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An Account of the Shanghai Lockdown

• grecy 5y ago
  The rest of the world seems to have gone all-in with vaccines and are now moving away from lockdowns. Why are China sticking to the lockdown route?
  • philliphaydon 5y ago
    Because it has a zero covid policy. It is trying to project an image of itself as being this ideal society where covid isn’t running wild while america is out of control. The lockdown they are having is horrible tho. My coworker is based there and what I’ve heard from her is scary. She wants to move out of China when she can.
    • somewhereoutth 5y ago
      I mean, assuming they can contain it in Shanghai, then China really is an ideal society where Covid isn't running wild. We are yet to see the full burden of disease and disability from (repeated) Covid infections - it may be very serious.
      • smcl 5y ago
        This situation in Shanghai sounds pretty far from an ideal society, it sounds downright horrifying
        • somewhereoutth 5y ago
          Certainly it is awful in Shanghai right now, but it will be for a limited time period, and the benefits (of zero Covid) will out weigh this cost of this investment in public health.
          • smcl 5y ago
            I would say that in an ideal society you do not get suddenly locked down wherever you happen to be with no notice and no way to return to take care of pets or loved ones. Additionally said ideal society would not send me off to some covid hospital and kill my dog if I tested positive. I backed the mild but effective lockdowns we had and defended them when people called them dystopian or said they were worse than Covid. I cannot get behind these lockdowns in China, they are dystopian and I cannot fathom your sunny disposition towards them
          • nazgul17 5y ago
            It doesn't work that way. Covid will always find its way in China since it's not a locked down island, so the pain from a zero covid policy won't be short lived at all. And that's not considering hard to track pockets of the virus within the country.
          • School-Cotton 5y ago
            People like you truly can’t be reasoned with. Your obsession with Covid as being worse than any possible mitigation strategy is borderline religious.
      • petefromnorth 5y ago
        How is China in any way ideal. Here in the west, with very high voluntary vaccination rates, everything for the most part is back to normal. Even the vaccination verification process is gone. We dealt with covid in a reasonable, science-first way, which also allowed us to have the freedom to not get vaccinated, talk about what's happening, etc. Sounds much more ideal than the shitshow going on in Shanghai currently.
  • Fronzie 5y ago
    Their vaccine is not very effective against omicron, and they have far less hospital beds per capita than the west. So a 'flatten the curve' strategy will cause a lot more deads than it has in Europe and the USA.
    • totetsu 5y ago
      this is what i read also
    • threatripper 5y ago
      I don't think the number of deaths is the problem now but the speed at which they occur. If we assume about 0.2% death rate for China on average that would almost be 3 Million. Of those 1.5 Million would occur in 4 weeks (assuming speed is similar to Hong Kong and lower medical capacity). That's 50000 dead per day on average. Especially in the first half it's scary because the number just keep on rising to the sky with a peak of 100000 per day (or more? we don't know until they fall again). The difference in effort between keeping that kind of curve flat and ZeroCovid is small. I would even assume that ZeroCovid is easier than flattening the curve. While ZeroCovid is not an exit strategy in some areas it works better while waiting for an effective vaccine or some other exit strategy. So presumably that's what they do right now.
  • drumhead 5y ago
    Zero Covid policy, their own vaccine isnt very good and many people especially in high risk categories havent been vaccinated and not much natural immunity in the population. But primarily the Zero Covid policy.
  • phyalow 5y ago
    Because covid running rampant poses an unacceptable risk to social stability and therefore to the CCP’s grip on power. This is a function of propaganda they have been pumping out of the last 2 years wrt the effectiveness of the Chinese response & domestic vaccines. The policy response they have been touting as evidence for the superiority of the social contract they impose on citizens (lack of rights in favour of stability and growth) is now shown to be as susceptible as every other countries to the unescapable biological facts/reality of viral spread. This directly calls in to question the CCP’s credibility. Also Xi, needs to maintain the status quo until Q3 when he is up for re-election… It is a horrible situation for the Chinese people.
  • lvl102 5y ago
    Maybe they know something we don’t. Edit: there’s not a lot being talked about in terms of multiple infections over time. It’s not that the MRNA vaccines are effective it’s that the West pivoted to an entirely different public health policy.
    • ImaCake 5y ago
      Australia and New Zealand tried lockdowns against Delta. They didn't work until vaccination rates got high enough. Then omicron came and not even 90% vax rates were enough to stop the spread. So the vaccines without lockdowns is more a pragmatic move because lockdowns stopped working. Besides, the vaccines work, there just isn't the same need to have lockdowns anymore. AU and NZ lockdowns were less ugly than this Shanghai description though. I went outside to cycle and run literally every day of the NSW 2021 lockdown.
      • lvl102 5y ago
        I think we need to stop calling MRNA solutions vaccines because they are gene therapies. You need regular administration for them to be effective on a public health level which is not logistically feasible as we found out. They know this but they’re playing along as a matter of publicity and politics. We got incredibly lucky with Omicron.
        • ImaCake 5y ago
          The mRNA vaccines are absolutely vaccines and not gene therapies. The mRNA is turned into protein and it is that protein that your immune system is trained to attack. If we consider mRNA, or any vaccine, to be a gene therapy it would because the immune system has to modify its own DNA to generate antibodies. But we might then call the common cold a gene therapy or becoming allergic to something an accidental gend therapy. Obviously this is silly.
        • maxerickson 5y ago
          The mRNA vaccines literally expose your immune system to a foreign antigen, the longstanding definition of a vaccine. They use a nice trick to get your own body to manufacture the antigen, but it's not gene therapy, they don't go anywhere your genes, they give ribosomes some extra instructions. The boosters have been extremely effective at preventing severe infections, which is plenty useful for public health even if it isn't as good as preventing transmission entirely.
