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ICANN's rejection of Ukraine's request to sever Russia from the internet [pdf]

509 points by 0xedb 5y ago

bjt2n3904 5y ago
Well, we've been using infrastructure (like DNS) as a weapon for a decent time. I still remember when CloudFlare decided to drop Storm Front thinking... They've opened Pandora's box. I suppose this is just the next step. Sad that it has to get this far for people to suddenly get squeamish about it.
- ceejayoz 5y ago
  Being so afraid of a slippery slope that you're too permanently paralyzed to take steps on a nice flat plateau has its own risks. CloudFlare seems to be doing just fine, and a private organization declining to do business with a neo-Nazi forum doesn't cause much worry for me. ICANN's responsibilities are very different than CloudFlare's, and the proposed action has much wider scope and impact on innocents in the dispute. They're not at all comparable scenarios, and I believe CloudFlare and ICANN both made the right decisions in the respective cases.
ramesh31 5y ago
This is pretty much an open and shut case. The precedent of ICANN taking any form of regulatory stance would be enough to tear apart the fabric of the entire internet. We would inevitably silo off into parallel networks between the various competing ideologies of the world, and polarization would go exponential.
zelon88 5y ago
Can't blame Ukraine for trying. Would it be easier to appeal directly to Tier 1 networks instead?
- shabier 5y ago
  Here's a crazier idea; we shouldn't restrict Russia in any way. It's almost a bad idea to silence voices, no matter how much we disagree with them. If anything, it is more important to challenge their propaganda with better, more accurate news debunking theirs.
  - VaxWithSex 5y ago
    Have you heard of the eternal september?
  - iso1631 5y ago
    It takes far more effort to debunk than to generate, it also takes time, and the debunking doesn't spread virally It's not a solution in the real world
    - selfhoster11 5y ago
      Assuming this propaganda is generated by government trolls, it's pretty easy for their handlers to provide them with a VPN that goes through an unlocked country. Blocking their direct access solves nothing.
  - zelon88 5y ago
    Ok, but what does Russia offer the rest of the internet besides badly written malware, WordPress comment spiders, untrue news articles, shady hosting providers, failed login attempts and honeypots full of fuzzing robots? The Russian government actively promotes hacking against the west and refuses to prosecute anyone for it.
    - shabier 5y ago
      > Ok, but what does Russia offer the rest of the internet besides badly written malware ... honeypots full of fuzzing robots? Does that even matter? The access to the general internet isn't something you have to "earn". You're not more entitled to be in this space more than the next person regardless of your contribution, beliefs or identity. > The Russian government actively promotes hacking against the west and refuses to prosecute anyone for it. Our government friends at the NSA are equally guilty of that as well, I'm not seeing much outrage over that either.
      - rosndo 5y ago
        > Our government friends at the NSA are equally guilty of that as well, I'm not seeing much outrage over that either. Indeed, all those NSA ransomware attacks on hospitals have to stop! Perhaps they’re not actually equally guilty and the NSA is far more careful with their approach than the Russians? The NotPetya wiper worm was released by the Russian government, the NSA has never been accused of anything similar. This kind of false equivalency is nothing but dishonest, you should be ashamed of yourself.
- netsharc 5y ago
  I... can. Seems like the Ukrainian government is on a roll, asking anyone and everyone to help hurt Russia and then hoping the court of public opinion (aka Twitter rage army) would get angry at organizations/governments that don't comply with their wishes. Yeah they are very much entitled to do this, they're getting bombed after all... but something about it makes me uneasy. If I had a time machine I'd check if in a few decades they'd be walking around oppresing their neighbors feeling entitled, since they're a victim now.
rvz 5y ago
Another source: https://www.thehindubusinessline.com/info-tech/icann-declines-ukraine-request-to-shut-down-russian-websites/article65186421.ece https://www.thehindubusinessline.com/info-tech/icann-decline... But very unsurprising. [0] It really was expected to be rejected. I mean just look at this extremely weak 'reason' from [1]: > All of these measures will help users seek for reliable information in alternative domain zones, preventing propaganda and disinformation. Just like how RIPE [2] took a neutral stance, there would be no chance ICANN would bend and take a side in this either. [0] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30509849 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30509849 [1] https://pastebin.com/DLbmYahS https://pastebin.com/DLbmYahS [2] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30513540 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30513540
Proven 5y ago
sschueller 5y ago
I don't think cutting of Russia from the internet is a good solution at all. It will isolate them enough to allow the government to push an anti-western agenda. They need to see the misery of the war they are inflicting and the only way is via an open internet. Yes they will push their own propaganda to the west but we can deal with that. Fire-walling them off will result in the people not knowing what is going on. Just look how China is able to hide what happened at Tienanmen square. We can not allow Russia to run the narrative by cutting of the internet. We need our pictures and videos to reach them.
- roody15 5y ago
  Also vice versa. Although war propaganda is in full swing … there is a bit of truth on the Russian side about NATO encroachment since 1997
- shabier 5y ago
  I agree with you on that. Isolating them or ourselves from them will only trigger those who're already vulnerable to extremism to be become even more extreme.
  - MaxGanzII 5y ago
    > or ourselves from them Russian media is purely State controlled and is preaching justifications for the invasion of Ukraine. This is not a free speech situation.
    - shabier 5y ago
      Oh please, the same happened in the US after 9/11, and we all rolled with it. Cut the free speech nonsense, we're (as in big tech) not enforcing it either.
      - lolinder 5y ago
        These moral equivalencies have to stop. The US didn't declare anti-war protests to be illegal and arrest 7000+ protesters in the course of the first week of the war in Iraq. The US didn't shut down independent media outlets that were opposed to the war. The US didn't block (nascent) web platforms that hosted anti-war discussion. The US media is often a propaganda arm of the government. The Russian government tries to ensure their propaganda is all you see. There's a massive difference.
core-utility 5y ago
This is an interesting approach to modern war. Let's say hypothetically the western countries (US, Canada, EU) go to war with eastern countries (Russia, China, North Korea). Western countries could levy a strong impact by pulling internet service. This may inadvertently help eastern countries by blocking Twitter, Tik Tok, etc. but would also mean that AliExpress and many eastern markets are immediately cut off from that supply chain. North Korea is a bad example here since they have little internet or trade, but included them anyways.
gruez 5y ago
See also, the maps from https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_reactions_to_the_2022_Russian_invasion_of_Ukraine https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_reactions_to_the... While most countries took a pro-Ukraine stance, there's a non-negligible amount of neutral countries. In particular are India and China. I'm sure they wont be very happy if IANA effectively breaks their internet connectivity to Russia.
- MaxGanzII 5y ago
