23 ms·

USC pushed a $115k online degree – graduates got low salaries, huge debts

197 points by alex504 5y ago

mdavis6890 5y ago
It doesn't sound like the students have as big a problem as the LENDERS do! Why don't the students just not pay the bill and file bankruptcy? If the loans aren't government loans that aren't bankrupt-able, then I think we have identified the problem right there. What we need to do is ensure that lenders bare the full cost of lending to people who likely will not be able to pay them back.
imperialdrive 5y ago
That's a great way to tarnish all USC alumni. I hope they give the school an earful for this disgusting practice.
- wnissen 5y ago
  I don't know that USC was that prestigious outside of the sports/marching band arenas. But charging the same price for online is horrible. Honestly, though, it says a lot about CSUs that you can go there, borrow two thirds less, and still make more money than a USC grad.
  - Domenic_S 5y ago
    Their film school is ostensibly great, turning out directors such as Judd Apatow and George Lucas
    - nradov 5y ago
      What is the median student debt for USC film school graduates, and what percentage of them default?
  - bruceb 5y ago
    "..it says a lot about CSUs that you can go there, borrow two thirds less, and still make more money than a USC grad." For the same degree?
  - colinmhayes 5y ago
    USC is just as prestigious as UCLA. They've easily got the most prestigious film program in the world.
    - clairity 5y ago
      usc is a money-oriented pay-for-prestige institution, and most folks know it, which is why it always lags ucla (and others) in prestige outside of the cinema school (even that has been bought, by old-money hollywood). other programs, like engineering, are solid, but suffer from the overall shallowness of usc’s image, as well as the many scandals that have further tarnished the brand.
      - mrep 5y ago
        My dad always called it university of spoiled children.
- Jdixnxjsj 5y ago
  How does this tarnish USC's other degrees? 99% of alumni don't have degrees in social work.
nomilk 5y ago
Doesn't seem to be on WBM yet. Any link to the full text (without paywall)?
- BingoAhoy 5y ago
  Trick is, to go to archive.vn website or any other equivalent. In second search box copy article url in and click. Sometimes you have to remove unnecessary url query parameters like amp for it to work. https://archive.vn/Wx7mx https://archive.vn/Wx7mx
rfreiberger 5y ago
Not sure if this is the same but a few universities will offer certificates and degrees in various subjects off campus. I think these are mostly sold as "business development" but I always wondered if they were simply fly by night education with the stamp of "prestige college".
vgeek 5y ago
Colleges have been quietly expanding the last 10-15 years with programs like these. They do it discreetly, sometimes with different campuses across town or simply online. From what I've seen, they may be an entirely separate school so as to not be reported on the same way (a 7% acceptance rate and high job placement rates at blue chip firms makes a difference when the major currency of universities is prestige), since many of them are essentially open admissions. E.g. On LinkedIn I frequently see Harvard listed on profiles, but upon digging in, it is Harvard Extension School which mostly seems to offer certificates. The recipients win (they get to put Harvard on their resume, albeit paying high fees for online only, ignoring costs/default rates) and the college wins (they get paid, the marginal cost per student is probably favorable, degree vs certificates probably doesn't matter if the same content and tests apply). The only people potentially negatively impacted will be the students of the traditional organization in that they paid full tuition for a college brand that is actively diluting itself by selling certificates that may have lower standards that traditionally associated with the organization.
- m0lecules 5y ago
  OTOH, you have schools like (the actual) Georgia Tech offering an online MS in CS for an affordable price: https://omscs.gatech.edu/ https://omscs.gatech.edu/
  - zeropoint46 5y ago
    I wish they had something like this for undergrad.
    - vasusen 5y ago
      University of London offers a Bachelor of Science (BSc) in Computer Science degree - https://www.coursera.org/degrees/bachelor-of-science-computer-science-london https://www.coursera.org/degrees/bachelor-of-science-compute.... Full disclosure: I work at Coursera.
      - nvusuvu 5y ago
clpm4j 5y ago
https://archive.md/Wx7mx https://archive.md/Wx7mx
bluedevil2k 5y ago
And almost all got loans backed by the US government that they won’t be able to repay and will fall on the US taxpayer to cover. Essentially USC bilked the US taxpayers out of millions, with these poor students serving as the unfortunate middlemen. Solution: make the universities have some skin the game - cover 20% of the principal on defaulted loans.
- dnissley 5y ago
  Agreed. Any proposed solution to the student debt crisis that doesn't hold schools accountable is not a solution at all.
- passivate 5y ago
  Yep, Additionally we could also push for tuition-free community colleges to reduce the need for for-profit colleges in the first place.
  - csee 5y ago
    That's a great idea as long as we're not subsidizing activist disciplines such as gender studies. I'd be happy for my tax money to be going towards free computer science courses at a community college.
- woeirua 5y ago
  Given the price inelasticity of college, the money to cover these defaults would probably just come from other students. They'd just hike tuition to cover the risk. A much better solution is to revoke the ability of students at specific schools/programs to qualify for federal student loans if the outcomes of the program are poor. Turn off the spigot of money, and they will cleanup their act really quickly.
  - vgeek 5y ago
    There was a push with the Common Data Set (https://commondataset.org/ https://commondataset.org/) to help increase transparency to potential students, but it runs into a Prisoner's Dilemma, with poor outcome organizations opting not to participate. The Department of Education should have a vested interest specifically in the way that you mention, and they did set up a site that communicates historical outcomes of majors at a per school level at https://collegescorecard.ed.gov/ https://collegescorecard.ed.gov/, but it gets little visibility in the college marketing funnel that is filled with for profit enterprises like US News and Niche-- plus the marketing (admissions and/or athletics) departments of colleges themselves.
hackermailman 5y ago
Cheapest online US regional accreditation is WGU, which you can do at own pace so if you know calculus you can just write the exam. UK open u is probably the next cheapest but not by much. UoP is on regional accreditation path but only national right now. Everything else is going to be min $40k bachelor or $20k+ Masters but even Arizona pricey online deg is cheaper than this article or Florida U, both have real curriculum not extension school shenanigans
- hpoe 5y ago
  I'm going to take a minute to plug WGU I got my undergrad and grad from there and it is fantastic. I would recommend it for anyone that is already working and needs a piece of paper. They work on a competency based model where you either take a test, or do a project/paper (or both) for the class to pass it. If it takes you 3 weeks to study and pass the test it takes 3 weeks, if it takes 2 days you can pass the class in 2 days. The major benefit though is that you pay a flat price for a semester and then you can do as many credits as you want in that semester for a flat fee, so if you want you can get 24 credits done in one semester. Additionally this isn't an ITT Tech or DeVrye type scam where they just push you through, a lot of the classes are based around industry certs as the final test for the class, and they give a through grounding in a lot of areas. The flip side is they are very focused on practical job skills and not so much theory, I personally think it results in a more well rounded engineering student who is able to work in Networking, Software Development or Systems Admin reasonably competently. Again I am a fun I recommend it, I wish everyone would start doing it because I think it is a game changer. Feel free to AMA if you have more questions about it.
