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Airbnb’s design to live and work anywhere

• eric4smith 4y ago
  More and more companies will follow and this is exciting news! Our travel company will be preparing complete packages for these kind of 90 day work experiences in Thailand, Bali and Vietnam. Anyone interested hit me up in my profile!
• wackget 4y ago
  "You can move anywhere in the country you work in and your compensation won’t change" But if you move to a different country, suddenly the work you do is worth less to the company? Roles should be paid for the skill and work required, not the location of the employee.
  • tfandango 4y ago
    This is the thing that stood out to me as well. It sounds like they are moving to a single pay tier and if you are currently below that, you will receive an increase. I think that implies the single tier is the same as the current max salary since they did not mention a decrease. I'm interested to see how this plays out since it could indirectly effect me as I live in a low COL location and my company currently adjusts salary depending on your location.
• HenriTEL 4y ago
  It's all fun and games until you start to be serious about the climate change. I mean maybe there is a contradiction between being green and the work in 170 countries up to 90 days per year + gather in person every quarter policy.
• twobitshifter 4y ago
  This is incredible, and everything that any remote worker has asked for. I hope others will follow their lead.
  • dealmeidaleon 4y ago
    It is, and it’s pretty much what Shopify has announced more than a year ago. Nice to see other big names joining this trend.
    • User23 4y ago
      Including the 90 day almost anywhere thing. Except for notable exceptions like North Korea, Iran, California, and New York. The latter two are for tax reasons of course. Still made me chuckle though.
• scoofy 4y ago
  If this is the future, salaries will come down, and people will move to smaller cities.
  • DevKoala 4y ago
    Isn’t that good? High concentration of capital in specific geo’s isn’t that great either.
    • bradlys 4y ago
      None of it really matters tbh. Without proper taxation and building policy - it’s all moot. Small town with a bunch of millionaires is just as bad as a big city with them. Policy is what will dictate whether or not this is good and that’s not within the hands of any company. That’s up to the federal, state, and local governments. (Of which are all fucked - of course)
      • DevKoala 4y ago
        From my experience, it is usually the non millionaires that are moving out of the expensive areas.
  • Solvitieg 4y ago
    salaries for people in smaller cities will increase
    • tjr225 4y ago
      So will housing costs. The problems facing SF, Seattle, LA will spread to smaller towns. SF, Seattle, LA, will continue to be expensive because people spend $$$$$$ to live there for reasons other than tech jobs. Be careful what you wish for. I live in the Seattle metro, and would live nowhere else in the country, for what its worth. You already see this happening in rural communities outside of big cities. "Tech-bro" approved towns such as Asheville, Knoxville, Ann Arbor, Twin Cities, etc, etc are getting so expensive the locals can't move. Where I am from in Southwest Michigan has been facing a worsening housing crisis for years. Luckily for most of the country, the weather isn't as nice as it is on the west coast, so homelessness will probably not explode as much as it has here. On the other hand, you have to deal with shitty weather ;) I think the reality is that our housing costs and our fuel costs will catch up with Europe's. In this case it sucks because never built out the public transportation capabilities that could facilitate this being as "pleasant" as it is in Europe. So now if you want to visit the rest of your country you're going to have to pony up for fuel.
• a_bonobo 4y ago
  Really cool system. >If you move, your compensation won’t change. Starting in June, we’ll have single pay tiers by country for both salary and equity. I wonder how that will look like in practice, countries differ enormously in required pay for a decent living, especially within the US. Wouldn't states/regions for a few countries work better?
  • bigtones 4y ago
    What they are saying is if you move to a different country, your salary will absolutely change.
    • hotpotamus 4y ago
      This is the part of universal WFH I just don't get. If you can work from anywhere, then why does the value of your work change depending on what country you're in?
      • dymk 4y ago
        Immigration law is the moat you’re looking for
      • erik_seaberg 4y ago
        You don’t get 100% of the value you produce, unless you work alone with only your equipment. You get the cost of retaining you, which depends on how many other employers would make you a better offer.
• muglug 4y ago
  If this becomes the norm then it's the end of SF as a tech hub. A big move for a company paying the sorts of salaries it does.
  • ttul 4y ago
    Add to this the fact that SF has deteriorated a great deal as a city since the start of the pandemic. The loss of downtown office worker revenue has decimated local shops and restaurants. It will take time for things to adjust to the new reality that workers just aren’t going back to how things were.
  • wolverine876 4y ago
    > it's the end of SF as a tech hub People love to predict this, they seek it. Perhaps it feels like pushing against some establishment (when it's serving another establishment). It's trendy now, which affects people who follow trends, but trends change fast. Talented people want to be around other talented people; smart, intellectually curious people want to live where there are great restaurants, arts, beauty, sophisticated people, etc. I don't think that will change.
    • vineyardmike 4y ago
      I agree. But some people will totally leave, which will be great for those of us that like it here, since the prices should go down.
      • wolverine876 4y ago
        Be careful: Perception is reality, and becomes reality. It's self-fulfilling.
    • LesZedCB 4y ago
      oh yeah, i forgot you can't get any of those cultural artifacts in any other city
    • junofan 4y ago
      It’s gotten pretty ridiculous in some neighborhoods. I don’t feel like a trend follower by leaving, and I don’t think random internet chatter influenced my decision.
• jitl 4y ago
  > You can move anywhere in the country you work in and your compensation won’t change. Starting in June, we’ll have single pay tiers by country for both salary and equity. If your pay was set using a lower location-based pay tier, you’ll receive an increase in June. I wonder how this will change things for companies like Figma, which allow full remote, but pay remote workers less.
  • ttul 4y ago
    Eventually - and it might take a recession - the downside of “work from anywhere” will be that companies can “hire from anywhere”. That means the Bay Area salary you previously enjoyed may be knocked down through greater wage competition.
    • aaomidi 4y ago
      And then another company will pop up and pay more. The thing is, we're used to the high pay now. Cut that and you're gonna cut efficiency. It's going to be hard to justify it. Create bad will with your money makers good luck getting anywhere realistically.
