42 ms·
American Airlines and The Points Guy are suing each other
- clircle 5y agoIs this different than what Plaid does with bank logins?
- chrismeller 5y agoI honestly don’t know who to root for here. TPG is one of my favorite sites, but American is one of my favorite airlines.
- ipaddr 5y agoProbably for openness regardless of how many peanuts American airlines gives you.
- chrismeller 5y agoPfft. They don’t offer peanuts anymore, even for Executive Platinum.
- easton 5y agoPretzels are still pretty good, although they won’t give them to you on short haul unless you’re in first.
- whatshisface 5y agoIf American loses you will get to keep both, so that's what you'd root for.
- samschooler 5y agoTPG 100%. If AA wins this, it means _in general_ it is possible to further limit programmatic access to content, you as a user, should have access as you see fit.
- sabujp 5y agoFavoritism should have aboslutely nothing to do with this. Public stuff on the internet should be exactly that, public. You have no expectation of privacy and it's up to you as an owner/operator to maintain the security of your site, make sure you aren't being dos'd, screen scraped (use strong captchas, validated accounts), etc.
- darkwizard42 5y agoYeah but this is about PRIVATE data like your miles and points after logging in to AA. So not even sure your comment applies here.
- Nextgrid 5y agoBut it's only accessing your private data with your authorization (by providing them your credentials). There is no hacking involved and it's not accessing people's information without consent.
- darkwizard42 5y agoI'm just responding to the claim of the parent comment that public stuff on the internet should remain public... This information is expressly NOT public, not sure why the expectation is that everyone should be able to see it.
- dghlsakjg 5y agoIt think you'll find that on page 47 of subparagraph 4 of the t+c you agreed to 27 years ago when you first flew on AA (since amended twice daily), that the data in question is in fact property of AA. In all seriousness, this is the crux of many of the issues on the internet: Data about you, or generated by your activities, is probably not your in a legal sense. In other words AA gives users a limited license to access AA data, and they are mad that you are allowing TPG to use that license. AA sees this as sharing your Spotify password to give them access to music.
- arwineap 5y agoI agree with your sentiment. This case is about data behind an auth screen, so it may not so easily fall under the definition of public stuff
- deleted 5y ago[deleted]
- misiti3780 5y agoWhat is so great of TPG? I have checked it out but I dont understand what is so useful about it?
- bastardoperator 5y agoYou have a favorite Airline? I view them all with contempt given their poor business practices. Who's your favorite serial killer?
- jrockway 5y agoI've flown over half a million miles on American. They've been pretty nice to me every time. I have nothing to dislike about them.
- bastardoperator 5y agoPretty nice isn't how I would describe great service. That's my point, the bar is low when it comes to airlines. In your case they should be treating you like a legend.
- jrockway 5y agoOne time I lost my keys and missed my flight, and they bumped some paying customer so I could get home sooner. Still feel a little bad about that one. Another time, I was walking out of the Admirals Club at DFW to board my flight. One of the agents came running out to tell me I was walking in the wrong direction. But, it's not always great. I had an award ticket in 1st class out of LHR, and they didn't clean the plane at all. The tray table had sticky soda all over it, and the plane was filthy. Miserable flight. Another time, I had an upgrade to 1st class on a domestic flight, but the TSA didn't like my bags and did an extensive check (I must have been on some list back then, it happened a lot). I arrived way late to the gate, and lost my seat. Ended up flying back home in a middle seat in the last row. It was miserable. So, it's a mixed bag, but generally good. It's hard for such a large company to offer consistency.
- bastardoperator 5y agoLOL, that other person was probably me, doh! It's fair, air travel comes with a lot of anxiety and heightened emotions because most people are going somewhere important or just trying to get home.
- cbtacy 5y agohttps://www.aa.com/i18n/customer-service/support/legal-information.jsp https://www.aa.com/i18n/customer-service/support/legal-infor... "Unless otherwise noted, all information, AAdvantage® account information, articles, data, images, passwords, Personal Identification Numbers ("PINs"), screens, text, user names, Web pages, or other materials (collectively "Content") appearing on the Site are the exclusive property of American Airlines Group, Inc., or American Airlines, Inc., or their subsidiaries and affiliates" "You may not copy, display, distribute, download, license, modify, publish, re-post, reproduce, reuse, sell, transmit, use to create a derivative work, or otherwise use the content of the Site for public or commercial purposes. Nothing on the Site shall be construed to confer any grant or license of any intellectual property rights, whether by estoppel, by implication, or otherwise." Seems pretty cut-and-dry to me.