  - suresk 5y ago
    It is also regionally accredited, which is important if you are hoping to go onto grad school or transfer credits to a different university later. I am about 75% through the program and for someone who has been in the field for a while, it is really good. A lot of classes have just been taking a quick test to prove competency, but the discrete math and computer architecture classes were really interesting and useful. That said, I'd be slightly hesitant to fully recommend it to someone who had zero prior programming experience. The fact that there are no assignments and only a handful of courses that require projects means you can graduate without having written a ton of code, and the code you do write is somewhat disjointed - a few Python courses, 2 Java courses (with a heavy emphasis on JavaFX), and a random C++ course that seemed pretty out of place. I don't that is the worst thing in the world, but if someone comes in cold and just checks all the boxes to get through the program as quickly as possible, they may find themselves ill-prepared for interviews and their first job.
adultSwim 5y ago
USC's Computer Science Master's is also a degree mill, particularly targeting foreign students who must pay full tuition in cash.
- sjg007 5y ago
  Most CS masters programs are this way. They are a way to get into the H1B lottery.
  - Emma_Goldman 5y ago
    In the UK, 90% of masters programs work that way. Admissions criteria for international students are a lot lower, because they can charge them what they like. It's where they make a lot of their money.
- colinmhayes 5y ago
  Almost all computer science masters programs exist to take money from foreign students who are looking to gain residency.
- cdgore 5y ago
  I've heard people say this since the program is so large, but the same could be said for any large research university that has a CS master's program. Anecdotally, I got my master's degree in CS at USC and had a good experience overall. I definitely learned a lot and was able to fill in some gaps in my knowledge of CS theory and machine learning. I was also able to get offers from Google and Facebook from their on-campus recruiting programs, and I know several other people in my cohort that did the same.
maerF0x0 5y ago
not to be too cold about the real people hurt by the mischaracterization, but... My local ferrari dealership basically implies my life will be perfect (all the pretty women will fawn over me!!) if I just buy one of their cars. America made these institutions into for profit companies. We have to stop giving them the goodwill we'd afford to altruistic/idealistic academic institutions. Yes USC has a "not for profit" label, but just because the label says "water" doesn't mean there isn't gasoline in that bottle -- use some common sense and call a bird a duck by it's quack.
- vgeek 5y ago
  Exactly. I used to consider academia as a separate entity from the private sector, thinking it was full of altruistic individuals wanting to further the knowledge of humanity. Then I started seeing that most colleges operate as tax-exempt businesses with different marketing strategies, products and target consumers. They're just layers of bureaucracy while those delivering the most value (professors) regularly get treated rather poorly (pay, job security, responsibilities, etc.) while the administrators soak up all of the benefits. How do the objectives get shifted back towards learning rather than building new stadiums and student centers?
  - netizen-936824 5y ago
    In my experience its split within the university itself, with most of the actual academics being lower paid and about furthering knowledge and teaching. The other administrative departments are the ones with questionable utility and motives, its like they're being taken over by MBAs
    - ishjoh 5y ago
      It's not just MBAs it's M*, I have a close friend who works in the administration for a well known university, her department administration will not hire any junior person that doesn't have a masters degree, it doesn't particularly matter what masters degree they have, just as long as they have one. In addition to requiring a masters degree, my friends admin department is way over staffed, having come from private industry my friend is shocked at how little people do. My friend has a boss whose screen they can see, and estimates that the boss puts in roughly 15mins of work per day and spends the rest of the time on Twitter & Facebook. My friend estimates that the headcount is roughly 3 times more than it would be in private industry
vondur 5y ago
Just a casual looks shows that salaries in the Social Work field don't pay that well. I'm not sure how getting a Masters Degree will help someone. I see this in some other fields here at the University I work at. Students will get a degree that has a limited job outlook, and in order to actually get a job in that field, they believe getting a Masters will help them out in the long run, but often times does not. If I were in that position, I'd only look at Public Universities where the pricing should be far better than a private University.
- jdavis703 5y ago
  I’m sure there’s value in a masters social work degree, but not for anyone who wants to do hands-on work. If folks feel they want to do higher level work (i.e. addressing systemic issues that are behind the day-to-day issues social workers help with), then the degree could be useful.
  - aidenn0 5y ago
    Pretty sure that an MSW is required to be a social worker in my county; not sure if it's a statewide requirement in CA.
    - jdavis703 5y ago
      What’s the reasoning behind this? Like librarians, firefighters and cops often serve as de-facto social workers… And sure they can’t handle the most complex cases. But a lot of times someone’s problem might boil down to something simple, like they just need shoes or a meal.
      - aidenn0 5y ago
        My guess is it's liability. 99% of the policies that the department of social services has is to cover their asses when they get sued. The remaining 1% sometimes manages to help people as well. I should note that a lot of the work for open cases goes to (lower paid) case-aids, and certain things can be delegated to volunteers (e.g. I've provided transportation to school for kids who were placed in a foster house outside their school district).
renewiltord 5y ago
These degrees are worthless. The fields are worthless. And a constant ongoing propaganda campaign is waged to get people to pay for them. Helping along are an army of useful idiots who will pretend like this is academia when it is pseudoscience packaged up as a program to steal from unknowing young people. It’s time for us to publish expected income based on major and university. “God forbid someone study something for the love of it”. No, god doesn’t forbid shit. But the realities of the fact that you gotta put food in your mouth constrain you. If money isn’t such a big deal, why not just share the data. I’m sure people will say “Oh yeah, I think it’s worth it for me to live my life in undischargeable debt so I can ‘study’ this major at this place and work for minimum wage”.
- InitialLastName 5y ago
  > The fields are worthless. You realize we're talking about social work here, right? God forbid someone help people with their work rather than find ways to lubricate an advertising delivery system at a FAANG.
  - NateEag 5y ago
    Not OP, but I suspect they call the field "useless" based on the belief that social work doesn't achieve its aims, not on the grounds that the aims are bad.
    - BizarroLand 5y ago
      Either that or they're judging the career based on its lifetime potential remuneration and not the internal passion of the pursuer or the external social value it provides. Social workers, like teachers and janitors are vastly undervalued for what they provide (in optimal circumstances).
