the entire $10,000 transaction, or will they keep $9,975 of it (so that you do have a $10K i-bond investment) and only refund the excess $25?
  • delecti 4y ago
    Incidentally, that exact confusion is why he made the third transaction for $9,975. The refund on his second transaction will either be for $25 or $10,000, so his third transaction will either be refunded in full or not at all.
    • smachiz 4y ago
      If they refund the entirety of the second transaction, logic follows a third transaction of $9,975 would be correct if you actually wanted to buy $10k. I suspect that's not what's going to happen though. OP will get a refund of $25 + $9,975.
      • deleted 4y ago
        [deleted]
      • msrenee 4y ago
        Hopefully the folks whose desk this paperwork ends up on catches it and has the authority to just send back the $10k and transfer the other $10k to bonds.
      • LocalPCGuy 4y ago
        You're forgetting there appears to be a race condition at play. The third transaction was marked as canceled because the second has not finished processing and so is still counting against the total. There is no guarantee the govt system will check that again once 2 completes (in fact, I'd be shocked if it did). And by the time both 2 and 3 process, the window to buy looks like it will be closed per the author's post.
        • 4y ago
• msrenee 4y ago
  I'm missing the logic of the second 10k. He had already exceeded the limit. Why did he think that doing it again would change the outcome? It looks to me like he was going to get the extra $25 returned to him and have 10k in bonds. It's definitely vague though.
  • viraptor 4y ago
    They thought they exceeded the limit by trying to send $10000+$25, so given that the $10000 was coming back, they expected that they're again $9975 under the limit.
    • eterm 4y ago
      That's an odd interpretation of the refund. The email clearly states, > "A refund of the excess purchase..." So they'd be refunded the excess, i.e. $25. Putting another $9,975 through just feels like being "too smart".
      • viraptor 4y ago
        You could interpret the "excess purchase" as the excess amount (so $25 refund) or as the excess purchase transaction (so $10000 refund).
        • hedora 4y ago
          A purchase is a well defined noun, and this thing's UI was written by a lawyer that's paid to interpret US tax code. I'm 90% sure the author will end up with a $25 bond. There's a 10% chance it won't actually cancel the $9975 purchase, due to races between the probably bolted on email part and the thing that reconciles all the transactions by scanning their (emulated?) tape drive at night. Either way, it's pretty clearly a bug in the server implementation (unless this behavior is accidentally required by law, which wouldn't surprise me either...)
      • OJFord 4y ago
        I found that ambiguous, could either read it as the excess amount or the entirety of the purchase that resulted in excess balance. But anyway it just shows more UX issues - if it's the former then why didn't the balance update to show $10k; in either case why does it accept the payment before checking? It should just say no you've hit your limit this year, or you've already subscribed $25 this year you're limit is $9975.
• doanerock 4y ago
  WTF is with the statement next to the virtual keyboard that "(Password is not case sensitive)"
• noduerme 4y ago
  I thought the OP was being hyperbolic with the description of how comically bad this website is, until today when I tried it. Among other absurdities and mistakes that not even the most junior dev would make: * Passwords require a mix of upper/lower and special characters, however when entering your password on the ALL UPPERCASE VIRTUAL KEYBOARD, you're informed that they're not case-sensitive. * Any use of the back button gets you to an error page, from which there is no way to get back to your account. You're now logged out. It's as if whoever built the site never even tested it.
• arubania2 4y ago
  Not sure how it works in the US, but in my country the inflation-indexed bonds are still subject to the capital gains tax, so they offer a true hedge only up to a certain level. Obviously still better than regular bonds in this regard.
  • rottencupcakes 4y ago
    Worse, subject to income tax.
    • bombcar 4y ago
      Federal bonds are subject to federal income tax - but exempt from state. This can be useful to some. Munis are usually exempt from both but pay lower rates accordingly.
• fxtentacle 4y ago
  Great story :) I'm guessing it will have a happy ending because there's a thinking human on the other side. This is government, not a private megacorp.
  • notch656a 4y ago
    I honestly can't tell if this is satire.
    • Guthur 4y ago
      Yeah, it must be satire, or maybe someone straight out of uni and still waiting for the reality check.
      • beaconstudios 4y ago
        Is the US government really that bad? I hear Americans complain about it all the time but from my experience in the UK the government is mostly competent most of the time.
        • notch656a 4y ago
          It's vast and unpredictable. Example: Two weeks ago I re-entered US as a citizen. Several people ahead of me smoothly went through the border control line. I was 'randomly' chosen for inspection by border patrol, an agent fabricated a story that a dog alerted, and I was forcibly strip searched where yet another agent fabricated he saw a 'plastic baggy' coming out of my ass. This 'evidence' was used to cuff and shackle me and drive me all over the state, while the government failed to find a doctor to anally probe me against my will. A warrant was even written by a crooked agent testifying this absolute bullshit. Government incompetence cost me 16 hours of my life, cuffed and shackled and mocked by doctors and agents publicly in waiting room of multiple hospitals. After two agents examined my feces to make sure there were no 'drugs' I was released, sans the discharge paperwork that was stolen from me and sans the affidavit of the testimony the agent wrote which he conveniently neglected to hand to me when he served me the warrant. Will you end up like the guy in front of me, smoothly going through, or will you end up cuffed and shackled while agents try to get you anally probed. It's anybody's guess.
• baal80spam 4y ago
  8-10 _weeks_ for a refund?! Jesus Christ. I know that US banking system is something else but this is preposterous.
  • sokoloff 4y ago
    I don’t see any reason to think that most of that delay is in the banking system and have every reason to think the overwhelming majority of the delay is in the US government’s system.
    • bombcar 4y ago
      Exactly - I suspect there are internal checks and procedures to prevent scams involving overpayment and immediate refund. Or just as simple as “everything has to settle before we send a check” so you can’t use the US Treasury as part of a check cashing scam.
      • projektfu 4y ago
        Yes, I would think that the ACH to the government can be easily reversed if the account were fraudulent but returning the money is not so easily reversed as a scammer would withdraw it and disappear.
    • db48x 4y ago
      Correct. He’ll get the refund the day after a clerk reviews the transactions and clicks the refund button. The “Please allow N–M weeks…” verbiage you find in many types of contracts is just the other party giving themselves time to conduct that manual review. It should never be taken as an estimate of how long the other party thinks it will actually take.
      • Ekaros 4y ago
        More likely process for refund will start when system or someone reviews the refund and approves it. That might also take some time to be processed. I can imagine that their systems generally don't need to be exactly fast and might have very old integrations.
• hanoz 4y ago
  Er, what? Surely he's got the wrong end of the stick and they'll be refunding the excess $25 of his second purchase, (and now the entire $9975 of his superfluous third).
  • Jabbles 4y ago
    Yes, so for the next 8-10 weeks until the refund is processed he's effectively loaned the government his money.
    • hanoz 4y ago
      But not all of it at 0% interest as he seems to think.
      • tluyben2 4y ago
        Why? Both emails says the purchase of bonds failed and a refund will be processed; you cannot expect that to give you any interest right?
        • ricardobeat 4y ago
          10k of it is still in the bonds, which will be paid back with interest.
