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Tech compensation in 2021

• VectorLock 5y ago
  I wonder how having so many companies moving to remote-work are changing this equation. I've been asking people how much they'd take a pay cut to go for full-remote and most people say 10% is a no-brainer.
  • websap 5y ago
    Nah! I wouldn't take a pay cut to go remote. In fact, I'd expect the following: 1. Yearly stipend to upgrade my workplace. 2. Quarterly paid trips to meet my teammates either at off-sites or conferences.
    • colinmhayes 5y ago
      The company doesn't need you. Plenty of people will take a paycut to not live in HCOL.
• unobatbayar 5y ago
  Has anyone gotten rich from their salary alone? If your salary goes up, so does your spending/lifestyle?
  • diskzero 5y ago
    Lot's of people can get rich from their salary alone. I know many Silicon Valley workers who chose to live more frugally, invest in properties like duplexes, town homes, etc. and then rent and improve them and increase their net worth that way. When I was at Apple, they would do a 100% 401k match. Is being really rich at 65 good enough for you? That is one way to do it. Rich is relative, right? How rich is rich enough? Spending seems to find a way to consume the income of a lot of people. There is always a nicer BMW/Audi/Tesla/Mercedes to buy. You can spend $300 on a pair of jeans. Spend a few hours at Neiman Marcus in Palo Alto and look at the prices. You can buy better and better seats at the ballet, symphony, baseball game. Business and first class plane tickets become mandatory. Look at the watches people wear. This is what happens as your income increases. There is always a way to spend and consume more and you will find a way to justify it. Believe me, I know.
• xupybd 5y ago
  Wow I work in NZ and with about 9 years exp I'm only just above the equivalent of $60k USD. I think I need to move.
  • andrewisaburden 5y ago
    That's pretty low for that long experience even in NZ, what's your role and tech stack at the moment? Maybe I can find a referral for you if you want to stay in NZ. There are also Australian companies hiring remote that pay much better than that (e.g. Atlassian and Zapier,).
    • mikeywazowski 5y ago
      Hey I just checked your profile - how did you get experience with both Laravel/PHP and C#/.NET? I'm currently working with Laravel, and I like it but would prefer to get into C#/.NET. Looking at job listings, most places seem to say that experience with C# is required. Do I just need to keep looking, or are these companies possibly more open minded regarding previous experience than they appear?
      • andrewisaburden 5y ago
        I worked at a company that used both. Apply at jobs even if you don't have experience in the specific language, most of the time your fundamentals should carry you. If there's a specific role you really want, then make a side project on GitHub in the language you want to have experience in, and that can help get past any HR person that's just looking for a keyword on your CV.
  • mikeywazowski 5y ago
    Ah haha are you me? My situation is exactly the same - your comment makes me feel much better that I'm not the only one! A few weeks ago I talked to a recruiter who confirmed that I'm being underpaid. Since then I've struggled to stay motivated, but I also really hate job hunting/interviewing etc. I'm technically self employed, working for a single client, so I'm considering telling him that I'm going to take Fridays off. If he doesn't like that idea I'll start job hunting for real.
• throwaway890u 5y ago
  FYI: Show off your TC Timeline https://www.teamblind.com/post/Show-off-your-TC-Timeline-qqiJgOTZ https://www.teamblind.com/post/Show-off-your-TC-Timeline-qqi...
  • deleted 5y ago
    [deleted]
• floxy 5y ago
  For someone who is way out of this loop, what does a typical day look like for someone who make $300k at a "tech" job? $600k? Is it actually programming intensive? Like the guy who wrote the default calculator app on the iphone was making that kind of a salary? Or are you managing teams of programmers? Architecing? Is it something like 16 hour days are the norm?
  • Jensson 5y ago
    I worked at Google. $300k is a few years out of college if you do ok and get promoted once. You write code and maybe onboard a junior now and then. 8 hour workdays, but nobody checks so you can work less if you want. So it is just a regular coding job.
  • pcmoney 5y ago
    Honestly it is not too different than working at a small product shop or consultancy. Except: - typically less stress and fewer hours since everyone you work with is much more competent on average (def still have some dumb dumbs or the occasional psycho though) - You have a deeper “bench” so if you are an elite performer (which you tend to be if you go small tech co to bug tech co) then there are more like you and you are not single threaded on everything. (Downside: you are much more replaceable and being “the guy” is much harder, very noticeable at the Sr/staff/+ levels) - You code way less. Much fewer “at bats” a lot more reading, researching, working across teams, figuring out the best solution, having it reviewed and then a relatively quick implementation. Note: the 300k to 600k jump can happen shockingly easy (without promo) if RSU grants appreciate well and refreshers are generous. Doing it the “hard way” (assuming RSUs stay flat) is hard. You need to design, convince others to build, and help build truly impactful systems AND make sure you get a big chunk of the credit.
  • overrun11 5y ago
    Your mistake is thinking these are substantially different jobs than any other. Don't fall into the Just World fallacy where you try to justify why compensation is so high by assuming there must be some hidden tradeoff. The tech job market just isn't very efficient.
  • habosa 5y ago
• bittercynic 5y ago
  I work as a "tech" guy at a school, and earn WAY less than what anyone in this thread would probably consider a liveable wage, but have good health and retirement benefits. Earning a modest, but reasonable living and having some stability is not an entirely bad way to go.
  • compiler-guy 5y ago
    As long as you understand the trade offs and are doing it with your eyes wide open, more power to you.
• btheshoe 5y ago
  The best way of doing this is to just use levels.fyi and ask on Blind (which is a toxic place, but a bit of toxicity is needed to maximize tc).
  • claudiulodro 5y ago
    Those really only cover giant tech co's though. Clearly it would be better and more accurate to get real data points, but I think the approach the article describes works well if there isn't a bunch of public data for a company already.
    • imajoredinecon 5y ago
      I got a reasonable amount of value out of skimming Blind during a recent switch from big tech to a more niche role. The amount of signal definitely drops (as does the signal-to-noise ratio) but it was still useful to a certain extent.
    • enahs-sf 5y ago
      The outliers are pretty tough to get significant data for. Also my sense is startups tend to pay towards the 50-75th percentile of radford (read: not great) cash comp and balance with equity lotto tickets that the author values at zero. While startup equity is obviously not worth nothing, he is correct in noting it’s quite tricky to negotiate since there’s an inherent information asymmetry there as well.