cm2012 5y ago
Way more of a scam than any bootcamp
paulpauper 5y ago
Low-ranking but expensive private colleges are such a racket, overall. Paying $100k for Brown has a way higher ROI than paying $100k for No-name U.
- aidenn0 5y ago
  I think the biggest difference in college since I went to school is that the gap between the cost of an elite school and a random state-school has narrowed significantly. I had a friend who paid his way through college with summer construction jobs and graduated with about $10k in debt. People who were willing to work part-time during the school year could graduate debt free. Tuition at an exclusive liberal arts school was 5-10x the cost of tuition at a state school in-state and almost double the cost of a state school out-of-state.
  - colinmhayes 5y ago
    UIUC instate total cost is 30k a year, including room/board. If you're working full time and living a poverty lifestyle you can graduate debt free easily enough, especially if you get prestigious internships.
    - aidenn0 5y ago
      Not sure about UIUC, but $3600 in in-state tuition for Purdue in 1999; ~$10k including room/board/books. Out of state was $8k more. Purdue froze the in-state tuition at $10k some years ago, but did so by reducing the number of in-state students that were admitted; they need far more out-of-state (and out-of-country) students to subsidize that each year.
      - ishjoh 5y ago
        I'm happy you included that, my alma matter has also turned to this, the percentage of out of country compared to in state has changed drastically since I went there. I feel bad for the kids applying who in years passed would have been accepted but now aren't because of these perverse incentives.
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sgpl 5y ago
I think the biggest reason why the price is so high (beyond the brand, and the fact that the government policy results in everyone getting whatever loan amount they want) is because they're contractually required to share a huge chunk of that money with 2U (the same company that bought EDx's assets). The article mentions that the old contract stated that about 60% of revenue gets shared with 2U but then there was a revision to the contract so it's not clear what the current figure is but even if they lowered it to 40-55%, that's still a huge chunk of change for basically running ads to target students into the funnel. It's actually sickening that the contract extends to 2030. So USC is only getting $115,000 * .4 = $46,000 which while still high is substantially lower and sounds like a reasonable amount to offer the degree at. I'm not sure why they haven't built out an internal function since and tried to get out of the contract. For the peak year of graduation mentioned (2017, 1500 students), 2U's take at the 60% figure is ginormous. $115k * 1500 students * 0.6. = $103.5 million. Anyway there's so much wrong with what's happening here. EDIT: I just re-read the article, it seems like the 1500 figure is a combination of in-person and online graduates for the year 2017. Still the premise holds true: a 60% take rate is excessive.
- bklyn11201 5y ago
  The vast majority of elite institutions are completely unwilling to take the risks to capture 100% of the online revenue pie: a) They are unwilling to spend lots of money on upfront content development costs without knowing future revenue. b) They are unwilling to hire a bunch of temporary workers to help spin up new content and then re-allocate them. c) They are unwilling to adopt (aggressive) modern marketing techniques. d) They are unwilling to cold call. e) They are unwilling to maintain call centers. f) They are unwilling to spend millions on FB and Goog ads even if it has positive ROI.
  - vgeek 5y ago
    All of these are true except for d and e. I get multiple calls per week some weeks asking for donations from various deparments, having never donated to my college and demonstrated no willingness to do so. If they can panhandle from alumni, why not call prospective students? Too low of an ROI or are they just playing hard to get?
nsxwolf 5y ago
Seems like people have been warned about this stuff for over a decade now and we keep hearing about it. When will students stop taking the bait?
- MeinBlutIstBlau 5y ago
  When people can make middle class livings again without being shut out of a job for lack of a college degree. My previous job I worked at required a Bachelors in business of any kind. I got it because I worked at the company and basically beat out external candidates even though I didn't have a degree. Know what it paid? $15/hr. This is why people are duped into college degrees.
  - strix_varius 5y ago
    I don't have a degree, but I have an excellent job, and I used to consider myself lucky to be a tech-based outlier. But given how much I've paid this year for refinishing hardwood floors, installing gas lines, plumbing, and electrical work, I now wonder if tech is really that unique. The contractors I talk to are booked out for weeks, and I need their expertise much more than they need my business. I'm not convinced that lacking a degree shuts people out of good jobs. My cynical take is that there's a mismatch between what people are willing and able to do, and what activities are valuable. Most people aren't willing to work inside peoples' mouths all day. Dentists make bank. The HN crowd notwithstanding, most people would hate carefully crafting digital products all day. Software devs make bank. Most people aren't willing to crawl underneath houses to hook up potentially-dangerous electric/gas lines. etc.
    - MeinBlutIstBlau 5y ago
      > Most people aren't willing to crawl underneath houses to hook up potentially-dangerous electric/gas lines. etc. In a past life, I tried the general laborer gamit and it's impossible to get a job there too. Simply cause nobody hires you unless it's by word of mouth. So it's even worse than being shut out for not having a degree. So overall, it's no so much that people don't believe that they need a degree, it's the path of least resistance since you can at least get your foot in the door through a company once you pass the minimum qualifications. General labor stuff, good luck getting a job in a specialized field. I tried breaking into HVAC and I couldn't even get an unpaid apprenticeship cause people just won't do it.
woeirua 5y ago
The only way to effectively address the college tuition bubble is going to be for Congress to pass a law that caps the amount of student loans that someone can draw to be proportional to their expected salary over X years on a per-school, per-program basis. That would put a lot of pressure on underperforming programs and schools to produce better value for their students, either by improving outcomes, or by reducing the cost of tuition. Yes, regrettably some programs would go the way of the dodo, but we shouldn't be saddling our kids with crippling debt so that they can do four years of college and end up in the same place they were before they went to college from a career prospective. If people want to spend their own money to study underwater basketweaving, then so be it. Also, federal loans should be extended to vocational training programs under the same stipulations. Edit: the DOE should also have the ability to give programs/schools the death penalty (no loans) if they are found to be manipulating data used for these calculations.
- jagraff 5y ago
  Instead of a cap, why not just make student loans dischargeable in bankruptcy? Let the market sort out the expected value of degrees based on the expected probability of bankruptcy
- Axien 5y ago
  Too complicated. I would make a rule that any Bachelors program costing more than 15k is ineligible for student loans. Magically those $60k programs will fall to $15k. The reason college is so expensive is because that is what people are willing to take loans to cover.
  - mrep 5y ago
    Then kids from poor parents won't be able to go to the top programs because the top programs won't reduce their rates because they will still be able to get their high fees from rich parents and they won't want to make their school worse at least perceptibly so if they have to cut a bunch of costs.