- whatshisface 5y agoIt is cut and dry what they want, but the question is, do the terms give them merely the right to terminate your account... or to sue you?
- lp0_on_fire 5y agoThey have the standard boilerplate: " American Airlines also reserves the right in its sole and unfettered discretion to deny you access to the Site at any time. " "You agree that this Agreement is made and entered into in Tarrant County, Texas. You agree that Texas law governs this Agreement's interpretation and/or any dispute arising from your access to, dealings with, or use of the Site, without regard to conflicts of law principles. Any lawsuit brought by you related to your access to, dealings with, or use of the Site must be brought in the state or federal courts of Tarrant County, Texas. You agree and understand that you will not bring against American Airlines Group, Inc., American Airlines, Inc., or any of its affiliated entities, agents, directors, employees, and/or officers any class action lawsuit related to your access to, dealings with, or use of the Site."
- ashtonkem 5y agoIf I understand correctly, the enforceability of these TOS just added to the bottom of the page is uncertain. After all, I wasn’t forced to read and agree to the TOS on AA’s website like I am for say, Twitter or Facebook.
- yuy910616 5y agoI can't seem to find a reason why "screen scraping" is important here, as oppose to just scraping? My understanding is that screen scraping is taking a picture of the rendered website and using an OCR or some other sort of recognition tools to extract the data. If it is just scraping - it should be perfectly legal right?
- whatshisface 5y agoIt's against their ToS. The court is trying to decide what kind of a contract a ToS is. This will have implications for anyone writing software covered under a ToS... and anyone using it.
- GordonS 5y agoScreen scraping isn't exclusively about using OCR - it more usually means parsing text content from HTML.
- TameAntelope 5y agoWhat's the "screen" part of this, though? I guess if you have to render the page fully (execute the JS as well), rather than just parse the returned HTML, that to me is more "screen scraping" vs. "scraping".
- GordonS 5y agoNo idea where the name came from!
- paxys 5y agoWho says it is? This is about copying alleged proprietary and copyrighted content from a website. The technique used isn't really relevant.
- dancocos 5y agoThe airline industry has been through this before https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Web_scraping#United_States https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Web_scraping#United_States
- mitquinn 5y agoThe trademark/copyright stuff I get but I don't see how the screen scraping could be illegal.. How is it any different than a person logging in and writing it down manually..
- matheusmoreira 5y agoIt's not different in any way and definitely not immoral. Essentially it's "illegal" because it hurts corporate interests and they want to make it stop. Corporations have money and will just buy laws with lobbyists if they have to, it makes no sense to take this process seriously.
- im3w1l 5y agoI'm surprised that an affiliate marketing company is willing to get in such a fight. Like I would have thought everything they did was blessed and even paid for by airlines and credit cards.
- ceejayoz 5y agoThere may be a tension between AA and Citi, who provides the cards and likely shoulders the costs of the various signon bonuses and benefits out of their card revenue.
- throwaway_b04f 5y agoYears ago I (and a handful of other folks) had a meeting with some people from American who were thinking about opening up their data via an API. One of the other attendees said something to the effect of, "software developers are very, very good at removing inefficiencies when given data like this." It was delicately phrased but the subtext was clearly a warning: if your business depends on asymmetry, an API can sink you. I guess they took that warning to heart.
- e4e78a06 5y agoWhen you operate in a commodity business you want to impede the market's price discovery mechanism (in this case by making it harder for prices to be aggregated). The same issue and battle is playing out for US healthcare as well due to the recent rule forcing hospitals to make prices public.
- network2592 5y agoOpacity in price discovery as an objective in a commodity business is definitely an insightful framing of the issue. Although the airline industry can be considered a commodity industry, the airline rewards miles industry is less so. What those miles can get you, can essentially change at any time if the airline says so.
- enos_feedler 5y agoThis is true. Though one thing I've considered is that the front-end clients to the miles themselves have a balance of usability and inefficiency. They don't want everyone getting maximum dollar for their points. I would maybe so that giving data API access to the points tilts the $USD market price of what a point is worth in the favor of the consumer.