  Russia has invaded Ukraine. It's like having a criminal break into your house. If my neighbours are unhappy with me taking action against that criminal - maybe they're friends with him - I'm not much inclined, in the situation, to have much sympathy.
  - jokethrowaway 5y ago
    State actors, at some point, have all been criminals waging wars to further their goals using taxpayers' money. I hate all of them, but I wonder why wars in the middle east don't trigger sanctions and media attention and this invasion does.
    - edgyquant 5y ago
      [flagged]
      - samstave 5y ago
        But perspective is not. Try to not throw "whataboutism" at something where perspective is key.
        edgyquant 5y ago
        Perspective isnt key, it was a pure whataboutism
        5y ago
netheril96 5y ago
The West is quick to abandon their own ideals. All the Western cutting ties with Russia has made most people I know (we are all Chinese) much more favorable towards the Great Firewall. If the West cut the ties with China, the damage is much less given that we are already in an effective LAN.
- BeefWellington 5y ago
  > The West is quick to abandon their own ideals. The response here would suggest the opposite.
  - netheril96 5y ago
    The people here do not hold power. Those who do have abandoned the ideals.
- MaxGanzII 5y ago
- jacknews 5y ago
  LOL, it's OK if they cut off our sunshine, because we're used to living in the dark anyway.
  - olibhel 5y ago
    No country should be able to cut off anyone else's sunshine (or Internet). Internet, the western version of it, was not built and shared with the world with this disclaimer that we will cut it off if we feel like it. If ICANN kicks out a country, we'd very soon see the end of ICANN because other countries will have no trust left in the organization.
    - jacknews 5y ago
      I agree, it is a universal service that should be available to everyone under any circumstance. I'm just ridiculing the comment that said 'go ahead, we don't need it'.
shabier 5y ago
Regardless of how we feel about the current conflict between the countries, it is absolutely essential to keep the internet open and accessible to everyone, including those who we don't agree with.
- MaxGanzII 5y ago
  Consider; Russia is invading Ukraine. If they keep at it, they will win; the military balance is too much in their favour. Having conquered, they will then block out all content which carries truth and replace it with propaganda, just as it is in Russia. You argue we must keep the Internet open and accessable to Russia, both in this situation, and for it to be used in this way.
  - simiones 5y ago
    No one on Earth could stop the Internet working inside Russia. The only thing that could be done, in principle, by ICANN and EU/US service providers is to block out all content coming in or out of Russia. This will have exactly the effect of blocking out all content which carries (EU/US) truth and replace it with (Russian) propaganda.
    - chinathrow 5y ago
      > No one on Earth could stop the Internet working inside Russia. Without physical intervention.
      - gorbachev 5y ago
        You're not going to get physical intervention on Russia <-> China connectivity.
    - varenc 5y ago
      > The only thing that could be done, in principle, by ICANN and EU/US service providers is to block out all content coming in or out of Russia I don't think this is true. The root DNS servers ICANN runs could stop handling requests for anything on the .ru/.su Russian TLDs. Though Russia runs the .ru servers internally, from ripn.net, there's still reliance on the root servers to point there. This would break Russian internal access to their own services. If you run `dig +trace government.ru` you can see your first query is to the various "*.root-servers.net" name servers. When I did this my queries went like this: A.ROOT-SERVERS.NET -> B.DNS.RIPN.NET -> NS2.GOV.RU That first step, contacting the centralized root servers, is where ICANN could have killed .ru domain lookups. (also my knowledge of DNS is shaky, so someone correct me if I'm wrong)
lessname 5y ago
I wonder how big thre effects were if somehow cloudflare or aws decided to stop serving to Russia (or another country).
- shabier 5y ago
  It wouldn't surprise me if AWS would do just that, given their history.
- iso1631 5y ago
  Russia blocked a lot of AWS back in 2018
- helsinkiandrew 5y ago
  Do you mean stopping internet traffic from Russia accessing websites hosted on Cloudflare/AWS or stopping Russian customers from hosting on Cloudflare/AWS services?
ukraineally 5y ago
You can't remove Russia from the internet unless you remove literally all their neighbours. Kazakhstan for example has how many links in and out of Russia? Do they not have the sovereign decision to make those connections? You can't just cut Russia off. I think the 1 decision that could be made by the Sanctioning countries... At the big tier 1 peering exchanges you could blacklist all of Russia. Don't have to worry about cyber attacks coming from Russia directly anymore.
- shabier 5y ago
  Cyberattacks are not limited to borders or geolocation- it can be sent/executed from anywhere at all times. And, like the letter mentioned, the request wasn't to "remove" Russia from the internet but rather restricting access to the routing towards Russian sites.
  - ukraineally 5y ago
    >Cyberattacks are not limited to borders or geolocation- it can be sent/executed from anywhere at all times. And, like the letter mentioned, the request wasn't to "remove" Russia from the internet but rather restricting access to the routing towards Russian sites. Yes I know. That's why i said 'directly from', sure attacks will be proxied through bots or whatever.
sega_sai 5y ago
I obviously support Ukraine in their fight against invaders (and I am Russian born), but cutting the internet from Russia would be actually more useful for the Russian government than Ukraine. Russian government just today closed the last independent radio station, blocked the website of an independent tv station , so blocking the internet would just be applauded by the Russian state for doing what they wanted to do themselves.
- _fat_santa 5y ago
  Couldn't agree more with what you said here. I have split feelings on punitive punishments like this. I like many others have family in Russia, anytime you take a punitive measure like this, sure it may punish those responsible, but it's really just going to punish every day people that just want to contact their families. Russia getting cut off from financial services is also a huge problem for every day people with families there. Right when the Ruble collapses, we have fewer and fewer means of supporting our families over there. I get the why, we are trying to cut off Putin and the oligarchs at the knees, but it's sad that everyone else is getting swept up in it.
- TameAntelope 5y ago
  More importantly (IMO) I support ICANN. If they think it makes sense to cut off Russia from the Internet, I trust them. They don't think it makes sense, so I trust them. Do I think they made the right call? Yeah, but I'm a dum dum on the Internet who has thought about this for all of 5 minutes. There might be some better form of this argument that's more nuanced than I have time to understand, so I want to be able to leave it up to ICANN to figure stuff out like this and do what's best.
  - Avalaxy 5y ago
    Be careful with that kind of reasoning. Appeal to authority is a fallacy that can bite you in the ass. Pretty sure many Russians trust Putin to make the right choices.
    - TameAntelope 5y ago
allisdust 5y ago
If ICANN took a side in this, then in a year there won't be an ICANN. There will be several miniCANNs catering to different countries (at least the large ones).
sAbakumoff 5y ago
Russia will cut itself from the internet in a couple of weeks, no need to worry.
helsinkiandrew 5y ago
> ICANN's rejection of Ukraine's request to sever Russia from the internet Isn't that headline patently false clickbait? The second paragraph: "You have asked that ICANN target Russia’s access to the Internet by revoking specific countrycode top-level domains operated from within Russia, arranging the revocation of SSL certificates issued within those domains, and shutting down a subset of root servers located in Russia."