        • hanoz 4y ago
          The email is saying, rather clumsily, that the excess $25 of the second purchase will be refunded, and this interpretation is confirmed by fact that the third payment was also deemed to exceed the limit, which it would not have done if the second amount was being rejected in its entirety.
          • tluyben2 4y ago
            Weird he would say that as he gets an overview of the bonds he did purchase as he did with the 25$. If he got those it would be somewhat weird.
• t_mann 4y ago
  "A refund of the excess purchase will be made" Sounds like he will have made his intended 10k investment, there's no indication the system doesn't work as intended (even though it could work a lot better, obviously - the app could check for the investment limit right away, and an 8-week window for refunds, in a system that offers 2-month investments, is borderline scammy).
  • dev_tty01 4y ago
    Yeah, I would think this was a dark pattern, but it was probably just simple incompetence. The refund process sounds like it must involve humans and is therefore expensive. Presumably the system had his id number, as you said, a simple data lookup and filter to avoid over deposits would make much more sense. Setting aside the authors bad decisions, he really was dealing with a ridiculously poor system design.
  • mort96 4y ago
    But "the excess purchase" will be refunded. "The purchase" was for $10000, so that's what will be refunded. At least that's what I view as the logically "correct" way to interpret the sentence. Whether it's what the software does or not is anyone's guess.
    • t_mann 4y ago
      hmm, I'd debate whether a purchase of something that can be bought in practically continuous increements has to be seen as "all-or-nothing". If you're buying a car, of course, you can only buy a full car or none. but when your remaining purchase volume is [0,9975], I would have interpreted the excess part of a 10000 purchase as only the 10000-9975=25. also, the 8-week window is indicative that this will be reviewed by a human being, who would hopefully understand the intention behind depositing 25 and then 10000 (the intention behind depositing another 10k might be a bit less clear lol).
• ataru 4y ago
  If I ever feel an urge to try out test cases on banking apps, hopefully I'll think of this story and stop.
  • ZephyrBlu 4y ago
    This is what gets me. I would *never* send $10k just to see what happens in that scenario. Why would I want to risk that something goes awry???
    • jaclaz 4y ago
      ... and even if I did, I wouldn't dare to use the adverb "accidentally" to describe what happened.
    • dev_tty01 4y ago
      The system is so poorly designed, who's to say his unusual behavior will be handled properly? That second 10K might just disappear. He let curiosity override the rational, cynical side of his brain. It happens.
      • loeg 4y ago
        Say what you want about the software, but that 10k won't disappear.
    • _tom_ 4y ago
      If I were rich, sure. $10k for Me is like $0.10 for Bezos. But with your last $10k? That's just stupid (or fiction)
  • koolba 4y ago
    Do the same thing one does with software: setup a dev environment Either create an LLC or a child. Both can have a tax identifier. Not sure which is cheaper in the long run but the child is definitely more fun.
    • Breza 4y ago
• FartyMcFarter 4y ago
  Alternative title: "I purposefully tried to make a transaction that breaks the rules, it didn't end well."
  • IshKebab 4y ago
    ...because their system was so awful.
    • ianai 4y ago
      But why immediately do it again?!
      • Ekaros 4y ago
        Especially when there is two weeks left in the month... Like, maybe wait the same time it took your last transfer to show up just to be sure... Maybe some people just have more money than sense...
        • Breza 4y ago
          Exactly. I've used this system and your purchases show up after about one business day.
      • sgjohnson 4y ago
        Morbid curiosity?
      • IshKebab 4y ago
        Because their awful system didn't make it clear what was happening.
  • otherme123 4y ago
    So if someone makes an honest mistake and types and extra number, it's OK to both 1) don't process any amount and 2) hold the money for two months. That doesn't feel right to me. E.g. I buy shares and mistype the ticker or buy extra. It processes but then I notice my mistake and I can either fix it by selling, or decide ir doesn't matter and keep the shares. What doesn't make any sense is the broker keeping the money for two months and not giving me any share.
• lizardactivist 4y ago
  YOUR money? The U.S. government begs to differ.
• roenxi 4y ago
  > They're zero-risk bonds... To qualify this, there is zero risk that the technical letter of the agreement won't be honoured. Lending money to the US government is very high risk right now. Simple person metrics like debt to GDP indicate they're currently fighting a bigger war than WWII, and the trend-line says they are losing. If you lend the US government enough money to buy a sandwich there is a real risk that at the end of the agreement they'll return an amount of money that won't get you a sandwich. It doesn't matter that they say "inflation protected" on the tin. Exactly what happens there is uncertain, it is quite likely that there will be games played with inflation figures. Or a simple haircut of how much money they owe ("we did owe you $100, now we owe you $75. Law says so.").
  • SpaceL10n 4y ago
    The I-bond guarantees a return rate at inflation or higher. You're saying you expect negative inflation this year?
    • Blackstone4 4y ago
      I think they are saying official inflation figures can be manipulated to be below real inflation
      • midasuni 4y ago
        Last year internet experts were saying “real” inflation was high because lumber was up X% As of today, Lumber is down 30% year on year. Those same people seem to no longer talk about lumber as it doesn’t suit the narrative.
        • prepend 4y ago
          Well also because there are other factors that are high. Inflation is a basket of many goods. Just because lumber is up or down doesn’t mean inflation, overall, must be up or down. It’s not a conspiracy in this case or an official narrative. Inflation is high so reporters try to find examples. Instead of lumber, they now talk about groceries or whatever.
• hirako2000 4y ago
  Zero risk loan and guaranteed interest rate doesn't mean no risk the government won't default on repayments. If that happens, it is likely to get back the full capital + interest, but at that point in a currency worth initial capital - interest. Lending to a government is only safe when trust of that government is high. At the moment we are at a all time low since the 30s with regards to the US government treasury.
  • laurencerowe 4y ago
    This is a loan to the currency issuer so it’s effectively the same risk as holding cash.
    • noxer 4y ago
      Only if you ignore the risk of missed opportunities because its not like holding cash its like owning cash but someone else holds it and you can not do anything with it. Beside that its a loan to the gov not the currency issuer which is the Federal Reserve Bank (In the US).
    • zinekeller 4y ago
      While you have a point... it's complicated. Selective defaults are already common for companies, so there could be a chance (to emphasise, a miniscule but still-existing chance) that it'll default on this bond while still guaranteeing the value of its currency.
      • dubcanada 4y ago
        I mean it’s safe to say if the government is going to default on a 10k loan there are bigger issues.
        • hirako2000 4y ago
          Yes. But these bigger issues, while taking down more than the currency with it do leave certain investment opportunities safe. E.g gold which would likely see opposite trend in value. Perhaps also crypto, cultivable land etc. The refusal to accept governments can (and often have in history) will only make it worse for people when it happens.
• vasco 4y ago
  The venn diagram of internet users that read about super specific financial products, decide to buy them, while not even understanding the need to keep an emergency fund such that a move like this leaves them with under $200 in their account seems to be growing. It seems to be a weird mix of wall street cosplay and financial ineptitude.
  • bombcar 4y ago
    To be fair this mystical 8.4% has been plastered everywhere as a “buy now” which is causing serious fomo. Also the blog clearly indicates they were going to poke the fate bear, poked said bear, and then went surprised pikachu.