  • websap 5y ago
    Why is this being downvoted? Levels.fyi and Blind are great tools. Blind is toxic because posters are obsessive about their TC, but I feel that's a side-affect of not letting people talk about money in their real lives, so they need to be anonymous and vent.
  • ilaksh 5y ago
    Maybe Glassdoor.
  • VRay 5y ago
    Blind is a real hive of scum and villainy, but at least you can get real numbers from real people
• Etheryte 5y ago
  While I don't have doubts about this being a good way to find rough outlines for compensation, I'm yet to find a reliable source of data for Europe. Has anyone else had better luck?
  • beaconstudios 5y ago
    in the UK, junior is £20-40k, mid-level is around £40-60k, lead can be around £60-100k. Very rough numbers, and adjust upwards slightly for London. The big money is in contracting in the UK, which would be our accessible FAANG-equivalent.
    • Aromasin 5y ago
      Either contracting, or alternatively, consulting. Companies like Cambridge Consulting and et al (please correct me if I'm wrong, I only know this through word of mouth) earn more in line with our US counterparts supposedly. Additionally, our country is much more focused on financial services. You can make 2-3x the average engineer salary there. The rest of the market seem content paying far below, and also content having an eternal manpower shortage as a result it seems. The vast majority of engineers I graduated with have ended up in sales engineer roles to be honest, where they can earn commission more in line with the salary they deserve at the cost of doing something they don't necessarily enjoy. It baffles me that companies are quite content to pay a half decent tech recruiter 70-80k, but continue to offer jobs to the engineers they are trying to hire at nearly half that.
      • beaconstudios 5y ago
        I wouldn't say more in line necessarily, unless you work at the big banks in a profit center. Contractors can make anywhere from £300 to about £750 a day unless they land on an extremely profitable niche, which is great money for the UK but not the kind of insane rates SV engineers can get. Of course, cost of living is lower too, especially up north where I am.
        • zd123 5y ago
• zz865 5y ago
  > Chris can expect to make $300k at a non-FAANG company, but nearly double that if they’re willing to compromise on that “no-FAANG” stance Is that really a good rule of thumb? FAANG pays double non-FAANG?
  • rodonn 5y ago
    It's not a good rule of thumb. There definitely are some tech companies that pay less than half of FAANG (especially among small startups and eng roles in less tech centric companies), but there are also a lot of companies that have similar salaries to FAANG.
    • rodonn 5y ago
      Levels.fyi has a nice chart showing salary ranges at different levels of seniority for a variety of companies https://www.levels.fyi/charts.html https://www.levels.fyi/charts.html
  • bpodgursky 5y ago
    Base comp probably... but the OP is discounting equity almost entirely: > and those are likely to be the kind of complex instruments that I treat as a gamble, not guaranteed salary Idk, opinions vary, but the majority of my early startup total comp in my career has been equity payout. Maybe I just got super lucky, but I think this is too firm a stance and tips the scales against non-FAANG too heavily.
    • VRay 5y ago
      Ah, I’ve worked with a lot of people who didn’t hit it big with stock options and suffered ruinous tax liabilities in some cases.. Zero is probably too little, but if you’re being paid way under-market in cash and having to dip into that to exercise options and pay taxes, zero might actually be a good middle ground between the best and worst cases
      • bpodgursky 5y ago
• KronisLV 5y ago
  As someone who works in an Eastern European country, i also did a writeup on how much i've made over the years and how that figure has changed, while working for a local company: https://blog.kronis.dev/articles/on-finances-and-savings https://blog.kronis.dev/articles/on-finances-and-savings In short, this year i'll probably make around 18k Euros, in total. I guess that just goes to show how different the situation is depending on where you live and where you're employed.
  • gpt5 5y ago
    It's crazy to me that you can basically make a lifetime of earning doing the same job in Silicon Valley for one year
    • azinman2 5y ago
      Except the cost of living is wayyy lower
      • gpt5 5y ago
        Does it matter if you are comparing one year of living in the valley? You don’t need to buy a house for that.
        • dllthomas 5y ago
          It matters a whole heck of a lot, but not enough to invalidate the statement.
        • albertsondev 5y ago
          It does when a massive portion of your supposed profits are eaten by a 4-5 figure monthly rent on a flat.
          • 0x0nyandesu 5y ago
            Eh you can find a two bedroom outside the city for like 3. You're still making like 2-3k more even with the higher cost of living.
• VRay 5y ago
  Man, every time I think I’ve finally caught up to the market rate, I find out I’m behind again I’m a senior FAANG coder making 350k TC, and it looks like I should be able to net 400-600k at this level if I go to Apple or Google. Hoo boy, looks like it’s leetcode time again…
  • websap 5y ago
    500K is the new 350K in 2021.
    • VRay 5y ago
      I wish I could get a company to just give me 15 weeks of paid vacation instead.. alas
      • aynyc 5y ago
        Ding! That’s what I want!
      • quickthrower2 5y ago
        Easy. Quit, take 15 weeks, start a new job.
        • deleted 5y ago
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        • deleted 5y ago
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      • lotsofpulp 5y ago
        Work for 15 years, save and invest $5M plus, and then one you have F you money, work according to your terms.
  • vincentmarle 5y ago
    > I should be able to net 400-600k at this level if I go to Apple or Google. Hoo boy, looks like it’s leetcode time again I hate studying leetcode just for these interviews, but with these numbers it seems foolish to not put myself through hell...
• paxys 5y ago
  There's a huge difference between early stage and mid-late stage private companies. For the latter, you are almost always getting RSUs rather than options, so you don't have to pay taxes out of pocket to exercise them. It's also wrong to automatically consider all stock grants to be worth $0 just because you can't immediately sell them. If Stripe or Databricks offers you a million dollars worth of shares today it'll be foolish to say no.
  • deleted 5y ago
    [deleted]
  • gonehome 5y ago
    Agreed - Silicon Valley exists in part because of 500k-5M$ payouts to employees happening all of the time from private options. Not trying to value that is a mistake.
    • m_ke 5y ago
      That's the myth that keeps the whole thing going. For every successful exit that makes employees rich there's a 100 failures and acquihires. You should judge these deals based on expected value.
