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Toyota owners have to pay $8/month to keep using their key fob for remote start

• deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
• Karsteski 5y ago
  Sigh... While I look forward to having an electric car someday, the trend in new cars does not look promising. Far too many instances of car companies having too much control, because of the advent of internet-connected vehicles. Is there a solution to this? I don't know. Especially because I can see legislation cementing these sorts of practices in very much convoluted ways. One can only hope competing car brands emerge whose competitive advantage is along the lines of "Your car, you can do whatever the fuck you want with it".
  • shiftpgdn 5y ago
    I have both a new electric Audi and new Tesla. In either car I can just remove the sim and it'll completely disable all of the internet based features. A lot of the FUD around new cars is spread by grumpy old automotive journalists.
    • Karsteski 5y ago
      If you were to remove the sim card, would that void your warranty with either of those manufacturers? If so, that is not a long term solution, unfortunately.
      • shiftpgdn 5y ago
        No. They just stop calling home to the mothership. My Audi actually had a faulty sim module for a few months until I had time to get it fixed and other than not being able to check the charge status while away from the car it didn't really bother me.
    • foobarian 5y ago
      > In either car I can just remove the sim For now!
    • luma 5y ago
      Does this impact your access to Tesla services or charging infrastructure? Can you still supercharge?
      • shiftpgdn 5y ago
        As far as I know yes you can still supercharge. The only thing I lose is the ability to remote control the car when out of bluetooth range as well as all the map & streaming features.
      • darknavi 5y ago
        Should be able to supercharge. It communicates with the charger over the charging cable to tell it what account to charge. You might lose access once you're on old enough software though.
    • jen20 5y ago
      What happens when they (inevitably) move to eSIM?
      • shiftpgdn 5y ago
        The Audi has a "cellular off" option in the MMI. I'd have to dig into the Tesla to verify.
      • anakaine 5y ago
        Remove the antenna, or break the wire trace antenna.
        • rabuse 5y ago
          "Just void your warranty with this simple trick!"
    • petre 5y ago
      Wait until they put in eSIMs. Those you can probably disable as well but with a different level of expertise. Or you can damage the antenna or just stick aluminium foil tape onto it.
  • lvs 5y ago
    The idea that a car would automatically download an update that changes how something on the car works is insanity. I'm not buying a car with that "feature."
    • r00fus 5y ago
      That ship is departing as we speak [1] - that article was from 3 years ago. I'm sure it's worse now. BMW was definitely ahead of it's time charging a service fee for enabling AndroidAuto/CarPlay (among other car features). https://www.consumerreports.org/automotive-technology/automakers-embrace-over-the-air-updates-can-we-trust-digital-car-repair/ https://www.consumerreports.org/automotive-technology/automa...
    • mavhc 5y ago
      The idea that a computer would automatically download an update that changes how something on the computer works is insanity. I'm not buying a computer with that "feature."
  • caymanjim 5y ago
    I'd like to get a Tesla, but I won't, because you can't own a Tesla. You can only pay licensing fees to be the user, and Tesla can modify or disable the car at their whim, while also tracking and recording your every motion. We need lawmakers who actually care about privacy and ownership rights.
    • MeinBlutIstBlau 5y ago
      When I worked in mortgages in a previous career, we had a presenter talk to us about Private Mortgage Insurance (PMI). Back in the day, banks by default would just tack it on as an extra insurance for them in case you were to default. You're basically paying insurance against yourself to cover the banks losses. Once it was added, it was basically permanent for the life of the loan. Then one day, a senator I think from Utah was asking about his his costs after signing. The bank explained to him that it was PMI and he couldn't remove it. Thanks to that situation, PMI cannot be enforced if the loan to value ratio is below a specified threshold and the banks cannot force it on you if you meet that threshold prior to closing or after you reach it. In a nutshell, this is what needs to happen before a lawmaker bothers.
      • xwdv 5y ago
        This is why it’s important for many of the software engineers from hackernews to consider a career in politics after reaching a certain level of wealth and seniority in their career. If some of the greatest minds in the tech industry can rise to positions of power in government we can build a better world the way we know it should be, rather than hoping decrepit politicians come around to good ideas eventually.
      • greedo 5y ago
        Unfortunately, most businesses will only react to three things; stuff that makes them money, stuff that costs them money, and laws that are enforced effectively. Look how hard Apple is fighting against allowing alternative payment systems for apps. And against Right to Repair. Yet they start to budge a bit when lawmakers make them feel uncomfortable, or even pass laws (though most of Congress isn't really interested in the legislative side of the job.)
  • Faaak 5y ago
    There are many electric cars on the market that are just plain "old" cars: hyundai ioniq, renault zoe, peugeot e-208, etc... No subscription and they work quite well.
    • nicce 5y ago
      But they are practically useless outside of cities. No range so they are not an option.
      • notJim 5y ago
        They're not great for long roadtrips, but they would be fine for weekend or short trips to places with charging. For example, from where I live to the coast is about 80 miles, and many of the coastal cities have at least L2 and some L3 charging. This would be fine with many of these cars. You might not need to charge at all with some of them.
        • nicce 5y ago
          My scenario might be a bit extreme, but closest food store is 40 miles away. Closest charger is 200 miles away. (Talking from Europe) Visiting my parents take 300 miles trip (one direction), and requires charging stop. And this is considered here as relatively normal driving trip. And in winter, the range drops significantly. It is 7 month winter here. Why would I buy a car which is useful only for short weekend trips when there are better options available?
          • notJim 5y ago
            "It's not useful in my specific scenario, which I acknowledge is extreme, therefore the cars are useless outside cities." Not everything has to work for everyone in every situation to be useful. These cars are perfectly useful for many people, including outside cities.