- TheJoeMan 5y ago
  I do think there is a difference between "sever" and "disable Russian TLD's". Don't they collect a fee to create TLD's? And therefore are directly engaging in commerce with Russia?
  - treesknees 5y ago
    To answer your question, no it's not a fee. According to the .ru ccTLD agreement documents [1], the "Coordination Center for TLD RU" (the entity which operates the .ru TLD) voluntarily agrees to pay to ICANN $30k USD annually. The document is worded that ICANN's obligation to continue letting them use it will cease if the payment isn't made, but it also states "this review will take into account all relevant circumstances." The way I read this is it's an agreement to donate per year to cover the infrastructure/overhead of ICANN, but doesn't state it's a contractual fee or payment _for_ the ccTLD. If I had to guess, if this payment does fall under sanctions/restrictions, that would be covered under "relevant circumstances" to which ICANN wouldn't just pull the rug out from Russia in the name of Internet stability. [1] https://www.icann.org/en/system/files/files/icann-ru-letters-25mar07-en.pdf https://www.icann.org/en/system/files/files/icann-ru-letters...
c7DJTLrn 5y ago
Maybe if Ukraine sends a bribe their way it'll happen. That's usually how things go with ICANN. But cutting Russia off from the Internet isn't a good idea.
foverzar 5y ago
Never thought I'd see the day when Russian "Sovereign RUnet" project would actually start making sence.
ianai 5y ago
Consider always the ramifications of defeat. If Russia shows nothing truly matters against them. If nuclear weapons are all anyone makes a decision based on then only nuclear weapons matter. Do you think China is watching this? Duh. Do you think that translates to further invasions? Duh. The barrel of options against Russia needs to be exhausted. The only way to stop a bully such as this is to hit them the hardest, most brutal way, earliest. Putin and anyone supporting him should have been routed in the early 2000s. This decision here is nothing short of appeasement.
- shabier 5y ago
  > The only way to stop a bully such as this is to hit them the hardest, most brutal way, earliest. Only if we had the same attitude against European countries or the US. It really seems like a one-sided stance most of the time. One of the few times that a European or US (allay) receives similar treatment as they dish out, they completely freak out, making outrageous demands or requests such as the one to ICANN. > The barrel of options against Russia needs to be exhausted. Strong disagree, we should just retaliate in any way just for the sake of it- that's just not effective. edit: formatting
  - ianai 5y ago
    ICANN and the existence of the internet are products of sovereignty post-WWII and free economy. If you want your Disney+ then you must agree to the post WWII world. Putin and Russia are currently living out a bygone era in the modern day. The two are incompatible.
  - dangerface 5y ago
    > Only if we had the same attitude against European countries or the US. It really seems like a one-sided stance most of the time. The Iraq invasion was unprovoked and unjustified we lied about our reasons for doing it if other countries stood up to us maybe we would have responded differently. I protested our government when we did what Russia is doing I haven't changed my position one inch, maybe no one else has, maybe other westerners are just trying to justify Russia in hopes it will some how justify US actions, it doesn't both countries are bullies and deserve the same response.
pcdoodle 5y ago
api 5y ago
This is a really terrible idea. It would make it much easier for Putin to control the narrative in his own country.
lmilcin 5y ago
I am Polish. When Polish people revolted against Soviets it was because we have seen better life was possible. It was exactly because we had access to alternate message. I don't think cutting off a country in a situation like that is helpful at all. If anything, it is making it easier for pro-Putin propaganda. I would also remind that Russia itself build capability to cut itself off from the Internet. Yes, we would be doing them a favour because right now they might hesitate to do it by themselves fearing backlash from people who do not care about politics or anybody else at all but do care about having Internet access.
dsabanin 5y ago
Ukraine needs help, they are getting desperate. Yes, they're standing and pushing back even, but Russians kill so many civilians... I don't think world can afford to watch how it's just being destroyed like this. Russian people are brainwashed and are under military occupation right now, they can't effectively overthrow this government. All the Putin's cronies are locked with him in a bunker, under complete control. This is a bad situation from all angles.
kingkawn 5y ago
The sanctions can backfire spectacularly, as they often do, leading to mass suffering and isolation for the populace, further radicalization of the leadership, and less reason for compromise as economic/cultural entanglements are severed.
jonsully 5y ago
Oof. This is definitely the right response. That would be a powerful, terrible precedent to set — one that could be catastrophic if turned toward a different country perhaps
hughrr 5y ago
Good. They need our views and we need their intelligence.
DoItToMe81 5y ago
ICANN should strive to be as neutral as it possibly can. Very glad they rejected this.
sdevonoes 5y ago
Still surprises me all the bans imposed to Russia. Never heard of such a thing with regards (to mention something recent) Israel attacks on Palestine. It is definitely one thing to attack a European country a total different one to attack some other third-world country.
- matwood 5y ago
  Every situation is unique, but if you really want to compare the two, the Israel/Palestine situation is closer to the territory in eastern Ukraine that has been contested for 7-8 years at this point. No one was banning Russia for that ongoing conflict. Heck, even the Crimea sanctions had been mostly lifted.
  - pastacacioepepe 5y ago
    I Agree. The separatist republics of Donbass and Donetsk have been under attack from Ukraine for years. The Ukrainian army shelled residential areas and killed civilians in the complete indifference of the west. If we really want to force a comparison, Ukraine has behaved like Israel here. With the exception that in this case "Palestine" has a powerful friend on their side, Russia.
    - throwaway_4ever 5y ago
      > The separatist republics of Donbass and Donetsk Move along, this person has no idea what they're talking about except poorly mis-regurgitating Kremlin propaganda
      - dsugarman 5y ago
        Here is evidence of your conclusion that they are into Russian propaganda: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30514215 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30514215 If you read through their other comments, they are doing everything they can to spread pro-Russia misinformation throughout HN many times a day.
hogrider 5y ago
These guys have blood on their hands.
- jokethrowaway 5y ago
  Which country doesn't? Wasn't the USA "freeing" Iraq and Afghanistan until yesterday?
dangerface 5y ago
Russia has state sponsored hackers who's only goal in life is to ddos / disrupt / destroy the internet. Why would the internet entertain a country that has set its mind on destroying it? The only argument I see in comments is that letting Russian citizens get on VK is more important than allowing Ukrainian citizens to communicate and organise evacuations before the Russian tanks turn up. Are you all on crack or something?
Chris2048 5y ago