      • SavantIdiot 5y ago
        Exactly! The failure rate of startups hasn't moved out of the 90% range ... ever. https://www.failory.com/blog/startup-failure-rate https://www.failory.com/blog/startup-failure-rate
        • tashoecraft 5y ago
          And if you do happen to be part of the 10% that make it odds are you won’t get paid out as much as if you had just gone and worked for a FAANG.
          • SavantIdiot 5y ago
• ggregoire 5y ago
  > Chris can expect to make $300k at a non-FAANG company, but nearly double that if they’re willing to compromise on that “no-FAANG” stance Ok but aren't the expectations for a Staff+ way higher at FAANG than at non-FAANG? Or we assume Chris already got the offer from FAANG for a Staff+ role and so it's just a personal choice? Those articles and discussions about salary always assume everybody is able to work at FAANG, or that a title at non-FAANG automatically transfers to the same title at FAANG.
  • paxys 5y ago
    Exactly. Someone saying they are Staff+ because of their current role at an Akron startup and actually getting an offer for Staff+ from Google or Facebook are very different situations.
    • skeeter2020 5y ago
      what does staff even mean when in his previous example someone with 5 years experience is "mid career"?
      • alpha_squared 5y ago
        At many of the large tech companies, most technical employees will reach a title along the lines of "Senior Software Engineer" or "Senior Member of Technical Staff" and struggle to get promoted past that. At those companies, that title is considered an acceptable "terminal" career level, meaning they wouldn't be considered as stalled or be pushed out. They'll still be plenty productive and generally considered as senior developers. However, to get promoted from there requires a slightly expanded set of skills and experience. That next level is often "Staff Software Engineer". The highest technical titles that exist at most of those companies are "Principal Software Engineer" and "Distinguished Engineer". Typically, much less than 5% of technical staff reach that level (I'd estimate 2%, but unsure). However, ~75% (random, plausible number - not actually sure) are "Senior Software Engineer" or below.
      • Jensson 5y ago
        It is a measure of skill. Senior is when you are good enough to lead a team with your technical skills, staff is when you can lead a team of seniors. Typical people reach senior level after 5 years and never reach staff level, so a typical engineer would still be senior even after 20 years. It is a bit silly to label those senior, but that is how the industry decided to label things. If your company is more strict then it just make their engineers look worse than they are, it is a great way to make engineers less likely to get poached but it isn't great for those engineers since it will look like people with 20 years of experience and great track record stagnated after 5.
• rootusrootus 5y ago
  In other news, if you aren't in the valley or working for one of the big tech companies, you're probably making 100-150K as a mid/senior developer. There's a pretty sizable leap.
  • Rapzid 5y ago
    Probably but not necessarily. Don't aspire to be most software engineers if you don't want to get paid like most software engineers haha. I'll add a data point. I live in a 90 COL index city(I don't live in a 90 area though) and will clear >300k this year total cash comp at a non-FAANG company working remote. Earlier this year I had a 200k base salary offer for a staff full stack eng role at a startup(that just raised a bunch of money). The money is out there.
    • moneywoes 5y ago
      How many YOE do you have? Any suggestions for finding these re mote jobs?
      • Rapzid 5y ago
        Well, just about everyone is hiring remote now. I have some general advice and that is perception is reality. Starting with the resume and focusing on outcomes and value add actions taken, to talking the talk in interviews for the next position. Adopt patio's mindset. I'm not a "programmer". Programming is one tool I use to create value for the business. I have other tools and perhaps the most valuable of which is my mind; decision making. Anecdote; I am leaving my company for smaller pastures but I turned down that staff pos I mentioned. I'm starting at a new place but was a bit lazy during the interview process with selling myself(was only talking to a couple places and was going to take time off if I didn't find a place I was interested in). Got low balled, maybe under leveled, and took the job anyway haha. I'm a staff full stack at one company worth 200k base, but perhaps not here. Perception is reality. P.S. I'm also just really lucky in many regards. I got really early(just after high school) resume and business thinking advice from a good friend who is an MBA, for one.
    • 5y ago
• ilaksh 5y ago
  I honestly find it hard to believe that there are a lot of jobs available offering those kinds of salaries. Especially when we are talking about working remotely from outside the Bay area and for average size companies. I think there are multiple tiers as far as salary. He is really describing the top two tiers. But the majority of jobs are not quite in those top two tiers.
• Zaheer 5y ago
  Co-Founder of Levels.fyi here. As Jacob points out, the market is extremely hot right now. It feels like salaries are inching up slightly each month. We're working on improving how numbers are updated and working on weighing recent salaries more heavily. Would really encourage everyone to submit their compensation on the site. We also have some relevant discussions with recruiters from FANG type companies on our team in our community.
  • paxys 5y ago
    I haven't been able to get a clear answer for this so hoping you can help – what are companies' appetites for matching existing stock grants for senior hires? Say someone gets a FAANG or "hot startup" offer, but has $800K worth of stock (mainly due to price appreciation) at their current company vesting in the next year, is a direct match out of the question?
    • Zaheer 5y ago
      Some companies are willing to match stock grants. We've even seen some companies up-level candidates (to meet the higher compensation band) to nudge them out of their current roles where they've experienced a lot of stock growth. That said, there's still probably a cap to it, it'd be really hard even for a Facebook to get someone away from a multi-million dollar vest as an IC. Also keep in mind that all companies won't value options / ISO / private shares as much as public companies.
  • reilly3000 5y ago
    Thank for your work! I’d be really interested to see YoY trend data for the aggregate and for the same level. Also if there is ‘level inflation’ happening over time.
    • Zaheer 5y ago
      Will see if we can include that in the annual report!
  • Invictus0 5y ago
• i1856511 5y ago
  How many people go into programming now simply for the money? More than 70%? What percentage of programmers would still be programmers if competitive salary was not a concern in life, and people were free to simply pursue their passions?
  • goodpoint 5y ago
    That explain why CV-driven development has been aggressively overtaking good development. Similarly, a lot of the original FLOSS culture has been overshadowed by the "github-is-my-showroom" model. Optimizing for github stars and so on.
  • aynyc 5y ago
    My informal poll last year of my friends suggest a 50-60% drop rate. I asked about 30 friends who are still coding for work. Almost 20 of them said they would not code anymore if they can find equivalent salary.
    • i1856511 5y ago
      Helpful anecdote, thank you. It sounds like you found the answer to my question to be, "most of them"!