    • redisman 4y ago
      The investment is good and safe. I also bought I bonds and will buy more as I accrue cash. It’s not even really an investment as technically you make $0 in purchasing power. This is more of a UX and lack of emergency fund fail.
  • rockbruno 4y ago
    I have witnessed this working at FAANG where people usually have the choice to allocate their grants into either risky options or safe, straight cash. The amount of people I see going all-in into the riskiest option and then proceeding to not understand why they lost their "compensation" (?) when the stock drops frightens me.
    • phreeza 4y ago
      Do any faang still pay in options still? Google is mostly RSUs these days.
    • jtc331 4y ago
      Options? Or RSUs?
      • 4y ago
• imtringued 4y ago
  This guy sent $10025 and is getting a $25 refund in 8 weeks (which is a ridiculous time to process a refund) and then for some reason decided to lock up another $10k and tries to pass this off as accidential?
  • randallsquared 4y ago
    He seems to believe that he's getting two refunds in 8-10 weeks: one for 10000, and one for 9975, because he interpreted "excess purchase" as "the purchase that exceeded", rather than as "excess amount", which is the interpretation you used, and is consistent with rejecting the 9975 as well.
• dubcanada 4y ago
  It honestly sounds like you have zero idea how any of this works, saw some ad about 8% and without reading anything else decided to go all in. And then you decided you wanted to try and break the software while playing around $20k to the US treasury. And now you’re shocked you have to wait 2 months for a refund that’s technically your fault.
  • compiler-guy 4y ago
    Don’t know why you are addressing the author directly. It’s unlikely that the author reads hacker news, and even if they do, they have said anything in this thread for you to respond to.
• psnehanshu 4y ago
  The email clearly states that only the excess amount will be refunded. Yes the author decided to invest another $9,975. It is clearly his mistake.
• zulln 4y ago
  > This pseudo-security measure actually only slows down humans, not bots, because you can still edit the value of the text field using Javascript (and in fact it's easier to do it that way if you know how). Surely this is to prevent keyloggers, no slowing down bots. With that said it is questionable if it is worth it. People would probably pick less secure password as a result.
  • neogodless 4y ago
    It's also case-insenstive and limited to 8-16 characters, further decreasing the complexity.
    • tvb12 4y ago
      They actually require a capital letter when creating an account. This led to a few moments of me looking for the shift key on the on-screen keyboard before noticing the note next to the password field.
• mormegil 4y ago
  > This pseudo-security measure actually only slows down humans, not bots, because you can still edit the value of the text field using Javascript I don't think this is a defense against bots. Virtual keyboards were created primarily as a defense against keyloggers, IMHO.
  • Nextgrid 4y ago
    Are keyloggers that can’t capture screenshots still prevalent? I’d expect any software that can log keys to also be able to take screenshots, so the only thing this could potentially thwart is hardware keyloggers but they’d be a very small minority. TLDR: this is indeed BS security theatre along the same lines of blocking password managers.
    • jeroenhd 4y ago
      Hardware key loggers, which are impossible to find by antivirus, can't take screenshots. Software keyloggers and other such malware are defended against with antivirus, but hardware keyloggers must be defended against with design. Your browser will probably remember your password afterwards, so the usability decrease isn't even that bad. And that's not a security flaw either, because hardware keyloggers don't see the autofill values.
• jefftk 4y ago
  > They require you to enter your password by clicking on a virtual keyboard. This pseudo-security measure actually only slows down humans, not bots, because you can still edit the value of the text field using Javascript. I don't think this is generally worth it as a security measure, but the goal is not to protect against automation. Instead, custom on-screen keyboards are attempts to thwart keyloggers.
  • supernova87a 4y ago
    In fact, if you notice when you log in the next time, (for many people) your browser may offer to autocomplete your password and bypass the mouse-driven keyboard, so it's definitely not even hard to thwart.
    • tashbarg 4y ago
      So, in the described scenario, the password never shows up in the keyloggers log. Works as intended.
      • jandrese 4y ago
        Keyloggers track mouse clicks just as well as keystrokes. They had the password the entire time since the site doesn't randomize the keyboard layout.
        • exikyut 4y ago
          Another comment was mentioning malware that uses screenshot-on-click :<
  • jrimbault 4y ago
    But if there's a keylogger installed, why would the same keylogger not take regular screenshots ?
    • jtc331 4y ago
• xkbarkar 4y ago
  I thought this was funny. Weird comments in the thread about how he/she should have known better. Author is not making a complaint to demand internet outrage. There is no inflammatory justice warrior content here. Sheesh! Author admits they screwed up, decided to share the screwup, and who hasnt been trough that exact dunder blunder? Fun short read 8/10.
  • Jenk 4y ago
    There is a strange human phenomenon, particularly visible online. Some folk see a title like that and it triggers a "How can I blame the author?" urge within before they even open the link.
    • ianai 4y ago
      That’s definitely a thing too often. The “middlebrow rejection” or something like that. But in this case the OP got a message saying they had exceeded the limit and would get a refund. Then they repeated the transaction at the limit for a total of 20k. From reading comments here it sounds like the author both misinterpreted things and also compulsively over deposited to test the governments software. Testing government systems as an outsider is a really bad idea.
      • cmeacham98 4y ago
        Maybe I was primed by the author because I was reading their article, but I understood it the same way they did - the entire $10k was rejected because it put them over the limit. I probably would have tried the same $9975 transaction they did.
        • ianai 4y ago
          Didn’t they see at that point they were already down 10k? That’s what I thought they meant, from reading it.
        • MarcoZavala 4y ago
• dwighttk 4y ago
  “A refund of the excess purchase” seems like $25 from the second purchase and then $9975, the entire third purchase… but maybe it is all but $25 like the author assumed.
  • derangedHorse 4y ago
    "A refund of the excess purchase" seems like it might be the whole amount of the purchase assuming the "purchase" refers to the entire purchase transaction. The wording could have been clearer though and hopefully it's just the $25 from the second purchase that's returned.
    • msrenee 4y ago
      Say you go to the refrigerator store and they are selling fridges for $100 each, limit 10, or as stated in this store, limit $1000 in fridges. You give them $1100 to buy 11 fridges. They refund the excess purchase, which would be $100 or one fridge. At least that's my logic here. I feel like the excess purchase is that extra $25 plus the third transaction. But who knows, honestly? It's probably tied up in some barely-known financial law and can only be purchased with exact figures.
      • LocalPCGuy 4y ago
        You can describe your interpretation all you want, but the English used (excess purchase) is able to be interpreted in either way (the excess over the allowed about or a singular purchase that went over the allowed amount). There is no real way to know which is accurate in this situation unless the OP or someone who works there answers the question.
        • msrenee 4y ago
          Is there a problem with me explaining my interpretation? That's all I ever said I was doing. A lot of people were only talking about the excess basically having to be the entire order, so I put in my 2 cents. I never said it was the only possibility. Edit: I went back to double check that I hadn't replied more times than I realized or something. Nope, 3 whole comments explaining how I thought it might work out. That's if you count the first one where I honestly didn't understand how the author came to the conclusion they should input another $10k.