            • nicce 5y ago
  • jjtheblunt 5y ago
    I've been driving a 2014 BMW i3 ev for 7+ years; it works great, but has about 100mile range, since it's using smaller batteries. I wish it WERE internet connected: for BMW to update the maps of the nav system can (supposedly) only be done at the BMW dealer, costs something like $180 for the map updates (North America), and requires a two day stay at the dealer, with associated labor-time fees. BMW is just a laughable Big Money Waste.
    • rabuse 5y ago
      I own a BMW also. Will never own one again after the maintenance nightmare they are.
      • crackercrews 5y ago
        Does this apply to their EVs as well?
  • xtracto 5y ago
    I love and work every day in computers, but I like my consumer electronics as dumb as they can be. I just need to complete a joke of "I like my electronics as my XXXX: dumb as a rock"
  • solididiot 5y ago
    Yeah. We've had the same hopes for mobile phones and at best you can hope for makes that do not overload their models with their own sh1tware on top of Android.
• egberts1 5y ago
  One less car to shop for. scribbling out Toyota (heading out to the delearships, non-Toyota, that is.)
  • elil17 5y ago
    Unfortunately they are the only ones with anything decent when it comes to reliability. Even Honda doesn’t come close to Prius reliability anymore.
  • mavhc 5y ago
    Toyota was never an option as they failed at electric cars
    • loudmax 5y ago
      FWIW, my 2019 plug-in Prius has worked out well for me. It has a little over 25 mile electric range, and when the battery is out it switches to gas. My commute to the office is short so I can make it to work and back on a single charge, and if I happen to need to make a detour I just burn a little gas. The caveat here is the short commute. If my commute were significantly longer the 25 mile electric range wouldn't amount to much and the weight of the empty battery would negate its benefits. Of course none of this justifies an $8 monthly charge for basic functionality, which is frankly outrageous. I have no intention of subscribing to this service.
      • mavhc 5y ago
        They invented the completely BS term Self Charging Hybrid, so they're evil by definition.
• paulkrush 5y ago
  If this keeps up, some used cars will have a higher value than new ones. People will have to break EULAs to drive cars in mines or buildings with no radio access. "Error: please tow your car to an RF access area to enable movement..."
  • Syonyk 5y ago
    > If this keeps up, some used cars will have a higher value than new ones. That's already the case with construction equipment and farm equipment[0]. Right now, used cars often have a higher or near-new value because you can get one today - a new car, at MSRP, may be 6+ months wait, which doesn't help if your car just got totaled. But, yes, everything is doubling down on toxic dystopian surveillance systems, subscription systems, and it's damned near the only option left anymore. I'm not sure what I'm going to do when the current fleet of vehicles needs rotating, because in 10 years when I plan to buy something newer, I'm not sure if anything won't be simply toxic. My car doesn't need a cell connection, sorry... [0]: https://www.thedrive.com/news/31761/enormous-costs-of-new-tractors-drive-demand-of-40-year-old-equipment-to-all-time-highs https://www.thedrive.com/news/31761/enormous-costs-of-new-tr...
    • MeinBlutIstBlau 5y ago
      I had to wait 2 months before my car was available that I just bought. The difference between a 2022 and a 2018, was $3k. So to prove your point, the used market is doing so well, they can sell them for basically MSRP if they aren't too old padded with a warranty you'll likely never use.
    • themaninthedark 5y ago
      “The Encyclopedia Galactica defines a robot as a mechanical apparatus designed to do the work of a man. The marketing division of the Sirius Cybernetics Corporation defines a robot as "Your Plastic Pal Who's Fun to Be With. The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy defines the marketing devision of the Sirius Cybernetic Corporation as "a bunch of mindless jerks who'll be the first against the wall when the revolution comes,” Sometimes I wonder if anyone in the meetings that decide these things ever have the moment of realization that "We are the baddies"
• cm2187 5y ago
  Coming to Smart TV remote controls soon!
  • donmcronald 5y ago
    It's only half a joke though. I have a Roku TV where they didn't bother putting some of the advanced picture controls in the OSD. You have to use an app instead. Guess what? The app doesn't work on my Android phone and I wouldn't be able to adjust picture settings on my TV if I didn't have an iPad to use instead. What happens if they turn that app into a subscription service because they don't like the cost of maintaining it? I'm pretty cynical and I didn't even consider the possibility of needing an app to control my TV when I bought it. Now I know to watch out for it, but device manufacturers aren't exactly going out of their way to advertise cost cutting measures that make you dependent on something you have no control of (ie: apps).
• zeroflow 5y ago
  That is just bullshit. A $8/mo charge for a app based remote start? I could live with that. Servers need power, the app needs updates etc. A $8/mo charge for something which does not incur costs for Toyota? Hell no. It seems like bit by bit - every single industry is going down a fucked up route. TVs with built in ads? Cars with pay-by-month features? DRM locked coffee machines? I really hope, there is some sort of evil-bullshit-corp ranking homepage.
  • dannyphantom 5y ago
    >... TVs with built in ads?... Hah, I have an Amazon Fire TV, not the stick, the actual TV. So...built in ads...huzzah... the UI on the TV has gotten progressively worse.
  • p0wn 5y ago
    [flagged]
    • pfortuny 5y ago
      It is as much capitalism as usury is interest: a false version.
      • gaganyaan 5y ago
        Given the history of the word, it's exactly the meaning of capitalism: > Meaning "political/economic system which encourages capitalists" is recorded from 1872, originally used disparagingly by socialists. https://www.etymonline.com/word/capitalism https://www.etymonline.com/word/capitalism
        • AnimalMuppet 5y ago
          There's a difference between "capitalist" and "rentier", though. These people are rentiers, not capitalists.