      • aynyc 5y ago
        The problem is that they can’t find jobs as IC to make $200-250K a year. Unless they go to management, but that’s another career track they need to learn and move to. I think software engineering is one of the highest paid job as IC other than maybe doctors.
  • seoulmetro 5y ago
    Outside the US this is more like 10-20%. Americans care about money a lot. American SWE care about money even more.
    • pcmoney 5y ago
• zz865 5y ago
  I'm not sure if its good to get in now while the market is hot or wait for January when it'll really take off.
  • SCUSKU 5y ago
    What's happening in January that would make things take off?
    • VirusNewbie 5y ago
      Usually companies get a new budget/headcount allocation. I doubt it will be relevant to FAANG as much as larger companies that don't have as advanced of a pipeline, but for the non FAANG companies winter is the worst time to find a job.
    • zz865 5y ago
      There are so many jobs right now they wont get filled, so people will have to pay more just to get anyone. Plus people are quitting their jobs to move to new roles and those spaces will need filling. OTOH there could be a lot of people out of the job market right now which could start looking for work in the new year. And the market could crash.
• rhacker 5y ago
  The actual pay isn't going up. The value of the dollar is dropping very quickly.
• deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
• zuhayeer 5y ago
  Cool to see Levels.fyi mentioned here – a lot of people don't know about our verified salary stream newsletter as well, but it's a neat way to keep tabs on the market: https://levels.fyi/verified/ https://levels.fyi/verified/ as well as our community (in beta): https://levels.fyi/community/ https://levels.fyi/community/ Last salary stream issue: https://email.levels.fyi/t/v/93ecf861-3d0c-47e9-84af-757bcc9c19ca/bf07706a-563a-42e2-a551-3414ba7d426d https://email.levels.fyi/t/v/93ecf861-3d0c-47e9-84af-757bcc9...
  • sbuccini 5y ago
    Thanks for building this product. I used your compensation negotiating service and you helped up my offer by more than 100x what I paid y'all. Keep up the great work!
• helsinki 5y ago
  > What should Robin, Chris, or you do with this information? Work at a hedge fund.
  • rgrmrts 5y ago
    Some big tech company salaries are higher than equivalent hedge funds salaries. Also, work life balance is better. I know some folks more senior than me at top hedgefunds making less than I am.
    • the_only_law 5y ago
      > I know some folks more senior than me at top hedgefunds making less than I am. Where is the money in hedge funds? I look at salaries on glass door i nuthatch industry and even the highest are pretty disappointing.
      • rgrmrts 5y ago
        I think it’s really only the executives or hedge fund managers making the real money
        • the_only_law 5y ago
          Interestingly, I tried doing a search on a job board for “Hedge Fund Manager”, and there were virtually no results with most not looking like quote what I was looking for. I guess these are not publicly posted positions available to the general public.
• throwaway2016a 5y ago
  20 years experience, two books under my belt, and lead architect (with a CTO title) on several good sized projects and most I have ever gotten in $175k... every time I see an article like this, I think I am doing something "very wrong" I live about 40 miles outside of Boston. Edit: Looking at levels.fyi for Boston that actually puts me above the median[1]. Why the heck is Boston so low compared to other markets? Edit 2: Boston, MA and Denver, CO on Levels.fyi are both a median $159k but due to cost of living, that $159k in Denver is the same as $211k in Boston. I.e. adjusted for the cost of living, Denver pays 25% better. [1] https://www.levels.fyi/Salaries/Software-Engineer/Greater-Boston-Area/ https://www.levels.fyi/Salaries/Software-Engineer/Greater-Bo...
  • sokoloff 5y ago
    The money is out there and $175K/yr is nowhere near the top of the market for your experience in the Boston area. That’s not to say you’re doing something wrong if you’re optimizing for the many things other than money that are worthwhile.
    • throwaway2016a 5y ago
      Not near the top, no, but according to the numbers it is median. I'm sure there are larger salaries out there but this article makes it sound like it is normal. Which in a roundabout way was my point.
      • lotsofpulp 5y ago
        Median is not a useful measure in these matters. Deciles, or even quintiles, would actually be useful.
  • zamfi 5y ago
    You are doing something very wrong. Look at that median and ask yourself: Why would you compare yourself to median income if you have 20 yoe and two books? That is far more than the median SWE has accomplished. You are paying a lot in opportunity cost for whatever you are doing now. Of course, it could be worth it! That’s for you to decide.
• erehweb 5y ago
  Say you have $400K of public company stock that vests over 4 years. How much is this worth? (ignoring time value of money for now). $400K? But if the stock tanks then you likely have the option to get another job, so you are less affected by the downside than the upside. How should that factor into your calculation?
  • m_ke 5y ago
    Tech stocks have done really well the last 10 years and will probably continue to do so. People who joined Snapchat a few years ago made over a million a year thanks to the appreciation.
  • MrKristopher 5y ago
    It would be hard to find a job that pays $400k cash (yes I'm aware of Netflix) so there isn't much need to put a specific cash value on the RSU component for comparison. You're typically comparing two job offers which both have an RSU component. RSUs have a volatility component (so discount the value for that, depending on the value of the grant vs your net worth), but also RSUs generally appreciate over the vest (it's not too common for a stock to be down over a 4-year period) which is a plus.
  • sharpy 5y ago
    Conversely, it can work out great for you. For example, Amazon stock used to go up 30-40% a year reliably. Compensation model was "conservative" and estimated 15% a year. So if you stayed at Amazon for a while, you could be paid very very well, thanks to stock appreciation. For the risk adverse, a strategy is to sell the stocks as they vest, effectively treating it as cash. Companies will also issue additional RSU, if stock tanks too badly, as they'd be losing people otherwise. Personally, I worked for Amazon and Microsoft for a number of years, and have kept all my RSU. It has worked out great for me (at least on paper).
  • iooi 5y ago
    It depends how frequently it vests and what percentage vests every period. Amazon is notorious for vesting more of the grant towards the latter part of the vesting period with yearly vesting, while companies like Google are actually frontloading the grant and vesting monthly.