• afiodorov 4y ago
  You took one for the team. If the world ran on good software, you'd not cautiously deposit only $25 first and you'd not be tempted to stress-test the system with the $10k deposit. If the world ran on good software, the second $9.975k deposit wouldn't have bounced. Don't worry, I'll get back at them in my work by making the users suffer until they understand what good software is!
  • LocalPCGuy 4y ago
    If the software was good, it would have either returned an error prior to withdrawing funds on the 2nd transaction ($10k), or the return would be $25 (and then it's fine the 3rd transaction failed). Only as a third option would the 3rd transaction be the one that is accepted after rejecting the 2nd entirely. But lots of ways to "fix" bad software.
• sudden_dystopia 4y ago
  Are bonds issued by a dysfunctional government that is severely in debt in the middle of a couple of years of consistently tumultuous world events really “risk free” anymore though? These bonds only match inflation as defined by the government via CPI. But there is a strong argument that real world inflation is significantly higher than CPI.
  • prepend 4y ago
    They’re as close to zero risk as you can get in the world. If the US government defaults on debt, then I bonds will be the least of our concerns. So this is sort of an “all eggs in a single basket” type situation as USG pays a zero risk premium.
  • deleted 4y ago
    [deleted]
• pid-1 4y ago
  > They're zero-risk bonds with an interest rate that always matches or exceeds inflation The caveat is that you must agree with how your govt. calculates inflation. Also, your personal expenses might not be well represented by official inflation. Finally, like any bond, if you sell them before they mature you might get smaller (or higher) returns. Not saying this is a bad investment though, I just rarely see those risks discussed!
  • Breza 4y ago
    I think of I bonds as playing the role that savings accounts are supposed to play: Park your longterm emergency fund and protect it against inflation
  • prepend 4y ago
    > The caveat is that you must agree with how your govt. calculates inflation. This is an easy caveat to make as there are many other parts depending on how the US government calculates inflation. And there aren’t alternate inflation calculations out there, and certainly no consumer financial instruments pegged to them. For all its flaws, it’s the best we have. I think it’s not discussed because it’s such a sunk risk that it’s not really anything that would change someone’s mind.
    • bzxcvbn 4y ago
      > there aren’t alternate inflation calculations But there are. Institutions such as the IMF also have their own economic measurements.
      • prepend 4y ago
        I don’t think the IMF publishes US inflation numbers using their own methods.
        • bzxcvbn 4y ago
          https://www.imf.org/en/Publications/WEO/Issues/2022/04/19/world-economic-outlook-april-2022 https://www.imf.org/en/Publications/WEO/Issues/2022/04/19/wo... page 144
• ur-whale 4y ago
  OP should count themselves very lucky they're (eventually) getting an actual cash refund and not some sort of IOU only redeemable against future income tax due. When you deal with an entity that has the monopoly on legitimate violence, your bargaining power is - unsurprisingly - borderline nonexistent.
  • lom 4y ago
    That is the pessimistic way of looking at things.. The US isn’t quite yet there where they won’t let you go to court, so you could still try that
• lvl102 4y ago
  That’s why you buy through a bank. Edit: I am wrong. You can only buy it two ways which is ridiculous in my view. More to the point of the website that belongs in a museum, why can’t they update this consumer facing portal? What happened to all the people from “digitization” govt organizations? Such as 18F and usds. Oh. You mean all they do is replace the front end? Got it.
  • elicash 4y ago
    You can’t buy i bonds through a bank. You’ll be happy to know this site is in fact being redesigned per an article I read recently
  • gkuan 4y ago
    Unfortunately, for this particular type of bond, a Series I US Savings Bond, they can only be purchased through TreasuryDirect or by way of a tax refund. Since 2012, they are no longer sold through banks [1]. For regular Treasury Bills, Notes, and Bonds, buying through a broker is an option. But separately, it is a miracle that the author didn't hit the physical identity verification path [2] when signing up for the TreasuryDirect account. [1] https://treasurydirect.gov/timeline.htm?src=td&med=banner&loc=consumer https://treasurydirect.gov/timeline.htm?src=td&med=banner&lo... [2] https://money.stackexchange.com/questions/46840/treasury-direct-requires-medallion-for-verification-how-can-i-get-my-bank-to-do https://money.stackexchange.com/questions/46840/treasury-dir...
  • Redoubts 4y ago
    This is honestly one of the better interfaces for financial instruments and services. :(
  • boris-ning-usds 4y ago
    We absolutely can update this consumer facing portal, and I believe there is a Treasury team actively working to modernize this portal. Personally, I didn't even know of this portal's existence until I signed up for an account and and went through the same process the author went through. I noted the same security theater and passed it over to my USDS team to see if there's anything we can do. At first glance, simply replacing the front end is a solution, but there are bigger problems here that the author did not try. If one tries to change your bank account number, having typed in it wrong, they'll have to mail in a physical form to have it changed. As the author noted, going over $10k per year will also trigger unintended consequences that can span 8-10 weeks before the money is returned. There are problems here that goes beyond just replacing the "front end".
• jeroenhd 4y ago
  This'll be a good story to tell at the bar once all the money comes back. I'm still baffled by how someone thought "let's see what happens if I send $20k here when the system says it shouldn't be possible". Strip a few zeroes from there and I guess it's worth the funny anecdote, but these are serious amounts of money that the author just sent into the black hole of bureaucracy for shits and giggles.
  • prepend 4y ago
    It’s funny that I think lots of finance assumes that people with large sums of money will do lots of due diligence. So typically people with $20k sitting in their boring old checking don’t make such stupid mistakes. And the mistakes are pretty easy given the pretty anti-UX that banking tends to use. I think if regular people used these transactions more we’d have more errors. But then I suppose the UX would get improved because we’d have millions of transactions instead of thousands. As it is now people spend a lot of time and so bad UX can still be successful. I probably spent 20 minutes on the treasurydirect site and their purchase/transfer page as opposed to seconds on my consumer-designed bank page.
• erwincoumans 4y ago
  Just curious about the "golden window for buying I-bonds" he mentions: what is the benefit of buying ibonds on April 30, 2022 at 7.12% gain versus buying on May 1, 2022 at 9.6% gain?
  • gte525u 4y ago
    It's not really golden. It' just i-bond inflation rates are high at the moment. The bond rates are set per 6 month window - but you get it relative to the purchase date. So if you buy before the last possible day before the rate change date you would get 7.12% (annualized) for 6 months then 9.6% (annualized) for 6 months. If you buy after the rate change, you would get 9.6% (annualized) followed by some yet to be determined yield for 6 months.
    • erwincoumans 4y ago
      So the undetermined inflation rate for November 2022 has to go down to less than 7.12% (annualized) for that (the April case) to be a real "golden" opportunity? How likely is that?
      • dangle1 4y ago
        In my personal calculations, I've been comparing the return from I bonds to CDs. Right now, the I bond provides higher interest than CDs have provided since the 80s. However, since the I bond term readjusts in 6 mo intervals, it's possible for CD rates to catch up in the next two years as interest rates rise. So if there is anything 'golden' about the situation, it's the opportunity to (perhaps briefly) receive 80s-era guaranteed interest rates.