Why "cut them off" rather than mark all ru originating traffic with a specific header/tag? That way, consumers can decide whether to reject that traffic or not. I'd also support individual services extending this to e.g. tagging user accounts. That way you could: - mark posts in forums based on if they originated in ru i.e. better detection of Russian bots/shills in forums where Russian-based participation doesn't make a lot of sense. - firewall forums s.t. different groups of users cannot see each other.
lettergram 5y ago
The Russians want sanctions, they want UN officials walking out refusing to listen to diplomats. It makes the west look petulant and will only bolster the reason Putin gave publicly for starting the war. Russia has been preparing to be isolated for 15-20 years. They are largely self-reliant and have four massive trade partners in Brazil, China, Iran and India. Plus Germany needs their fuel and have no alternative. The more the west sanctions the worse it’ll be for the west and better it’ll be for Russia. Ultimately, the war is over. Russia supposedly wants an independent neutral country; I suspect they’ll take half the country and force the other half to be neutral.
breakfastduck 5y ago
Thank goodness for such a levelheaded response. Phew.
exabrial 5y ago
If we learned one thing from Corona pandemic, please take away that censorship make things worse, both public and private platforms.
compsciphd 5y ago
as I wrote elsewhere. removing the resolution of .ru isn't cutting them off from the internet. It just makes it much harder for them to spread their propaganda. Anyone in russia could still resolve www.cnn.com and the like. The only Q would be would Russia retaliate by going all china with a great firewall, thereby them actually severing themselves from the internet.
- x86_64Ubuntu 5y ago
  What propaganda has Russia been spreading outside of it's borders? At least in the Western media, all the propaganda has been pro-Western, with eventually-proven-false narratives dominating the scene such as the Ghost of Kyiv (a flight simulator) and the Snake Island massacre (they lived).
charonn0 5y ago
I get why ICANN doing this would have been a bad idea. On the other hand, Russian-language countries are a major source of malware and other serious cybercrimes.
amznbyebyebye 5y ago
Is Ukrainian request to cancel Russian Internet a Russian psyop to discredit Ukraine? How do we know the comments in this thread are not psyop in defense of Russia having internet access? Hard to know who to trust anymore.
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
croes 5y ago
Russia threatens to block Wikipedia for covering the invasion, Ukraine is helping Russia by demanding that Russia be locked out of the internet so that Russians are completely at the mercy of Putin's propaganda. Crazy.
marcodiego 5y ago
I understand that it is possible to physically isolate a region from the internet. But, how can one do this 'logically'? Is there an international organization that can do so? How?
Mikeb85 5y ago
Nah should let them stay connected to the internet so they can see news from outside Russia. Should completely isolate them economically too. Not a single Russian should be able to receive a single dollar from anywhere outside the country until Putin is overthrown and they're out of Ukraine completely.
unmole 5y ago
Are they going to ask the ITU to revoke the +7 dialing code next? And then ask the UPU stop mail delivery to Russia?
whoopdedo 5y ago
ICANN won't do it. But an intermediary resolver, such as Quad9, can choose to drop requests it deems unsuitable. They do that all the time with domains connected to malware. Has anyone talked about doing that?
Andrew_nenakhov 5y ago
Right now I share a lot of media from Ukraine to show my russian contacts what is really happening over there in this unjust conflict. Good job Ukraine on helping Putin establish a monopoly on information spread in Russia.
rednerrus 5y ago
Information is the antidote to war. Don't cut it off.
Mo3 5y ago
> As you have said in your letter, your desire is to help users seek reliable information in alternative domain zones and prevent propaganda and disinformation. It is only through broad and unimpeded access to the Internet that citizens can receive reliable information and a diversity of viewpoints. /thread
UltraViolence 5y ago
The internet should remain a neutral communications platform. Once we start politicizing it the dream will die pretty quickly and we get segregated networks which don't interoperate or only though heavily policed gateways.
cphoover 5y ago
I think they made the correct decision here... These are the kind of foundational decisions that impact the direction of the internet as a whole. Starting a precedent for politicization is dangerous idea. I support fighting propaganda with better more believable information. Censoring information is not the answer.
tyrrvk 5y ago
I agree 100% with ICANN's position in this matter. I think their reply was level headed and correct.
phendrenad2 5y ago
Maybe we can kick ICANN off of the internet and switch to another provider. Nerds, make it happen.
benlivengood 5y ago
I think it's important to recognize that some things in the world are inherently individual-centric and cross all arbitrary political boundaries and the Internet has become one. Even during the world wars postal service and telegraph service was maintained, notably with censorship imposed. We don't fight genocidal wars in large part; the people communicating with each other across battle lines will still be friends, family, or coworkers when the war is resolved. War has changed significantly with modern communication and there aren't many wartime secrets any more; troop movements and logistics are readily seen from satellites and aircraft. It's arguable that censoring communication between countries at war has no practical war benefit. As a sanction it is also arguably not effective because as an example North Korea enforces extreme Internet censorship and this hardship on North Korean citizens does not meaningfully weaken the regime. If anything, maintaining open communication to combat propaganda is likely the most beneficial approach. There's a video circulating of a captured Russian soldier in Ukraine face-timing his mother in Russia which would have been blocked by severing Russia from the Internet, to what end? Further isolating and estranging neighbors and family during a time of extreme stress? Finding common shared humanity is always more important than tactical warfare because it usually obviates the need for continued warfare.
ipaddr 5y ago
Didn't America win the cold war because of cultural influence? Doesn't cutting Russia off also cut out that cultural influence. Does a side benefit come with a differently censored internet Russia provides where copyright is ignored?
qualudeheart 5y ago
Sanctions are necessary to hold back the steppe warlord sitting in the Kremlin. For humanitarian reasons we should make it easy for Russians to defect to the west if they want no part in what the Russian state is doing. I don’t want to economically hurt Russian civilians more than we really need to in order to save Ukraine.
TZubiri 5y ago
Nice try Ukraine.
shmerl 5y ago
Protesters and dissidents in Russia need Internet to fight against the dictator too.
aurizon 5y ago
Keep it open, broadcast Russia's shame(Putin and all Russians know it). Putin knows the knives are out for him. All visitors are searched and must have a chemical shower(I read, and I assume to stop contact nerve poisons) and he sits set apart from his guests by about 20 or so feet so a suicide bomber with a bomb in his abdomen. There were attempts to kill Hitler as his generals cam to know him as a loon of loons, that sadly failed back in the day. One can only hope his generals can persuade him or find an elegant path past his protections. I suspect he does not walk on any balconies facing Red Square either, he lost one of his generals to a sniper yesterday?
MauiWarrior 5y ago
Another ugly face of war. Paralympic ban: https://www.cnn.com/europe/live-news/ukraine-russia-putin-news-03-03-22/h_bf6877365680181968a7881b8faae5d8#:~:text=The%20International%20Paralympic%20Committee%20(IPC,Games%2C%20which%20begin%20on%20Friday https://www.cnn.com/europe/live-news/ukraine-russia-putin-ne....