      • ttul 4y ago
        As an engineer I do hope that the global compensation level for good talent rises with all of this remote working. It seems to be already happening. Even in humble Vancouver, I hear of mobile developers being offered $320K. That was absolutely unheard of in 2019.
      • majormajor 4y ago
        It happened before, in living memory, it's hardly impossible. It gets easy to justify by employers when enough people lost their job that every job opening is flooded with candidates. There are basically two schools of thought: the "software is eating the world" one says that requirements will continue to be more and more specialized, for every advance in tooling there will be advances in complexity we can tackle, and the size of the overall dev market will continue to grow in a way that makes it less likely to be as affected by another single thing like the dot-com bubble. The other is that today's salaries are driven in large part by "fake money" (e.g. VC investment or internal speculative spending more than by revenue from paying customers) and that there will be a nasty correction when that stream dries up. I don't know which is right.
• gringoDan 4y ago
  I've been working like this for the past year and a half. I'll never go back to a "normal" office environment. Winners in this new paradigm: Owners of real estate in lifestyle towns like Boise, Boulder, etc. I also think borders between the US and Latin America (same/similar time zones) will become a lot more fluid. Why not work in Mexico City or Buenos Aires during the winters, for a fraction of the cost of living in the US?
  • bradlys 4y ago
    Friends, family, kids, not having all your stuff, cultural and language barriers, etc… It’s pretty obvious why this doesn’t work for a large portion of people. I am glad for the child free and those who have little need for stuff - but it’s just not… realistic for the rest of us (who are the overwhelming majority of the population). It’s good for that niche 22-28 crowd.
    • deleted 4y ago
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    • tdfx 4y ago
      It's actually pretty economical to have a second home in Latin America, with copies of all your creature comforts there. Kids get multicultural friends, new language, and much wider perspective on the world.
      • jraby3 4y ago
        What about school? It’s nice for summer break but it’s really hard to take kids out of school or to switch schools mid year.
        • tdfx 4y ago
          When the kids are younger, they don't really need to stick with a specific curriculum throughout the year. As they get older, I imagine the need to dictate your schedule around school increases. And if they're at a boarding school, that really frees up your planning.
• refurb 4y ago
  AirBnB has to do this just to recruit employees since there are plenty of other companies with the same or better comp (and equity not on the downhill).
  • ardit33 4y ago
    Airnbnb is not in the downhill. Why the hate? They had a very tough 2020, but after that it is all been looking better and better for them.
    • refurb 4y ago
      City after city is either severely restricting or eliminating AirBnB entirely. It's golden days are behind it. It's trying new approaches, but nothing unique there. Why work for AirBnB? You could work for another big tech company that actually has room to grow and produce some solid equity returns.
      • jitl 4y ago
        I’m happy with my Airbnb equity returns :^)
• chrischen 4y ago
  Have laws caught up for this new way to work yet? Last ai checked there are non-insignificant legal and tax issues for small businesses to have employees in other states.
  • gbear605 4y ago
    Judging by my employer, small businesses are able to have their payroll companies take care of all that hassle without much cost, so it’s not really a problem.
    • pc86 4y ago
      It depends on scale. I moved during my last job, post-COVID, and the HR department has to make sure the state I was moving to was approved. If not, I was going to have to switch to contracting (fewer hours, fewer employer/employee type rules, more rigidly defined tasks, etc.) because the cost of setting up payroll and taxation in another state was too onerous for just one person, even at the higher levels of the development staff.
      • aaomidi 4y ago
        Your company could've solved this with using a solution from ADP, gusto, rippling, and the shit ton of other companies to do this.
        • pc86 4y ago
          They used ADP for payroll. I have to believe if it was as simple as checking a box they would have just done it.
      • tdfx 4y ago
        That's just HR being lazy. The process for handling it is an afternoon of filling out some state forms and handing them off to the payroll company.
        • deleted 4y ago
• bradlys 4y ago
  Sounds nice in some ways. The stickler here is the focus on working in PST still. You’re not gonna get to travel to the EU and work async it sounds like. Which - while making sense - isn’t going to make a good portion of people who want this particularly happy. After all - remote but stuck in one time zone for working hours isn’t really a huge win. It’s dangling a carrot. In other news - sounds like comp is going down at Airbnb. Not a surprise.
  • ezfe 4y ago
    Some people don't care about the local timezone, even without a need to stay up odd hours. And for western Europe, you don't even need to work ridiculous hours. If my current core hours (9am - 3pm) were in PST and I worked in Paris, I could finish my workday at 11pm in Paris.
  • sircastor 4y ago
    I used to work for a company in the UK and live in the west coast. It’s mildly challenging but my experience was if you were competent to plan out your day’s work you’d be fine. If you ran into a show-stopper, capture it and being it up in your morning standup. They were all still in the office for at least a couple of hours when we got in.
  • pc86 4y ago
    Working remotely and working asynchronously are two very different things. COVID didn't necessitate asynchronous work by any stretch, so I think it will take some time for even the tech industry to move toward that. If for no other reason because it required much better communication skills than probably 80% of people have. A lot of developers, regardless of skill level, would not do very well in a truly asynchronous environment.
  • spaetzleesser 4y ago
    "After all - remote but stuck in one time zone for working hours isn’t really a huge win. It’s dangling a carrot." that's a pretty realistic approach in my opinion. My company has people in India and Europe and it sucks royally to set up meetings with them. Either they have to work at night or the US people have to. If I had to decide, I would mandate at least a 4 hour overlap in working times.
• da39a3ee 4y ago
  For companies like this that profess to care about their employees (and I believe them), what’s the justification for paying less in e.g. London than USA given London is just as expensive? Will progressive companies start adjusting pay according to cost of living rather than the local labor market?
  • pc86 4y ago
    > what’s the justification for paying less in e.g. London than USA You mention it in the next sentence - the local labor market. UK developers earn a fraction of what US developers do. We can debate the root causes but it seems irrelevant why it's true, only whether or not it is true. I'm not sure why cost of living should factor into comp at all. I can have a much higher COL than you, but if you bring more value to the company, and you can get better offers than I can, you should make more than me.
    • da39a3ee 4y ago
      Of course, I'm talking about comparing equally skilled and experienced employees. Can you rephrase your answer without conflating employee aptitude and CoL/local Labor market?