        • gkuan 4y ago
          One interesting thing is that even nominal Treasuries are yielding above CDs at the moment but the difference is more like 20 bps or so. Can you imagine the people who bought i bonds in the 2000s when the fixed yield part of the return was 3.6%? Though they obviously had their ups and downs, but right now if they held on they are sitting on a year of 10%+ yields.
• parkingrift 4y ago
  I-Bonds have rules. For example, you have to hold the bond for five years or you must pay back three months interest. I expect in about 12 months there will be a horde of people upset when they find that out.
  • compiler-guy 4y ago
    And those people will have gotten all their advice from a page that humorously details just how hard it is to use the website and warning them to be careful. Hard to put that on anyone but the purchasers.
  • jzig 4y ago
    Nine months at 9% still better than twelve at 0.1%
    • parkingrift 4y ago
      It is recalculated every six months. For simplicity let us assume the 7.12% April rate stays the same for 12 months. $10,000 individual purchase. Interest is added monthly but it does not compound, ever. After one year you have earned $712 in interest. However, if you sell at this time you must pay 3-months interest which amounts to $178. Your net gain for the year is $534 for an actual rate of 5.34%. 5.34% is pretty good for a guaranteed return, but it is significantly less than people are expecting. ...especially people such as OP who decided to seemingly purchase a Series I bond on a whim.
      • jzig 4y ago
        Still better than 0.1% > but it is significantly less than people are expecting. What people, and what expecting? I think OP new exactly what they were getting into.
• fny 4y ago
  The irony of these ibonds is that the payments will contribute to even more inflation.
• cft 4y ago
  It could be that the email was ambiguous (because the refund amount was not stated in the email) and he'll get back only $10,000 total (only $25 from the first deposit), in which case he's actually purchased $10,000 worth of bonds, but he'd only find this out in 8-10 weeks. Shoddy software like this undermines general trust in the government.
• tgsovlerkhgsel 4y ago
  My understanding is that he bought $25, then another $9975 when he tried the $10k purchase, then $0 when he tried the $9975 purchase. So he should receive $10k in bonds and $25 + $9975 in refunds.
  • Lochleg 4y ago
    It's the US government so it's safer to assume that only a $25 transaction went through. I am surprised the person didn't rethink things after the experiment went badly with $10K in limbo. It sounds like they should just mess around on a testnet the next time they feel like bucking the system.
• flywithit 4y ago
  My goodness. People applying wallstreetbets thinking and Robinhood exploits to US treasuries, the safest financial instruments in the land, goes to show there’s just too much money sloshing around in the system.
• deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
• lesgobrandon 4y ago
  [dead]
• ds 4y ago
  Quick question for HN people: Is there a instrument like a I bond that doesnt have a 10k limit?
  • deleted 4y ago
    [deleted]
  • 300bps 4y ago
    Nothing exactly like it but TIPS are Treasury Inflation Protected Securities. Probably best to buy them in a fund due to their complexities. Vanguard and Fidelity both have funds for them.
    • redisman 4y ago
      They are lagging or get less of a return. The TIPS I have are yielding 6.25% right now. Still a fine place to park if you think the market might dump more or go sideways. Just pay attention to when the dividend pays and don’t sell before that
      • 300bps 4y ago
        Thanks for the extra details! What do you think of buying a TIPS fund instead of purchasing TIPS directly?
  • dmurray 4y ago
    Yes. There are TIPS, which are like I-bonds in that their yield is indexed to inflation, but unlike I-bonds in that you can't buy them at an artificially low price.
    • deleted 4y ago
      [deleted]
  • curiousllama 4y ago
    I bonds are government subsidized, so no. The closest thing would be TIPS, but they have guaranteed negative real returns.
• wfhordie 4y ago
  If you haven’t done something stupid like this a few times in your life, you ain’t living. This is a perfect HN post because it combines terrible technology and “let’s see how it breaks.” Thanks OP, a delightful Sunday read.
  • fargle 4y ago
    AND, crapulifically one day north of the deadline for those who didn't know about I-bonds. Well played, sir. Well played.
• shireboy 4y ago
  What is the “might be screwed if you purchase after May”? I understand what I bonds are and am considering, but am missing why the May cutoff?
  • baobabKoodaa 4y ago
    This 8.5% calculated inflation rate is a temporary anomaly and the author expects it to drop significantly, so if you purchase after May you might get significantly lower interest on the bond.
    • js2 4y ago
      8.5% rate is based on locking in 7.12% for first six months (Nov 2021 - Apr 2022 rate) and 9.62% for second six months (May - Nov 2022 rate). You only "get screwed" depending upon how much the rate drops in future adjustments. I personally think this is an overblown concern given the absolute dollar amount is so tiny. We're talking about interest on $10K. It's just not that much, a few hundred dollars. https://tipswatch.com/2022/04/24/lets-handicap-the-i-bonds-fixed-rate-equation/ https://tipswatch.com/2022/04/24/lets-handicap-the-i-bonds-f...
      • baobabKoodaa 4y ago
        Sure. I just explained what the author's concern was. I'm not arguing in favor or against that concern.
        • js2 4y ago
          I'm in agreement with you. I was just trying to provide some additional color. :-)
• codedokode 4y ago
  Judging by screenshots in the article, I don't think that UI is as bad as described. Actually, it is better than UI of private commercial financial institutions. It uses black letters on a white background, links are properly underlined, no annoying notifications from CEO, no full screen popups, no timers making you hurry, no attempts to upsell something unnecessary, no asking to subscribe for a newsletter, no deceiving descriptions that mention only good sides and conceal the risks. Regarding virtual keyboard, of course it would be better to use physical keys, but for reasons I don't understand they don't have a wide adoption that they deserve.
• smarx007 4y ago
  > Obviously I was only allowed to buy another $9,975. But if I tried to buy $10,000, what would happen? It must be a common type of error. Would they let $9,975 go through and return $25? Would they reject the whole transaction? Would the rejection happen immediately, in an hour, in a day? It was a morbid curiosity. I already knew I was using lackluster software, yet I wanted to see just how inept it could be. No real damage could be done, I figured. Does not sound like an accident, but a clickbait instead.
• gavinray 4y ago
  Is this window the author speaks about still open? I don't know anything about money/finance. Can someone ELI5 to me if I can still get the free money from this, this year?
  • 8bitben 4y ago
    You missed the window to lock in the older interest rate (7.12% APY) for six months, but it is widely expected that the May rate change will increase the rate even higher. You can still purchase I-Bonds, with the understanding that the May rate will be adjusted again in 6 months (it could go down if inflation goes down) and you won't be able to pull your funds for a minimum of one year. It's a great option for inflation protection if you can let that money sit for awhile. https://www.treasurydirect.gov/indiv/research/indepth/ibonds/res_ibonds.htm https://www.treasurydirect.gov/indiv/research/indepth/ibonds...
    • swarnie 4y ago
      Is this open to non-US citizens? Arguably an i-bond would out preform anything in my portfolio based on the last six months.
      • sgent 4y ago
        You have to have a social security number so citizen, current or former resident or work visa holder.