          • 5y ago
• paulkrush 5y ago
  The joy of AAAS! (Automobiles as a Service)
• lkozma 5y ago
  was posted here sometime ago: The door refused to open. It said, "Five cents, please." He searched his pockets. No more coins; nothing. "I'll pay you tomorrow," he told the door. Again he tried the knob. Again it remained locked tight. "What I pay you," he informed it, "is in the nature of a gratuity; I don't have to pay you." "I think otherwise," the door said. "Look in the purchase contract you signed when you bought this conapt." In his desk drawer he found the contract; since signing it he had found it necessary to refer to the document many times. Sure enough; payment to his door for opening and shutting constituted a mandatory fee. Not a tip. "You discover I'm right," the door said. It sounded smug. From the drawer beside the sink Joe Chip got a stainless steel knife; with it he began systematically to unscrew the bolt assembly of his apt's money-gulping door. "I'll sue you," the door said as the first screw fell out. Joe Chip said, "I've never been sued by a door. But I guess I can live through it." (Philip K. Dick: Ubik)
  • goda90 5y ago
    It's either micro-transactions, or mandatory ads: https://old.reddit.com/r/assholedesign/comments/rcka8s/new_chinese_toilet_paper_dispenser_requires_you/ https://old.reddit.com/r/assholedesign/comments/rcka8s/new_c...
    • irrational 5y ago
      Or do without.
      • Loughla 5y ago
        In terms of the remote start, yes, you can do without. But how long until BASIC functions become subscription service? Like electronically locking doors, or some other such nonsense? Once money finds a path, my belief is that the path gets widened.
        • NikolaNovak 5y ago
          Exactly; as well, in some situations (cold Canadian Winter with an infant etc), remote start is higher priority than remote doors, or electric windows, etc. "Basic" function vs "Luxury" can get awfully relative awfully fast...
• klipklop 5y ago
  The solution is to vote with your wallet. These days consumers are pretty weak willed though and are willing to put up with almost any level of abuse for their shiny new toy. Look at what consumers are willing to (overpay) for during the pandemic as an example of that. $500 NVIDIA graphics cards going for $2000... Eventually people fed up with it will "jailbreak" their cars like the farmers did with John Deere tractors. Then people might face legal action or maybe even jail just to drive their cars as intended. Fun future.
  • taurusnoises 5y ago
    I'm not so sure about the whole "conscious capitalism" approach these days. Subscription economies have basically killed that complicated form of activism.... https://bobdoto.computer/Conscious-Capitalism https://bobdoto.computer/Conscious-Capitalism
  • black_puppydog 5y ago
    Actually it isn't. There are tons of examples of whole industries just switching to user-/customer-hostile practices/products, meaning there's simply no more way to vote with your wallet. Happened like that with even trivial things like the milk market in Germany. Within a year or two, fresh milk had suddenly all but vanished from the shelves. Once pay-for-fob becomes the norm, good luck trying to enter that market with the pitch "well we give you the fob for free". It's hard enough for a venture like Tesla, which has some serious technological upside. This? Not so much. Edit: another nice example would be news. Good luck finding a news outlet that's willing to let you pay a moderate fee in exchange for a truly ad & tracking free experience that actually covers your reading needs. Seems like a market gap, no?
    • daxuak 5y ago
      I digress but what happend to the milk market? Could you post a reference?
      • bckygldstn 5y ago
        I can't find a good reference for the German market specifically, but in some countries/regions most milk is ultra-pasteurised and unrefridgerated: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ultra-high-temperature_processing#Worldwide_use https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ultra-high-temperature_process...
• influx 5y ago
  BMW tried to add a subscription for iOS CarPlay. Seems they had enough backlash that they canceled it. Total bullshit they would even try that.
  • FredPret 5y ago
    I decided that day to never consider BMW. If they can do it once they can do it again
  • jjtheblunt 5y ago
    BMW wants something like $180 to update the maps in my 2014 i3, and a couple days stay in the service shop to be sure blah blah blah. Nope.
• yumraj 5y ago
  Actually this is fantastic for someone like me - assuming there are no security holes of course. I don't want my next car to have remote start or remote anything. If not paying the subscription allows me to make sure that that feature is not enabled, it's great news, for me. Of course, different people have different preferences and needs.
  • jgust 5y ago
    The reality is that it's probably still there, you just don't have access to it.
  • ptudan 5y ago
    It's definitely still there. If you're worried about hackers etc, they can surely bypass this control if they've bypassed everything else.
    • yumraj 5y ago
      I fully understand, that is why I noted: assuming there are no security holes Ideally there should be a hardware switch :)
    • QuotedForTruth 5y ago
      "Im in! Wait! $8/month?! Go get mom's credit card"
  • freedomben 5y ago
    Whether you pay or not the car will have the capability and it will dutifully ask the home server what it should do. Toyota will still be able to see exactly where you, what you're doing, and be able to unlock/start your car whenever they want. you just won't be able to.
    • kevin_thibedeau 5y ago
      Not with the antennas removed.
• sas224dbm 5y ago
  A.R.S.E. Automated Remote Start Enrollment
• jscheel 5y ago
  My Lexus (owned by Toyota) costs more than that per month, iirc. I refuse to pay it.
• Someone1234 5y ago
  And the toxic trend of corporate short-term-ism continues... This is clearly set up as a gotcha with a 3 year/10 year "trial" included, then suddenly $80(!) a year. The irony is that both periods are right around the time different demographics start to consider a new vehicle, and Toyota has just pulled this nonsense. You may be thinking $80/year isn't so bad if it includes breakdown coverage/SOS button, but you'd be mistaken. The $80/year is ONLY for their "Remote Connect" service (app stuff, remote lock/unlock/start and notifications), you also need to pay another $80/year for "Safety Connect" (breakdown, SOS, stolen vehicle location), "Wi-Fi Connect" starting at $420/year for 2GB, and "Destination Assist" for $80/year. So you could be paying $660 per year OR MORE for your Toyota vehicle subscriptions alone. edited/fixed: "per year" now, instead of a confusing mix of per month and per year. Also, originally miscalculated the per year total and mislabelled it on top (was "$275 per month" which is double-wrong).