• headphoneswater 5y ago
  it's weird it looks like I make half of what I could as a senior, espcially in a 'hard' algorithm heavy domain but I still oddly don't want to work for them, half the pay is still decently middle class and I'm very happy overall there's also the internal argument I've had in that most of them don't really do anything interesting (usually things that were good ideas years ago)and even if they did odds that I'd be near what was are slim
• SavantIdiot 5y ago
  Wow! That's so much money for senior/L6 FAANG. 10 years ago my last non-contractor gig as a Grade 8 Intel Senior Staff Microprocessor Engineer (or 9? just below principal. I forget.) in Santa Clara pulled $200k including bonus and options, 170k if it was a shit year for bonuses. And that included a 4 year stretch with 0% raises for everyone in the early 2000's. That's with -15- years experience. I guess in 2010 that was pretty good? I dunno, they routinely fucked everyone except the principals and above, who have very strange compensation systems, but no one had the guts to leave: this was during the no-hire collusion for which I got a settlement check of $10k, which was peanuts compared to the impact.
  • loeg 5y ago
    Yeah, all of the above. The market was a lot less hot in 2010 on the back of the 2008 financial crisis; Intel is just kind of a shitty employer all around; and illegal no-hire collusion didn't help.
• moneywoes 5y ago
  How long will these last? I'm just in the beginning of my career and am deathly afraid of a dotcom type situation where my earning potential is harmed over the rest of my career.
  • ahmadss 5y ago
    dotcom was a completely different situation. VC money flowed to companies that had no meaningful revenue. FAANG, on the other hand, are printing billions of dollars per month.
• e0m 5y ago
  I'd also add https://tldroptions.io/ https://tldroptions.io/ as a quick and dirty potential options valuator. That being said, I agree with the author's default assumption that private options should be valued at zero, especially for financial planning purposes. At the same time, it is this hockey stick that is a strong part of the allure of smaller startups. There's an entirely separate levels.fyi equivalent that needs to be made for the amount of equity employees get at various stages of a company. It should also note that the size size of the exit is inversely proportional to the odds that it'll happen.
  • jacobian 5y ago
    Thanks for the pointer - that's a great resource. I'm adding a link to it to the article.
• quickthrower2 5y ago
  Is hiring outside the US remotely so fraught with difficulty it’s worth paying extra 100,000s?
  • diskzero 5y ago
    Are you talking about hiring a remote team and managing them? The answer may very well be yes for organizations that don't know how to properly communicate and utilize tools and methods to manage them. There is an entire middle management class in Silicon Valley that exists to manage engineers in person. Their day consists of many meetings, meetings with their team, cross-functional teams, visiting you and your co-workers in your office/cube and managing your work flow. Their work is not without value. This model has produced most of the software and hardware that we use daily. When you introduce remote teams, you introduce a type of friction that does not work with this model. All of sudden managers are not able to call an in-person meeting. They have to get up early or stay up late to coordinate. There is a perception that the remote team is slow, or not responsive. I have been in meetings at Apple where Steve would excoriate teams in France for not moving as fast as he wanted. This was not the case, but he could not micro-manage them in person. The future is going to belong to companies that can master processes and technologies to coordinate teams across time zones, languages and countries. Warehousing employees in Mountain View, Cupertino, South Lake Union, Manhattan, Frankfurt, etc. seems ridiculous once you begin to understand how to co-ordinate dispersed teams. There is value in having teams work together and I like working in person with other people. The whole company town aspect of Apple/Facebook/Google/Oracle/etc. campus' seems so bizarre to me however. I just can't understand the benefit given the toll on the lives of the workers.
    • hnfong 5y ago
      > The whole company town aspect of Apple/Facebook/Google/Oracle/etc. campus' seems so bizarre to me however. I just can't understand the benefit given the toll on the lives of the workers. I wonder whether it's mostly risk aversion rather than an intentional "feature". The execs of FAANG _know_ that if they spend more money and put more people to work on adding features, acquiring users and expanding to under developed markets, they'll more-or-less reliably rake in billions for themselves and the company. Most companies are experiencing double digit growth, so the upsides of decentralizing the offices is limited (even if say you reduce 50% of staffing costs, it's still not that great of a deal compared with potential lost growth and lost profits), and since nobody else has done it on a large scale before, the risks are (perceived to be) high and nobody wants to risk killing the goose that lays golden eggs.
• diskzero 5y ago
  These compensation amounts reflect what I am seeing in the market. Whenever I see these amounts, like many others, I am somewhat amazed, but then I stop, look at my own history and reflect on the environment that supports paying a Staff engineer $300k a year. Here is my story, which may or may not shed some light on working in high tech in Silicon Valley. I was part of a couple of successful startups in Portland, OR and was convinced by a venture capitalist to join a software company as VP of Engineering in 1997. I was paid $225,000, given a bonus schedule and a percentage of the proceeds of the sale should one occur. For a while I flew from Portland to SFO and took a cab to Foster City every week. I eventually moved, trading my unique, top floor apartment with a view of a park for a generic stucco box apartment in Burlingame that cost three times as much. The work was brutal and involved lots of lay-offs, restructuring, working with vendors to avoid defaults and the usual joy of dealing with a company in crisis. It was soul crushing, but the company finally sold and I took my bonus and started another software company in Burlingame. I did various startups, some good, some bad and ended up at Apple at what was called Engineer/Scientist (some number here). I can't remember what the number meant. I was making $145,000 and received 27,000 options priced at $9.00 a share. I bought a really boring townhouse off of Lawrence Expressway for $300,000 that cost $57,000 in 1967. It is jammed into an already dense neighborhood totally devoid of any personality. The very same townhouse just sold for 1.1 million because you can walk to Apple Parc from it. Living in Silicon Valley, especially as a young engineer making $185,000 means living either in San Francisco and commuting, or living in one the fairly identical communities all along 101 in a fairly identical apartment building or renting a house. Maybe you can find a situation that is more unique, or boost your commute time and live in the periphery. The commute is no fun, because you and everybody else is arriving at your various mega-campus' around 9:00 and leaving around 18:00. I often felt like I was going insane. I felt like people were piled on top of me. I would go on two-hour bike rides at lunch everyday into the hills to escape. I was making good money but the "nice" houses in Palo Alto or Woodside were extremely expensive. The cost of living was quite high, so even though one might make a lot, you can expend a lot. When I went out to dinner, everyone around me was talking about their startup, IPO, options, explaining how they were going to tell their early investors to "go pound sand", etc. This is my experience and of course your mileage may vary. You may love the "hustle" the energy and all that entails. I don't know how people manage to raise kids or have a peaceful life there. I am sure it can be done. When I personally think of having to go back to living in Mountain View/Sunnyvale/Santa Clara and commute to the GooglePlex/Apple Parc/Facebook Hacker Way I am overcome by a deep sense of anxiety, dread and nausea. Once again, this is my experience and I understand and value people who love this environment. Please don't be blinded by these high dollar compensation plans. I promise you there is more to life than making this amount to work in Silicon Valley. Please factor in all of the environmental values when you decide to move to Gilroy with your family to work at Facebook. There is definitely a cost.