  • threatripper 5y ago
    Hong Kong had the highest death rate per capita globally in the last weeks when their containment policy failed. Leading to a mortality of over 0.1% in a short time. Hong Kong is a very rich area. Many other areas would fare much worse. The rest of the world is not "all-in" with vaccines. Vaccines are combined with waves of infection for the unvaccinated and vaccinated which lead to the death of 0.1% to 0.6% of the population in many countries. With each infection the immunity rises - leading to less severe infections in the future. The deaths are a high price to pay but many people think it's worth it to have a somewhat normal life again. As we know now, China was not very wise with their choice of vaccine and seemingly has no exit plan. Omicron is spreading very fast and due to a low prior immunity it would put an immense load on their medical system for months. Here's the link to an interactive graph showing the death rate per capita: https://ourworldindata.org/explorers/coronavirus-data-explorer?zoomToSelection=true&facet=none&pickerSort=desc&pickerMetric=total_vaccinations&Metric=Confirmed+deaths&Interval=7-day+rolling+average&Relative+to+Population=true&Color+by+test+positivity=false&country=USA~HKG~CHN~Europe https://ourworldindata.org/explorers/coronavirus-data-explor...
    • ArchD 5y ago
      61% of the deaths are of the elderly (> 70 yo) unvaccinated. 69% of the deaths are of the elderly (> 70 yo) with 0 or 1 vaccination doses. https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/volumes/71/wr/mm7115e1.htm https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/volumes/71/wr/mm7115e1.htm Table 2 The numbers you listed may seem scary at face value but viewed in the right context including compared to other mortality risks like flu and inhumane lockdown conditions where some people run out of food and other basic supplies or turn suicidal, the numbers do not support the conclusion that lockdown is the best way forward.
      • threatripper 5y ago
        I don't say that lockdown is the best way when viewed in the rear mirror. But right now it's just a logical continuation of the policy they enacted in the past.
    • geokon 5y ago
      What do you feel the "choice" with vaccines was? So even if they overlooked the politics/"optics", I don't think they could go to the Western pharmaceutical companies and just ask for 3 billion doses. With boosters it's looking like there isn't enough vaccine capacity for the world as it is. I don't think there was ever a real alternative other than a "zero covid strategy" What seems strange is that they haven't been able to quickly make an mRNA vaccine of their own. Supposedly South Africa has managed to pull it off, and I'd guess China has a much more advanced research/production capacity. Though it's also very possible it's happening and I just haven't heard of it :)
  • ATsch 5y ago
    The market has a lot less strong of a grip on society so it is less urgent to simply wish the virus away by reopening everything at a huge human cost.
    • rosndo 5y ago
      Keeping everything locked down has a huge human cost too. Quite possibly even bigger than “wishing the virus away”.
      • t0bia_s 5y ago
        Of course, there are many studies on this topic. - https://sites.krieger.jhu.edu/iae/files/2022/01/A-Literature-Review-and-Meta-Analysis-of-the-Effects-of-Lockdowns-on-COVID-19-Mortality.pdf https://sites.krieger.jhu.edu/iae/files/2022/01/A-Literature...
      • fivea 5y ago
        > Keeping everything locked down has a huge human cost too. That really depends on what's your personal definition of "keeping everything locked down". European countries like Spain and Italy showed that lockdowns work quite well in quickly halving infection rates with negligible externalities, but their lockdown focused on non-essential work and everyone was allowed to do basic provisioning things such as going to the supermarket. Also, if I recall correctly Spain also had in place a kind of stimulus program where people could apply for a guaranteed minimum income scheme. It boggles the mind how some people conflate a quarantine with solitary confinement under house arrest where people are left to starve to death.
        • School-Cotton 5y ago
          > negligible externalities. I hate this trend of downplaying how harsh the lockdowns were, even in Western countries. If you think they were worth it because you personally put a high importance on longevity, fine, that’s a legitimate policy position (though I disagree with it). But what happened in Spain and Italy was a catastrophic disruption to normal life by any reasonable standard.
  • roca 5y ago
    Their vaccination rate among elderly is quite low, their vaccine isn't as good as the main Western vaccines, and their hospital system in rural areas isn't very good. If/when COVID runs rampant they will have a lot of deaths. That's a particularly big problem given the upcoming Party congress where Xi will be crowned as dictator-for-life.
    • laurent92 5y ago
      When is the Party congress? Can it happen that, after the congress, they let the Covid run rampant, to get rid of the elderly and have better figures for a few years after that?
  • magpi3 5y ago
    This article makes a nice point: https://www.cnn.com/2022/04/08/opinions/china-xi-zero-covid-shanghai-huang/index.html https://www.cnn.com/2022/04/08/opinions/china-xi-zero-covid-... TLDR: Xi Jin Ping will soon be up for his third term, and he has staked his legacy at least in part on how well China has handled COVID. There will be no changes in China's COVID policy anytime soon.
  • legacynl 5y ago
    Because Chinese propaganda has always tried to shift blame away from the cccp. cccp propaganda continually pushed the message that corona infections were due to contaminated foreign goods (i.e. Not due to the cccp's bad healthcare policies). So to keep in line with propaganda instead of vaccinating the elderly and vulnerable they focused their efforts on vaccinating factory/Dock workers and other that handle a lot of goods. They've basically backed themselves into a corner with their propaganda, and to backtrack now would show weakness and basically admit that they care more about saving face than saving lives. As long as they can keep censoring angry citizens, and as long as they can keep the cccp in power, as far as they are concerned their covid-policy is working
    • _Microft 5y ago
      I think you mixed up your authoritarian abbreviations a bit there.
      • legacynl 5y ago
        oh haha, woops
  • School-Cotton 5y ago
    The failure of restrictions to meaningfully contain Covid that became obvious in Western countries ages ago is only now beginning to happen in China.
• kungito 5y ago
  My friend is trying to escape Shanghai to go back home but apparently it's very hard to get to the airport.
• drumhead 5y ago
  They dont seem to be able to organise a lockdown properly do they?
  • csee 5y ago
    A hard lockdown being needed at this late stage in the pandemic signals poor decision making more than anything. Why aren't their elderly widely vaccinated, and why are they still relying on their significantly worse domestically made vaccine?
    • 88840-8855 5y ago
      They are not vaccinated because they did not want. i am wondering about your question.