  • jhenkens 5y ago
    Yeah - it's infuriating. I think you meant to be 240/yr for services, plus 35/mo for data, but the point still stands. Keyfob remote start should not be gated on cell-related packages. Additionally, $8/mo should cover remote connect + safety connect. Honestly, all these features should be "free", provided you can provide a data connection, IMHO. The hosting cost must be negligible compared to the other costs Toyota has. Toss in a IoT sim of your choice, and that's that. I don't use Google Fi, but they provide free data-only SIMs on their unlimited plans. Could pop one in the car, and then have the vehicle-based hotspot enabled anytime you drive. Presumably the car has a slightly better antenna (though likely outdated) than a phone.
  • deleted 5y ago
    [deleted]
  • kristjansson 5y ago
    Surely its $51/month (8 + 8 + 35)? Not that that isn't outrageous, but it's not 275/month outrageous
    • bigwavedave 5y ago
• forinti 5y ago
  Honda charges something like US$15 for a CR2032 for the key fob. The person who was dealing with my car was too embarrassed to charge me, so I got it for free. Still, it makes me want to rethink my relationship with Honda. It seems that Toyota might not be the way either.
  • xxs 5y ago
    If they were half smart they'd have used cr2016 instead. Slimmer!
  • graton 5y ago
    Well are they installing the CR2032 battery in the key fob for that price. If so that will probably require a 5-10 minute transaction in order to sell and install the battery. Not making much money on that. Now if it is just the battery, it is a high mark-up. Though looking at Target they charge $6.50 for a two-pack.
  • jacobbudin 5y ago
    Honda charges $15, or your local dealership charges $15? Given cars are selling well above MSRP these days, I don't think manufacturers dictate fixed prices to dealerships.
• tomp 5y ago
  I read a quote once, paraphrasing: > geek will figure out cars before car people figure out computers Between this and similar issues (e.g. Porsche / BMW charging subscription to their updating map data), it’s clear how true that quote was. Not only are they massively losing to Tesla, they don’t even know they’re losing, or why. This is what you get when you hire MBAs and consultants.
• rajbot 5y ago
  My Volvo has a remote start option, but it costs $200/year to subscribe to the Volvo On-Call service to be able to use it.
  • tehwebguy 5y ago
    I added an app-enabled remote start to a car years back. First few years were included. Then $80 or $10 / year after that. The fob still worked after I canceled though, super wack that Toyota would burn a feature that clearly doesn’t rely on the web.
  • alkonaut 5y ago
    I think they lowered it quite substantially, at least now mine is around $40, which is much more reasonable.
• more_corn 5y ago
  This is bullshit. I will never own a car that does that (or a car from a company that does that). I recommend everyone here also refuses to abide such behavior. Vote with your wallet. If you don’t fight back against the dystopia you hate, you’ll get it by default.
• exabrial 5y ago
  Other than a Tacoma, no reason to buy a Toyota.
  • timeon 5y ago
    I would prefer old Yaris.
    • timbit42 5y ago
      That's called an Echo.
• new_guy 5y ago
  Related: Safety as DLC? Motorcycle Airbag vest will not deploy if you miss a payment https://linustechtips.com/topic/1335312-safety-as-dlc-motorcycle-airbag-vest-will-not-deploy-if-you-miss-a-payment/ https://linustechtips.com/topic/1335312-safety-as-dlc-motorc...
• 908B64B197 5y ago
  If this was pitched to me at the dealership I'd just laugh at the salesman's face and leave. Or get all the add-ons "forever for free" as part of the sale. This makes (any) brand look incredibly cheap. However, If someone wants to sell me Car as a SaaS, I'm interested. By that, I mean as soon as there's an issue with the car, I simply flag it in the App and an employee comes to my place and swap it over for the same model/trim (transfers whatever I have in the trunk too). Then I just keep using the replacement car until either I stop using the service or it has an issue or is due for maintenance.
  • itsoktocry 5y ago
    >Or get all the add-ons "forever for free" as part of the sale. This all the way. People seems to be intimidated of car shopping, but if you have financing in place (or cash), you are in such a position of power you can pretty much get anything thrown in. Try it. By the time they say no it'll be because you're eaten all their margins; they are a business after all.
    • BHSPitMonkey 5y ago
      Assuming the manufacturer creates such a mechanism for dealers to offer at all.
    • rainbowzootsuit 5y ago
      My limited experience and what I've heard on the internet: it's better not to let on that you are paying cash or outside financing as the dealers make money on the financing and will sometimes give a lower sales price due to that. Pull the cash out after the deal is agreed upon.
• YetAnotherNick 5y ago
  I don't know how could anyone think it is a good move inside toyota. $8 falls in the range that it is irritating for consumers yet the lifetime revenue per car is probably 1% of the average car value(5 year lifetime with 2 years free means $250 lifetime revenue). Is it worth it for 1% increase in revenue.
  • lowbloodsugar 5y ago
    Right? I'm in the market for a new SUV and I just took Toyota's off my list.
    • petre 5y ago
      Subaru is doing it as well.
      • stvsu 5y ago
        Yup. Subaru offers remote start via an app at $75 for the first 3 years when you buy a new car, but it renews at $300 (prepaid for 3 years) after that. Ridiculous
  • brewdad 5y ago
    I have no idea what Toyota's margins are like at the manufacturing level but it's not uncommon for dealers to only make a few hundred dollars profit on the sale. $250 of additional lifetime revenues could be quite significant.