- YetAnotherNick 5y ago
  This sounds good on paper but this would just lead to degrees like liberal arts to be removed from the country.
varispeed 5y ago
Is there a point today to get a degree in the IT space? Universities are a thing of the past where the access to quality knowledge is ubiquitous. I mean most of thing that get you a decent job you can learn even on YT for free. Sure you are going to need some self-discipline and a lot of practice but it is perfectly doable. For $115k you could have plenty of funds to hire some pros to mark your home works or give some pointers. I think only advantage of Uni is that you can get connections, but you can also get them by going to local meet ups.
IncRnd 5y ago
https://archive.md/wPRPz https://archive.md/wPRPz
999900000999 5y ago
Ehh eh. I went to a CSU for like 6k a year. If you want to be elitist and attend the most expensive school possible, you have to eventually pay for it. > Ms. Fowler, a 2018 graduate, enjoyed the program but owes $307,000 in total student-loan debt, including about $200,000 from the master’s degree. She said she earns $48,000 as a community mental-health therapist in Mount Pleasant, Iowa. This translates into paying 300k to feel prestigious. At dinner parties she gets to tell everyone about how she's a USC grad. Adults have a right to make poor choices. That said, having a hard cap of 100k unless enrolling in a high paid field ( Dr , Lawyer, anything that requires a state sanctioned license) would be a good idea. The problem with Student Loan forgiveness is it would typically help the highest paid Americans. Most people with 100k plus in loans also make very good money. Why in God's name would you go 300k in debt to make 50k ? I see the same problem with boot camps, instead of accepting that building a six-figure career just takes a while, people want a shortcut. I got to six-figure figures without even having a BA, but it took a long time in a lot of very hard work. Actually it only took me about 3 years from dropping out of college to my first six-figure job, but I was programming at least 40 hours a week back then. This was after work of course. Even now I'm off and happiest when I'm building my side projects.
- 908B64B197 5y ago
  > This translates into paying 300k to feel prestigious. At dinner parties she gets to tell everyone about how she's a USC grad. With an online degree? Why would anyone brag about that?
  - barry-cotter 5y ago
    With a USC degree? Why would anyone brag about that? Snobbery is fractal. People who went to elite schools look down on places that are very good, like USC.
    - 908B64B197 5y ago
      USC is a great university. It's bragging to have graduated from what looks like an obvious cash cow program that I'm skeptical of. All online, no cap on enrollment and full price. Should raise red flags.
TheMagicHorsey 5y ago
It's the degree that matters as much as (or more than) the institution. If you get a degree in a field that has low barriers of entry, few employers (or only a monopoly employer such as the state), and no opportunity to freelance, then you will not get high wages.
TimPC 5y ago
Degrees are often used as proxies for an IQ test. To get into school X you must be at least Y smart. As long as we ban IQ tests for employment employers are going to keep using this as the best practical proxy. It’s going to have these kinds of bad effects where people need to get $115k degrees to get a $50k job since some people will do so despite the nonsensical ROI. We need to remove the law banning IQ tests in job interviews and let employers test for the kinds of things they currently proxy by university degree.
- _red 5y ago
  > As long as we ban IQ tests for employment employers are going to keep using this as the best practical proxy. I Thats probably true to a degree, however I think the system will breakdown this decade. Given current inflation rates, anyone with an IQ >120 will soon see that the debt/benefit ratio is becoming unworkable. The last 2 employees my company hired actually game via github - we were using an open-source repo that someone had made and eventually reached out and asked him if he wanted to consult for us and add some features to his code...that lead to an ongoing basic permanent consulting gig.
  - go_blue_13 5y ago
    Doesn't inflation mean that nominal debt is less painful to hold? ie I go $100k into debt for a degree, but 5 years down the line that $100k only has $50k buying power (in original year terms), so its easier to pay off?
    - eindiran 5y ago
      Yes inflation does mean exactly that, but maybe OP meant interest rates (which I believe have been trending up of late).
- nprz 5y ago
  The world's most intelligent people can't figure out a way to make a 50k salary without spending 300k on education?
- 5y ago
parm289 5y ago
Perhaps a bit off topic, but seeing the breadth of general discussion about online CS masters programs in this thread, figured I'd ask the HN crowd: How is a program like the Penn MCIT Online degree[0] viewed by engineering and product hiring teams in industry? I am looking at transitioning from venture capital investing to SWE (and potentially product, given my business background) and this seems like a good option to facilitate that change - education in CS fundamentals (vs. a bootcamp) but still a reasonably short/practical program (10 courses). Curious if there are engineers/PMs here that have gone through MCIT or similar to pivot into software from another field? Or, if any hiring managers here have hired graduates from these online degree programs and have insight/advice? [0]: https://online.seas.upenn.edu/degrees/mcit-online/ https://online.seas.upenn.edu/degrees/mcit-online/
- autokad 5y ago
  I can't speak of the online degree, but the MCIT program is pretty good. I graduated from the standard CS but many of my friends were in the MCIT degree. Given they came from more varied backgrounds, I actually thought the student body was more impressive. However, I dont know how all of this online stuff is going to effect things. I would just show up to wharton classes and wait for them to not kick me out, but online ... no chance. You also miss out on all the great conversations and doing study groups at the library, etc. The program is strong, and it will help you get lots of interviews, but I'd do what ever possible to do the in person degree. I c an recommend good DS classes at the school if you are interested in that topic
- EduToss 5y ago
  Throwaway as have done work slightly related to this industry. I looked in to MCIT online but the outcomes appeared to be very mediocre. One of the testimonials was a student who got a job in sales at a tech company. A big tell is if you go to their outcomes page it is a bit embarrassing in the lack of anything to boast about. https://online.seas.upenn.edu/degrees/mcit-online/outcomes/ https://online.seas.upenn.edu/degrees/mcit-online/outcomes/ First testimonial: "Halfway through her first year in MCIT Online, Xunjing Wu is considering applying for a product management role." Pay $26,000 to consider applying for a role.
autokad 5y ago
I dont understand how online degrees cost so much. When I taught, I was paid around 10-15k$. I had 25 students paying 6600$ tuition + fees. I get that the 15000$<<165,000$ is because of infrastructure, etc, but online? really?
- deleted 5y ago
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tapatio 5y ago
This makes me sad.
rayiner 5y ago
We don’t talk enough about how universities are scamming young people and ruining their lives. Even the best universities operate these cash cow diploma mills. How do they get away with it? People are outraged at payday lenders or whatever. How many people do you know with a payday loan? How many with student debt and a worthless degree? We’re socialized not to talk about it. But it seems like half the people in my law school said they were there because their undergrad degree was worthless. But they keep feeding the beast by suckering the next cohort.