      • krisoft 5y ago
        > They are not vaccinated because they did not want. That is a perfect answer on the individual level. For example: Why is Bob’s uncle not vacinated? He didn’t want to. On a population level it is insuficient. When you are asking why only X% of a large population is vaccinated, you can look at larger forces at play. Is the availablr vacine working? Rationally is the risk of getting the vacine worth the benefit of it based on what we know? ( This is the bedrock of the question. ) Assuming it is worth it, are the people who have this information able to communicate this in a credible way to the population? If not what made the expert not credible? What could have been done differently for them to be more credible in the eye of the population? ( This is equally important! Having a good working vacine, which is not trusted because the system squandered away trust is tragic. ) Was the logistics of the vaccination well executed? ( Less people will get vaccinated if its not convenient for them. ) Are there any other factors which affected the vacination rate? These are all valid questions, and they are all enclosed in the original one: why only X% of this population is vacinated? > i am wondering about your question. That is a good thing, but it sounds like maybe you are insinuating something? If not sorry for the misunderstanding. If yes it would be better if you could spell out what you are wondering so we can discuss it.
      • 5y ago
• barry-cotter 5y ago
  It’s bloody awful. From start to now it’s been a clown show. It seems like no one learned anything in the past two years except that medical staff are much better at treating COVID. Thus zero deaths with more than 13,000 positive infected. A large majority are asymptomatic.
  • mupuff1234 5y ago
    Why did hong kong have such a high death rate?
    • phyalow 5y ago
      Because information is not censored to the same degree.
      • philliphaydon 5y ago
        Also in China if a person has a heart condition and covid and die. Then it’s recorded as a heart condition. Same reason why seasonal flu rates are like 50 in China compared to 20m in America.
      • deleted 5y ago
        [deleted]
    • barry-cotter 5y ago
      From what I've read they used the low quality Chinese vaccines and vaccination rates among over 60s were under 80%. if you're over 80 and you get COVID you're very likely to die if you're symptomatic.
      • makomk 5y ago
        China used the same Chinese vaccines as Hong Kong and according to ABC News in Australia only 62% of Shanghai residents over 60 have been vaccinated. This is fairly typical; Chinese policy was to focus on vaccinating people of working age. There have been multiple reported outbreaks at elderly care facilities in Shanghai recently. China is still reporting no Covid deaths. Now, a bunch of people have been complaining their relatives at those facilities died, but officially none of them are Covid deaths.
• simonebrunozzi 5y ago
  > This is the biggest, richest, most international city of China and people are starving, without medicine, and without freedom. Ouch. Seems like a really bad situation.
  • somewhereoutth 5y ago
    The article provides no direct evidence of people starving, only that 'We cannot freely choose our recipes'. There is also a picture of 3 fresh fish!
    • likeabbas 5y ago
      • Jerrrry 5y ago
    • krona 5y ago
      One assumes he acquired the fish with the exchange of money, however some occupations actually still require your physical presence outside your bedroom. Do you see the catch-22? Given the photo of food rations (unlikely to support an adult for a day) the implication is there is no financial support for Shanghai residents, but the author doesn't say.
      • deleted 5y ago
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      • deleted 5y ago
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    • zshbleaker 5y ago
      Dude I live in Shanghai and I’m starving. Just wiped the refrigerator for tomorrow and got no clue for what’s next.
• jdrc 5y ago
  Little weird to be talking about peopel starving and lacking meds, but then again they re able to find fresh fish. Anyway, i wonder what this pattern of isolatation can create in terms of covid variants which may develop in china or australia but which haven't been introduced to the rest of world this season.
  • ImaCake 5y ago
    Well Australia is open and has been for a while. As far as I know there were no novel variants that were found first here because the lockdowns suppressed case numbers and besides, there is only 25 million Australians. We have the same variants as the rest of the world, except most Australians don't know anyone who has died from COVID.
    • Jedd 5y ago
      Can confirm, up to a point, though I'm an edge case in AU -- in part because everyone I know has been careful, sane, and kept up with vaccinations. The count of people I know who've had COVID is now up to 16, and they've all been fine, of course. Naturally, no one I know has been hospitalised, let alone died.
    • jefftk 5y ago
      Australia: 6.6k deaths, 25M population, 0.03% dead US: 1M deaths, 300M people, 0.3% dead. On the other hand, Australia's had most of their deaths recently and is still going, while the US deaths were mostly earlier. So the gap will likely narrow over time.
      • threatripper 5y ago
        > So the gap will likely narrow over time. No. Most of the early deaths occured because people didn't get some vaccine immunity before getting their first infection. Most people in Australia were vaccinated before their first infection thereby lowering the death rate.
        • 5y ago
• TheBlight 5y ago
  If you believe anything you've heard about covid coming out of China for the last 2+ years I have a bridge to sell you.
  • darkhorn 5y ago
    If you believe anything China says I have you a bridge to sell you.
    • xtian 5y ago
      That would make sense since they’re still building them in China
      • tome 5y ago
        So they say.
        • xtian 5y ago
          Best not to check
    • 6thaccount 5y ago
    • ceejayoz 5y ago
      If you believe China's been having massive deaths throughout the last two years, why is Shanghai's spike notable? China's great at squashing internal protests, but it's still porous; information gets out, and has throughout the pandemic, from the very beginning with doctors posting on social media that something was going on.
  • somewhereoutth 5y ago
    Large scale infections like we've had elsewhere would be impossible to hide. China's low case and death rate is broadly accurate.
• nonrandomstring 5y ago
  Everyone here is commenting on Covid, vaccines, social policy and whatnot. I can't help but see a different, bigger and human story here. It's about how the systems people erect around themselves turn against them. Gated communities whose guards become jailers. Convenient fast food delivery systems that become tools of rationing and siege. News and communications systems turned to propaganda and social control. Meanwhile the only good vibe in here is the person-to-person charity and sharing that occurs amongst the "prisoners". We should look at this and learn a very important lesson as technologists.
  • thaumasiotes 5y ago
    > It's about how the systems people erect around themselves turn against them. Gated communities whose guards become jailers. Historically this is backwards. 小区 existed in the Tang dynasty much as they do today, but the gate was not operated at the direction of the residents - there was a curfew, and if you lived in a 小区 you had to obey it. If you lived in a house that opened directly onto the street, you were exempt from the curfew.