      • pc86 4y ago
        They're linked, intrinsically. If the someone's "market" (whether that's local, or global, or front-end, or full stack, or whatever) prices then at $80k/yr a business is going to try to pay them that much or less. Whether you want to admit it or not, locality plays a role in that.
        • da39a3ee 4y ago
          I'm still not sure I'm understanding you. What I'm asking about is the question of compensation conditional on experience and skill being identical. So by definition, I'm taking experience/skill differences out of the picture. So we have Alice: backend engineer in London, able to get $120K from UK companies Alicia: backend engineer in NYC, able to get $250K from US companies with identical skill/experience. And we say for the sake of argument that cost of living is identical in London and NYC. Now suppose Alicia's company wants to hire Alice. Certainly, I agree that it makes perfect sense in a free labor market for the US company to try to get Alice for $120K. But the company I work for (a well-known US tech company) makes many claims about how "fair" its compensation program is. So what I'm inviting you to discuss is whether or not that company would have a hard time making an argument that adjusting according to the local labor market is actually "fair". Essentially, Alice is being penalized for happening to be in a locality where her skills are valued less. But that is out of her control. Would it not be "fairer" for a company to adjust compensation as follows: 1. Firstly, according to skill / experience And then, either 2a. That's it, end of story: skill / experience only. or 2b. By local cost of living, within equivalent skill levels.
• nabaraz 4y ago
  How does tax laws work in this case? When I was working from Mexico, I had to come back every six months to avoid local income tax.
  • aaomidi 4y ago
    You pay the taxes from where you work.
• jimkleiber 4y ago
  > While you’ll be responsible for getting proper work authorization, we’re actively partnering with local governments to make it easier for more people to travel and work around the world. Today, 20+ countries offer remote work visas, and more are in the works. While working from different locations isn’t possible for everyone, I hope everyone can benefit from this flexibility when the time is right. I think currently this is a big caveat. Getting a work permit in other countries is not that easy, even for Americans or other countries with more prestigious passports. Maybe with AirBnB clout it is easier than without but I'd say it's still quite an issue. That being said, I'm really excited for what the future could provide with AirBnB focusing on this. Maybe it will be easier not just for Americans and the like to work in other countries but I really hope it will be easier for others from places such as Africa and Latin America to work in Europe and the US as well.
  • digianarchist 4y ago
    Caveat emptor indeed. Most folks will end up working on tourist visas which is explicitly not allowed around most of the world. I work at a remote first company and HR have given a nod and a wink to this, but with the requirement that you maintain a permanent address and pay taxes in a country where they have an office.
    • jimkleiber 4y ago
      Haha yes, exactly. However, AirBnB figured out how to change culture (and law?) to rent our homes out to strangers, maybe they'll lead the way here as well.
    • basisword 4y ago
      >> Most folks will end up working on tourist visas which is explicitly not allowed around most of the world. Are you sure this is the case? You’re not allowed to get hired locally but I believe you can work online for a company based in your country of residence provided you don’t stay long enough to become a resident of the new country (which you can’t on a tourist visa). I visited Canada for 6 months on a tourist visa. I had a full immigration interview at the airport when I arrived and they were perfectly happy with me working freelance/online for those 6 months. They were just clear I couldn’t become an employee of a Canadian company.
• yao420 4y ago
  Glad they are doing this. I got a great offer from Airbnb last year but I turned it down because they required an SF presence.
• outcoldman 4y ago
  I know some people are very excited about that, and some think that is going to be a new norm. I have not worked for the corps for at least 4-5 years, but before that I always assumed there are only small amount of people who can really work for company remotely. I definitely saw people calling that they are going to work from home, but saw very little work to be done that day. Which probably means that people used that as excuse, as they had some business to do outside work, and they did not want to take PTO. I have very little believe that a majority of people can work from home, especially when travel. You are at new place, you going to work like 4-6 hours instead of 8-9 hours. So I do understand why airbnb is telling their employees to do so, but curious how long it is going to last, and curious how real it is going to be (considering that it could be up to management approval as well). But I doubt that other companies will follow that.
  • xtracto 4y ago
    >You are at new place, you going to work like 4-6 hours instead of 8-9 hours. I remember some studies mentioning that the real productive time in a daily 8 hr shiFt was 4-6 hours. If that's so, then it's completely doable. Hopefully someone has a fresh link to one of those studies.
    • outcoldman 4y ago
      Just to clarify the hours of productivity. I meant the person will allocate only 4-6 hours instead of 8-9 hours, and most of the time will be on FB, reading news, and spending time in chats. And whatever is left going to use for some work :)
    • throwanem 4y ago
      Just a heads up, I think you may have typoed "shift"...
      • xtracto 4y ago
        Haha thanks, gives a whole different meaning.
• jcims 4y ago
  When does the definition of talent extend beyond developers and system architects and product delivery? Airbnb’s support organization, particularly with respect to guest advocacy, is abhorrent. I was just recently in a situation where a host rejected the rental price after booking, and convinced the support team that i agreed to the adjusted price, which was then charged against my card. (To be fair there was some messaging back-and-forth between myself and the host prior to the booking that gave credence to this, but nothing official.) When i rejected the new price the host agreed to cancel, then again convinced airbnb to execute a guest cancellation, forfeiting all but $613 of a now $4400 booking. It took me roughly a week with those funds tied up before i found someone in their support team (O.G. Lou G, i love you man) to actually listen to me and reverse everything. This on the heels of renting a condo with hammer drills running upstairs 8 hours a day for the last three days of my trip and zero consideration or recompense from the host or airbnb. https://youtu.be/3raZyaHhiyU https://youtu.be/3raZyaHhiyU (TV max volume from six feet away for relative comparison)
  • rdtwo 4y ago
    I think more people need to be aware of how much they suck as a company
    • seattle_spring 4y ago
      I've had nothing but excellent experiences, going on 70+ distinct trips now. Many of them wouldn't even have been possible without Airbnb. Sorry it hasn't worked out so well for you
      • jcims 4y ago
        I keep going back, even with the bs that I’ve experienced, because the good outcones are so much better than what the traditional hospitality industry provides it’s worth the risk (to me). That said i bring my own linens and a thermal camera to look for electronic shenanigans. I just think it’s important to recognize that the hosts are completely carrying the company’s brand.