- network2592 5y agoAt the very least, data obfuscation obfuscates the shenanigans of a constantly asymmetrically redefined value store. TPG just highlights the shenanigans which puts pressure on airlines to change the value even more frequently. This in turn makes the shenanigans more apparent which might call for regulation. This lawsuit is attempting to nip this process in the bud before stumbling on regulation. But, fundamentally, the relationship is asymmetric regardless of any data api access.
- deleted 5y ago[deleted]
- listenallyall 5y ago"Illegal" is the headline is the wrong word here. There are no criminal proceedings, just a civil case. Breach of contract is all that is being alleged here.
- Nextgrid 5y ago> The interest was monetization of customer eyeballs, an American Airlines source shared that they wanted customers checking accounts at AA.com where they could be marketed to. It seems like so many problems, annoyances and inconvenience in modern society are artificially created/maintained just to enable this disgusting industry. Imagine how more efficient things could be if this cancer was eradicated once and for all.
- deleted 5y ago[deleted]
- smsm42 5y agoUnfortunately, like the real cancer, it has too many forms and too many causes to have a simple way of eradicating it. And unlike the real cancer, nobody is seriously investing into fixing it. Maybe some kind of paradigm shift is required to make the approach of "we hold data about you that you need hostage so we could sell you stuff and control your behavior" no longer acceptable. After all, you wouldn't accept if the car dealer would be the only one who had access to your car mileage or maintenance records, and would only tell you any information about it after you listened to the sales pitch. People would be grabbing torches and pitchforks if that happened. But for other businesses the same behavior is seen as OK.
- pixl97 5y ago>car dealer would be the only one who had access to your car mileage or maintenance records So yea, I have the next billion dollar idea. The gas gauge app. $3.99 a month to know how much farther you can travel. Also, we remove the gauge from inside the car.
- technothrasher 5y agoI wish I thought you were joking. With subscription services now needed to remotely start your car, we're almost there.
- bsenftner 5y ago
- icehawk 5y agoThe funny thing is, American sends points data to my email. I wonder if that sort of thing could be leveraged for something similar.
- chrischen 5y agoAward wallet parses these emails as a workaround to the legal threats.
- ceejayoz 5y agoDo it enough and they'll stop. All of my Amazon order emails now only tell me the order number and the total cost, with zero information on what products are included.
- oh_sigh 5y agoI wonder if Amazon was worried about companies like Google mining sales data from emails? Or something along those lines
- ceejayoz 5y agoProbably. Capital One has a tool called "Paribus" that, if you connect your email, will monitor and get refunds if prices drop or the item doesn't arrive on time. They used to do it with Amazon; they'd tell you something didn't come in the Prime two day shipping window and give you a pre-prepared complaint to get a free month of Prime as compensation. I can't imagine Amazon liked it much.
- fault1 5y agoI think this was precisely the issue.
- vineyardmike 5y agoShopify offers to track packages if you link your email, so i assume it could be related.
- lmeyerov 5y ago
- chrischen 5y agoThey do the same thing to Award wallet even though award wallet uses s browser extension to browse the website in your actual browser.
- TuringTest 5y agoThe web is broken. The original promise of client/server services was that the server would provide data on a universal open data format, and the USER AGENT (initially a web browser, but other kinds were expected) would process it in a format to the liking of the user, and satisfying their needs. Compare this to the current situation where the industry standard is that the servers do indeed provide data through somewhat standardized APIs, but the browser or native app is developed by the same vendor and serves their commercial interests, not those of the user as a customer. The only standard customization recognized to users is light theme / dark theme, and it has only started a few months ago.
- hypertele-Xii 5y agoThe customer is an advertizer. The humans browsing the web are the product being sold.
- TuringTest 5y agoYes, that's what caused it: turning it into a market instead of a library. When it was built by geeks, it was difficult to use but it was meant to serve people. Sellers turned "serving people" into that other meaning.