• nickjj 5y ago
  Are a lot of these 300k-500k TC positions putting in 40 hour work weeks or more? I think that's worth bringing up because it's a huge factor at the end of the day. For example, getting 400k TC but you routinely put in 60-80 hours a week is much different than 40 hours a week. Personally I would much prefer working 30-40 hours a week for X vs 60-80 hours a week for X * 2. The amount of taxes you pay in the X * 2 range are so massive you end up not getting anywhere near a true 2x amount in your bank account but you put in a true 2x amount of hours. Working 70 hours a week as a typical employee role isn't sustainable in my opinion.
  • farnsworth 5y ago
    I think plenty of these people are lying on the internet and um, rounding up a little.
    • Hermitian909 5y ago
      Eh, I helped several people job hunt this year, here are the offers accepted (total comp, not salary, which tends to cap around 200k). None of the people listed have more than 5 years of experience: 200k (fresh grad) 352k 452k 507k 412k
      • nickthemagicman 5y ago
        All at a FAANG? What kind of interview process?
        • Hermitian909 5y ago
          None at FAANG (aside from Netflix, none of the other letters pay top dollar for anything below staff anymore anyway). These were mostly companies that had IPO'd more recently, very late stage startups close to IPO. All had the format: -Hiring manager phone screen -Technical phone screen -(virtual) On Site 3/5 had leetcodes, 2/5 had no leetcode. No leetcode was harder than medium. All had behavioral interviews All but the fresh grad had design interviews For the non leetcode, coding questions two main forms: 1. General line of business code e.g. take some JSON, derive statistics, turn it into new JSON, etc. 2. Bug squash in a new codebase (find the bug, write regression tests)
• eegg7 5y ago
  These articles always undershoot the top end comp. I’m staff+ with ~15 years exp at a FANG like big tech company. I currently make low seven figures. I don’t think I’m unique among my peer group. When you add in refreshers and stock appreciation it gets even higher. Currently remote.
  • paxys 5y ago
    It's because they are estimating new offers given out today. It's understood that people with a few years' tenure could be making a lot more due to stock appreciation, but if you are in the job market today that data point is useless and only messes up the expectations.
    • lostmsu 5y ago
      Are you certain? I imagine if you get an offer, and they really want somebody at your level, they'd have to beat or at least match the TC unless it is Fuchsia or some other hot rod project.
  • aynyc 5y ago
    Do you have a lot of old RSU? I think that’s worth more now?
    • eegg7 5y ago
      I have some which has benefitted me. My TC would be same ballpark without it though.
      • aynyc 5y ago
        Well done, my friend! How’s your WLB?
        • eegg7 5y ago
          Ok now but I definitely paid a price to get here. No free lunch.
• sokoloff 5y ago
  > Adjusting [$400-600K] to Chris’s current location (Bay Area: +42%; Akron: -11%), they might expect to make about half that ($200k-$300k) staying in Akron. That’s not how the adjustments play out. Taking $400K in a 142% market is a $282K unadjusted figure, adjusted down 11% for Akron yields a $251K figure. So call the equivalent Akron range (if there is a such a thing) $250K-$375K which is 25% higher than TFA’s calculation.
  • jacobian 5y ago
    You're right - I was doing my math wrong. I'm fixing it now. Thank you!
• theshadowknows 5y ago
  I’m wondering if I’m just not worth as much money or if I’m not paid as much because I don’t work in California or both, lol. I work for an enormous company. I’ve got about 8 or so years experience. As of right now I’m a sr architect and I work on enterprise-level systems - either designing or enhancing existing processes and platforms. I don’t really code much these days, though I do write a lot of sql, build lots of diagrams, and build a lot of sample requests for various groups when they aren’t quite getting something from the docs. I make 180 TC and live in the north east though not NYC or Boston. That said, I also have a two floor plus fully finished basement home with three bedrooms, four bathrooms, a nice yard, garage, and a nice deck that I can work on when the weather is nice. So, I’m not complaining, I feel like I live comfortably. But man if I had an extra 200k to just throw into savings and investing? Whooo boy…
  • zippergz 5y ago
    Writing SQL and drawing diagrams for enterprise systems inside of a huge company is not what the highly-compensated senior engineers tend to be doing. If you want to make more money, move out of being an “architect” and into being a principal engineer at a tech company (one whose business is making software; not a company that just happens to employ software developers).
    • 0xB31B1B 5y ago
      +1 Its not about diagrams and SQL, its about a bunch of things, that can be broadly related to "making everyone more effective at the work they do", "lead huge company changing projects" and "create enough value to have a budget to hire a large team and build a thing to achieve a business goal"
    • tunesmith 5y ago
      What the heck, principle engineer is considered higher than architect? What about principle architect? I might need a flowchart somewhere that describes all the tech levels above "senior software engineer".
      • 5y ago
• Waterluvian 5y ago
  The beauty of remote work: I make, let’s say somewhere between 100-200k. But because of where I live, this is enough to fill two college funds, pay off a mortgage, let my wife follow her dream of being a full-time mom, and retire by 50. Absolutely need more remote work in this world. There’s so many wonderful places to live that aren’t ridiculously priced.
  • rsuelzer 5y ago
    I've been remote for 5 years. I have been happy to take a 50% reduction in what I could be making. In the past, I would wake up in the morning and find myself willing to pay more money than I would make that day in order to not have to go into work. The economics of that didn't work out. I also work for a mission driven organization that is on a tight budget. I make enough money, but more importantly, I have not had a single day in five years where I didn't want to go to work. That's pretty priceless.
    • Waterluvian 5y ago
      I hear you on that. When I switched to remote I thought “I’d take about a 25% pay cut to be full remote.” Having done it for almost four years I’d probably take a 50% pay cut to stay remote. It’s just completely life altering. Especially given I have two young kids I want to be deeply involved with raising.