    • nonrandomstring 5y ago
      That is interesting. But surely you're talking of things that happened thousands of years ago. Are you saying that modern Chinese people are generally comfortable living in conditions approximate to imprisonment? Is the Great Wall really like the Iron Curtain, there to keep its citizens inside?
      • thaumasiotes 5y ago
        I'm saying this doesn't represent systems being set up for one purpose and then developing into a different, more nefarious purpose. The men at the gate were jailors before they were guards. > surely you're talking of things that happened thousands of years ago. Well, sort of. The Tang dynasty was from roughly 600-900 AD. > Is the Great Wall really like the Iron Curtain, there to keep its citizens inside? I realize this is just rhetoric, but as far as I understand it, the Great Wall's primary purpose is indeed to keep people in. Just not to keep citizens in. You can't stop barbarians from getting over the wall, because it's too long to defend it all. But when they do come in, you can respond by sending an army to fight them. And when they retreat, they'll have a hell of a time getting over the wall before you can catch up to them. (The steppe nomads to the north of China are highly mobile but low in population. China is the reverse. So in practical terms, the nomads always want to retreat, and to the extent a battle happens at all, that's a victory for China.)
• Gigachad 5y ago
  Hard to verify the source of the video but there is one going around reddit right now showing mass suicides from people jumping out of high rise windows. Claimed to be people in lockdown in Shanghai.
  • ailun 5y ago
    I saw that video and I don't they are all in Shanghai or all recent.
    • Shadonototra 5y ago
      all recent? are you sure about that? in half of them, you see people without a single mask, wich indicates they are not that recent ;) aren't you trying to spread misinformation? https://www.americashealthrankings.org/explore/annual/measure/Suicide/state/ALL https://www.americashealthrankings.org/explore/annual/measur... In the USA: 1.4 millions suicide attempt in 2019 4000 suicide a day! make a video about it, and you'll have the same effect ;) Okok, let's only take deaths 47.5k deaths in 2019 from suicides 130 deaths a day! 2.5 deaths per state a day! make a video about it, and you'll get the same effect!
      • debo_ 5y ago
        I believe there was a typo in the post you're replying to — it looks like the poster intended to write "I don't think they're in Shanghai or all recent."
        • Shadonototra 5y ago
          Oh you are right, my bad!
      • kzrdude 5y ago
        You misread the comment you are responding to. It has typos, so maybe not suprising.
      • ailun 5y ago
• magpi3 5y ago
  I am in China too. In Shenzhen. I think the author is very unkind to the Bao An. I am 100% sure they would treat me the same if there is a similar lockdown here, but I imagine they are under a lot of pressure. My hearts go out to them though. I have a dog here in China, and I am very afraid of what will happen to her if an outbreak like this hits my area. And how can you even have a dog if you can't leave a building for two weeks? What a nightmare.
  • Jonovono 5y ago
    Be careful - they are killing peoples dogs that test positive for covid
    • philliphaydon 5y ago
      They are killing the pets if the owners test for covid. https://www.whatsonweibo.com/another-pet-dog-beaten-to-death-by-healthcare-worker-growing-frustrations-about-shanghais-covid-lockdown/ https://www.whatsonweibo.com/another-pet-dog-beaten-to-death...
      • trasz 5y ago
        As usual - no sources, no real article to speak of, just a fuel for shills.
        • philliphaydon 5y ago
          Ohhh I see, it's just fake news from people in China, they computer generated all the videos in the last week showing culling of animals. Got it, don't trust information coming from China.
          • trasz 5y ago
            No, it’s the selection of facts that makes it a shill outlet. China is twice the size of Europe, I’m pretty sure someone in Europe also killed a dog once. It’s just that there aren’t hundreds of millions of US money spent every year on anti-European propaganda.
• CommanderData 5y ago
  The shear size of some of these provinces make the logistical challenge of food delivery almost impossibile. This is horrifying and to think people are starving in these conditions with no option but to run away with dire consequences.
  • threatripper 5y ago
    > The shear size of some of these provinces make the logistical challenge of food delivery almost impossibile. This kind of argument sounds like a logical fallacy to me. Sure, if a single person or organization suddenly needs to supply a large area it's a logistical nightmare. For example if the USA would suddenly need to supply hundreds of millions of people in China. But that is not the case. In those areas the logistical systems have grown together with the area. If you really think about it there is nowhere in this world where many people could run away to. Sure, there are a few nice places where a few people could run away to. But in total most people will have to stay where they are. If the logistical systems of the world fail or a massive natural disaster occurs many areas will have a lot of starving people.
    • maxerickson 5y ago
      The logistical system that grew with the area has been disrupted by the lockdown. The primary final link was probably people going to stores and restaurants to get food, which they currently aren't allowed to do. A logical fallacy isn't a "feeling", it's a short hand for identifying a poor use of logic, you should be able to directly explain the flaw you see in the other posters reasoning.
      • anthony_d 5y ago
        > "The shear size of some of these provinces make the logistical challenge of food delivery almost impossibile." This is a weak assertion without proof. You can either agree with it, dismiss it or you can question the basis for it. Real logic is entirely useless here (for many reasons), but guessing the basis is logically flawed is perfectly reasonable for humans having a conversation. Using pedantry to shut down differing opinions isn't useful.
• temp8964 5y ago
  This is China, but not sure about the city. People kneel on the street to get COVID test QR scan: https://twitter.com/JackPosobiec/status/1510829144590123010 https://twitter.com/JackPosobiec/status/1510829144590123010
• mensetmanusman 5y ago
  A high school friend of ours is apartment-jailed in Shanghai right now. She is a young mom, and all the moms in the apartment are all out of everything required to care for babies. Trying to share strategies on how to use any kitchen ingredients to make formula or rash ointments… I wonder if this will actually have any political blowback in the coming years, or if this only strengthens the ccp.