197 points by alex504 5y ago

It doesn't sound like the students have as big a problem as the LENDERS do! Why don't the students just not pay the bill and file bankruptcy? If the loans aren't government loans that aren't bankrupt-able, then I think we have identified the problem right there. What we need to do is ensure that lenders bare the full cost of lending to people who likely will not be able to pay them back.

imperialdrive 5y ago

That's a great way to tarnish all USC alumni. I hope they give the school an earful for this disgusting practice.

wnissen 5y ago
I don't know that USC was that prestigious outside of the sports/marching band arenas. But charging the same price for online is horrible. Honestly, though, it says a lot about CSUs that you can go there, borrow two thirds less, and still make more money than a USC grad.
- Domenic_S 5y ago
  Their film school is ostensibly great, turning out directors such as Judd Apatow and George Lucas
  - nradov 5y ago
    What is the median student debt for USC film school graduates, and what percentage of them default?
- bruceb 5y ago
  "..it says a lot about CSUs that you can go there, borrow two thirds less, and still make more money than a USC grad." For the same degree?
- colinmhayes 5y ago
  USC is just as prestigious as UCLA. They've easily got the most prestigious film program in the world.
  - clairity 5y ago
    usc is a money-oriented pay-for-prestige institution, and most folks know it, which is why it always lags ucla (and others) in prestige outside of the cinema school (even that has been bought, by old-money hollywood). other programs, like engineering, are solid, but suffer from the overall shallowness of usc’s image, as well as the many scandals that have further tarnished the brand.
    - mrep 5y ago
      My dad always called it university of spoiled children.
Jdixnxjsj 5y ago
How does this tarnish USC's other degrees? 99% of alumni don't have degrees in social work.

nomilk 5y ago

Doesn't seem to be on WBM yet. Any link to the full text (without paywall)?

BingoAhoy 5y ago
Trick is, to go to archive.vn website or any other equivalent. In second search box copy article url in and click. Sometimes you have to remove unnecessary url query parameters like amp for it to work. https://archive.vn/Wx7mx https://archive.vn/Wx7mx

rfreiberger 5y ago

Not sure if this is the same but a few universities will offer certificates and degrees in various subjects off campus. I think these are mostly sold as "business development" but I always wondered if they were simply fly by night education with the stamp of "prestige college".

vgeek 5y ago

Colleges have been quietly expanding the last 10-15 years with programs like these. They do it discreetly, sometimes with different campuses across town or simply online. From what I've seen, they may be an entirely separate school so as to not be reported on the same way (a 7% acceptance rate and high job placement rates at blue chip firms makes a difference when the major currency of universities is prestige), since many of them are essentially open admissions. E.g. On LinkedIn I frequently see Harvard listed on profiles, but upon digging in, it is Harvard Extension School which mostly seems to offer certificates. The recipients win (they get to put Harvard on their resume, albeit paying high fees for online only, ignoring costs/default rates) and the college wins (they get paid, the marginal cost per student is probably favorable, degree vs certificates probably doesn't matter if the same content and tests apply). The only people potentially negatively impacted will be the students of the traditional organization in that they paid full tuition for a college brand that is actively diluting itself by selling certificates that may have lower standards that traditionally associated with the organization.

m0lecules 5y ago
OTOH, you have schools like (the actual) Georgia Tech offering an online MS in CS for an affordable price: https://omscs.gatech.edu/ https://omscs.gatech.edu/
- zeropoint46 5y ago
  I wish they had something like this for undergrad.
  - vasusen 5y ago
    University of London offers a Bachelor of Science (BSc) in Computer Science degree - https://www.coursera.org/degrees/bachelor-of-science-computer-science-london https://www.coursera.org/degrees/bachelor-of-science-compute.... Full disclosure: I work at Coursera.
    - nvusuvu 5y ago

clpm4j 5y ago

https://archive.md/Wx7mx https://archive.md/Wx7mx

bluedevil2k 5y ago

And almost all got loans backed by the US government that they won’t be able to repay and will fall on the US taxpayer to cover. Essentially USC bilked the US taxpayers out of millions, with these poor students serving as the unfortunate middlemen. Solution: make the universities have some skin the game - cover 20% of the principal on defaulted loans.

dnissley 5y ago
Agreed. Any proposed solution to the student debt crisis that doesn't hold schools accountable is not a solution at all.
passivate 5y ago
Yep, Additionally we could also push for tuition-free community colleges to reduce the need for for-profit colleges in the first place.
- csee 5y ago
  That's a great idea as long as we're not subsidizing activist disciplines such as gender studies. I'd be happy for my tax money to be going towards free computer science courses at a community college.
woeirua 5y ago
Given the price inelasticity of college, the money to cover these defaults would probably just come from other students. They'd just hike tuition to cover the risk. A much better solution is to revoke the ability of students at specific schools/programs to qualify for federal student loans if the outcomes of the program are poor. Turn off the spigot of money, and they will cleanup their act really quickly.
- vgeek 5y ago
  There was a push with the Common Data Set (https://commondataset.org/ https://commondataset.org/) to help increase transparency to potential students, but it runs into a Prisoner's Dilemma, with poor outcome organizations opting not to participate. The Department of Education should have a vested interest specifically in the way that you mention, and they did set up a site that communicates historical outcomes of majors at a per school level at https://collegescorecard.ed.gov/ https://collegescorecard.ed.gov/, but it gets little visibility in the college marketing funnel that is filled with for profit enterprises like US News and Niche-- plus the marketing (admissions and/or athletics) departments of colleges themselves.