    • 4y ago
• anm89 4y ago
  Recently booked a 3 month stay in an airbnb in Denver. 5000$ a month which was a big sacrifice but I wanted to stay somewhere where I would be comfortable . I get to the place and it's nothing like the pictures. I tried really hard to evaluate this possibility but still couldn't catch it, they had done some really creative photography. The appliances are disgusting, the place smells like cigarettes and some kind of industrial cleaner that was used to try to cover up the cigarettes. So I ask the owner If i can leave, with the offer that I won't leave any type of review just so he won't be scared of that outcome. He rejects my offer and basically laughs at me for falling for his listing. After all this airbnb then takes down my review because "I had tried to manipulate the owner by offering not to leave a review if he let me leave" Now I understand why places like this have good reviews. It's unbelievably easy to get negative reviews taken down.
  • imperialdrive 4y ago
    Pretty sure the unspoken rule for years was to book the minimum then make contact for the rest at a good discount. Airbnb knows this which is why they charge such a high fee and don't give rats butt about most clients.
• carlivar 4y ago
  I like that he specifically mentioned open floor plans. This is the number one reason why I don't want to return to the office. I kinda do want to go back. But I need my privacy and some quiet. I can't do the open floor plan ever again.
  • abledon 4y ago
    you don't like doing PDD? Panopticon-driven-development?
    • throwanem 4y ago
      They say imitation is the sincerest form of flattery. If so, you should be flattered indeed, because I'm stealing the hell out of this.
    • Aeolun 4y ago
      Oh yes, the boss can sit in the center and see everyone, and everyone can see the boss, but nobody can see each other. This is perfect.
  • cube00 4y ago
    It always annoyed me that they couldn't even be honest and say it was save rent, they had to make it seem like open floor plan was a positive thing because it "increases collaboration" It's not enough you want to be cheap but you want to make it seem like you're doing it for our benefit.
    • vmception 4y ago
      I think a lot of founders and their friends are using the office as a replacement for a healthier separate social circle and social life that they lack (a lot of people lack that, and they do too), so for them they're really just hanging out and like the potential for “increased collaboration” for that reason
      • hindsightbias 4y ago
• teleforce 4y ago
  This is a newly released book, Effective Remote Work: For Yourself, Your Team, and Your Company by James Stanier, now with 50% discount: https://www.pragprog.com/titles/jsrw/effective-remote-work/ https://www.pragprog.com/titles/jsrw/effective-remote-work/
• deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
• dang 4y ago
  Related ongoing thread: Airbnb employees can live and work anywhere - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31199833 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31199833
• somethoughts 4y ago
  I'm kinda of curious how this works if you are remote: "Most of you should expect to gather in person every quarter for about a week at a time. Some roles, especially senior roles, will be expected to gather more often. We’ll do our best to define windows when most large team off-sites will occur and give you plenty of notice so you can make it work with personal and family plans." Is this like just plan to be in the SF office during normal 9-5 work hours for a week every 13 weeks or is this like plan on a week long 24-7 corporate retreat away from your family every 13 weeks. If its the former, then that seems sort of like hybrid work just 1 week per 13 week versus 2-3 day per 5 day where you should probably stick to within 1-2 hour commute of your local AirBNB office. If its the latter then that seems like it might be a non-starter for people with families.
  • mdoms 4y ago
    > If its the latter then that seems like it might be a non-starter for people with families. If you can't make the time to spend a few days a quarter with your workmates in exchange for the most generous and fair remote working package then perhaps you're not a good fit for Airbnb. Which is totally fair. But they're not exactly taking the piss here. For many (many) people a week long retreat is a perk not a burden.
    • somethoughts 4y ago
      Haha - I hear you - its a treat if you are single or a DINK (dual income no kids) and need some solo social time. Especially if Monday and Friday are travel days. But if you have a family you actually like/love - then a full week away really is a non-starter. Especially if its Sunday night and Saturday morning travel. School plays and parent teacher conferences don't get planned based on the AirBNB week long retreat schedule. And if you are in a dual income family with the stereotypical two kids - if both of you guys are in similar work situations - then on your "on" week - you're gonna be the one doing 2 school pickups and all after school driving.
      • mdoms 4y ago
        I definitely feel you on the Sun/Sat travel and I'd push back against that.
• kylehotchkiss 4y ago
  > Everyone will still need a permanent address for tax and payroll purposes I spent a lot of time outside US while waiting for my wife's visa to process and quickly wrote some advice on maintaining US domicile & "permanent address" while abroad: https://www.kylehotchkiss.com/blog/domicile https://www.kylehotchkiss.com/blog/domicile Sorry about the misspellings and slightly ugly personal site but I hope that this helps somebody who may be considering working or staying from abroad for a bit!
  • hnburnsy 4y ago
    Like full time RV'ers you could pick a domicile state and a mail forwarding service in that state. Texas, Nevada, Florida, and South Dakota are popular for tax, insurance, and legal reasons.
• eweise 4y ago
  "wo decades ago, Silicon Valley startups popularized the idea of open floor plans and on-site perks, which were soon adopted by companies all around the world. Similarly, today’s startups have embraced remote work and flexibility" You bosses adopted open floor plan to save money, no matter how miserable it made your employees. Now you're "embracing" remote work only because you can't hire anyone to work in your miserable offices.
• pkdpic 4y ago
  Ive worked for a coding bootcamp since before covid. We used to be in person only and Ive gotten to see the ups and downs of the full-remote transition for at this point hundreds of jr devs entering the field. Long story short everything I thought would get negative blowback or go up in flames didnt. I keep waiting for the other shoe to drop and it never does. Our students work through around 1000 hours of computer science fundamentals remotely, build a portfolio of fullstack applications remotely, get hired at FAANG companies and startups remotely, make their employers happy remotely and get more of our graduates hired remotely. As someone who used to work in and believe in traditional academia I still can't believe there's no catch. But increasingly it's becoming clear that there's not. Except that the students can't hook up with eachother and there's no free bad coffee. Also society could still totally collapse at any moment I guess. ---------- PS I love the green futurism manifesto vibe of airbnbs statement, I wana work there now
  • paulcole 4y ago
    > I still can't believe there's no catch Do you believe that remote work is a net gain for society but is a net negative for many individuals?