        • robocat 4y ago
          Not former. From https://www.treasurydirect.gov/indiv/research/indepth/ibonds/res_ibonds_ibuy.htm#who https://www.treasurydirect.gov/indiv/research/indepth/ibonds... Yes, if you have a Social Security Number and meet any one of these three conditions: - United States citizen, whether you live in the U.S. or abroad - United States resident - Civilian employee of the United States, no matter where you live
  • nknealk 4y ago
• noasaservice 4y ago
  The real stupid here is that "8 to 10 weeks to return money" is the timeframe to return money.
• LaMarseillaise 4y ago
  I have learned the hard way that when dealing with government software (at least in the US), you must assume the least favorable/most unfavorable interpretation of any information given. When I saw the email informing the author of the over-purchase, I knew there was no way out. Purchasing the difference, as the author did, would only cause more trouble. The questions now are how much will be refunded, whether any purchases will go through, and whether there will be a fine or legal action. Refer to the rule above for my guesses. I think many people do not appreciate how devastating this is to public trust.
• gfodor 4y ago
  This is why for example when you take your car to the DMV to get a new drivers license, there is always a small chance you will leave without a license, or a car for that matter.
• rhexs 4y ago
  Best part is, I went in to login this morning to check my account and it's down for "system maintenance". At least the government is consistent with running a service that feels like it's out of 1998. I never want to see what their backend database looks like -- probably ROT0ing the passwords.
• todd8 4y ago
  Roughly the same thing happened to me on a much much bigger scale. I was making an estimated income tax prepayment (as required by law) on the ridiculous IRS direct pay site. There was no way to undo my error that I could find on the IRS websites. I foolishly thought that when the IRS web page said something like “system problem try again later” meant that I should try again later. I feel like the agencies should just let Visa or Mastercard handle billing and collection.
  • misiti3780 4y ago
    you get that money back in 2-3 weeks though.
    • deleted 4y ago
      [deleted]
  • adrianmonk 4y ago
    In the early days of the web, I did this with college textbooks. It was the very first semester that textbook web sites were open for business. IIRC, they advertised heavily. A zillion college students got on the site all at once to save money and try out this new e-commerce concept, and the site collapsed under the load. I went through the process 3 times and got an error each time. Eventually I gave up and decided I'd have to buy books in person the old-fashioned way. I'm pretty sure I got at least 2 sets of books delivered to me. I had to arrange for a return, and customer service wasn't happy about it. These days, it's pretty obvious that an error on a web page doesn't conclusively mean a purchase didn't go through, but back then I don't think either they or I clearly understood that.
• bhaney 4y ago
  > if you buy before May this year, you get a guaranteed ~8.5% return Of course I'd learn about this on May 1st
  • redisman 4y ago
    I bought on Friday and they marked me for Monday so I missed it too. BUT I don’t think inflation is going down this year so whatever. China is in lockdown, Russian energy imports are curtailed, Ukrainian grain supply is down 20% at least. If it’s a supply side issue things are only getting worse
  • readthenotes1 4y ago
    Inflation hasn't gone down. You might get more if you buy between now and November.
• mise_en_place 4y ago
  This is the case with many retailers too, I bought a faulty appliance and returned it. However I didn’t receive merchant credit til almost 8 days later.
• ei8ths 4y ago
  I feel like this is something that would happen to me. its funny and sucks at the same time.
• omaranto 4y ago
  I was (pleasantly) surprised to see that the analogous website for Mexico, where you buy government-issued bonds called Cetes, is significantly less confusing to use. That is not at all what I expect when comparing government websites between my native Mexico and the US! (Paying taxes is another example of something with much, much better UI/UX in Mexico, but there probably are not many other examples.) Also, the refunds for Cetes when you go over the limit take a few days, not 8 to 10 weeks.
  • everybodyknows 4y ago
    How does the interest rate on Cetes compare to inflation?
    • omaranto 4y ago
      I think they are almost always pretty close to inflation, and have been both slightly below and slightly above it at different points in time.
  • gridspy 4y ago
    It's probably because software contracting by the government is tidier in Mexico. Also, the US tax system is partially the result of lobbying by parties such as TurboTax [1]. I'm glad I live in NZ, another smaller country with great online systems for government interactions. [1] https://www.nbcnews.com/business/taxes/turbotax-h-r-block-spend-millions-lobbying-us-keep-doing-n736386 https://www.nbcnews.com/business/taxes/turbotax-h-r-block-sp...
• sydthrowaway 4y ago
  Could he have made $850 with that 20k the meantime?
• jaimehrubiks 4y ago
  I've been in the US for 4 years and it seems like the government is just like a computer that you cannot talk to or get issues fixed somehow. It's like, if something goes wrong you're fucked. If USPS loses your documents or even your car's title, or your immigration approval notice, you're fucked, you might need to wait 2 months, or 6, or 8, and nobody cares, nobody will help you. There's no one that can help you. At least that's how I feel here.
  • mindslight 4y ago
    In general, the solution to your problem is to hire an attorney. They're expensive and overkill for most things, but they know how to "talk" to the government. And just as you'd expect from Vogons, it's painful to watch. Otherwise you're effectively left as your own lawyer, having to know tricks of how to communicate/escalate and doing online research to find out. In general if you can get a government agency on the phone they can be quite helpful (their customer service hasn't been optimized away like private companies), but you still need to know what to ask for and how to work with their bureaucratic minds. For example, for something like a car's title, you could probably apply for a duplicate title from the DMV and get another one sent. But for immigration problems I've got no idea.
    • jaimehrubiks 4y ago
      With immigration, attorneys are not a solution either. If USCIS asks them to wait 3 months before asking for re-sending a document, they shall do that. It doesn't matter if you are 2 months away from getting deported. And the papers can get lost again. For the title, I've known a person that had the issue. It was the duplicate that was lost again, not sure why they couldn't request another one, not sure if a lawyer would have helped. But the result was a wait time of 6 months (instead of the supposed 3-5 weeks)
    • akimball 4y ago
      The immigration system is apparently designed to do as much damage as possible. It certainly is destroying a huge portion of the global economy and polity.
    • 4y ago
• 0daystock 4y ago
  > it dawned on me that not only did I just loan $19,975 to the government for 2 months with zero interest, but I’d locked myself out of the golden window for buying I-bonds. This guy has less than 20 grand to his name and he's investing in I-Bonds? That's the real tragedy.
  • sangnoir 4y ago
    Ok, I'll bite - what should they be investing in if their investment horizon is 12 months? The stock market is in the middle of a correction, and there's no telling when that will end.
    • ellisv 4y ago
      > This guy has less than 20 grand to his name and he's investing in I-Bonds? That's the real tragedy. That was the shocking bit for me too, although I suspect (hope?) the author has more money outside that bank account. I wouldn't recommend anyone with only $20k invest it or at least not entirely. Sure they have (probably) the best risk-adjusted return right now but Savings I Bonds aren't a great emergency fund because of 12 month lockup and 3 month interest penalty for liquidation in the first 5 years.
      • sangnoir 4y ago
        Author intended (still intends) to invest only half of that though. Putting $10k in bonds with yields greater than inflation strikes me as a good plan. It's certainly better than keeping the whole amount in sub-inflation-interest bank account.