  • treeman79 5y ago
    Complaining is against the party. China makes use of people who complain to much https://nypost.com/2022/04/07/researchers-claim-chinese-surgeons-are-cutting-out-prisoners-hearts-while-theyre-still-alive/amp/ https://nypost.com/2022/04/07/researchers-claim-chinese-surg...
    • deleted 5y ago
      [deleted]
    • 8f9acd32 5y ago
      That's terrifying :( and incredibly sad for anyone who ends up in that position and China as a people. Can someone explain the downvotes? This is HN not the CCP, we demand action to be backed up with reason. The article suggested "political prisoners" to be included in those ending being killed by organ harvesting, so it seems relevant to the parent's comment: > Robertson claims surgeons operated on death-row prisoners and “prisoners of conscience”, which could include political prisoners [edit] Votes seem to have changed. That's not helped my fear of being monitored :/
      • aliswe 5y ago
        you do not complain against hn voting system.
        • treeman79 5y ago
          A perfect response. :)
• russellbeattie 5y ago
  The lockdown is cruel and extreme, but it will save many more lives than anything less drastic. China understands the threat and isn't fucking around with the response. They're not locking down the country's economic engine for fun, or (according to the article) to save face. Thinking that is both racist and childish. They're doing it to save lives. This guy is caught in the middle, and I feel for him, but he's too close to it for any sort of perspective. The city will be up and running by summer as if nothing ever happened.
  • nazgul17 5y ago
    Since covid is a highly transmissible disease, if you pursue a zero covid policy while not being an island, you're in for never ending pain.
    • redisman 5y ago
      Not even an island works unless you stop travel forever
• Jonovono 5y ago
  For anyone interested, here are a couple Instagram accounts I am following posting from inside Shanghai. Scary stuff. Potentially NSFW (sometimes they post videos of some nasty stuff happening) https://instagram.com/kaypapaii https://instagram.com/kaypapaii https://instagram.com/ciaransingleton https://instagram.com/ciaransingleton
  • dmix 5y ago
    Are they live videos because I don’t see anything on either account…
    • hmd_imputer 5y ago
      Check out their "Stories"
      • Jonovono 5y ago
        Ya, clearly I didn't realize people don't know how to use Instagram lol. For those confused make sure you view their stories (you tap on their profile picture)
  • entropie 5y ago
    There is nothing topic related to see. I consider this spam.
    • Jonovono 5y ago
      What do you mean nothing topic related to see? It's literal first hand videos from Shanghai, and the topic of this post is "An Account of the Shanghai Lockdown". What would make it more on topic? View their stories. These people post videos everyday from inside Shanghai, since this is a post about accounts of Shanghais handling of Covid, I figured there may be others interested in seeing these.
      • entropie 5y ago
• kvetching 5y ago
• Barrin92 5y ago
  Kind of crazy how sentimental and emotional the response is with barely any actual discussion going on about the merits of this on a grand scale. Yes, stories about people's dogs and temporary economic depression are awful. The larger picture is that China by pursuing these policies has stopped millions of deaths, probably tens of millions of cases of long term disabilities, and overall kept the economy going. It's weird to me that someone ends up in China and is surprised by collectivist policies.
  • pmlnr 5y ago
    The greater good argument, eh? That never works in the long run.
  • iflp 5y ago
    The lockdown policy was successful in these aspects before, but it’s very unclear if it can still work with omicron.
    • somewhereoutth 5y ago
      Indeed, and success/failure may give us an indication of how much more inherently contagious Omicron actually is, versus how much of our spread has been due to vaccine evasion and restriction relaxation.
  • kyrra 5y ago
    China also likely lies about their numbers so it's not likely we'd know the real death count. According to their stats, they had covid 4 covid deaths in all of 2021. This puts them at the number 2 best results spot. The issue here being that all the top stats spots for least deaths are from island countries, which china is not.
    • mike_h 5y ago
      China is on Earth, not in some other solar system. If their excess deaths per capita were a fraction of the numbers in the West, there would be no way to hide it.
• gerbilly 5y ago
  It seems like condos and apartments can easily be turned into prisons. I'm glad I live in a house, even if it is in north america.
  • geraldyo 5y ago
    Do you think they wouldn't be able to keep you inside a house?
    • Jerrrry 5y ago
      Yes?
    • bigDinosaur 5y ago
      It'd be almost impossible to police, although you could in theory do it. An apartment building can have its main doors locked and bolted and guarded by a few police and that might trap hundreds of people.
      • neither_color 5y ago
        In the short term it might work but if people start literally starving there's one tool that Americans are more likely to have and might start using. It would be total chaos.
      • HWR_14 5y ago
        I mean, house arrest is less about guarding the doors and more about catching people out on the streets. Plus, you'd secure the stores (which are deigned to be locked up) to discourage people if you wanted to lock up an American suburb.
    • gerbilly 5y ago
      Yes, they could, but could they keep everyone in a city of millions in their houses though?
      • jimmydorry 5y ago
• egberts1 5y ago
  Can care packages be sent to the OP? Safely?
  • user_named 5y ago
    I'm technically the OP but not the author. You cannot send packages to either of us as there are no deliveries being made.
    • egberts1 5y ago
      why are they not using drones to deliver food from apartment windows to apartment windows?
• mike_h 5y ago
  I’m in Shanghai too. It’s a city of 25+ million people: there will be some bad stories. But overall it is running remarkably and the vast majority of people aren’t thinking about how oppressed they are by having to eat fish. They’re helping each other and encouraging each other, because they know the cost of not doing this is millions of lives.
  • Canada 5y ago
    Really? How come it didn't cost millions of lives elsewhere that didn't impose such strict rules?
    • fabian2k 5y ago
      The number of confirmed COVID deaths in the US is almost a million, so "millions" doesn't seem that much of a stretch for a much larger country like China. Of course this is not directly comparable because the number of deaths depends on vaccination status and age demographics. And other countries with fewer deaths have higher vaccination rates. China has the problem of both, low vaccination rates in the risk populations and worse vaccines than the mRNA ones. But lockdowns can't work forever, I don't see how this is sustainable without dramatically increasing vaccination rates and getting better vaccines. Lockdowns only gain you time, you still have to do something useful with that time.