    • pkdpic 4y ago
      definitely, my best friend cant stand it and another engineer mentor friend has suffered really legitimately from it, but honestly its a good reminder, and a privilege check on being in a relationship and living in a walkable mixed-zoning area
    • zdragnar 4y ago
      I think this depends largely on whether you live alone. I would never go back to an office, even part time. One of my best friends lives by himself and struggled hard during the covid-induced requirement to work from home. Much like schools double as a day care for children, work often doubles as a social club for adults.
      • pkdpic 4y ago
• rmk 4y ago
  Work from anywhere is truly advantageous for people without families, or people who have much older children (maybe). Also, if collaboration is centered around Pacific Time, then it effectively rules out many of the 170 countries. Add in 4 1-week onsites per year, and the logistical challenges become mind-boggling, never mind the other more subtle aspects. How will this work in practice?
• baskethead 4y ago
  I work at a fully remote company. To be honest, I don't like it very much. I like that I don't have to commute, but I pay for it in lost productivity waiting to hear back from my coworkers when I have questions. What would normally be a 5 mins conversation turns into pinging on chat, setting up a meeting, and then chatting at a further time. Collaboration is much harder and the rate of doing work is much slower. If companies are okay with this, then it's the "new normal" I suppose, but I can understand why Apple and Google want people face to face. If I knew I could go into work twice a week and meet with my team, I would enjoy that, but my team is global so it will never happen. It's definitely a weird experience.
  • kccqzy 4y ago
    Exactly. Just today in the office there was a coworker who was unfamiliar with a particular internal tool. He asked me, I walked to his desk, and pointed out the couple of buttons he needed to click in that internal tool. The whole exchange finished in one minute. After that minute I went back to coding. I stayed in my flow. But if this request for help arrived via group chat, I wouldn't have bothered to help. It was simply too much effort to either do screen sharing, or open the internal tool on my computer, replicate the state of that UI, and then describe the buttons the coworker needed. The one-minute interruption would be a ten-minute interruption. I wouldn't stay in my flow.
    • talldan 4y ago
      Sounds like something that could be solved by better documentation. I work for a fully remote company, and better documentation is definitely something I've noticed here compared to on-site roles.
      • TheGigaChad 4y ago
      • digianarchist 4y ago
        Better docs and better tools. I jump on calls with little notice all the time. Zoom has a personal link you can use.
• dinvlad 4y ago
  For another interesting take on this: https://levels.io/async/ https://levels.io/async/
• ggm 4y ago
  Somewhere in between a pay grade based on scarcity, and S.F. norms, and a pay grade based on Ross Perot's IBM model of "feed 'em peanuts and sack at will" is a happy medium. I don't personally think that US pay for work done in Bali as a non-dom is sustainable, but paying Indonesian rate for work towards US profit is just as unviable. Whats the happy medium?
  • wfme 4y ago
    Why is it any less sustainable than paying the same person living in the US?
    • ggm 4y ago
      Because there typically is a cost/price function in this. If the cost of living isn't as high, then the company can sell more by reducing the price. To reduce the price they have to reduce the cost inputs. The risk for them, is somebody else working out the same brain awesome can be found cheaper, and removing the market under their feet. I work in IT, and I know it would suck to be told "you're worth less because you pay less rent" but this actually is normal: The majors are already telling SF residents "take $10,000 to move to Austin but we pay you less" And the majors are already saying "stay in India and we'll hire you and pay you less" -So it is not like there isn't already real world downward pressure on pay. (the context here is that I am paid way above local average for Australia and way below FAANG in the US, working in a not for profit) I strongly believe in unions. Even with a union, pay isn't going to be uniform across a nation, or between nations to do the same role. Musk is making Tesla in the US, Germany and China. I ask, non-rhetorically, which country do you think will wind up in the long term making more of the cars, and why? And, also non-rhetorically, why do you think "knowledge work" (which is what software is) is any different?
• ultimoo 4y ago
  >Most companies don’t do this because of the mountain of complexities with taxes, payroll, and time zone availability, but I hope we can open-source a solution so other companies can offer this flexibility as well. I think this is a genius growth play for Airbnb. Make it easier for _other_ companies to operate in a similar way so that _their_ employees can travel and live in an... Airbnb! Next, they should lobby to get US and EU to make short-term "tourism + wfh" visas more accessible so that this becomes even more popular. I think everyone wins here.
  • lovemenot 4y ago
    >> I think this is a genius move for Airbnb. Make it easier for _other_ companies to operate in a similar way so that _their_ employees can travel and live in an... Airbnb! Yes. Like the story of Ford doubling the wages it paid to factory workers in 1920s. So that those workers could afford a car, and the whole economy eventually followed suit.
    • Kbelicius 4y ago
      That story isn't true. The reason why wages/bonuses were raised/introduced by Ford is because of turnover.
      • gowld 4y ago
        What's the difference?
      • lovemenot 4y ago
        I get that this story may be apocryphal, but if so it is surely widely disseminated by now. I even wondered about factuality as I wrote my comment, yet I knew of no evidence to the contrary. You didn't provide any substantial counterpoint. So what was the point you were making?
        • Kbelicius 4y ago
          >I get that this story may be apocryphal, but if so it is surely widely disseminated by now. I even wondered about factuality as I wrote my comment, yet I knew of no evidence to the contrary. You'd be hard pressed to provide a search pattern in any search engine that would provide a top 5 result that isn't about Ford wage raises in 1914 being about anything else than worker retention. > You didn't provide any substantial counterpoint. So what was the point you were making? Nor did you provide any substantial point. What is it with double standards today? My point was that you are spreading falsehoods.
• yalogin 4y ago
  Wow, Airbnb really knocked it out of the park. I really like the whole plan. I hope other companies follow.
• mdoms 4y ago
  It's hard to imagine a better handling of the situation. If I was in USA Airbnb would be at the top of my "to work" list. Bravo.