509 points by 0xedb 5y ago

Well, we've been using infrastructure (like DNS) as a weapon for a decent time. I still remember when CloudFlare decided to drop Storm Front thinking... They've opened Pandora's box. I suppose this is just the next step. Sad that it has to get this far for people to suddenly get squeamish about it.

ceejayoz 5y ago
Being so afraid of a slippery slope that you're too permanently paralyzed to take steps on a nice flat plateau has its own risks. CloudFlare seems to be doing just fine, and a private organization declining to do business with a neo-Nazi forum doesn't cause much worry for me. ICANN's responsibilities are very different than CloudFlare's, and the proposed action has much wider scope and impact on innocents in the dispute. They're not at all comparable scenarios, and I believe CloudFlare and ICANN both made the right decisions in the respective cases.

ramesh31 5y ago

This is pretty much an open and shut case. The precedent of ICANN taking any form of regulatory stance would be enough to tear apart the fabric of the entire internet. We would inevitably silo off into parallel networks between the various competing ideologies of the world, and polarization would go exponential.

zelon88 5y ago

Can't blame Ukraine for trying. Would it be easier to appeal directly to Tier 1 networks instead?

shabier 5y ago
Here's a crazier idea; we shouldn't restrict Russia in any way. It's almost a bad idea to silence voices, no matter how much we disagree with them. If anything, it is more important to challenge their propaganda with better, more accurate news debunking theirs.
- VaxWithSex 5y ago
  Have you heard of the eternal september?
- iso1631 5y ago
  It takes far more effort to debunk than to generate, it also takes time, and the debunking doesn't spread virally It's not a solution in the real world
  - selfhoster11 5y ago
    Assuming this propaganda is generated by government trolls, it's pretty easy for their handlers to provide them with a VPN that goes through an unlocked country. Blocking their direct access solves nothing.
- zelon88 5y ago
  Ok, but what does Russia offer the rest of the internet besides badly written malware, WordPress comment spiders, untrue news articles, shady hosting providers, failed login attempts and honeypots full of fuzzing robots? The Russian government actively promotes hacking against the west and refuses to prosecute anyone for it.
  - shabier 5y ago
    > Ok, but what does Russia offer the rest of the internet besides badly written malware ... honeypots full of fuzzing robots? Does that even matter? The access to the general internet isn't something you have to "earn". You're not more entitled to be in this space more than the next person regardless of your contribution, beliefs or identity. > The Russian government actively promotes hacking against the west and refuses to prosecute anyone for it. Our government friends at the NSA are equally guilty of that as well, I'm not seeing much outrage over that either.
    - rosndo 5y ago
      > Our government friends at the NSA are equally guilty of that as well, I'm not seeing much outrage over that either. Indeed, all those NSA ransomware attacks on hospitals have to stop! Perhaps they’re not actually equally guilty and the NSA is far more careful with their approach than the Russians? The NotPetya wiper worm was released by the Russian government, the NSA has never been accused of anything similar. This kind of false equivalency is nothing but dishonest, you should be ashamed of yourself.
netsharc 5y ago
I... can. Seems like the Ukrainian government is on a roll, asking anyone and everyone to help hurt Russia and then hoping the court of public opinion (aka Twitter rage army) would get angry at organizations/governments that don't comply with their wishes. Yeah they are very much entitled to do this, they're getting bombed after all... but something about it makes me uneasy. If I had a time machine I'd check if in a few decades they'd be walking around oppresing their neighbors feeling entitled, since they're a victim now.

rvz 5y ago

Another source: https://www.thehindubusinessline.com/info-tech/icann-declines-ukraine-request-to-shut-down-russian-websites/article65186421.ece https://www.thehindubusinessline.com/info-tech/icann-decline... But very unsurprising. [0] It really was expected to be rejected. I mean just look at this extremely weak 'reason' from [1]: > All of these measures will help users seek for reliable information in alternative domain zones, preventing propaganda and disinformation. Just like how RIPE [2] took a neutral stance, there would be no chance ICANN would bend and take a side in this either. [0] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30509849 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30509849 [1] https://pastebin.com/DLbmYahS https://pastebin.com/DLbmYahS [2] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30513540 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30513540

Proven 5y ago

sschueller 5y ago

I don't think cutting of Russia from the internet is a good solution at all. It will isolate them enough to allow the government to push an anti-western agenda. They need to see the misery of the war they are inflicting and the only way is via an open internet. Yes they will push their own propaganda to the west but we can deal with that. Fire-walling them off will result in the people not knowing what is going on. Just look how China is able to hide what happened at Tienanmen square. We can not allow Russia to run the narrative by cutting of the internet. We need our pictures and videos to reach them.

roody15 5y ago
Also vice versa. Although war propaganda is in full swing … there is a bit of truth on the Russian side about NATO encroachment since 1997
shabier 5y ago
I agree with you on that. Isolating them or ourselves from them will only trigger those who're already vulnerable to extremism to be become even more extreme.
- MaxGanzII 5y ago
  > or ourselves from them Russian media is purely State controlled and is preaching justifications for the invasion of Ukraine. This is not a free speech situation.
  - shabier 5y ago
    Oh please, the same happened in the US after 9/11, and we all rolled with it. Cut the free speech nonsense, we're (as in big tech) not enforcing it either.
    - lolinder 5y ago
      These moral equivalencies have to stop. The US didn't declare anti-war protests to be illegal and arrest 7000+ protesters in the course of the first week of the war in Iraq. The US didn't shut down independent media outlets that were opposed to the war. The US didn't block (nascent) web platforms that hosted anti-war discussion. The US media is often a propaganda arm of the government. The Russian government tries to ensure their propaganda is all you see. There's a massive difference.

core-utility 5y ago

This is an interesting approach to modern war. Let's say hypothetically the western countries (US, Canada, EU) go to war with eastern countries (Russia, China, North Korea). Western countries could levy a strong impact by pulling internet service. This may inadvertently help eastern countries by blocking Twitter, Tik Tok, etc. but would also mean that AliExpress and many eastern markets are immediately cut off from that supply chain. North Korea is a bad example here since they have little internet or trade, but included them anyways.

gruez 5y ago

See also, the maps from https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_reactions_to_the_2022_Russian_invasion_of_Ukraine https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_reactions_to_the... While most countries took a pro-Ukraine stance, there's a non-negligible amount of neutral countries. In particular are India and China. I'm sure they wont be very happy if IANA effectively breaks their internet connectivity to Russia.