  • ipaddr 5y ago
    You would not know what people are really thinking because sharing misery will land you in jail. Is that how separated mothers feel in lockdown jails?
    • mike_h 5y ago
      That’s not how it works. Plenty of negative stuff shared online.
      • deleted 5y ago
        [deleted]
• dirtyid 5y ago
  SH miscalculated/mananged trying to live with covid in the first place. Jilin (5m) and Shengyang (9m) both coming out of lockdown after month - seems like new stealth strain is still broadlycontainable. Whether cost is worth it medium term is another question. Probably time to force elders to vaccinate and then try to live with covid again. From what I read they're cutting off SH by shutting regional HWs and moving to reopenning by districts that manage to zero tests. As for logistics issues with delivery, inevitable at this scale, but should be within state capacity to sort out. In terms of eating bitter, skipping a few meals is mild relative to even recent PRC history.
• bingohbangoh 5y ago
  What makes this lockdown stricter than past lockdowns such as in Feb-April 2020?
  • wb14123 5y ago
    Because of Omicron
• yakorevivan 5y ago
• somewhereoutth 5y ago
  "This makes this whole lockdown feel drenched in identity politics, because letting go of zero covid forces China to also let go of that narrative." Not identity politics - perhaps national pride, but certainly not identity politics. Shame the author raises this 'dog whistle' in this otherwise credible article.
  • smcl 5y ago
    The author writes well in English but it is clear English isn't their first language, it's entirely likely they were just using a term they've heard a few times and thought was right and weren't trying to dogwhistle (not sure what they would be dogwhistling even if they were)
• tangsanqian 5y ago
  As a Chinese, I can say that the situation is worse than it in the article. My brother is a student who lives in a flat and has not eaten for two days and no one has brought basic substances. He can't leave the flat, he turns to his tutor but his tutor is also forced to stay at home (eating instant noodles every day). We are worried about him but there is nothing we can do, if we criticise the government on chinese Twitter we will be arrested by the police. ಥ_ಥ
  • FerociousTimes 5y ago
    The only hope for your brother is if there's a black market for food staples and basic commodities taken shape in Shanghai already and there's an informal network of couriers to deliver food behind all the barriers
  • Drblessing 5y ago
    That's deplorable, I hope everything works out all right.
  • baka367 5y ago
    me and my wife (we live in Suzhou) actually talked that if this happens to our city, it might actually become worth to "cause trouble" and get arrested, hoping that there would be some food given in the police station. Its ridiculous how dystopian such conversations have become recently...
  • kurthr 5y ago
    Yes, and anyone without a Shanghai hukou (identity card) is not even allowed to get government food. That is a LOT of people in the Shanghai region. I wish the best for everyone stuck there.
  • danuker 5y ago
    Terrifying. Is there no private food delivery?
    • user_named 5y ago
      No they shut down all deliveries of food and food stuff like a week before the lockdown. You could still get some during that time, but I have many orders that never shipped. After lockdown started, all deliveries stopped.
• mstaoru 5y ago
  Based in Shanghai since 2014, I can share some details on why it feels so unbearable to be here right now. Firstly, the totalitarian government have never been good at communicating anything except propaganda. So on one hand we're inundated with "Go Shanghai!" and how brave volunteers distribute food, on the other hand, we're completely in the dark about what's going on. Goalposts are being moved daily, rumors proliferate, and things change every day, adding a lot of stress to an already suboptimal situation. Second, I can confirm that the food situation is extremely bad. We are a family of two, and always been kind of preppers, so we had many bags of rice, pasta, dehydrated veg, frozen meats in our large fridge. Chinese society, en masse, is much more used to just ordering food daily. Many people never cook. It's cheaper this way (though of course the quality varies). Bigger families with aunties who can cook just used to pop by the local wet market daily and get a bag of fresh produce. Many households might not even have a fridge at all, or have a small one. The government was saying that "there will be no lockdown", and when the lockdown became imminent, people barely had two days to stock up. Queues, fights, empty shelves everywhere. More stress. A lot of people in our community do not have any food left, and we've received two government issued "rations" so far (in 12 days of lockdown): one with 5 tomatoes, and one with 3 pounds of chicken drumsticks, 3 potatoes, 1 head of cauliflower, and a bunch of rotten lettuce. If we did not stock up, we would be starving right now. We donated quite a bit of food to our neighbors already, and many people are actually very close to having no food at all. Getting a delivery is almost impossible, group orders organized by compounds are often ridiculously overpriced, and not always work out. Scams are emerging. Thirdly, I understand the author's frustration with the guards ("baoan"). Those people never had any formal power, but now they "run things" and, for many, the newly obtained power went to their heads. Violence and abuse is abound. We have PCR tests every 1-2 days, sometimes at 6am, some compounds at 3am. People dragged from their beds and forced to stand in queues. How would you respond to all that? Yes, it has some potential to save lives, but if it was communicated better, if we had more time to prepare, and they could still run food deliveries, nobody would complain that much. It's terribly mismanaged, and even after we "open up", I will strongly reconsider staying here. Omicron will return, and I do not want to be here for the next (and next, and next) lockdown.
  • rapind 5y ago
    > I will strongly reconsider staying here. It’s fascinating to me how tolerant some people are. After reading your comment (very informative thanks!), I would be well past “considering”. I’d be gone (with family in toe) as soon as humanly possible.
• api 5y ago
  This is what annoys me about the US COVID protesters. We really didn’t have lockdowns in the US. A lockdown is when you have curfews, can’t go out, can’t travel at all, etc. I saw little of that in the US and what was there was sparsely enforced to the point of being not much more than a suggestion.
  • ceilingcorner 5y ago
    Perhaps if you had invested your life savings into a business, which was then forced to be shut down, you would have more sympathy.
    • chasd00 5y ago
      Totally agree. Lots of lives were devastated over these “not serious lockdowns”. Let’s not even talk about the effects of school closures…
  • School-Cotton 5y ago
    Meanwhile pro-restriction people were constantly saying “if we’d only had a REAL lockdown like China, this would all be over by now!” I guess you guys don’t really use that argument anymore, huh?