    • lotsofpulp 5y ago
      ~6% to 7% https://www.macrotrends.net/stocks/charts/TM/toyota/profit-margins https://www.macrotrends.net/stocks/charts/TM/toyota/profit-m...
  • somerandomqaguy 5y ago
    It actually makes a lot of sense, unfortunately. For the new car buyer, you pitch it as cost savings for the time you own the car. The OE Toyota Long Range remote starter is $1000 so if you go with the app, if you only own the car for 8 years then you're saving money as the new car owner. However the overwhelming majority of car sales in the US are used, and the average age of the American car is now 12 years old. Outside of maintaining a spare parts supply chain, you don't gain any additional revenue from used car sales. With subscriptions, a 2020 model year car can still be generating revenue for a company in 2035. Plus you can adjust the subscription price year after year as desired. I don't like it personally, but I can see method to the madness.
• nashashmi 5y ago
  Guys this is remote start. Not a key fob entry/start service. Sometimes this can be done via cell phone app. And there is always a monthly subscription for this option. But no it is not a monthly subscription for starting your car with your key fob in the pocket.
  • justusthane 5y ago
    Starting the car using the key fob in your pocket is literally what the whole article is about. > Key fob remote start has nothing to do with an app, nor does the car or the fob communicate with any servers managed by Toyota.
    • nashashmi 5y ago
      That’s not what I read. Starting the car with the key fob or previously known as “remote start” which you had to pay like 800$ for, is what the subscription is about. You can still open the car with key fob in hand. And sit in and start the car with key fob in pocket.
      • jackson1442 5y ago
        You can not use the key fob to remote start 2018 or later Toyota vehicles without a Remote Connect membership: https://www.toyota.com/content/dam/toyota/brochures/pdf/connectedservices/Remote_Connect_CFA.pdf https://www.toyota.com/content/dam/toyota/brochures/pdf/conn...
  • egberts1 5y ago
    Ummm, no.
• kmano8 5y ago
  Acura also charges an annual fee for remote start -- though it's through an app vs. fob.
• hoffspot 5y ago
  I've been a Toyota Tacoma guy for the last 22 years (and counting). Three Tacomas and I have a son that we're deciding on a vehicle for in the coming year. This is how you take someone with massive brand affinity, someone who would even likely pass that brand affinity to the next generation, and push them to look at other options. Charging monthly for a service that isn't cloud enabled? If this is true, Toyota, you are literally dead to me.
  • lotsofpulp 5y ago
    FYI, remote start is a pretty easy aftermarket add on, especially for Toyotas.
    • cced 5y ago
      I think OP, much like myself, is one for principles. To me this says “we’re looking for additional revenue streams and have found a way to lock previously available functionality behind some XaaS where X is artificially paywalled”. If this is the path they are going down then there’s no reason to suspect they will stop with that. Sure, there are aftermarket options, but the issue (that I have, at least) is that the taste is now sour. I was looking at a hybrid Rav4, but this makes me look elsewhere. Imagine your garage door opener operating on this model: you have 5 free uses remaining this month, want some light? Simple IAP. What recurring value is Toyota providing by charging you per month for a fob to car signal transmission?
      • lotsofpulp 5y ago
        Absolutely none, but car makers have been ripping off people on navigation systems and other add ons for a very long time. I do not mind taking a philosophical stand, but in this case, my preference would be to still go for Toyota due to their reliability and modifiability, and not get any fancy add on like remote start.
  • throwthere 5y ago
    Well this and the 2022 dropping the v8 for an unproven v6 twin turbo.
• gwbas1c 5y ago
  If it's buried in the fine print, I wonder how long it'll be until a major class action suite forces Toyota to enable the fob.
• olliej 5y ago
  I’m sorry, you don’t get to retroactively remove features like this :-/
• SavantIdiot 5y ago
  I consider this a totally unnecessary thing. When they start charging to start my car, then we've got a problem. However, I do resent them inflating the base price by putting more unwanted h/w into the base model only to be activated as SaaS. EDIT: Snark removal.
  • alkonaut 5y ago
    > Totally unnecessary thing only kids do. I use remote start when it's really cold. I thought that was the whole point of the feature (When the regular gasoline heater isn't enough, it can also run itself warm for a few minutes).
    • SavantIdiot 5y ago
      Snark has been removed from original post. But I look at it as unnecessary feature creep, just more stuff to break. It's like they mastered making cars reliable (if cared for), and now the industry giants want to undo that but tacking on tons of "hey, what about this?" gadgets. Just run out to your car and start it: costs you 30 seconds and some precipitation on your collar?
      • alkonaut 5y ago
        It breaks in a robust way. Like an escalator. If it breaks, it just becomes that run-out-and-start. If it costs next to nothing then it's a good feature. It's like the remote for my TV. Sure I can get up and change channels, or I can walk and start the car. but chances are I'm gonna say "nah" and just cold start it. I'm not paying $8 month but I do pay $40/yr for the volvo version (although that has a bit more than just remote start. I use the remote heater start 100x times more than remote start though). I mean if the heater is remote started then why wouldn't the engine be. It's just the 2nd step of the heating process.
        • SavantIdiot 5y ago
          > I mean if the heater is remote started then why wouldn't the engine be. It's just the 2nd step of the heating process. Ok, that just registered in my brain. If it is a feature where people need to warm their cars before the cars even work, then it is pretty shitty to start charging a subscription fee for it. And if it is incremental, then I see your point. Can I still hate on touchscreens and lack of knobs, tho? :)
• alkonaut 5y ago
  That's ridiculous. For a fixed cost feature you can charge $8k once if you want. Even if that's more than what I'd pay over the cars entire lifetime in $8/mo fees, I can choose whether or not to purchase the fixed cost fee. I don't mind that the fob costs $5 or that the disabled fob is shipped to customers that didn't get the $8k fob option.