hackermailman 5y ago

Cheapest online US regional accreditation is WGU, which you can do at own pace so if you know calculus you can just write the exam. UK open u is probably the next cheapest but not by much. UoP is on regional accreditation path but only national right now. Everything else is going to be min $40k bachelor or $20k+ Masters but even Arizona pricey online deg is cheaper than this article or Florida U, both have real curriculum not extension school shenanigans

hpoe 5y ago
I'm going to take a minute to plug WGU I got my undergrad and grad from there and it is fantastic. I would recommend it for anyone that is already working and needs a piece of paper. They work on a competency based model where you either take a test, or do a project/paper (or both) for the class to pass it. If it takes you 3 weeks to study and pass the test it takes 3 weeks, if it takes 2 days you can pass the class in 2 days. The major benefit though is that you pay a flat price for a semester and then you can do as many credits as you want in that semester for a flat fee, so if you want you can get 24 credits done in one semester. Additionally this isn't an ITT Tech or DeVrye type scam where they just push you through, a lot of the classes are based around industry certs as the final test for the class, and they give a through grounding in a lot of areas. The flip side is they are very focused on practical job skills and not so much theory, I personally think it results in a more well rounded engineering student who is able to work in Networking, Software Development or Systems Admin reasonably competently. Again I am a fun I recommend it, I wish everyone would start doing it because I think it is a game changer. Feel free to AMA if you have more questions about it.
- suresk 5y ago
  It is also regionally accredited, which is important if you are hoping to go onto grad school or transfer credits to a different university later. I am about 75% through the program and for someone who has been in the field for a while, it is really good. A lot of classes have just been taking a quick test to prove competency, but the discrete math and computer architecture classes were really interesting and useful. That said, I'd be slightly hesitant to fully recommend it to someone who had zero prior programming experience. The fact that there are no assignments and only a handful of courses that require projects means you can graduate without having written a ton of code, and the code you do write is somewhat disjointed - a few Python courses, 2 Java courses (with a heavy emphasis on JavaFX), and a random C++ course that seemed pretty out of place. I don't that is the worst thing in the world, but if someone comes in cold and just checks all the boxes to get through the program as quickly as possible, they may find themselves ill-prepared for interviews and their first job.

adultSwim 5y ago

USC's Computer Science Master's is also a degree mill, particularly targeting foreign students who must pay full tuition in cash.

sjg007 5y ago
Most CS masters programs are this way. They are a way to get into the H1B lottery.
- Emma_Goldman 5y ago
  In the UK, 90% of masters programs work that way. Admissions criteria for international students are a lot lower, because they can charge them what they like. It's where they make a lot of their money.
colinmhayes 5y ago
Almost all computer science masters programs exist to take money from foreign students who are looking to gain residency.
cdgore 5y ago
I've heard people say this since the program is so large, but the same could be said for any large research university that has a CS master's program. Anecdotally, I got my master's degree in CS at USC and had a good experience overall. I definitely learned a lot and was able to fill in some gaps in my knowledge of CS theory and machine learning. I was also able to get offers from Google and Facebook from their on-campus recruiting programs, and I know several other people in my cohort that did the same.

maerF0x0 5y ago

not to be too cold about the real people hurt by the mischaracterization, but... My local ferrari dealership basically implies my life will be perfect (all the pretty women will fawn over me!!) if I just buy one of their cars. America made these institutions into for profit companies. We have to stop giving them the goodwill we'd afford to altruistic/idealistic academic institutions. Yes USC has a "not for profit" label, but just because the label says "water" doesn't mean there isn't gasoline in that bottle -- use some common sense and call a bird a duck by it's quack.

vgeek 5y ago
Exactly. I used to consider academia as a separate entity from the private sector, thinking it was full of altruistic individuals wanting to further the knowledge of humanity. Then I started seeing that most colleges operate as tax-exempt businesses with different marketing strategies, products and target consumers. They're just layers of bureaucracy while those delivering the most value (professors) regularly get treated rather poorly (pay, job security, responsibilities, etc.) while the administrators soak up all of the benefits. How do the objectives get shifted back towards learning rather than building new stadiums and student centers?
- netizen-936824 5y ago
  In my experience its split within the university itself, with most of the actual academics being lower paid and about furthering knowledge and teaching. The other administrative departments are the ones with questionable utility and motives, its like they're being taken over by MBAs
  - ishjoh 5y ago
    It's not just MBAs it's M*, I have a close friend who works in the administration for a well known university, her department administration will not hire any junior person that doesn't have a masters degree, it doesn't particularly matter what masters degree they have, just as long as they have one. In addition to requiring a masters degree, my friends admin department is way over staffed, having come from private industry my friend is shocked at how little people do. My friend has a boss whose screen they can see, and estimates that the boss puts in roughly 15mins of work per day and spends the rest of the time on Twitter & Facebook. My friend estimates that the headcount is roughly 3 times more than it would be in private industry

vondur 5y ago

Just a casual looks shows that salaries in the Social Work field don't pay that well. I'm not sure how getting a Masters Degree will help someone. I see this in some other fields here at the University I work at. Students will get a degree that has a limited job outlook, and in order to actually get a job in that field, they believe getting a Masters will help them out in the long run, but often times does not. If I were in that position, I'd only look at Public Universities where the pricing should be far better than a private University.

jdavis703 5y ago
I’m sure there’s value in a masters social work degree, but not for anyone who wants to do hands-on work. If folks feel they want to do higher level work (i.e. addressing systemic issues that are behind the day-to-day issues social workers help with), then the degree could be useful.
- aidenn0 5y ago
  Pretty sure that an MSW is required to be a social worker in my county; not sure if it's a statewide requirement in CA.
  - jdavis703 5y ago
    What’s the reasoning behind this? Like librarians, firefighters and cops often serve as de-facto social workers… And sure they can’t handle the most complex cases. But a lot of times someone’s problem might boil down to something simple, like they just need shoes or a meal.
    - aidenn0 5y ago
      My guess is it's liability. 99% of the policies that the department of social services has is to cover their asses when they get sued. The remaining 1% sometimes manages to help people as well. I should note that a lot of the work for open cases goes to (lower paid) case-aids, and certain things can be delegated to volunteers (e.g. I've provided transportation to school for kids who were placed in a foster house outside their school district).

renewiltord 5y ago

These degrees are worthless. The fields are worthless. And a constant ongoing propaganda campaign is waged to get people to pay for them. Helping along are an army of useful idiots who will pretend like this is academia when it is pseudoscience packaged up as a program to steal from unknowing young people. It’s time for us to publish expected income based on major and university. “God forbid someone study something for the love of it”. No, god doesn’t forbid shit. But the realities of the fact that you gotta put food in your mouth constrain you. If money isn’t such a big deal, why not just share the data. I’m sure people will say “Oh yeah, I think it’s worth it for me to live my life in undischargeable debt so I can ‘study’ this major at this place and work for minimum wage”.