    • chasd00 5y ago
      And, ironically, it is effectively over in places with a non strict lockdown policy. Once omicron became dominant it was over, it’s so infectious it’s pointless to lock down. Omicron was/is the ultimate vaccine in the US at least.
      • School-Cotton 5y ago
        Yep, exactly. It’s been basically over in Arizona and Florida for more than a year, in NYC since Omicron, in Germany it probably will be after the present wave, and in Australia and China it may never be. The duration of Covid-related disruptions depends almost entirely on how much a society chooses to sacrifice to prevent spread.
• imiric 5y ago
  > People are finding out that state media exists not for accurate news, but only to spin reality into a narrative that fits the powers higher up. Are people really finding that out only now? I thought that this was generally accepted knowledge even in China, despite the constant fear and propaganda they live with. What's happening now with the strict lockdowns and zero-Covid policy is inhumane. People are literally prisoners in their own homes and anyone in a position of power will abuse it to avoid hurting their social score. What a fucked up situation.
  • techolic 5y ago
    > Are people really finding that out only now? I thought that this was generally accepted knowledge even in China, despite the constant fear and propaganda they live with. Yes and no. You see, 2 decades ago probably half of my peers had that knowledge, that was when the internet was pretty much uncensored compared to how it is today. Over the years they get converted by the narrative and now it's probably 5% or even less that keeps a critical mind when reading anything from anywhere, which is, your know, all censored.
    • pmlnr 5y ago
      This is interesting to hear, because distrust got so deeply embedded in Hungarians in the previous and the current system, that at this point, barely anyone believe anything, and the ones that do follow after the conspiracy lunatics.
      • daemoens 5y ago
        That's interesting, what I've read mostly says Orban took over most of the media, especially TV and that's been a big reason for why he won reelection. I'm guessing you're Hungarian, is that true?
    • starkd 5y ago
      It takes constant vigilance and a high degree of discernment to see through such a narrative. They know its hard to keep up over long term. That's why the maintenance of alternative news sources is so important before it gets that bad.
• nynx 5y ago
  When people are starving and have nothing left to lose, change happens.
  • walkhour 5y ago
    I wish this was true but I'm skeptical, how is the change going in North Korea? 3-12% of their population starved to death [0] [0] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_Korean_famine https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_Korean_famine
• chasd00 5y ago
  With omicron isn’t a zero Covid policy a fools errand? As the virus mutates into ever more infectious variants a zero-Covid policy becomes impossibe.
  • deleted 5y ago
    [deleted]
  • hans1729 5y ago
    Since Sinovac is basically useless (about half as effective against the original virus, much less vs delta and omicron), China seems to come to the conclusion that letting Omicron run through would have worse consequences than the lockdowns. It’s a fucked situation.
    • marcosdumay 5y ago
      What I don't get is, China has more than enough money to buy a vaccine that is more effective, and more than enough research capability to develop something against omicron if it's that bad there. Why don't they? (Also, why didn't we scale the vaccines with the confidence we had, instead of waiting months doing nothing just because the complete results weren't available?)
      • guardiangod 5y ago
        Because all 4 China made vaccines' pharmaceutical companies are backed by higher ups in the CCP. Every Chinese vaccine injected is money to these officials(or their relatives') wallets
        • marcosdumay 5y ago
          Well, so adapt them for the omicron. It's something every other vaccine producer did at some point, but didn't move forward because it was not the best policy outside of China.
          • 5y ago
• pnw 5y ago
  Newsflash: communism sucks.
  • anonu 5y ago
    We can also generalize: Dictatorial regimes suck. For all the gnashing, grinding, complaining, partisan politics in the USA over COVID policies, I think the USA came out alright. The detractors will say the USA failed. That 1m people died. A tragedy for sure and maybe a portion of those deaths would have been avoidable had we had better messaging from the Trump regime. But net result we have our freedoms intact. The USA is on a quick road to recovery economically. We've avoided a depression and unemployment is fairly low. It's not perfect... By far. But at least this is not Shanghai.
    • shrimp_emoji 5y ago
      USA: Debian[0] Shanghai: Windows 11 0: https://lwn.net/SubscriberLink/890219/79e54e3aab20bd87/ https://lwn.net/SubscriberLink/890219/79e54e3aab20bd87/
    • briHass 5y ago
      Let's also not forget the 10 billion dollars the US committed to vaccines (Warp Speed, under Trump) and the obvious promise of massive financial windfalls for the successful pharmaceutical companies from high-paying US citizens through our public/private health insurance. Our HC system is a mess, and expensive, but the rest of the world benefitted massively from our investment.
  • shrimp_emoji 5y ago
    It's not communism, if your charitability/level of interest in politics/economics can afford that pedantry. :p Authoritarian, repressive regimes founded on weak, corruptible institutions with limited regard for human rights which combine the failings of human leadership with poor information and lack of trust from everyone involved indeed suck.
• blhack 5y ago
  This is legitimately confusing to me. Didn’t we learn that: 1) Lockdown do nothing 2) Vaccines are effective Why are they locking people down? Why aren’t they just vaccinating them all?
  • unicornfinder 5y ago
    In short, because the vaccines available in China, as it turns out, aren't all that effective at all, and the Chinese government desperately needs to save face now.
  • JoshTko 5y ago
    Lockdowns were extremely effective in preventing healthcare collapse in nearly all countries it was implemented. Countries that did not go into lockdown early on such as Sweden were seeing up to 15% death rated. Lockdowns allowed sufficient time for the development and distribution of effective vaccines. China unfortunately has not completed the latter step of wide distribution of an effective vaccine. Their healthcare system will collapse without lockdowns.
    • School-Cotton 5y ago
      > Countries that did not go into lockdown early on such as Sweden were seeing up to 15% death rates. No they weren’t. Show your source.
      • JoshTko 5y ago
        https://www.google.com/search?q=covid+cases+sweden&oq=covid+cases+sweden&aqs=chrome..69i57j0i512l8.3048j0j7&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8 https://www.google.com/search?q=covid+cases+sweden&oq=covid+... Compare the case rates vs death rates in April 2020. Cases averaged around 500 and deaths are around 50-80.