• hestefisk 4y ago
  If I could I would apply with Airbnb tomorrow. Please other corps, follow suit.
• vmception 4y ago
  > The best people live everywhere, not concentrated in one area. Meaning that the best people are nomadic because its such a common choice amongst the best people, and would be a common choice among people with a choice. This is the experience they have with recruiting, and the CEO then pretends its because of a diverse pool of people that happen to live in a variety of towns where they stay all the time. Just helping someone read between the lines!
  • teirce 4y ago
    Okay, sure. Since we're sharing takes, here is how I read that statement: Smart people exist outside of the SFBA. (Or Seattle. Or NYC. Or London. Or ...) As someone who is intimately familiar with geographic discrimination, this was nice to read. I grew up and went to school in the US bible belt. When sending out resumes, the only companies I ever heard back from (even a 'no thanks'!) were local, or cosmic luck (hired an adjacent person and reached out to me.)
    • vmception 4y ago
      My point is that its supposed to feel good but that verbatim reading isn't really whats happening. Over the past two years lots of people left the SFBA, Seattle, NYC etc. They didn't move to the US Bible Belt they went to islands, Miami, Austin, Southern California.... so to keep talent and get some of the other talent back, they released this statement. about nomads. It's not about people with feeble parents and health issues that get them stuck in the midwest, or those really there by even easier choice. Maybe it will never be about them. Its not charity, its a reaction to their own workforce.
      • teirce 4y ago
        Of course it is in the company's interest. That's why they are doing it. I used my life in the bible belt as an anecdotal example, but it can apply to many places. Disparaging a company's move just because - acktualllly it benefits them - will have you hating every business on the planet. My point here is they didn't _have_ to do this. Places like Google and Apple are all but telling remote workers to kick rocks. Others like Facebook say 'be remote but we are doing CoLA.' ABNB's policy here is the most fair (and generous) out of the ones I've seen. If that attracts workers, good for them.
• devy 4y ago
  > 2. You can move anywhere in the country you work in and your compensation won’t change > ... Starting in June, we’ll have single pay tiers by country for both salary and equity. If your pay was set using a lower location-based pay tier, you’ll receive an increase in June. I wonder if an Airbnb employee's pay was set using a higher location-based pay tier, would that be down adjusted, conversely? A single pay tier in U.S. means there are wide pay gaps between San Francisco, California vs. Billings, Montana for the same skill set/job role to be reconciled, correct? It only makes sense to me that they aren't adjusting everyone to the Silicon Valley pay rate in June. Can someone share lights on how that single pay tier for a country would work?
• pharmakom 4y ago
  Phenomenal. Good job Airbnb. Aside from being a friendly policy to staff, I think this shows just how tight the labour market is right now.
• devmor 4y ago
  I guess they had to let their employees live anywhere since people have bought up all the single family housing in large cities to be de-facto landlords through airbnb.
• purpleidea 4y ago
  > anywhere! ...in the same country. Sort of defeats the point for many.
• NKosmatos 4y ago
  Very good decision and hopefully more companies will follow the new way of working. It’s not a “one size fits all” situation, for some WFH (or from anywhere) is great and they’re more productive, for others being in the office with their colleagues works best. Companies should allow people to choose and see what works best (with proper management, training, support…). One other important aspect is the ability to work from any country/city which will greatly help certain locations to attract WFH people or tech-nomads. Speaking for my country, Greece, there are already some islands and municipalities advertising their offerings to attract new people. This is going to be a win-win for all and help with counterurbanization. Sure there are many technicalities still to be sorted out but this is the way to go, this is the way of the future.
• Stevvo 4y ago
  One thing is certain; employees are not going to be working out of AirBnbs, because they so rarely have a quality desk + chair!
• librish 4y ago
  This is super cool and I'm glad someone's trying it. The digital nomad lifestyle is really fun and worth trying for a lot of people, at least for a few years. I'm skeptical this will work out for Airbnb though. My personal experience is that people who self-select into this type of lifestyle are not going to be as productive. There's too much to do and see in a new city, people to meet, foods to try, parties to go to, coupled with much less oversight. A critical component for remote work productivity is having a routine that somewhat mimics the routine of going in to the office. That said, it can be really hard to detect low performers, and the market is really tight right now so this might be around for a while.
  • dazc 4y ago
    > A critical component for remote work productivity is having a routine that somewhat mimics the routine of going in to the office. This is what I found, ended up renting an office because there are far too many distractions and random annoyances. For example, a lot of vacation locations have building work going on constantly and, in many Mediterranean countries, leaving a barking dog out on your balcony all day and night is considered normal and neighbourly. Also finding a location with a decent internet connection, reliable electric & plumbing, and decent furniture seems to be expecting too much?
• Tepix 4y ago
  Digital nomads aren't new. Someone must have figured out what is the most lucrative place to have official residency - assuming you're not from the US - US citizens have to pay taxes in the US (and sometimes twice) as far as i know.
  • 8organicbits 4y ago
    The Foreign Earned Income Exclusion can reduce US tax burden for US citizens abroad. https://www.irs.gov/individuals/international-taxpayers/foreign-earned-income-exclusion https://www.irs.gov/individuals/international-taxpayers/fore...
• giorgioz 4y ago
  https://www.remote.com/ https://www.remote.com/ is a proxy company with subsidiaries in all countries allowing you to hire employees legally in any country. I discover it the other day, it's a game changer for remote international teams.
  • 4ad 4y ago
    Beware, I can't speak for this exact one, but in my (pretty significant) experience these companies take a 35-45% cut of your gross income.
    • spaniard89277 4y ago
      Their fee is some hundred dollars, and on top of that they need to pay local taxes.
      • 4ad 4y ago
        I will check it out, but to be honest, I am extremely skeptical. I have been using companies providing similar services for over a decade. Not only they have consistently all been very expensive (35%-45% cut)†, but they all required MASSIVE amounts of paperwork, both from the contracting company and from the "employee". Employee enrolment took at least a month, and this was when the employee was already a resident, and when we already had other employees in the same country. Otherwise it took much longer because specific contracts in the local language had to be written and approved. Employee resignation took months, and relocation also took months. This all sounds too good to be true. This is with US parent companies and EU employees. † The least I've seen was 20%, and it was a horror show so bad that it was worth it to switch to a 40% competitor.