MaxGanzII 5y ago
Russia has invaded Ukraine. It's like having a criminal break into your house. If my neighbours are unhappy with me taking action against that criminal - maybe they're friends with him - I'm not much inclined, in the situation, to have much sympathy.
- jokethrowaway 5y ago
  State actors, at some point, have all been criminals waging wars to further their goals using taxpayers' money. I hate all of them, but I wonder why wars in the middle east don't trigger sanctions and media attention and this invasion does.
  - edgyquant 5y ago
    [flagged]
    - samstave 5y ago
      But perspective is not. Try to not throw "whataboutism" at something where perspective is key.
      - edgyquant 5y ago
        Perspective isnt key, it was a pure whataboutism
        5y ago

netheril96 5y ago

The West is quick to abandon their own ideals. All the Western cutting ties with Russia has made most people I know (we are all Chinese) much more favorable towards the Great Firewall. If the West cut the ties with China, the damage is much less given that we are already in an effective LAN.

BeefWellington 5y ago
> The West is quick to abandon their own ideals. The response here would suggest the opposite.
- netheril96 5y ago
  The people here do not hold power. Those who do have abandoned the ideals.
MaxGanzII 5y ago
jacknews 5y ago
LOL, it's OK if they cut off our sunshine, because we're used to living in the dark anyway.
- olibhel 5y ago
  No country should be able to cut off anyone else's sunshine (or Internet). Internet, the western version of it, was not built and shared with the world with this disclaimer that we will cut it off if we feel like it. If ICANN kicks out a country, we'd very soon see the end of ICANN because other countries will have no trust left in the organization.
  - jacknews 5y ago
    I agree, it is a universal service that should be available to everyone under any circumstance. I'm just ridiculing the comment that said 'go ahead, we don't need it'.

shabier 5y ago

Regardless of how we feel about the current conflict between the countries, it is absolutely essential to keep the internet open and accessible to everyone, including those who we don't agree with.

MaxGanzII 5y ago
Consider; Russia is invading Ukraine. If they keep at it, they will win; the military balance is too much in their favour. Having conquered, they will then block out all content which carries truth and replace it with propaganda, just as it is in Russia. You argue we must keep the Internet open and accessable to Russia, both in this situation, and for it to be used in this way.
- simiones 5y ago
  No one on Earth could stop the Internet working inside Russia. The only thing that could be done, in principle, by ICANN and EU/US service providers is to block out all content coming in or out of Russia. This will have exactly the effect of blocking out all content which carries (EU/US) truth and replace it with (Russian) propaganda.
  - chinathrow 5y ago
    > No one on Earth could stop the Internet working inside Russia. Without physical intervention.
    - gorbachev 5y ago
      You're not going to get physical intervention on Russia <-> China connectivity.
  - varenc 5y ago
    > The only thing that could be done, in principle, by ICANN and EU/US service providers is to block out all content coming in or out of Russia I don't think this is true. The root DNS servers ICANN runs could stop handling requests for anything on the .ru/.su Russian TLDs. Though Russia runs the .ru servers internally, from ripn.net, there's still reliance on the root servers to point there. This would break Russian internal access to their own services. If you run `dig +trace government.ru` you can see your first query is to the various "*.root-servers.net" name servers. When I did this my queries went like this: A.ROOT-SERVERS.NET -> B.DNS.RIPN.NET -> NS2.GOV.RU That first step, contacting the centralized root servers, is where ICANN could have killed .ru domain lookups. (also my knowledge of DNS is shaky, so someone correct me if I'm wrong)

lessname 5y ago

I wonder how big thre effects were if somehow cloudflare or aws decided to stop serving to Russia (or another country).

shabier 5y ago
It wouldn't surprise me if AWS would do just that, given their history.
iso1631 5y ago
Russia blocked a lot of AWS back in 2018
helsinkiandrew 5y ago
Do you mean stopping internet traffic from Russia accessing websites hosted on Cloudflare/AWS or stopping Russian customers from hosting on Cloudflare/AWS services?

ukraineally 5y ago

You can't remove Russia from the internet unless you remove literally all their neighbours. Kazakhstan for example has how many links in and out of Russia? Do they not have the sovereign decision to make those connections? You can't just cut Russia off. I think the 1 decision that could be made by the Sanctioning countries... At the big tier 1 peering exchanges you could blacklist all of Russia. Don't have to worry about cyber attacks coming from Russia directly anymore.

shabier 5y ago
Cyberattacks are not limited to borders or geolocation- it can be sent/executed from anywhere at all times. And, like the letter mentioned, the request wasn't to "remove" Russia from the internet but rather restricting access to the routing towards Russian sites.
- ukraineally 5y ago
  >Cyberattacks are not limited to borders or geolocation- it can be sent/executed from anywhere at all times. And, like the letter mentioned, the request wasn't to "remove" Russia from the internet but rather restricting access to the routing towards Russian sites. Yes I know. That's why i said 'directly from', sure attacks will be proxied through bots or whatever.

sega_sai 5y ago

I obviously support Ukraine in their fight against invaders (and I am Russian born), but cutting the internet from Russia would be actually more useful for the Russian government than Ukraine. Russian government just today closed the last independent radio station, blocked the website of an independent tv station , so blocking the internet would just be applauded by the Russian state for doing what they wanted to do themselves.

_fat_santa 5y ago
Couldn't agree more with what you said here. I have split feelings on punitive punishments like this. I like many others have family in Russia, anytime you take a punitive measure like this, sure it may punish those responsible, but it's really just going to punish every day people that just want to contact their families. Russia getting cut off from financial services is also a huge problem for every day people with families there. Right when the Ruble collapses, we have fewer and fewer means of supporting our families over there. I get the why, we are trying to cut off Putin and the oligarchs at the knees, but it's sad that everyone else is getting swept up in it.
TameAntelope 5y ago
More importantly (IMO) I support ICANN. If they think it makes sense to cut off Russia from the Internet, I trust them. They don't think it makes sense, so I trust them. Do I think they made the right call? Yeah, but I'm a dum dum on the Internet who has thought about this for all of 5 minutes. There might be some better form of this argument that's more nuanced than I have time to understand, so I want to be able to leave it up to ICANN to figure stuff out like this and do what's best.
- Avalaxy 5y ago
  Be careful with that kind of reasoning. Appeal to authority is a fallacy that can bite you in the ass. Pretty sure many Russians trust Putin to make the right choices.
  - TameAntelope 5y ago

allisdust 5y ago

If ICANN took a side in this, then in a year there won't be an ICANN. There will be several miniCANNs catering to different countries (at least the large ones).

sAbakumoff 5y ago

Russia will cut itself from the internet in a couple of weeks, no need to worry.

helsinkiandrew 5y ago

> ICANN's rejection of Ukraine's request to sever Russia from the internet Isn't that headline patently false clickbait? The second paragraph: "You have asked that ICANN target Russia’s access to the Internet by revoking specific countrycode top-level domains operated from within Russia, arranging the revocation of SSL certificates issued within those domains, and shutting down a subset of root servers located in Russia."