        • School-Cotton 5y ago
          That's CFR, which is meaningless.
• alangibson 5y ago
  I'd like to hear from someone in China on why the government still pursues a zero-Covid policy. Is it just face-saving at this point?
  • danenania 5y ago
    Once a large bureaucracy gears itself up to solve a problem, it will keep trying to solve the problem even after it’s not a real problem anymore.
  • stjohnswarts 5y ago
    Yeah. I mean if it had a purpose it has been served. Why don't they use all that massive CCP infrastructure to have zero tolerance for not getting vaccinated instead? It's ludicrous.
    • happyopossum 5y ago
      Their vaccine doesn’t work - forcing everyone to get it would only highlight that fact.
      • stjohnswarts 5y ago
        They have the spycraft and resources to steal moderna and pfizer or even J&J if they wanted it. If that fails, they probably have the money to just buy the rights to produce it. I mean didn't sputnik at least prove somewhat effective?
        • DiogenesKynikos 5y ago
          China already has an indigenously developed vaccine (from CanSino) that uses the same technology as J&J and AstraZeneca. It's just as effective. > I mean didn't sputnik at least prove somewhat effective? Sputnik V was one of the most effective vaccines. It was more effective than J&J and AstraZeneca in phase-3 trials. > they probably have the money to just buy the rights to produce it A Chinese company, Fosun, invested in the development of the BioNTech vaccine early on, and has the rights to produce and distribute it in China. The vaccine hasn't been approved in mainland China, though. The efficacy of Chinese vaccines isn't a major issue. They're plenty effective, and 3 doses of Sinovac actually turned out to be just as effective as 3 doses of BioNTech in Hong Kong.[1] The issue is that old people in China have been hesitant to get vaccinated at all. So far, old people in China have been protected by the zero-CoVID policy, so this hasn't been an issue. If the virus starts spreading, however, it will become an issue. 1. https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2022.03.22.22272769v2 https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2022.03.22.22272769v...
• a_wang 5y ago
  the worst thing I hear that highways around Tianjin and Beijing are closed. If you have friends living in those places, please message them to reserve a loooot of foods
  • Monotoko 5y ago
    Also Suzhou, Hangzhou and Wuxi https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/902836853999276074/962235448565043200/48696bce31fa7fe142587aedf421b8e.jpg?width=429&height=671 https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/902836853999276074/...
• user_named 5y ago
  I posted a Tell HN about lockdowns coming before they were announced, about two or three weeks ago. I'm currently in lockdown, not sure when we're getting out. And then after that someone in the compound will probably be infected pretty soon and it all starts over. Feel free to AMA.
  • stjohnswarts 5y ago
    I don't see how anyone could miss it given what happened around the world with omicron. One slip and you have about 90% of the people in a room catch it, and then those people go other places.
  • mupuff1234 5y ago
    Why didn't you leave?
    • user_named 5y ago
      I like Shanghai. Where else would be better?
      • cinntaile 5y ago
        I don't know... Somewhere less totalitarian that doesn't force you to starve at home? It's not like they can keep covid out and if you're vaccinated you'll very likely be fine if you catch it anyway. Although I did read that the Sinovac vaccine was not as effective as the mRNA ones against omicron.
      • mupuff1234 5y ago
        I didn't mean permanently, just for a few weeks/months. Perhaps to a different country, or maybe just to a more rural place that is less likely(?) to be under lockdown.
      • driverdan 5y ago
        Any country that doesn't have an oppressive authoritarian government.
• Markoff 5y ago
  It's beyond me why would anyone move to Shanghai in 2017, that's already after T left China after spending there better half of decade because of how unbeareable it became with Xi coming to power and that was many years before 2017 with tightening screws in every aspect of (foreigner's) life. China peaked some time between 2008 and Xi being elected, since his election it's all going downhill very quickly. Btw. as Beijinger who spent few weeks in Shanghai on business trips I've never understood appeal of Shanghai, I'd much rather go for Shenzhen or Chengdu as alternatives to Beijing.
• bamboozled 5y ago
  What actually is going on in China, is there some type of economic meltdown in progress ? Like, we can say it's because of covid, but something seems a miss to me. > This is the biggest, richest, most international city of China and people are starving, without medicine, and without freedom. What?
  • stjohnswarts 5y ago
    I think it's as much a show of force and power by the CCP as anything. They will even shut down one of their largest and most prosperous cities on a whim if it suits their goals. Starving people and shutdown productivity do not matter in the face of what the CCP wills to happen. It's as much a warning and shot across the bow as anything.
    • bamboozled 5y ago
      Sensible long term strategy though? I doubt it...
  • zdragnar 5y ago
    Western lockdowns were absolutely tame compared to the Chinese government's version. Additionally, ordering cooked food can be extremely cheap in China, and convenient if all the adults in a household are working long hours. Some may not cook at all, or have sufficient supplies to do so for long periods of time on short notice. Shanghai also has a population of 26 million people. Organizing a super-strict lockdown while also organizing the importation and accurate delivery of food and medicine to all of these people on very short notice is a logistical and bureaucratic nightmare.
  • pxtail 5y ago
    > Like, we can say it's because of covid, but something seems a miss to me. I'm wondering about this as well - it's hard to imagine that this is not part of greater strategy so either all of this is intentional to increase pressure within Chinese society to the point of boiling for some reason - maybe to disrupt markets and world economy even more? Alternatively Omicron indeed surprised them and now when Russia is at war they do not want to deal with COVID and are ready to try to contain it at all costs.
• dayvid 5y ago
  I also highly recommend reading this thread by Naomi Wu on her thoughts of the Shanghai lockdown: https://twitter.com/RealSexyCyborg/status/1512734595485106179 https://twitter.com/RealSexyCyborg/status/151273459548510617...
  • Anthony-G 5y ago
    Thanks for that. For those who dislike Twitter, here are two alternative links: https://nitter.net/RealSexyCyborg/status/1512734595485106179 https://nitter.net/RealSexyCyborg/status/1512734595485106179 https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/1512734595485106179.html https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/1512734595485106179.html
• deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]