InitialLastName 5y ago
> The fields are worthless. You realize we're talking about social work here, right? God forbid someone help people with their work rather than find ways to lubricate an advertising delivery system at a FAANG.
- NateEag 5y ago
  Not OP, but I suspect they call the field "useless" based on the belief that social work doesn't achieve its aims, not on the grounds that the aims are bad.
  - BizarroLand 5y ago
    Either that or they're judging the career based on its lifetime potential remuneration and not the internal passion of the pursuer or the external social value it provides. Social workers, like teachers and janitors are vastly undervalued for what they provide (in optimal circumstances).

cm2012 5y ago

Way more of a scam than any bootcamp

paulpauper 5y ago

Low-ranking but expensive private colleges are such a racket, overall. Paying $100k for Brown has a way higher ROI than paying $100k for No-name U.

aidenn0 5y ago
I think the biggest difference in college since I went to school is that the gap between the cost of an elite school and a random state-school has narrowed significantly. I had a friend who paid his way through college with summer construction jobs and graduated with about $10k in debt. People who were willing to work part-time during the school year could graduate debt free. Tuition at an exclusive liberal arts school was 5-10x the cost of tuition at a state school in-state and almost double the cost of a state school out-of-state.
- colinmhayes 5y ago
  UIUC instate total cost is 30k a year, including room/board. If you're working full time and living a poverty lifestyle you can graduate debt free easily enough, especially if you get prestigious internships.
  - aidenn0 5y ago
    Not sure about UIUC, but $3600 in in-state tuition for Purdue in 1999; ~$10k including room/board/books. Out of state was $8k more. Purdue froze the in-state tuition at $10k some years ago, but did so by reducing the number of in-state students that were admitted; they need far more out-of-state (and out-of-country) students to subsidize that each year.
    - ishjoh 5y ago
      I'm happy you included that, my alma matter has also turned to this, the percentage of out of country compared to in state has changed drastically since I went there. I feel bad for the kids applying who in years passed would have been accepted but now aren't because of these perverse incentives.

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sgpl 5y ago

I think the biggest reason why the price is so high (beyond the brand, and the fact that the government policy results in everyone getting whatever loan amount they want) is because they're contractually required to share a huge chunk of that money with 2U (the same company that bought EDx's assets). The article mentions that the old contract stated that about 60% of revenue gets shared with 2U but then there was a revision to the contract so it's not clear what the current figure is but even if they lowered it to 40-55%, that's still a huge chunk of change for basically running ads to target students into the funnel. It's actually sickening that the contract extends to 2030. So USC is only getting $115,000 * .4 = $46,000 which while still high is substantially lower and sounds like a reasonable amount to offer the degree at. I'm not sure why they haven't built out an internal function since and tried to get out of the contract. For the peak year of graduation mentioned (2017, 1500 students), 2U's take at the 60% figure is ginormous. $115k * 1500 students * 0.6. = $103.5 million. Anyway there's so much wrong with what's happening here. EDIT: I just re-read the article, it seems like the 1500 figure is a combination of in-person and online graduates for the year 2017. Still the premise holds true: a 60% take rate is excessive.

bklyn11201 5y ago
The vast majority of elite institutions are completely unwilling to take the risks to capture 100% of the online revenue pie: a) They are unwilling to spend lots of money on upfront content development costs without knowing future revenue. b) They are unwilling to hire a bunch of temporary workers to help spin up new content and then re-allocate them. c) They are unwilling to adopt (aggressive) modern marketing techniques. d) They are unwilling to cold call. e) They are unwilling to maintain call centers. f) They are unwilling to spend millions on FB and Goog ads even if it has positive ROI.
- vgeek 5y ago
  All of these are true except for d and e. I get multiple calls per week some weeks asking for donations from various deparments, having never donated to my college and demonstrated no willingness to do so. If they can panhandle from alumni, why not call prospective students? Too low of an ROI or are they just playing hard to get?

nsxwolf 5y ago

Seems like people have been warned about this stuff for over a decade now and we keep hearing about it. When will students stop taking the bait?

MeinBlutIstBlau 5y ago
When people can make middle class livings again without being shut out of a job for lack of a college degree. My previous job I worked at required a Bachelors in business of any kind. I got it because I worked at the company and basically beat out external candidates even though I didn't have a degree. Know what it paid? $15/hr. This is why people are duped into college degrees.
- strix_varius 5y ago
  I don't have a degree, but I have an excellent job, and I used to consider myself lucky to be a tech-based outlier. But given how much I've paid this year for refinishing hardwood floors, installing gas lines, plumbing, and electrical work, I now wonder if tech is really that unique. The contractors I talk to are booked out for weeks, and I need their expertise much more than they need my business. I'm not convinced that lacking a degree shuts people out of good jobs. My cynical take is that there's a mismatch between what people are willing and able to do, and what activities are valuable. Most people aren't willing to work inside peoples' mouths all day. Dentists make bank. The HN crowd notwithstanding, most people would hate carefully crafting digital products all day. Software devs make bank. Most people aren't willing to crawl underneath houses to hook up potentially-dangerous electric/gas lines. etc.
  - MeinBlutIstBlau 5y ago
    > Most people aren't willing to crawl underneath houses to hook up potentially-dangerous electric/gas lines. etc. In a past life, I tried the general laborer gamit and it's impossible to get a job there too. Simply cause nobody hires you unless it's by word of mouth. So it's even worse than being shut out for not having a degree. So overall, it's no so much that people don't believe that they need a degree, it's the path of least resistance since you can at least get your foot in the door through a company once you pass the minimum qualifications. General labor stuff, good luck getting a job in a specialized field. I tried breaking into HVAC and I couldn't even get an unpaid apprenticeship cause people just won't do it.

woeirua 5y ago

The only way to effectively address the college tuition bubble is going to be for Congress to pass a law that caps the amount of student loans that someone can draw to be proportional to their expected salary over X years on a per-school, per-program basis. That would put a lot of pressure on underperforming programs and schools to produce better value for their students, either by improving outcomes, or by reducing the cost of tuition. Yes, regrettably some programs would go the way of the dodo, but we shouldn't be saddling our kids with crippling debt so that they can do four years of college and end up in the same place they were before they went to college from a career prospective. If people want to spend their own money to study underwater basketweaving, then so be it. Also, federal loans should be extended to vocational training programs under the same stipulations. Edit: the DOE should also have the ability to give programs/schools the death penalty (no loans) if they are found to be manipulating data used for these calculations.

jagraff 5y ago
Instead of a cap, why not just make student loans dischargeable in bankruptcy? Let the market sort out the expected value of degrees based on the expected probability of bankruptcy
Axien 5y ago
Too complicated. I would make a rule that any Bachelors program costing more than 15k is ineligible for student loans. Magically those $60k programs will fall to $15k. The reason college is so expensive is because that is what people are willing to take loans to cover.
- mrep 5y ago
  Then kids from poor parents won't be able to go to the top programs because the top programs won't reduce their rates because they will still be able to get their high fees from rich parents and they won't want to make their school worse at least perceptibly so if they have to cut a bunch of costs.
YetAnotherNick 5y ago
This sounds good on paper but this would just lead to degrees like liberal arts to be removed from the country.

varispeed 5y ago

Is there a point today to get a degree in the IT space? Universities are a thing of the past where the access to quality knowledge is ubiquitous. I mean most of thing that get you a decent job you can learn even on YT for free. Sure you are going to need some self-discipline and a lot of practice but it is perfectly doable. For $115k you could have plenty of funds to hire some pros to mark your home works or give some pointers. I think only advantage of Uni is that you can get connections, but you can also get them by going to local meet ups.