• mdp2021 5y ago
  Gentlemembers, I thought that after posting about the news from Stellantis ( https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29469914 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29469914 ) a week ago: we now now need an Open Source Car.
• jetsetgo 5y ago
  [dead]
• DaveSchmindel 5y ago
  Uh oh. Putting off their original plans to shift to EV production, increasing their contract & temp worker pool only to then lay them off in certain "down" quarters to maintain their "no layoff" of FTEs policy, and now this. Pun intended; what the heck is happening under the hood there?
• pessimizer 5y ago
  A Carmaker’s $23 Billion Plan To Keep You Paying Long After You’ve Bought Your Car https://jalopnik.com/a-carmaker-s-23-billion-plan-to-keep-you-paying-long-a-1848172449 https://jalopnik.com/a-carmaker-s-23-billion-plan-to-keep-yo...
• nyx 5y ago
  This is such a sleazy game to play, and it looks to be getting more popular as corporations realize the average consumer just accepts it. Zero Motorcycles, the longest-standing electric motorcycle manufacturer, has announced for their 2022 flagship models that things like battery capacity and charge rate will be gated behind one-time in-app purchases, which is mind-boggling. Having to lug around batteries you can't charge to full capacity on a bike, where space and weight are at a premium, actually makes the product worse if you don't pay the rent. Hoping this strategy blows up in their face, but all indications suggest it's going to be lucrative and the angry minority will just have to eat it.
  • krolley 5y ago
    Eh, wouldn't the extra weight just degrade the battery performance and maybe the ride handling? If you're considering a new bike, it's like (note these are made up, I have no idea about Zero motorcycles): - Premium/unlocked Zero: 30k -- range 200km -- handling: excellent - locked Zero: 25k -- range 150k -- handling: average These are one physical bike but with two prices and characteristics, and can be judged accordingly. If your budget is 25k you price the locked Zero against other bikes in the same budget.
• errcorrectcode 5y ago
  Ownership is evaporating due to technology and a lack of viable alternatives. The idea is to make personal ownership more expensive and trouble that it's worth (monetize misery) so that manufacturers can run their own FSD car sharing fleet so they can charge you whatever they want. Rent-seeking, oligopoly FTW.
  • devoutsalsa 5y ago
    I pay a $6 yearly subscription for a frikkin’ calculator app. It has a handy feature which I use and the price was low enough I didn’t actually care that much. But I never imagined renting a calculator.
    • erklik 5y ago
      Would you mind sharing what the handy feature is? or the Calculator even?
      • devoutsalsa 5y ago
        Currency conversion. I travel internationally quite a bit and it’s easier to use than Google when you need to do some quick math in different currency amounts.
• Animats 5y ago
  Stellantis (the current owner of Chrysler/Jeep/Dodge/etc) has announced that they hope to get $22 billion a year from their customers through post-sale service charges.[1] “Software will improve our business model, disconnecting hardware from software ... shifting the center of gravity of our business,” Stellantis CEO Carlos Tavares said Tuesday during the company’s “Software Day.” Tavares said profit margins for those services are expected to be more comparable to those of a technology company rather than a traditional automaker. The additional revenue stream could potentially double what the automaker makes today, CFO Richard Palmer said. [1] https://www.cnbc.com/2021/12/07/stellantis-plans-to-generate-22point5-billion-in-new-software-revenue-by-2030.html https://www.cnbc.com/2021/12/07/stellantis-plans-to-generate...
  • nicce 5y ago
    This is really bothering. How many of these subscriptions actually will finally increase value for the customer? Without intentionally starting to lock features and enable them later on with payments. Some legistlation is quickly needed.
    • jopsen 5y ago
      Time to start a GNU Automobile project? :) But yes, in a future where software is the most complicated part of a car, maybe that's what we'll be paying for. But, IMO then there should also be competition on the software side.
      • nicce 5y ago
        I would argue that software in current iPhones is not much more complicated, just different use case. Current state of the software in cars is not eligible for subscriptions when iPhones get free updates for years which is more than maintenance mode. Yes, when cars finally reach the self-driving more, it sounds complicated but our knowledge also grows over time. We don’t charge extra for voice-assistant support in devices these days which was black magic 30 years ago. Similarly how current computers compares to pricing of first ones. Is coding so ”revolutionary” that we can start ignoring normal adjustment of pricing compared to every other type?
• avelis 5y ago
  I simply can't understand the reasoning other than a cash grab. OEMs, like Toyota, are really showing their true colors to the consumer. They don't care about you.
• barbazoo 5y ago
  Why people remotely start their car is beyond my comprehension most of the time. Unless you're in an extreme climate and absolutely have to bring the car's interior temperature to something survivable, what's the point? We don't have to warm up the engine anymore past a few seconds either. All I can think of is the waste of fuel and unnecessary GHG.
  • beervirus 5y ago
    Is Texas an extreme environment? Not particularly, but still, it’s nice to get the air conditioner going a minute or two before getting into a car in August.
    • barbazoo 5y ago
      Open the windows maybe? Sure it's nice but I wonder if we should consider living without the luxury of having an ICE bring your car to the perfect temperature. I guess people have less GHG emission guilt as me.
      • beervirus 5y ago
        The marginal amount of gas used by idling the car for a minute before driving it around rounds to zero.
        • barbazoo 5y ago
          You can make everything "round to zero" when in fact, it adds up.
    • andiareso 5y ago
      Likewise, Midwest (ie: ND, SD, Minnesota, etc) can get down to -20 easily few weeks out of the year in January/February. Not "unsurvivable" but definitely not good to shift into drive without letting things flex from heat a bit first.