- smsm42 5y agoThe market is not the problem. The misaligned setup of the market, where the interests of the most of the consumers are misaligned with interests of those who produces or pays for the content, is the problem. Imagine a grocery store which is actually a money laundering front for mafia, so it's much more interested in looking like a grocery store than actually selling any groceries. Do you think they'd sell high quality goods? Would they have the best prices? Would their customer service be excellent? Now imagine the mafia bought all (or almost all) grocery stores in town and turned them into money laundering outlets. How is your grocery shopping experience now? That's what we're having with ads.
- judge2020 5y ago
- pmastela 5y agoGotta love Streisand Effect. I did not know TPG had an app, and now it’s on my Home Screen. Thanks, AA!
- smsm42 5y agoiphone only though. Apparently Android users aren't big enough market to bother.
- ceejayoz 5y agoJust be aware that TPG is often harmful to consumers; they often tout credit card deals for cards with better sign-on bonuses if you go directly to the issuer; they were touting a 60k Amex Gold bonus when you could just go to Amex directly for 75k. They exist to drive CC referral revenue; if they can't get referral revenue for a card, they won't promote it. I'm a much bigger fan of https://www.doctorofcredit.com/ https://www.doctorofcredit.com/ for this reason.
- lianna-vba 5y agoThat's a good point about awareness of sites with affiliate links. Doctor of Credit and https://www.frequentmiler.com https://www.frequentmiler.com are my top two, though there's overlap between them. Doctor of Credit has the best credit card, bank and brokerage sign up bonus lists and Frequent Miler has good point redemption guides.
- 5y ago
- enos_feedler 5y agoI wrote a scraper for Air Canada's aeroplan program a few years ago. I wanted to track my points in my own custom native app. I probably had $10,000 worth of points in my account. One day I logged in to find out my account had been deactivated on suspicions of fraud. After several lengthy phone calls with their team (including sending them the node.js script I was using), I was able to get my account restored. For the weeks it took to fix my account it was pretty frustrating. I just don't understand why you can't write a script that acts as your web user agent.
- lowercased 5y ago"agents" and "bots" were proposed as a thing of the future back in the 90s. "you'll have all these agents that can buy stuff for you and book travel and ..." but not if you write it yourself, apparently.
- enos_feedler 5y agoAnd they are still a growing thing in business with RPA. I guess consumers aren't allowed to access the technology afforded to enterprise employees.
- peterangular 5y ago> I guess consumers aren't allowed to access the technology afforded to enterprise employees. Lots of us built our own stacks and attempt to fly under the radar - things have gotten legally gray over the last two years and corporations have no problem sending their legal team to kick your door down for trivial stuff.
- PragmaticPulp 5y agoI’ve been on the other side of this, defending against bots. Basically: Well-behaved and well-intentioned scraping bots are rare. You’d get a lot of users setting update rates to 60 seconds that did a new login every time and creating as much traffic as 1000 users. Then they’d release the script for integration with something people and suddenly you have 1000 people each creating 1000 times as many login requests as a single user. Another common problem was forgetting to implement reasonable back off for failures. A lot of newbies write scripts that immediately retry on a tight infinite loop whenever something goes wrong, sending a huge stream of requests to your server if the API changes or when it goes down. Again, multiply this by many users sharing a script and it becomes a problem. Then of course there are people trying to make a business out of extracting your company’s data, such as putting it in some other website where they can serve ads over your content or whatever (think of all of those StackOverflow scraping websites in Google) Basically, you can’t investigate the motivations of each individual user. You just block them all.
- paxys 5y agoInteresting that AA frames it as TPG's app stealing confidential customer data, while it is the customer who set up the app and willingly provided their credentials in the first place. Will AA be able to find a single customer who has a problem with what TPG does? What is their case then exactly? Would they similarly sue the app if customers were copy pasting data into it, rather than accessing it programmatically? FYI the title is editorialized. This suit has nothing to do with screen scraping, but just data access in general. Services like these nowadays almost always use private APIs (built for mobile clients and SPAs) rather than parse HTML.
- nwiswell 5y ago> What is their case then exactly? That they're stealing AA's opportunity for, ahem, "customer engagement". They may have a case for tortious interference, I think? It does seem like an uphill climb. The strategy might just be to punish TPG with attorneys' fees and discourage this practice in the future.