• nodesocket 4y ago
  > so the math works out such that if you buy before May this year, you get a guaranteed ~8.5% return over the next 12 months, but if you miss this month you might get screwed. Can anybody elaborate on this? If I buy on Monday what’s the rate?
  • redisman 4y ago
    9.something. The speculation is that the next rate 6 months from now would be lower if the fed can get inflation under control. It’s a bit of a over hyped point
• midjji 4y ago
  I always find it fascinating that one of the few things so badly designed that they just have to be a scam, is actually real .gov stuff.
• nullc 4y ago
  The obsession with the high variable rate on ibonds right now strikes me as weird. With a fixed rate of 0% at the moment, the ibond is an "investment" which is guaranteed to lose real value because the 'gains' from the ibond are taxed so if the fixed rate is zero it will lose real value. It will also lose value due to systematic understatement of inflation e.g. due to the substitution correction-- but even if you believe that its inflation metric is fair the taxation makes it lose value. Now-- if your investment plans direct you to hold something cash-like which ibonds withdraw delays are still good enough to satisfy, then okay sure, it does pay more than cash. But that's the right comparison. Ibonds are not, for example, a good alternative to buying a market index with a historical return of 10% after inflation.
  • redisman 4y ago
    What are the options? Get -8% on your checking or savings or a very volatile stock market return? It’s perfect for saving for a down payment. I’d still of course max out 401ks and such in addition
    • nullc 4y ago
      I wouldn't say perfect-- in that there is no strong reason to believe that the returns on your ibonds will reflect the amounts you need for your down payment or the discounted future value of your mortgage payments (particularly since CPI excludes housing)... but it might well be the best option available if you have a short time horizon. For a long time horizon, broad market index investments have reliably outperformed home prices. It would be an interesting backtesting question: Imagine you have enough money for a down payment on a median priced home, consider two options: put the money into ibonds vs put the money into a market index. Then after X months, what percentage of the time is the investment still able to meet the downpayment requirements of a median priced home (at that time, which might be more or less than before)? It's not guaranteed that the ibond option will be less volitile because what we're comparing is market vs home-market, so it might not even win out over short term. For really short windows the ibond interest clawback will hurt it too. Since home prices have increased substantially faster than inflation the success rate of the ibond option will (assuming the future is like the past) tend to 0% success for longer time windows. Since market returns have outpaced housing costs, the market investment will tend to 100% on longer time windows. Personally, I might well just go the market index route: Even if we presume the ibond success rate is better in a short window (I think that's a reasonable assumption), "It always takes longer than you expect, even when you take into account Hofstadter's Law" and the market index is the clear winner in the long term. It would be sad to constantly be expecting to buy a house 1 year out, invest in underperforming investments, and as a result never be able to afford a house because they were always escaping your investment!
• bradwood 4y ago
  I stopped reading when I got to "They're zero-risk bonds..."
  • everfree 4y ago
    US treasury bonds are generally considered "zero-risk" in finance, it's a pretty common notion.
    • bradwood 4y ago
      I know this. But government bonds, including USTs, are not zero-risk. Sovereign risk exists on all government debt, including US debt.
      • everfree 4y ago
        Treasuries are considered zero risk in the sense that if they default, the rest of your portfolio is going to be worthless anyways and you're probably better off investing in guns, water, and cans of food. Because the US government prints the dollar that the debt is denominated in, there is no risk that they would be unable to repay the debt, so it would have to be their explicit choice. Technically the USA's elected congresspeople might be able to repeal or sidestep the 14th amendment and pass legislation causing the government to willingly default on their debt, but a move like that would likely cause a global financial panic and potentially even a collapse of the dollar itself, very quickly costing them many, many multiples of the amount of "money" saved. That's if the dollar is even still considered to be money at that point. The government would start hemorrhaging money in the bond markets far before a bill like that could actually pass, due to investors pricing in the possibility of willful default. The first moment a congressperson even proposed it seriously in a tweet, the rates would be affected in a small but measurable way. Even in a crazy hypothetical where the USA were entirely annexed by a foreign nation, it probably still wouldn't default on its debts, because the annexing country would want to preserve the asset of the USA's reputation for repayment. So, what's the chance of the USA repealing the 14th amendment by a bipartisan 2/3 vote, then willingly choosing to surrender all of their power to other countries on the global stage? Like I said, the word "risk" starts to lose all meaning at that point. You're better off buying some books for entertainment, because you'll need to stay in your bunker for quite a while. When you say "there's a non-zero chance that the US Government defaults", you might as well be saying "there's a non-zero chance that everyone comes to the sudden realization that money is dumb and we should stop using it".
• dehrmann 4y ago
  > I-bonds are either free money or the only true money storage...But the government only lets each person buy $10,000 of I-bonds a year. That's too little to be true money storage. It's not enough to buy any new car.
• deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
• mensetmanusman 4y ago
  This reminds me of when I gave my new work-subsidized printer my CC during the pandemic. It tried ordering new ink based on supply levels and apparently became upset with the supply chain delays so it kept trying to order as the ink remained low. (Of course, I didn’t recognize this for a while…) Silly me, I had assumed someone would code a simple ‘check-if’ flag in the ‘order ink’ algorithm…
• Aeolun 4y ago
  Am I crazy or will the author get a refund of the “excess purchase”, e.g. $25 refunded to their bank account (until they dumped in an extra $9975 anyway)
• kyawzazaw 4y ago
  Why doesn't the USDS get involved in this? The Treasury is supposed to be a huge backbone of the world's economy and it doesn't look good imo to have software designed this badly for it.
• blakesley 4y ago
  I'm glad to see I'm not the only internet user who wonders "will this fail?" to the point that they try the problematic action before their original, intended action. It's this kind of thinking that got me into software QA a decade ago.
  • collinvandyck76 4y ago
    I'm just amazed that they decided to poke the black box with 1) their savings and 2) the black box being owned by the federal government. /salute
• salford 4y ago
  Seeing the US treasury website's incredibly poor UX for buying I-bonds convinced me that, as bad as TurboTax is for doing "free" tax returns (see https://www.propublica.org/article/inside-turbotax-20-year-fight-to-stop-americans-from-filing-their-taxes-for-free https://www.propublica.org/article/inside-turbotax-20-year-f...), maybe we would not in fact be better off if the IRS make its own website for doing tax returns.
• 3252624626 4y ago
  > Recently I learned that the US government offers a little gift called I-bonds, and that this is the month to buy them. Basically an ordinary HNer saw that article posted here about I-bonds, and like a typical HNer, probably thinks they're a lot smarter than they actually are, so they went and tried to buy a financial product they didn't fully understand, made a mess of it, and now blames the UI.
  • _tom_ 4y ago
    If you are familiar, could you post a short explanation? I'm also curious as to why buying in may is too late. Edit: https://www.treasurydirect.gov/indiv/research/indepth/ibonds/res_ibonds.htm https://www.treasurydirect.gov/indiv/research/indepth/ibonds... Doesn't explain why may is too late.