      • weatherlight 5y ago
        I completely agree. (largely because of covid), I got to see both my children grow up and then go to elementry school. I wouldn't trade that for anything in the world.
    • greenie_beans 5y ago
      Same, it’s hard reading about these outlandish compensations compared to mission-driven work. But then I remind myself of this.
• bmay 5y ago
  > Bay Area salaries, according to levels.fyi, for these levels range from $190k to $350k. > According to Robert Half, Bay Area salaries are 42% above the national average, so that range translates to $110k-$205k unadjusted. can someone explain the math here? wouldn't this imply an unadjusted range of $134k ($190k/1.42) to $246k ($350k/1.42)?
  • jacobian 5y ago
    You're right: I was doing my math wrong. I'm fixing the math in the article right now. Thanks for the correction!
• topkai22 5y ago
  I don't think 4-5 years experience is Sr level, as used in the Robin example. $100k with 1% of the company seems... OK? The salary is a mid level software engineer is closer to $150k, Chicago should down adjust a bit, so maybe $130k salary in big tech. Realistically, you are looking at $162.5k with bonuses and stock. How much is the startup worth now? She's probably passed on (very roughly) $300k of comp, so if that startup valuation is sitting above $30M she might be close to even and if it provides an exit above $100M she'll have done well. If not, well it was a lottery ticket. As for the other person, Staff+ does not necessarily translate between companies, and especially does not translate from companies in very different cultures to the big tech space. It's not impossible, but just because someone got the title of Staff engineer in one market does not mean they will be able to get that title in another market.
• morelandjs 5y ago
  He’s taking the tail end of a distribution in one geolocation and translating it to another geolocation, but then associating it with the median of that location. This is a mistake and his estimates are inflated. Of course it’s always easy to sell “you’re underpaid” because everyone likes to hear it. If you’re feeling inadequate, realize this is likely way off the mark.
• deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
• Tiktaalik 5y ago
  It's honestly remarkable just how much money the FAANG companies can throw around. What on earth can relatively small private tech shops that can't dangle heaps of RSUs possibly do to compete? Quality of life improvements may be some of the only levers they have available to pull. Generous time off (for NA standards at least), beyond four weeks could lure people. Permanent, flexible WFH and remote work options will be a new one that they can use to differentiate from big public companies that want seats in desks. Lastly potentially 4 day, 32 hour work weeks could be an effective tool. We've seen stories of Eidos Montreal implementing this recently.
  • Jensson 5y ago
    The biggest draw is to not evaluate candidate based on Leetcode, that way you don't have to compete with these top companies and can therefore get quality talent for cheap. It is however much harder to evaluate candidate without leetcode, so you need to be really good at that or you'll end up with a mediocre workforce like most other companies that pays mediocre salaries.
  • the_only_law 5y ago
    > What on earth can relatively small private tech shops that can't dangle heaps of RSUs possibly do to compete? I would gladly accept a lower overall-career comp at a smaller tech company to work on something I personally had a ton of interest in. Those places are few and far between and don't want to hire me anymore than FAANG does. In fact, FAANG would probably be easier.
• hellisothers 5y ago
  “I’ve been a software engineer about 5 years. […] I’ve been with a startup about 3.5 years, have taken over Product Management, and I manage other engineers who work on customer-facing projects. … At Robin’s level of experience, they’d be mid-career or senior-level at most larger companies – so that would be something like an L4-L5 at Google, ICT3-ICT4 at Apple” 5 years of (mostly) engineering work at a startup and you’re saying this is on par with an L5 at Google or L4 at Apple? I find it hard to take anything else in the article seriously after that
  • loeg 5y ago
    The article doesn't make the claim that you're refuting (i.e., this is a straw man). From your pull quote: > something like an L4-L5 at Google, ICT3-ICT4 at Apple
• throwaway19170 5y ago
  So there are all these people in these threads who are like "I only make $175K/200K/150K, I feel like I'm grossly underpaid when I read these things." I got you all beat. I have 15+ experience. I am a really good coder. I can be very not humble because this is a throwaway, but everyone who has ever worked with me or gone to school with me or worked on open source with me would agree, I am very good at designing and writing and maintaining software, including understanding what software should be written, let's just accept that for the sake of discussion. I only make around $90K. Now, I work in the non-profit/academic sector, and have my whole career. That's what I wanted to do, and I make more than most people in my social circles even at $90K, but the work is getting old, it's not actually that "meaningful" in the end, and especially when people keep saying that I could be making literally 4-5x what I'm making. I also these days mostly only know ruby and Rails (but that's not un-marketable right? And I certainly can learn other things, I have before. And I know ruby really well). People here are like "Sure, but don't you want good work/life balance, maybe $175K is just fine for that." Yes, and $175K would be a fortune to me! I literally don't understand how I get into that market. Because I have worked in academic/non-profit industry my whole career. (which I don't know if that leaves me out now. And I'm in my mid-40s, does that doom me?). I know how to get more jobs in the industries I'm in at about what I'm already getting paid, and have several times... But I don't understand even the first step to this world where $175K is considered low-paying. I believe I have the engineering skills of anyone at that level. I don't know how to get into it. Help me out?
  • nikon 5y ago
    Rails isn't dead and can demand high salaries.
  • saagarjha 5y ago
    Where do you live, and where have you been looking for work? Try applying to some companies that specifically do software.
  • rokob 5y ago
    If you know Ruby really well you might want to look at Stripe. You might be able to just apply and get an interview and see where it goes.
• black_13 5y ago
  The compensation I am hoping for is I am actually coding and not going to meetings and not spend time with people drink Jeff Sutherland flavored cool-aide
• throwaway80525 5y ago
  I'm currently working as an architect, equally skilled in coding, design, and communication, making around 225k TC remote, for 4 days a week, which I scored from being here for a while. 25 years experience. Are people in their 40s and 50s able get these higher paying jobs? Is it possible to negotiate working 4 days a week instead of 5?
  • hintymad 5y ago
    Yes, and the most important thing is getting equity. Plus, good companies will pay probably more than 225K cash a year plus a ton of equity.
• tunesmith 5y ago
  Can someone describe what a Staff+ is and how it compares to architect? I think I know but my employer doesn't have that position, or an IC track - it seems that everyone is an engineer, architect, or manager, and a few years ago anyway it seemed like Architect was the senior position to aim for if you didn't want to be a manager. I'm an architect now but I don't code as much and I suspect I could add more value if I did more self-directed coding.