        • spaniard89277 4y ago
          That sounds bad, but I have to tell you that I know a bunch of devs here in Spain working through this setup.
  • spaniard89277 4y ago
• drakonka 4y ago
  This makes me happy to read. It's not perfect (location-based pay), but it seems like a really great setup overall. Over the pandemic I have learned that I _love_ remote work and now work remotely full time. It's been a game changer in terms of my overall life satisfaction, happiness, and productivity. It doesn't work for everyone, but it does for me. I'm very glad there are more opportunities to work like this now.
• Dave3of5 4y ago
  This will get a lot of comments because it's AirBnB not because of the actual content.
• tatoalo 4y ago
  My employer (FAANG-like Fintech) settled on a really similar policy just a couple of days ago, really glad they did it. > Starting in September, you can live and work in over 170 countries for up to 90 days a year in each location. This looks particularly great, currently for my company is "just" 20 days, but this seems fantastic!
• hugg 4y ago
  Our company (500+ employees) "tried" this, meaning we announced it and then it turned out it was legal hell and it was silently abandoned
• noduerme 4y ago
  Sooo.. w/o getting into my history too deeply, my ex and I left the US in 2006 and worked freelance/remote. Wired did an article about us in 2008 living in a solar van when that was, like, unheard of. It seems like every few years a new batch of people want to try this approach, and it's always popular with the press to write about it. Sometimes it works out. I think it's a great way to live, and it teaches you a lot about yourself. We used to just find vacation rentals. One of the key tricks I used when AirBnb came out was figuring out who the owner was and contacting them directly with a cash offer for 3 months rent with ~25% (sometimes 50%) knocked off if I pay in USD up front. So I'd say most of the places I lived from 2009 on (about 20 places?) I found on AirBnb, thanks guys, and then paid cash to the owner. Only once or twice, for a couple days at most, have I ever actually used AirBnb to run a transaction for me. Not for nothing, I now live in a house I own in Portland with an AirBnb right next to me whose owners are off living in some other AirBnb out of the country, and I'm pissed as fuck that I'm living next to what's turned into a goddamn motel. But it's wonderful that the AirBnb staff now get the same in-system privileges that unionized airline employees have had for decades. It would be better if it wasn't literally gutting every city from Amsterdam to Bangkok in the process and turning them into hipster slums.
  • mdoms 4y ago
    > It would be better if it wasn't literally gutting every city from Amsterdam to Bangkok in the process and turning them into hipster slums. Do you not recognise that you were the exact kind of person ruining cities the world over?
    • noduerme 4y ago
      No, I don't think that's fair at all, since I didn't live in central cities for one thing (more often villages and small towns, or suburbs where I would be the only foreigner), but also because like I said above, the small number of long-term nomads who move to a place to live and work is absolutely dwarfed by the vast number of tourists who are now using up to 50% of apartments in places like Lisbon as if they were hotel rooms. I think there are sustainable forms of travel that don't place undue stress on local housing markets and economies. Your assumption is incorrect.
• jdrc 4y ago
  The gist here should be that there needs to be worldwide coordination for taxation base of workers. Remote work visas are a start but there needs to be a clear global standard. Maybe airbnb could push for this
• zengineer 4y ago
  I hope they add a "remote working approved" tag and filter, just like the "superhost". I have been working remotely since almost a year now in several European countries and to filter out AirBnBs, which offer a decent desk and have stable internet takes hours. The "workstation" filter can not be trusted and neither the "has Wifi", which doesn't say anything about the quality. An internet speed test should be required to be done by the host. This way I can avoid having to ask about the internet every time before booking - which takes sometimes half a day for getting a response.
  • Nextgrid 4y ago
    The problem is that in a lot of Western Europe, an actually-good Internet connection is a very rare commodity - DSL is still a thing in 2022.
    • hocuspocus 4y ago
      There are a few countries where broadband is unjustifiably bad (Germany and Belgium come to mind) but I wouldn't generalize to the entire Western Europe. For instance many rural departments of France have extensive FTTH coverage. Also DSL isn't necessarily so bad, G.fast allows for speeds that are close to what you can do with modern Docsis deployments.
  • gongdzhauh 4y ago
    I don't think I'd ever book a place that didn't explicitly list Internet speed if I were to work there and I hate that AirBnB doesn't easily provide this information. The last time I booked a place like that they claimed to have "professional grade" Internet which ended up being a 15mbps down/ 4mbps up connection. Surprisingly (to me at least) that was enough for most video calls.
• Caitin_Chen 4y ago
• Traster 4y ago
  >Most companies don’t do this because of the mountain of complexities with taxes, payroll, and time zone availability, but I hope we can open-source a solution so other companies can offer this flexibility as well. I had a little chortle at this. This is going to be like building an application that handles timezones for you, but instead of getting timezones wrong, you're committing tax evasion. Let's say you move to the UK to work for 50 days. Whether you're resident in the UK and therefore have to pay tax will involve myriad complexities including whether your partner is resident in the UK. It's just going to be such a faff, and it depends far more on the individuals circumstances than the company.
  • digianarchist 4y ago
    This is why most tourist visas allow exactly 6 months per entry and tax residency starts at 183/184 days.
• TheGigaChad 4y ago
• bprasanna 4y ago
  Companies rely on memory of people to overcome the bad PR they had. It's been just 3 weeks this post https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30926834 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30926834 made headlines in HN. Now we will see Airbnb as a company making meaningful change, invalidating the claims from ex-employee's post.
• H1Supreme 4y ago
  > Most of you should expect to gather in person every quarter for about a week at a time. No thanks. Couple this with the two or three trips I take per year with my girlfriend, I'm going to be getting on an airplane every other month at a minimum. That is way too much travel for me.