    • 3252624626 4y ago
      This is the article the OP read: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31006354 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31006354
• js2 4y ago
  Once I was on an automated monorail at a zoo and my wife and I were the only people on the train at that moment. I wondered, what would happen if I forced the doors open? The answer is that the train stopped immediately and eventually someone came on the intercom, asked us not to bump the door, and then the train restarted. Another time, I was using a public restroom and it contained a very large red button with a very large sign that read "ATTENTION DO NOT PUSH RED BUTTON UNLESS IT IS AN EMERGENCY"[1]. I did not push the button and my curiosity about remains unsatisfied. Point is, just because the Federal government ordains that the limit on series I bonds is $10K purchased electronically plus $5K purchased with tax refund per tax ID[2] per calendar year, you shouldn't expect the web site itself to enforce this limit. There's all sorts of ways you can accidentally or intentionally exceed limits, sometimes systems will catch them, but sometimes not. In prior years, you could even apparently get away with exceeding the limit with no more than a stern warning not to do it again[3]. I'm fairly confident OP misinterpreted the emails they got from Treasury Direct, and that the Treasury will refund the excess amount of the purchase, not full transaction amount. At this point, they own $10K in Series I bonds and will receive a refund for the excess $10K. I'm curious if they'll get the refund as a single transaction for $10K, or as two transactions of $25 and $9975. [1]: https://imgur.com/jAKRPQt https://imgur.com/jAKRPQt [2]: You can use "Entity Accounts" to purchase additional bonds. https://www.treasurydirect.gov/indiv/help/tdhelp/help_ug_292-entityaccountslearnmore.htm https://www.treasurydirect.gov/indiv/help/tdhelp/help_ug_292... [3]: https://old.reddit.com/r/personalfinance/comments/na13f/exceeding_the_i_bond_limit_on_treasurydirect/ https://old.reddit.com/r/personalfinance/comments/na13f/exce...
• AdrianB1 4y ago
  When I started reading and got to the portion where the author is saying that money to compensate for inflation is "free money", I immediately thought: "this person does not understand the world, should not do financial investments without professional assistance". Then the rest of the story confirmed it. There is some educational value in posting this here, but still the bar is quite low.
• michaelmrose 4y ago
  Ok you purchase $25 then you purchase $10,000 instead of $9975. Are we sure based on the message that they in that scenario that they are refunding the entire purchase of $10,000 or just the excess $25? If that was so it would make perfect sense that the third transaction to purchase $9975 would fail because you already purchased your limit in the second transaction. In that case user would expect 2 refunds 25 and 9975 NOT 10,000 and 9975.
• akimball 4y ago
  We don't care. We're the government.
• discardedrefuse 4y ago
  Thanks for the reminder! I purchased back in November when it was 7.12%. It's time to re-up!
• Teknoman117 4y ago
  Is the purchasing limit per calendar year or is it over a 12 month period?
  • whichquestion 4y ago
    calendar year, see: https://www.treasurydirect.gov/indiv/products/prod_ibonds_glance.htm https://www.treasurydirect.gov/indiv/products/prod_ibonds_gl...
• iwanttocomment 4y ago
  I had it in my mind during the Great Recession that quantitative easing was going to create a ton of inflation in the 2010s, so I started putting money in I-Bonds each year. That inflation never came, and I did pull some funds out of the I-Bonds for real estate transactions along the way (no regrets) but I've still been buying them every year as a hedge. What's great today is that the I-Bonds really have softened the blow of inflation, since after having them sit there with a low interest rate for a decade, I'm able to say "AHA! Finally! The I-Bonds were worth it!" It's a brief moment of cheer in each depressing news cycle. That enthusiasm is tempered by the fact that I'm not actually making money with them, of course. But good lord is that TreasuryDirect site the worst site on the Internet. Every single time - and I mean every single time - I instinctively click the back button to go back to a prior screen only to be presented with an error message and thrown out of my session, requiring another visit to the god-awful virtual keyboard and navigation through menu after menu of curiously similar, poorly-worded options. They can do better.
• niij 4y ago
  Tangentially related: can you buy I-Bonds through a brokerage or does it HAVE to be via Treasury Direct or filing taxes?
  • janejeon 4y ago
    iirc it HAS to be thru treasurydirect (or taxes for the paper bonds version)
• poopypoopington 4y ago
  Why was April the month to buy them?
• ra0x3 4y ago
  Such a good read. In trying to expose a hole in the site’s logic, the site exposed a hole in OP’s logic. Gotta love the irony
• busyant 4y ago
  I did something analogous?/similar-ish recently. I tried to pay my parents' credit card balance (let's say it was $1000). I went through the process and received an automated email saying, "Thank you for paying $1000 on the credit card." Got a call from my father a few hours later telling me he spent another $300 and could I please pay the extra $300...? So, I signed in again and paid another $300. Only thing is, unbeknownst to me, the $300 payment canceled the $1000 payment -- because they both were scheduled for the same day. I only found out when I signed in a few weeks later and saw a $40 interest charge for not paying the full balance on the credit card. <grumble>... Definitely my fault for not paying closer attention, but still annoying.
  • justusthane 4y ago
    They will almost certainly refund the $40 if you call and ask nicely. I have a couple times called (various credit card companies) and said, "Look, I've been a cardholder for years, I pay off my full balance every month, I just forgot this time. Can you please refund the $70 interest fee and the $25 late payment fee"?
    • Breza 4y ago
      Totally agree. Being friendly and having a small request that's easy to explain can get you a lot.
• everybodyknows 4y ago
  Actionable item for US taxpayers: > ... deposited to your TreasuryDirect account by the IRS as a result of an IRS tax refund ... The how-to: https://www.treasurydirect.gov/indiv/research/articles/res_invest_articles_tax_refund_1208.htm https://www.treasurydirect.gov/indiv/research/articles/res_i... Anyone know when this became possible? I've been buying I-bonds for years and it's news to me. Paper bonds have been a hassle, all-online is a huge improvement.
• conradludgate 4y ago
  Posts and threads like this make me so happy to be using the payment stack that is in the UK. We have the Faster Payments scheme which now allows moving £1million pretty much instantly (no card fees). And now we have open banking which makes creating bank transfers like this trivial for the end user [disclaimer, I work for a leading open banking API company in the UK] and the right API can be just as easy as stripe to use I guess it's in part helped that we were stuck with only a few old major banks until the last decade when the technology was ready for the new challenger banks to actually offer new interesting ideas. I think the US is stuck with thousands of smallish banks that somehow need to send cash between themselves.
  • zerocrates 4y ago
    There's an ACH involved here which isn't unrelated to the slow speed, but the main issue here is just that you can only buy this particular savings bond directly from the government using this one website.
• lostlogin 4y ago
  This reminds me of a time I played with entering data into a terrible system. A GE MRI scanner had options in the software that could be on, or off. Rather than a check box you typed ‘1’ or ‘0’. This is relatively recently. I tried for a while to find a field that would accept other values, and eventually found one. When the sequences ran it crashed the scanner and the patient had to be rebooked as the reboot takes a long time. I don’t test on patients anymore.
  • mort96 4y ago
    I.. wouldn't like to be trapped in an MRI machine with an operator who's typing random values into the software to try to see what it does. I mean I know MRIs are relatively safe, but they're still huge machines with moving parts you're supposed to be inside of.