TheJoeMan 5y ago
I do think there is a difference between "sever" and "disable Russian TLD's". Don't they collect a fee to create TLD's? And therefore are directly engaging in commerce with Russia?
- treesknees 5y ago
  To answer your question, no it's not a fee. According to the .ru ccTLD agreement documents [1], the "Coordination Center for TLD RU" (the entity which operates the .ru TLD) voluntarily agrees to pay to ICANN $30k USD annually. The document is worded that ICANN's obligation to continue letting them use it will cease if the payment isn't made, but it also states "this review will take into account all relevant circumstances." The way I read this is it's an agreement to donate per year to cover the infrastructure/overhead of ICANN, but doesn't state it's a contractual fee or payment _for_ the ccTLD. If I had to guess, if this payment does fall under sanctions/restrictions, that would be covered under "relevant circumstances" to which ICANN wouldn't just pull the rug out from Russia in the name of Internet stability. [1] https://www.icann.org/en/system/files/files/icann-ru-letters-25mar07-en.pdf https://www.icann.org/en/system/files/files/icann-ru-letters...

c7DJTLrn 5y ago

Maybe if Ukraine sends a bribe their way it'll happen. That's usually how things go with ICANN. But cutting Russia off from the Internet isn't a good idea.

foverzar 5y ago

Never thought I'd see the day when Russian "Sovereign RUnet" project would actually start making sence.

ianai 5y ago

Consider always the ramifications of defeat. If Russia shows nothing truly matters against them. If nuclear weapons are all anyone makes a decision based on then only nuclear weapons matter. Do you think China is watching this? Duh. Do you think that translates to further invasions? Duh. The barrel of options against Russia needs to be exhausted. The only way to stop a bully such as this is to hit them the hardest, most brutal way, earliest. Putin and anyone supporting him should have been routed in the early 2000s. This decision here is nothing short of appeasement.

shabier 5y ago
> The only way to stop a bully such as this is to hit them the hardest, most brutal way, earliest. Only if we had the same attitude against European countries or the US. It really seems like a one-sided stance most of the time. One of the few times that a European or US (allay) receives similar treatment as they dish out, they completely freak out, making outrageous demands or requests such as the one to ICANN. > The barrel of options against Russia needs to be exhausted. Strong disagree, we should just retaliate in any way just for the sake of it- that's just not effective. edit: formatting
- ianai 5y ago
  ICANN and the existence of the internet are products of sovereignty post-WWII and free economy. If you want your Disney+ then you must agree to the post WWII world. Putin and Russia are currently living out a bygone era in the modern day. The two are incompatible.
- dangerface 5y ago
  > Only if we had the same attitude against European countries or the US. It really seems like a one-sided stance most of the time. The Iraq invasion was unprovoked and unjustified we lied about our reasons for doing it if other countries stood up to us maybe we would have responded differently. I protested our government when we did what Russia is doing I haven't changed my position one inch, maybe no one else has, maybe other westerners are just trying to justify Russia in hopes it will some how justify US actions, it doesn't both countries are bullies and deserve the same response.

pcdoodle 5y ago

api 5y ago

This is a really terrible idea. It would make it much easier for Putin to control the narrative in his own country.

lmilcin 5y ago

I am Polish. When Polish people revolted against Soviets it was because we have seen better life was possible. It was exactly because we had access to alternate message. I don't think cutting off a country in a situation like that is helpful at all. If anything, it is making it easier for pro-Putin propaganda. I would also remind that Russia itself build capability to cut itself off from the Internet. Yes, we would be doing them a favour because right now they might hesitate to do it by themselves fearing backlash from people who do not care about politics or anybody else at all but do care about having Internet access.

dsabanin 5y ago

Ukraine needs help, they are getting desperate. Yes, they're standing and pushing back even, but Russians kill so many civilians... I don't think world can afford to watch how it's just being destroyed like this. Russian people are brainwashed and are under military occupation right now, they can't effectively overthrow this government. All the Putin's cronies are locked with him in a bunker, under complete control. This is a bad situation from all angles.

kingkawn 5y ago

The sanctions can backfire spectacularly, as they often do, leading to mass suffering and isolation for the populace, further radicalization of the leadership, and less reason for compromise as economic/cultural entanglements are severed.

jonsully 5y ago

Oof. This is definitely the right response. That would be a powerful, terrible precedent to set — one that could be catastrophic if turned toward a different country perhaps

hughrr 5y ago

Good. They need our views and we need their intelligence.

DoItToMe81 5y ago

ICANN should strive to be as neutral as it possibly can. Very glad they rejected this.

sdevonoes 5y ago

Still surprises me all the bans imposed to Russia. Never heard of such a thing with regards (to mention something recent) Israel attacks on Palestine. It is definitely one thing to attack a European country a total different one to attack some other third-world country.

matwood 5y ago
Every situation is unique, but if you really want to compare the two, the Israel/Palestine situation is closer to the territory in eastern Ukraine that has been contested for 7-8 years at this point. No one was banning Russia for that ongoing conflict. Heck, even the Crimea sanctions had been mostly lifted.
- pastacacioepepe 5y ago
  I Agree. The separatist republics of Donbass and Donetsk have been under attack from Ukraine for years. The Ukrainian army shelled residential areas and killed civilians in the complete indifference of the west. If we really want to force a comparison, Ukraine has behaved like Israel here. With the exception that in this case "Palestine" has a powerful friend on their side, Russia.
  - throwaway_4ever 5y ago
    > The separatist republics of Donbass and Donetsk Move along, this person has no idea what they're talking about except poorly mis-regurgitating Kremlin propaganda
    - dsugarman 5y ago
      Here is evidence of your conclusion that they are into Russian propaganda: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30514215 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30514215 If you read through their other comments, they are doing everything they can to spread pro-Russia misinformation throughout HN many times a day.

hogrider 5y ago

These guys have blood on their hands.

jokethrowaway 5y ago
Which country doesn't? Wasn't the USA "freeing" Iraq and Afghanistan until yesterday?

dangerface 5y ago

Russia has state sponsored hackers who's only goal in life is to ddos / disrupt / destroy the internet. Why would the internet entertain a country that has set its mind on destroying it? The only argument I see in comments is that letting Russian citizens get on VK is more important than allowing Ukrainian citizens to communicate and organise evacuations before the Russian tanks turn up. Are you all on crack or something?