  • smeej 4y ago
    I was thinking this too. It would be one thing if the expectation were that you would come into the office you previously worked out of, because that would give you the option not to have to travel as long as you didn't move away, but suddenly adding a travel requirement for those people would suck. It does make more sense to me if that stays an option, and it's only the people who do move away who would have to travel. That way people could choose the perk of living elsewhere, knowing they would have the downside of traveling quarterly. But for people who were hired on to an office job with no travel requirement shouldn't suddenly have a travel requirement so that their coworkers who move away have it more convenient. It might even be enough of a change in working conditions for someone to quit and be eligible to draw unemployment benefits. (I used to adjudicate claims, and a significant change in working conditions is one of the ways you might be eligible for benefits even if you quit instead of being laid off.)
• actuator 4y ago
  Good that the compensation is not changing in the country, but why not bring compensation parity with other countries as well. If they are going towards compensation determined by role not market location, they should do this.
• deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
• adg001 4y ago
  """ If we limited our talent pool to a commuting radius around our offices, we would be at a significant disadvantage. The best people live everywhere, not concentrated in one area. And by recruiting from a diverse set of communities, we will become a more diverse company. """
• smeej 4y ago
  Coordinating in Pacific Standard Time is really weird. Right now, the Pacific Time zone is on Daylight time, so they'd need to calculate a one-hour offset for everything, even in the main office. Coordinating on Pacific Time would be less weird. But, as I learned working at a company that's truly international, coordinating on UTC is better. Each employee only has to know the offset between their own time and UTC. They know when any local Daylight Saving laws shift them relative to UTC, and it's extremely easy to look it up if they forget. It's also extremely easy to look up the UTC offset anywhere you may travel. Picking Pacific Time, and specifically Pacific Standard Time, is a weird choice.
• truth_seeker 4y ago
  Pretty cool. More companies should get inspired by this, especially the big corporate boys.
• belter 4y ago
  Everybody seems to be praising Airbnb but a couple of things need to be stated about doing remote work. Just because some rules are difficult to enforce or monitor, the spread of these practices will invite increased scrutiny by local authorities. 1) None of the usual 90 days Visas allow you to perform working activities. Neither when issued in the US or in European countries. Even when you are still a resident and employed in your country of residence. See for example the allowed activities for a B-1 or a B-2 Visa. https://travel.state.gov/content/travel/en/us-visas/tourism-visit/visitor.html https://travel.state.gov/content/travel/en/us-visas/tourism-... 2) You also can't do it on a Schengen Visa for Tourism or Business. Business Schengen Visa – Traveling to Europe for Business Purposes: https://www.schengenvisainfo.com/business-schengen-visa/ https://www.schengenvisainfo.com/business-schengen-visa/ 3) Some professions like Airline crews, Military personal, Athletes and Musicians have specific provisions on the law that allow for their remote work. 4) For Europe the only way this might work could be with the relatively new Digital Nomad Visa: https://www.etiasvisa.com/etias-news/digital-nomad-visas-eu-countries https://www.etiasvisa.com/etias-news/digital-nomad-visas-eu-... 5) Each case will be different, subject to a long and complex process. The company announcement mentions: "Starting in September, you can live and work in over 170 countries for up to 90 days a year in each location." On a first analysis, seems Airbnb applying again the grow patterns they used before: Flout the rules, push ambiguous legal scenarios, then pay fines or ask for forgiveness before asking for permission.
  • jlmorton 4y ago
    > None of the usual 90 days Visas allow you to perform working activities. They don't allow you to perform work within the jurisdiction. But no one cares if you're working remotely, and I'm not aware of any tourism visas that preclude it. Digital nomad visas are not about legalizing an otherwise-illegal arrangement, they are intended to expand and promote it with longer visa terms that traditional tourism visas allow. It's about increasing the length of the visa, not legalizing it. But neither a tourism visa, or a digital nomad visa allow you to work in the jurisdiction.
    • dragonwriter 4y ago
      > They don't allow you to perform work within the jurisdiction. But no one cares if you're working remotely, and I'm not aware of any tourism visas that preclude it. Working in the jurisdiction is working in the jurisdiction no matter where the person paying you or your usual place of work (if such thing even exists) is. If you are in the jurisdiction, doing labor for pay (regardless of where the pay comes from), you are working in the jurisdiction.
• testbjjl 4y ago
  The company that scraped Craigslist and made “every” home in my favorite local places a speculative opportunity for out of state investors (and funds), moving the workforce into their inventory to create a competitive hiring advantage against other tech companies by letting me work at my (or any) kitchen table. Sounds like this won’t be sustainable. Should it become an acquisition target and the remote workforce is an impediment to their valuation, it will cost very little to send email demanding a return to the office. The only way to pull off the whole, employee independence thing is to not concentrate resources in the hands of so few. You can work from your home, sure, but the CEO and board, for their risk receives outsized compensation and offers little control. It works because we a technologist breathing entrepreneurial air feel, one day I too will have millions in reserve so I won’t begrudge the few who are now. I think a better response it to coordinate and not show up in the office or on zoom until…(I don’t know I am a contractor and have been working from home the past 12 years and really don’t have workplace complaints)
• all_usernames 4y ago
  > Most of you should expect to gather in person every quarter for about a week at a time. Yikes. That's a lot of travel.
• WYepQ4dNnG 4y ago
  Will Apple finally make up their mind? Most of the big tech are getting more and more work remote friendly. If they want to retain talents ... they must align with them. Otherwise they will continue to bleed engineers to FB, Google, etc ...
• distrohopper 4y ago
  isn't airbnb gigawoke? they recently banned the spouse (!) of some right-wing personality because they feared the banned guy might use his spouses name to book a room. Guilt by association. Of course no crazy leftist ever has been banned from airbnb. I am no longer using airbnb since I'm not woke.
• xtat 4y ago
  Quite surprised to see an SV company getting it THIS right. Bravo.
• SergeAx 4y ago
  > You can move anywhere in the country you work in and your compensation won’t change I beleive this means that if you move to another country - your compensation will change, right?
• notsag-hn 4y ago
  > Before you move, make sure to talk to your manager about performance and time zone expectations, as well as your availability for team gatherings. Work from anywhere but ask your manager from where you can work. Also I want you here each three months for a one-week gathering, and if you're senior I want you to gather even more often. "The most flexible policy in the world" people are calling it LOL It's great a company like Airbnb does this, but come on!