IncRnd 5y ago

https://archive.md/wPRPz https://archive.md/wPRPz

999900000999 5y ago

Ehh eh. I went to a CSU for like 6k a year. If you want to be elitist and attend the most expensive school possible, you have to eventually pay for it. > Ms. Fowler, a 2018 graduate, enjoyed the program but owes $307,000 in total student-loan debt, including about $200,000 from the master’s degree. She said she earns $48,000 as a community mental-health therapist in Mount Pleasant, Iowa. This translates into paying 300k to feel prestigious. At dinner parties she gets to tell everyone about how she's a USC grad. Adults have a right to make poor choices. That said, having a hard cap of 100k unless enrolling in a high paid field ( Dr , Lawyer, anything that requires a state sanctioned license) would be a good idea. The problem with Student Loan forgiveness is it would typically help the highest paid Americans. Most people with 100k plus in loans also make very good money. Why in God's name would you go 300k in debt to make 50k ? I see the same problem with boot camps, instead of accepting that building a six-figure career just takes a while, people want a shortcut. I got to six-figure figures without even having a BA, but it took a long time in a lot of very hard work. Actually it only took me about 3 years from dropping out of college to my first six-figure job, but I was programming at least 40 hours a week back then. This was after work of course. Even now I'm off and happiest when I'm building my side projects.

908B64B197 5y ago
> This translates into paying 300k to feel prestigious. At dinner parties she gets to tell everyone about how she's a USC grad. With an online degree? Why would anyone brag about that?
- barry-cotter 5y ago
  With a USC degree? Why would anyone brag about that? Snobbery is fractal. People who went to elite schools look down on places that are very good, like USC.
  - 908B64B197 5y ago
    USC is a great university. It's bragging to have graduated from what looks like an obvious cash cow program that I'm skeptical of. All online, no cap on enrollment and full price. Should raise red flags.

TheMagicHorsey 5y ago

It's the degree that matters as much as (or more than) the institution. If you get a degree in a field that has low barriers of entry, few employers (or only a monopoly employer such as the state), and no opportunity to freelance, then you will not get high wages.

TimPC 5y ago

Degrees are often used as proxies for an IQ test. To get into school X you must be at least Y smart. As long as we ban IQ tests for employment employers are going to keep using this as the best practical proxy. It’s going to have these kinds of bad effects where people need to get $115k degrees to get a $50k job since some people will do so despite the nonsensical ROI. We need to remove the law banning IQ tests in job interviews and let employers test for the kinds of things they currently proxy by university degree.

_red 5y ago
> As long as we ban IQ tests for employment employers are going to keep using this as the best practical proxy. I Thats probably true to a degree, however I think the system will breakdown this decade. Given current inflation rates, anyone with an IQ >120 will soon see that the debt/benefit ratio is becoming unworkable. The last 2 employees my company hired actually game via github - we were using an open-source repo that someone had made and eventually reached out and asked him if he wanted to consult for us and add some features to his code...that lead to an ongoing basic permanent consulting gig.
- go_blue_13 5y ago
  Doesn't inflation mean that nominal debt is less painful to hold? ie I go $100k into debt for a degree, but 5 years down the line that $100k only has $50k buying power (in original year terms), so its easier to pay off?
  - eindiran 5y ago
    Yes inflation does mean exactly that, but maybe OP meant interest rates (which I believe have been trending up of late).
nprz 5y ago
The world's most intelligent people can't figure out a way to make a 50k salary without spending 300k on education?
5y ago

parm289 5y ago

Perhaps a bit off topic, but seeing the breadth of general discussion about online CS masters programs in this thread, figured I'd ask the HN crowd: How is a program like the Penn MCIT Online degree[0] viewed by engineering and product hiring teams in industry? I am looking at transitioning from venture capital investing to SWE (and potentially product, given my business background) and this seems like a good option to facilitate that change - education in CS fundamentals (vs. a bootcamp) but still a reasonably short/practical program (10 courses). Curious if there are engineers/PMs here that have gone through MCIT or similar to pivot into software from another field? Or, if any hiring managers here have hired graduates from these online degree programs and have insight/advice? [0]: https://online.seas.upenn.edu/degrees/mcit-online/ https://online.seas.upenn.edu/degrees/mcit-online/

autokad 5y ago
I can't speak of the online degree, but the MCIT program is pretty good. I graduated from the standard CS but many of my friends were in the MCIT degree. Given they came from more varied backgrounds, I actually thought the student body was more impressive. However, I dont know how all of this online stuff is going to effect things. I would just show up to wharton classes and wait for them to not kick me out, but online ... no chance. You also miss out on all the great conversations and doing study groups at the library, etc. The program is strong, and it will help you get lots of interviews, but I'd do what ever possible to do the in person degree. I c an recommend good DS classes at the school if you are interested in that topic
EduToss 5y ago
Throwaway as have done work slightly related to this industry. I looked in to MCIT online but the outcomes appeared to be very mediocre. One of the testimonials was a student who got a job in sales at a tech company. A big tell is if you go to their outcomes page it is a bit embarrassing in the lack of anything to boast about. https://online.seas.upenn.edu/degrees/mcit-online/outcomes/ https://online.seas.upenn.edu/degrees/mcit-online/outcomes/ First testimonial: "Halfway through her first year in MCIT Online, Xunjing Wu is considering applying for a product management role." Pay $26,000 to consider applying for a role.

autokad 5y ago

I dont understand how online degrees cost so much. When I taught, I was paid around 10-15k$. I had 25 students paying 6600$ tuition + fees. I get that the 15000$<<165,000$ is because of infrastructure, etc, but online? really?

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tapatio 5y ago

This makes me sad.

rayiner 5y ago

We don’t talk enough about how universities are scamming young people and ruining their lives. Even the best universities operate these cash cow diploma mills. How do they get away with it? People are outraged at payday lenders or whatever. How many people do you know with a payday loan? How many with student debt and a worthless degree? We’re socialized not to talk about it. But it seems like half the people in my law school said they were there because their undergrad degree was worthless. But they keep feeding the beast by suckering the next cohort.