Chris2048 5y ago

Why "cut them off" rather than mark all ru originating traffic with a specific header/tag? That way, consumers can decide whether to reject that traffic or not. I'd also support individual services extending this to e.g. tagging user accounts. That way you could: - mark posts in forums based on if they originated in ru i.e. better detection of Russian bots/shills in forums where Russian-based participation doesn't make a lot of sense. - firewall forums s.t. different groups of users cannot see each other.

lettergram 5y ago

The Russians want sanctions, they want UN officials walking out refusing to listen to diplomats. It makes the west look petulant and will only bolster the reason Putin gave publicly for starting the war. Russia has been preparing to be isolated for 15-20 years. They are largely self-reliant and have four massive trade partners in Brazil, China, Iran and India. Plus Germany needs their fuel and have no alternative. The more the west sanctions the worse it’ll be for the west and better it’ll be for Russia. Ultimately, the war is over. Russia supposedly wants an independent neutral country; I suspect they’ll take half the country and force the other half to be neutral.

breakfastduck 5y ago

Thank goodness for such a levelheaded response. Phew.

exabrial 5y ago

If we learned one thing from Corona pandemic, please take away that censorship make things worse, both public and private platforms.

compsciphd 5y ago

as I wrote elsewhere. removing the resolution of .ru isn't cutting them off from the internet. It just makes it much harder for them to spread their propaganda. Anyone in russia could still resolve www.cnn.com and the like. The only Q would be would Russia retaliate by going all china with a great firewall, thereby them actually severing themselves from the internet.

x86_64Ubuntu 5y ago
What propaganda has Russia been spreading outside of it's borders? At least in the Western media, all the propaganda has been pro-Western, with eventually-proven-false narratives dominating the scene such as the Ghost of Kyiv (a flight simulator) and the Snake Island massacre (they lived).

charonn0 5y ago

I get why ICANN doing this would have been a bad idea. On the other hand, Russian-language countries are a major source of malware and other serious cybercrimes.

amznbyebyebye 5y ago

Is Ukrainian request to cancel Russian Internet a Russian psyop to discredit Ukraine? How do we know the comments in this thread are not psyop in defense of Russia having internet access? Hard to know who to trust anymore.

deleted 5y ago

[deleted]

croes 5y ago

Russia threatens to block Wikipedia for covering the invasion, Ukraine is helping Russia by demanding that Russia be locked out of the internet so that Russians are completely at the mercy of Putin's propaganda. Crazy.

marcodiego 5y ago

I understand that it is possible to physically isolate a region from the internet. But, how can one do this 'logically'? Is there an international organization that can do so? How?

Mikeb85 5y ago

Nah should let them stay connected to the internet so they can see news from outside Russia. Should completely isolate them economically too. Not a single Russian should be able to receive a single dollar from anywhere outside the country until Putin is overthrown and they're out of Ukraine completely.

unmole 5y ago

Are they going to ask the ITU to revoke the +7 dialing code next? And then ask the UPU stop mail delivery to Russia?

whoopdedo 5y ago

ICANN won't do it. But an intermediary resolver, such as Quad9, can choose to drop requests it deems unsuitable. They do that all the time with domains connected to malware. Has anyone talked about doing that?

Andrew_nenakhov 5y ago

Right now I share a lot of media from Ukraine to show my russian contacts what is really happening over there in this unjust conflict. Good job Ukraine on helping Putin establish a monopoly on information spread in Russia.

rednerrus 5y ago

Information is the antidote to war. Don't cut it off.

Mo3 5y ago

> As you have said in your letter, your desire is to help users seek reliable information in alternative domain zones and prevent propaganda and disinformation. It is only through broad and unimpeded access to the Internet that citizens can receive reliable information and a diversity of viewpoints. /thread

UltraViolence 5y ago

The internet should remain a neutral communications platform. Once we start politicizing it the dream will die pretty quickly and we get segregated networks which don't interoperate or only though heavily policed gateways.

cphoover 5y ago

I think they made the correct decision here... These are the kind of foundational decisions that impact the direction of the internet as a whole. Starting a precedent for politicization is dangerous idea. I support fighting propaganda with better more believable information. Censoring information is not the answer.

tyrrvk 5y ago

I agree 100% with ICANN's position in this matter. I think their reply was level headed and correct.

phendrenad2 5y ago

Maybe we can kick ICANN off of the internet and switch to another provider. Nerds, make it happen.

benlivengood 5y ago

I think it's important to recognize that some things in the world are inherently individual-centric and cross all arbitrary political boundaries and the Internet has become one. Even during the world wars postal service and telegraph service was maintained, notably with censorship imposed. We don't fight genocidal wars in large part; the people communicating with each other across battle lines will still be friends, family, or coworkers when the war is resolved. War has changed significantly with modern communication and there aren't many wartime secrets any more; troop movements and logistics are readily seen from satellites and aircraft. It's arguable that censoring communication between countries at war has no practical war benefit. As a sanction it is also arguably not effective because as an example North Korea enforces extreme Internet censorship and this hardship on North Korean citizens does not meaningfully weaken the regime. If anything, maintaining open communication to combat propaganda is likely the most beneficial approach. There's a video circulating of a captured Russian soldier in Ukraine face-timing his mother in Russia which would have been blocked by severing Russia from the Internet, to what end? Further isolating and estranging neighbors and family during a time of extreme stress? Finding common shared humanity is always more important than tactical warfare because it usually obviates the need for continued warfare.

ipaddr 5y ago

Didn't America win the cold war because of cultural influence? Doesn't cutting Russia off also cut out that cultural influence. Does a side benefit come with a differently censored internet Russia provides where copyright is ignored?

qualudeheart 5y ago

Sanctions are necessary to hold back the steppe warlord sitting in the Kremlin. For humanitarian reasons we should make it easy for Russians to defect to the west if they want no part in what the Russian state is doing. I don’t want to economically hurt Russian civilians more than we really need to in order to save Ukraine.

TZubiri 5y ago

Nice try Ukraine.

shmerl 5y ago

Protesters and dissidents in Russia need Internet to fight against the dictator too.

aurizon 5y ago

Keep it open, broadcast Russia's shame(Putin and all Russians know it). Putin knows the knives are out for him. All visitors are searched and must have a chemical shower(I read, and I assume to stop contact nerve poisons) and he sits set apart from his guests by about 20 or so feet so a suicide bomber with a bomb in his abdomen. There were attempts to kill Hitler as his generals cam to know him as a loon of loons, that sadly failed back in the day. One can only hope his generals can persuade him or find an elegant path past his protections. I suspect he does not walk on any balconies facing Red Square either, he lost one of his generals to a sniper yesterday?

MauiWarrior 5y ago

Another ugly face of war. Paralympic ban: https://www.cnn.com/europe/live-news/ukraine-russia-putin-news-03-03-22/h_bf6877365680181968a7881b8faae5d8#:~:text=The%20International%20Paralympic%20Committee%20(IPC,Games%2C%20which%20begin%20on%20Friday https://www.cnn.com/europe/live-news/ukraine-russia-putin-ne....