      • 5y ago
• randomizedalgs 5y ago
  This is a classic example of price discrimination. Slowly but surely, companies such as Toyota will converge to a state where every consumer individually pays the maximum amount that the consumer is willing to pay for the product. $8 a month may not seem like much compared to the cost of a car, but that's the point. Toyota will be able to get free extra money from a large population of people (many of whom will later barely even remember that they are incurring this regular cost).
• analog31 5y ago
  Maybe we need some kind of "truth in owning" analogous to truth-in-lending regulations.
• timdellinger 5y ago
  Does anyone have a good lead on where I should direct my outrage, where decision-makers might be listening? (I'm a Toyota owner, but not effected by this.)
• somenewaccount1 5y ago
  As a Tesla stock owner, I'm glad Toyota introduced this feature. If every car company keeps stepping back 20 years of technology, soon Tesla will own the entire market.
• otikik 5y ago
  Yep. No thanks.
• lykahb 5y ago
  It is a common opinion in this thread that it is unethical to charge for enabling a feature that only needs the local communication between a key fob and a car. And that it is fine if there is a cloud in-between, such as remote start from a smartphone, because it has maintenance costs. If majority of the car buyers agree with this distinction, it would simply create an incentive to route more communication through the cloud. Besides, this option makes tracking and control easier. I would argue that the maintaining a server does not have a substantial difference that singles it out from the other work that a car maker does to support the car owners: downloads of manuals, managing recalls, parts inventory, etc. Subscription business model has no place here.
  • tantalor 5y ago
    > it is fine if there is a cloud in-between But there doesn't need to be cloud in-between for an app to talk to your car. You don't even need Internet. In fact my phone already talks to my car via the King of Denmark, so I'm told.
    • nicce 5y ago
      They need it, nobody else. That is why even your robot vacuums are controlled over cloud server, not directly from you phone app. Or why your toaster has wifi soon. Or fridge. Or bluetooth enabled kettle. That sweet sweet data and control.
• hncurious 5y ago
  SaaS is eating the world. Software, music, movies, games, books. Now the car industry and big pharma are flirting with this model.
  • rabuse 5y ago
    You're not excited for your monthly Pfizer booster subscription to stay employed?
    • hncurious 5y ago
      Hey, maybe we'll get a bundle deal with Disney and Pfizer+
• pokstad 5y ago
  I just bought a new Toyota truck this past year. It blows my mind that I have to pay extra for remote start in 2021. I didn’t realize it when I bought it, otherwise I would have thought twice.
• XorNot 5y ago
  Wow. So Toyota are just going to burn a generation of goodwill from their customers in one swoop?
• arsenic64 5y ago
  GM charges ~$15/mo just to use the remote start from their app. I would be fine paying a fee, but $15 is just insane.
• robofanatic 5y ago
  car companies are slowly becoming phone companies. Hope we don't see days when we'll have to subscribe to a plan to use the car.
• thedudeabides5 5y ago
  booooooooooo this is why SaaS sucks
• andy_ppp 5y ago
  To keep breathing the air on mars, please top up your Musk-ways air card. Until then please apply the asphyxiation device or expect to pay for air outside of your tariffed rate.
• ok_dad 5y ago
  I've always liked and bought Toyota brand cars for the past 13 years, but not anymore. Good job, Toyota, because I am currently in the market for a car and between this type of thing, telemetry crap, and no electric cars that are decent, you've lost a loyal customer. I hope one of your marketing/sales/exec employees see this and realize you're not doing the right thing.
• aspectmin 5y ago
  I love my 2020 RAV4 hybrid. Like absolutely love it. But after an incredible horrible experience with Toyota connected services support re renewing and issues with the connected services not working, this is my last Toyota EVER. When this lease is up, I will go shop for a new car at any vendor other than Toyoya.
• s1k3s 5y ago
  I just want to point out that the overall sense of superiority in the comments here is somehow funny. I feel like we’re also the “dumb average Joe” for a lot of companies, and most often for way more than $8/mo.
• jbay808 5y ago
  I wonder if this, too, is a symptom of near-zero interest rates. With an interest rate of zero, future cash flows are valued equal to present cash flows. That increases the net present value of recurring payments (approaching infinity, actually). So it becomes increasingly attractive for companies to discount the initial sale price in exchange for a recurring payment. In a higher interest rate environment, that wouldn't be the case, as recurring payments would discount the further they are in the future, converging to a much smaller sum, while revenue earned today from the initial purchase would be more highly valued.
  • soared 5y ago
    Interesting thought. Here’s the math. Toyotas current incentive is zero down, 1.9% apr for 72 months. The typical rav4 costs $33k. Over the life on the loan (6 years) you’d pay about $1,500 in interest. If you paid $8/mo it would take 15.6 years to have paid a total of $1,500 in monthly fees. Likely if you pay $8, you also pay for another subscription. So say $16/mo on average makes $1,500 in only 7.3 years. Monthly subscriptions may be comparable in revenue to what the dealership earns from financing. This may be way off, I don’t really know how any of this works but I am currently shopping for a Toyota :)
    • shostack 5y ago
      The total value captured isn't just the initial subscription. The LTV calculation should also incorporate, just off the top of my head: sale of valuable customer data, improved targeting of ads for new cars based on that telemetry, upsells to additional subscription services, increases in subscription price, affiliate commissions from other subscription services that get bundled in, etc. They don't have these things yet necessarily, but hard not to justify it once Pandora's box is opened.
      • soared 5y ago
        Auto related data is already huge thing, but dealerships don’t do much in the way of collection and sale. Someone who is shopping for a car is super valuable to advertise to, but after that purchase they lose all their value. Telemetry data straight from a cars location is not sold, if it even exists. It would be extremely valuable but seems potentially illegal.