- paxys 5y agoEvery similar case that has been litigated has been about wholesale copying of a large amount of content (e.g. millions of LinkedIn profiles, Craigslist listings, flight prices). In this case an individual customer authorized the access and only their data was affected. This is a pretty common use case for a large category of apps – think Mint, Plaid, all wallet apps which organize and track different accounts.
- sithadmin 5y agoAA and all other US airlines argue that information about your customer account is part of a data set that belongs to them, so they set the terms by which the data may be accessed. It's in their terms of service. This isn't particularly unique to airlines either.
- paxys 5y agoCan a company write "Chrome is not allowed to access this website" in their terms of service and then sue Google when customers still use it?
- friendlydog 5y agoIf it isn't search engines and news aggregators are illegal.
- lifeisstillgood 5y agodata yearns to be free
- BoysenberryPi 5y agoIf screen scraping is illegal just know that pretty much every budget and banking app is also illegal because they all use screen scraping.
- vineyardmike 5y agoPlaid and the like now have API agreements with many of the major US banks, and are cutting down on their scraping usage (because its obviously unsustainable).
- BoysenberryPi 5y agoI would like to know who "the like" include because as far as I know it's just Plaid and maybe Intuit doing this. Until banks provide APIs directly to developers this just gives Plaid a monopoly. All devs who want to make finance apps securely have to go through Plaid.
- floatingatoll 5y agoSee also yesterday's FP, about a court's ruling on HTML post-processing once it reaches the user: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29989927 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29989927 Plaid could file a friend-of-the-court brief here, since they have (presumably!) strong legal grounds to assert that they are legally within their rights to scrape bank websites, as they're doing so as an authorized user-agent, and since browsers are just user-agents, etc.
- celestialcheese 5y agoA bit of an aside - but does anyone here have experience with insurance policies that would actually cover legal defense in a case like this? Would Tech E&O cover something like this, or are there riders that would need to be added? It seems like something that could be strongly defended, and Red Ventures (TPG owner) is a large conglomerate so I doubt legal funds is an issue.
- supercanuck 5y agoOne thing that has changed in the airline industry that wasn't the case when the points guy started, is that the Airline Frequent flier miles are worth more than the actual airline themselves making the airlines essentially banks. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ggUduBmvQ_4 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ggUduBmvQ_4
- alistairSH 5y agoWhy the headline editorialization? "Is screen scraping illegal" isn't in the article headline and scree-scraping isn't mentioned by name. And this case doesn't appear to be generic screen-scraping of a public site, as TPG was using customer credentials to log-in and retrieve info (with permission). The lawsuit is about breach of site T&C.
- gowld 5y ago"Airline miles" are like cryptocurrency -- a fake currency used to run scams. They should be regulated as such.
- anon3970970 5y agohttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trespass_to_chattels https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trespass_to_chattels
- mkl95 5y agoI used to work at what was basically a microservice shop for airlines. The amount of dark shit those apps get away with is amazing.
- balls187 5y agoI can't see how American Airlines will prevail in preventing screen scraping. At best, they can prevent their point data from being transmitted and stored to TPG's servers. Screen Scraping is essentially interacting with the DOM extract information. American Airlines can't conceivably attempt to limit programmatic interaction with the DOM because that is a core component of how the web works including accessibility tools such as screen readers, and browser plugins/extensions.
- jrockway 5y agoI wouldn't put it past the court system to make web browsers ("user agents" as we called them back in the day) illegal accidentally. I'd be more surprised if they didn't, honestly.
- balls187 5y ago> I wouldn't put it past the court system to make web browsers I agree. My faith would be upon appeal or enforcement, such a ruling would get overturned, or dismissed.
- KieranMac 5y agoAs an attorney who focuses in this area, I can say that the most interesting question is first where this case will be decided. Texas, and the Northern District of Texas in particular, has historically been the worst jurisdiction in the country for web scrapers to litigate. Southwest has a long history of litigating successfully there, including two cases from just last year. If TPG is going to win, first they'll need to win the jurisdictional question of whether the case will be decided in Delaware or Texas.
- hlbjhblbljib 5y agoI'm surprised more businesses don't ban all of Texas as customers to prevent any litigation happening there.
- artificial 5y agoBusinesses sue? Blame customers! In order to save the village we had to destroy the village! There needs to be some massive reforms, especially with copyright.