  • Umofomia 5y ago
    https://staffeng.com/ https://staffeng.com/ is a great resource on this. It describes Architect as one of the possible archetypes[1] of staff engineers, though staff engineers can take on other responsibilities as well. It's possible that the Architect track in your company is just simply their name for this role. [1] https://staffeng.com/guides/staff-archetypes https://staffeng.com/guides/staff-archetypes
• mkhpalm 5y ago
  If you're offering fabulous compensation packages that exceed the President of the United States for common software engineers with a little experience... wouldn't you want to use that to your advantage in your job postings? Every time I read an article like this I go looking for official numbers to validate what is being said. I'm not saying companies compensate poorly in SV. I just find it difficult to differentiate fact from fiction (or gossip) when I go looking into it. Its really not that hard to post your price/ranges directly as a company. I've always posted compensation and benefits when I've posted listings. My wife has always posted compensation and benefits when she's posted them. I'm not sure which of us has interviewed or hired more. I've probably interviewed more as a software engineer and she's probably hired more as a clinical director. (nurses, so many nurses... and then doctors!) I'd apply for a lot of positions if people would list compensation ranges in their postings. I just need to know we're somewhere on the same page before focusing my energy on it. Nothing is worse than going through interviews only find out we've wasted each other's time. I've been there, done that, far too many times. It usually results in an offer at the top end of what they're approved for and that is either not enough to leave, or its less than I'm making at a position I'm happy with.
  • lotsofpulp 5y ago
    > If you're offering fabulous compensation packages that exceed the President of the United States for common software engineers with a little experience... wouldn't you want to use that to your advantage in your job postings? The US President earns millions per year in total compensation. You cannot ignore all the post employment benefits, least of all the $200k+ inflation adjusted per year annuity.
  • Jensson 5y ago
    Right, it is a bit dumb that company compensation is so opaque. But these salaries are correct, I read about them online, saw enough people verify they are correct to trust, did the work to get in and got these high numbers. They aren't fake.
  • neckardt 5y ago
    www.levels.fyi will get you a salary range for most companies. Based on my own compensation and that of trusted friends the real numbers are actually a bit higher than what's on levels.fyi right now. (Seattle) When you apply the best thing is to just be clear to the recruiter what you will accept. If you tell them you won't accept less than $200k any good recruiter would tell you whether that's reasonable or not. If they lie to you, please come back to HN and make an angry post about it. You'll get my upvote.
• ggm 5y ago
  The "... in rat models" here is of course, "in the usa" If you aren't in the USA your salary expectations should be significantly different.
• che_secfi 5y ago
  Full disclosure: I work for Secfi (https://www.secfi.com https://www.secfi.com) and we help employees understand and unlock the value of their startup equity. The OP's point of view on equity compensation is quite common and - I believe - in principle a great way to think about an investment that one does not fully understand. However, especially for somewhat later stage startups, a substantial amount of your wealth can be locked up in your equity or option grants! Valuing them at 0 might not be accurate and actually quite risky: you take the full risk of the startup succeeding or not! Secfi offers a financing product for your equity that is non-recourse. It basically works like this: Secfi pays for the exercise of your options and transfers a - sometimes very substantial - part of the value of your equity to you to use as you see fit. For example, you can use the money as a down payment on a house or get that crazy Lamborghini your crypto-millionaire neighbour recently bought, too. :) In exchange, you pay Secfi a small percentage of interest on the amount and a small equity fee if, and only if, the startup succeeds (read: has a successful exit). If the startup fails - and this is crucial - you get to keep all the money and Secfi takes the loss! So, in this scenario, your equity has a much, much greater value than 0! Secfi's website has a lot of information and tools to help visualise and understand the value of startup equity and might be a good way to start learning how it all works. (https://www.secfi.com/academy https://www.secfi.com/academy)
• cambaceres 5y ago
  > Content note: this piece discusses money, quite directly, with specific numbers and examples. Discussions about money can make quite a few people uncomfortable; if that’s you, you might want to skip this post. Is this ironic?
  • jacobian 5y ago
    > Is this ironic? No.
• niq999 5y ago
  I'm in Russia and I make just $5000/year as a full-stack web dev (4+ years). I threatened to leave, and they found 10 more people who work for even less. I tried to get hired outside of my country, but no one bothers to respond.
  • siva7 5y ago
    I am sorry. Hope you’re doing still fine with that salary.
  • SirZimzim 5y ago
    Don't give up.
• smorgusofborg 5y ago
  I half agree with his math on private stock, though some private stock is like having the same access as the ultra rich to underpriced off market stock.. I don't follow the stock grants math at all. AFAIK what is usually given is a mix of low priced and ultra-low priced options vesting over 5 years. One might end up getting 300K a year of profit in vesting options by year 5 but is anyone getting $300k in pure stocks given to them in year one?
• sli 5y ago
  Threads like this kill all hope I have of making a real living if I stay in the tech industry, because I'm stuck in a hole where I need therapy for my social anxiety, ADHD, and depression to maintain the work, but can't afford it due to my wages and can't get my foot in the door anywhere offering the pay and insurance to cover that therapy, which keeps my job prospects dire and leaves me without the ability to afford school. And now that I'm in my mid-30s, that door is about closed forever. Even just 60-75k/yr would be life-changing for me, much less the 300-400k/yr people in this thread are throwing around. I've dedicated my entire life to this industry and working for startups has left me with nothing to show for it except for drowning in mental health issues from the abuse suffered at the hands of terrible clients and bosses and my lack of any kind of support network, something I struggle build at my level of anxiety and don't get from family. At what point do I throw in the towel and just take some shitty minimum wage job?
• jhugg 5y ago
  Two things that jumped out at me: 1. It’s 2021. You can get a remote job for a big company that pays 10-15% less in Akron, not 40%. If you don’t want to work remote, you can still use BA remote salaries as leverage for local negotiations. 2. What “ggregoire” said: Engineers vary in quality EVERYWHERE. Many people holding onto CTO-type jobs in Akron or in BA startups can’t always move laterally. The salaries for everyone are rising in 2021, but for the truly strong (or for those who can nail an interview) they are rising even faster.
• stakkur 5y ago
  I’d honestly like to see a concrete definition of ‘tech work’. This kind of (somewhat arbitrary) data is so problematic.