• Sophistifunk 5y ago
  Bullshit like this is why I had to go against my normal no-consumer-credit rules and just cop a loan to buy a (6 year old) "forever car" this year while they could still be had with reasonable mileage. I can't imagine any features that would tempt me into the malware, short-termism, and invasive surveillance that's going into cars these days. Leaving aside the fact that almost every new car is a boring SUV or imitation SUV and they're all a flat wide sea of generic blandness.
• authed 5y ago
  That sounds like something Tesla would do... I'm a bit surprised coming from Toyota.
• 7thaccount 5y ago
  I'll never buy Toyota after seeing this anti-customer behavior. They were high on my buy list too. Like seriously, forever in my avoid at all costs list now.
• crackercrews 5y ago
  Interesting that if you purchased upgraded audio, you get this remote unlock feature free for the first 10 years instead of the first 3. Perhaps in the future they'll sell all the vehicles with the same audio system, but just disable certain speakers or add noise to the signal if you've not paid your monthly premium audio fee?
• gorbachev 5y ago
  Is there potential ways to reverse-engineer this crap?
• Karupan 5y ago
  Only a matter of time before this happened. When Tesla OTA updates breaks autopilot or they remotely disable it [0], I thought to myself surely this isn't setting a good precedence for the rest of the industry. Why settle for profits from just selling the car when you can also get owners to pay you a recurring fee every month! [0] https://www.tweaktown.com/news/70481/used-model-has-autopilot-feature-remotely-disabled-by-tesla/index.html https://www.tweaktown.com/news/70481/used-model-has-autopilo...
• Tempest1981 5y ago
  Does the monthly fee include free key-fob battery replacement? Or is that still $200?
• devy 5y ago
  Would this start a class-action lawsuit?
• deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
• cptaj 5y ago
  The whole smart keys trend is the worst case of taking a perfectly functional thing and ruining it with unnecessary features. I hate them so much. They all cost a boatload of cash to replace and give me absolutely no benefit over a regular key.
• 14 5y ago
  I personally wrote Toyota a message to their facebook page letting them know how disappointed I am in their decision to do this. Shame on them and I hope others voice their dislike for this change and force a change of mind.
• mcdermott 5y ago
  Remote start seems like a gimmick anyway, completely unnecessary.
• greggman3 5y ago
  When I found out you could pay $2000 to make your Tesla accelerate 1 second faster 0-60 it made me wonder what's next. Want to role you windows down more than half way? $500. Want your air-conditioner to run on high? $600. Want you seats to recline 15 degrees more? $550. Want the car to make sharper turns? $2500 Want the radio to remember more than 3 favorites? $150 Etc etc etc.... I'm sure it's coming because it can.
• elzbardico 5y ago
  The author is very naive if he thinks the feature was made open in the older cars with 3G connectivity because of the sunset of 3G as a courtesy for those customers. Given the context it is far more logical to assume they did not enhance the older cars, but instead, they decided not to cut access while they could because then they wouldn't be able to enable it remotely should the customer renew their subscription.
• Havoc 5y ago
  Reminds me of the mountain dew drink verification can greentext. The most comical of dystopias https://imgur.com/r/4chan/dgGvgKF https://imgur.com/r/4chan/dgGvgKF
• nhumrich 5y ago
  Meanwhile my Ford allows me to use the app, and connected services without a subscription. Included in the cost of the car.
• Lamad123 5y ago
  It's not even the money! It's the scumminess and extortionist attitudes that pisses you off!!
• samschooler 5y ago
  Subaru charges $12.50/month I wish it was $8 a year. https://www.subaru.com/engineering/starlink/safety-security.html https://www.subaru.com/engineering/starlink/safety-security....
• theonlybutlet 5y ago
  Fair enough charging for the service as there are costs involved but $8 is criminal, nearly the price of a Netflix subscription.
• kylehotchkiss 5y ago
  The real joke is the Toyota app. It feels sloppy and rushed. Is there any protection or opt out from location collection? I wish I could wrap a faraday cage type thing over the 4g chip but I have no idea where it is or how to find it. They probably added it to the same fuse as the ECU so you can’t get rid of it.
• wirthjason 5y ago
  Is this happening to Toyotas in Japan? Feels like the “un-Japanese” thing to do. I remember getting a cell phone as a college student. I had AU but my Japanese friends had Docomo. Docomo was way more than AU for the first year but the longer you were a customer the cheaper it was. It felt like real loyalty. I was trained on the US system that the fort year was the cheapest me then they increased the rates. The complete opposite.
• mrblampo 5y ago
  Good reason not to shell out for remote start in the first place!
• unobatbayar 5y ago
  What's the average duration before replacing your car? 3-4 years? $8/month for 3-4 years sounds absurd if you consider other fees such as repair fee, annual checkups, insurance, parking fees, tickets etc.
• neilv 5y ago
  I assumed the Toyota brand still had great goodwill, so I'm surprised they'd tarnish it like this.
• bborud 5y ago
  Toyota seems to have lost their way. They've been late to the EV game, they wasted a lot of time touting hydrogen as a solution, and now they seem to be dead set on screwing over their relationship with the customer. Here in Norway the electrification of automobiles has come quite far, and one thing that is quite striking is that all these new brands keep popping up. Years ago I read a lot of papers on incumbents in the face of technological disruption. If you look at the last 100 or so years, only about 15% of incumbents manage to hold on to their dominant position in the face of technological disruption. I wonder if Toyota is going to have a significant market share in 20-30 years. A lot of the decisions made by the top brass seem to indicate that they're reaching the end of the industrial life cycle.
• DeathArrow 5y ago
  This should become illegal. What if the producer of your pacemaker decides to bill you monthly? Or, in a less sinister note, what if your fridge will keep your food at 20C unless you pay a monthly sum to have 5C inside?