- paxys 5y agoBanning the second largest user base in the country isn't usually a good business strategy
- rhizome 5y agoIt's funny how regionalism pops up on the internet. Thing is, it's less than 10% of the country (and surely not all of those 29MM are on the internet), and there are other businesses surviving just fine foregoing a TAM of the whole country.
- ksdale 5y agoHow can you be so sure it's not regionalism that's causing you to dismiss nearly 10% of one of the largest, richest countries in the world as inconsequential?
- rising-sky 5y ago"Partly" reminds me of LinkedIn's case against hiQ > The LinkedIn dispute arose out of hiQ’s use of automated bots to scrape massive amounts of information from publicly available LinkedIn user profiles. Thus far, lower courts have sided with hiQ on grounds that certain information on the site is publicly available and could be accessed by the public without entering a password. [1] There are similarities, however, different context in that in hiQ's case, information was publicly available, but in TPG's case the owner of that data (the AA customer) is providing them access to the data. The customer could just as well copy / download / screenshot the data, etc, and transfer it to TPG, obviously most people wouldn't bother, so that should be the core of the argument here. Is a user allowed to make their data available to a third-party? Screen-scraping is a means to an end [1] https://news.bloomberglaw.com/us-law-week/supreme-court-scraps-linkedin-data-scraping-decision https://news.bloomberglaw.com/us-law-week/supreme-court-scra...
- tomohawk 5y agoIt doesn't matter if it is illegal. The process is the punishment in the US. Unlike every other OECD country, the US does not have the English Rule. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/English_rule_%28attorney%27s_fees%29 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/English_rule_%28attorney%27s_f...
- KieranMac 5y agoSomeone asked "what is their case, exactly?" American Airlines is alleging 12 legal claims: 1. Breach of Contract 2. Tortious Interference with a Contract 3. Unfair Competition by Misappropriation 4. Trespass 5. Trademark infringement 6. Dilution 7. Dilution under Texas State Law 8. False Designation of Origin 9. Copyright Infringement 10. CFAA 11. Violation of Texas Harmful Access by Computer Act 12. Unjust Enrichment
- smsm42 5y agoI wonder if other services like Mint, Yodelee etc. also do scraping? It seems to be the same model there as TPG/AA - a company has user data, but the user wants the data in some other place, so they authorize a third-party to extract the data and represent it in a different place. Most banks now are begrudgingly coming to terms with this being a thing, some going as far as providing OAuth-like read-only APIs to aggregators. Some are trying hard to not let that happen, and some just ignore the issue and let the aggregators scrape. But an actual case decision in this matter could change the picture - and make financial aggregator business so much harder if it's going a wrong way.
- bredren 5y agoThis question about whether a consumer has a right to enjoy access to information or already paid for services without being advertised to is being tested in businesses everywhere. Streaming services insert ads for other original content when you hit play. The grocery store has audio and video advertisements for prepare meals playing on loop you can not avoid if you walk past the meat department. The problem is a race to the bottom on the pricing consumers perceive, and then recovering that money by squeezing every possible touch point. People have to have enough options to choose a company that doesn’t have to make these compromises.
- jmacd 5y agoHow is this any different than Plaid? How has Plaid managed to avoid a lawsuit like this?
- kylehotchkiss 5y agoIt's so funny you post that today! I just got this settlement email about Plaid: > A Settlement has been proposed in class action litigation against Plaid Inc. (“Plaid”). Plaid enables connections between a user’s financial account(s) and approximately 5,000 mobile and web-based applications (“apps”). This class action alleges Plaid took certain improper actions in connection with this process. The allegations include that Plaid: (1) obtained more financial data than was needed by a user's app, and (2) obtained log-in credentials (username and password) through its interface, known as Plaid Link, which the litigation alleges had the look and feel of the user’s own bank account login screen, when users were actually providing their login credentials directly to Plaid. Plaid denies these allegations and any wrongdoing and maintains that it adequately disclosed and maintained transparency about its practices to consumers.
- nunez 5y agoThey also went after AwardWallet and told them to shut it down. Y'all, think of the poor servers! They can't handle the traffic!!! /s
- FastFinTech 5y agoex-RV employee - it's a powerhouse of data for every significant moment in your life - from health to utilities to mortgage and everything in between. I personally don't see anything wrong on with this specifically.